Tipping - libertarian wet dream, welfare state nightmare
Finns (and the rest of Europe?) hate having to tip, this is one of their biggest complaints about visiting the U.S. It’s totally understandable, you never know when and how much you should tip, and you always need to have a few loose bills in your pocket - but you’ll quickly figure it out.
Back in the states I had many friends working as waiters in the restaurant business. They made enormous incomes off tips considering the little skills, schooling, and experience they had. 40K and 50K a year were typical salaries, I was jealous. I had another friend who made a killing off tips parking cars at a valet. In Baltimroe immigrants fresh off the boat speaking very little English made a decent living driving cabs.
Tipping is every libertarian’s wet dream - people with little or no education and experience doing well, the harder you work the more you get paid, those that are wealthy generally tip more than those who are poor…and the best part is, all this is done in a voluntary fashion. No one is forcing anyone to tip, society and the free market has figured all this out without the need for laws, rules, regulations, cops, politicians, government involvement etc…
Now for a welfare statist, this whole concept of what essentially is “voluntary socialism”, must make their heads go blue screen. Tipping defies every rule of welfare state logic. A successful financial system without laws, rules, regulations, cops, politicians and government involvement that’s all based on volunteerism would essentially deem the welfare state as useless and as a failed experiment. No wonder why so many people in Finland hate tipping! It would be like The Da Vinci Code if the Christians discovered the truth about the Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and lost books in the Bible.
I am in no way saying that the United States has a successful financial system - my point here is that the tipping culture proves that society and the free market can succeed financially without all the laws, rules, regulations, cops, politicians, and government involvement.
diiduudiiduudiiduu *the truth is out there* diduudiduudiiduu
Comment by Blah — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
What a great system. I’m sure that 50+ unattractive people have no trouble getting those lucrative tipping jobs.
Oh, I forgot. They don’t count.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
Noo, we just like things to go in defined, clear and orderly manner. Your bill says 25 euros, so you pay 25 euros, instead of trying to figure out, whether the unwritten local code requires 6 or 15% tip and how high pile of coins is not acceptable.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 2:26 pm
Creating a society where tipping culture is indeled is a very convenient way for the employer of excusing and legitimising poverty pay in the workforce.
Comment by JG — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 2:39 pm
“Welfare states hate tipping” is a little far-fetched… have you thought that maybe it simply isn’t part of our culture?
Comment by PTJ Uusitalo — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
It has nothing to do with the “welfare state”. It’s a simple case of the restaurant owner selling a package deal including everything, even the bringing of the food to the table.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
L“Welfare states hate tipping†is a little far-fetched… have you thought that maybe it simply isn’t part of our culture?
I’ve never heard a Finn say anything nice about tipping.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:16 pm
“No one is forcing anyone to tip” - My experience of the United States is different. If tipping really was voluntary, there would be no “unwritten” rules about leaving a 10% tip or a 15% tip, but one would simply leave as much tip as they feel the waiter deserved. If a 10% “tip” is EXPECTED, it’s not tip anymore, but a service cost.
Even here in Finland I leave a tip, IF i feel I’ve received more than the standard service.
Just my two cents…
Comment by Mosse — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:18 pm
interesting…i don’t think i have ever seen anyone leave a tip over here…well, except for the 5cents change that you let the pizza delivery guy keep lol
Comment by Jenna — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
It has nothing to do with the “welfare stateâ€Â. It’s a simple case of the restaurant owner selling a package deal including everything, even the bringing of the food to the table.
I almost agree, except there’s little incentive for the wait-staff to provide good service—and let’s face it, welfare states aren’t known for good service. I don’t think there’s much question about that. I don’t find Finland as bad as other countries though—Germany is by far the worst I’ve ever experienced. In Germany, an optional 10% tip has gradually crept-in over the past years. But, even that isn’t enough to motivate Germany’s incompetent waiters (most of them, but not all). So, I save myself 10% almost every time
Phil—Be careful of what you wish for. Introduction of a tipping-system would mean that, not only would you continue to pay for overpriced meals in Finland, but you’d then be expected to tip in addition
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:36 pm
Creating a society where tipping culture is indeled is a very convenient way for the employer of excusing and legitimising poverty pay in the workforce.
But they’re not poor! Far from it. I think it should be a socialist’s and communist’s wet dream. Poor people get a meal for $8 while rich people get that same meal for $11…all voluntary!
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:39 pm
If a 10% “tip†is EXPECTED, it’s not tip anymore, but a service cost.
But it’s still voluntary.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:40 pm
Introduction of a tipping-system would mean that, not only would you continue to pay for overpriced meals in Finland, but you’d then be expected to tip in addition
Yeah, exactly! It’d be a tough thing to successfully implement here in Finland.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
You are SO WRONG again with your elaboration of tipping and welfare state. (goosh) Japan and most of East Asia has nothing to do with welfare state, yet tipping is as inappropriate as in the Northern Europe.
PLUS in Southern Europe tipping is important.
Nothing to do with welfare state, nothing to do with Europe.
You’re blog is having some problems of plausibility..
We like paying real salary for the waiters so they don’t have to go for tipping alemony beggary.
Comment by Perttu — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
You are SO WRONG again with your elaboration of tipping and welfare state. (goosh) Japan and most of East Asia has nothing to do with welfare state, yet tipping is as inappropriate as in the Northern Europe
I never said that tipping has anything exlusively to do with the welfare state. I’m just saying that welfare statists don’t like because of their ideology. I’m sure Asians have their own reasons for not having/liking it as well.
PLUS in Southern Europe tipping is important.
Nothing to do with welfare state, nothing to do with Europe.
You’re blog is having some problems of plausibility..
You’re missing my point.
We like paying real salary for the waiters so they don’t have to go for tipping alemony beggary.
Yeah but alot of American waiters make a shitload of money while alot of Finnish waiters don’t.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 3:59 pm
the welthy tip more than the poor. Really? the wealthy are the cheapest people. Where was this? My brain just reduced to thinking about this. WOW!
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
the welthy tip more than the poor. Really? the wealthy are the cheapest people. Where was this? My brain just reduced to thinking about this. WOW!
Overall the rich tip more than the poor, and rightfully so. But no doubt there’s some cheap rich bastards who tip little and poor who give the last of their pieces of silver.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
I just came back from the UK and the service there was systematically bad, incompetent and rude. With tipping expected everywhere.
Felt so nice to come back to Finland and get smiling “hellos”, “thank yous” and “good byes” from the service personell again. Finnish bad service is a complete myth at least when compared to the Brits.
Comment by Ã…boy — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
I believe the tip is incorporated in the restaurant bill, to make sure all the transfered money is taxed.
I dont personally use much services where tip is expected, but I feel that its uncomfortably cloudy how you are expected to give more money than you paid for - it also makes judging the prices harder.
About bad service; I would feel that the employer makes sure that the service is good enough. Anyway, service is such a big part of wellspent restaurant trip, you only need one bad review to cut seriously into the reputation… you do remember the EFF:s story from about two years ago.
Comment by iJusten — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 4:55 pm
I think that most socialists are against tipping because that would mean better service for wealthy people (who are able to tip more).
Personally I dont see anything wron with tipping and can’t really understand people who say that tipping “doesn’t work/isn’t used in Finland”. Make an easy test next saturday. Go to a very crowded night club and try to order a drink. If you’re male, this probably takes a while. Women on your right and left seem to get their drinks way before you do. Finally, when you get your drink leave a large tip (not that expensive in Finland). Go sit in a table, drink up and go order another one. Take time on your watch (ok, your cell phone will do) and next morning come write your test results here.
Comment by Jani Kuusisto — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 5:01 pm
“Yeah but alot of American waiters make a shitload of money while alot of Finnish waiters don’t.”
Phil, its the welfare state mentality. They don’t want to make more money, as they will just be giving it to the state in taxes.
Please don’t push this on finland. You would really upset the apple cart.
Comment by winter — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 5:08 pm
Not so suprising study results on looks and tips:
http://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/chr/research/inbrief/ate.html
Meta-analysis on service-tipping research:
http://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/chr/research/inbrief/gratuity.html
And it’s not like tipping is forbidden in Finland. It’s not a common custom, but it’s a real bonus when it’s given. As a customer I want brighten up someone’s day and compliment them on job well done. I’d hate to tip every time out of guilt, feeling that if I don’t, they’ll get upset ‘cos it’s substantial part of their income.
Last Saturday my SO invited his sisters to Weeruska with us. When they brought along a few friends, who had already eaten and wanted to get just dessert, the seven of us were waitresses nightmare.
We first sat down, got menus, then figured out what we’ll have and changed seats accordingly. She tried her best to keep track with us, but a salmon salad was returned to the kitchen - the order was a salmon SOUP. Eventually the cook had made 6 chocolate fondants, one or two at a time. The older waitress was a natural comedienne and told us the cook had fainted when he heard about the 6 th one. We pooled two tips - over 10 euros for the cook and another pile the waitress, who didn’t lose her sense of humor with us.
And tipping works as “vittuilu”, a form of being an asshole in Finland too! Once I gave 2e (in Vltava, some weeks after opening) to a waitress, telling her it’s maybe not her best day. She somehow managed to forget us complitely after taking the order, then bring us cold food and screw up with the receipt. She blushed bright red with the tip.
Comment by Suviko — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 5:11 pm
Phil wrote:
“Yeah but alot of American waiters make a shitload of money while alot of Finnish waiters don’t“.
A lot of american waiters have to do two other jobs on the side and still only make enough money to barely survive. Most assuredly a waiter dancing on a tip-money paved street is a less common occurence.
Comment by Ã…boy — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
One funny thing happened in Weeruska. Finns usually go dutch, but I was paying for my boyfriend, the only man in our party. I gave my card and when the waitress came back, she handed the bill to my boyfriend, who quickly signed it with my name just when I said it was actually my card.
The waitress did it automatically and it didn’t feel like a concious sexist attitude acting up. Guess it’s still more common for man to pay for both if everybody aren’t paying their own bills.
Comment by Suviko — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
In a Calvinistic society like the Dutch one that is well known for ruthless stinginess, earning a living through tipping would never work. People in NL are way too stingy to tip. Wouldn’t surprise me if societies that have been equally influenced by Calvinism like Scotland or Switzerland (at least the reformed German speaking part) don’t tip either.
Comment by alexbafana — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 5:51 pm
Expecting a tip is begging.
Waiters who ask for tips are beggars.
The waiter earns his/her living in the form of an hourly wage. There is absolutely no reason for the customer to tip.
Rewarding great service with a tip is irrational because you have already received the service and it can’t retroactively get worse if you don’t leave a tip. Waiters don’t have time machines. They can’t go back in time and give you lousy service because you didn’t leave a tip when you left.
Waiters have an incentive to serve their customers properly because if customers are disappointed with the quality of the service they won’t come back to the same restaurant later and the waiters will get fired when the restaurant goes out of business.
Comment by Mikko Ellilä — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
A cultural thing definitely, related to the “welfare state” only indirectly. The theory goes that everyone would naturally do their jobs well and that every job would be paid a decent salary. I don’t see the mandatory tipping systems as really a better system. Anyway, what is this - “a libertarian wet dream”? Interesting wet dreams you have Phil, and I have to say that even though a staunch welfare statist, I am yet to experience tipping related nightmares…
Comment by mjr — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
Tipping sounds cool. How about changing some other services’ payments voluntary, too? I really don’t like paying rent. Or my phone bill. Free taxi rides would be cool.
Comment by Fägäri — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 6:40 pm
Expecting a tip is begging.
Then all Americans who work on tips must be “beggars”. :-/
Waiters who ask for tips are beggars.
I’ve never had anyone ask me for a tip
Rewarding great service with a tip is irrational because you have already received the service and it can’t retroactively get worse if you don’t leave a tip.
Should companies not give out bonuses? Cause isn’t a bonus essentially a tip?
Waiters have an incentive to serve their customers properly because if customers are disappointed with the quality of the service they won’t come back to the same restaurant later and the waiters will get fired when the restaurant goes out of business.
One waiter’s poor service won’t shut down a business. Waiters incentive is to keep their jobs and make more money. A waiter in the states works hard cause he/she knows they’ll get larger tips.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
I really don’t like paying rent. Or my phone bill. Free taxi rides would be cool.
You don’t have to pay rent or your phone bill, they’re completely voluntary.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
“Then all Americans who work on tips must be “beggarsâ€Â. :-/”
Yes.
“I’ve never had anyone ask me for a tip”
Apparently you’ve never refrained from tipping in America.
If you did that, the waiter would say, ‘Where’s my tip?’
“Should companies not give out bonuses? Cause isn’t a bonus essentially a tip?”
No, it’s very different. An employer is not in the same position as a random customer.
Comment by Mikko Ellilä — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 7:02 pm
There is one strange thing about Finland. As long as government decide that you have to pay 100s for something(even when you don’t use it) - everyone’ll shut up their voices and obey to that.
But when it’s time to voluntary spend a couple of euros, everyone will start crying and complain about that…
Myself, I tip everytime I get good service in any country(except Finland). This is an essential part of the restaurant culture.
I don’t remember any place where waiter asked me for a tip. It’s totally up to you…
Comment by Belino — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 7:05 pm
>> If you did that, the waiter would say, ‘Where’s my tip?’
Really? Have you seen it in the movie or ever been in US?
For most of the population here, the longest trip was Helsinki-Stockholm-Helsinki ferry but they talk like they’ve been in any country and spent there years. Wonderful finnish education????:))))
Comment by Belino — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 7:10 pm
Remember that tipping is just more American Evil on the world. Forget the fact that the waitress will work harder for the gulp… customer.
After all its all about the living wage she gets, not the service she provides.
Comment by winter — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 7:14 pm
As a very satisfied customer I may leave some tip because I know that waiters and chefs are doing hard work with low pay. Many Finns don’t understand tipping at all. They think that restaurant workers get their paycheck every month and that’s all they need.
Comment by Timo L. — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 7:33 pm
I just came back from the UK and the service there was systematically bad, incompetent and rude. With tipping expected everywhere.
Felt so nice to come back to Finland and get smiling “hellosâ€Â, “thank yous†and “good byes†from the service personell again. Finnish bad service is a complete myth at least when compared to the Brits.
I agree. Service in Finland is pretty good for the most part. If any improvement is needed, it would need to come from management, not from individual waiters. But, in England and Germany, tipping is a wonderful thing—most of the time, it’s like giving yourself a discount
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 7:37 pm
interesting…i don’t think i have ever seen anyone leave a tip over here…well, except for the 5cents change that you let the pizza delivery guy keep lol
Interesting indeed. Tipping definitely IS a part of the Finnish culture, albeit not as pronounced as in the USA. It’s perfectly fine to not leave a tip but often people tip you anyway. I should know what I’m talking about since I used to drive a cab in Helsinki for a couple of years. On a typical night I received 5-10 euros in tips, sometimes even more. I know it’s not very much compared to what a cabbie gets in some other country, but it’s quite a long way
from a culture that frowns upon leaving a tip, as some people seem to think about Finnish tipping culture.
Comment by mh — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 8:05 pm
Belino:
Could you elaborate a bit on the Helsinki-Stockholm remark? What’s your source for the statistic that over 50% (”most”) people “here” (by which you refer to Helsinki, Finland, readers of this blog or what?) haven’t made a longer trip in their life?
-
Nice thing about service in restaurants at the States is that wait-staff comes by without flagging them down and asking if you want a refill or something else. Some customers here might feel uneasy with it and think the waiters are intruding too much, but IMO active customer service feels friendly. But who know how it would go.
Comment by Suviko — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 8:16 pm
Tipping is something not good for business as well as customer, why:
Its employers job to keep employees happy, employees shouldnt beg from customers.
If you dont pay good, next time you dont get good service (waiter might sneeze into your dish…who knows).
Tip is a mild form of bribe that says next time take care of me first. I havent seen any corrupt finnish so far, so its understandable.
In Finland we pay so much taxes that should take care of people who are not well to do, so why to pay more?
Comment by mil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
Belino:
“Really? Have you seen it in the movie or ever been in US?”
Yes, I have been to America, and I know it for a fact that this kind of behaviour is very common. American waiters see a tip as an entitlement.
“For most of the population here, the longest trip was Helsinki-Stockholm-Helsinki ferry”
That’s utter and complete crap.
Belino, where are you from?
How can you be that ignorant?
Obviously you don’t know a lot about Finland. Apparently you have no Finnish friends? If you knew some people in Finland, you wouldn’t come up with bullshit like that.
“but they talk like they’ve been in any country and spent there years. Wonderful finnish education????:))))”
Believe it or not, Finns are generally more educated than the Americans, and also more educated than most Europeans.
Americans like Phil don’t want to admit this, so they use bullshit arguments like, ‘It doesn’t matter that I don’t know what the capital of Germany is, because you Europeans don’t know what the capital of Nebraska is!’
Comment by Mikko Ellilä — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
Wo Wo Wo, dont argue…
Looks like George Bush is using name Belino
So now you know, it makes no sense to talk further.
Comment by mil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
Phil: “”I really don’t like paying rent. Or my phone bill. Free taxi rides would be cool.”
You don’t have to pay rent or your phone bill, they’re completely voluntary.”
Yeah, but then I don’t get to live at my home or call people. Waiters provide service whether or not they get tipped. The voluntarity is completely one-sided.
Comment by Fägäri — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 8:31 pm
Tipping is perfectly legal in Finland. If you complain about finnish tipping culture, you must be an evil authoritarian statist.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 8:58 pm
Also, waitresses in Finland don’t make 50k a year although they can receive tips. This is clearly an astounding defeat for the libertarian economical theory.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 9:13 pm
Yeah, but then I don’t get to live at my home or call people. Waiters provide service whether or not they get tipped. The voluntarity is completely one-sided.
Going out to eat still costs $$, whether you tip or not.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 9:40 pm
Americans like Phil don’t want to admit this, so they use bullshit arguments like, ‘It doesn’t matter that I don’t know what the capital of Germany is, because you Europeans don’t know what the capital of Nebraska is!’
Americans who say that are from Nebraska!
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 9:41 pm
Tip is a mild form of bribe that says next time take care of me first.
In a bar, yes, but in just about all other cases, no, you’ll never see that waiter/taxidriver again. You don’t tip a person (bar is exception) so they treat you good the next time, cause there is no next time.
In Finland we pay so much taxes that should take care of people who are not well to do, so why to pay more?
The point is that it maybe could be done in a voluntary fashion. Taxes are threats by the government backed by men with guns and jailtime. Voluntary is well, voluntary.
BTW - Where’s Fred Fry and FinnPundit to weigh in on this??
Comment by Phil — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 9:44 pm
It has nothing to do with the “welfare stateâ€Â. It’s a simple case of the restaurant owner selling a package deal including everything, even the bringing of the food to the table.
Yeah, and sometimes there’s even a magic show. Anyone familiar with the ‘disappearing waiter’ trick?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 10:02 pm
I agree with those, who say that Finnish tipping/not tipping culture has nothing to do with welfare society. I don’t think Finns were any better tippers in the 60’s.
Comment by Kaislis — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 10:27 pm
USA and tipping= usually excellant customer service. Finland and no tipping= Average to good customer service.
Comment by BigUnit — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 10:31 pm
I agree with those, who say that Finnish tipping/not tipping culture has nothing to do with welfare society. I don’t think Finns were any better tippers in the 60’s.
Prices in-general weren’t much better in the 60’s either. It’s hard to justify leaving a tip when you’ve overpayed for the meal in the first place—and that over-inflated price IS, in-fact, a product of our welfare society.
Also, over-inflated prices lead to lower sales volume in restaurants. But hey, who needs a solid economy when we can all live-off transfer payments from Nokia?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 10:59 pm
@ 36.
interesting…i don’t think i have ever seen anyone leave a tip over here…well, except for the 5cents change that you let the pizza delivery guy keep lol
Interesting indeed. Tipping definitely IS a part of the Finnish culture, albeit not as pronounced as in the USA. It’s perfectly fine to not leave a tip but often people tip you anyway. I should know what I’m talking about since I used to drive a cab in Helsinki for a couple of years. On a typical night I received 5-10 euros in tips, sometimes even more. I know it’s not very much compared to what a cabbie gets in some other country, but it’s quite a long way
from a culture that frowns upon leaving a tip, as some people seem to think about Finnish tipping culture.
I’m actually from Australia, should have made that clearer sorry.
Comment by Jenna — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 11:35 pm
In some U.S. states, such as Nebraska (I know from personal experience — ugh), it’s legal for employers to pay a lowered minimum wage for tip-earners. In 2001, at least, the wage at a restaurant I worked at was something like $2.15 an hour. This especially sucked on slow nights (all nights, really, except for weekends). Also, the amount of work hours per week or day were totally unpredictable, and the work was physically and emotionally gruelling. And don’t even think about health insurance or any kind of benefits.
And, indeed, the chicks who dressed the most sexily received the greatest tips. With my short hair and black-rimmed glasses (remember this is Nebraska… and the other waitresses were all sorority girls), the biggest tip I ever received was from a literature professor and his wife, with whom I had a nice conversation with.
Regarding cab drivers, my step-father has been working for Yellow Cab for almost 20 years. All drivers start off as company employees, earning minimum wage. After a few weeks, everyone must become a ‘lease driver’. This means that he receives no wage, and every day he must pay a $160+ lease, plus mileage and gas. (He has no health insurance.) He would not survive without tips — and, indeed, he often ends up owing money to the company on slow nights.
He doesn’t really have a lot of options. He went to school and apprenticed as a machinist and as a cabinet maker, but there were no jobs to be had.
Anyways, I know some tip-earners make a good living and have benefits, but many don’t. If service is at least decent, I always tip 20% if I can because I know how difficult it is. Plus, it’s extremely simple to figure what 10, 15, or 20% of a bill is. Not hard math.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 1:02 am
To Phil:
“In a bar, yes, but in just about all other cases, no, you’ll never see that waiter/taxidriver again. You don’t tip a person (bar is exception) so they treat you good the next time, cause there is no next time.”
A friend from NY told me he gives best tips to his barber and the guy at the pool hall. In both cases he believed it helped him establish himself as a patron so he could get the time or table he wanted.
Btw:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping#United_States
So there’s quite atrict hierarchy in the States for how much to tip whom. As a tourist it’s easy to feel at loss with these customs and sigh of relief when you realize your travel destination doesn’t have similar (mainly unspoken) customs to observe.
Comment by Suviko — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 1:03 am
#53
Gee, that’s a long list to memorize. I never thought about it so precisely. One incident stands-out in my mind though: At the airport in Baltimore, a baggage handler said the following as I handed him my suitcases…
“I’ll make sure your luggage arrives safely at its destination.”
He said it three times. Do you think he was expecting a tip in exchange for fulfilling his promise?
I gave him about 2- or 3-dollars just in case
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 3:16 am
I hate tipping, though I do it. It’s just a way for employers to avoid paying a living wage and as someone else pointed out it really screws the worker on slow nights.
But I’m not sure which is worse, German waitstaff with their blatent rudeness or some young American waitress who is all teeth and bugs me every 2 minutes to see if I want to order something else.
Comment by dhen — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 3:22 am
I lived two years in USA and during the whole time I wasn’t sure who to tip and who not. I believe I got it right most of the time. During that time I once lived 5 months in a hotel. I didn’t know I was supposed to leave a tip for the cleaning staff on the table. For five months they cleaned up my room twice a week, but never received any tip for it, because I didn’t know I was supposed to give it. I had asked my local friends about tipping but this never came up until I already had left the hotel.
When I wasn’t in the hotel I lived quite close to the airport I used a lot. I think about 75% of the times I took a cab from the airport to my home the driver started to complain about how short trip it was (about 5 miles) and demanded that I should pay at least x amount of tip. So, it does happen that the service provider demands for tips. This got so annoying that me and my friend started picking each other up from the airport. It made our lives much more convenient.
In Finland I tip sometimes. It totally depends on my mood, the service I got and what is the total amount of the bill.
Now I live in China and giving tip is practically impossible. Chinese waiters act like it was shameful to accept tip.
So, I would say that tipping fits some cultures more and some less. I really don’t care either way, but I think next time I go to country I have never visited before, I will be checking these pages first: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A640018
Comment by comma copulation — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 4:39 am
Well, those tipping pages don’t include too many countries. I guess with some more googling I could find more information about tipping.
Comment by comma copulation — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 4:44 am
I waitressed when I put myself through college. I made bucks, and I didn’t claim it on my taxes (thanks to a a boss who looked the other way). It was a great way to save money.
That said, the base salary for wait staff is pathetically low, and unless you get work in a very busy or posh restaurant, it’s very hard to make those 40-$50,000 a year jobs that Phil refers to. There are many people who work night shifts dodging greasy feels from off-hours truck drivers, just to go home, sleep a few hours, pack up the kids again and go back to another job.
And it’s a hard job. Read Nickel and Dimed, by Barbara Ehrenreich. So many Americans live hardscrabble lives, cobbling together a living from shit-wage jobs.
It’s enough to make you cry.
Comment by AmeriikanEnkeli — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 6:53 am
If the lack of the emotional blackmail system known as the tipping culture Finland is linked with the welfare state, then good for the welfare state!
It’s the responsibility of the restaurant management to make sure that their personnel provide good service, and to that end, they should pay their staff a living wage, so they don’t have to rely on charitable contributions from their customers to make ends meet.
And what constitutes “good service” anyway? All I really want is a waiter who shows up to take an order without too much delay, and delivers the food once the kitchen has it ready. All the superfluous flourishes and gyrations are lost on me, especially as their purpose is basically to squeeze out a gratuity.
But no matter what you think about the tipping culture, blaming, or crediting the lack of it in Finland to the welfare state is another one of Phil’s red herrings. In Sweden, for instance, taxi drivers really do expect tips.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 7:25 am
Helsingin Sanomat on tipping in Finland:
http://www.hs.fi/matkailu/artikkeli/Juomarahaa+kiitos/HS20060726SI1AU01vo7
Towards the end of the article, there’s a mention that tipping died out in 70’s in Finland. Mentioned reasons actually would point to the direction of then developing welfare state system.
Hmm.
Comment by Suviko — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 8:05 am
A friend from NY told me he gives best tips to his barber and the guy at the pool hall.
Yeah forgot that one, definitely want to leave a good tip to your barber.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 9:00 am
Tips for barbers? No point in Finland, where I understand that most barbers and hair dressers are effectively private entrepreneurs, who “rent a chair” in the shop where they work.
The knowlege that a bad haircut will lead to a shortfall in repeat customers is the only incentive they need to do their job right. No need to pay them more than the established rate.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 9:10 am
In the US it’s not only the tip. Sometimes also one or another mysterious tax is added to the price. Never trust a price tag.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 10:13 am
“the tipping culture proves that society and the free market can succeed financially without all the laws, rules, regulations, cops, politicians, and government involvement”
You mean there’s a successful society without laws, cops, government and politicians? Where? I thought one major Third World problem (according to some experts anyway) was that a major part (often the greater part) of property and economy exist outside the law, making possession highly insecure. Good government doesn’t come free, but neither does the alternative.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 10:35 am
Tips for barbers? No point in Finland,
Yeah, 27.95e at Iso Omena for 15 minutes of work. I think the tip is included. I paid like $12 in the states.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 11:42 am
I’m not suggesting that tipping should be brought to Finland. I think people are missing my point with this post, or I did a bad job of explaining it. Here’s my 3 points…
1. With tipping, the rich generally pay more than the poor for the same thing. So a meal costs $11 for the rich and $9 for the poor. What’s wrong with that??
2. All of this redistribution of wealth, from the rich to the poor, is done voluntarily. Could this volunteerism be applied to other aspects of society?
3. As seen in the comments above, the welfare state doesn’t approve of tipping. What would happen if tipping was removed from the states? Well, all those who worked for tips would get paid a hourly wage. The vast majority of them would then be making less on average than they did with tips. The wealthy would then be contributing the same as the poor. Is this what you’d all like to see happen?
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 11:48 am
1. If my memory serves me right, the lecturer or sociology said that the wealthiest don’t tip most, but the middle class do. It’s those people who had part-time jobs while they were studying.
Last night I furiously googled around for a reference, ‘cos I didn’t want to say this without a source to point at. :I
2. In the States, people seem to do a lot of charity work. I’ve been curious to know how organized and effective this sort of voluenteer work is.
3. We can’t see from anonymous bloggers’ comments what the state approves. Society =! state.
And that scenario you are offering isn’t what I want to see, so I’ll do my own: The hourly wage would be determined as sufficiently high so a person working full time earning that wage can support him/herself.
What’s this obsession with “I’m paying more than you do” -mentality anyway?
Comment by Suviko — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 12:28 pm
2. In the States, people seem to do a lot of charity work. I’ve been curious to know how organized and effective this sort of voluenteer work is.
Yes, voluntering is huge in the states. When I was younger, I volunteered one day a month at a nursing home. When I was at university I used to volunteer to collect money different causes (we used to stand in the streets at intersections, now THAT was kinda beggging). My mother would volunteer at a soup kitchen and schoool, and both my parents volunteered at church stuff like the clothing bank for the poor.
I see much much less volunteering done here in Finland. Voluntering goes totally against the principles of the welfare state.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 12:33 pm
What’s this obsession with “I’m paying more than you do†-mentality anyway?
Shouldn’t the wealthy contribute more than the poor financially to society?
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 12:34 pm
“27.95e at Iso Omena for 15 minutes of work. I think the tip is included. I paid like $12 in the states.”
That picture of you on the top of the page - is that an expensive Finnish haircut, or a cheap American one? If the latter, did you leave a tip?
Comment by Kimmo W. — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
“Shouldn’t the wealthy contribute more than the poor financially to society?”
Sure, that’s what progressive taxation and income-linked day fines are all about!
Comment by Kimmo W. — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 1:29 pm
Tips for barbers? No point in Finland,
Yeah, 27.95e at Iso Omena for 15 minutes of work. I think the tip is included. I paid like $12 in the states.
And I’m sure that tip they award themselves has been quite a generous one, since I believe the VAT went down -but not their prices…
Comment by majava — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
Yeah, 27.95e at Iso Omena for 15 minutes of work. I think the tip is included. I paid like $12 in the states.
I’d say the tip you left was about 17.95e, and that’s whether you got a good haircut or a bad one.
In Germany, I paid about 10e and left 20% tip of 2e. I got my hair cut every month. Here in Finland, I get my hair cut every 3-months because it’s so expensive—or I wait for a business trip overseas.
Generally though, I’m rarely happy with haircuts because they never listen to how I want it—instead they just cut how THEY want it, not how I want. Afterwards, the excuse is always: “Oh, don’t worry, it’ll grow back.” Well, I’ve grown tired of their short attention spans and then overpaying (esp. Finland) on top of it, so I just ordered one of these:
http://www.flowbee.com
Sounds crazy, but I’m really hoping that it’ll improve the quality of my cut. Plus, I’ll have it paid-off in about (Finnish) 3-haircuts
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 3:48 pm
“I see much much less volunteering done here in Finland. Voluntering goes totally against the principles of the welfare state.”
Those poor people in America DEPENDS on this volunteering. I’d rather be dependent on regular and democratically set of benefits from the government than on some irregural volunteers. That is why we pay higher taxes, poor people in general do not need to beg here and/or take three crappy jobs in order to survive.
Comment by tim73 — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 4:30 pm
I usually get my hair cuts for free
Comment by Blah — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Phil: “I see much much less volunteering done here in Finland. Voluntering goes totally against the principles of the welfare state.”
Umm… No. Volunteering does not go against the principles of the welfare state, but the existance of said entity directs Finnish volunteerism to other functions of the civil society than in the US. We can take Sweden as another example of the difference of the “Nordic model” to the “Anglo-Saxon model”.
The following facts are snagged from The Johns Hopkins Comparative Nonprofit Sector Project’s “Global Civil Society: An Overview” by Salamon et al. (Phil, you might want to read it.)
Volunteers in nonprofit sector workforce, as percent of economically active population:
Sweden 5,1%
U.S. 3,5%
Finland 2,8%
(35 country average 1,9%)
Volunteer work orientation (significant fields of activity):
United States:
Social Services 36,7%
Health 13,6%
Education 13,4%
Culture 11,8%
Civic/Advocacy 10,2%
Professional 5,5%
Sweden:
Culture 51,4%
Professional 15,6%
Civic/Advocacy 12,2%
Social Services 8,2%
Education 2,4%
Environment 2,2%
International 2,2%
Finland:
Culture 48,2%
Civic/Advocacy 23,6%
Social Services 13,6%
Professional 5,4%
Health 4,7%
Education 1,7%
As you see, volunteerism in itself is quite strong in the Nordic countries but because of the welfare provisions in force, the kind of “help the poor”-volunteerism like in the States is just not needed very much. In terms of international comparison, Finland is way above average in volunteerism and the other Nordic welfare states are even more so. In fact they beat the US by a comfortable margin.
Comment by Drakon — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 7:16 pm
Those poor people in America DEPENDS on this volunteering.
I too would rather depend on the evil welfare state than random acts of kindness, especially in the middle of an economic downturn…
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 8:29 pm
That picture of you on the top of the page - is that an expensive Finnish haircut, or a cheap American one? If the latter, did you leave a tip?
Maybe if I would have left a tip, she would have trimmed my sideburns for me.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 10:20 pm
Sure, that’s what progressive taxation and income-linked day fines are all about!
Right, but tipping is voluntary, while progressive taxation and day fines are backed by men with guns. Big difference.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 10:21 pm
Finland is way above average in volunteerism and the other Nordic welfare states are even more so.
I’m surprised to hear that since Americans are so gung-ho about volunteering, while I rarely hear about it here. Maybe Americans are just “louder” about their volunteering? Or maybe it’s not done as much inside Ring III compared to the rest of the country?
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 10:26 pm
“Americans are so gung-ho about volunteering,”
Oh, sure, it makes them feel so good about themselves, and their lifestyle.
I remember a Mad magazine from my youth, in which a white upper-middle class American woman was talking to a friend of hers how great it was to volunteer at a day care center for underpriviliged children. She found the work so fulfilling that she actually had to hire a maid to deal with her domestic chores. (Cheap labor - no big deal…)
The visitor remarked that she seemed to have a very close relationship with two of the children at the center. “Why yes, they’re my maid’s kids”, she said.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Wed, Sep 27th, 2006 @ 1:14 am
I always thought that Somalia, with no government at all, was a Libertarian’s wet dream. Or at least it was, until a bunch of Taliban-sympathizing religious fanatics took over recently. But get this, the BUSINESS COMMUNITY backed these religious nuts’ siezure of power because they were tired of the lack of rule of law that that existed.
Comment by dhen — Wed, Sep 27th, 2006 @ 5:07 am
BTW - Where’s Fred Fry and FinnPundit to weigh in on this??
FinnPundit has been denied the access to a computer. It turned out that people like you, who took him seriously, just made his condition worse. We’ll be trying a new kind of medication. If it works, you’ll see him back online in a week or so.
Hfb is also doing well. She has passed the anal phase and is eagerly moving towards being a productive member of the society. Unfortunately the society in question is still imaginary (something she calls the “USA” where everything is supposed to be perfect).
We don’t know about Fred Fry, perhaps he’s in another institution?
Comment by Napoleon — Thu, Sep 28th, 2006 @ 11:33 am
47. Phil: BTW - Where’s Fred Fry and FinnPundit to weigh in on this??
Hmm. Time to catch up on some posts.
Tipping remains an incredibly lucrative source of income to those involved in such labor. Phil’s citing of $50,000 as a possible annual income for waitering is, I think, based on cities outside of New York, LA, and San Francisco, where it is possible to gross $70,000 annually through waitering. One friend of mine regularly grosses $85,000 (he’s a former stockbroker turned waiter, though by now he’s a sommelier). One year he wanted to buy an old farm in upstate New York, so he decided to work overtime: that year alone he grossed $135,000 (he now owns the farm, and maintains an apartment on the Upper West Side). True, he works for the top restaurants in the city that cater mostly to millionaires, but he got there through tenacity and commitment.
The percentages cited in this thread are also a bit off: 15%-20% is customary in the US. I’m also surprised that taxi drivers in Finland earn only about e10 a night in tips. In New York, it’s about $100-$200.
Tipping is also great in that it allies the waitstaff with the restaurant owner with a common goal: that of maximizing sales. While there are little labor protections for the waitstaff, the lucrative returns more than make up for the deficiencies, especially if a lot of the tipping goes unreported as income (i.e. the waitstaff never pays taxes, especially in cash tips, as opposed to tips paid through credit cards, which are more traceable). However, the state reaps an incredible benefit from motivated waitstaffs who increase sales: the state sales tax always gets added to the bill, before the 15%-20% tip is calculated.
Sales tax, - or consumption tax - is always preferable to income tax. Tax consumption, not income. The practise of tipping certainly supports the logic of that libertarian ideal.
As to the consumer having to pay a higher price, it still seems to me that dining in restaurants is mainly a discretionary source of entertainment. It is not necessary for survival. To try to protect consumers from the high costs of dining out seems to me to be a misallocation of social concern.
Comment by Finnpundit — Sat, Sep 30th, 2006 @ 5:55 am
“Taxing consumption instead of income” is certainly not a libertarian ideal. You don’t know what libertarianism is.
Comment by Mikko Ellilä — Mon, Oct 2nd, 2006 @ 12:06 pm
When in other countries (where it is a custom to tip) I only like to tip if I get good service, or service that I thought was worth tipping I do the same in Finland. The problem with tipping is that when you’re used to being tipped and you don’t, you give that “why the fuck didn’t you tip? -face” to the customer which kind of makes it a requirement instead of the idea of tipping which is if you get good service, you can leave tip, if you get bad service, you still need to tip even though you don’t like it and also you have to tip them because they’re livelyhood is dependant on it, in Finland the tip is included in the bill, if the service was great, you can still leave a tip.
But yeah, what a fucking hassle tipping over every little thing, when you’re abroad it’s ok because you usually always have cash with you. You go buy a big mac in ruoholahti with your credit card, it’d seem weird to pull out a few cents for the employee behind the counter in addition.
Comment by Keksi — Wed, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 1:07 am
Oh yeah, and if every waiter made 80 000$ a year, I think every one would be waiter. And I wonder who agrees on that a waiter SHOULD make 80k a year. Probably not at least the people who spent 8 something years finishing their doctorate in business economics
duh
Comment by Keksi — Wed, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 1:20 am