Finland’s Eurobarometer results
The latest Eurobarometer has been released. It shows that Finland is to the extreme top or bottom in many of the survey questions, below are a few of them…
- No one in the EU trusts their own government more than the Finns (64%), yet only 44% of Finns trust the EU (6th lowest in the EU). Only 39% of Finns believes the EU is good for Finland (4th lowest in EU). So Finns loves themselves but are very skeptical of outsiders, this isn’t surprising.
- Finland is known throughout Europe as being rather anti-refugee yet 54% of Finns say that immigrants attribute much to Finnish society (5th highest in EU) - 79% in Sweden. 76% of Finns believe that Finnish government should make decisions on immigration rather than EU (highest in the EU). I think Finns strongly separate “immgrants” from “refugees”.
- Nothing polarizing here but the vast majority of EU citizens believe that “criminals need to be punished more severely as there is too much tolerance nowadays”. The EU average was 85%, Finland was 83%.
- Half of Finns want more equality and justice, even if this means less freedom for the individual (3rd lowest in EU). 50% is a lot but I’m glad to see that we’re the 3rd lowest in the EU. This survey question could show that there already is alot of equality and justice in Finland compared to other EU countries, so there’s less of a need to give up individual freedom. And it’s interesting how “equality and justice” is on the opposite end of the spectrum as “freedom for the individual”.
- 21% of Finns believe religion is too important in society (2nd lowest in EU)
- Only 45% of Finns believe homosexual marriages should be allowed throughout Europe. 44% is EU average, 82% in the Netherlands, 71% in Sweden, and 69% in Denmark. And only 24% of Finns believe homosexuals should be allowed to adopt throughout Europe. 32% is EU average, 69% in the Netherlands, 51% in Sweden, and 44% in Denmark. A shame Finns aren’t more open minded about this, although this survey result could show that Finns don’t like pushing their beliefs onto other countries.
- Now here’s the most disheartening stat from the entire survey - 8% of Finns would legalize cannabis which is the absolute lowest in EU (12% of Finns have admitted to trying cannabis). Compare that to 49% in Netherlands, 26% is EU average, and Sweden is second lowest at 9%.
“- No one in the EU trusts their own government more than the Finns”
In some ways it’s more trust-able than in other countries. For example, in other places one might need to deal with hostile government ‘personalities.’ Finland is a bit more level-headed in that way.
But, I have to say that we Finns have too little confidence in our individual abilities. So, we readily give-up personal freedoms to let government solve problems for us. However, it allows the Finnish government to brainwash us for its Social Control agenda.
For example, our Finnish government publishes the personal financial information ( verotietojen julkistaminen ) of it’s citizens and residents. The whole world—Russia, Somalia, Nigeria, Israel—can see the private financial information of Finnish citizens. It can be accessed via Internet or publications like http://www.veroporssi.com/.
We Finns just accept it as ‘normal’ for government to act against our individual right-to-privacy. People in other countries know this about Finns. It’s kind of embarrassing and makes us look foolish.
Another example is how we Finns simply accept that an enormous part of our income should be taxed and channeled through government. Again, we Finns don’t ask questions. Government knows better how to spend our money—better than we ourselves.
Unfortunately, due to the restriction high-taxation places on our economy, it makes everything very expensive—cars, consumer products, etc. And much of Finnish industry is owned by wealthy individual shareholders in low-tax foreign lands—instead of by Finns themselves!
That’s the negative effect of high taxation and Socialism.
“76% of Finns believe that Finnish government should make decisions on immigration…”
I agree. For the most part, I’m pro-EU. But, I don’t support EU forcing immigrants on Finland or any other country.
“Only 45% of Finns believe homosexual marriages should be allowed throughout Europe.”
Yeah, we’re not real gay here yet, but we’re catching-up
“8% of Finns would legalize cannabis….”
I imagine it’s difficult to roll a joint when you’re lying on the floor, puking and drunk. So the question is mute
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
Yes it is a tragedy that more Finns do not think cannabis should be legalised. Finland needs more people getting stoned because at the moment the drunk people have the monopoly. Some people might say that it doesn’t matter because at least a lot of Finns are off their head a lot of the time but I think this is wrong. A functioning and successful society cannot rely on people being irresponsible in only one way. We need not just mindless hedonism but different forms of mindless hedonism. Without this, how can we possibly maximise the potential for Finns to become addicted to substances and commit crime as a result.
Seriously though Phil, it’s all very well to care about individual liberty but in the case of cannabis there really is no sense in legalising it here. This is one of the last countries on Earth where the drug situation is reasonably under control and in every other country, the percentage of crimes related to drugs is very high. Legalising cannabis would certainly remove some of the stigma around it in Finland and lead to an increase in its use. That cannot be a good thing for the society as a whole. In the US and UK it’s too late. There is a massive problem and legalisation might help manage it but in Finland the problem is contained. Why make it worse?
Comment by Finnsense — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
Oh come on. If 12% of the population have tried cannabis, it’ll have to be a very large percentage of the under 30 year olds (just can’t picture the vanhainkoti folks lighting up). Yes, we might see an increase in cannabis use after legalization, but so what? Everybody knows it don’t go too well with the old alc. And I’d rather see more potheads and less vicious drunks out there. And just like with alcohol, there’s always going to be the real abusers of the substance who don’t give a flying fuck whether its expensive, illegal, or both. And these people keep the illicit drug market running. I can’t think of one reason why smoking pot should finance criminals instead of society (although Phil undoubtedly would make weed tax-free!), because one way or the other, it is going to be smoked. And don’t even get me started on this new law against even THINKING about growing pot in your home, it’s just plain stupid! If anything, homegrowing should really be advocated even by those who’re against drugs in all forms, as it really might downsize those drug dealers who’re pushing (imported) amphetamines and other serious badass shit on the streets, and killing young people with it. The time for this 70s drug policy is over, it’s time to get real.
Comment by aet75 — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 4:01 pm
Without this, how can we possibly maximise the potential for Finns to become addicted to substances and commit crime as a result.
Uhh…how exactly does smoking alot of pot encourage you to commit crimes??
Legalising cannabis would certainly remove some of the stigma around it in Finland and lead to an increase in its use.
Good. A lot of alcoholics will use less of the more dangerous drug, alcohol, and switch to a much less dangerous drug, marijuana. It’s not only less dangerous for yourself, you’re then much less dangerous towards others (violent behavior, getting behind the wheel).
Why make it worse?
It will only make the situation much much better in Finland - for crime, alcoholism, violent behavior (do daddies beat their wives and kiddies when they’re drunk or high?), and my favorite…freedom!
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 4:01 pm
I do not find it strange at all that cannabis has very little support here in Finland. Cannabis has no “tradition” here and the use is very small, so there is only very few people who are even interested in it. The normal drug education pretty much puts cannabis along every other drug, so it’s not really viewed in any special way.
With only 12% even admitting to trying it, and only 8% supporting legalization, it pretty much shows that Cannabis is not an issue here, so I don’t really understand why would we need to make a big deal about it. No reason to legalize it, since it wouldn’t be any use.
Comment by Rithiur — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
although Phil undoubtedly would make weed tax-free!
At least people should be able to grow it in their homes.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
I have to agree with Phil entirely on that one. We could only hope that some Finns choose weed instead of alcohol—even a combination of both would be good, if it reduces alcohol consumption. It’d be much cheaper for our ( KELA ) medical system. Alcohol is a killer.
By the way Phil, you might want to plant (no pun intended, really!) some finnish words in your text, so your blog gets found more easily by search engines. I did it in post #1 and here too. It’ll probably show-up in google within a few hours or days, after the crawler harvests it. Also, you mentioned EU Barometer; it’s actually called the Eurobarometer. Both key-terms are good, but only using the first one limits your exposure.
Just some suggestions. Hopefully they are helpful
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
“I do not find it strange at all that cannabis has very little support here in Finland.”
Actually, the difference is that other European lands were relatively liberal in the 1970’s and 1980’s. Recreational substances like marijuana were far more widespread. People of that generation are now 40-, 50- and even 60-years-old. Many of them probably responded to the survey.
However, during that timeperiod, Finland was still bracing itself against the Soviet Union. There was a large amount of head-in-the-ass cultural isolation, and Finns didn’t experiment with anything other than drinking themselves to death.
But, that’s not true anymore. Sure, many in Finland still drink themselves to death, but young Finns are no different than those in the rest of Europe. And they have equal access to recreational substances, such as marijuana. In fact, it’s more popular than you might think!
In my opinion, it’s now a good time for Finland to take a progressive and mature approach, by embracing the opportunity to switch from destructive heavy-drinking to something a bit milder
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
I cant understand why anyone would want to legalize more drugs in public use. That is completely wrong way.
It seems that the life as it is means nothing anymore for some of us.. Maybe a clear month would open your eyes enough to see, that life is worth living without any kind of drugs, like alcohol.
Comment by xD — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 5:05 pm
The opiate of the masses is religion,causing death and destruction,during mans’ history.Religion is the ultimate drug of the mind that will ultimately vaporize us all…
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
Prohibition does not work that well in most conditions: if the demand stays stable but supply is restricted, it just raises prices and makes production more lucrative and eventually supply will get higher again. You can’t basically win, as has been the experience in most countries, especially the US. Finland might be a special case but even here organized crime gets nice capital (and a good amount of foot soldiers) out of it. This is not to say that substance abuse would be a good thing, on the whole it isn’t, just that in some things it’s not sensible to encourage crime and supply it with big capital inflows with irrational blanket prohibition. It is not the churches that would be most vehemently opposed to legalization but professional criminals. As said, in Finland it still works, if barely for the mild stuff, but it is only a question of time when it stops working.
Comment by mjr — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 6:49 pm
“Finns didn’t experiment with anything other than drinking themselves to death.”
Noo, didn’t our rising student intelligentsiya smoke that old student house advertisement board (made of cork) in the 70’s, as it was sold them as hash in the city passage.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
Phil smokes pot?! Well now I’m glad we have yet another thing in common. I’m amazed at how intolerant people are of pot. I bet those people never had the pleasure of enjoying a brownie laced with weed.
Comment by Stefan Constantinescu — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 8:03 pm
I don’t think the grow at home idea is a good one taking a look at what has been going on in Canada. Many are growing way more than is needed for one’s own needs and since pot is now Canada’s #1 crop, they are bringing gymbags full of the stuff to the US and getting arrested, facing serious charges. It is not a demand problem, but more one of oversupply in the home market. It has been such a problem that Canada has stopped further liberalization of pot. How many in Finland would grow pot only for home use? That kind of law is one that is meant to be ubused. After all, why wouldn’t you sell some to your friends?
Finns will not switch from alcohol to pot if it is legalized. History has it that Finns normally add the new item without stopping use of the old one;)
Comment by fred fry — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 8:08 pm
1) Fred wisely points out that people will not replace alcohol use with cannabis use, they will add it.
2) Something like 80% of crime in the UK is connected to alcohol and drug use and only a very small proportion of that is direct (meaning charging users and dealers). Mostly it’s alcohol or drug related violence and thefts for drug money.
My point is this: I don’t think cannabis is worse than alcohol and I don’t think it’s immoral and I even think that many people can use it without adverse effects (just as many people can drink sensibly). BUT - none of this detracts from the argument that on balance promoting recreational drug use of any kind has negative effects on society and should be discouraged or at least not encouraged. Keeping it illegal, pragmatically, is a sensible move.
Comment by Finnsense — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 8:31 pm
“How many in Finland would grow pot only for home use? That kind of law is one that is meant to be ubused. After all, why wouldn’t you sell some to your friends?”
Who cares? It’s already being grown for “home use” and being given (or perhaps even sold) to friends. There’s no shortage of supply in Finland.
However, like in the USA, part of that supply comes from the outside. For this reason, there should be a balance; each country should produce enough to meet its own demand.
It would effectively cut-out the profit margin of traffickers and criminal gangs. No need to transport anything across borders……..unless of course there’s a trade conference for growers or some type of special festival.
By the way, I’ve spoken to people in the Finnish medical community—doctors, in particular—who have favorable personal views toward the liberalization and recreational usage of marijuana, etc. What I posted above, about diverting people away from alcohol, simply echoes their opinions.
It’s quite common for doctors in Europe to favor liberalization. The fact that Finnish docs are like-opinioned just shows that Finns are adopting Europe-wide norms.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 8:44 pm
Phil smokes pot?! Well now I’m glad we have yet another thing in common.
Nope, I don’t smoke pot, but I do support the legalization of it. There’s a lot of things I don’t do that I support the legalization of - drugs, hookers, abortions, gay marriage.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 9:21 pm
After all, why wouldn’t you sell some to your friends?
How often do friends sell homegrown plants to their friends right now? Never, cause they’re easy to grow yourself, or you can just goto the store yourself.
Finns will not switch from alcohol to pot if it is legalized. History has it that Finns normally add the new item without stopping use of the old one
Some will definitely switching, others may alternate, and others may combine the two - a stoned drunkard is much more tolerable than just a drunkard.
The legalization of marijuana would work wonders on this country. But Finland will never do it until others do. If Sweden legalizes it, we will two years later, unfortunately Swedes are against pot almost as much as Finns are.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 9:26 pm
1) Fred wisely points out that people will not replace alcohol use with cannabis use, they will add it.
Some will, and if they do, they’ll wind up drinking alot less that evening, which is a very good thing for themselves and others.
2) Something like 80% of crime in the UK is connected to alcohol and drug use and only a very small proportion of that is direct (meaning charging users and dealers). Mostly it’s alcohol or drug related violence and thefts for drug money.
No doubt that vast vast majority of that is alcohol related, especially violent crimes.
I even think that many people can use it without adverse effects
Regular, long-term usage is not good for yourself, but won’t affect others.
BUT - none of this detracts from the argument that on balance promoting recreational drug use of any kind has negative effects on society and should be discouraged or at least not encouraged. Keeping it illegal, pragmatically, is a sensible move.
First off, legalizing something is NOT the same as “promoting” it. Second, what “negative effects on society” would it have? (I can’t think of any) And, if you do believe there are negative effects, would the positives outweigh these negatives?
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 9:32 pm
All potheads ain’t that mellow. I’ve had my share of cannabis related violence so you can’t use that as an argument.
Why add more intoxicants as legal when you have issues already with the old ones and should do something about them.
Why can’t people just stay clearheaded and sober?
Comment by Plasma — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 9:54 pm
I would say that this is a no-brainer - a situation where market really rules: any war on supply will just make supply more lucrative and increase the profit margin of the criminals, thus, eventually the production. The basic problem is in demand and I would suspect that this stays pretty stable in most conditions (outside really insane sociaties like Stalin’s and Hitler’s - or modern Saudi-Arabia). In Finland the criminalization (which to me always reads like the increase of crime…) still works as the user base is quite narrow and manageable; it is only a question of time though. In many countries the “war” against milder drugs is already lost, and lost badly, with the only tangible result being increased profits for criminals and increased disrespect of the law. It is a no-brainer but in these matters reason very definitely does not rule.
Comment by mjr — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 10:03 pm
“All potheads ain’t that mellow. I’ve had my share of cannabis related violence so you can’t use that as an argument.”
What, some pothead fell-asleep in the chair next to you and started thrashing his arms?
“Why add more intoxicants as legal when you have issues already with the old ones and should do something about them.”
That’s true. Besides, alcoholics are more fun to watch—especially when you know they’ve developed liver cirrhosis. Why introduce another “intoxicant” that might divert them away from alcoholism?
“Why can’t people just stay clearheaded and sober? ”
Good luck spreading that message. You can start in Helsinki, on almost any night of the week……just watch-out for sidewalk puke and hostile drunks.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 10:13 pm
@22 Kristian
Ye well i know people ain’t going to get sober any day. But your comment on cannabis diverting people from alcoholism is as BS.
Or can you cite that somehow?
Comment by Plasma — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 10:23 pm
Plasma, I can cite it from personal experience. And Phil seems to agree……..
Phil: “[after using marijuana] they’ll wind up drinking alot less that evening, which is a very good thing for themselves and others.”
Very true Phil. By observation, the same intoxication level is achieved with less alcohol. Plus, the urge to sleep seems to outweigh the urge to drink.
In a country like Finland, with a drink-until-death mentality, that’s probably a good thing. And I’m tired of all these excuses to raise alcohol taxes ( alkoholivero ). Due to these futile attempts, we’re laughed-at by the rest of Europe
At some point, we need to accept that people will seek to relax with recreational substances, like alcohol or marijuana. The very least we can do, is to not restrict them to the far more destructive choice of alcohol.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 10:46 pm
hshshshshshsshshshshshsp……….Ppshshsshshshshshshshshshs!
hshshshshshshshshshshshsP………Ppsshshshshshshshshshshshsh!
WHEEEEEeeeee!!……
Hava Merry Wanna Christmas from infinndel in Massachusetts!
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 11:05 pm
You only need one EU country to legalize pot and then Finland can get access to it by the ferries switching flag to that nation, say the Netherlands, and making the drugs available on the ships.
It was funny when I was in the Netherlands when I asked why they don’t sell seeds and mushrooms in the tax-free at the airport, since it’s legal there. Nobody could give me a good answer, but I suspect that the “United Nations Convention against the Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances, 1988″ which includes the requirement:
Cannabis seeds are not covered in the Convention, only plants. Anyway, any attempt to legalize pot is going to have address problems related to UN Convention committments against legalization. (Or is it ok to ignore UN committments concerning pot.)
I am not sure about Finland, but I do not think Americans can handle legalized pot. For the Finns who think it is such a big issue, they can just move to the Netherlands. No need to wait for it to be legalized back home. In Finland, how about making it available by perscription?
It would have been useful to know that percentage of the 12% who have tried pot in Finland think it should be legalized. Since only 8% say yes, then at least 33% of those who tried it think it should not be legalized.
Comment by fred fry — Mon, Dec 25th, 2006 @ 11:47 pm
Fred:
“Or is it ok to inore UN committments concerning pot.”
Yes, these outdated UN commitments should be ignored. Holland, Switzerland and England have laws which probably comply with the UN, but they don’t enforce them. I lived in Holland for a while. The system works fine; people just go into stores and buy weed. Same as buying alcohol at a bar. It’s really a non-issue.
Holland, Switzerland and England all supply heroin to addicts. Germany is looking at the possibilities. We have heroin addicts here in Finland too. At some point, we’ll need to explore those options.
I think smart choices need to be made, instead of following senseless “commitments”, which only cause problems for people.
“…..but I do not think Americans can handle legalized pot.”
Interesting perspective. Marijuana seems very wide-spread in the US. When I worked in the states, my colleagues used marijuana; for example, during weekend bar-b-ques at someone’s house. Seemed like they were able to handle it just fine.
“For the Finns who think it is such a big issue, they can just move to the Netherlands.”
Or they can just continue to use it here in Finland, like they currently do. It just seems silly to complicate their lives unnecessarily. I mean, we’re supposed to be progressive up here in the Nordics. Why should we shatter our image?
“It would have been useful to know that percentage of the 12% who have tried pot in Finland…….”
I’ll bet that percentage is closer to 50% among younger people. It’s not that much different from the rest of Europe—or America for that matter. However, older people in Finland are much more conservative than the Europe average, so the low percentages reflect it.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Dec 26th, 2006 @ 12:59 am
“…..but I do not think Americans can handle legalized pot.â€Â
Now that I think about it, the illegal nature of drugs in America causes violence comparable to some African countries and also high profits for dealers. But, it also causes high profits for the privatized prison industry, at tax-payers’ expense.
The Gulag prison state is alive and well. Can America handle NOT having legalized pot?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Dec 26th, 2006 @ 1:30 am
Pot ain’t bad.
Comment by saempy — Tue, Dec 26th, 2006 @ 5:27 am
As mayor of this altered state of drunkachusetts, I declare this heartburn to be awesome.
Comment by saempy — Tue, Dec 26th, 2006 @ 5:45 am
Phil, your interpretation of the results is flawless, truly.
Trusting our own government, in the least corrupt country in the world - We obviously love ourselves, the egoistic bastards that we are.
Not trusting the EU, a hardly transparent bureaucratic colossus - We are suspicious of outsiders!
Phil, you’ve outdone yourself. Pat yourself on the back, will ya.
Comment by Krisu — Tue, Dec 26th, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
When I say that I don’t think the Us can handle pot, I might be wrong. Pot use in the US is going down. I don’t know anyone who uses it but that might be because of the people I associate with who are trained professionals where a single incident involving alcohol can threaten their job as could a posative drug test.
Even if you legalize pot, you still going to have rules over it’s use. You can’t have cops high on pot, nor airplane pilots, or crane operators, or car & truck drivers. How long do you have to wait between smoking and driving a car to have a clear head? In the US, aircraft crews cannot drink 8 hours before a flight.
Kristian,
If the UN agreement is no longer valid, then you need to either change the Convention, or withdraw from it. Ignoring them just makes the UN that much more useless. I am not sure what you were doing in the US, but pot is not common in all social circles. I have only seen pot twice. Once in high school and once in Germany three years ago. As for the violence, it is limited to cities, and there are other reasons for that problem.
I wonder why people think the pot problem will go away if it is legalized, and that the war on drugs is a failure. Just what might happen if the pot is available in every store or even if they just stop fighting it.
Smoke it if you want. Don’t whine if you get in trouble doing it.
Comment by fred fry — Tue, Dec 26th, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Fred:
“Pot use in the US is going down.”
They’re all doing Ecstasy these days. It’s more trendy. I’ve been curious about it myself, but at my age, I probably shouldn’t experiment with unknown synthetics.
I have a childhood friend who tried it recently. He said he liked it. Maybe I’ll try it someday when I’m feeling particularly adventurous. I don’t normally do that kind of stuff though.
.
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“I don’t know anyone who uses it but that might be because of the people I associate with…”
Usually, people will make innuendos to gauge your level of interest. From that point onward, their candidness depends on your response. If they sense that you are disapproving, then you won’t be invited to the ’special gatherings.’
.
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“Even if you legalize pot, you still going to have rules over it’s use.”
Yeah, like don’t slobber all over the joint when it’s your turn.
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“If the UN agreement is no longer valid, then you need to either change the Convention, or withdraw from it.”
Agreed. It’s been ignored for over 30-years already. Maybe it’s time to ditch it. Society has matured and found better ways.
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“I am not sure what you were doing in the US, but pot is not common in all social circles.”
We all worked within the same company—business professionals, engineers, programmers, etc.
According to my observations, despite the puritan veneer, Americans are quite righteous with the weed consumption!
Even on this side of the pond, it’s kind of surprising to find-out who indulges. I had colleagues in eastern Europe who heard all about it from behind the Iron Curtain, but they didn’t have access.
Now they do, and it’s like they’ve discovered Christmas!
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“I have only seen pot twice. Once in high school and once in Germany three years ago.”
You’re not catching the above-mentioned innuendos. Otherwise, you’d see it more often
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“I wonder why people think the pot problem will go away if it is legalized, and that the war on drugs is a failure.”
The problem isn’t pot. Rather, the problem is that resources could be spent more wisely elsewhere. I mean, America with its “War on Drugs” has the largest prison population in the world. Seems kind of immoral to me.
Instead of chasing after potheads and imprisoning people, couldn’t that money go toward education, instead?
Plus, in my opinion, anything that grows in nature is there for man to use, as he sees fit. I guess that’s just part of my finnish Inuit spirit
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“Just what might happen if the pot is available in every store or even if they just stop fighting it.”
Go to Holland and you will notice that life simply goes-on like before.
Otherwise, kids won’t need to make shady deals in dark parking lots anymore. Dealers won’t need to shoot each other. In ghettos, the rich dealer won’t be the role model anymore; he’ll need to find a job like everyone else. The list goes on….
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“Smoke it if you want. Don’t whine if you get in trouble doing it.”
I don’t normally smoke pot; it’s not part of my lifestyle.
However, on rare occasions I’ll indulge. For example, if Phil were to pass the bong my way, then I’d probably take a few hits. Why shouldn’t I?
It’s actually quite enjoyable. But, it’s not enjoyable enough to do all the time. Too many other important things compete for my attention.
Insofar as its legality, I’m only looking at it from a societal standpoint. It wouldn’t affect me personally.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 12:18 am
Kristian,
I did spend a week in Amsterdam in June. Despite it being legal for sale in stores, I was still hassled on the street with invitations to purchase pot from street ‘vendors’ so legalization did not get rid of the street dealers, who also happened to be dealing ecstasy and surely everything else.
Even though pot is legal in the Netherlands, still half of all drugs-related crime is related to pot. (According to the annual EU drug report.) So perhaps the difference is not legalization but more in the severity of the punishment for breaking the law.
As for innuendos, I am a pretty perceptive fellow. You ask me a question or make a comment I normally think as to reasons why a person asked or said that. So if i have missed any innuendos, they must have been pretty damn obscure;)
I have to say that I was somewhat disappointed by all the backpackers sleeping wherever they pleased in Amsterdam as well as the general dirtiness of the city. It seemed more like an adult ‘Disneyland’ than a serious city. That’s a shame. Nice place to vist. Not sure I would want to live there.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 5:15 am
Enough with the Sweden crap already. Stereotypical categorising after one event hardly makes it something recurrent. It’s like saying every black man is a criminal, which of course, is absurd.
And why do you want to import cannabis? Adults in the U.S spend smoking pot as a holiday pastime, why should it be like that in Finland as well ?
Comment by Keksi — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 9:02 am
Keksi: “And why do you want to import cannabis? Adults in the U.S spend smoking pot as a holiday pastime, why should it be like that in Finland as well ?”
Whether it should or shouldn’t, probably isn’t the question. People decide these things for themselves. Young people in Finland are the same as in the rest of Europe or even America.
And you’re right; importing shouldn’t be necessary. Instead, it should be grown here—at least enough to meet demand.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 11:46 am
True, but I think everyone can see the conundrum, as long as cannabis is illegal, so is growing it
Comment by Keksi — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
Fred:
“I was still hassled on the street with invitations to purchase pot from street ‘vendors’…”
Street dealers try to sell ‘cooking herbs’ and ‘baking powder’ to naive tourists. It’s a ripoff scam, like finnish taxes. However, the dealers only do it around De Wallen, where all the activity lives. Cops chase them away, but they still return during tourist season. Most are Africans; it’s an immigration problem, not really a drug problem.
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“…who also happened to be dealing ecstasy and surely everything else.”
Sure, it would suck if you went to A’dam looking for Ecstasy and couldn’t find it. By the way, X is totally part of the disco scene everywhere in the world. You don’t need to go to A’dam. It’s probably biggest in American.
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“Even though pot is legal in the Netherlands, still half of all drugs-related crime is related to pot.”
How so? Someone steals a bicycle and they happen to find a joint in his pocket, therefore it’s pot-related?
A’dam attracts many young people. When lots of young people congregate, crime is likely.
In my opinion, the A’dam culture should be spread more evenly throughout Europe.
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“So perhaps the difference is not legalization but more in the severity of the punishment for breaking the law.”
Sure, just look at gulag USA, with the highest drug consumption, highest dealer/trafficker profit and highest drug-profit-related violence in the world. I thank God we don’t take such a ridiculous approach here.
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“As for innuendos, I am a pretty perceptive fellow.”
When they hear your talk about severe punishments, they know.
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“I have to say that I was somewhat disappointed by all the backpackers sleeping wherever they pleased in Amsterdam as well as the general dirtiness of the city. It seemed more like an adult ‘Disneyland’ than a serious city. That’s a shame. Nice place to vist. Not sure I would want to live there.”
I think the whole Amsterdam experience somehow escaped you. But, I suppose it’s not for everyone.
Backpackers sleeping, druggies, freaks…… Most people say these are cool things about A’dam—even those who don’t belong in those categories. You’ll see entire Japanese families with kids, giggling and snapping pictures of the scene.
Only the older, more ‘conservative’ Americans don’t get it. They look at it from the US gulag perspective: Niggers belong in ghettos and jails, and everything else stays clean….or at least it looks clean on the surface.
A’dam is a port city. If you read about its history, you discover that it’s always had an open multi-culti flair. People from other cultures brought new ideas. Americans brought the hippy/drug culture during the 60’s, however I’m pretty sure opium existed during the city’s Golden Era too. I think its current essence is very consistent with history.
As for living there, I would love to live in a De Wallen canal house. What a novelty that would be! But, for a quieter lifestyle, sectors like Jordaan are very nice. Living on a house-barge would be the best.
By the way, if you go to the river Ij, you can look across, and know that they used to mount executed prisoners on stakes to dissuade visiting sailors from committing crimes in the city. You see Fred, Amsterdam even has something of interest to you!
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 12:48 pm
@28 who said “the illegal nature of drugs in America causes violence comparable to some African countries”.
You could probably switch that and say that some African countries have violence comparable to the US. Depending on whose figures you use (and what you consider “violent”), the US could be considered one of the most violent countries in the world. I grew up in the Old South where it was not at all unusual to see folks driving around in their pick up trucks with rifles and other weapons prominently displayed.
If the argument that access to drugs & alcohol influences violence behavior, you’d kind of have to agree that the proliferation of (and easy access to) firearms does as well. Come on, everybody, sing it with me: We love guns! We love guns! We love guns!!!
On a different note … I like the (Phil’s) comment about supporting things that we don’t do. I don’t think “support” and “participation” are at all related. Many people don’t do things they support. And, oddly enough — because we’re human & quite irrational — many people *DO* things they *DON’T* support. Like, for example, cheating on a spouse comes to mind. It happens.
Comment by funkybrownchick — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 3:29 pm
- You will have to ask the Dutch Government. The EU does the report each year and it is the Dutch that provide the statistics for their country. So what do the Dutch consider a drug crime?
From the 2006 Report:
- So it seems they consider dealing or trafficing a crime and I am going to guess that at least some of the street dealers do have actual pot.
Take this other gem from the 2006 report:
- Hmmm
The table can be found here. Notice that Finland does not bother to track drug-related offences.
http://stats06.emcdda.europa.eu/en/elements/dlotab06-en.html
- You are assuming that I discuss things as I discuss them here. That would be incorrect. Here the discussion is directed by the blog posts.
- And I was a Merchant Seaman. I am very familiar with port cities and the neighborhoods where they are located in;) (Not to mention the habbits of sailors!)
Annual Report homepage:
http://ar2006.emcdda.europa.eu/en/home-en.html
The report in PDF:
http://ar2006.emcdda.europa.eu/download/ar2006-en.pdf
The report summarizes drug law in the EU and the ongoing changes to it. You want a good idea on the likelyhood of legalization, then you might want to look at Chapters 1-3.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 3:58 pm
Fred:
“- You are assuming that I discuss things as I discuss them here. That would be incorrect. Here the discussion is directed by the blog posts.”
Fred, I picture you as staunchly conservative. So, I don’t think anyone would mistake you for someone who ‘gets high’
That’s fine. There are all types of people on this planet. Those (occasionally) pot-smoking American colleagues I mentioned earlier…. They are staunch Republicans—every single one of them. But, perhaps they are more Libertarian regarding social views.
Regarding Europe….. The trend is toward restricting the trafficking and manufacture of synthetic substances. They can be truly dangerous, because there’re no safeguards.
Pot is mostly handled through education. It’s on the same level as alcohol and tobacco. I really wish they’d prioritize tobacco though; it’s the real culprit.
Very few people are habitual pot-smokers—even in high-availability environments. Many more are alcoholics. But even a greater number are tobacco smokers for life.
It stinks!
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 6:09 pm
Kristian,
I bet you would not picture me as the only one in the room at a government meeting in Washington, DC not wearing a suite & tie.
And don’t worry, I have some very liberal views as well. I would love to see the new Democrat-controlled congress offer US Citizenship to all Mexicans and Canadians who want it. Instead, they will be idiots and just offer it to those who came here illegally.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 6:58 pm
1 Joint and 4 Beer, or 14 beer you tell us which is better for your body, Kela, crime rates etc.. It is proven Tobacco and alcohol are much more addictive than cannabis- many studies show cannabis to be non-addictive. Gay marriage, adoption of children Why Not? to each person his own freedoms as long as your not infringing on your neighbors.
Comment by mumboman — Wed, Dec 27th, 2006 @ 10:51 pm
Pot doesn’t make you smarter or more individual as people seems to believe. It is just another product among others but it has certain image and because of that image people start use it.
Government regulates many other products too. Some are even prohibited. Maybe government could switch from tobacco or alcohol to pot and start collect tax money from it. Anyways amount of available intoxicant products should be regulated. Too much is just too much.
Comment by internetuser — Thu, Dec 28th, 2006 @ 6:02 am
The prevalence of cannabis use in Finland actually varies very much depending on whom / where you ask, i.e. large conurbations have more use than small agrarian localities. Using cannabis is every bit as common here in the greater Helsinki area as it is in the EU in general, w/ some 20% of the population aged 15-64 having tried the stuff at least once in their lifetime (33% in the age bracket 15-30 IIRC). And this according to some official statistics I’ve seen…
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Mon, Jan 1st, 2007 @ 11:14 am
…none of which, BTW, is to mean that using cannabis is a common _country-wide_ habit, however! It definitely isn’t…
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Mon, Jan 1st, 2007 @ 11:19 am