A witty comment. Although, in a society with plenty of resources to support every citizen but not enough necessary jobs for everybody I don’t see the point. Without some kind of distribution of wealth that would definitely lead to either unnecessary jobs that just waste time/natural resources or increased crime.

“Ignorance is bliss”

- Thomas Gray

And unionization is still the best way to get your employer to actually pay anything for the job.

Unionization is also a great way to give a low wage for a professional. Professional meaning for example experienced plumber or carpenter, whom get hefty salaries in Western Europe. It really isn’t a great act of consistency to demand unified salaries and at the same time cry about how professionals aren’t respected salary-wise.

But I guess I shouldn’t complain. I got paid 8,7 euros on my summerjob as a carpenter. Wasn’t really my expertise, because I’m studying IT stuff. The experienced workers there got paid something around ten euros. I would have been happy just to get seven euros. For my ‘skills’ I probably should’ve earned six euros.

Hi, Phil!

Sorry, että täällä sinua häiritsen:

Löysin perustamasi höpöhöpö-blogin tänään ja rekisteröidyin sinne. Rekisteröitymistä ei tainnut voida tehdä ilman http://-osoitetta, joten laitoin sinne yhden suosikeistani: Ylen elävän arkiston. Kai tämä on ok?

Lisäksi olisin halunnut postata oman tekstin, mutta minulle ei annettu siihen valtuuksia.

Yhden kommentin laitoin, kun luin, että sinulla olisi vastaavanlainen blogi englantia opiskeleville… Ei kai se tämä blogi ole? Ei ainakaan pikaisesti skannaten siltä vaikuta.

I get the feeling you don’t really understand what a Nordic welfare state is.

It’s not build on the foundation that people shouldn’t find a job. It’s build on the principle that if we ensure unemployment is not a social disaster, we will have a much more flexible work market. People and unions are not so interested in protection policies to make sure it’s very difficult to fire people.

There are many ways the Nordic systems could be improved. But the job market is not one of them. It works well. And it’s very liberal.

And it’s very liberal.

Sweden has 15% unemployment, Finland’s real unemployment is probably higher. The state should do everything it can to ensure growth and jobs (but NOT by creating fake jobs just to make the stats look good), and the welfare state most definitely doesn’t do that.

High taxes keeps companies away from Finland. Entrepreneurs and small businesses struggle way too much here.

As always poor people vote for communism because they need someone to support them. As soon as most of them became rich they all will vote against communism since they don’t want to give half of their earnings to others…

And communist state should always keep the number of poor people higher to control them. Something like supporting alcoholics.. give them beer and they’ll vote for you all the time.

“became rich they all will vote against communism since they don’t want to give half of their earnings to others…”

funny how kids are fully supportive of Demms and their tax and spend policy, UNTIL they turn 30 and have savings to protect.

Then they turn evil, want to protect their assets, and start voting Republican.

I pay journeymen carpenters $27.50 an hour, with health and retirement benefits on top of that. If someone is just starting out I pay them $13.00 an hour and give them a $2 raise after 6 weeks if they are worth it. If they are not worth it I fire them. After 14 months they are at 17.00 hour. I takes 3 years to become journeymen and make 27.50 an hour.

Laborers top scale is $23.00 dollars hour after 2 years. This pay is for sweeping floors.

Skilled tradeworkers in Finland will never make this amount of money until 1. The unions are weakened drasticlly and the taxes employers have to pay on employees are greatly reduced. So much for the welfare state helping the people on the bottom. I suppose if your an unemployed 25 year old alcoholic, then you get a free apartment and free health care. I guess it’s good for them.

“if your an unemployed 25 year old alcoholic, then you get a free apartment and free health care”

some will thing thats better than working. You need limits on the free, or these folks stay right where they are. You get the bill.

Off topic,
Winter, Right now foxnews.com is running a banner add that says “What will you do? SAVE DARFUR, STOP THE GENOCIDE”

Click on it and it sends you to a page where you can donate and send a message to President Bush and Kofi Annan. I thought you would find that interesting. The former would be torn to shreds if he tried to do something(especially w/o the UN) and the latter couldn’t give a rats ass if 1,000,000 people died, as long as he can wine and dine a be an important world diplomat.

LOL @ number 6

There are many ways the Nordic systems could be improved. But the job market is not one of them. It works well. And it’s very liberal.

I’d like to know what planet you just beamed off from. Our job market is total crap in Finland. You have to have a 4 year degree to be able to wipe some butts in an old people home.

Whenever a janitor job comes up, 300+ people apply for it. There is no decent work here in Finland.

If people could have their own business and firms, our employment would sky rocket. Trying to have your own business here is like getting anally probed with a hot poker. The red tape swallows you whole and barfs you up and still makes you pay.

If you check job ads, you’ll actually ads for KELA assistance. Oh yeah, that’s sending good signals.

Oh well. According to ‘mercin living in Finland, the solution to our unemployment problems is that everyone gets a well paying job. Oh, no shit, Sherlock?

Why did you not come here in, say 1994 to give us these words of wisdom? Eh? It would’ve been better to have EVERYONE on skidrow without any kind of state sponsorship?

Mebbe workin’ for a ‘mercin company made me stoopid or sumthin’ but the more I see of Chicago I-l-l-i-n-o-i-s the happier I am that there’s at least 2000 klicks of water in between. At least we won’t get Wal-Mart here, at least for a while. Got work over there. But got no money to buy anything. Eh? Read, NY Times, Paul Krugman, “The War Against Wages”. The American Dream Oh baby. And please tell me, you are not using any of our taxpayer services are you?

Im fact, your bashing of our “welfare hell” is totally out of line. I’m making around 3500e a month. Ather taxes that’s about 2200e. To get the same level of service in the States as here I would get maybe 1500e expendable cash. So? Where’s the money? Sure, you can get a private health insurance. But by the the time the insurance company decides to pay for your chemo, your dead. In Finland, they try to save your life first, and check the balance later.

Sorry about the sudden outburst. Perkele. America sucks. Let’s sell all of them Uzis and Jatimatics, maybe they get calmer then (eventually). Being dead. America doesn’t need terrorists. They just need a few more guns.

America’s great. Three years ago I was making under $30,000 dollars a year. I was renting an old house, had two beat up cars, government health insurance, government food, government heat, and the government was paying for my schooling.

Today, only 3 years later I’m making $95,000 gross before tax. On top of that I’ve made an additional roughly $57,000(so far this year) that I will be able invest tax free until I’m 65 years old if I so choose. I probably will claim it as income and take the tax hit so I more liquid. Next year with lots of hard work, some calculated risks, and a little luck; I will double that $57,000.

I’m only 27 years old, I’m a University drop-out, I grow up below the poverty line, but I will be a millionaire before I’m 35 if things go well.

I got a beautiful Finnish wife, 3 kids, and great quality of life.

All in three years. Only in America! So JNT your welcome to take a long jump off a short dock. Your attitude is %99 of your problem.

One of the greatest myths about the American society is the social mobility. The American dream. The social mobility is higher in Northern Europe. The Finnish dream is more powerful than the American one.

In a country like Finland a brilliant mind gives you better odds than it does in the US. Take something like Google. A succes story – build out of nothing. But both founders are sons of university professors. Had these brilliant minds been born in a trailor park, I sincerely doubt they would have had the chance.

And that my friends, is THE real inconvenient truth.

“All in three years. Only in America!”

The same kind of success story is also quite possible here nowadays. The only difference is that you are taking care in case of long-term illness. Depending on your US health insurance, you might end up paying 50 000 – 100 000 dollars for cancer treatment, for example. How are you going to do that when you are not able to work?

US homeless statistics are quite appalling, roughly 3.5 MILLION and THIRD of that is veterans! Over one million homeless former soldiers out there! So much for “support our troops”. There is absolute no social mobility for those poor ones.

Maksalaatikko: In your view, can everybody be a millionaire with hard work? Or is there a limit number of “slots” for millionaires and you were lucky enough to get one?

17. Yes, everyone can be a millianaire in the US with hard work AND fiscal responsibility. Being wealthy has nothing to do with luck unless you win the lottery or are born into wealth. I found in Finland their is this self defeating attitude that is quite common. It goes like this,”Boy those rich people have a lot of luck; to bad I wasn’t born with a silver spoon.”

Successful people are lucky because they create their own luck. It doesn’t matter if they were born in a trailer park or if their parents were professors. In the US we have great oppurtunities for upward mobility. Along with that comes oppurtunities for rapid downward mobility. I’ve seen both happen.

I believe success stories are possible in Finland also. To say “only in America” may be a little over the top. I just think there are more roadblocks to success in Finland. Some are created by the government and others by the culture. Let me offer this disclaimer before I piss everyone off: I love Finland and Finnish culture.

In America, I see success stories all around me. I also see failures. I believe that their is more equality in Finland than in the US, and I believe there is more freedom in the United States than Finland. To have more of one, is to have less of the other.

In the US their are millions of small time millionaires. Most of them do not come from illustrious families. They are just people who have takem advantage of the environment of success that this country has within it.

Right now I’m discussing selling my house to a Mexican guy who has a 6th grade education, speaks halting English, and works as a laborer. He is a friend of an employee of mine. He owned a rental in Miami but he sold it when he came to Minnesota. He already has a house but he wants to turn mine into a rental if he buys it. This man and his wife will be millionaires by the time they retire. He knows absolutely nothing about the stockmarket, nothing about banking. He wouldn’t have the slighest idea how to file the one page paper you need to start a business.

But he is two things, hardworking and fiscally responsible.

Tim73
You have no idea how insurance works in the states. You also have outlandish reasons for my motivations!!

The fear of what I will do IF I get cancer is the farthest thing from my mind. Even if I sit and think about it and try to make it concern me and worry me, I cannot.

America’s great. Three years ago I was making under $30,000 dollars a year.
…
Today, only 3 years later I’m making $95,000 gross before tax.
…
Only in America!

But of course, in communist countries (i.e. outside the U.S.) people never get promoted, never get a better job and never quit their wage slave careers to become succesful entrepreneurs.

By the way, 3 years ago I was making around 25k, now I’m at 50-55k and I’m looking forward to making around 80k in the near future if all goes well. Oh, and my currency’s value hasn’t fallen through the floor, so this would be an actual increase in income.

“But of course, in communist countries (i.e. outside the U.S.) people never get promoted, never get a better job and never quit their wage slave careers to become succesful entrepreneurs.”

Read my 2nd post.

“my currency’s value hasn’t fallen through the floor”

Whose has?

At this point the strong Euro is good for European tourists in foriegn countries and validating the Euro as a currency. At this point it would probably be better for you if the Euro went down in value.

I’m doing several projects for a company right now who is selling raw material around the world. One of the biggests risks they are taking is banking on the value of the dollar staying low and the Chinese not floating their currency. If these to conditions change they will go from robust growth to stagnation and maybe bankruptcy. can’t finish i have to leave

“In the US their are millions of small time millionaires. Most of them do not come from illustrious families. They are just people who have takem advantage of the environment of success that this country has within it.”

Do you have any surveys to back this up? Because it’s my impression that recent ones conclude the opposite. That social mobility is very small in the US. Smaller than in many European countries where education is accesible to everyone.

Hmm. A nation of 300 million millionaires. A chicken in every pot indeed.

I believe it when I see it.

I grew up in poverty and the government paid for my education, and my health care. When I had one child and little money the government provided about half of our food, all of our health care, all of my education, and all of our heating bills. I also was paid for having a child.

According to a recent Forbes survey the most likely business person to become a millionaire is a plumber.

There is know real way to survey who is a millionaire and who is not because of privacy laws.

“A nation of 300 million millionaires. A chicken in every pot indeed.”

Once again putting words in my mouth. I said anyone can become a millionaire through hardwork and fiscall responsibility. Many people in the US are hardworkers, but most are not fiscally responsible.

Anyone can get an education in the US, IF they want it. Nothing is given unless there is initiative. All poor people can qualify for goverment grants(free money) and scholarships.

This BS that people are forced to be poor in the US and have know way to better themselves is nausiating.

The Finnish welfare state is in bed with corporations who can afford to do business in the welfare state. Small business, which is the best vehicle for upward mobility, has the screws put to it by state which regulates them out of business. The only companies that can afford to comply with regulations and taxes are the large corporations.

For some reason, if you have an apartment, a bike, and no assets in Finland; you are not poor. But if you are in the same situation in the US, you are dirt poor. It’s the amazing double standard of this board.

Maksalaatikko: I didn’t put words in your mouth. I asked you if EVERYONE can be a millionaire and you replied: “7. Yes, everyone can be a millianaire in the US with hard work AND fiscal responsibility.”

So you DON’T believe that everyone can be a millionaire? Only that ANYONE can? Then we agree.

If it’s anyone, then luck is required. If there is a natural limit to the amount of millionaires, you need more than hard work and fiscal responsibility.

Luck is not required. Everyone could be a millionaire, but of course that will never happen because once people get a little money in their pocket, the start making stupid fiscal decisions.

Why is their no response to the fact that the government paid for my health care, education, heating bills and food?

You see, In the US we have a welfare state(of course to brainwashed leftists this never registers); but only poor people qualify to use the benefits. The unpoor have to fend for themselves.

There was no response because no-one is reading this thread but you and me and I was only interested to know if you really believed that there are no limits to growth and wealth.

Yes, I know it’s possible to get free education and such in the US. Yes, I know it’s possible to become a millionaire with hard work in the US (like almost everywhere). Those are not that interesting facts to me probably because I’m a brainwashed leftie.

I am interested, however, in the limits to a nation’s wealth. There are only so-and-so many workers. There are only so-and-so much natural resources. Workers can make use of only so-and-so many percent of the natural resources. And so on.

Maksalaatikko, if everyone in the US suddenly turned into hard working people with fiscal responsibility would they all be millionaires eventually? Would the resources really support that? I asked this question for the third time, maybe now it makes even a little sense

Thanks.

I do not think everyone could become a millionaire in the same time period. That would be impossible. But instead of blowing all their extra income, which Americans in all walks of life had alot of, they invested it in SMALL amounts over a period of thirty years they would become millionaires by retirement. It’s called budgeting and compounding returns. A million dollars is not hard to attain and is not that large of a figure, if a person is responsible.

In short, I think all Americans could become millionaires in their lives. This assumes one thing, which is that our population keeps growing.

Pave,
Do you know it’s possible to get also free health care, food, heat in the winter, and housing in the US from government programs?

“If it’s anyone, then luck is required. If there is a natural limit to the amount of millionaires, you need more than hard work and fiscal responsibility.”

This is the hypothetical argument of the lazy and envious.

I take my previous statement back. Hard work and fiscal responsibility will make a person a mult-millionaire in the US. Fiscal responsibility alone will just make a person a plain old millionaire.

Greetings from a lazy and envious brainwashed leftie.

Yes I did know that it’s possible to get free health care, food, heat in the winter, and housing in the US from government programs.

Thanks for replying. I agree with you on that it’s possible to become a millionaire with hard work, I just think a little luck is required, meaning that you need to find a good job and get it. You need to stay relatively healthy to perform it for decades. Things like that.

There are a lot of people who work hard and don’t blow it all but they still don’t get to be millionaires. It’s simply because those high-paying jobs are not that common. I calculated that you need to put $1666~ aside each month for 50 years if you want to become a millionaire when you retire. Could a hard working and fiscally responsible school teacher do that? What about a McDonald’s cook? You said fiscal responsibility alone is enough so don’t try to tell me that a hard worker would get better jobs eventually.

Maksalaatikko:

“Today, only 3 years later I’m making $95,000 gross before tax. On top of that I’ve made an additional roughly $57,000(so far this year) that I will be able invest tax free until I’m 65 years old if I so choose. I probably will claim it as income and take the tax hit so I more liquid. Next year with lots of hard work, some calculated risks, and a little luck; I will double that $57,000.”

With all your experience (being 27 years old), can you tell me (44 yrs old) what kind of an industry you work in. Where did I go wrong, when I chose computer science. Somehow I don’t believe that it’s WalMart that is your employer. So instead of just bragging, can’t you give potentiel competitors – or are you too afraid of that, information assymmetry, the enemy of free markets – some clear indicators of what you are doing.

I DGIN ALL YA WALMART OPPERTUNITIES IHOPE I CAN WORK THER UNTIL I NO WHAT MY CAREER IS GOING TO BE