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9.1.2007

Leftist Finnish newspaper publishes letter defending Nazi holocaust

Tags: Uncategorized — Author: @ 12:01 pm

When defending freedom of speech, it’s near impossible to defend the free speech rights to the wackos below, but in order to live in a free society, you must…

In a somewhat unusual court case, the Porvoo District Court on Monday fined representatives of two newspapers, the leftist Kansan Uutiset [the Left Alliance political party's official paper] and the regional publication Uusimaa for incitement of ethnic hatred.

Both papers published a letter to the editor concerning events in the Middle East, which prosecutors say defamed the Jews. The managing editor of Uusimaa was fined for incitement against an ethnic group, while an editor of Kansan Uutiset was fined with neglecting his monitoring duties.

The writer, who had defended the Nazi holocaust in the letter, was also fined for incitement against an ethnic group. The prosecutor in the case said that the article constituted veiled incitement in favour of violence against an ethnic group. The writer had submitted the letter to a number of newspapers. It was published in the two newspapers last summer.

In a truly free society, the situation might work something like this – A newspaper publishes an article defending the holocaust, other media outlets report on this, the citizens are outraged and a group puts together a website, www.boycottkansanuutiset.fi – People stop buying the newspaper, businesses stop advertising in it, the newspaper goes bankrupt. A non-violent boycott, the will of the people, no politicians or state officials need be involved.

But instead in today’s less free society, the group who put together the website could get fined by the state or sued by the newspaper. Freedom of speech works both ways – newspapers have the crazy right to publish articles defending the holocaust, and citizens have a right to encourage others to boycott the newspaper – it’s a beautiful system.

  • http://finnsense.blogspot.com finnsense

    Yeah it’s a beautiful system if it would work. If you get a society in which people are not racist but are somewhat indifferent to the feelings of minority groups this might not be how it works. What might happen is that the letter is published and not much happens except that there is another bit of fuel for racists.

    You could make the same argument you have made about defamation of character. Newspapers could lie with impunity and it would be up to the people and not the state to uncover the lies and boycott the newspaper. Except that it would never happen.

    I agree we must guard freedom of speech but the incitement to racial hatred laws are there only for very specific and serious circumstances. I think they are quite sensible.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    The internet is full of racist garbage, these laws do nothing to stop the flow of hatred into people’s houses.

    Does anyone know how much these people were fined? My guess is that it was tiny, a light slap on the wrist, nothing that would prevent them from doing this again.

  • prince of dorkness

    Incitement to violence is a crime in most places. (Holocaust denial per se should not be; people have the right to be wrong and to advocate obviously false and stupid things.) Any paper dumb enough not to check what they print deserves a fine. It would be unreasonable to hold Phil responsible for other peoples’ posts here, but a paper is supposed to have staff who know what goes in the published version. And the problem with Phil’s idea that a popular boycott would work better is that the majority might not care about this thing at all. I would not bother boycotting a paper because of something like this – although if there was non-trivial antisemitism here I might.

  • N. Siinistö

    As quite often happens, your headline is misleading. It wasn’t an article, it was an letter to the editor. And while Kansan Uutiset is indeed “leftist” (=socialist), Uusimaa is quite the contrary.

  • http://www.pasi.fi/ Pasi

    Ha, you posted a domain address that doesn’t exist! Now if you were Conan, you’d have to buy that domain. ;)

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    Incitement to violence is a crime in most places.

    So I guess everyone who publicly supports war should be thrown in jail. All Americans who support the Iraq war should goto jail. All Finns who support military action in WWII should be sent to prison as well.

    Any paper dumb enough not to check what they print deserves a fine.

    I’m sure they didn’t have any problem with it at the time.

    I would not bother boycotting a paper because of something like this – although if there was non-trivial antisemitism here I might.

    Even a small boycott would be more harmful to this newspaper than the punishment Porvoo court laid on them. You may not boycott them cause they only did it once, but if they continue, I’m sure you would boycott it, and so would alot of others.

  • prince of dorkness

    @2,
    I think they will not do this again in a hurry; this was a letter to the editor that some kook mailed to every paper he could think of and these two were the ones careless enough to print it. The bad publicity the papers got from this sentence will make them (and others) more careful in the future. This would not be the effect if the paper in question was in the hate business, of course. A White Power hate sheet would wear a sentece like this as a badge of honour. Don’t know if they still exist or if they’ve all moved into the Net.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    Ha, you posted a domain address that doesn’t exist! Now if you were Conan, you’d have to buy that domain.

    Horny Manatee!! :-D

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    The bad publicity the papers got from this sentence will make them (and others) more careful in the future.

    Right, it was the bad publicity and not the fine that will make them more careful.

    A White Power hate sheet would wear a sentece like this as a badge of honour.

    And have a readership of like, 10 subscribers.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    As quite often happens, your headline is misleading.

    Good point, I’ll change it.

    It wasn’t an article, it was an letter to the editor. And while Kansan Uutiset is indeed “leftist” (=socialist), Uusimaa is quite the contrary.

    Strange how both YLE & STT mentioned Kansan Uutiset as leftist, but mentioned nothing of Uuusima.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    From YLE, “The writer, [...] defended the Nazi holocaust [...] the article constituted veiled incitement in favour of violence against an ethnic group.”

    I guess there are two issues here: One is defending the holocaust; the other is incitement to violence. Defending the holocaust should be considered Free Speech. But if there was true incitement to violence, then maybe it shouldn’t be permitted. It would be the same as letting an Imam in Europe issue calls to bomb European interests. Hard to say if there was true incitement, without actually reading the article.

    Incidentally, in Germany and Austria, it’s still illegal to deny or defend the holocaust. The outdated laws are quite ridiculous and used mostly to serve political interests.

    In the US, most Free Speech is ok, but I don’t think incitement to violence is permissible. Unless, of course, the government sponsors it.

  • http://www.iesaf.fi Karhu

    This has just appeared in the International Hesa.

    “The deputy editor of Uusimaa, who authorised the publication of the letter in his newspaper, was fined EUR 1,050, and the writer was fined EUR 570.
    The writer said that he cannot afford to pay the fine, and will do jail time instead.

    Kansan Uutiset originally decided against printing the letter, but the piece ended up in the newspaper due to a clerical error. The editor-in-chief was fined EUR 400 for neglecting his obligations as editor. “

  • The Swede

    Hollycaust or Holowood?
    We all know some 62 million people died in WW2, mostly chinese and russians, 1-3 million jews died!
    It was a bad war!

  • european

    #13,

    I am sure that if you were in Germany, you can’t escape the prison.

  • http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/ mjr

    Phil, tell me again, why personal defamation is not protected by freedom of speech? Will that omission make the freedom of speech also less than “perfect”.

  • JG

    In an ideal world, I think I would agree with Phil’s idea of how a society could function in this regard. But unfortunately, being realistic, I don’t think such a situation would ever arise… humans being humans. I think it is sensible that there are safeguards on freespeech so that people can not abuse it. It is a right, but a right that also carries some duties.

    Incidentally, the Sunday edition of Uusimaa (which at least used to come free in Porvoo/BorgÃ¥ when I lived there) was generally only used as an extension to the matt where we kept our shoes by the front door in my house. Not the world’s best newspaper in my opinion.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    Phil, tell me again, why personal defamation is not protected by freedom of speech? Will that omission make the freedom of speech also less than “perfect”.

    I don’t think the story above was about personal defamation.

  • http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/ mjr

    No, Phil, it wasn’t – my point was merely an illustration of how we choose not to enforce perfect free speech in certain particular cases because to enforce it would be counterproductive, not sensible (I understand common sense principles might sound strange to a libertarian). So, we can’t make any simplistic black and white arguments about any right: no right exists abstractly as if in a vacuum. Of this particular case I don’t really have an opinion, depends how concrete that incitement to violence was.

  • http://www.tundratabloid.blogspot.com KGS59

    I agree with JG, there must be safegaurds. The thing Phil overlooks, is that genocide/mass murder is preceeded by mass incitement in the media to prepare the public for the intended atrocities. One only has to look at Germany, China, Cambodia and Ruanda to see how the media was subverted to demonize a select group for public ridicule and subjugation.

    These editors went over the line, and their credibility took a major hit.

    As for 13#
    I relegate his blurb into the vast bin filled with other flat earth statements. His post was nothing more than a mean spirited attempt to trivialize the Jewish Holocaust. Over six million Jews were brutally and sadistically murdered by the German National Socialists. That is fact.

  • http://aijoovai.blogspot.com Aijoovai

    A perfectly free system would be as Phil described earlier with the addition that whoever would be pissed about an article could go and kill the person who wrote the text. And the family of the killed writer would be free to go and kill the shooter – and his family to level things out. Now *that* would be a beautiful free system.

    Seriously, when a system is trying to protect the integrity of its citizens before things happen (withouth otherwise oppressing them) I find it difficult to say that it wouldn’t be justified. The results of violence are so often irreversible. This is why the issues need to be addressed before hand.

    Having said the above I need to add that I think that even this kind of quite simple discussion is for the good. It’s always good to think aloud the different perspectives of the use of power. All systems are full of compromises and unless things are discussed people won’t understand what these compromises – the advantages and the disadvantages of the system are.

  • STP

    It is incredible to find hatred against the jews here, since there are barely any Jewish people in Finland. Yet here once again is a proof of it.

    But then again, Borat got a rich american guy (the hunter) to admit that the nazis “had the right idea” (Borat is Persian Jew btw). So it is everywhere.

    I guess it is a statement to the intelligence of the Jewish people.
    Nothing makes people hate you like success.

    Btw, did you guys know that when Hitler was a poor painter, it was a jewish person who helped to hawk of his paintings.. :D

    Shalom ya all!

  • Anonymous

    #20
    “But then again, Borat got a rich american guy (the hunter) to admit that the nazis “had the right idea” (Borat is Persian Jew btw). So it is everywhere”

    “Btw, did you guys know that when Hitler was a poor painter, it was a jewish person who helped to hawk of his paintings.. ”

    Yeah thanks for the newsflash. (sarcasm)

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    STP: “It is incredible to find hatred against the jews here, since there are barely any Jewish people in Finland. Yet here once again is a proof of it.

    I don’t think there are many people in Finland who hate Jews. In fact, you might be surprised to know that most people in Germany don’t hate Jews either. Germany and Israel are major trading partners with each other.

    But, perhaps people everywhere would like to see more balance in the reporting of history. After all, it is not only Jews who suffered during WW2. But that’s how the (American in particular) media and entertainment industry presents it.

    Naturally it is used for political purposes, to advance America’s and Israel’s current-day agenda. And this agenda ensures that atrocities will only be repeated—as we have already witnessed.

    Generally, Jews don’t accept criticism very well. Anyone who speaks against Israel’s actions, is automatically labeled as anti-Jew. I find it to be a gross and perhaps calculated mischaracterization.

    According to my observations, even in the more egregious cases of apparent anti-Jewishness, those accused are at most overcompensating to achieve historical balance. Only a very small percentage of the accused, harbor true hatred.

  • Unit

    “But, perhaps people everywhere would like to see more balance in the reporting of history. After all, it is not only Jews who suffered during WW2. But that’s how the (American in particular) media and entertainment industry presents it.”

    Kind sir, only the most recent wholesale slaughter of Jews was the Holocaust. However, no other ethinic or religious group has ever been persecuted throughout history as much as the Jewish people.
    When you think of the word pogrom, what ethnic group comes to mind.

    “don’t think there are many people in Finland who hate Jews. In fact, you might be surprised to know that most people in Germany don’t hate Jews either. Germany and Israel are major trading partners with each other.”

    Strange, many times I have run into anti-semetic comments/remarks when talking with Finnish people. Often times these folks disguise it in their “concern” about the Israel/Palestine issue. It is a thinly veiled disguse though.

  • Unit

    “Hollycaust or Holowood?
    We all know some 62 million people died in WW2, mostly chinese and russians, 1-3 million jews died!
    It was a bad war!

    Comment by The Swede ”

    People make comments like this all the time and nobody blinks. This statement is dripping with anti-semitism, and whenever anything to do with Israel/Jews is posted on this blog, you run into several similar statements.

    BTW- Those Russians and Chinese were collateral damage, they were not hunted down and systematically exterminated via Auschwitz-Birkenau type camps

  • http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/ mjr

    Yeah, it is disgusting – I suppose Phil won’t ban anyone from commenting due to his strange libertarian principles, but it is tiring to see this crap on these threads.

  • Anonymous

    “BTW- Those Russians and Chinese were collateral damage, they were not hunted down and systematically exterminated via Auschwitz-Birkenau type camps”

    Yeah sure. (sarcasm)
    Reed ‘em boks , or perhaps you only enjoy learning history through Hollywood movies.

  • The Swede

    62 million people died, chinese and russians are people, germans are people, polacks are people, but neither of them exploit their dead relatives like the jews do, it’s the holocaust industry, lots of money to be made, Finkelstein (a jew) even wrote a book about it!

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Unit:
    Kind sir, only the most recent wholesale slaughter of Jews was the Holocaust. However, no other ethinic or religious group has ever been persecuted throughout history as much as the Jewish people.

    This is simply incorrect. The reason you don’t know about the persecution of Roma people (the only true Aryans here!) in Europe is probably because no Hollywood movies are made about it.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    Yeah, it is disgusting – I suppose Phil won’t ban anyone from commenting due to his strange libertarian principles, but it is tiring to see this crap on these threads.

    Who knows, I could get fined one day by the Finnish state for not monitoring my comment section well enough!

  • Turjake

    AFAIK, the letter in question was published during the Israel-Lebanon war, and the writer said that had the Nazis managed to kill all Jews, there wouldn’t be a war in Lebanon. I think the verdict was correct, and the bad publicity that Kansan Uutiset and Uusimaa have received over it will prevent them from publishing similar letters in the future, as they don’t want to be branded Neo-Nazi rags.

    Strange, many times I have run into anti-semetic comments/remarks when talking with Finnish people. Often times these folks disguise it in their “concern” about the Israel/Palestine issue. It is a thinly veiled disguse though.

    There has never been much actual anti-Semitism in Finland, but critical attitudes to Israel’s policies are common here. But such attitudes are common everywhere, not least in Israel and among the Jewish diaspora.

    Some people have a tendency to equate any criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. If we applied similar criteria to this blog, it would be clear that Phil is a racist who hates the Finnish people as an ethnic group. After all, he is constantly criticising the policies of the Finnish government and the actions of individual Finns. Many commenters disagree with him and get angry with his assertions, yet I don’t think anyone believes that Phil’s positions stem from any hatred of the Finns.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Unit: “….no other ethinic or religious group has ever been persecuted throughout history as much as the Jewish people.

    Jews have been persecuted for nearly 1000-years in Europe. During the time of religious-based monarchies, their loyalty always came into question. It was an unfortunate time for them.

    Of course, religious-based waring and pillaging was common throughout history. Jews probably suffered the least damage overall.

    In more recent times, I believe Stalin’s ethnically-based murder campaign was far worse than Hitler’s. Unfortunately, his target-groups didn’t have a voice afterwards, due to the Iron Curtain.

    Also, few members hold positions of power in the United States. Nor do they occupy a strategically-located- and politically relevant geographic territory in the Middle East.

    When you think of the word pogrom, what ethnic group comes to mind.

    I believe Pogrom is a Russian word. Stalin also killed Jews.

    Strange, many times I have run into anti-semetic comments/remarks when talking with Finnish people.

    Strange, because I haven’t. Must be a new thing. But then again, most of the world isn’t especially pleased about bloodthirsty Sharon’s latest American-supported military ventures. Even a large part of the US population is sickened by it. Should Finns have a different opinion?

  • winter

    Why do we even care about some words in a left wing newspaper.

    We need to investigate things like this:

    “Dead Meat is a 25 minute short film which shows the reality of health care under Canada’s socialized medical system: Canadians wait … and wait … and wait. … And sometimes they die while waiting for free government health care.”

    link here: on the fense

  • A.

    Phil,

    It’s just because you haven’t lived all your life in Europe and don’t really feel certain – subtleties (I don’t mean it in a bad way!!).

    WW2 started in Europe. I know USA took part in it (and helped to end it!), but it was started here by Germany (so did the First World War). As racist IDEAS (which at first were ONLY IDEAS, and ideas should be protected by the freedom of speech, right?) led to terrible cruelty and manslaughter that went on for a few YEARS, in many countries, it is understandable that the authorities of many/most European countries try to nip any racist activity in the bud. Especially when it’s antisemitism, as it’s the Jews who Hitler considered “the lowest race”, good only for extermination.

    I know the scale may not be quite the same but I would compare it to the issue of African Americans in the States. I have heard from many people living there that if you annoy an African American, you can easily get accused of racial discrimination, isn’t that so? Racial discrimination when related to African Americans is a terribly sensitive issue in the States because you had slavery. In Europe, we had WW2.

  • A.

    To Unit and Kristian (23, 31): “pogrom” is a Polish word.

    To The Swede (27): Sweden -> Swedes, Poland -> Poles. “Polack” is considered an offensive word.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    I know the scale may not be quite the same but I would compare it to the issue of African Americans in the States. I have heard from many people living there that if you annoy an African American, you can easily get accused of racial discrimination, isn’t that so?

    Yes, if that article would have been published in a US newspaper and instead was about blacks, you better leave town and never come back.

  • http://www.tundratabloid.blogspot.com KGS59

    #23 Kristian:
    Generally, Jews don’t accept criticism very well. Anyone who speaks against Israel’s actions, is automatically labeled as anti-Jew. I find it to be a gross and perhaps calculated mischaracterization”

    That is a false statement, which builds a strawman in order to knock it down. Constructive criticism of Israeli policy is not anti-Semitism but its demonization most certainly is. Israel has many supporters within the Jewish communities, as well as its harsh critics, what crosses over the line of reasonable debate into vitriolic anti-Semitism, is the gross mischaracterization of Jews behaving according to ancient Christian myths and stereotypes.

    Kristian from Espoo in 32#, speaks of a “blood thirsty Sharon” which in itself is both blatantly false and harkens back to a time when Christians believed Jews used Christian blood in making “Matzah.”

    The anti-Semitic cartoon of Sharon eating the head of palestinian baby comes to mind, with the same emphasis and meaning. If anything deserves the title of blood thirsty, it is the policies of Iran/Syria/Hamas/Hezbollah/Sudanese government and Iraqi terrorists, not the government of Israel that uses force in order to defend its own citizens.

    Israel has its warts to be sure, but you would be hard pressed to find any other state that has battled a foe for as long as Israel has, and has acted in a more moral way.

    Kind of ironic but predictable, people explaining just how anti anti-Semitism they are, then resort to using old bigoted canards and falsehoods. No Kristian, Jews are not over sensative to people with reasonable and valid criticisms towards Israel. Jews are only low on tolerance towards those people (Jew and Gentile alike) who make up stories about Israel and Jews, in order to demonize them in public debate.

  • http://www.tundratabloid.blogspot.com KGS59

    OBTW, Finklestein is a self loathing Jew who has been debunked on a number of occassions. His works are taken as seriously as Noam Chomsky’s non-linguistic works, meaning not at all.

  • http://www.iesaf.fi Karhu

    “Who knows, I could get fined one day by the Finnish state for not monitoring my comment section well enough!

    Comment by Phil — Tue, Jan 9th, 2007 @ 11:06 pm ”

    Ummm…so how are you going to prevent that “probabilty”..?
    Sooner or later some hot head is is going to take real offence and send a copy paste and/or link to one of Hank’s flower hated Aunties, who will have enough spare cash to finanace some legal action.
    Do we need to start a “Pay Phils fine” collection.?

  • Unit

    “Racial discrimination when related to African Americans is a terribly sensitive issue in the States because you had slavery. In Europe, we had WW2.”

    That is a semi-accurate comparison. But, I would never try to minimize the historical impact that slavery had on Black people in America. You won’t find me(or many other Americans) saying “Blacks are not the only race to be enslaved, get over it.” or ” Actually, there were more Russian serfs than black slaves, and they don’t complain about it”

    Europe has a huge stain on its collective conscience, and the response of some (like Swede) is to try to minimize the depths of the depravity in which it sunk.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    A: “To Unit and Kristian (23, 31): “pogrom” is a Polish word.”

    According to this, it’s Russian.

    http://www.webster.com/dictionary/pogrom
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pogrom

    But, Russian and Polish are similar. So, whatever.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    KGS59: “Constructive criticism of Israeli policy is not anti-Semitism but its demonization most certainly is. Israel has many supporters within the Jewish communities, as well as its harsh critics, what crosses over the line of reasonable debate into vitriolic anti-Semitism, is the gross mischaracterization of Jews….

    Yes, of course Israel has “many supporters within the Jewish communities.” But, when any non-Jewish person announces that they don’t want their tax money supporting—e.g.—Israel’s massacres of its neighbors, then suddenly they are accused of anti-Semitism or demonization. It happens time and time again. In fact, most people in the world see it as a big factor in America’s political process.

    KGS59: “Kristian from Espoo in 32#, speaks of a “blood thirsty Sharon” which in itself is both blatantly false and harkens back to a time when Christians believed Jews used Christian blood in making “Matzah.”

    Kristian from Espoo couldn’t care less about “blood in making ‘Matzahs” or any other ancient stereotypes. Sharon’s current-day, heavy-handed actions speak for themselves.

    KGS59: “If anything deserves the title of blood thirsty, it is the policies of Iran/Syria/Hamas/Hezbollah/Sudanese government and Iraqi terrorists, not the government of Israel that uses force in order to defend its own citizens.

    Perhaps those elements are also to blame. But, I don’t support Sharon’s mass bombing of—e.g.—Lebanese civilians. Very clearly, that crossed the line and only created more violence and danger to Israel.

    Obviously, it’s a calculated risk, and there’s a political and strategic purpose behind it; it’s not just simple ‘retaliation’ or ‘defense.’ There’s a bigger-picture view, with money, resources and control involved.

    It parallels America’s actions in Iraq.

    KGS59: “No Kristian, Jews are not over sensative to people with reasonable and valid criticisms towards Israel.

    I’ll concede that the original article’s writer’s alleged statement, “had the Nazis managed to kill all Jews, there wouldn’t be a war in Lebanon” is tasteless and doesn’t belong in a newspaper. It shouldn’t have been printed.

    But, insofar as comments on this thread, there has been nothing but “reasonable and valid criticisms.” Yet there’s already been at least two suggestions that Phil restrict discussion about this topic.

    Phil, my advice is to NEVER invite criticism of Jews or Israel. Even constructive criticism will get you labeled and threatened. I assume praise is OK though.

  • JG

    To nr. 35 “A”, in defence of The Swede in this case, the word polack is not offensive in the Swedish language. It just means someone from Poland.

  • The Swede

    I don’t hate jews as an ethnic group, there are many great jews. But I am an anti-zionist, anti-globalist and anti-multiculturist, the last meaning non european cultural mix.
    Zionism aka Neoconservatism has only been harmful to this world, Everybody talks about Israel as the home of the jews, Jews must have a homeland, to this I agree, BUT I also want the palestinians to have a homeland, like they did have in 1947, the zionists doesn’t recognize Palestine as a valid people or State, calling them jordanians etc. This is the root of the conflict.

    On top of it all, Israel occupies Syrian and lebanese territory aswell. With the US blessing, Now we all know who the people of power are in the US, Zionists, whether far right christian lunatics like Pat Robertson and Bush to the jewish elite of PNAC and various key positions in the US power structure!

    Don’t we just know it?

  • Ode

    One thing I dont’s understand in this discourse is, what’s so bad about being anti-semitic? I think many Americans were anti-Russian during the cold war. Many Americans are anti-French today. It is a childish stance, but a valid one. There should be nothing illegal or horrifying about it.

  • http://www.tundratabloid.blogspot.com KGS59

    #44 The Swede: “Zionism (Jewish self determination) has always been bad for the world.”

    What a crock. According to Swede, t’s OK for Arabs or any other national group to seek nationhood/self determination, except for Jews. They’re the ones to be singled out from the rest, and denied what everyone else takes for a granted right.

    I’ll give the Swede a clue, Jewish Zionists are found from both sides of the political/ideological aisle. They’re not just conservative Republicans as you are implying. Israel IS the home of the Jews, its the rest of the world that is determined to see not one Jew set foot inside JUDEA.

    As for the Arabs, there never was a state called Palestine in 47′ they were a part of soutern Syria and northern Egypt. Its been Israelis all along who had excepted the partitioning, not the Arabs, hence the three major wars.

    While it’s a rather “MOOT ARGUMENT”,(Isral has already excepted a Pali state living side by side) but since you brought it up, there never had been a “Palestinian people”, only southern Syrians and Gazan Egyptians.

    There is as much truth in a “Palestinian nationality (before 73), as there is in a “Scandinavian nationality”. Both Palestine and Scandinavia have a number of states living within each perspective regions, but the region “itself” does not constitute a nationality.

    But like I said, it’s a “moot point”, due to the myth becoming an everday fact, since even the Israelis refer to them as “Palestinians”. But the facts speak otherwise.

    Israel has land it obtained from a war not if its choosing, and since UNSC resolution of 242 is not a chapter seven, but a chapter six, automatically deems Israel as not being in violation of international law, any more than Russia is, by being in the Kuril islands (formerly Japan’s). As for Lebanon, your facts are wrong there as well. The UN recognized Israel’s COMPLETE WITHDRAWAL back in 2000 during Ehud Barak’s time in office.

  • Hank W.

    Kristian from Espoo in 32#, speaks of a “blood thirsty Sharon” which in itself is both blatantly false and harkens back to a time when Christians believed Jews used Christian blood in making “Matzah.”

    I don’t think most people even know what ‘matzah’ is over here. Sharon is a ruthless warhawk, just read at his resume – Shabra and Shatila ring a bell? I don’t think he got deposed as the defence minister for being a “peace dove” back then either. So calling him ‘bloodthirsty’ does not have anything to have with some ancient stuff, but quite recent history. Maybe you should realise that first, before you make yourself look like a total dickhead.

    Firstly, there is an insignificant amount of Jews in Finland to have any political weight – considering that lumping all the Jews together as if they would have one political opinion is quite wrong. Most of the pro-Israel crowd in Finland is the mostly conservative christian movements. The ones that arrange “pilgrimages to the holy land” trips. Then again Finland does have a significant amount of Palestinian and lebanese refugees as well as other immigrants and refugees from the middle east. Now again it is not right to lump all the mid-eastern people together as having one political opinion either. However most of the pro-palestinian-cause movements are supported by socialist/ left wing Finns. So at the end of the day if you look at how the socialists are in power you understand a lot of things about the whys and why nots. The vocal pro-Israel guys in Finland are mostly religious kooks, the pro-palestine guys are the ones running the coutry. 2+2=5 when the value of 2 is big.

  • Joniece

    That is not cool i dont care

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