Conscription For Jehovah’s Witnesses? No!!
Boys who are Jehovah’s Witnesses or residents of the Åland Islands are the only two groups who are exempt from conscription and civil service. But soon it might only be the Ålanders…
The Ministry of Defence plans to set up a task force to look into the question of whether or not there is any valid basis for the exemption from military conscription written into law for Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jehovah’s Witnesses are exempt from all service in peacetime. The task force being set up to report on the issue of religious affiliation and military service, will be giving special attention to this exceptional status.
Also among the questions to be addressed is whether or not there are other religious groups that should have similar privileges. According to the UN’s Human Rights Committee current practice means that young men of conscript age are treated unequally before the law. Finnish citizens who are residents of the Åland Islands are also exempt from military service because of the demilitarized status of the semi-autonomous province. However, no re-evaluation of that exemption is expected.
Perfect timing for this kind of article – Finnish Independence Day is on Wednesday, lots of war-related topics in the media right now, the whole nation is in Patriotic-Mode over conscripts who kicked some communist ass a few decades ago. No doubt support for conscription is at an all-time high during the Independence Day week. (BTW back a few decades ago, the Finnish army would just put a bullet in your brain if you refused conscription)
The Jehovah’s Witness religion dictates that its followers may not to part in any military service or alternative. It makes no sense to me why your religious superstitions are somehow more valid than my personal beliefs. Being a pacifist, or not believing in slavery, is just as valid of a reason. But it looks as if the UN may not allow this religious discrimination any longer, however gender discrimination in this case seems to be perfectly okay.
conscription army blows
tj 32
Comment by damn right nigga — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 11:37 am
“But it looks as if the UN may not allow this religious discrimination any longer, however gender discrimination in this case seems to be perfectly okay.”
Ah, but the really interesting question here is why we should give a flying fuck what the UN thinks.
Listening to the UN is akin to listening to a drunken mongoloid ranting on the subway. It might be amusing at first but it gets really old really fast.
Fuck ‘em.
Comment by jm — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
Phil wrote: No doubt support for conscription is at an all-time high during the Independence Day week.
Yes, because this is the first Independence Day ever.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 12:40 pm
Now’s a good time to break out my new religion. It includes drinking alcohol often and in great amounts, lots of orgies and of course, pacifist guidelines. I’m quite sure this religion is half million strong in few years, particulary among those of army-ready males.
I’m not sure about details of the religion nor of the name yet, but it shall come to me. You can also give suggestions, what you want YOUR religion to look like. Why be satisfied to some 2000-year old religion, when you can have a brand new custom made?
Comment by iJusten — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 12:49 pm
“Conscription For Jehovah’s Witnesses.No!!” article points out two controversial issues in Finland..
1. Finlands *SPECIAL* treatment of J.W.’s and *TOLERANCE* of their
needs is hyper political correctness in action.
2. #1…”conscription army blows” comment by damn right NI*** seems
to have stepped over boundry of political correctness,and could
be percieved as racism ala the recent ranting of George Michaels
of Seinfeld fame,whose *N* word sparked fierce worldwide
condemnation.
I wonder….hmmmmmmm….what does “racists must be shot” have to
say about this!?
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 1:23 pm
Somebody should tell to the Finnish Defense Forces that military parades are so 1970′s and there is no Soviet Union anymore. We outlasted them and Russians are at least almost friendly people now. I call the Independence Day “Taking tanks outdoors”-day. Naturally, the Unknown soldier-movie will be shown on TV for the 40th time.
Europe is still filled with cold war era tank divisions that have nothing to do. Germany even has a set of MIG-29s!
Conscription should be changed to somekind of civil defense service like in Germany. One year for both young men and women and you could choose between army, hospital, fire brigade services along with the traditional civil service jobs, for example.
Comment by tim73 — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 1:23 pm
Finland should end military service of all forms…Finland, by melting down all her weaponry,disbanding *defense forces* ,renouncing all violence and aggression worldwide,performing peace mantras,passing out incense and peppermints, will serve as perfect example to rest of Mother Earth…this *PERFECT PEACE* strategy will result in rest of the
world throwing down their arms,bringing forth the most massive *KUMBAYA MOMENT* seen in history of bloodthirsty planet!!…
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
jehova’s witness ? cheater sheperds, idiot sheep. They may spoil the army. Ten years of potato-peeling in a people’s reataurant should be their conscription. Strudel
Comment by strudel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
*4 iJustin….innfindel states the *MANTRA* that will be recited by
followers of new exclusive Finnish ideological/religious group.That
specially protected religious group proclaims their worship of Santa Claus thusly:
“Their is only one true SANTA CLAUS and OLUT and KOSKENKORVA are his
prophets!! KIPPIS KIPPIS KIPPIS!!
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
wtf nigga is not racist, nigger might be. right?
Comment by damn right nigga — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 2:11 pm
#10 rriiiiight .. ;(
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
I kicked some commie ass during 80′s (joke). Pics available in my blog now (no joke).
In fact my 15 min fame was related to anticommunism. IltaSanomat 1981: “Kokoomusnuorten oikeisto sanoo njet Rauhanpuolustajille.”
I say today: Conscription yes, NATO no.
Comment by Bu Jinrui — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
By the way, Phil, you’ve missed this one:
http://newsroom.finland.fi/stt/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=14452&group=General
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 2:44 pm
I have always thought it is a bit odd that the Jehovan witnesses get special treatment. Seems odd to me, although I confess I know nothing about their religion at all (other than they like knocking on peoples’ doors).
I think this story that the Defences Forces will look into why they are given special treatment and should this continue is sensible, as it does seem discriminatory.
Personally, I still believe in conscription being the only realistic way to maintain our defence force. Although, now that the Cold War is over I still don’t understand why we insisit on callling up more or less 100% of the age group each year. I think we should go down the route of our neighbours, and see this is not necessary these days (it would even save money that could be better spent on health or education, or even new military equipment), and perhaps try to call up less and then the Defence Forces would have more ability to ensure the people that are conscripted are the more suitable for it.
Comment by JG — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 4:35 pm
Finland doesn’t recognise scientology as a religion so I doubt you can make one of your own religion and get out of conscription.
I don’t know if this changes anything. After all JW are only free in peacetime. During war they must fight like the rest.
Comment by Someguy — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 5:00 pm
infinndel presents a useful link that will make military conscription outdated…..www.globalorgasm.org
Comment by inFINNdel — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 6:10 pm
The Jehovah’s Witness religion dictates that its followers may not to part in any military service or alternative.
You’re wrong, Phil. Jehovah’s Witnesses changed their official stand on alternative service in 1996 ( http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/civilser.htm ).
It’s completely OK for a JW to choose civil service. The exemption for JWs was made when this was not the case. Consequently, it would be downright wrong and unjust not to change the outdated law.
More info in Finnish:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovan_todistajat#Suhde_yhteiskuntaan
Comment by Johannes — Mon, Dec 4th, 2006 @ 11:45 pm
“BTW back a few decades ago, the Finnish army would just put a bullet in your brain if you refused conscription)”
A fair comment.
Comment by Krisu — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 10:12 am
I don’t see why Jehova’s witnesses should be exempt from anything. If we insist on keeping the conscription, then it should be compulsory for everyone, including women. Jehova’s witnesses can go to hell with their superstition.
I hate nothing more than those I-can’t-think-for-myself-women who say that it is a man’s “duty” to go to the army. Fuck off medieval idiots. Just because some retard decided so 100 years ago doesn’t make it right. 100 years ago women weren’t even allowed to vote.
Comment by m — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 11:01 am
“BTW back a few decades ago, the Finnish army would just put a bullet in your brain if you refused conscription)â€Â
More like 70 years ago, during a war. None of those people are alive today so it is of no consequence.
Comment by m — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 11:02 am
Besides if all the women were forced to serve the country, the system propably would have to include some alternatives that would make more sense.
Comment by m — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 11:05 am
Hey..if the muzzies (muslims) can make a guy fired from his job for making cartoon in Finland. I have no problem with a peaceful jehovas witness not going to army. Ill take a JW over a muzzie any day…
Dont mess with the Jehovas witnesses,,,they will be at you door 24/7 with books… and dont mess with the muzzies, they will get you fired,bashed and hung out to dry….. long live soon to be >Z> MUZIland (finland)…hahahahahahah marry chrismass opps I mean…mohamidmass to everyone….Tarja hu akbar
Comment by born in the U.S.A — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
I hate nothing more than those I-can’t-think-for-myself-women who say that it is a man’s “duty†to go to the army. Fuck off medieval idiots. Just because some retard decided so 100 years ago doesn’t make it right. 100 years ago women weren’t even allowed to vote.
m—Sounds a bit harsh. I’m not in favor of women in military service, but I see lots of possibilities in, say, elder-care and helping injured people who aren’t mobile, etc. So, if any national service were to be implemented, then I’d prefer it to go more in that direction.
Otherwise, maybe the options for males should be widened too. Someone already mentioned fire brigade, or maybe construction, etc. It’d be a good time in someone’s life to learn some practical skills—even for those who are more academically inclined. Not sure if I support a mandatory system though.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 8:11 pm
Jehovah’s Witnesses, cannot by conscience participate in any type of military service, for any country, and are jailed because of these beliefs. http://www.jw-media.org/region/africa_middle_east/eritrea/english/releases/conscientious_obj/eri_e050929.htm
So regardless of whether a country makes military service mandatory for Witnesses, or not, none will serve.
However, in some countries, Witnesses are allowed, instead, to take part in community service, such as road construction, cleaning hospitals or cleaning schools. If these activities are not connected with any other religious organization and are not in any way objectionable to the consciences of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they have often done this in lieu of military service.
Comment by Maureen — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 9:54 pm
Ah, born in the a-hole here again and still he hasn’t learned to spell yet.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 10:27 pm
Finnish alternative service doesn’t have anything to do with the army nor any religious organization. Going into civil service shouldn’t be a problem for Jehovah’s Witnesses in Finland.
Comment by Johannes — Wed, Dec 6th, 2006 @ 12:44 am
agree with #7, because we are now so so on equality. Then why the heck do we have this gender separation, there are women who want to go to army and male who don’t why not switch. As said there is many other risk not only war natural disasters, nuclear plants plowiing up in russia etc.
Comment by hopeatikari — Wed, Dec 6th, 2006 @ 10:41 pm
I’m British and I find this whole debate bizarre. You all go on about us sending our troops to Iraq etc, yet we’re not the ones who force our young people to join the armed forces. Get into the 21st century. It’s shocking that a country like Finland still allows this to happen. Here’s some advice – let young people do what they want at 18 without having the state interfere.
Comment by John — Thu, Dec 7th, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
#28
Come educate us when you have 1000 km shared border with Russia and only 5 million citizens. Or will you volunteer to give us billions for our new uber-duber mercenary army. Here’s some advice STFU
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Dec 8th, 2006 @ 5:04 pm
The contemporary Finnish conscript army will do nothing in the face of a Russian invasion: today’s Finns are nothing like their grandfathers back in 1939, though they like to imagine that they are.
John is quite right. Let young people do what they want without having the state interfere.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Dec 8th, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
“Will do”, al-Pundy? When’s the invasion coming, do you think?
In any case, you once again fail to understand the issue (probably because you’re not very smart). The issue isn’t whether a country should be able to force its young people to join the armed forces, because no country is opposed to that. The issue also isn’t whether a Finnish conscript army can repeal a Russian invasion, since a Russian invasion would lead to conscription regardless of how the peace time military is organized.
The real question is whether it’s a good idea to train young people in fighting skills in times of peace. Countries like Finland and Israel think it is, because conscription is a way for a small nation to maintain a relatively large fighting force without going bankrupt. You disagree, because you’re an ass who’s entirely unable to see the merit in anything that’s done in Finland but not in the United States. So it goes.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Sat, Dec 9th, 2006 @ 5:06 pm
#32
My point exactly, thank you ALWNGL
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Dec 10th, 2006 @ 2:50 pm
I meant #31 not #32
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Dec 10th, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
I’m British and I find this whole debate bizarre.
I’m Finnish and so do I, although for different reasons.
You all go on about us sending our troops to Iraq etc, yet we’re not the ones who force our young people to join the armed forces.
Of course, this issue is completely separate from conscription. It does not make a difference whether illegal wars are waged by conscripts or professional soldiers, they are still equally illegal. As Pundy has aptly pointed out, civilian populations in democratic countries with conscription are less likely to support senseless, immoral and illegal wars. It’s only that Pundy feels that this is a bad thing.
Now, last time I checked, GB was an island with a population of nearly 60 million that was last conquered in 1066, whereas Finland is a country of 5 million that shares a 1200 km land border with Russia and with a history to match that.
Incidentally, no-one is forced to join the armed forces. Civil service is an option as well.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Dec 11th, 2006 @ 9:21 pm
“”Ah, born in the a-hole here again and still he hasn’t learned to spell yet.”"
Comment by Anonymous  Tue, Dec 5th, 2006 @ 10:27 pm
Yes you better stay anonymous…..porky Cracker
Comment by born in the U.S.A — Mon, Dec 11th, 2006 @ 10:29 pm
31. Ah, well, a good sign that a Finn has lost an argument is when they’ve resorted to profanity to make a point.
Comment by Finnpundit — Tue, Dec 12th, 2006 @ 9:51 am
“Will doâ€Â, al-Pundy? When’s the invasion coming, do you think?
In his fantasies the invasion will come from another direction, from the USA. It goes without saying that in his “plan” the weaker the Finland’s army, the better for his yankees. Besides, the idea of masscred Finns gives him an orgasm. This is how he goes when he comes: “Hooray! I’m glad to hear a Finnish UN soldier is dead.”
(http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=5656 – post 70)
He also has regular meetings with the CIA and the Republicans – well, at least when he hasn’t taken his medication, I guess.
“Finnpundit” is a co-editor of this blog, by the way.
Comment by Tomi — Tue, Dec 12th, 2006 @ 11:22 am
No, not an orgasm, but a sense of satisfaction nonetheless, as the UN provides de facto protection for terrorists.
As moronic Finnish soldiers volunteer for such service, their elimination becomes all the more just.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Dec 13th, 2006 @ 3:25 am