One would have to know what the estimate was based on.

But first of all, forest industry is a big part of Finland’s GDP. I suspect that’s a big part of it. Secondly, Finland’s climate is cold as a lawyers heart. Thirdly, population density is low in Finland, meaning longer transportation distances.

All sound reasons, Markku, though doubtless we could do better, perhaps by not leaving the PC on all night. I’m interested to know if those countries who BUY the Finnish paper or USE the Emirates’ oil (the UAE gets whacked 9.06 for its fossil fuel carbon dioxide emissions) have anything put on THEIR plate.

It seems to me somewhat unfair to penalise countries that supply the rest of the world with a commodity – like oil for instance – but not to hit the ones that use that oil. In many cases this will leave the impression that a country that is relatively undeveloped but with big-time natural resources (often owned lock, stock, and barrel by foreign interests) is a huge pain in the environmental ass.

I know the buck has to stop somewhere, but I hardly imagine Finland uses more than a fraction of the pulp and paper its mills turn out.

And, to make Phil happy, at least we aren’t eating from the load: Finland is in surplus, unlike a few other countries that must not be named.

Phil,
You’re missing a point or two here. First of all, we in Finland can easily find “7.6 hectares per person of ecologically productive land” for the current population. In most other countries they can’t. Whatever their ecofootprint is.

Secondly, how do you propose to solve this problem? Obviously, you moving back to the States wouldn’t solve this particular problem – but please don’t let it hold you back – if the US is in fact the second biggest killer of the earth. But then again, having a worthless no-good Gambian or whatever heroinee dealer deported back to wherever he can minimize his ecological footprint would, in fact, help to remedy this problem. Right?

“Okay, now I’m waiting to hear how it’s perfectly okay for Finland to do what they’re doing, meanwhile the U.S. is killing the earth…”

(good bait)

Well on this measure Finland is shown to be using more resources than the planet can sustain per capita and this demand should be reduced. As Finland has a small population and biocapacity per capita well in excess of it’s footprint it would be safe for the whole world to achieve Finland’s balance. (Yes it would be a world with a much smaller population).

As observed by Phil “meanwhile the U.S. is killing the earth” is true. The U.S has a massive total footprint at over 20% of the total footprint of all people on earth. The have a severe biocapacity deficit (they need twice the resources of their capacity). With such an unsustainable per capita footprint and enormous total footprint they are destroying the earth. If the world were to follow the U.S. example the ecological debt would rise to frightening levels with the collapse of much (if not most) of the natural resources that we depend on.

Wait. 5 cars, 2 boats, and one Finish Sauna. Yep I do get credit for my share of the footprint.

Finland could do better, but we are not using more capacity than we have, as almost all other countries do that. Also forestry is a big part, and that’s exported around the world. So even if we produce it, we don’t all use it. And as finland is a small country, big exports mean big numbers.

Well, we could stop selling paper of course…

And you could move back to your precious USA, I’m sure not many people would miss you. I’m really getting tired of your hostile aggressiveness against the country you live in. Nobody is forcing you to stay here.

@7 why? does talking about finland’s problems bother you or are you going to be like most people here in finland that just sit there and complain rather than to do something about it ?

I’m not sure what Phil DOES about it, short of complaining and lighting a fuse on this blog, but I tend to agree that “go home, then” is something of a weak response. I have written to WWF inviting them to shed some light on whether the users of Finnish paper or Emirates oil get penalised in their footprint rankings, or whether they are allowed to sleep easy at night simply because they are not EXTRACTING the stuff. I have also asked them to explain why they have not more dynamically brought forward the fact that certain countries have a serious biodeficit (in fact MOST developed countries vastly outrun their biocapacity), but have instead concentrated on pointing the finger at countries such as major forestry goods exporters (Canada, Finland, Sweden) or small oil-rich states (Kuwait, UAE) while ignoring the places that keep them in existence, such as small densely-populated developed countries like The Netherlands (ecological footprint 4.4, biocapacity 0.8). We’ll see how they respond.

Sometimes using “per capita” as a measurement unit doesnt work, and I think this is one of those times.

On the other hand, yougotit, using an aggregate figure would simply let off tiny spendthrift countries and point the finger unfairly at large ones who are attempting to live within their means. Hardly a better outcome, considering that both are made up of smaller or larger numbers of INDIVIDUALS. You would simply be allowing those in smaller or less densely populated units a free ride (are you listening, Foaminmadtwat?) at the expense of their larger neighbours, whose only sin might be the place they happen to have been born.

When I’m trying to think what kind of a person would leave USA and move to evil leftist Finland, only one word comes to my mind: Loser.

Heeeey??? What gives? I thought the Finnish people were all earthy crunchy and stuff. But, it turns out … you’re almost as bad we are???? This totally changes my views on The Great Nation of Finland.

By the way, I can’t POSSIBLY imagine why anyone would need 5 cars. Somes a bit excessive. (Maybe they were pulling our leg?) I don’t own a car, but I take the subway and hail taxis. Not as bad as driving myself, but it’s also not as good as walking or biking it.

All you have to do is road trip around Finland as we did last November to notice that the Lorax might have been written in Finland had Dr. Seuss ever visited here. The deforestation is on a pretty massive scale. Finns also seem to think that as long as they have their summer cottage that the environment must be A-OK which is a nice thought, but undoubtably not quite true. Love of nature doesn’t translate always into a respect for nature in the face of economic realities. Ask the northerners about the acid lakes….

funkybrownchick: you are not alone in wondering. Most people have Master Winter pegged as under the age to own anything much more than a tricycle or a bike with trainer wheels. However, the main thing is that – as he never tires of telling us – he is not in Finland, but in the US of A. So he is not among those contributing to these numbers. As any fool knows, we go everywhere by luminescent radioactive elk, with the children on similarly caesium-enriched reindeer.

That must be to all those saunas in Finland. Interesting that the Helsingin Sanomat article candidly talks about energy needed for keeping accommodations warm. Not a word is dropped on what Finnish saunas are doing to the environment. It would be interesting to see what the Finnish ecological footprint is when firing up saunas year round is factored out. But I assume such deliberations are fairly blasphemic.

kylmä totuus: “Most people have Master Winter pegged as under the age to own anything much more than a tricycle or a bike with trainer wheels.”

That’s insulting toward winter… I’m not most people, I’ve always thought that winter is an older conservative guy who has believed in the things he believes in for a long time.

Why couldn’t winter have five cars? Some people collect cars. Somehow I think those five cars aren’t this year’s model.

#14 Deforestation? Heck, people go around thinking that the forest owners live like a day before the last. When they do the final cuts somewhere, new trees are planted soon after. In 10-20 years there are young trees everywhere. Next final cut takes place after 80-100 years. It’s not like they cash-in and screw the future.

And what are these acid lakes? Finnish soil has little calcium and given the large humus content of the water, many lakes have low pH even naturally. I have been swimming in those without mysterious disappearance. You make it sound like we were living in Ruhr industrial area.

Incidently, that 7 hectares is about what you get when you divide the area of Finland (337030 km^2) with the number of people in Finland. In the US, there is about 3 hectares for everyone.

But anyway, I wouldn’t call those footprint calculations very scientific. I have seen lots of different values for Finns (that 7 hectares being by far the biggest), it all depends how you want to calculate it.

@12 I think the only loser around here is you. I have a better standard of living here than I did back in Colorado

“those five cars aren’t this year’s model.” yep. One is now 15 years old, still has the original A/C, and will cross 200,000 miles soon.

By the way this argument of Footprint, totally ignores GDP. Its takes the large ecko footprint to have a large GDP. If the USA did not use those resources the world would starve.

So your choice, here, you Finnish rulers of the free world, is blame the USA (Well you are good at that), or starve (Seems you will blame the USA for that as well).

Its your choice.

I hope the anti-US feelings would start to decline with such reports like this one.
I think that we’re the second fattest people in the world after the United States too; perhaps our standard of living is too high – people don’t even have to bother taking care of their own bodies anymore.

“By the way this argument of Footprint, totally ignores GDP. Its takes the large ecko footprint to have a large GDP. If the USA did not use those resources the world would starve.”

What on EARTH are you talking about, Winter? Is it any wonder that some people (“most people” seems to have offended Helsinkian’s delicate sensitivities) regard you as a rabid idiot non-savant? If you had taken even the barest look at the WWF Report that is being referred to here, you would see that whilst the developed world almost invariably does have a larger footprint than the developing world, there are substantial differences in the size of that footprint that are not determined by simple linkage to GDP/capita.

To take but one example, measure US GDP/capita against that of Switzerland and then measure the footprint. USA: 9.6ha/USD37,800, 2003 est.; Switzerland: 5.1ha/USD 32,800, 2003 est. If we then also consider water usage (and water is perhaps the scarcest natural resource of all), the figures are even more damning: USA 1,547 (16% of total national resources), Switzerland 358 (5% of total national resources).

You can substitute practically ANY developed country for Switzerland and you will still arrive at much the same result: consumption in the US is way over the norm value relative to per capita GDP.

Pages 20 and 21 (the latter refers to the same issue in terms of the Human Development Index) indicate the disparity all too clearly.

If anyone around here is guilty of “totally ignores”, it is not the WWF. Which is not to say that the Report is flawless by any means, as I tried to point out earlier. U.S. grain exports probably do NOT show up strongly enough in the loadings given to the countries that buy them, just as Finnish paper exports do not. The sad problem with the United States right now, however, is that it seems (grain aside), that the most common consignments leaving its East Coast ports are ancient wrecks heading for the West African used-car market, and the country as a whole is running a massive trade DEFICIT, and actively urging China on to become a bigger economy and wear bigger ecological boots.

#18: No, Antti, you have some issues with reality. Just admit it. Hfb is back, resistance is futile.

One thing I found counterintuitive: According to the article, “Finns scored a figure of 7.6 hectares per person of ecologically productive land”, but happily the “[t]he Finnish biocapacity figure is among the world’s highest at 12.0.” Yet, according to my quick calculation, Finland has roughly 6.41 hectares of land per capita (33’814’500 hectares divided by 5’274’820 Finns). If no one miscalculated something, apparently some hectares so very ecologically productive that they count as two.

If the USA did not use those resources the world would starve.

Typical WWF: always faulting the US for feeding the world’s poor.

So your choice, here, you Finnish rulers of the free world, is blame the USA (Well you are good at that), or starve (Seems you will blame the USA for that as well).

Yes, if we didn’t blame the US (what?), we’d starve (huh?). Excellent point, Winter (ha!).

Environmental experts at Yale and Columbia Universities have arrived to a different conclusion.

Finland ranks first in Environmental Sustainability Index.

http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/05-01-26-02.all.html

alexbafana:

“That must be to all those saunas in Finland. Interesting that the Helsingin Sanomat article candidly talks about energy needed for keeping accommodations warm. Not a word is dropped on what Finnish saunas are doing to the environment. It would be interesting to see what the Finnish ecological footprint is when firing up saunas year round is factored out. But I assume such deliberations are fairly blasphemic.”

Half the year those saunas do – as a side-effect – heat the houses. You can’t think about energy consumption without taking things as this into account. The same thing with computers, and even more e.g. refrigerators. If you use a refrierator in e.g. Texas, from an ecological point of view it’s vaste all year around. Instead you use energy to cool the rest of the apartment, partly also from the heat produced by the refrigerator, computer, …. In Finland using these appliances is simply taking away a part of the burden of the heating system. And e.g. refrigerators are – I believe – fairly “ecological” when used for heating.

Its sure sucks to have to stongest economy in the frakin world. But then when you all catch up, let me know. By the way low taxes did it.

Summer: There is actually nothing so very contradictory about the Yale/Columbia report. If you read this paragraph it makes perfect sense:

“Finland ranks first in the world in environmental sustainability out of 146 countries according to the latest Environmental Sustainability Index (ESI) produced by a team of environmental experts at Yale and Columbia Universities. The 2005 ESI, to be released at the World Economic Forum January 27 in Davos, Switzerland, ranks Norway, Uruguay, Sweden and Iceland two to five respectively. Their high ESI scores are attributed to substantial natural resource endowments, low population density, and successful management of environment and development issues.”

The large natural resource endowment is a given – the country has shitloads of forests, as the WWF pointed out in the biocpacity figures, which were well elevated by a very high forestry component. Equally, the country IS sparsely populated and this same sparse population works to its DISadvantage in requiring great energy use through transport. As for the successful management, well, that is a question of taste, but one must assume that given the situation which they have to work with (highly energy-intensive industrial base, cold climate, much darkness, long transport distances) the Finns make a fair fist of it, and do rather better than some others. Which is not to say they have THAT much to be so very proud of.

But (if this was your intention) I think it is counterproductive to toss in another study and suggest that it argues a diametrically different point of view and therefore “we shouldn’t believe in these damned studies anyway”. If that was not your intention, I apologise. Unfortunately it IS often a popular arguing platform, and often the simplest and most black-and-white aspects of the two apparently contradicting sides are put forward. This was the very objection I had all along to most media coverage of the WWF report: it was dumbed down into a simple “USA bad, UAE bad, Finland bad, not quite so bad because we only scored 4.6″. That’s irresponsible, in my view.

“”Disenchantment” Causes French “Youths” to Torch Four Buses ”

Wow, you guys burning Paris again? I thought all those ugly French cars were burned last year?

whhoppss… the end should read

“USA bad, UAE bad, Finland bad, **insert other developed Western country of choice here** not so bad, because we only scored a 4.6″.

THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Look guys, the USA is the good guys in the world. Try thinking about having Putin, and China running you lives. They are now, and will soon be putting internet filters on your ISPs to lock out unregulated sites, like finlandforthought.

You have already shown the world how Putin directs your foreign policy, next will be your so called freedoms.

Its your choice, Putin or USA. Its seems you have picked Putin?

I’m really getting tired of your hostile aggressiveness against the country you live in. Nobody is forcing you to stay here.

And nobody is forcing you to read this blog!

23. Comparing eco-footprints to the size of GDPs is actually a very valid comparison; however, comparing the US to Switzerland, or any other small, developed nation, is not.

Additionally, the US trade deficit is irrelevant in the discussion on eco-footprints.

Its sure sucks to have to stongest economy in the frakin world.

I’m sure we’d all like to live in Luxembourg.

Wow, you guys burning Paris again?

Winter’s little known fact of the day: most French youths hail from Finland.

Try thinking about having Putin, and China running you lives. They are now,

At first I was sceptical, thinking, “What can Putin and China do for me?” Now I think everyone should have a foreign leader and a distant country run their lives. They’re great planners and very punctual.

34. Finnpundit. Have you READ the Living Planet Report? I have. Have you noted that to compare GDP with ecological footprint leaves the United States in an unenviable position vis-a-vis other developed nations roughly on a par with it in terms of wealth per capita? I could have chosen Germany, at 80 million (and with an ecological footprint of 4.5 to the 9.6 boasted on the other side of the Atlantic). I could have taken the United Kingdom, whose 60 million people each produce a figure of 5.6 global hectares. Or I could have chosen Japan, at 4.4. All these countries display GDP figures at roughly 75% of the United States, and yet exert a footprint of between 46% and 56% that of the U.S. I think the point is made quite adequately enough. If you wish to measure crude GDP rather than GDP per capita, arguing that in order to “build that mass” you have to break a few eggs, then China weighs in (for now) at… 1.6, and the European Union – which currently outranks the United States in overall GDP (PPP) – scores 4.8, or exactly half.

Considering that the post was a response to a crass statement alleging that the figures took no account of GDP, I think it was perfectly valid. You may not like it, but then again you will have to live with it and lump it.

GDP:Eco Footprint

While weapons (of mass destruction and less-mass destruction) manufacture and related industries contribute to the GDP of the US I doubt that the effect of applying these weapons around the world is being counted towards the eco footprint of the USA.

The damage to the ecosystem of bunker busters, cluster bombs, depleted uranium munitions and the like is surely considerable.

“bunker busters, cluster bombs, depleted uranium munitions ”

are all cool stuff, but a crowd pleasure Nuke will just ruin the whole EU “Stick my head in the sand” mindset. Guess who is making some? And they love your cartoons.

i didn’t read all the posts, so forgive me if these points have already been addressed. i don’t have the time, but i skimmed through and it seems that there are a few people angry at phil, and a few US apologists in here angry at the finnish apologists.

so to phil, let me say that it’s cool. it was an interesting article, and i for one had no idea this was going on, and if a finn had posted it, there would be a very different response. so thank you, i liked it.

for the US apologists, let me say that the uae has a population less than 3 million. i think it was nearly 2.5 million. and finland has something like 5 million?
so yes, in effect, the US really is the one destroying the world. they just reached 300 million people. how can you possibly say that people should stop hating on the US for destroying the world. THEY CLEARLY ARE.
if russia or china had been in the top 3 then ok, you have a very valid point. but it’s FINLAND AND THE UAE FOR GOD’S SAKE. finland and uae could step on the same spot and their united footprint wouldn’t even be the size of american’s pinky toe.

having said this, i had always thought finland to be a leader in environmental care, and that if anything, finns should take this news responsibly and do something about it. we shouldn’t be comparing ourselves to the states and the uae, is what i’m saying.

36. Oh, I don’t doubt at all that the US has a bigger eco-footprint than the EU. I just don’t see the utility of using Switzerland as a point of comparison. And admittedly Europe’s footprint does rise to (assuming an average of 5) to some 7.5 if the EU average GDP is compared to that of the US. But the high US score is mostly due to the rise in carbon dioxide levels, and this is not the first time in the planet’s history when that has happened to a precipitious degree.
And I have read the report, more so for its interesting methodology, and more so for its obvious historical precedents. For the study is nothing but a rehashing of old Malthusian precepts. It predicts gloom and doom due to demographic expansion and the consumption that goes with it. And it is not the first time Malthusian mindsets have been adapted to the latest fad for the worrying set: I vividly recall reading the dire predictions some study concluded in terms of world food production in the seventies. Indonesia, for some reason at the time, was poised to fall prey to catastrophe due to inadequate rates of production. Well, the catastrophe, of course, never happened, because the study never predicted the economic opportunity corporations saw in creating better yielding crops, culminating in the “green revolution”, as it was called later. And so it goes with all Malthusian theories: the problems are later solved by technological advances, increased production, and science.

The most important point to note is the study’s rather self-serving conclusion: they admit that the data are not conclusive, but urge more academic funding to make the data more conclusive. Additionally, they urge government intervention to correct the dire trends they inconclusively predict. We might note that Malthusian dilemmas are rarely solved by government intervention: in fact, most of the time government intervention exacerbate the problem, as in the Irish potato famine, which was eventually solved through immigration – i.e. free-market economics.

However, I do see some value in state intervention, but only in the realm of patents. For example, I’ve long held that the disappearance of species is most likely an incalculable loss, simply due to the lack of access we have to the genetic codes of one-time successfully living creatures. To solve the problem, it behooves us to preserve natural habitats where such species live today. And the best way to do this is to have large corporations buy up the land where such endangered species live, and let them own the genetic codes of all the endangered species living exclusively in such areas.

That kind of an initiative would unlock billions of dollars in assets from pharmaceutical corporations, and dedicate those billions for the preservation of biodiversity. It would be one of those easy, free-market solutions where the taxpayer would not have to do one thing, and would eventually benefit from any of the discoveries generated from such corporate conservation.

@40,
Malthusian crises are, of course, caused by state intervention. In the Irish famine, it was the state (the police and the military) that prevented the starving from taking the food which was available in Ireland at the time (food was exported throughout the famine).

“Guess who is making some? And they love your cartoons.”

I guess they already have some and they sure love our cartoons:

“We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: “Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.” I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.”

-Prof. Martin van Creveld, Hebrew University of Jerusalem

#42

Gotta love’em fundamentalists.

Be them christian fundamentalists in USA and Europe or jewish fundamentalists in Israel and not to forget our friends the muslim fundamentalists in Iran and etc…

All of these itchy fingers wanting to meet their invisible magical sky-daddy

“But the high US score is mostly due to the rise in carbon dioxide levels, and this is not the first time in the planet’s history when that has happened to a precipitious degree.”

It’s not the levels of carbon dioxide, but the speed of change that is new in the planet’s history. And that’s what is kind of worrying – no one knows exactly how the mechanisms work.

Now when did I ever see a “jewish fundamentalists” cut a head off? Blow oneself up in line for food? Yep, still waiting for that to happen.

“All of these itchy fingers wanting to meet their invisible magical sky-daddy”

Indeed, the tragedy of our time is that the very rational scientific-technological development these guys resent has provided them with arms so fatally anachronistic with their world view. Their sky-daddy should consistently tell them to stick with the clubs and slingshots for the least damage.

“Finland ranks first in the world in environmental sustainability out of 146 countries …”

Ha! Go figure.

So, Finland is either the best or about the worst.

#48. Just delve a little deeper into both those studies and the black and the white rub off and turn into shades of grey. As always.

Take the soundbite you are given and you will remain not much the wiser…

The Yale/Columbia study openly admits that the winners had it easy:

“…the five highest-ranking countries are Finland,
Norway, Uruguay, Sweden, and Iceland – all
countries that have substantial natural resource
endowments and low population density”

…while the WWF report penalises countries in this self-same bracket (small populations, high degree of natural resources, major exporters of same natural resources – fish for Norway, meat for NZ, timber for Finland & Sweden, oil for UAE and Kuwait) through some rather flaky methodology that takes poor account of international trade in transferring the ecological footprint from PRODUCERS to CONSUMERS… Ergo, the Finns suffer unduly for cutting down the trees, but countries that buy Finnish paper goods and use them do not pay the same penalty. Same goes for users of UAE oil or people who eat NZ mutton.

Moral of story: don’t take these things quite so seriously, and NEVER take them 100% at face value based on the silly little five-line news items you read in the funny papers. It is NEVER EVER as simple as that. Not happiness, not competitiveness, not first-class education systems, not environmental sustainability, not corruption, not ecological footprint.

Who cares. lets use up all earths resources, then the moon, then mars.

Why worry, me going to party tonight with 20 drunken sailors. As long as we don’t run out of rum, I am happy.

So what is the prediction on the rum supply? Thats the real question for some government study.

Rum supply will be OK, as it is a renewable resource.

Heck, must be a busy port town. New sailors every week…

Its Friday, go to the pool with rum day.

Hot Jacuzzi, cold rum and coke. Tall tails, on what we all survived through, from the guys who were divorced. Hard luck tails from recent divorces. What a life.

hey winter (#45)

your information is sorely lacking.
go look up some jewish terrorist organizations in palestine when it was still called palestine.
go look up the irgun, the haganah.
the irgun was led by a man called menachem begin, who later went on to serve as prime minister – twice.
go look up the king david hotel before you start taking biased points of view again.
92 people died in the king david hotel, 17 of whom were jews, and netanyahu called them ‘freedom fighters’ in the anniversary of the bombing.
his words were, “It’s very important to make the distinction between terror groups and freedom fighters, and between terror action and legitimate military action.”
this is what the man said about irgun, when they bombed a hotel.

so go do some proper homework, and then come and tell me jewish fundamentalists are sweet-hearts.
the country’s sole reason for existance is ‘God gave it to us’.

they don’t need to cut off any heads, they are so much more efficient when they simply drop some american-made bombs on the heads of 20 families at a time.

a bomb a day will make the palestinians go away, eh?

Huh.. let go all the way back to the middle ages and we find????? shocking, christens loping of Muslim heads.

Wow. information is sorely lacking right?

Now, lets both fast forward to 2006? Who is taking heads off? Who had to erect a wall to keep the violence down?

But no, lets all support the poor palestinians with a truck bomb in his pocket. Please go stick your sweet-hearts bomb loving head where it don’t shine.

winter, you failed to argue this topic with me like an adult in the other post, as did your other islam-bashing friends.

none of you were able to argue or defend your points of view in any reasonable manner, and so you won’t even try.

do i have to rewrite all my arguments from the last post? we went through this before, winter, but people like you will justify your sad opinions using some mickey mouse logic.

if we were to sit down and make a list of the most religious violence, then it would be us, the christians, who have caused most death and strife in the world, yet bigots like yourself still slip in islam bashing comments into every post in the face of overwhelming evidence.

feel free to attempt to debate me on this, but all i have to do is copy-paste my rebuttals to aboys arguments from here:
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/10/13/i-was-a-pawn-in-a-theivery/#comments

try to be original this time and come up with something new that wasn’t covered there, i’ll be waiting.
if you can’t, then i will cease to post rebuttals to your ignorant hate filled comments if you will openly come out and admit that you are
a. a racist
b. a bigot
c. an islamophobic

if you refuse, then good luck, i hope you’ve done your homework to back up that fat head full of hate.

“funkybrownchick: you are not alone in wondering. Most people have Master Winter pegged as under the age to own anything much more than a tricycle or a bike with trainer wheels.”

i started reading this blog recently, but in every damn post i’m forced to read some nonsense comment against islam by you, when said post had absolutely nothing to do with religion.
but it’s funny how a man can make an impression so quick, and still be as arrogant as you are.

come on, let everybody see what kind of a mickey mouse mind lies behind such bigotted thoughts. you do my cause more good than your own.

Winter,

It would be in everyone’s interest that you would bother to learn to spell before launching into one of your rants. If you really are academically educated, your alma mater should be ashamed of themselves to have let you graduate with your literary skills.

Now, lets both fast forward to 2006? Who is taking heads off?

Who indeed.

http://www.downtownbeirut.com/Genocide/israel-genocide-in-lebanon.htm
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

By the way, a few years-ago, I visited winter‘s nearby city of Annapolis, in the state of Maryland. It’s a tourist town with little art and souvenir shops. The temp was about 35C, and every store had its doors wide open….with cold air from air conditioners blowing out. Of course, the idea is to entice tourists into the stores for relief from the sweltering heat.

I don’t think there is even a close comparisons between the US and Finland—or between the US and any other European country for that matter.

I realize that activities like farming, wood, paper and electricity production are damaging to the environment. And, sure, we can stop these activities and either starve, freeze or overheat portions of our respective populations—or deprive them of wood and paper. And our decisions about these matters affect people outside of our respective borders, too. Stopping these activities probably isn’t the answer for now. But, perhaps we should perform them as efficiently as possible.

I’m confident that Finland uses environmentally conscious, cutting edge technology. Our power plants and grid are new and state of the art. Conversely, I’m not so sure about America, with it’s above ground electrical wiring (no shit, it’s all suspended by wooden poles, alongside every street ) and power plants and sub stations that resemble the condition of Russia’s technology. But hey, these are the results of political decisions; and perhaps the individual shouldn’t be held responsible for something he can’t easily control.

Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean the individual isn’t culpable. The mentality of individuals is very different in the US compared to here in Finland and Europe. Those stores in Annapolis are just one example, but we can also look at the cars—trucks actually(!)—that Americans choose to drive. One American SUV is like driving two of our cars. Public transportation is sparse in the states.

Also, when you go into stores, the cashiers will automatically give you a large plastic bag to hold, say, your purchase of potato chips. You know, the chips are already in a bag, yet you get a second bag anyway. If you politely refuse, then expect an indignant snub, as if you are treading on a source of national pride: Wastefulness.

We, here in Finland, aren’t perfect either. Sometimes we let our soapy sauna water drain into the river. Or maybe we occasionally leave one-too-many lights on. And our youth are littering pigs, unfortunately. But, unlike in America, useless consumption is NOT a cultural value in Finland and Europe. I’m very glad about that and hope it stays that way.

#46

“Indeed, the tragedy of our time is that the very rational scientific-technological development these guys resent has provided them with arms so fatally anachronistic with their world view. Their sky-daddy should consistently tell them to stick with the clubs and slingshots for the least damage.”

Exactly, why can’t they just stick with biblical weapons like clubs and slingshots. But I guess that sky-daddy has always liked a big boom in the end.

Finland uses a lot of energy because we have a lot of heavy industry factories like paper mills, shipyards and steel factories. The Finnish energy infrastructure beats American one with hands down, power grid is one of the best and wasting energy is not a big issue here. Your own association of civil engineers gives infrastructure grade D (poor). Cold winters require a lot of heating energy just like in Canada (Canada was fourth or fifth in that study).

“We are in a state of civil war, orchestrated by radical Islamists,” said Michel Thoomis, secretary general of the Action Police trade union. “This is not a question of urban violence any more. It is an intifada, with stones and firebombs.” “Ongoing ‘intifada’ in France has injured 2,500 police in 2006 ”

Looks like the EU has a little war down in France? Do you need any help?

ahahahaha..winter, your arguments are worse than aboy’s.

you want to throw quotes at me? very well.

“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Hermann Goering

“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.”
– winston churchill

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti – Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
- David Ben Gurion, The Jewish Paradox, pp121 by Nahum Goldmann

“Our strategic and security interests throughout the world will be best safeguarded by the establishment in suitable spots of ‘Police Stations’, fully equipped to deal with emergencies within a large radius. Kuwait is one such spot from which Iraq, South Persia, Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf could be controlled. It will be worthwhile to go to considerable trouble and expense to establish and man a ‘Police Station’ there.”
- British Foreign Office, policy memo, 1947

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.” – Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’” – Yitzhak Rabin, memoirs, New York Times, 23 Oct 1979

now, winter, let’s look at the leader you have elected. i’ve always said that a people can be judged by whom they elect to lead them.

This very week in 1989, there were protests in East Berlin and in Leipzig. By the end of that year, every communist dictatorship in Central America had collapsed.
–George w. Bush

Washington, DC
11/06/2003

It’s very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfast and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped change America.
–George w. Bush

Dakar, Senegal
07/08/2003

should i dig up some more?
after this, go read arabs and israel for beginners -by ron david
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0863161618/sr=8-1/qid=1154357276/ref=sr_1_1/002-0625444-0740060?ie=UTF8

that should be appropriate for your level.
if you’re in a more literary mood, however, and want to tackle big boy books, then you can try the fateful triangle, by noam chomsky

http://www.amazon.com/Fateful-Triangle-Updated-Palestinians-Classics/dp/0896086011/sr=1-1/qid=1162076491/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4743323-2260023?ie=UTF8&s=books

now go educate yourself.

racists need to be shot: You are just too mean Whole friggin artillery barrage…take it a easy, man

ahaha i would man but this guy does this on every damn topic. i’m tired of this. if phil’s discussion was related then ok fine but jesus, he was talking about finland’s ecological footprint for god’s sake. what could possibly bring religion into this??

for an example, please refer to the posts under the picture of halonen and Yushchenko…this was taken over by a rabid monkey called infinndel.

is it any surprise that winter and innfindel hold the same views?
neither can spell, both seem to have iq’s of 35, and both seem to be 12 year olds.
particularly, i love the way he signs his name after every single sentence…racists need to shot
also, both have an uncanny ability to bring religion, racism, and bigotry, to every damn unrelated topic…racists need to shot
so this has been a post by racists need to be shot…racists need to be shot…
i think i’ll go post this in the other thread just to piss off infinndel and see what kind of childish comments we can squeeze out of this one…racists need to be shot..
he seems to be particularly apt at opening his mouth to reveal the stupidity hidden inside there…racists need to be shot..

terve!…”to racists need to be shot” from infinndel from massachusetts,U.S.A…
it is a bright and sunny sunday morning here in MASSACHUSETTS..i enjoy being called a racist, thank you for pointing that out,”racists need to
be shot”!..it makes me smile that you have called me a primate!
racist DNA permiates the HUMAN RACE. Every human being has the capacity for RACIST BEHAVIORS given the right set of circumstances…it is hard wired into us until the day that the dominant racist group finally destroys this green planet….when i talk on this blog site about politically sensitive issues ,i am not making racist statements. I am only pointing out that some peoples beliefs and thinking can seriously harm the environment,by burning and blowing things up or SHOOTING infinndel from MASSACHUSETTS (peace be upon him)! It is not about color of skin,or language group.it is about DOING SERIOUS DAMAGE TO THIS PLANET BECAUSE OF BAD BRAINS!..
AND BAD THINKING….HEI HEI!…INNFINNDEL FROM MASSACHUSETTS

Pave the Earth. Meat is burger – liha on mureaa.

Would it kill you people to at least try to use correct punctuation? It’s really hard to read and makes you look illiterate.

“It” being poor punctuation, of course.

“it is about DOING SERIOUS DAMAGE TO THIS PLANET BECAUSE OF BAD BRAINS!..”

Oh I couldn’t have said it better. Yes ‘Bad Brains’ is exactly how I would have put it. Didn’t Orwell mention something about this in 1984? Was it ‘Newspeak’? Haha I read that book like 10 years ago but somehow ‘bad brains’ made me think of that. I wonder why…