Coffee and cake? I always thought that coffee was taboo for the LDS folks.

Me and my wife are certainly intending to go – we live only about 5 km:s from there. It will surely be a very American experience: it is one of several religions invented in the US. I gather that they are not really thought to be Christians by the mainstream churches, but the story how Joseph Smith found those gold plates on a field in Pennsylvania certainly sounds very Biblical!

Hmmm, didn’t the Freemasons have also pretty successful “day of the open doors” some years ago.

Don’t the mormons believe that Jesus was actually born and lived in (what is not called) the United States?

They believe that after Jesus’ part ended in Bible, he didnt go stright to heaven but did a detour in America (because, you know, you only live once), and appeared to few indians while there.

I knew Jesus was an American.

No coffee—juice. The local leader, who guided our tour group, told me that the 10% is “voluntary”, but the temple recommendation is tied to it. Also, he said that net or gross is a matter between the member and God, but he pays gross. (Also, all the information I have from elsewhere says gross.) He also said that he didn’t know how much the temple cost and that the Finnish membership didn’t pay for it directly. His phrasing suggested that the money Finnish members pay goes vanishes somewhere (Salt Lake City?) and the funding for the temple appeared from somewhere (Salt Lake City?), so one can’t tell whose money exactly paid for it.

Oh, and, by the way, Phil, if tipping is a Libertarian’s wet dream, what about the “voluntary” 10%?

Oh, and they call it a “temple” (not “church”) and the Golden Plates were allegedly buried in the state of New York—not Pennsylvania. And no, Christian churches do not consider LDS a Christian denomination, but a heresy outside Christianity (like Jehovah’s Witnesses). LDS itself considers itself the true form of Restored Christianity.

i live in utah, non lds, and finland has been one of the countries i’d love to live in. but not if it becomes a mormon country! arghhhhh!

I wonder if the sudden interest in the new Mormon temple in Espoo might have something to do with the fact that the HBO series Big Love (about a family of Utah Polygamists) began recently on Canal Plus.

At the end of the first episode, there was a final disclaimer pointing out that the (mainstream) Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-Day Saints) rejected polygamy in the late 19th century (I seem to recall that having such a revelation was a prerequisite to becoming a state). However, some Polygamist offshoots still exist.

Anyway, if you haven’t seen the South Park episode dealing with Mormonism, here is an interesting web site:

http://www.exmormon.org/

There’s also a Wikepedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-Mormons

Oh, and by the way, I have met a number of LDS members in my life, and most of them are very nice people – theological differences notwithstanding.

A matter of interest: at least two US Ambassadors to Finland during my lifetime (Mark Austad and Keith Nyborg) were known to be members of the Mormon church.

Humm, new neighbors. Are they LDS, or Muslim?

Who would you rather see move in?

i’m not saying mormons aren’t nice people, i’m just saying the mormons in utah are completely different from the ones elsewhere in the united states and europe. i mean, my neighbourhood consists of 3 mormon/lds churches and 0 churches of any other denomination. other states its completely different and you realize you live in a bubble in utah. i’ve met nice mormons, but it’s just not my way of life whatsoever.

“completly Different’???

They don’t smoke, drink, heck even no coffee. They give a year of their life to the church soon after High School. They send people into the Armed Service (Some kind of quota they fill with volunteers). On my ship these LDS held most of the sunday services. And no, none went out with me on those drunk Sailor binges. In fact they would volunteer for Friday night duty to let the rest of us go and get drunk.

And yet they are considered “completly Different”???

I guess they are to moral for some.

mormons are freaky. They accept the idea of monogamy, they believe that people can be baptised after death, etc.
That’s why people are lining to that temple. It’s a freak show.

excuse me: polygamy, not monogamy.

So then you would rather have a Muslim move in?

Well, a lot of christians think anyone who is a bit off is a cult, e.g. evangelicals think the catholics are a cult. They’d be right, but for the wrong reasons. Of course, the LDS is also a cult but one never thinks of their own religion as a cult until escape velocity is achieved. Oh, and that ‘Big Love’ show premiered on Canal+ last night…pretty dull and uninteresting unless you get off on watching 3 women fight over one unimpressive guy.

A friend of a friend managed to esacpe and wrote an incredibly entertaining account of it in http://www.shunn.net/terror/ Excellent writer.

Phil, btw, did they require that all women wear dresses and cover their head when visiting the unconsecrated temple?

As a kid I was taken to pentecostal church summer camp. Boy, that was freaky first experience for ten year old child. HELLuntaiherätys for me.

Btw, first letters of every row of the posts are left under the left hand news column. Anyone else?

hfb, no one was covering their heads, and the visiting Gentile women were not required to cover their heads.

They had rounded up some young attractive Mormon women to hand out brochures and juice. They all wore skirts.

Doh. The visiting Gentile women were not required to wear skirts, that is.

Planning on it…

Anon – Odd. I know the temples in Missouri and Massachusetts both required the skirt and head covering for non-mormons for the tours.

“So then you would rather have a Muslim move in.” – comment by winter

Um..er..call me a stupid, but what exactly is wrong with a Muslim?

Oh and the mormons are the only ones I’ve seen that have even more ridiculous views on sex and masturbation than the catholics. The guide to masturbation prevention is good for a laugh. http://www.moonmac.com/Mormon_masturbation.html

Kimmo W. – Over half of the US Embassy staff from the US are mormons from what I’ve been told.

#17 Your comment proves the general American hatred against muslims. I wish there were more muslims in Finland, definitely.

hfb, I had to stop reading that….

It said: Never read about your problem. But it said so halfway the page. What now? Am I a sinner?

“Um..er..call me a stupid, but what exactly is wrong with a Muslim?”

In winters opinion all muslims are terrorists that should be viciously tortured and then put to death.

Christian extremists can be just as deluded as muslim extremists. Have you seen the film “Jesus Camp”? Take a look:

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

“Over half of the US Embassy staff from the US are mormons from what I’ve been told.”

It would be interesting to hear this from a reliable source. However, it would not surprise me if the proportion of Mormons among US Embassy staff were higher than their share of the overall US population: for their missionary work, they need to learn foreign languages, which puts them at a distinct advantage over the population at large in meeting qualifications for jobs at the State Department.

Kimmo – Well, I heard that from someone who works there. I doubt it is the languages as much as the political nature of religion. People do tend to hire their own and they are generally squeaky clean.

“If the temptation seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK.”

Brilliant! This way, you eventually get so fat you cannot find your todger to play with it. Known as the J. Arthur diet?

Well I’m definetely going to see that temple, as I’m working only a kilometer away and going past that thing quite often. I think why people are so interested in that temple is that it looks so different from normal christian churches here in Finland, and also because of the open doors show (which I admit is a great publicity stunt). I don’t think Finland is getting mormonized (is that a word?), vice versa. I’ve heard that mormons have had quite some difficulties getting Finns converted.

Was Albert Hofmann a acronimically-dyslexic Mormon? Do the Mormons celebrate Bicycle Day? I think we should be told.

Wow! I just had a revelation after reading these 30+ posts: LDS=Ladder Day Saints. Ha! I kept thinking I was reading about an LSD cult. Now I realize I switched the letters. What a difference clean eyeglasses can make

Or maybe it was just a Freudian slip-of-the-mind, since I’ve been thinking about Aleister Crowley lately…..and listening to old Black Sabbath tunes. heh heh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_BT__Lxmsw

Rocks, doesn’t it?!!!

Anyway, I was at a bus stop in Kivenlahti last week, and some cleanly-dressed guys in white shirts and ties came walking over from about 100-meters away. I thought to myself:

Kristian (in Espoo), those look like American religious types. Definitely not ‘worker types’ from around here in Kivenlahti.

No shit, I really thought that for a fleeting moment!

When they reached the bus stop one guy asked, “Did the #42 come yet?” (or something like that) and I told him I didn’t know. Then he says (in pretty good Finnish, I might add), “Yeah, we’re just returning from the ‘Temple.’” And I thought to myself: What kind of Finnish dude goes to a “Temple?!” Then, ultimately, some further conversation revealed that he is actually an American.

Luckily, a bus approached. It wasn’t necessarily *my* bus, but I figured it was a good excuse to make tracks nonetheless. He handed me a small leaflet and, low-and-behold, it has the same picture that Phil posted here!

See y’all at the Temple folks!

Kristian – In the states, you hone your skills to recognise the long dark coats and the ‘watchtower’, or whatever that stupid magazine is called that they force on people, from a mile away so that you can either change course or lock your doors and pretend you aren’t home. My sister always used to be too polite to close the door on them….and would get trapped for hours with them on the doorstep telling her all about the LDS. You made a good move hopping on that bus.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6632687078883055082

“Watchtower” is the Jehovah’s Witnesses magazine.

hfb-thats what i do here, but it’s harder to hide in utah because of their mission being “lets get her to convert” kind of ways they have. finally i just told them “i’m not mormon, nor will i ever be. i’m part of another religion and i’d NEVER turn my back on it. wouldnt God disapprove of that?” they left me alone after that

by completely different, i mean they are alot more strict, and they actually follow the rules and stuff. i don’t really believe in it, i’m not putting them down for it, but like i said, in utah, it’s like living in a bubble!

“what exactly is wrong with a Muslim?”

lets see, so far I have not seen a LDS: walk into a mall and blow himself up. Get angry, riot, over some cartoons. Take some remarks by the pope as a pretense to riot again? Kidnap and kill troupes guarding the boarder, then launch thousands of rockets at civilian targets.

But then again they do have some grievances. Like 9,000 Muslims frog marched off to a machine gun in the Bosnian war. (European’s watching). 1 Million killed in 100 days in the Sudan when the USA pulled out of Somalia (USA retreat after a helo down on the Clinton watch). Another million being killed right now, in Sudan, with the entire world counting a village destroyed each day and just sitting here smugly watching.

Kimmo W. – Ah, right…well, both are weirdo cults that show up at your doorstep so it’s hard to keep them straight. The JWs also tend to dress in black. One bonus of having a huge dog is that it usually scares off the JWs and the other run of the mill bible pushers…sadly, not the mormons.

Tiffany – Look to the blue states for salvation. Go Northeast. MA has booze and fewer religious freaks. Never engage them in a rational conversation, especially never tell them you’re catholic, as the ensuing babble about religion is a waste of time and, well…just close the door. Read the story in the link I posted above….:)

At least the Islamic community doesn’t send guys in black robes door to door. Maybe that’s the next jihad.

hfb, thanks for the link! i missed it earlier! ha very funny too i’m not catholic though, baptist but nonetheless, i agree about the blue states. in fact, utah is the only state that fully supports bush 99%(me being the 1%) and it’s no fun being looked down upon! i’m off to the NE now thanks for the great suggestion!

If the parking seems inconvienient, there’s a lot of buses that stop like 200 meters from the temple. I used to live close to it so I know. I don’t know the exact address of the temple so I can’t tell you anything more specific.

It’s apparently at Leppäsillantie 3.

For example, if you are tempted to masturbate, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms, and eat several of them as you do the act.

Lol, there are probably people out in the world who would do that willingly

I’ve heard that if you’re a good enough Mormon you get to become a god and have your own planet.

I’ve heard that mormons have had quite some difficulties getting Finns converted.
I think the “no coffee” part gets people uninterested even more than the “no beer”…

10 Tiffany – I don’t think Finns will get too exited.

Good story on the missionaries:
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010502IE14

Thinking about it, what’s wrong with our ways of jesusing around? Shouldn’t these cultural imperialists stop bothering us and concentrate on those people, who don’t know a damn thing about jesusing around at all. The guys are carrying coal to Newcastle.

Enough with hamburger fundamentalism imports. Can’t somebody please clone peasant Lalli.

What I find disheartening is that such a large proportion of the human population on this planet follows some religion. I see religions as somekind of necessary evil of the past that was useful to mankind in its earlier stages of development. But now religions only work as hindrages for development and tools for submission and cultural degeneration.

People have always applied supernatural explanations to those kinds of phenomena that they’ve had difficulties understanding. I see the invention of God (or gods) as nothing more than a continuation of this primitive way of explaining things. Nothing actually becomes explained but people lull themselves into false feeling of control and understanding. That way the chaotic and random nature of reality becomes less frightening and seems to be “under control”. No different than exaplaining a lightning to be the finger of an angry god. By replacing things that we don’t understand with somekind of supernatural entity we effectively get rid of unpredictability of the phenomenon, even though we gain no real understanding of it.

What I find even more discouraging is that all these believers think they have the Real Truth and that all the others are sorely mistaken. No honest dialogue or mutual respect can exist in such a situation where the other side is implicitly seen as inferiour and misguided and not as an equal.

No different than exaplaining a lightning to be the finger of an angry god.

Uh, can you prove that it’s not???

“Uh, can you prove that it’s not???”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

Saying that life was created by God doesn’t explain anything. It’s just as explanatory as saying that life was created by a Flying Blue Tomatoe of Sillyness Who Has a Funny Hat. Modern science doesn’t claim to know where life came from, although it has some good theories. But that’s just it: they’re only theories. It’s in the nature of scientific thinking to question and to formulate new ways of thinking, to reconstruct and to modify itself according to new evidence.

As a polar opposite it’s the nature of a religion not to question or to find new ways of thinking but to follow the dogma and to heed the established “truths” and the formal teachings of the clergy of the religion. Indeed, it often seems that religions are nothing more than a clever way of enslaving people and getting them to do what the clergy want, stifling anykind of advancement and the changing of the status quo.

But what is the meaning of life? (No, it’s not 42.)

Why do people automatically think that life necessarily has to have somekind of meaning?

I’m not “people”, höh.

We had a visiting colleague from Utah a few years-ago. Of course, he is a Mormon. When we asked him what separates Mormons from other Christian-like religions, he stated, “It’s very simple: We have the Book of Mormon.”

Ahhhh, we said. Now we understand

For the remaining evening, we tried to get him drunk on schnapps. He wouldn’t touch the stuff….nor coffee, nor Coca Cola. He was true to his form.

However, the next morning I wasn’t feeling so well and even thought about joining his sect to avoid any possibility of another such hangover

Anyway, you earthlings need a context in which to speak about the things that necessarily fall outside of what can be known. Metaphysics. For somebody like you who believe in science the context is poorly developed, I must admit. Everything that is not known will be known some day and if not it’s not worth discussing.

17. Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement.

riiight…how do these people end up married if they have to avoid each other? Seems pretty drastic to me.

I’ve known a lot of Mormons, in different contexts, and I do have to say I’ve never met a Mormon I didn’t like. They are some of the most genuinely affable people I’ve ever met.

The South Park episode, – the one spoofing the Mormon religion – does have it right when one of the South Park kids decides he wants to become a Mormon, simply because Mormon kids seem to actually love family life. There is something to be said about such values.

As to their beliefs, as an atheist, it’s all superstition to me. But it does seem to me that the whole story of Jesus’ execution and resurrection is weirder than anything the Mormons dreamt up.

Those teams of proselytizing clean-cut young Mormon men sort of creep me out, though. I’ve seen them everywhere: in Berkeley, California, in the South Bronx in New York, in Boston, etc. They truly are fearless: they go to some neighborhoods that white people in ties simply do not go to, unless they know the neighborhood well. But they still represent one of the fastest growing religions in the US. So far, I’ve really no problem with that. Kommie Klutz Kidz are more of a concern, because they don’t have a plan, they just rage. Mormons are so much more polite about spreading their message. Kommie Klutz Kidz are only filled with hate and bile for those who disagree with them.

There’s one thing to keep in mind about Mormons: they are quite cognizant of the view outsiders have of them. It’s remarkable that they can be so placid, compared to the mistrust directed at them. It’s worth it to bear in mind that they are capable of great works of irony and humor: Napoleon Dynamite was written and directed by a Mormon, and the lead actor, Jon Heder, is a Mormon. That movie is one of the more interesting voices to be heard from the American independent film world. And it’s thoroughly filled with Mormon values.

#41 At least the Islamic community doesn’t send guys in black robes door to door. Maybe that’s the next jihad.

A la Discworld and “Constable Visit-the-Infidel-with-Explanatory-Pamphlets”?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh-Morpork_City_Watch#Constable_Washpot_Visit-the-Infidel-with-Explanatory-Pamphlets

In all honesty, I likely would prefer a Muslim as a neighbour than an LDS. In fact, I have had Muslims as neighbours (and landlords, and coworkers, and friends), but no LDS peeps.
Muslims I’m fine with, Mormons I find just a little bit creepy and sinister. I know its horribly unfair of me to discriminate in that way, and I feel bad about it (as an atheist I think I should always try to be a model of tolerance, for ethical reasons that would take waaay to long to explain), but there you go.

-BM

I’ve known a lot of Mormons, in different contexts, and I do have to say I’ve never met a Mormon I didn’t like.

I have to agree with you. All Mormons I’ve met have been pleasant and agreeable in their personal conduct. Even their proselytising is not that in your face. You can have a nice chat about their beliefs and they will eventually leave you alone when you don’t show an interest in converting.

This is in stark contrast with JWs who can be quite obnoxious and downright spiteful against followers of “false religion”. It is not fair to group Mormons and JWs together.

Kommie Klutz Kidz are only filled with hate and bile for those who disagree with them.

Kommie Klutz Kids being, of course, people who disagree with you. As your stated goal regarding Europe is complete destruction, given that European Kommie Klutz Kids are too brainwashed by the welfare-statist machinery to have any hope of converting to the true faith, it is no such surprise that you will find people disagreeing with you quite strongly.

It’s funny how finnpundit uses the same type of arguements and rhetoric that the christian(or muslim,jewish) fundies use when they talk about atheists. When having an arguement with finnpundit just replace *kommie klutz kidz* with atheists and you can have the experience of discussion with a christian fundie nutjob.

It’s funny how finnpundit uses the same type of arguements and rhetoric that the christian(or muslim,jewish) fundies

Oh, Finnpundit is a true believer all right. He just worships multinational corporations instead of fictional beings. Like so many other religious fanatics, he wants to kill those who don’t share his faith.

#63 Hence his desperate desire to see Finns slaughtered and the welfare state destroyed.

What the hell is a Kommie Klutz Kid?

I googled it and only got FFT links. Where does this term originate?

Looks like something out of the 4400 or stargate atlantis. gee

“What the hell is a Kommie Klutz Kid?
I googled it and only got FFT links. Where does this term originate? ”

Probably here. My theory is that ‘Klutz’ originates from German ‘Klotz’ and translates best to ‘palikka’ in Finnish.

I always have terrible trouble with comment-related plugins that require me to put some line in the comment loop; I can never seem to find the right spot. Can anyone tell me where I should put the php line in my comments loop? I haven not modified anything much, and I would be very grateful. Thanks!

I work as a tourguide in San Francisco, and we sometimes get people from Utah. So I ask them, “Where are you from?” when they come on the bus, then, if from Utah, “ARe you Mormons?” This could be seen as borderline un-PC question, but if they are, they’re usually proud of it and announce it to the rest on the bus. One day two older fellows from Utah came on, and said, “Yes, we are Mormon.” A Texan in the back asked, “Where are all your wives?”

“We’re gay, actually. No wives…” they smiled, completely sweet.

“You’re gay???? Gay Mormons? I never met one before!” the Texan exclaimed.

“Well, now you have!” they laughed. We all wound up laughing.

“It’s San Francisco, isn’t it?” said one. “What do you expect?”

Well, not everyone in SF is gay, nor are all Utahians Mormon, but this WAS exceptional. Most Mormons seem very nice, well-educated, and considerate of others. They are similar to Finns in manners!

Mary Mekko

I visited the new Mormon Helsinki temple in Sept 2006, with a local Finnish friend. She wanted her son, 7, to hear the Finnish explanation, so I went on the English tour on my own. There were a very motley crew of Americans, British, Russians, and one older Finn, Eero, who wanted to practice his English. First an older Mormon man, a Finn with very good and ponderous English, showed us a video in a small conference room – rather boring, but a good chance to study the others with me. Then off we went on the grand tour, wearing our little white slip-on booties, to protect the white carpets of this brand-new spanking temple. The Mormon Finn spoke so slowly that one almost was forced to concentrate, to hear a sentence to its very slow end. No one spoke in the silence of the grand Hall, or main temple room. It was all truly gorgeous and glowing white.

Then came the funny part: the Mormon stated that all the Finns who’d worked on this sacred building took a vow NOT to smoke, drink or swear while on this job. I found that impressive until…

Eero, the tall older Finn behind me, asked, “Are you sure they were Finns? That doesn’t sound likely to me!”

Our tourguide responded, unruffled, “Yes, they were Finns.”

Silence in the group, except from Eero:

“Maybe they were Estonians?” he suggested.

I suddenly couldn’t stop a fit of laughter, having just heard a long story about Estonians flooding in to do the jobs Finns wouldn’t do the night before. The thought of Estonians swearing in their own language, so that the Finnish Mormons didn’t know it, cracked me up.

Soon both of us, Eero (my new friend!) and I, couldn’t stop snickering and making snide remarks throughout the whole tour. Naturally we held back and avoided disrupting this poor religious man’s sincere lecture, but the others gave us very dirty looks at our disrespect. I told Eero later, while sipping the juice – not coffee – how incredibly solemn the whole affair seemed, so different than in America, so really Finnish. Even the one woman from USA, living in Finland a couple of years as a “wifey” (unemployed), had become righteous and indignant at our jokes, when back home she’d certainly have had a good laugh. His ribald sense of humor and total cynicism really amazed me; the most uninhibited and forthright Finn I’d met in all my half-year of tramping through the backroads. He made the usual risque comments about the Finnish Mormon young female candidates, wearing skirts.

He certainly considered the whole thing a cult, as did I, and I was astounded that the Mormons even hoped to convert a real Finn. From this website I have seen that they have made about 5000 converts in 50 years, with most of them being foreigners in Finland. Finns are too certain about themselves to fall for anything – except more drinks, I suppose, but from that they recover quickly.

Yes, I think the excitement the temple generated had to do with the Mormons being considered freaky polygamists, but I also think that the relative boredom of life in Finland, vs. USA, made many Finns go to see the building as simply an excursion.

Later, back with my girlfriend, I asked her why she wanted her son to hear this religious stuff. Didn’t she know it was an off-shoot cult of Christianity? Did she really want him inspired and persuaded to go in that direction? Of course she doesn’t really understand how it’s perceived in USA; to her it was just a curiosity, like a Chinese temple or even a fortune cookie factory. SHe is intent on giving her kids more exposure to the world, to ideas, different people and culture, than she ever had growing up in Aanekoski. I tried many times to remind her how glorious such a safe, protected and old-fashioned childhood is these days, but she disagrees so strongly I have given up stating my opinion.

It will be interesting to see how her kids come out, but at least I made a new and exciting friend, Eero, through this Helsinki Temple. Thank you, Mormons! And I hope you Finns do not swear, drink, smoke OR copulate in that temple!

Mary

Finland is fun and fantastic! Especially now with a new Temple dedicated to the Lord and Master of the Universe. Plaudits to the leaders of the LDS Church, in particular,Pres.Gordon
B. Hinckley.