Finland kept quiet and lied about its relationship with Nazi Germany
Swedish journalist Henrik Arnstad’s recent book about the Swedish wartime foreign minister Christian Günther has “opened up a can of worms” here in Finland…
In his book, as well as in two opinion columns written this autumn, Arnstad says that Finland keeps quiet and lies about its relationship with Nazi Germany during the Continuation War between Finland and the Soviet Union from 1941-1944. Arnstad is of the opinion that with its expansion endeavours, Finland eagerly supported Germany’s aggressive war tactics and that Finland carried out ethnic cleansing, for example, by allowing 3,000 Russians to starve to death.
“Finland was the only western democracy that voluntarily joined forces with Nazi Germany”, Arnstad wrote in the Swedish daily Svenska Dagblad last week, and added that Finland is keeping quiet about this.
Arnstad also dismisses the notion that Finland and its armed forces would have protected Sweden. “With their opportunistic and criminal aggressive war tactics the Finnish leaders caused security policy risks to Sweden. The convicted Finnish war criminals, such as Risto Ryti, are to be considered accountable for this.”
[...]“The entire spat has a distinct smell of formaldehyde to it. Both parties are presenting arguments that have not been relevant in the past 20 years”, Jokisipilä concludes, in reference to the fact that Arnstad’s comments are no different from those presented by the left in Finland in the 1960s and 1970s, while Torstila’s response only reinforces the idea of “official Finland” still adhereing to the old “driftwood” theory of the Continuation War.
I’m no history buff by any means, but it seems that both Arnstad and Finnish officials/historians are correct. Yes, Finland had a choice between the two opposing superpowers. Finland didn’t want to be swallowed up again by the Soviet Union. So Finland signed a deal with the devil, and when you do that, a lot of insane things are going to happen.
No need to comment this total ignoramus.
Comment by Kaislis — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
What’s incorrect in his assessment? If you’re gonna team up with the Nazi’s, you’re gonna have to do some horrible shit, then you’re gonna wanna cover it up. It’s not excusable but it’s reality.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 3:40 pm
He seems to conveniently forget that Sweden supplied ore to Nazi Germany during war.
Arnstad also dismisses the notion that Finland and its armed forces would have protected Sweden. “With their opportunistic and criminal aggressive war tactics the Finnish leaders caused security policy risks to Sweden. The convicted Finnish war criminals, such as Risto Ryti, are to be considered accountable for this.â€Â
Now this is utter BS. Without Finland’s alliance with Germany and their help during the Tali-Ihantala battle at 1944, Sweden would’ve had Soviet Union as a neighbour. Talk about security policy risks.
Comment by Passer-by — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 3:48 pm
Swedes should just shut the fuck up with their war profiteering of the WWII (selling happily iron and other metals to the Germans and allowing German troops to travel through Sweden).
They were like northern Switzerland, getting filthy rich while everybody else was busy killing each other. Maybe even money from the accounts of the Jews murdered was illegally transferred to Swedish banks…
Comment by tim73 — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
…”Voluntarily joined forces”…Oh come on, the Swedes voluntarily supplied nazis with ballbearings and steel.
If your communications to west is cut by occupying Denmark and Norway, your agriculture is not producing enough to feed the nation, your great neighbour is shooting down your airliner and begs free hands from former ally to finish the winter war project…Great options indeed.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
What’s incorrect in his assessment?
That “keeps quiet and lies about its relationship” part. You and me were not here then, but I’ve been under impression that my people had pretty much self-whipping during the years of left-wing radicalism and Finlandization, in 60’s and 70’s.
Besides, at least I was taught in school that Finland was driven to join Operation Barbarossa more or less consciously. The concentration camps of Eastern Karelia were mentioned as well.
Nonetheless our army never took part in the siege of Leningrad or tried to blew up the Murmansk railway, even if Germans were urging them to do so. Also the number of Jews who were departed to Third Reich remained very small. So I’d say that in this sense it differed from an actual alliance.
Comment by Aapo — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 3:58 pm
Swedes should just shut the fuck up with their war profiteering of the WWII
Is he claiming that Sweden had no faults during WWII? Or is he just criticizing Finland’s actions?
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:02 pm
This article in SvD has been critisised even here in Sweden for its unfairness towards Finland. Svenska Dagbladet incidentally is the most right-wing of the Swedish daily mainstream newspapers.
Of course, as others have said, it is a very hypercritical viewpoint given Sweden’s actions during the wartime. Sweden helped neither of its neighbours (although in fairness to the Swedes, you could argue their actions were as pragmatic as Finland’s cobilligerance (not allied status) with Germany, as Sweden probably just wanted to ensure it was kept largely out of the fighting).
The Swedish government’s lack of official fighting help to Finland during the wars has always left a bad taste in our mouths towards Sweden, and understandably so. However we should remember that a significant number of ordinary Swedes did raise considerable money for and volunteered to fight in Finland and many were attached to brigades, particularly Finland-Swedish ones. For instance, in the Continuation War there were many Sweden-Swedes volunteers facing the Russian base at Hangö/Hanko.
Comment by JG — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
Why did Finland want support from Nazi Germany? Because no one else gave support. Well, that’s incorrect, there were times when Brits wanted to send forces, French Foreign Legion was ready to get here as well, to fight against the Soviets. But what happened? Sweden did NOT let them pass through their country. So… when the continuantion war started, what are you supposed to do?
Let’s not forget, there were only three capitals in the European theater of war that were never invaded/occupied. London, Moscow and Helsinki.
Seems to me that the Finnish strategy worked out pretty well after all. So, now, going 60 years back and condemning being in talks with the Nazi Germany in order to survive against Stalin, that’s fucking bullshit by someone who is a complete idiot.
I suppose Finland should have just accepted everything that is coming to them?
And does it serve the interest of Sweden that Finland is between them and Stalin? By declaring yourself neutral doesn’t mean you will get a free ride, if someone decides to declare war on you. Like for example, when Stalin decided to invade Finland.
The balls on this man are unbelievable. Criminally endangered Sweden’s security? Why would Finland do that… OHH that’s right, because there was this Stalin that kind of did that to us, and in that scenario, Finland was not really that worried about who gets offended, survival was kind of priority number one.
It’s a secret that Finland was in relations with Nazi Germany? I don’t know where this dude gets his info, this is pretty common knowledge in here, as in it is taught in school. Maybe this dickhead should read a book or two instead of spreading his Nazi-mongering and seeing that there were little options left, but I guess people shoudl have died so that dicks like this can’t play moral games later on.
Comment by Frustrated Finn — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
Please correct me if I am wrong:
I read somewhere on internet that Sweden,during WW2,although declaring neutrality in that war,actually was providing Swedish steel and other war materials to Nazi Germany. This was beneficial to Nazi war machine,in return for Swedish freedom from invasion by Germany..Also
I have read many references about deep anti-semitic attitude of Sweden during WW2,which also carries over to current day viewpoint of Sweden’s elite ruling class and politicians….Can someone further clarify that murky history ,which also seems to be the same in Norway as well….
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
InFINNdel, whilst I am the last person to sing Sweden’s glories during the war, there is such a thing as going too far.
Sweden helped evacuate almost the entire Jewish population of Denmark before the German occupation forces in Danmark could exterminate them. It is for that reason that most Danish Jews survived the war.
Norway is not the same. Norway was occupied by the Nazis and a puppet government under the Norwegian Nazi collaberator Vidkun Quisling ruled the country.
Comment by JG — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
Arnstadt is simplying the whole story; If we interpreted the whole WW2 history in the same way then we could say that Sweden served the cause of the Soviet Bolshevists by not allowing British and French forces to move through Sweden during the Winterwar. Then they kept the Nazi’s back clean by not interfering with them in any way and letting the Nazi troops move through Sweden.
In this case should also the USA, Britain and France be held accountable for the crimes committed by the Communists, with who they all as free democratic nations voluntarily joined with during WW2.
Now this doesn’t sound like the “correct” way of interpretating history, does it?
Comment by Mikael — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
“Is he claiming that Sweden had no faults during WWII? Or is he just criticizing Finland’s actions? ”
He seems to be just another publicity driven a-hole with no actual facts supporting his claims, just like those “Russians blew up Estonia-ship back in 1994″-Swedish and German idiots. He cannot even understand Finnish!
Probably there were more than a few situations where Finnish soldiers killed innocent Russian civilians and even got away with it. That is still world apart from the industrialized killing of Jewish people and others by the Germans. There were about 2000 concentration camps in Nazi Germany across Europe, mostly small local ones that were used to “feed” those bigger death camps. You should visit Dachau etc. and see that map of camps in order to realize how organized and huge the system was.
Comment by tim73 — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:32 pm
Phil wrote: What’s incorrect in his assessment?
Do you have all day?
The statement “Finland keeps quiet and lies about its relationship with Nazi Germany” is blatantly incorrect. Finnish historians study the Continuation War nigh-on obsessively. Even minor corrections in the historical picture make headlines. (Then there’s _Tuntematon sotilas_…)
The statement, “Finland eagerly supported Germany’s aggressive war tactics” is meaningless in its all-encompassing vagueness. What the hell are “aggressive war tactics”? What form, concretely, did this supposed eager support take? The statement is impossible to evaluate unless it’s given substance.
The statement “Finland carried out ethnic cleansing, for example, by allowing 3,000 Russians to starve to death” is again incorrect. Ethnically cleansing the occupied area would have been mighty difficult, considering that Soviet Union had already “cleansed” the civilian populace when they retreated, as per their usual policy. The lack of sufficient amounts of food was temporary, occurred at a time when the country as a whole was suffering from food shortages, and was in no way intended to kill off the few Russians who resided in Finnish occupied areas.
The statement “Finland was the only western democracy that voluntarily joined forces with Nazi Germany” is misleading if it’s supposed to indicate that the joining of forces was the result of public attitude toward Nazism and pointless otherwise. The expression “joined forces” is also a bit weaselly, as Mr Arnstad’s own country cooperated with Nazi Germany when it was in a much better position to resist than Finland.
The statement “With their opportunistic and criminal aggressive war tactics the Finnish leaders caused security policy risks to Sweden” is nonsense. The war tactics Finland employed plainly posed no risk for Sweden at all as they were competently devised and effective in practice. If what Arnstad is trying to say is that the very fact that Finland fought in the Continuation War at Nazi Germany’s side put Sweden at risk, then he’s once again wrong. Had Finland turned to isolationism after the Winter War, it would have been entirely too lacking in military equipment to withstand a Soviet or Nazi attack. If Arnstad believes that Soviet Union and Nazi Germany would have left Finns to starve to death in peace in such a situation, he’s ridiculously naive. Fighting between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany all over Finland, with the Finnish army incapable of resisting neither, would have put Sweden in greater danger than fighting between Finland and Soviet Union in Karelia did.
The statement “The convicted Finnish war criminals, such as Risto Ryti, are to be considered accountable for this”, “this” being the danger to our Nazi-assisting Swedish cousins, is of course wrong based on the previous paragraph. An independent Finland that controls its own territory was very much in Sweden’s security interests and Ryti’s keen judgment was vital in preserving it. Before Arnstad insults Ryti, who committed no crime under Finnish or international law, he should consider that his judgment with full hindsight and access to historical documents is worse than Ryti’s in fog of war.
If you’re gonna team up with the Nazi’s, you’re gonna have to do some horrible shit
Whatever “horrible shit” you think Finland did, rest assured that it wouldn’t have behaved any better or worse in any important way had it been fighting against Soviet Union alongside United States or Britain.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
Phil, even if your not an history buff, now that you live in Finland I would recommend that you read: Frozen Hell by William Trotter, It’s an American view of the Russo-Finnish aka Winter War. Maybe you just might learn something about the Finns past.
http://www.amazon.com/Frozen-Hell-Russo-Finnish-Winter-1939-1940/dp/1565122496
Comment by Tommi — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
He is a journalist, not a professional historian, which says it all. He is trying to revive a debate that Finnish historians already had decades ago. OTOH, he has one point: a lot of influentual people in Finland did indeed dream about Greater Finland stretching from Baltic sea to Ural mountains. The AKS (Akateeminen Karjala-seura) ideology was deeply embedded within the army officers corps. This is a fact often convienantly forgotten today.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
This sums up Sweden’s involvement during WWII…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pw3e64sosEg
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
N. Siinistö wrote: a lot of influentual people in Finland did indeed dream about Greater Finland stretching from Baltic sea to Ural mountains.
The Finnish government seems to have been mainly of two opinions about desired post-war borders, with socialists and liberals supporting sticking to the original borders and conservatives wanting to annex the occupied areas. Few mainstream figures wanted a White Sea port, fewer still any real estate in the Urals.
What would have been the winning option would have depended on the post-war order in Europe. If an independent Russia or Soviet Union remained next to Finland, then the old borders would have probably won, but if Soviet Union had been broken into small pieces, it would have opened the door for expansion.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:19 pm
From wikipedia for everyone who can read Swedish:
“Boken har fÃ¥tt positiva recensioner av lekmän medan mera historiekunniga recensenter ansett den vara “oseriös” och tröttsam. Andra invändningar är att förfataren hemfaller Ã¥t övertolkningar och spekulationer. Slutligen gör avsaknaden av notapparat att författarens källor ej kan verifieras.”
“Oseriös”, “Tröttsam”, “Övertolkningar”, “Spekulationer” “Författarens källor kan ej verifieras” - Well well well…
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Arnstad
Comment by Mikael — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:19 pm
There wasn’t realistic thoughts about Finland stretching to the Ural mountains. In some cases it could have mentioned as a joke. The Greater Finland -ideology is widely tought in schools as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland
Comment by Jeppe — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
I’m just saying, that according to what I’ve heard, he hasn’t told anything, that wasn’t public knowledge already, at least in Finland. Too bad he hasn’t bothered to study Finnish, so I don’t know where he get his information.
Comment by Kaislis — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
Yep, what can one add here - this is simply bad journalism. The Finnish connections with Germany and our determination to have her as an ally have been exhaustively researched by Finnish and non-Finnish historians. Of course there was a long period when the official Finland kept up the belief that we were very passive player in those months which is incorrect, but that is now way past - in any case the fundamental European strategic situation was not our choosing with the monsters in control and the West shut out. Obviously there was nothing ideological in that determination, Ryti was an anglophile and Mannerheim detested nazis as “cut throats” and “gangsters”. But what else could we do? The Baltic states were occupied in the summer of 1940 - as late as November 1940 Finland was first issue on Molotov’s list of demands in Berlin. Hitler said no. Had he said, fine, be our guests there would have been a brutal new attack with no friends in sight… There is nothing to apologise or be ashamed for about that. More about this subject from my blog below:
http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/2006/01/finlands-war-1939-45.html
Comment by mjr — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:22 pm
Arnstad: “Finland var inte bara tillmötesgÃ¥ende mot Hitler. Finland slogs pÃ¥ Hitlers sida. Gjorde gemensam sak med Hitler mot Stalin - i fyra och ett halvt Ã¥r. Säg … Vad har ni för uppfattning om Finlands moral?”.
I think he’s very, very far left if he still thinks that Stalin was the good guy who should not be fought. His habit of taking notice only of that evidence that supports his view is pure Stalinism.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:23 pm
Arnstad: “Finland var inte bara tillmötesgÃ¥ende mot Hitler. Finland slogs pÃ¥ Hitlers sida. Gjorde gemensam sak med Hitler mot Stalin - i fyra och ett halvt Ã¥r. Säg … Vad har ni för uppfattning om Finlands moral?”.
I think he’s very, very far left if he still thinks that Stalin was the good guy who should not be fought. His habit of taking notice only of that evidence that supports his view is pure Stalinism, too.
Comment by Tomi — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
After reading this all, I’d like to ask, if Finland was such an awful Nazi country, why did our Jews fight against Soviet Union side by side with others?
Comment by Kaislis — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
well it’s not uncommon that someone wants to sacrifice his credibility to get some publicity.
btw there were finnish jews in the finnish army during continuation war. so those jews were helping nazi-germany achieve it’s goals.
Comment by Paavo Ojala — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:40 pm
#11 JG Terve! thank you very much .I do truly appreciate your interesting and clarifying comments…
infindel from Massachusetts
….KITTOS!
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:48 pm
“I would recommend that you read: Frozen Hell by William Trotter”
- Me too. Great read.
It is strange the amount of discussion about the Nazis and a complete lack of discussion about 60+ years of Soviet crimes.
Swedish PM Göran Lindblad has been calling for an investigation into the crimes of Communism, so far with little success:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-3/30913.html
The lack of traction is mainly due to the Socialists blocking this because an attack on communism is seen to them to be leading to an attack on Socialists.
There are many crimes that happened during/after WWII that have yet to be accounted for. Even with the Nazi’s invading Russia, a Russian was more likely to be killed by his own Governmant than by the Germans or Finns. (Until the Germans attacked them, Russia was German’s biggest supplier. That’s two years into WWII.)
Perhaps all this anger can be directed in a more-useful direction. I think the Finnish WWII angle has been beaten dead. The Swedish angle probable has a good bit of steam in it yet but nothing compared to writing a formal account of communism in Europe.
Phil,
How about a preview button for comments?
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 6:31 pm
What can you say? The guy has a blog,so everything he writes must be true.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 6:37 pm
Okay. We have here certain period of time from WWII and it seems that Finland wasn’t with U.S.A thus Finland is most evil place on earth. Secondly Finland wasn’t neutral as Sweden says it was during war so again Finland is most evil place on earth.
Conclusion = Finland was central part of HOLOCAUST and probably used HUMAN FLES TO FEED CHILDRENS!!!1
Why Finland did that. Nobody knows but only swedes and Phil and they say that finns are evil by nature.
Threat from Soviet Union doesn’t explain anything!! Finns should be ashamed being finns.
Comment by Arnstad jr. Greatest Historian of All Time — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 6:40 pm
#24
There were also field synagogues not far from German troops in Finland and some of the Finnish jews who fought in the war were awarded with the German Iron-cross, all of them naturally declined.
And for the article at hand there’s nothing to add what has been already said here.
PS. Phil I suggest that you start reading history before you make blog posts like these as everything in his assessment is wrong or plainly idiotic crap.
Comment by Blah — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 6:59 pm
The Foreign Ministry has published a summary of a debate in Swedish radio between Arnstad and Finnish veteran Harry Järv. Arnstad seems to have a bee up his bonnet over the use of the word “cobelligerent” where he’d like to see the word “ally”. While in a sense any cobelligerent is an ally, so I’m not inclined to protest the use of the word “ally”, there are good reasons to emphasize that the Finnish government at the time saw itself as a cobelligerent first and foremost. For one thing, when the Allies found it convenient, they agreed with the characterization, e.g. when Soviet Union made a separate peace with Finland without a surrender or when the United States didn’t declare war on Finland even though it was in war with the Soviet Union.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 7:00 pm
This guy is just not helping Finnish/Swedish relations a bit, is he? He isn’t content to have the Swedes beat the Finns in Ice Hockey at the Olympics so he goes and makes up history?
The history of Finnish involvement in WW11 is pretty well unknown here in the States, even by people with history degrees and a very good general knowledge of the war. It does piss me off that Arnstad is muddying the waters for those who do not know what really happeneed.
I do agree Phil, that in some ways, Finland did make a deal with the devil, except, they didn’t have too much of a choice. I think that most people agree that if Finland did not participate in the Continuation War, they would have ended up like the rest of the Baltics. One of the many things that Arnstad conveniently leaves out is that is that after fighting with the Germans (as co-belligerants, and never as allies: the Finns sent no jews to Germany after lots of presssure to do so), the Finns refused to participate in the siege of Lenningrad, left the Germans on their own after they got what they wanted, and the Germans in retaliation, waged war on Finland in Lapland.
So, Arnstad, does not point out that the Finns ended up fighting not only the Soviets, but also, later the Germans, ( who, they admittedly, double crossed…but if anyone deserved double crossing, it was the Nazis).
P.S. Phil: there are some very, very good documentaries in Finnish with English subtitles, and one in mostly English (I think that the one about the WInter War is called “Fire and Ice” and is mostly in English), about the Winter War and the Continuation War. Plus, the movie “Talvisota” is in English subtitles and really pretty good.
Comment by Nipsu — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 7:20 pm
In essence Arnstads argument goes like this: Finns committed war crimes and worse. Now those who know about them lie. Most Finns don’t know about them,though, because they’ve been manipulated to believe the lies.
It seems that all this is a valid kind of a discourse in Sweden (although I don’t thin the majority would buy it). It makes one wonder - what do they think we are? Pretty special, I guess, not like them, unless they think that their own government is evil and they themselves stupid and thus easily manipulated.
Comment by Tomi — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 9:11 pm
Everyone keeps criticizing Sweden, as if that somehow discredits his points. Finland is the topic here, not Sweden.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 9:36 pm
Phil wrote: Everyone keeps criticizing Sweden, as if that somehow discredits his points.
Piffle. Everyone keeps criticizing Sweden because it’s great fun. Try it and see for yourself.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 10:12 pm
#36 Completely agree. Have Danish and Swedish friends in New York, and I as well know some Finns and no one talks negative but the Finns. Since I’m not from any of these countries I tend to be keen on their conversations. The Finns bad mouth everyone and they get no retaliation from anyone since most people describe them as “insignificant on many levels”—not my words.
Comment by click — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 10:22 pm
As mentioned earlier these things were discussed a lot in 60’s and 70’s and “Ajopuuteoria” was sunk then. I think it is OK to honour our veterans and our war time leaders. They did good work in difficult times. But we should face all the facts and not be offended even if a Swede reminds us of them. And I think Phil is already quite an expert in the Finnish history and politics.
Finland had three separate wars during WWII:
- 1939-40 Winter War, Finland was attacked by USSR and fought alone
- 1941-44 Continuation War, Finland attacked USSR with Germany, Northern part of Finland was given to German troops couple of months earlier
- 1944-45 Lapland War, The Finnish troops threw Germans out of the country, because the Sovjets demanded that.
The film “Unkown Soldier” tells only about years 1941-44 and you can see that our troops attack first and come home later.
UK and the British colonies declared war to Finland on December 6th 1941 (our Independence Day). USA never did that, thank You.
Comment by Bu Jinrui — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 10:29 pm
Phil said:
“I’m no history buff by any means, but it seems that both Arnstad and Finnish officials/historians are correct.”
I’m no expert but here’s how it goes, right Phil?
More Phil:
“Everyone keeps criticizing Sweden, as if that somehow discredits his points. Finland is the topic here, not Sweden.”
Cmon, czar of the discussion, his “points” have already been thoroughly discredited. I think that for this kind of blog post Sweden bashing is just a natural consequence.
click said:
“The Finns bad mouth everyone and they get no retaliation from anyone since most people describe them as “insignificant on many levelsâ€Ââ€â€not my words.”
Here’s some genuine finnish badmouthing for ya:
CLICK, YOU’R SO FULL SHIT!
Comment by BigRedJohnson — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 10:34 pm
Everyone keeps criticizing Sweden, as if that somehow discredits his points. Finland is the topic here, not Sweden.
My point was this: If in Finland an obscure journalist, who couldn’t read Swedish and without any serious study, wrote book about how the Swedes, say, sterilized Finnish children in Sweden on racial grounds, and have since actively kept silent about it, covering it up and what not, the media would be very, very sceptical. Why? Because we know Sweden pretty well, much better than Swedes know Finland, I’d say we have a pretty realistic picture of the country.
For many Swedes, not least because of the language barrier, and, well, lack of interest, Finland is an unknown territory. “Hell, perhaps they really have that kind of ‘Byzantine’ system there, you know, lies, cover-ups and uneducated peasants as citizens”, to exaggerate a bit.
If this is not so it’s hard to understand the quite positive reactions Arnstad has (also) received - even after several Finnish and Swedish scholars have debunked his opinions.
Comment by Tomi — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 10:59 pm
And about Jews here during WWII:
- Finland gave eight (8) it’s own Jewish citizens to Nazi’s. It was a shameful mistake at lower level of the interior ministry. Gestapo boss Himmler himself visited Finland and asked for more. Mannerheim said strictly no.
- Finland did not let Jewish refugees from other countries to enter it’s soil. Well, at that time not any foreign refugee indeed.
- Finland traded Sovjet POW’s with Germany. They gave us Finno-Ugric Red Army soldiers and we gave them Jewish prisoners and communist party ‘politruks’. About 3.000 persons ended up to concentration camps this way. (And this has not been thought in the Finnish schools.)
Comment by Bu Jinrui — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 11:15 pm
“Everyone keeps criticizing Sweden, as if that somehow discredits his points.”
Noo, this Arnstad guy is obviously jesusing around and the best way to discredit such points is to point out a stain in his own shield. Besides, Sweden bashing is included in service.
What comes to his claims that Ryti et al. should be held accountable for causing risks to Swedish security policy, if he knew something, he would know that the Red Army had specific instructions on how to greet the Swedish frontier guards nicely at Tornio river and keep out from the west bank.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 11:21 pm
Finland naturally didn’t give its own citizens to anybody be they Jewish or whatever. Actually Finland gave citizenship to most Jewish refugees in order to make it absolutely sure that Germany couldn’t get its hands on them.
Comment by Tomi — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 11:34 pm
Everyone keeps criticizing Sweden, as if that somehow discredits his points.
It’s not actually very difficult to dismerit his points, as you probably noted. Especially so as he has admitted that he knows neither Finnish nor anything about the debate on Finnish war history. Arnstad is simply passé.
Myself I just found it a little bit ignorant to declare how it’s a topic that is lied and kept quiet here. Today the war veterans are indeed praised and it tends to be only the Winter War that common people would like to rememember, but considering how these things were handled earlier it’s only understandable.
“So why did you go to war if you didn’t like it” was a pretty wide-spread attitude and good neighbour relations had it that Finland’s arrogant and adventurous pre-1939 foreign policy was to be blamed on the fact that any conflict even occurred. Independence Day celebrations sometimes awkwardly patriotic today, but they should be seen in this context. Babyboomers and former radicals are having their catharsis.
And what comes to the topic itself -I reckon we’re quite well whipped if you compare it with the discussion (or lack of it) of French resistance, the war crimes committed by the Allied, and such.
Comment by Aapo — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 11:37 pm
Finland gave eight (8) it’s own Jewish citizens to Nazi’s.
Where the hell did you get that idea? They were German and Austrian refugees. I’m not saying it wasn’t shameful (as was Arno Anthoni’s pathetically light sentence) and inexcusable, but please try to stick to the facts.
I believe that at least one of the eight survived and lived in Israel until recently.
About 3.000 persons ended up to concentration camps this way. (And this has not been thought in the Finnish schools.)
Yes, this is most disturbing.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 11:40 pm
@41: Here’s a long list (though in Finnish) of all whom Finland handed either to Germans or Soviets:
http://www.narc.fi/Arkistolaitos/luovutukset/tutkittavat.htm
About 40 000 altogether. Three thousand to Germans and the rest to Stalin. And it doesn’t even include the 50 000 Ingrians who had to be deported after the war -the biggest culprit being certainly Yrjö Leino, the communist interior minister 1945-48 and Zhdanov’s (the Allied control commission chief) personal puppet.
Explains by the way why Russians are our biggest foreign population. After the Soviet disintegration their fate was considered a kind of debt of honor and those with Ingrian origins were granted a fast-track procedure for citizenship.
Comment by Aapo — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 12:03 am
click wrote: no one talks negative but the Finns [...] most people describe them as “insignificant on many levelsâ€Â
Spot the contradiction.
Bu Jinrui wrote: Finland gave eight (8) it’s own Jewish citizens to Nazi’s.
They were refugees, not Finnish citizens.
Finland did not let Jewish refugees from other countries to enter it’s soil.
There were about 150 Jewish refugees in Finland during the Continuation War, not counting the aforementioned eight.
They gave us Finno-Ugric Red Army soldiers and we gave them Jewish prisoners and communist party ‘politruks’. About 3.000 persons ended up to concentration camps this way.
This, too, is untrue. There are no exact figures on how many of the 2′829 prisoners of war traded to Nazi Germany were Jewish, since Finland didn’t keep track of such things, but according to one estimate the figure is 74. The Jews ended up on concentration camps; the non-Jewish POWs were instead mostly forced to fight in the Nazis’ “Russian Liberation Army”.
Incidentally, later on Finland set up a separate camp for Jewish Soviet POWs, which totaled about 150 people, to keep them out of the Nazis’ clutches. The conditions were better than on Finnish POW camps in general, thanks to aid from Finland’s Jewish community.
One topic I’m surprised hasn’t come up yet is the 56′000 Ingrians who were handed over to the Soviet Union after the war. That has always struck me as one of the great wrongs of the Continuation War, even more so than the POW trades, as the numbers were so much higher.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 12:03 am
I would just like to point out that it’s a nice photo of the guy up there. Also I think a propeller beanie would complement his striped shirt and deadpan frown quite well. Is his second name Pelle by any chance?
Comment by saempy — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 12:16 am
For many Swedes, not least because of the language barrier, and, well, lack of interest, Finland is an unknown territory.
They do often seem like they live on an island, rather than a peninsula.
Comment by giustino — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 6:55 am
Arnstad is an amateur and is completely ignorant of the historical debate, that has been going on in Finland for decades (since he does no t understand Finnish). The things he brings up were first brought up by the Soviets after the war, nothing new here. An ignorant Swede.
Comment by Krisu — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 10:04 am
It’s always funny how the finns were nazis because they, out of necessity and after being abandoned by the rest of the free world, militarily allied themselves with Germany in order to survive.
But the western allies who out of simple convenience allied themselves with Stalins Soviet union never get the same treatment. Even though they allowed the soviets to occupy half of Europe.
Comment by Confused — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 10:12 am
Arnstad is running a blog about his book, in Swedish. Even though the book’s topic is Christian Günther, Sweden’s war-time foreign minister, the blog currently appears to mainly deal with this brouhaha. He responds to some of the criticism from Finland there, although not in a particularly substantive way.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 11:27 am
“What’s incorrect in his assessment?”
Pretty much everything. who is he to say anything? a writer? what are his merits? Is he even somekind of a historian.
Comment by un-tero — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 11:41 am
Mikael:
“Oseriösâ€Â, “Tröttsamâ€Â, “Övertolkningarâ€Â, “Spekulationer†“Författarens källor kan ej verifieras†- Well well well…
Whadya know, today the paragraph got removed by an anonymous user from
c-b56de655.99-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se
I wonder who it could have been.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 12:54 pm
Hey everybody -
I’m planning on having an impromptu interview with Henrik Arnstad this afternooon, but his wife could go into labor at any second so there’s a chance it won’t happen. And I doubt I’ll be able to make it a live interview at this time. But most likely it’ll be online tonight.
So, please please please write any questions you’d like me to ask of him. As you know my knowledge of Finnish history during WWII isn’t nearly at the level of you all, so any help you could give would be very much appreciated!
Comment by Phil — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 1:21 pm
Oh No the idiot is breeding what will the world come to now.
Sweden is Fucked with all of these brainiacs like arnstad
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
You know Phil, you gave yourself away already in the title. Obviously you’re the type of guy who sticks to the first thing you here about something even though not really knowing anything about the subject. When staying here in Finland and having a so called “political and cultural” blog about our nation, you should get your facts right before making such strong statements. When did Finland ever keep quiet or lied about our history with Germany during WWII? Just walk in to the first library, (yeah, we still have them thanks to our grandparents and e.g mr Risto Ryti) and ask for a book. You’ll find plenty of them. One very well written book is called “Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen”. It’s in Finnish but if you have native friends I’m sure some of them will help you to get rid of your bigotry. At the same time you’ll also learn that on the contrary what you stated, we never really had “a choice between the two opposing superpowers”. Stalin’s plan was to conquer Finland - even an ignorant person can’t call that a real choice. And finally, do you really think all this information we now have about Nazi crimes was there 60 years ago? You think Finnish leaders knew about all that shit what was going on? To them Stalin was far greater evil than Hitler. And if you know anything about Soviet history you can’t really tell who was the devil, Stalin or Hitler. Come on Phil, at least admit that you started here something that you can’t really defend with any facts.
Comment by American Jesus — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 1:46 pm
The Wikipedia article I posted from (#19) yesterday has been re-edited. Now all the critisism is completely gone. Wow!
Comment by Mikael — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
The Wikipedia article I posted from (#19) yesterday has been re-edited. Now all the critisism is completely gone. Wow!
Curiously enough, the ISP whose IP the “improvement” came from has a huge advertising banner on the front page of http://www.aftonbladet.se.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 5:07 pm
I think that we have a conspiracy-theory on our hands!
So what happened during the last ~26 hours?
-Phil posts this article at 3:21 PM, sparking an outrage among his readers.
-Phil decides that (or might have decided from before) that he wants Arnstad, as the controversial figure he is, to be on Radio Free Finland.
-Arnstad accepts the offer and wants to have a look at Phil’s blog where he then discovers the hard criticism that he faces.
-Arnstad discovers that the posters have linked to Wikipedia to an article about him.
-Arnstad discovers the footnotes and the criticism of his new book that has received harsh criticism from a several historians and other people who have studied the wars between Finland and Russia.
-Fearing that this criticism from these historians might be used against him by Phil and his readers, Arnstad himself or a good colleague to him, at the newspaper Aftonbladet, deletes parts of the Wikipedia article, thereby breaking against the rules of Wikipedia.
-The cover up is finished.
-Phil’s readers discover the cover up and the suspicion immediately starts to grow when one of them finds out that the evidence, after the cover up, is pointing towards Aftonbladet, a newspaper that Arnstad works for.
To be continued…
lol!
Comment by Mikael — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 6:08 pm
The Wikipedia page sure is busy. Here’s a blog in Swedish (naturally, deleted from the current page) that has some discussion regarding Mr. Arnstad’s antics.
How very fitting that we are discussing censorship, lies and coverups.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 8:14 pm
Whoops…
The blog link:
http://balticbandit.spaces.live.com/
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 8:15 pm
Just some dickhead who obviously has a hard on for the Finns. Nothing to see here, move on.
Comment by gopha — Wed, Dec 6th, 2006 @ 1:46 am
In the end, now that the discussion has been taken up by real historians in Sweden, this Arnstad fellow did rise the awareness of Finlands situation during the latter stages of the war, and (hopefully) of the importance of being critically-minded in this cut & paste, opinionated, mass (mis)information world of ours.
Comment by aet75 — Sat, Dec 9th, 2006 @ 6:23 am
I am sad to hear that mr Arnstad is judging Finland for the events during the 2nd world war. From the swedish point of view I would imagine that keeping Finland finnish and not Russian would have been preferential . No doubt the world would be a different place today not only for the finns, but certainly for the swedes,as well, had Finland not done what it did.Its very easy to judge others when you are safe and well in your own cuckoon . Since the war, Sweden has always been the rich country in Scandinavia because of the neutrality which it enjoyed during the war, unlike its neighbours.Finland ended up having to pay war debts to Russia after the war which were only fully paid some years ago.
Having lost huge parts of its lands and having to relocate large parts of its populations from cities and villages, unlike Sweden who never had to live with the horror of russian planes bombing their cities and losing loved ones like I lost my father who fought in the war and died when I was only young and left my mother widowed, I think mr Arnstad is lacking in understanding of the situation of the finnish people and the finnish government at the time.Its very easy to be judgemental when youre all right yourself. I know the swedes helped the finnish people a lot during the war, especially looking after refugee children,as we all know.The war was a dreadful part of all our history- there were so many victims everywhere and we are still paying the price in so many ways ,all of us who lost parents, brothers. I hope mr Arnstad bothers to read the amount of letters that people are sendind to this web site .
Helena Raja {Pia}
Bristol England
Comment by helena turunen — Wed, Jan 3rd, 2007 @ 6:58 am
As much I like the Swedes they should clean their own house as far as WWII is concerned. Finns were fighting the Russians and no one helped them including Sweden. Besides like some had said earlier the Swedes let the Germans go through their country to rule and oppress their Nordic neighbors,Norway and Denmark. There is a story there.
Comment by Clint — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 3:53 am
My dad who is deceased, and who was born in helsinki, has pictures of when he was 19 years old, infront of planes with swastikas. I,m so naieve about these things, because he never really talked about it, but I guess that means, he was helping the nazi,s. I don,t know. My brother said they were, but then they turned on Germany, after they found out what horrors where, being done, there. He was in uniform, in front of these pictures, with other men. Does anyone know, why.
Comment by suzan — Thu, Nov 8th, 2007 @ 7:24 am
During and before WW2 finnish airforce also used swastikas on their planes, so most likely pictures you’ve seen are of finnish aircraft. However it is true that Germany provided help for Finland in form of bombers and fighters, but i doubt you’re father had anything to do with nazis. Take a look at wikipedia for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force
Comment by Blank — Thu, Nov 8th, 2007 @ 10:43 am
Henrik go to russia you belong there commie maybe you get free great purge
Comment by Patriot — Tue, Jun 24th, 2008 @ 3:35 pm