I still stand behind my idea of them growing potato in the wastelands of Lapland…

…the luring city lights wouldn’t be that tempting, if they were a couple hundred kilometers away…

I thought he was called Aslak something… Not that he wouldn’t be notorious for escaping.

Errr. How does an escape of a prisoner make people in favor of the death penalty?? Should all prisoners that might escape be killed? Plese elaborate.

Wasn’t it in the news just a few week ago that KKO (“Supreme Court”) didn’t anymore object to releasing him? That is was now up to the President whether he’d get out or not? Or did Sweden have a veto, too?

Perhaps he knew that he wouldn’t get out – or perhaps he wants to stay in prison, knowing himself perfectly well what kind of an dangerous asshole he is.

Blaah,

Just what does this guy have to lose. What is to stop him from killing whoever attempts to put him back in prison? What are they going to do to him now? Although, I wonder what ‘life’ meant for him. How many more years did he have before being set free?

Is it fair to put some poor policeman in a situation of having to corner this guy and then perhaps put under the scruntiny of having to defend his actions if the guy is hurt/shot during his recapture. OR worse, he is gunned down by this guy.

Do it once. Do it right.

What the hell is the “hamina labour colony”? This guy should have been in a PRISON. What kind of resort was he staying at?

What the hell is the “hamina labour colony”? This guy should have been in a PRISON. What kind of resort was he staying at?

“labour colony” sounds more like a gulag than a resort.

5 mins google brings up this:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:LaborColonyHaminaFinland.jpg

So some kind of barracks run by the Ministry of Justice.

In any case, I don’t see why this has anything to do with the death penalty (read: state sanctioned murder). Surely the guy would have even less to lose by attempting to escape if he was on death row?

-BM

This guy is the poster boy for the death penalty, agreed. His guilt is absolutely certain and I doubt he’s going to ever reform into a real human being. Most murders aren’t that simple, though.
In principle he probably didn’t have that long to serve, he’s been inside way longer than most lifers, reflecting that someone up there had doubts about the wisdom of releasing him. With better impulse control, he would have got out eventually. Now it depends on how much action he can cram into the next few days.

Errr. How does an escape of a prisoner make people in favor of the death penalty?? Should all prisoners that might escape be killed? Plese elaborate.

It’s tough to escape when you’re six feet under. The longer you’re alive in jail, the more likely you are to escape.

Phil, what does this have to do with the death penalty. What if you were wrongfully accused of murder in Texas? Would you be so gung-ho about the death penalty then?

By the way, has anyone seen the “30 Days” TV series episode on incarceration? It was a real eye opener.

“Surely the guy would have even less to lose by attempting to escape if he was on death row?”

There is a very basic difference between accounting and finance. Accounting ignores the concept of time.

while a person on death row has all the more reason to escape, he should have very little time to attempt it, instead of housing him long-term in something that looks nicer than HOAS student housing.

Just how did he escape? Open a door maybe. Climb out the window?

Thanks for the image. I had spend 1 minute on google and this did not come up.

There are 6+ billion apples on this planet. You can stop and worry all day long about the rotton ones. Just discard them.

Finnish prisoners don’t need to escape. Just don’t return from your vacation. This guy has been in prison for 18 years which is huge amount for any crime in Finland. Besides can you really call this an escape, he was in minimun security prison (they don’t even have walls) waiting to be released. Authorities are hoping that he would get back by himself so they could release him. This guy was serving life sentence which is rarely over 14 years, so 18 could a record.

“There are 6+ billion apples on this planet. You can stop and worry all day long about the rotton ones. Just discard them.”

What if a good apple gets thrown in the rotten bin, and it happens to be you, tough guy?

Also this guy has already escaped twice before. (Latest escape before this one was not returning for vacation)

“Just discard them.”

I love it when people begin to quote Lenin.

Yeah, if someone in Finland deserved a death penalty, this guy would certainly be him. But even more just sentence would be simply keeping him in a maximum security prison for life. A real life sentence, not just 12 or 14 years like it is right now. With this minimum security crap such criminals can escape and cause trouble whenever they want, if we had real sentences this wouldn’t happen.

And I suspect this is the very reason almost third of the people want DPs back. If we put the mass murderers who aren’t ever gonna reform to real prison for life, you wouldn’t have to worry about dangerous recividists.

Anyway, I don’t normally support death penalty, but I would certainly support it for this particular guy. Might be a bit hypocritical, I know…

Wow, if this was Club Gitmo, (Retirement home for terrorists) you all would be against it.

Sorta comes home to you, when you realize there are bad guys loose in the world.

Shocking to a Liberals thinking no less. You have your own Club Gitmo in Finland.

With all the people who have been exhonerated by DNA evidence who used to be on death row, I have a hard time believing that anyone here in the US thinks the death penalty is a good thing. (They do, of course, but the logic of playing russian roulett with possibly innocent lives gives me chills).

I have to agree with s. tanger: the prospect of life without parole is far worse than any other punishment imaginable. Many states, Iowa and Minnesota come to mind, have adopted this punishment for capital cases, and it is certainly more humane than state sponsored murder, but chilling in its brutality. Denzel Washington, in “The Hurricane”, gave a great performance on the utter hopelessness of a life sentence.

“What if a good apple gets thrown in the rotten bin, and it happens to be you, tough guy?”

There are not that many good apples messed up in the system. Anyway, by being consistant and constantly throwing out the trash it becomes easier to identify the wrongly accussed from those who are truly guilty. Anyway, many of those who are innocent, got caught up in the legal system because they were already known to the police because of all of the other crime they were known to have committed.

It is a cruel tactic you play by greying the situation. I am calling on dealing with the clear-cut cases first. From what I can tell, there is no doubt as to this guy’s guilt. What is the point of keeping him around. After all, we did not put him in the situation he is in now. He did that to himself.

Most people get into trouble as a result of their actions. Take a look at the three strikers who get life sentences. Oh the horror that they got 20 years for shoplifting a lock (how ironic) or stealing a bike because it was their third strike. Take a look at their first and second strikes. Pretty serious felonies. How many chances you want to give these guys?

And by the way, someone has to be tough on criminals otherwise they will use you for all your all worth, sucker.

If this guy really was about to be released when he escaped, then he doesn’t think very rationally. I doubt the death penalty would prevent these types of people from killing anyone, because they just don’t think ahead.

“”There are not that many good apples messed up in the system.”"

I didn’t ask that, sucker, I asked ‘What if you got mixed in the wrong barrel and were wrongfully executed? Would you still approve your barbarism?

“”Anyway, by being consistant and constantly throwing out the trash it becomes easier to identify the wrongly accussed from those who are truly guilty.”"

Ha ha ha. What the hell are you talking about? This makes absolutely no sense. So you’re saying that if there is a death penalty, you will understand difference of the screams of protest more from the wrongfully accused than from the guilty? Jesus. Why am I even bothering with this? What are you, like, 7 years old?

“”Anyway, many of those who are innocent, got caught up in the legal system because they were already known to the police because of all of the other crime they were known to have committed.”"

Ho, ho, ho… This is why America has such low crime rates? How do I make an eye rolling icon?

“I didn’t ask that, sucker, I asked ‘What if you got mixed in the wrong barrel and were wrongfully executed? Would you still approve your barbarism?”

Chances of that happening are ZERO. On the other hand, the chances of being being gunned down or stabbed in Washington, DC by someone who should be behind bars is a real threat.

The only way that 99.9% of people end up being victimized by the system is because the system did not lock up someone who should have been in jail. Not by being wrongly arrested.

Get real. (and grow up.)

Generally, I’m pro-death penaly—and I think it should be used often—but I don’t support torture. Examples of torture include Gitmo and those SuperMax prisons in the US. Also, there seems to be enough evidence to conclude that lethal injection constitutes torture.

I’m pretty sure that we can have the death penalty AND be a civilized society at the same time. But torture only serves to move us away from that civility.

By the way, here’s one of my favorite american entertainers……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzNafaxGvs

His escape is the main news here in Sweden today (just watching the main evening news now).

I completely disagree with the death penalty in all circumstances. But I don’t think that is the issue here. The problem seems to be that, as the head of the Finnish prison service has just admitted to SVT, there was no camera observation over where he escaped from and that it would be fairly easy to escape from such a facilty. Being as he has tried to escape before, it seems odd that he should be placed in such an institution rather than a proper prison. I think that is the main issue here.

What if you were wrongfully accused of murder in Texas? Would you be so gung-ho about the death penalty then?

I’d feel the same way about life in prison.

JG:
“it seems odd that he should be placed in such an institution rather than a proper prison”

Our society is perverted. It seems to think that even subhumans like Valjakkala ought to have value.

And this guy was actually allowed to have vacations.

Supporters of the death penalty would improve their credibility if they addressed the possibility of injustice – it’s not like there’s any lack of real life cases. Opponents would increase theirs if they could come up with a good reason to let some sack of shit like this live.

11.There is a very basic difference between accounting and finance. Accounting ignores the concept of time.

while a person on death row has all the more reason to escape, he should have very little time to attempt it.
There is a very basic difference between theory and practice. Theory ignores the concept of appeals.

So tell me, in the US states which have the death penalty, what is the average time between sentencing and execution? About 11 years, yes?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=1397

Apparently sometimes people wait over 20 years – plenty of time for escaping.

But since you are arguing theories here, how about the theoretical right of the state to kill its citizens, outside of wartime? Very fishy to me, that a libertarian would support giving the state such severe powers.

Retributive justice has no place outside of Exodus 21:23-27.

-BM

Death penalty is no good.

Smuggle drugs into Indonesia, take a trip to the gallows pole.

Sodomize a lover in Pakistan, death by morally righteous firing squad bullets.

Black, poor, uneducated male American? Circumstance may lead you to a “humane” death sentence…at times regardless of guilt

Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There’s one in the spotlight, he don’t look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one’s a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There’s one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I’d have all of you shot!

Innocent people get executed all the time in the US, it’s just that they tend to be small time criminals anyway, those who haven’t committed the murder they get executed for, so they’d still fit Fred’s criteria of discarding the rotten apples.

Juha Valjakkala probably escaped because being released the ordinary way just wouldn’t fit for him, he’d be at a complete loss. Being an escapee is something he knows and has experience of, pure freedom would could be too scary for him.

Phil doesn’t seem to be aware how long it actually usually takes for anyone to get executed. In any case, it’s awfully hard to decide which murders deserve the death penalty and which don’t. The Old Testament way of an eye for an eye will never do in a civilized country and ultimately the death penalty will always hit the poor who can’t afford the best lawyers.

In my “how long it takes” comment I was simply referring to the length of the judicial process before someone ends up six feet under, not to methods of execution. And murder is actually a very typical crime where even when not executed, many people don’t commit the same crime twice. So the preventive issue is not that big, it’s just that some cases get this huge publicity and people talk.

Two letters explain how the justice system doesn’t work in the US (the same system that also utilizes the “flawless” death penalty:

»

Two letters explain how the justice system doesn’t work in the US (the same system that also utilizes the “flawless” death penalty:

O.J.

“So tell me, in the US states which have the death penalty, what is the average time between sentencing and execution? About 11 years, yes?”

As pointed out above, this guy just escaped while in his 18th year in prison. So if he was executed in year 11, we would not be having this discussion now.

Then again, Finland has a more basic problem, like failing to place this gentleman in a facility that you just can’t walk away from.

“Supporters of the death penalty would improve their credibility if they addressed the possibility of injustice – it’s not like there’s any lack of real life cases.”
– Examples please. (I know that there are 1 or 2. Name them.)
– You address the possibility by limiting the executions to those who are clearly guilty. There are any number of guilty people in jail where there is no doubt of their guilt in murder. Execute them.

“Innocent people get executed all the time in the US, it’s just that they tend to be small time criminals anyway, those who haven’t committed the murder they get executed for, so they’d still fit Fred’s criteria of discarding the rotten apples.”
– Once again. Examples please. (All the time. I think not.)

Maybe it’s just that Finns have not experienced being victims of crimes. A couple years back some person swiped close to $2,000 off my credit card. I do not know if he/she was ever caught. If I had my way, I would love to see the criminal get executed for that crime. Same for whoever broke into my car causing $800 in damage, just to steal $40 in tool out of the trunk. Same for the ass who caused hundreds of dollars in damage to my wife’s car in Helsinki just to rip out a stereo that could not have been worth $10. Call them small crimes if you want, but multiply it out hundreds of times, and these become serious criminals leaving a past of destruction in their wake.

How many times have you been arrested? It is not OK to have people walking around free who keep getting arrested and have been arrested 60, 70, 80+ times. They are just not good people like you and me.

Don’t agree with locking these people up? Fine, then why don’t you do something to keep them from getting in trouble again.

By the way, remember to lock your doors. You have a triple murderer on the loose. Kids, no sleeping in tents tonight.

The story is wrong. According to the PRison Service HE DID NOT ESCAPE:

“Leaving an open institution is not considered as an escape. If a prisoners has left the institution without permission, he can be ordered as a disciplinary punishment a loss of served time at most 20 days. In 2005 18 (27) prisoners left an open institution without permission.”

So why all the fuss?

Fred Fry, in comment number 34 you wrote:

“Maybe it’s just that Finns have not experienced being victims of crimes.”

Then you went on to say:

“[I would like to execute] the ass who caused hundreds of dollars in damage to my wife’s car in Helsinki just to rip out a stereo that could not have been worth $10.

For your information, Helsinki is located in Finland, where they use Euros, not dollars. Some time ago Finns used the Markka as their currency.

I would like to execute you for being such a putz. Is that okay?

Dear Dave,

I paid to repair the damage and I purchased the replacement radio and used dollars to do it.

“I would like to execute you for being such a putz. Is that okay?”

I am not sure where you are going with your line of commenting. My beef is with criminals. Your beef seems to be with me.

So I have to ask, are you threatening me or are you just stupid?

By the way, remember to lock your doors. You have a triple murderer on the loose. Kids, no sleeping in tents tonight.

——

If he would still be violent they would not:
Be releasing him
Keep him in a place with no guard and only a 1 meter fence
Allow him to take vacations (from which he has already escaped once)

Also these facilities are merely place to sleep at night. At some of these facilities you can work outside like normal people in a normal job and you only sleep in the facility at nights. In this case he was working inside the facility (in which they pay taxes and their own upkeep) but he still had permits to visit outside unescorted.

“So I have to ask, are you threatening me or are you just stupid?”

I guess by that comment I was being stupid, but merely because I was following your “logic” that petty criminals should be “executed.”

Dave,
My point is that these petty criminals are career criminals constantly causing problems. So instead of looking at the single petty crime, they should be added up and a suitable punishment applied. Right now, they keep getting set free, which is hardly the way to prevent them from doing the crime anymore.

Really, there is a problem when stealing a car is considered ‘borrowing without permission’ by the law. And if you think that breaking into a car is a petty crime, feel free to deposit into my Finnish account the 615 Euros it cost me to repair the damage to my car, and the 460 Euros it cost to repair my wife’s car. AMTRAK would surely be happy to receive the 1,538 Euros they got stuck with when I denied the fraudulent charges they stuck on my credit card.

I don’t consider those amounts petty.

Anyway, why can’t the victims choose the punishment? You want to let the criminal go free, then that’s your choice if your the victim. But would you?

A couple years back some person swiped close to $2,000 off my credit card. I do not know if he/she was ever caught. If I had my way, I would love to see the criminal get executed for that crime.

Here in Finland, where our government openly publishes our private information, this is very relevant to consider.

Same for whoever broke into my car causing $800 in damage, just to steal $40 in tool out of the trunk. Same for the ass who caused hundreds of dollars in damage to my wife’s car in Helsinki just to rip out a stereo that could not have been worth $10. Call them small crimes if you want, but multiply it out hundreds of times, and these become serious criminals leaving a past of destruction in their wake.

I agree that they should get executed. But, perhaps they should be given several chances to make sure there is a definite pattern. I don’t want the same standard applied to victimless crimes though, such as in America’s Three Strikes system. For property crimes, it’s fine though—including graffiti.

Three Strikes and You’re……..Dead!

“”Three Strikes and You’re……..Dead!”"

What am I doing here?? jesus.

#42 Hopefully not planning to steal anything

Three strikes works with me even though I prefer two-strike baseball.

How many strikes you want to give Dave? Just where do you live? What is the crime like there? Do keep in mind that this would not be a problem with the criminals would stop defacing, stealing, attacking. I did not create the problem, I am just forced to deal with it.

For your reading enjoyment. From California:

FACTS Top 150 Unjust 3-Strike Stories

http://www.facts1.com/ThreeStrikes/Stories/

Be sure to check out what Strikes 1 and two were for.

What would you do with these fine citizens? How about invite them to move to Finland.

(My favorite is the guy who got caught stealing the lock. The hypocracy, especially considering strike 2 was for Residential burglary)

Fred-

I’m not sure whether to even bother answering you, if you seriously think people should be executed for theft. Your view of criminal justice seems to fit perfectly with the Islamist extremists who you normally seem to worry so much about. It seems you would be quite happy to live with certain aspects of Sharia law, but that’s by the by.

But have you ever driven over the speed limit? I know someone who was killed by a speeding driver, so am quite aware of what the impact of driving offences can be. If theft of a car stereo is worth death, speeding which could kill someone else is surely worth a public flogging, or perhaps having a hand chopped off to remind you not to do it again?

Perhaps you are an angel who has never driven faster than a limit, or sped up to go through an orange light rather than braked. In which case congratulations, sainthood clearly awaits you. But for the rest of us who don’t reach these lofty moral standard from where you judge others, we can perhaps understand that people make mistakes, and although they should have some punishment they should after that be forgiven. Suppose it’s someone dear to you: a sibbling or a child or a close friend who makes a mistake and does something silly and is caught. Would you still be calling for the firing squad?

Finland remains one of the best places in the world where to commit murder, as the penalties are so pathetically light.

Toby – Such an amazing post. There’s very little to add.

Fred and Kristian et al, I find it very eerie that you do not trust the government to spend half (or more) of your income for the common good (or bad) but you are very eager to let the government kill people for stealing – something they might regret or even do intoxicated.

“Finland remains one of the best places in the world where to commit murder, as the penalties are so pathetically light.”

We must just be inherently nicer people then, considering how many less people get murdered here than in the US.

homicides per million 2000-2002 (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/13133031/30384):

US 55.4
Finland 27.7
England and Wales 17.5

Washington DC 427.8 (WTF is up with D.C.!?)
London 26.7
Helsinki 19.2

Finland remains one of the best places in the world where to commit murder, as the penalties are so pathetically light.

See now that inhibits slightly, as you know you can be gotten rid of in an “accident” very lightly as well.

“”"Fred and Kristian et al, I find it very eerie that you do not trust the government to spend half (or more) of your income for the common good (or bad) but you are very eager to let the government kill people for stealing – something they might regret or even do intoxicated.”"”

Good point. Maybe, Fred, you have a different idea of what the “death tax” should be?

Toby,

There needs to be some middle ground, and while my view might be extreme, keep in mind that as far as I am concerned, I would care less if those who committed crimes against me were executed or got as much time as possible. After all, they might come after me once they are let go. Right now the lack of real penalties is fueling the existing crime problem. There are too many people who are more interested in taking things away from others than working to get the things themselves. Look at the shootings in the US as thieves targeted those waiting for Playstations.

“Toby – Such an amazing post. There’s very little to add. Fred and Kristian et al, I find it very eerie that you do not trust the government to spend half (or more) of your income for the common good (or bad) but you are very eager to let the government kill people for stealing – something they might regret or even do intoxicated.”
– It is the responsibility of the State to maintain order and administer the justice system. The alternative would be to let Kristian and I do it. Does our eagerness make sense now?
– AHHH, the ever popular ‘I was drunk’ excuse. My favorite.

“We must just be inherently nicer people then, considering how many less people get murdered here than in the US.

homicides per million 2000-2002
– Washington DC 427.8 (WTF is up with D.C.!?)”

DC is a criminal paridise. Part of the reason for my strong stance against crime.

The police the same car theives day after day, amazed that the judges keep letting them out, often because they are seen as ‘victims’ of the system. One of the times that I had dealing with the police I was told directly that I should seriously consider moving out of DC, which I did. My Estonian neighbor also moved out shortly after she was almost kidnapped while jogging. The car stopeed a hooded man jumped out with a gun and demanded money. She had none as she was jogging. Their one mistake was that their was four of them in the car and realized that there was no room to stuff her. Her attitude about strong punishment changed with that incident. My wife’s attitude about the death penalty change with the DC sniper. Maybe you have to live here to understand. As the numbers point out, the US has a higher crime problem so stronger measures are needed.

DC is this way because of too much concern over the criminals. There is no justice for the victims.

Like I pointed out before, you can say that the death penalty does not work when you don’t use it. 2005 = 14,000 murders. Last 20 years = 1,000 executions.

“Maybe you have to live here to understand. As the numbers point out, the US has a higher crime problem so stronger measures are needed.”

News flash: Maybe it is BECAUSE of the excessive punishment that these people get “caught up” in cycles of crime in the US?

That, and the ass-backwards public welfare system that keeps poor folks poor and the rich just get richer.

“News flash: Maybe it is BECAUSE of the excessive punishment that these people get “caught up” in cycles of crime in the US?”
– No. As I pointed out, they are released immediately. Where is the excessive punishment in DC??????

“That, and the ass-backwards public welfare system that keeps poor folks poor and the rich just get richer.”

– Poor folks, like those who were in New Orleans were victims of their local Government, not the Federal Government. That is why minorities do well in most parts of the US. Take a poor person and have them move to a better part of the country, and they don’t want to move back. The federal Government is the same in all 50 states. The Welfare system is state-run. And funny that those who are in the worst areas have been run by Democrats, for decades……
– If ‘the system’ was ass-backwards then why is the country full of poor minorities. Why are they located in pockets?
– Notice how those who fled New Orleans did not go back.

It seems you would be quite happy to live with certain aspects of Sharia law, but that’s by the by.

Fred—I’ve been trying to tell you all along, that you need to take good ideas wherever you find them. Don’t let partisan politics, religions or ethnicities get in the way. Just cherry-pick the good parts and discard what doesn’t fit.
.
.
But have you ever driven over the speed limit? ….surely worth a public flogging, or perhaps having a hand chopped off to remind you not to do it again?

I, personally, am against torture. And I’m against using the death penalty against non-malicious crimes. Your example seems more like a ‘stupid’ crime than a malicious one.
.
.
Suppose it’s someone dear to you: a sibbling or a child or a close friend who makes a mistake and does something silly and is caught.

….caught over and over and over again.
.
.
I find it very eerie that you do not trust the government to spend half (or more) of your income for the common good (or bad) but you are very eager to let the government kill people for stealing

I’m only against the government spending half my income because it doesn’t make economic sense—neither for me, nor for the general economy. Otherwise, I have no problem directing government to do what’s right. Read my other post and you will see that I consistently state that.
.
.
……- something they might regret or even do intoxicated.

Only two-strikes in that case, instead of three.

Fred –

You didn’t answer my question though, can you hand on your heart say you have never broken a law? Any law? And what punishment should there have been if you had been caught?

And you seem to miss my point, that in Finland and the UK we have much lower numbers of homicides despite having what you consider to be weak sentencing. I would prefer to have lambast the Finnish prison system for letting a convicted murderer walk out of an minimum-security prison, than I would to live with crime figures like you guys have to in the US.

You were advised to move out of D.C., whilst there is nowhere in Helsinki I would be unwilling to live and only a few such places in the UK. You are most welcome to keep lobbying your elected representatives to kill more people in your country if you really think that is the answer, but our solutions to criminal justice (and I here I talk of Finland where I live, and the UK where I am a citizen) seem to be working more successfully, so please don’t be suprised if I treat your idea of executing car-stereo theives with derision.

I saw a nice, small-sized mobile home/camper parked in Helsinki recently. Someone graffiti-painted the front hood-panel.

Three Strikes is generous.

Toby,
Speeding, yes. Getting into an accident, no. reckless driving, No.

Should police be more aggressive ticketing speeders, yes! This is a perfect example, there is little/no repercussions for speeding. Do I speed in DC, NO. They have stationary and portable cameras and police everywhere ticketing. There are also Federal police ticketing in areas of their control. (A federal ticket is a mandatory trip to court.) Now, DC tickets for revenue purposes, but they are so greedy and aggressive that most people will drive near the speed limit and those who don’t have a nasty surprise every so often. Otherwise there is little serious speed enforcement where I drive and I do speed. Going to NY I average 75, 10 over the speed limit, as is everyone else. It is almost dangerous to not move at the speed of traffic. Is that right. No, but there is no penalty for speeding. If the police get aggressive and ticket all speeders, then there would be no speeding. I and for police going after speeders.

“but our solutions to criminal justice (and I here I talk of Finland where I live, and the UK where I am a citizen) seem to be working more successfully,”
– The Finnish murder statistics look good compared to the US, but they are close to the highest in Europe and that is nothing to brag about, as long as your not bragging to an American.

“so please don’t be suprised if I treat your idea of executing car-stereo theives with derision.”
– There is no criminal justice in Finland for most crimes. You call the police and they either don’t come or it takes 45 minutes for them to get there. Why do I, the victim, have to go to the police station, especially when I point out that there are 6 other cars broken into.
– My point in all of this is that Finland’s soft approach to fighting crime is too soft. More and more people will take advantage of it. My Estonian friend tells me that Estonians go to Sweden to steal because even if they get caught, jail there is not so bad. Finland will see more of that as well. Why are Russian criminals in Finland? Because Finland is easy.

this would not be a problem if people did not steal and attack others. I am not the problem. They are. It is their behavior that needs to be addressed.

#57
Yeah, Finland is still living in 1986, when there were no 3rd-World foreigners roaming freely from one European country to the next. I mean, we have a government that still publishes our private financial information for anyone to view freely—including foreigners.

It’s only 2006. I guess you can’t expect us to get our heads our of our asses overnight.

By the way, I was a licensed merchant marine officer. The ten years I was licensed by the Coast Guard, there was always the possibility that any driving infraction I received could be used against me to have my license taken from me. The thinking was that if you are irresponsible with a car, then surely you can be trusted to operate a ship. And forget being caught driving drunk. The Coast guard only required an arrest as an excuse to revoke a license. Does not matter if your not convicted. So you want to talk about harsh penalties? How about tying your livelihood to your personal life.

And as for the way Europe deals with crime. How about criminalization of self defense? Don’t get caught whaching an intruder in the UK with a bat. He’ll sue you, provided he does not kill you. any surely don’t shoot house invaders in France and kill one of them. You’ll be arrested, like in a recent case. That is just idiotic. the police are not there and it is the citizen alone, who become the criminal for stopping crime, in his own home.

Fred@51:”- It is the responsibility of the State to maintain order and administer the justice system. The alternative would be to let Kristian and I do it. Does our eagerness make sense now?
- AHHH, the ever popular ‘I was drunk’ excuse. My favorite.”

So what about the young lad behind the Porvoo Cathedral arson. He was drunk and got carried away, ended up destroying the roof and some other invaluable material. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t hesitate to sentence him to death but what good would that do? Prevent future arsons? Get rid of a person who’s only damaging society? I think not. He’s probably just a regular kid like anyone else.

Your view on humankind is very pessimistic. If one causes harm in any way (well, except speeding which is a-OK) he’s damaged goods, rotten apple, human waste. I haven’t met a single person in my life who I would say is perfectly “good”. Everyone has “evil” tendencies and there’s no telling who has more and who less. And what gives you the idea that evilness is something that can’t change in a person? George W. Bush used to be a drunken idiot and now he’s a respected leader of the free world. You can’t foresee the future so you have no idea what an executed human being would have become or achieved. Remember Stanley Tookie Williams for example. He was a murderer. So were a lot of heroic heads-of-state like Sir Winston Churchill and George Washington. They did what had to be done, right? Maybe that’s what Tookie thought about his murders.

This might’ve gone over your head now but all I’m saying is that death is certain and it is final. Sure, we should discouraged people from killing each other. But don’t tell me you know who deserves to die and who doesn’t. Or that the state knows for that matter. Everything is so messed up and complicated that there seems to be no real answers. I think we should just try to protect ourselves and each other but at the same time give everyone – even murderers – the change to live.

The idiot that set the Porvoo(turku?) cathedral on fire should go to jail and cool his heels there for a couple of years in my opinion, regardless of being drunk, stupid, or whatever his excuse is. Whether done on purpose or by accident, he directly caused a huge amount of damage, and it was only a matter of sheer luck that the fire did not completely destroy the building. Millions of Finns regularly get drunk and never manage to do anything close to this damaging.

It is not my right to determine his punishment. His crime was arson, and that is a serious crime, when sometimes results in death. Now don’t kid yourself. He is not a regular kid. He might have been before the fire, but not any longer. If that is how he behaves when he drinks, then he should not be drinking. That kid was not by himself either. He friends should have stepped in, but they did not. Perhaps the alcohol was in control or perhaps they just did not care. The end result is a torched church. We can’t un-torch it, so why put the kid in jail, right? (Has this kid been up to anything else?)

Yes the world and everyone in it are shades of gray. However, most are much closer to white and there is a small, but dangerous group, that is hovering near black.

I asked before, what was the point of keeping this murderer around and giving him another chance? This guy did not even blame his actions on a mistake or alcohol. Plain, simple murder. Great, the Swedish and Finnish systems have decided to give him another chance. That is something his victims will never get. The discussion will get real interesting if he kills again. I hope not but there seems to be real concern to find him before he has the opportunity to ruin any more lives. Anyway, this is now chance # what that he has broken the trust that the system has given him as part of his ‘recovery.’

How many more chances for this guy? The punishment for walking away is a maximum of 20 additional days in prison.

So you don’t think this guy deserves the death penalty? Earlier you were telling us how you would like to see the person who broke in to your car executed. Are you just a very vengeful man?

And yes, apparently the Finnish officials misjudged Valjakkala’s will to walk out. I would personally still keep him around though. He can contribute cheap labor and have a decent life behind bars. It’s a punishment, it reassures citizens that they are safe, but also gives him a chance to change and redeem himself.

“this guy” = Porvoo Cathedral arsonist.

“”George W. Bush used to be a drunken idiot and now he’s a respected leader of the free world.”"

No, he’s just a sober idiot.

While I pretty much agree with you on your other stuff, I had to chime in on the above quote.

“”And as for the way Europe deals with crime. How about criminalization of self defense? Don’t get caught whaching an intruder in the UK with a bat. He’ll sue you, provided he does not kill you. any surely don’t shoot house invaders in France and kill one of them. You’ll be arrested, like in a recent case. That is just idiotic. the police are not there and it is the citizen alone, who become the criminal for stopping crime, in his own home.”"

I just saw the Borat movie last night and now I know where you’re coming from. You’re that dude at the rodeo.

George W. Bush used to be a drunken idiot and now he’s a respected leader of the free world.

—————

Imagine a world where George W. Bush didin’t get a second change. Imagine a paradise.

“So you don’t think this guy deserves the death penalty? Earlier you were telling us how you would like to see the person who broke in to your car executed. Are you just a very vengeful man?”

If by this guy, you mean:
– Juha, the murderer, yes.
– The Porvoo arsonist, no.
– The guy who broke into my car, yes.
– Guys in general who break into cars, ask the owner of the car..

My call for the death penalty for ‘minor’ criminals is specifically directed to those criminals who have committed a crime against me.

If you think these minor criminals are not a problem then do nothing about them. Not much is being done about them, and that is a problem. Take NY City’s crime problem. Crime in NY went down drasticly after they decided to aggressively go after and jail minor criminals.

“Are you just a very vengeful man?”
– I am tired of being a victim.

What the hell is going on with crime in Sweden:

http://www.folketsnyheter.se/?sida=artikel&aID=407

The clarification of the story is in English, but the original story was only in Swedish.

“With a police officer in Stockholm who confirmed that the majority of perpetrators behind the rape epidemic that has struck Stockholm are black Africans and also commented: ”But this is something one is not allowed to speak of”.”

However bad Finland’s crime situation is, Sweden’s appears to be much worse, and immigrant driven. Maybe they don’t understand the Scandinavian approach to reforming criminals.

DAVE -

Way to spot the sarcasm. Besides, he is thought to be the “leader of the free world” and “respected” by many, many people.

Fred -

Crime in NY has went down but is still high if you compare to Toronto for example. Some even seem to think it hasn’t gone down at all: http://www.nycpba.org/publications/mag-04-summer/compstat.html

Scare tactics don’t work against those who do not know anything but a life of crime. Well, I can’t say I’m 100% sure that “tough on crime” policies are ineffective. My beef is only with the death penalty.

Anyway Fred, you have a very strange take on justice. Of course every victim wants payback but if you want to live in a civilised society, that simply isn’t possible. I’m sure you have pissed off a lot of people during your life too. Everybody has intentionally or otherwise. Who defines which are crimes and which aren’t? I feel more sorry for someone whose husband or wife cheated on them, than you. I bet there are a lot of people who would execute their exes if they had a choice.

If you could modify the judical system any way you liked what would it be like? Victims set the punishment? Objective justice is very hard to achieve but I think we need to try our best. Otherwise society will lose its predictability which is one of the foundations of the social contract.

This is the Helsinkian-type follow-up post…

If we start engaging in a subjective (and vengeful) justice system, we will redefine the whole concept of crime. That’s what I meant by the “cheating on” example.

Executing the guy who broke in to your car and not the guy who caused millions of euros of damage to the cathedral just doesn’t make sense. That’s a good example of why one person (and especially someone involved in the case) shouldn’t be the judge, the jury and the executioner. Maybe we need a value-free and emotionless machine to figure out the proper punishment. It’s impossible to have a totally just society, mistakes are always made and mistakes that kill can never be rectified.

So there really is no justice in the world. But there can be order. And that’s what the judical system is for.

Pave,

Personally, I would prefer that people do not commit crime. I am considerate of others and often offer to help strangers who look like they need help.

Look, it’s all very simple. Just stay out of my home. Stay away from my family. Don’t touch my car. Don’t use my personal information.

Is that so much to ask for?
I think those are rules that everyone can live by.

Fred -

I know and I’m with you on all that. These are the everlasting problems in society. I think it all boils down to everybody being so very different and coming from all walks of life. I don’t have the solution (nobody does, I’m sure) but let’s just not do anything too drastic.

Anyway Fred, you have a very strange take on justice. Of course every victim wants payback but if you want to live in a civilised society, that simply isn’t possible. I’m sure you have pissed off a lot of people during your life too.

Strange? I don’t find Fred’s view to be the slightest bit strange, and I don’t think that “payback” is his (nor my) motivator—it’s a a good one, but nothing on which we would base our main argument. And we’re not talking about merely “pissing someone off.” There are people out there, whose purpose in life is to prey on others. We’ve already discussed the example of repeatedly damaging another person’s property. We’re not talking about accidental damage. It is intentional and malicious.

I’m not some big ‘law and order’ guy who wants all kinds of penalties for everything imaginable. In fact, there are many areas that should be relaxed. I really want maximum personal freedom for everyone. But, that does NOT include freedom to harm others or their property. I’m willing to go with Three Strikes or something similar for property crimes. In my view it’s a great deterrent—for most cases—that will make a perpetrator think before he acts. But, for something like armed robbery or gang violence, one chance is enough. I think we can live with that and simultaneously refer to ourselves a civilized society. Right now, with malicious crime that is seemingly uncontrollable, I don’t think we have a civilized society.

Kristian, you don’t think it’s inconsistant to be willing to execute someone who broke into a car but not someone who set a historical cathedral ablaze? And weren’t you serious about executing graffiti makers? If that was a joke, you repeated it too many times.

As I said before, I’m only really interested in the death penalty discussion.

Kristian,
As always, well put.

Pave,
To make you happy, Lets limit the death penalty to only cases involving murder. I think that is fair.

Going back to the cathedral, if I wa in it when it was torched, then yes, I would advocate execution for him. I was not so it really does not interest me (no emotional attachment to the experience) other than to see what the Finnish justice system things is an appropriate punishment.

“Lets limit the death penalty to only cases involving murder. I think that is fair.”

But can we keep flogging for speeding? A speeding driver killed the person I knew. Surely a good flog would prevent this type unnecessary killing of people?

It seems to be working in Mogadishu: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6106398.stm

@Fred Fry, post 34
Logically a single case (you say you know one or two) is enough to establish that murderous miscarriages of justice do happen.
I suggested you should address this, not that you should capitulate to the abolitionists. You could easily admit that this has happened in the past and that a lot could and should be done to prevent such mistakes (mandatory DNA testing when applicable and so on). I don’t know why so many people defend indefensible positions that are not even necessary for their case.
Doing something to make the system less imperfect would actually be a bit more constructive than merely abolishing the death penalty. If I were innocent and had to choose between death and a life in jail, I’d take death.

@Kristian

Still smoking that reefer eh?

Pave: you don’t think it’s inconsistant to be willing to execute someone who broke into a car but not someone who set a historical cathedral ablaze? And weren’t you serious about executing graffiti makers? If that was a joke, you repeated it too many times.

Interesting thought. Perhaps I should tell Fred that he is being too lenient. Then again, I’m the one who advocates Three Strikes, so maybe he’d tell me that I’m being too lenient. It’s a quandary for sure. Thanks for pointing it out.

Kristian -

Yes, and thank you for avoiding the question

PoD –

Good point. I would personally take life in jail as then I would still have hope.

Toby,
“But can we keep flogging for speeding? A speeding driver killed the person I knew.”
I would think that the driver was driving recklessly. Sure he was speeding, but in an irresponsible way, as in getting into an accident. You don’t punish him for speeding, but for acting in a way that resulted in the death of others. I do not know the fact, but sure, if the speeder was at fault, he surely deserves more than a speeding ticket. Something harsh. What would you do to him?

Wow, didn’t take long for the flog’em-and-hang’em lot to reveal themselves. It amazes me that otherwise sober, sensible people become so vindictive when corporal and capital punishment are discussed.

I’m going to restrict myself to answering Fred Fry’s comment about my own comment.

34. “So tell me, in the US states which have the death penalty, what is the average time between sentencing and execution? About 11 years, yes?”

As pointed out above, this guy just escaped while in his 18th year in prison. So if he was executed in year 11, we would not be having this discussion now.

So if he escaped in his 10th year in prison, then executing him might not be moral? You miss the point. And anyway, I said that was the average – in the next paragraph I mention that some wait for over twenty years.

The only point I’ve been making is that the state has no business deciding who lives or dies, except in the case of war.

And yes, you could argue the state makes that decision every time it decides on hospital spending or road safety plans, but the difference is those are cost/benefit decisions. There is no benefit to capital punishment, so it’s not the same kind of decision.

Killing one murderer won’t stop the next murder coming along. Allowing the state to execute criminals is not a solution to crime.
It never has been, in any country where it’s been used and I dare you to show me different.

The only thing it does is feed the bloodlust of some of the public, and give vengance (not justice, vengance) to the victims. And what do you think of a society that bases its justice system on bloodlust and vengance?

tl;dr, arguing on the internet, etc etc. I know.

-BM

Fred, so it’s a bit like pinching post-it notes from office supply cupboard then is it? Some laws don’t need to be followed by us as long as we’re not “reckless”?

Toby, Do you treat each speeder like a murderer? your problem seems to be defining what the crime was. What was the driver who killed your friends charged with besides speeding? Reckless driving? Manslaughter?

Badger,
In a case like this it really should not take so long to convict and then carry out the sentence. The reason it takes so long to execute someon is because those who are against the punishment get involved and drag out the process. There is no doubt as to Juha’s guilt. What 1-2 years to go through the process and be done with him. Instead this is the 5th time they have had to chase after him and at least one citizen was made a crime victim because he stole a car to get away.

Take a look at the DC sniper. Crime was done in 2002. He has been convicted and sentenced to death. He is almost through the appeals process and once that is done he should be executed. Lets see if the anti-death penalty crowd manages to drag it out a couple years.

Take the 17 year old murderer who threw a woman off a bridge. His case went to the Supreme Court. Not to debate his guilt (he confessed) but to debate why he should not be executed.

Phil:

“It’s tough to escape when you’re six feet under.”

It’s also tough to enjoy it, when your wrongfully issued sentence is withdrawn. Not that people like you seem to care. AND, I’m not talking about Valjakkala in this case.

Fred Fry:

So you libertarian idiots are not content with the good old “muslim” eye for an eye. You want even more. Death for 800 dollars. Why not death for 10 cents?

By the way, there is something called insurance, if you’re too uninformed about this. Idiot.

Thomas,

Ever hear of a deductible? Feel free to send me the $800. (As well as the other amounts I mention above as they were my post insurance out of pocket expenses.) And Just what type of insurance do you suggest for a 1994 car with close to 190,000 miles on it. Most people will not have comprehensive insurance (I do) because it is too expensive. It would be much cheaper to put a number on the car for thieves to call so that I can come out and hand them $100 bills not to damage the car.

ALSO, Insurance does not give me back the three hours of my life it took to get replacement plates for my car, which have no monetary value according to the insurance company, nor for the week I was without the car as they repaired the frame for the window they kicked out.

So you call me an idiot for my view. Excuse me for wanted to punish someone who stole from me. I rate him slightly lower than an idiot. As I said before, the person is human garbage in my eyes. Look at how pissed off you are at me just for reading my opinion. I did nothing to you. Imagine if I had broken into your house and taken a thousand euros of stuff, and then torched the place on the way out to cover my tracks.

You just don’t get it do you. Eventually you will be targeted and lets see how you deal with it.

(I am not a libertarian.)

Fred Fry:

“I did nothing to you.”

Yes you did. You insulted my intelligence. I demand a death penalty for that.

“ALSO, Insurance does not give me back the three hours of my life it took to get replacement plates for my car”

Yeah, the death penalty is surely the right penalty, to make it – an eye for an eye – given that you actually spent THREE hours of your “precious” life-time on this matter. Your moral is somewhat screwed up. Hopefully you understand this without too much further explanation.

“Excuse me for wanted to punish someone who stole from me.”

I don’t accept eye for an eye punishment. Never. But especially when it’s in in the favour of the punisher. In the way you like it. Why didn’t you head off to Iraq, btw. I think there was a much photographed prison over there – Abu Ghraib (spelling might be incorrect) – where your “talents” (or basically your emotions) could have been put in use.

“Imagine if I had broken into your house and taken a thousand euros of stuff, and then torched the place on the way out to cover my tracks.”

Imagine if I had broken into your house and killed you. Would you whine here.

“You just don’t get it do you. Eventually you will be targeted and lets see how you deal with it.”

I get it now that you tell me. When do I expect you to attack?

“Imagine if I had broken into your house and killed you. Would you whine here.”

– Good luck trying. I am prepared for intruders. My comments on this threat should leave no doubt about that.

“I don’t accept eye for an eye punishment. Never. But especially when it’s in in the favour of the punisher.”

– How about in favor of the victim? The victim was created by the criminal who is being punished. Once again, it is the criminal who put themselves in this position. The punishment should outway the crime. Otherwise the slogan ‘crime does not pay’ would not be true. If it was not severe then punishment would simble be the cost of doing business, like it is now.

“You insulted my intelligence.”
– That’s not possible. I did not detect that you had any to insult. I did detect the whiff of alcohol.

Welcome back to the Middle Ages Kristian and Fred Fry et al. Those were the times when you would hang people for stealing a handkerchief or a loaf of bread. A rule of terror.

The discussions on this blog always tend to get a little bit too “emotional” (e.g. fuck off, you have no intelligence etc.), which is why I rarely post anything here though I read this often. The thing here is that no one discusses the death penalty as a wider problem concerning the role of justice in a nation state, but everyone is referring to single crimes. The logic of defending the death penalty just because someone stole something from YOU is not a workable argument for considering the justification of the death penalty in the whole SYSTEM of justice.

The wider problem is that this death penalty system gives the right to decide over the INDIVIDUAL’s life to the STATE. We are at the same state/individual-dilemma as in the questions of how much one should be taxed, should the individual pay for his medical care instead of the state etc.

The state should have some coercive control over indviduals, otherwise we live in anarchy. But, how long can the state go? This dilemma comes across cases where the prisoner asks for clemency on the basis of personal reform. Sometimes these personal reforms are false, sometimes true. Does personal reform count? If it doesn’t in ANY cases, are we neglecting the individual’s right for personal rehabilitation, his self-governance? This is both a moral and a philophical dilemma.

I am myself anti-death penalty, since I have not found any relevant arguments for defending it. I really would like to discuss this with you guys, but I do not see any point in arguing for death penalty by referring to emotional facts like “Finland/USA is better”, how many crimes there are in Helsinki or are there any, look at Abu Graibh, blabla. Someone even called Valjakkala a “subhuman” here, what kind of a word is that? Calling someone untermensch is not very analytical. I personally think that he is a psychopath, a very sick person, but I don’t see any valid reasoning for him to be executed but he should be kept behind the bars.

Dear Sanna,

I think the level of the discussion depends on both parties. I and i am sure Kristian can hold a very reasoned conversation with anyone provided that the other party also discusses/argues in good faith. Take your post. You mention “are we neglecting the individual’s right for personal rehabilitation, his self-governance?” My question to you is, does a person have a right to rehabilitation in the case of murder?

One thing that bothers me is that is no concern of holding criminals to account for their crimes. The anger is simply directed at those calling for criminals to be punished. Why is that?

Great post, Sanna. That’s pretty much what I was trying to articulate but failed.

I’m speaking for myself only here but the answer to Fred’s question is that I don’t like that people are killed. And victims of crime usually get a lot of sympathy (and that’s good). It’s very obvious that criminals need to be hold accountable, so I tend to use all my energy against taking the punishment over-board. Because for some reason killing people is OK according to some.

Fred Fry:

“How about in favor of the victim?”

That’s what I meant. In this case the punisher IS the “victim”, which even you should have understood. If we talk about eye-to-eye punishment, then in what sense is the “victim” different from the “punisher”?

You are really not the right person talking about somebody else not being intelligent are you? Given that you don’t understand this basic fact. Poor Fred.

“The punishment should outway the crime.”

So the death penalty “outways” (in a correct way) your fucking car? The 800 (?) lousy dollars you spent “outways” a persons life. Fuck off and get a life, Fred Fry.

“Otherwise the slogan ‘crime does not pay’ would not be true. ”

Could you – given your “superb intelligence” (in respect to my own non-existent one) explain wtf. this means? You are saying that if we don’t execute “criminals” who cause 800 dollars worth of harm, then the message “crime pays” is sent out to potential criminals. Are you insane, Fred Fry.

“If it was not severe then punishment would simble be the cost of doing business, like it is now.”

What – oh genious Fred – would it be if crimes would be punished more severely?

“That’s not possible. I did not detect that you had any to insult. I did detect the whiff of alcohol.”

Well I believe that I have more (intelligence) than you, asshole. And why don´t you put that bottle away, if it gets in the way of your writing. I mean, people who detect “whiffs of alcohol” from VCRs (or LCDs) are either delusional, or otherwise in need of a visit to the doctor.

So go and see one (doctor) Fred. We all (?) hope it’s not something life-ending.

So Fred are you in favour for mutalation of various body parts or is it just plain death that makes you horny?

In my opinion all who enable their government to attack another nation(s) and murder and rape it’s citizens like the USA has and is doing should be executed on account of assistance in murder (for not overthrowing their own government they are basically giving the green light for such action, enablement)
.

All libertarians and right-wingers, neo-con idiots should also be executed for they are a grave danger to mankind, call it preventive action.

Why-o-why won’t the world comform to my beliefs, I wonder why.
I do suggest kristian and Fred to visit Saudi-Arabia there you can find the justice system that pleases you.

Wow it sure takes very little for you pacifists to get all violent.

“So the death penalty “outways” (in a correct way) your fucking car? The 800 (?) lousy dollars you spent “outways” a persons life. Fuck off and get a life, Fred Fry.”
– Thank you for your comment. It tells volumes about the type of person that you are.
– Look at who does not understand. It is the act of destroying another’s possessions. It is the act of not respecting other people. I can get along with anyone as long at they are not preying on others. My wife asks, “Since when is $800 not alot of money to a Finn?”

“Well I believe that I have more (intelligence) than you, asshole.”
– Good. Try using it.

You know, I would love to see all the jails empty and nobody executed. However, that is not up to me, it is up to the criminals to follow the rules. It is their breaking of the rules that gets them in trouble. Not me.

Thomas,
Have you been to jail and if so for what?
What is your degree in? Are you a socialist or communist? Are you a believer of class warfare?

“Why-o-why won’t the world comform to my beliefs, I wonder why.
I do suggest kristian and Fred to visit Saudi-Arabia there you can find the justice system that pleases you.”
– I have been to the middle east. And no, I do not approve of the Saudi-style of law enforcement. The US style is fine, it just needs a couple tweaks to it.
– The world can’t conform to your beliefs. A world full of liberals? That would be something to see. You can use the US cities as an view into that type of world. They consume everything. they produce nothing but garbage. They have no children and those they do are aborted. There is no need for war as the society would die off on it’s own. At least it would be a green planet that was left behind.

Sanna,
It is not I who cannot hold an intelligent conversation. At least you’ll be safe as long as your opinion is in line with their agenda.

Not me:

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A 14-year-old boy who was throwing eggs at cars along with two other teenagers was shot and killed by someone who had been in a sport utility vehicle that was hit, police said.

Danny Crawford was killed by a gunshot wound to his upper body, Franklin County Coroner Brad Lewis said. He died in an alley on the city’s west side early Saturday, authorities said.

The teens were throwing eggs at cars when an SUV that was struck chased them, Detective Tim Huston said. The vehicle stopped and several gunshots were fired, he said.

Police were looking for the shooter, who fled in the SUV, Sgt. Dana Norman said. The SUV believed to be involved was found a short time later near where Crawford died.

The other teens were not hurt, police said. – CNN

So where did this kid make a mistake? To egg cars, egging the wrong one, or not having an escape plan? This kid broke the law and initiated events that resulted in his death. And now some poor fool will end up in jail because of this kids stupidity.

A 16-year-old Woodbridge boy is dead this morning after an early-morning traffic stop on Interstate 95.

Virginia State Police stopped a vehicle speeding northbound on Interstate 95 at 3:19 a.m. and arrested the 16-year-old driver on DUI charges and for driving without a license, according to Virginia State Police Sgt. Terry Lickliter.

There was a second unknown passenger in the car as well.

The driver was handcuffed and placed in the front passenger seat of the police car while the officer searched the stopped vehicle, said police.

The driver was somehow able to get out of the police car and jumped from the Occoquan River Bridge.

Sad.

I can’t believe we’re even debating this. We live in societies that tacitly approve the destruction of private property. Those who are most likely to commit such acts are the same ones who can’t be punished by making them pay for the damage—because they have no money! Nor do they care!

Sure, teenagers getting shot by a motorist is tragic, both for the teens’ families and for the motorist. I don’t support automatically executing someone in that case, but I can’t help but wonder if this behavior could have been deterred by Three Strikes. At very most, I hope the motorist is sentenced to ‘community service’, teaching other teens about the dangers of throwing eggs at cars.

Even here in Europe, we can look at hooligans who ‘protest’ and damage things….. I don’t have a problem when they throw cobble stones at police or whatever. In fact, that can be fun for both, hooligans and police alike.

But, if a stone lands in the windshield of a private vehicle, home or it hits a private individual, then the thrower should face a choice: Either, surrender and pay for the damage, or he should get arrested and have one strike (re: Three Strikes) applied toward his criminal record. After three strikes, he gets executed. Fair? I think so.

Just to re-clarify what I’ve stated throughout this discussion, I’m not in favor throwing people into dungeons, torturing them or even ‘humanely’ incarcerating them for long periods of time. And I’m not in favor of raising penalties for ‘accidental’ crimes, like car crashes, etc. I’m pretty sure we have those under control, at least here in Europe. But, willful destruction of private property should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

Naturally we can make all sorts of specious arguments about how Fred should (800e deductible and lost time notwithstanding) claim the loss on his insurance. But, then all of our insurance costs will increase. Not to mention our quality of life, since we’ve not deterred it from happening again—in fact, we’ve tacitly approved it. We should have insurance for falling tree branches and such, and not for theft and destruction by delinquents.

Kristian -

I for one do not share your stark belief in private property. It’s just stuff. And I believe you can afford a LOT of stuff compared to most people since you’re so afraid of people finding out your wealth. Here’s a hint: Don’t ever become rich. It comes with great responsibility.

And now some poor fool will end up in jail because of this kids stupidity. – Fred

No, because of his own stupidity. Don’t you think he should be executed?

I for one do not share your stark belief in private property. It’s just stuff. And I believe you can afford a LOT of stuff compared to most people since you’re so afraid of people finding out your wealth.

Actually, I’m afraid of people finding-out my *lack* of wealth.

But, I’m even more afraid of people—especially those in other countries, with whom I conduct business—thinking that I’m foolish enough to live in Finland, a country that publishes the private financial information (julkiset verotiedot) of its citizens.

Therefore, I always take-on work contracts outside of Finland. I simply move away and change my tax home. It’s a legal way to avoid airing details about my private financial matters.

“Don’t you think he should be executed?”
– No. The kid threw the first ‘stone.’ It was his foolishness in thinking that nobody would throw something back. While the Suv driver overreacted it might not be such an overreaction as you might think. In Ohio as in NY cars have been targeted with gunshots, cinder blocks, bricks and all sorts of crap being thrown from overpasses and from the side of the road. One woman was recently killed by a pumpkin thrown through her windshield in NY. Other pumpkin attacks in NY have felony charges waiting for the teens who did the damage as their attacks generated thousands of $$s in damages to the new cars they targeted. All fun and games right?

“I can’t believe we’re even debating this. We live in societies that tacitly approve the destruction of private property.”
– Shocking, isn’t it. As is the hostility against those for the protection of private property. You can bet that it’s our fault for not embracing socialism like they do.

Fred -

You are defending the killer by saying that 1) he didn’t start it and 2) what he did could be understood better looking at the big picture.

This might be shocking to hear but usually every crime case has a bigger picture than what we learn about them on the news. Maybe that kid who egged the car had a friend who was ran over by an SUV. Maybe even that same SUV. Maybe the guy inside raped his sister. It could be anything, we will never find out. It’s an egg dammit. He was 14 dammit. This killer needs some psychiatric help – but there’s no point executing him.

84. Badger,
In a case like this it really should not take so long to convict and then carry out the sentence. The reason it takes so long to execute someon is because those who are against the punishment get involved and drag out the process – Fred Fry
Its called due process. The amount of consideration, and the weight of evidence, should be equivalent to the seriousness of both the crime and the punishment. We do not live in an age of kangaroo courts in Europe.

And once again, you miss the point. Please read beyond the first couple of lines of my posts.

89. “Imagine if I had broken into your house and killed you. Would you whine here.”

- Good luck trying. I am prepared for intruders. My comments on this threat should leave no doubt about that. – Fred Fry

87. (I am not a libertarian.) – Fred Fry

No kidding.
*takes a quick look at Fred Fry’s blog*
Ah. I apologise for assuming you were a libertarian. So it’s only Phil who is betraying his principles then.

90. The thing here is that no one discusses the death penalty as a wider problem concerning the role of justice in a nation state, but everyone is referring to single crimes. – Sanna
I like to think I tried (ref comment 28). I just got ignored. Mudslinging is more interesting than reasoned debate for some people.

90. The wider problem is that this death penalty system gives the right to decide over the INDIVIDUAL’s life to the STATE. – Sanna
Well said, with you 100% on that one.

-BM

In other judicial system news, we learn that, “A record 7 million people – or one in every 32 American adults – were behind bars, on probation or on parole by the end of last year, according to the Justice Department. Of those, 2.2 million were in prison or jail, an increase of 2.7 percent over the previous year, according to a report released Wednesday.” In addition, 60 people were executed in 2005.

As a direct result of all this strict discipline, the United States is now the safest place to live in the whole wide world. Isn’t it about time we Finns copied their judicial system in its entirety, so we too could be safe like them?

Interestingly, vandalism is more of a European phonomenon that doesn’t seem to exist in the states. The whole anarchist class-evny sentiment is mostly absent there—or it’s simply not thought-of as such.

Generallym, America needs to stop jailing people for drug dealing/using. Rather it should concentrate more on the essentials: theft, burglary, violence, murder, sodomy etc.

“The whole anarchist class-evny sentiment is mostly absent there—or it’s simply not thought-of as such.”
– That’s because in the US you have to pay for your college education so there is an incentive to get it over with so you can start paying back the loans. You don’t see many students in the US n their late 20′s with no job experience.
– You also don’t see the majority of kids running loose without accountability in their mid-teens. “It’s 10 PM. Do you know where your child is?” Should be asked in Europe.

Forget the punishment. You really don’t want the police to even be looking for you.

A teenager accused of robbing a student of two new Playstation 3s on the day the popular game consoles were introduced was shot to death by police sent to arrest him. Peyton Strickland, 18, was killed Friday at a house he shared with three roommates, New Hanover County Sheriff Sid Causey said. “If this boy would’ve come to the door, opened the door, we probably wouldn’t be talking,” the sheriff said Sunday.

Roommate Mike Rhoton said Strickland was unarmed, but may have been holding a video game controller whenhe went to the door as it was bashed in by officers.

Authorities promised Monday to fully investigate the fatal shooting. “No one is above the law and no one is beneath its protection,” District Attorney Ben David said. He declined to discuss details of the case.

The State Bureau of Investigation is examining the case and three deputies on the team were placed on paid leave, normal practice whenever officers fire their weapons, Causey said.

Arrest warrants alleged that Strickland, a student at Cape Fear Community College, and a University of North Carolina-Wilmington student stole two PlayStation units from another UNC-Wilmington student that day. The sheriff said the robbery victim had waited three days in line to buy two Playstation 3 units for $641 each at a Wal-Mart. He was unloading the units at his campus apartment when one man beat him to the ground while another took the PlayStations, Causey said.

Clearly an accident, but because this kid decided to take something from someone else instead of buy one of his own he is now dead. All for beating up a kid and stealing a game player. And one was not good enough, they needed to take both of them.

Fred Fry:
- No. The kid threw the first ’stone.’

Reety-righty. So all criminals should be executed (including 8 year-old kids), except murderers if the victim e.g. made a face at them.

Other pumpkin attacks in NY have felony charges waiting for the teens who did the damage as their attacks generated thousands of $$s in damages to the new cars they targeted. All fun and games right?
…
- You also don’t see the majority of kids running loose without accountability in their mid-teens. “It’s 10 PM. Do you know where your child is?” Should be asked in Europe.

Like, uh-huh, d00d. Pass the bong.

- That’s because in the US you have to pay for your college education so there is an incentive to get it over with so you can start paying back the loans. You don’t see many students in the US n their late 20’s with no job experience.

Wow, I never knew that ikiteekkarit are responsible for all the vandalism. Every day you learn new things in the strange and wonderful world of Fred Fry.

Franklin,

The crime rate in the US cities is not the crime rate in the rest of the US. Most parts of the US probably have a lower crime rate than in Finland.

Look in another direction for your bong. I don’t do illegal drugs.

Fred Fry Most parts of the US probably have a lower crime rate than in Finland.

And most parts of Finland certainly have a lower crime rate than the US. What’s your point?

It’s an awkward comparison between the US and Finland, especially regarding their main cities……

Generally, the parts of American cities, which have all the crime, are characterized by certain ethnic compositions. But, aside from those ethnically dense parts—which can easily be avoided—there’s probably less crime—especially vandalism and graffiti—in American cities, than in Helsinki.

Generally, there’s very little graffiti in America these days. It was a fad in the 70′s and early 80′s, but then it moved here to Europe…….and thanks to our tacit approval, it stayed. Vandalism is also rare in the US, whereas it seems rather common here. But I guess theft happens everywhere.

America’s sprawling suburbs are probably a mix, regarding crime. We don’t really have those types of suburbs here, so it’s hard to compare.

Rural and semi-rural areas are probably exactly the same.

Fred Fry:

“Thomas,

Have you been to jail and if so for what?”

Is that any of your concern, asshole?

“What is your degree in?”

Is that any of your concern, asshole? But, regardless of what my degree “is in” it matches your academic credentials. That much I can say.

“Are you a socialist or communist?”

Are you an idiot or a moron?

Are you a believer of class warfare?

Well I believe in fighting against idiots who claim somebody doing 800 dollars worth of damage are worthy a death penalty. If that makes me “a believer of class warfare”, then so be it.

Kristian:

“Generally, there’s very little graffiti in America these days.”

Hallelujah!

Now, beside the fact that removing graffiti costs some money, in what sense have the graffitiless America become more attractive? Seriously. I’m not going to inhibit any future visit to the U.S. because they have SUCH A NASTY GRAFFITI PROBLEM. The current idiot president – however – he is a much worse problem. And I’M NOT going to visit the U.S. while he’s in power.

And how is this happiness-guaranteeing “graffitilessness” properly measured? Are there some kind of official “graffiti-pollers” going about town in Helsinki, New York … Or are you simply basing yourself on your own, narrow, observations.

The current idiot president – however – he is a much worse problem.

You mean ‘Monkey Face?’

And how is this happiness-guaranteeing “graffitilessness” properly measured? Are there some kind of official “graffiti-pollers” going about town in Helsinki, New York … Or are you simply basing yourself on your own, narrow, observations.

My own, narrow observations, of course

Helsinki is much better than many central European cities. I think we have more respect for both public and private property, here in Finland. It could be better, but relative to the rest of our continent, it’s not bad.

Kristian:

You mean ‘Monkey Face?’.

No? I mean George W. Bush. I’m so humourless it hurts.

Fred Fry:

“My wife asks, “Since when is $800 not alot of money to a Finn?””

You can tell your wife that the next time some poor bastard recieves the DEATH PENALTY due to damage done to your or your wife’s fucking car, then you can contact Phil, and I’ll pay for the damages, if it saves somebody’s life.

You see, Fred, you and your wife may think what you like, but there are people in Finland that are not like YOU. Your 800 lousy dollars aren’t enough for me to allow a DEATH SENTENCE.

No? I mean George W. Bush. I’m so humourless it hurts.

Ha

Seriously though, if you visit the states after King George’s reign, and you happen to see graffiti as you’re driving along…. Then, most likely you’re in one of those ethnically dense neighborhoods. Turn around and drive the other way………fast!

Some friends of ours from Germany found out the hard way, when taking a shortcut in DC. They described it as Rwanda.

“Some friends of ours from Germany found out the hard way, when taking a shortcut in DC. They described it as Rwanda.”

Kristian,
I have friends who when they first moved to DC went to “Southeast”. Within minutes of coming out of the metro undercover police stopped them and drove them out straight of the neighborhood. Judging by your description, I expect that your friends ended up in the same neighborhood.

Thomas,
What is the appropriate punishment for thieves who break into cars? Don’t like my suggestion, what’s your? Community service? What?

Fred Fry:
I have friends who when they first moved to DC went to “Southeast”. Within minutes of coming out of the metro undercover police stopped them and drove them out straight of the neighborhood.

Even when you have the death penalty, which stops all crime. How strange. There are no off-limits neighbourhoods in Helsinki, even though some are pretty “ethnically dense” these days.

Ethnically dense in Helsinki? Sure, ethnic Finns maybe.

I predict that, within the next half-century, America will be renamed ‘lil Africa.’ Fred and his family will move to Finland well before that happens.

Ethnically dense in Helsinki? Sure, ethnic Finns maybe.

Get out of your Espoo foxhole and take a walk on Mogadishu Avenue one of these days.

I predict that, within the next half-century, America will be renamed ‘lil Africa.’

It’s not the black people who are breeding like rabbits. It could be, though, that Spanish is soon the only official language.

Yeah, all those Indians who were driven southward—and later the Mexicans during the Mexican-American War—are coming back to reclaim their land. Fred, you’d better have a good exit plan, just in case

Where’s Mogadishu Avenue (a question only an Espoolainen would ask) ?

Hey, each US city has a very sizable slave colony attached to it. Helsinki can’t possibly be that ethnically dense, eh?

Where’s Mogadishu Avenue (a question only an Espoolainen would ask) ?

I tried to look it up in kartta.hel.fi, but it so far it’s only listed as Rastilantie.

Fred Fry:

“Thomas,
What is the appropriate punishment for thieves who break into cars? Don’t like my suggestion, what’s your? Community service? What?”

I don’t know what “is the appropriate punishment for thieves who break into cars”. I don’t know what “is the appropriate punishment for thieves who break into your wife’s car”.

Whatever it is, it should minimise the COST to society as whole. A death penalty has severe costs, especially indirectly, and to completely innocent people (e.g. children).

But this much I know: Your 800 dollars are not worth anybodys’ life. And – secondly – we don’t need – U.S. imported – fried Fred’s here. There’s enough mean, egoistic, hateful and stupid people here as it is.

————————
“Even when you have the death penalty, which stops all crime. How strange. There are no off-limits neighbourhoods in Helsinki, even though some are pretty “ethnically dense” these days.”
————————
– DC has no death penalty, like other high-crime cities. It is a state’s right to decide if it will allow the death penalty (in accordance with Federal Limits.)
– At least in the US, we have no “no-go” areas for the police. (unlike in France) While I would not roam around Southeast Washington, DC, that is basically the only place I would not go in the US.
– Guns are banned and DC has high gun crime, unlike other states that permit gun ownership. It is how the local authorities deal with crime and criminals. DC has an apologist/forgiving attitude for criminals. High crime is the result.

————————
“But this much I know: Your 800 dollars are not worth anybodys’ life. And – secondly – we don’t need – U.S. imported – fried Fred’s here. There’s enough mean, egoistic, hateful and stupid people here as it is.”
————————
– Come on. Be a man. What is a crime like that worth to you? If someone broke into your car and the police caught him, what kind of punishment should he get? Fine, go ahead and jump over my suggestion, but provide a solution. Crapping over other people’s suggestions don’t solve problems. Should I just keep lowering the punishment until you say ok.
– By the way. Murders often kill for much less than $800. Juha here killed three people over a bycycle………

Oh yes.
– Finland survived me living there for 3+ years and I’ll be back and when I do I will most likely run for local office. Mayor of Helsinki maybe.

Fred Fry:

“- Come on. Be a man. What is a crime like that worth to you? If someone broke into your car and the police caught him, what kind of punishment should he get?”

OK Asshole, here’s a suggestion:

In the general case 20 days worth of fine + damages. + I think the state should guarantee all costs of the victim (i.e. I think that you shouldn’t have to pay insurance for cases like this – I’ll rather see the TAX-PAYERS do it. YES more taxes, but this I support wholeheartedly). This I believe is an improvement that should be implemented.

In your case: I think the same. See I believe in EQUALITY in case of many things, including justice. Thus, even assholes should be treated equally, when it comes to treatment in front of crime.

But, I think that publically suggesting the death penalty for minor crimes should also be made a crime. And for your idiotic suggestions put forward here, I suggest as punishment an equal fine as the one I suggested for the car-molester who attacked your wife’s car. Should you – however – recurrently behave in this manner, I suggest giving you persona-non-grata status, to hinder you from polluting the minds of the children in this country.

“Oh yes.
- Finland survived me living there for 3+ years and I’ll be back and when I do I will most likely run for local office. Mayor of Helsinki maybe.”

Good luck. You’ll need it.

Thomas,

“I think the state should guarantee all costs of the victim”

And just where is the criminal punished?

Thanks for your input and the suggestion of suppressing my right to free speech. (“I think that publicly suggesting the death penalty for minor crimes should also be made a crime.”)

I think.

You can save the profanity for someone else. I have been called much worse and by persons close enough to to act on their anger. Sp your prattle just rolls off my back.

One more bad kid:

The victims were cats, not people.

But crushing and torturing them is the kind of crime that shocks the conscience, Orange County Court Judge Nicholas DeRosa said yesterday. That’s why he sentenced Michael Melfi, a skinny, baby-faced 19-year-old from Washingtonville, to the maximum for his role in a cat-killing rampage at the Blooming Grove Humane Society’s animal shelter. After a trial this summer in Orange County Court, a jury convicted Melfi of burglary and aggravated animal cruelty, felonies, and criminal mischief and criminal trespass, misdemeanors.

He was sentenced yesterday to 2 to seven years in state prison. The judge handed down the same sentence in August to 21-year-old Michael Bornhoeft, who also took part in the 2004 rampage.

“It does shock the conscience,” DeRosa said. “It is an appalling display of violence, even though it wasn’t directed at human beings.”

It’s all fun and games until you get sent to prison for 2-7 years.

“I’m sorry for what happened, but I don’t deserve this, Your Honor,” he told the judge.

I bet he is sorry. But he should have thought about the cats before he killed them. Now he gets to think about it behind bars.

What is the financial (replacement) cost for a person’s cat?

What is the financial (replacement) cost for a person’s cat?

Laws against cruelty to animals are not based on the financials. But understanding the difference between a car and a cat seems to exceed your capabilities.

————————
Laws against cruelty to animals are not based on the financials. But understanding the difference between a car and a cat seems to exceed your capabilities.
————————
I understand the similarities. Both have an owner. The cat crime was a felony. The person(s) who broke into my car also broke into 6 others that night, also would/should have been charged with a felony and received at least one year in jail.

I also understand the differences. Pet owners have strong connections to their pets. The death of a person’s dog or cat is a very traumatic experience to the same level as losing a loved one. Does that make this kid guilty of murder? Looking at it this way, perhaps 7 years was not a suitable punishment for killing cats, in combination with the other crimes he did. Yes, they were in a pound, but no telling if they had an owner somewhere who now has no chance of getting their pet back.

Dogs and cats are forever friends!

[i]I bet he is sorry. But he should have thought about the cats before he killed them. Now he gets to think about it behind bars.[/i]

And who knows what kind of a person he will be when he’s released. Maybe he’ll upgrade to killing people instead of animals. My point is that punishment doesn’t always work. Rehabilitation should be given a real chance.

“Rehabilitation should be given a real chance.”

Well sure, but in combination with punishment. At least spending time in jail ensures that they show up for their therapy or whatever type of session they need. Many prisoners in the US work while in prison, as a way of building discipline and job skills. then there is the parole system where you are let free early but do need to report back in for supervision.

I think in many cases rehabilitation alone is just taken as a joke by people, especially if they already know others who were assigned and blew it off. One of my co-workers was one of 10 who was cited for trespassing. The judge let them off easy with community service. They all had to return to court to document that they did it. He did not, but he was the only one who bothered to return. The judge gave him another month to clear his time and then convicted the others.

In DC, the police had a meeting with child offenders and their parents. Over half did not show up. Some showed up without their kids, explaining that they did not know where they were. It’s a mess.

It’s kind of like the three strikes. The family finds out that there is a problem with the first strike. How about the family doing some rehabilitation on their own. You know, talking some sense into your loved one. Then with the second strike, how about leaning on them. Helping them. After all, if their family does not care, why should anyone else.

Not that the US rehabilitation system doesn’t need improvement, there are options available to people, but they need to want it. There is the problem.

Fred Fry:

“And just where is the criminal punished?”

Guaranteeing is not the same thing as “paying everything, no questions asked”. I really thought I wouldn’t have to explain basic facts such as this to bold people claiming somebody doing some damage to a car deserve the death penalty.

Say your car gets stolen (as mine did). Say you have insurance (as I did). Say the person stealing your car wrecks up your car (as the person who stole my car did), i.e. it gets “written off”.

What does this mean. The car thief in question was caught. At the time of the trial (which – in my case – was held in a town 1 hrs traveling from Helsinki), I had basically two options. Go to the trial, to try get compensation for my costs (i.e. the self risk of the insurance. I don’t know how much you need to pay if you want to avoid that). That is, because the prosecutor doesn’t handle financial claims of victims, only the the “criminal act” itself. Thus, if you want compensation, you need to travel (at your own cost – unless your a vitness – which I wasn’t, since I did not see the act of stealing the car, and the the car thief in question was more or less caught in action) to the trial, and make your claim (your insurance losses + costs for participating at the trial). Now the car thief in question was on trial for something like 60 car thefts at one go. He was penniless (that much the prosecutor told me when I called). Thus no compensation was to be expected, if I bothered paricipating at the trial.

The other option was: just swallow your loss. That’s what I cose.

I don’t see why the state couldn’t act as a guaranteer in situations like this. The state would simply take on the role of “creditor” in cases like this, and the “debtor” would be responsible to the state. Or at least they could put forward the claims for benefits of victims at the trial.

Is this too difficult to grasp Fred Fry?

But regardless of this, I’m not claiming that the guy should have been executed.

Fred -

Nice post. I wasn’t saying that there should be no punishment though. Never really heard anybody supporting that idea.

I’ve been thinking about the prison system a lot lately. Maybe our prisons are exactly the opposite of what they ought to be. Could it be possible to have a prison that makes the inmates “softer” instead of “harder”? I know it sounds like a utopia but I can imagine that a small time crook would only become bitter and hateful towards society in jail. No idea how this should be done of course.

WHITES UNITE!

END THE MULTI-CULT NIGHTMARE ONCE AND FOR ALL!

DEATH TO TRAITORS!!!

In The Awakening of White America (THE WHITE WORLD!!!), Wolf 14/88!!!

Al consumo critico antiracket l

Not much on my mind lately, but that’s how it is. My life’s been dull these days, but such is life. I haven’t been up to much recently.