I’ve mostly sought work outside of Finland because the pay was higher, so I can’t comment directly on nepotism within private industry here in Finland. It does exist in Europe though. Offhand, I can only think of a few jobs I’ve gotten without knowing someone beforehand….or knowing someone who knows someone. But, I’ve seen lots of people get hired without this advantage too.

In Finland, the idea of handing-out contracts sans competitive bidding seems to follow the general attitude toward spending. For example, we go to dinner and toss-away 45-euros without asking whether we got our money’s worth. Or we pay 22-euros for a men’s short haircut and don’t question the price. As long as we have enough money left-over to buy the next 5-euro beer.

And we do the same with our government for that matter: We give them most of our earnings and don’t scrutinize whether we get our money’s worth in return. We just figure that they know what they’re doing with it….and that’s how it’s always been.

I guess with nepotism it’s largely a matter of choosing to associate with people who seem familiar. In my case, as a job-getter, I’ve always felt more comfortable working for someone to whom I can relate. So, I maybe this selection process also works in reverse.

But, to be a foreigner and feel like you have limited opportunity…. I’ve been a foreigner pretty much everywhere I’ve worked and never felt that way. In fact, I’ve been offered more responsibility than I wanted to take-on. Gotta find a niche’. I think that’s the secret. Use the foreignness to your advantage. If the company doesn’t realize—or can’t utilize—your strengths, then move on.

@1 right on bro! Couldn’t agree more with you…

” And we do the same with our government for that matter: We give them most of our earnings and don’t scrutinize whether we get our money’s worth in return. We just figure that they know what they’re doing with it….and that’s how it’s always been.”

So why is this so difficult for Finns to do ?

“One thing that is definitely not considered corruption by Transparency International’s standards is “nepotism” which is defined as “favoritism shown to relatives or close friends by those in power”. In my experiences here, Finland has a serious problem with this and it’s rarely addressed. ”

So those no-bid Iraq contracts to Halliburton and 21 billion dollars wasted (nobody knows where the money went) are NOT nepotism? Big US companies have basically killed most of the mom-and-pop businesses in America with their nepotism and backroom dealings, Wal Mart being the biggest killer. Typically, they drop their prices below cost in order to wipe out local businesses and later on raise their prices again and rehire some, not all of the now unemployed local people with minimum wage or close to it.

Yes, Finland is a small country but I would say optimally sized country along with other Nordic countries and maybe Australia and Canada. Remember, USA population back in 1776 was about four million people…

Nowadays, our industry sectors from shipyards and paper mills to telecommunications are facing much tougher international competition than ever before and still are doing very fine, thank you very much.

Our living standard depends pretty much on export sectors. Small home markets and huge global markets means that we have to compete like hell with others in order to survive. For example, the biggest cruise ships and even oil rigs are made here. Now the GDP growth for this year is going to be almost five percent. It is not just Nokia.
Of course there are problems like our underdeveloped service sectors and a few de facto monopolies.

It is the US that has lost it’s competitive edge almost totally, where are the American made consumer products etc etc? Ford and GM are in the toilet and Americans have been mainly busy selling houses to each other. That credit bubble has masked the real problems until recently. We are not the one having huge trade deficit and debts skyrocketing like there is no tomorrow.

So those no-bid Iraq contracts to Halliburton and 21 billion dollars wasted (nobody knows where the money went) are NOT nepotism?

Definitely conscription and nepotism. Using public office for personal gain.

Big US companies have basically killed most of the mom-and-pop businesses in America

I’d challenge you to find stats on this compared to Finland. I think the US has just as many, if not more percentage mom-and-pop businesses than Finland.

It is the US that has lost it’s competitive edge almost totally, where are the American made consumer products etc etc?

America has progressed to a service-based economy like Finland is. All that production is done elsewhere in cheaper countries. I reckon that’s a positive thing, not negative.

It is the US that has lost it’s competitive edge almost totally, where are the American made consumer products etc etc?

Tim—Take a look at nearly every piece of software on your computer. Oh, you use finnish/german designed SuSE Linux, like I do? Well, it’s now owned by american Novell

In fact, nearly every component of our information infrastructure is american owned.

I don’t mean to disagree with you entirely. I also think that america is a mess these days. But, I wouldn’t write it off completely. America has ample private funding and a garage-workshop inventiveness climate that we in Europe can only dream of.

But, I wonder how American companies would treat someone with a strong foreign accent. Would they hire their own for top-management positions or take a chance on the funky foreigner?

So why is this so difficult for Finns to do ?

It’s not. We’ve got this thing called democracy here. If people are not content they will change those in power.

Krisitian echoes pretty standard right-wing opinions, and , alas, most of the Finns think those right wingers just don’t really know what thay are talking about. AS a result they would like to change the people, but unfortunatley, because that’s not possible, they just have to remove themselves from the country.

Anyway, don’t take his opinions any more seriously than you would take any other partisan opinions.

“AS a result they would like to change the people, but unfortunatley, because that’s not possible”

People are changing slowly…I see less and less Pentti’s and Unto’s who think they state needs to take care of them

Yeah, I don’t really think of Kristian as a right-winger per se…..at least, most right-wingers wouldn’t think that of him. Then again, he’s not a left-winger either.

You know, I like talking about myself in 3rd person form. Makes me feel important

Yap, it’s nepotism like Phil is given a job at Nokia, but I’m not.

Finns are very proud of the fact that “business is decided in the sauna”,

If Finns were “very proud” of it, I’d think that someone said something good about it every once in a while.

all important decisions are made in the sauna,

I think you’d struggle to find anecdotal evidence for the assertion that important decisions are made in sauna at all.

nepotism is just a natural side-effect of a small, homogeneous society with very loyal people

Eh…what about Italy? Relatively big, as diverse as anything and with pretty low obedience towards authorities -yet I would think twice before calling it the most meritocratic place on Earth. And speaking of meritocracy, to me it’d sound more logical if countries with low level of social mobility (USA, UK) were said to suffer more from nepotism than those that with higher (i.e. the Nordics & Netherlands).

Not that I’d be claiming that Finnish big boys don’t favour their cronies -might be worth of a thought to think why we nonetheless are having less social mobility than Scandinavians. The tradition of conscription, sauna culture or slightly more conservative values, mayhaps?

Another thing. There’s that myth that in Finland the state is taking care of everything and everybody. Not quite. In Italy, France or Britain maybe so, but in Finland it’s the job of municipalities. Makes a clumsier punchline though, I admit.

And here’s the catch. We’ve got lots of public spending but it’s very decentralized, done in the local level. That makes people more keen on watching where their money goes and politicians/civil servants are less likely to waste it. If you have a look on the countries that are perceived to be ‘the least corrupt’ you’ll see that there are homogenous but that there’s also Switzerland, for example. It’s very diverse but has a long history of grassroot democracy with its cantons. So in my opinion the trick with public accountability is going local, and I’d rather call those top countries the most transparent, instead of the least corrupt.

Think about USA and its porky budget deficits. There’s comparatively little public expenditure but when there is it takes place mainly on the federal level. And up to this very day, the separation of powers in Washington didn’t really work out and GOP just sprouted the cash away.

Libertarians in the U.S. are the only group that recognizes this and aims to take power away from the politicians.

You think so? What about die-hard technocrats, worldwidely?

“I’d challenge you to find stats on this compared to Finland. I think the US has just as many, if not more percentage mom-and-pop businesses than Finland.”

This is just a cherished myth…

I am not sure about mom-and-pop ones, but the median size of enterprises in Finland is 5-6 employees, while it is 19-20 in the USA. The source? OECD statistics

no. 12

Concerning the median is 19 or 20 in the US versus 5 or 6 in Finland.

A median of 19 or 20 employees in the US might mean that there are alot of firms that have progressed from Mom and Pop operations into small enterprises where there are additional employees hired and specialization of labour exists.

A median of 5 or 6 in Finland seems to show that a job creation incubator system is not in place nourishing firms that are developing.

Rather, it seems like Finland has alot of nakki and other kiosks, hairdressers and barber shops, kebab and pizza restaurants and “management consultants” who are laid off salaried employees who can’t find a new full time job. Most of these don’t develop into larger enterprises creating additional employment.

Peter—that’s exactly it. The Finnish system is suited for large corporations. But, for smaller, otherwise budding, operations, there’s no real avenue for growth. That’s the problem with having a highly centralized economy that controls an enormous and disproportionate amount of our earnings.

I suppose the exceptions to the rule are high-margin enterprises like software development, management consulting, etc.

But, for lower-margin businesses it’s much more difficult to justify investing in expansion. First, due to Finland’s high-prices, the initial invesment is much greater. Then, it takes longer to realize a return because demand is constrained.

It’s too bad because these lower-margin business are specifically the ones that could potentially provide consumers with lower-priced goods and services. For that matter, many could even develop something for export.

Even those you mentioned (in #13) are completely overpriced here in Finland. But, their owners need to justify their investments somehow. Unfortunately, due to high taxation, discretionary income is very low in Finland. So these businesses suffer from reduced demand. Hence, they never acheive economies of scale and they need to raise the prices. It doesn’t really help anyone.

“you’ll see that there are homogenous but that there’s also Switzerland, for example. It’s very diverse but has a long history of grassroot democracy with its cantons. So in my opinion the trick with public accountability is going local, and I’d rather call those top countries the most transparent, instead of the least corrupt.”

In Switzerland the grassroot democracy and relative local autonomy is a direct result of diversity. People don’t want ‘others’ making decisions for them. Homogenity makes it far easier to maintain stable democracies.

I agree that you have much better chances of getting hired if you know somebody in the company. Part of the reason is that when a company is hiring a new employee, they want to get somebody who is qualified and a “hyvä tyyppi” (good guy). When you have someone inside the company recommending you, saying that “he is a good guy, I’ve known him for years” it has a very strong influence on the hiring process (depending on the size of the company and it’s recruitment methods). When you compare that to someone who nobody knows and you have only met once or twice for an interview, it is smaller risk hiring someone that somebody recommends for you.

Always when hiring somebody, you take a risk. It is quite difficult to get rid of employee that turns out to be wrong choise for the job. Also in that case you need to start recruiting process all over again. It is quite impossible to know how the new employee will fit into the role he or she is planned for. So, if someone says that “I know someone who would be perfect for this position” I would listen.

If I was asked if I know somebody for any open position within the company I work for, I would be very careful who to recommend. As I see it, also my reputation is on the line. My employer is putting his trust on me for new recruit. If I just recommend my friend who needs a job, but is not suited for the job, what would it say about my capability to make decisions.

Is it fair? I don’t know. But it is easier for the employer.

At the moment this issue is quite relevant for me. My contract in China is going to end soon and I want to come back to Finland (or to some other country that is not China). My resume is not very impressive (three years unemployment period prior to my current job) so my chances of getting a job are pretty slim. I don’t have extensive network of friends who could recommend me to any job, so I may have to go back to school at the age of 36. I have masters degree, but it seems to be pretty useless. Maybe I will apply for some school to learn welding. Secure job for at least next five years.

The reason why a lot of good decisions do get made in sauna is that it is a place where people can relax and just chat instead of trying to make decisions. It’s a perfect place for throwing out new ideas and discussing things without any pressure. There’s a lot of good in sauna for that kind of thing, it’s probably something similar to what people elsewhere do at golf field, except it doesn’t have to take all day. And it does have the nasty problem that it’s not easy to include both genders. I know that in some companies they’ve gone for swimsuited sauna bathing for this reason – and in some others people have tried to move the discussions to some other place.

There’s still one thing everyone should understand about this issue. It’s not so much that people make decisions in sauna, it’s much more that people who are in sauna chat about all kinds of things – and sometimes they end up throwing ideas about business. And with the relaxed environment it is much more likely that people are able to find solutions and ideas they all like. And if those people happen to be the highest management of a company, it’s easy to see what will happen next. It doesn’t have to be intentional, it just happens, unless you ban all business talk in sauna. It’s the quality of relaxed athmosphere on group dynamics, not so much cultural thing.

And yes, figuring out how to get such benefits without excluding people (like women) is a big and important problem.

ps. I do not agree with Phil, at all, about the claimed nepotism in Finland. Yeah, it is a lot easier to get a job as a software architect if you a) know what you are doing and b) know the person hireing you. But things are just the same in California. It’s a lot easier to find employment, funding, etc. if people know you and know you can be trusted. In fact, in Finland people seem to do this less, since recommendations are not as much used as they are elsewhere. Perhaps Phil could explain why he things there’s so much nepotism in Finland?

“And yes, figuring out how to get such benefits without excluding people (like women) is a big and important problem.”

Why? I don’t see it as such a big and important problem. I like women, but, thruthfully, I much rather prefer to conduct business with men. In fact, I find women distracting during work time.

But that distraction is nice when outside of work

Kristian, because it’s beneficial to have best possible people doing the jobs – and excluding 50% of potential employees based on gender is not the way to do that.

Of course, personally I have no problem whatsoever with somebody starting an all-males or all-women, or all-whatever company, if that makes them feel better and they can compete. Finnish law has some problems with that, though.

decisions made in sauna?

you sound like you’re having this conversation in the 1960ies!

and Phil, you make this nepotism sound like it’s purely invented in Finland. To me that’s natural that you trust people you already know. It’s a universal concept, so how come you define it as corruption?
Of course you were born and raised in a society that was living its fullest with affirmative action and treats its citizen with high-maintenance.

Finns are very proud of the fact that “business is decided in the sauna”, I’ve heard this regularly since I’ve arrived in this country. No wonder why women believe there’s glass ceiling in Finland if all important decisions are made in the sauna, where they’re not invited!

[snarky bitch] Somebody give the guy a medal. I hope you didn’t hurt your brain coming to that realization. [/snarky bitch]

Why? I don’t see it as such a big and important problem. I like women, but, thruthfully, I much rather prefer to conduct business with men. In fact, I find women distracting during work time.

Now that’s just pathetic. You find women distracting during work time? Where do you work? In a topless bar?

I swear, sometimes I feel like the 1970′s never happened when listening to you lot.

Anzi—I didn’t mean to imply that the distraction is necessarily physical….although that can be nice too

Actually, it relates more to interpersonal chemistry within the work environment.

Actually, it relates more to interpersonal chemistry within the work environment.

I have no idea what this means. Are you telling me that you have problems relating to women? Or women have problems relating to you? Or somehow your brain screams “MOTHER!MADONNA!WHORE!” instead of calmly stating “co-worker” every time you see a woman in your office? Please explain.

Physical distraction in the workplace happens. But if it happens in the form of coworkers staring at each others’ boobs and asses, we might have a problem.

Anzi—You are making it too complicated. Having women—such as girlfriend, relatives, etc.—in my life, is enough for me. Maybe that’s why I seek respite when I go to work

But, to be fair, I think many women feel the same way. It’s only natural.

But, to be fair, I think many women feel the same way. It’s only natural.

I guess I’m not one of them, then, because I still have no clue as to what you’re talking about. IMO and in my experience the best dynamics are found in places and situations where the genders are equally represented. It brings variety and fresh perspectives.

#25 Well, then you need to go whereever you feel most comfortable

But what if the place I want to work in has a guy like you who thinks that the fact that I have ovaries cramps his style and therefore chooses not to hire me? That would majorly suck.

Luckily, people who think like that are few and far between in my life. I like to keep it that way.

A libertarian should have no problem with nepotism. After all, it’s the company’s own business who they choose to hire.

There are all sorts of these tight, exclusive circles in Finnish industry. In such a small country, industries often have very few players, and these players form oligopolies.

Again, a libertarian should have no problem with this. And even if there is a problem, the MarketTM will fix it all.

Kristian:
I like women, but, thruthfully, I much rather prefer to conduct business with men. In fact, I find women distracting during work time.

From what I’ve read, Kristian, whenever you’re, um, distracted by women during your free time, a business transaction takes place…

#28

Ouch, nice one Franklin

Franklin—now, where did you read that?

But what if the place I want to work in has a guy like you who thinks that the fact that I have ovaries cramps his style and therefore chooses not to hire me? That would majorly suck.

Anzi—cheer-up! I really don’t think it’s something you need to worry about. It’s best to be flexible and realize that everyone sees things differently. There are many arrangements out there; I don’t think you’ll have trouble finding ones that fit for you.

And, seriously, despite what Franklin thinks, I’m really not such a bad guy

And, seriously, despite what Franklin thinks, I’m really not such a bad guy.

If you say so.

You’re so right “Freeridin´ Franklin”, these freedom lovers have EXTREME problems when it comes to defining what FREEDOM means.

Phil:

“And it makes sense for Finland, a small first-world country with a ridiculous amount of politicians (200 MPs for a nation of 5.2 million) each individually have very little power. When politicians have little power, they have fewer means to corrupt.”

IMHO, this opinion of yous is ridiculous. So, if Finland would adapt the U.S. ratio (which I assume is less RIDICULOUS) then we would have 10 MPs, and they would have 190 additional assistants. Or else we would have the U.S.-kind of democracy, where laws are passed, without the people passing the laws even knowing what the law proposals contain. Not to mention the fact that these potential 190 “additional assistants” would – potentially – be much more likely to be corrupted, since they are not elected.

“When politicians have little power, they have fewer means to corrupt. Libertarians in the U.S. are the only group that recognizes this and aims to take power away from the politicians.”

Yeah yeah. You libertarians are so clever. Like you. You write this little piece “complaining” about the fact that a certain – very subjective – “index” is ranking countries, in terms of “corruption” without considering “corporate corruption”. Then, in the next phrase, you say, “we libertarians are so much better than all other political movements, because we have figured out that corruption can be rooted out by taking power away from the POLITICIANS”. How is this genious strategy INVENTED by the “Libertarians in the U.S.” – with whom you have so much in common – going to deal with this corporate corruption that you are SOOO concerned about? I mean, aren’t they FOR the freedom of corporations?

If you don’t see a double standard here, I foresee problems for Nokia from the point of view of recruitement decisions made.

“In such a small country, industries often have very few players, and these players form oligopolies.”

Yeah, those BAD BAD oligopolies. But why is it that more or less EVERY – even global – “market” seems to become an oligopoly as it “matures”. I mean, in the industry you work in (as I’ve understood Nokia pays your bills), how many players are there? And this is – although it has “matured” fairly quickly – a relatively new “market” (what is it – 15 years), and seems to “oligoplise” even more (e.g. Ericsson-Sony wasn’t until quite recently). Or look at the car industry in the U.S. (what’s the number of players – does it exceed your definition of an oligopoly?). Or let’s talk about OS’s (commercial ones) for PC’s (a market created by IBM, somehow I believe they regret their decisions at the time). How many players are there on this market, where the “inbred” finns haven’t had any real saying (apart from a certain person having a significant role in starting the co-op that develops Linux, which is – basically – the only alternative to Windows. If it wasn’t for the actions – in co-operation with many others, so I’m NOT saying that he is THE man behind Linux, far from it – of this “inbred” finn – there would be a MONOPOLY right now, in terms of OS’s for PC’s). Or let’s talk about the “market” for PC processors (no finnish sauna clubs are to my knowledge responsible for the fact that AMD and Intel are the sole players on this “market”), or just about any hardware components for that matter. How many players are there on these HUGE global “markets”?

comma copulation:

“Always when hiring somebody, you take a risk. It is quite difficult to get rid of employee that turns out to be wrong choise for the job.”

OK, it’s a RISK (but also a POSSIBILITY) to hire someone. But in Finland there are first of all, these “trial periods” – often lasting 4 months or even more (?) – during which you can fire a person on that very same day. Furthermore – at least in a Euoropean context – “getting rid” of employees in Finland is in fact relatively simple. Contrary to what “free market lovers” seem to be claiming.

Kristian,

Your inability to focus around the presence of women indicates that you have a problem with them. Your patronizing comments to Anzi only confirms this. So much for men being the stronger sex LOL!

Thank God I work with men who are not only smart, but who respect people by the JOB they do (not gender).

You have a consistent habit of writing sentences that make no sense and that reveal an unwillingness to confront your own biases. “America is a mess” is another example. I live here, Kristian, and no, it’s not a mess. It’s doing quite well, thank you. Business is good, work is good, my neighborhood and schools are good, and the recent election results have me doing the happy dance.

It’s not “a mess.” It’s not a bad place. Good people live and work here.

AmeriikanEnkeli:

Your inability to focus around the presence of women indicates that you have a problem with them.
Your patronizing comments to Anzi only confirms this.

I will reiterate to you, that which I told Anzi:

“You are making it too complicated. Having women—such as girlfriend, relatives, etc.—in my life, is enough for me. Maybe that’s why I seek respite when I go to work

But, to be fair, I think many women feel the same way. It’s only natural.“
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Thank God I work with men who are not only smart, but who respect people by the JOB they do (not gender).

Thank whomever you want. But, to clarify, I did not make any statements—nor did I imply—anything related to respect or work performance. Generally, I respect anyone, unless they really make a point of proving they don’t deserve it. I think most people feel the same way.
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You have a consistent habit of writing sentences that make no sense….

Ok, fine. But, before we begin, can I assume that we can categorize all things that “make no sense” as those with which you disagree?
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…and that reveal an unwillingness to confront your own biases. “America is a mess” is another example. I live here, Kristian, and no, it’s not a mess. It’s doing quite well, thank you. Business is good, work is good, my neighborhood and schools are good, and the recent election results have me doing the happy dance.

Perhaps you don’t know it, but I have lived there too. In fact, I’ve lived in several other countries for extended periods of time. Also, you will notice that I was responding to Tim73′s post. I happen to agree with many things he writes. But, to keep things in context, lets’s look at the rest of what I wrote—all within the same post you referenced:

Take a look at nearly every piece of software on your computer. Oh, you use finnish/german designed SuSE Linux, like I do? Well, it’s now owned by american Novell”

But, since you are “doing the happy dance”, can I assume that you only see things from one perspective?
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By the way, nothing I wrote was intended to be patronizing toward Anzi. But, for further clarification, I will make an addendum, especially for you, AmeriikanEnkeli: Don’t worry or be judgemental about how others live. Simply, arrange your life the way it suits you best. This is the philosophy by which I live. Trust me, it works pretty well. Incidentally, that’s my Libertarian perspective

Sorry about the bad formatting above. I’ll try again—same content, hopefully better formatting….

AmeriikanEnkeli:

Your inability to focus around the presence of women indicates that you have a problem with them. Your patronizing comments to Anzi only confirms this.

I will reiterate to you, that which I told Anzi:

“You are making it too complicated. Having women—such as girlfriend, relatives, etc., in my life, is enough for me. Maybe that’s why I seek respite when I go to work

But, to be fair, I think many women feel the same way. It’s only natural.“
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Thank God I work with men who are not only smart, but who respect people by the JOB they do (not gender).

Thank whomever you want. But, to clarify, I did not make any statements—nor did I imply—anything related to respect or work performance. Generally, I respect anyone, unless they really make a point of proving they don’t deserve it. I think most people feel the same way.
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You have a consistent habit of writing sentences that make no sense….

Ok, fine. But, before we begin, can I assume that we can categorize all things that “make no sense” as those with which you disagree?
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…and that reveal an unwillingness to confront your own biases. “America is a mess” is another example. I live here, Kristian, and no, it’s not a mess. It’s doing quite well, thank you. Business is good, work is good, my neighborhood and schools are good, and the recent election results have me doing the happy dance.

Perhaps you don’t know it, but I have lived there too. In fact, I’ve also lived in several other countries for extended periods of time. Also, you will notice that I was responding to Tim73′s post. I happen to agree with many things he writes. But, to keep things in context, lets’s look at the rest of what I wrote—all within the same post:

“Take a look at nearly every piece of software on your computer. Oh, you use finnish/german designed SuSE Linux, like I do? Well, it’s now owned by american Novell“

“In fact, nearly every component of our information infrastructure is american owned.“

“I don’t mean to disagree with you entirely. I also think that america is a mess these days. But, I wouldn’t write it off completely. America has ample private funding and a garage-workshop inventiveness climate that we in Europe can only dream of.“

Is it all biased? Or is only the small part with which you disagree biased? Let’s keep in mind that I routinely mention both good and bad points of America. But I also comment on those of Finland, Europe or anywhere else that I have knowledge about. And I try to see both good and bad points of all political philosophies. I even posted many time that you’d be better-off with a Dem pres….but maybe with a Rep congress.

But, since you are “doing the happy dance”, can I assume that you only see things from one perspective?.
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By the way, nothing I wrote was intended to be patronizing toward Anzi. But, for further clarification, I will make an addendum, especially for you, AmeriikanEnkeli: Don’t worry or be judgemental about how others live. Simply, arrange your life the way it suits you best. This is the philosophy by which I live. Trust me, it works pretty well. Incidentally, that’s my Libertarian perspective