Additional healthcare insurance required to play sports in Finland
Healthcare is supposed to be “free” in the welfare state, right? Well then why do I have to pay 25e for healthcare insurance so I can play in a no-contact, flag-football tournament this weekend? This isn’t tackle football or rock-climbing or jumping out of an airplane. And I didn’t see any discounts for students or the poor (but maybe I didn’t read it thoroughly).
I guess the reasoning is that sports are considered dangerous activities and we’re more susceptible to injury. But so are little old ladies walking down the street. So let’s start forcing them to pay an additional health insurance. I played organized sports back in the states and don’t remember having to pay for any extra insurance.
Honestly I think it’s a good idea, people who are more likely to get injured should pay more. All insurances work the same way, if you’re more likely to get in a car accident, you pay more. But the Finnish state doesn’t work that way, that just seem to pick on athletes. How about any of your who play league soccer, do you pay additional health insurance? You better, cause after watching the World Cup this year and watching these supposed “athletes” fall and cry like babies every 3 minutes, it looks to be a dangerous sport!
You don’t need extra health insurance to play any sports in Finland. You are entitled to free healtcare what ever you do or however stupid you are (like Doodsons).
You can also take voluntary insurance for your leisure time and that allows you to have private healtcare. In most cases it means quicker treatment you would get from city or state hospitals.
I know that when some sports tournament is arranged the participants have to pay an insurance fee. I am not sure what it is based on, but probably the organizes have to take an insurance and they collect is from the participants (Some smarter than me can correct this).
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 5:43 pm
Pro soccer has turned-into such a fag sport with all the faking of injuries. Plus, they spit on each other when their backs are turned. Seems like a large number of cowardly players are attracted to that game. I don’t really enjoy watching it.
Insurance…. I think Americans also pay extra from some types of sports, but maybe not soccer or other non-contact activities. I’m also pretty sure Americans pay extra for smoking.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 5:44 pm
Healthcare is not supposed to be “free” in the welfare state. It is meant to be free at the point of use and open to everyone on an equal basis, regardless of their economic standing. That is why it is funded (and thus not free) by taxation, which should be progressive in nature to ensure equality.
Whether you pay this 25€ fee or not, you would still have just the same right to go to the hospital if you injure something as somone who gets injured not playing sport.
Comment by JG — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 5:46 pm
Kristian - No, smokers don’t pay more. Not yet anyway. Ditto for alcoholics and heavy drinkers.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
*Sigh*
Oh dear. Bigoted people always succeed in pissing me off.
Didn’t think I’d run into bigotry towards gays in this kind of thread.. Oh well, live and learn. Apparently any subject (no matter how remote) can be used as a tool for inciting hatred.
“Pro soccer has turned-into such a fag sport..”
Thank you for this enlightening and so fair a description. I’m sorry but I seem to be unable to understand what’s the reason for using such a derogatory remark. I’m sure that all the “fags” on this forum and around the globe can now watch pro soccer with clear conscious. And all the inbred, asinine rednecks can now stop following the sport since it’s for “fags” only, of course.
(P.S. There’ve been faked injuries in soccer as long as the sport has existed, regardless of the player’s sexual orientation.)
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
“” Kristian - No, smokers don’t pay more. Not yet anyway. Ditto for alcoholics and heavy drinkers. “”
Are you a non-smoker? Do you pay tobacco tax? Of course not. It is a tax on the stupid people who pay it. The same goes for alcohol. The more you drink, the more you pay. The government makes plenty of money off of these two vice taxes.
Comment by SUPERinfer — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 7:06 pm
Free Health care is not free. Its taking money away (stealing) from one group for another that refuses to pay their way.
That how the money flow works, period.
Comment by winter — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
In the US you do pay more for life insurance if you smoke, at least.
Comment by SUPERinfer — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 7:10 pm
Free Health care is not free. Its taking money away (stealing) from one group for another that refuses to pay their way.
That how the money flow works, period.
As opposed to the system that lets its less fortunate or economically well-off people go without treatment and die, I think it is preferable.
Comment by JG — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 7:58 pm
…what’s the reason for using such a derogatory remark. I’m sure that all the “fags†on this forum and around the globe can now watch pro soccer with clear conscious. And all the inbred, asinine rednecks can now stop following the sport since it’s for “fags†only, of course.
I’ve got nothing whatsoever against fags. In fact, I’ll even tell you a nice redneck joke to make you feel better. Here it goes…
Question: Why do rednecks prefer sex doggy-style?
Answer: So they can *both* watch NASCAR auto racing
(P.S. There’ve been faked injuries in soccer as long as the sport has existed, regardless of the player’s sexual orientation.)
But I’ll bet those anal tears were real, eh?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 8:13 pm
Nonsmokers and nondrinkers are freeriders. They live longer, and the older they get, the more expensive their healthcare. Not to mention the pensions.
Comment by Erik — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 11:48 pm
Yeah you better make sure you die of lung cancer just when you’re retiring, not before.
Comment by m — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 1:07 am
Phil: incredible. Is the Finnish welfare state that desperate that it needs to find flimsy excuses to tax, especially when team sports support such welfare-statist ideals as community spirit and physical fitness? Or is this just another indication of Finnish state-sponsored anti-American bigotry?
For example, hockey and jalkapallo can also be dangerous. Do these teams get taxed, too? Or is it just American-style football that gets singled out?
Comment by Finnpundit — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 3:11 am
Free Health care means you, the bill payer, a chance to stand in line behind the so called needy.
I have cancer. If I was in Finland I would be offered surgery, or radiation, both with lifetime side effects. These side effects get worst as you age, as more of them show up.
But I live in America with Health Insurance. Not only do I get to the head of the line, I get better care, the newest treatment, with almost no side effects. In other words, I am cured, but other parts of my body are not taken out due to going the cheep route.
I do admit, that the Finish solution would cure me. But to live with the side effects, no frappin way.
I do admit that my treatment is not offered to the working poor. Its very costly (Can one say high end sports car), and that means rationing. Something I would rather see the free market do than a Government Official.
Comment by winter — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 3:22 am
I guess the reasoning is that sports are considered dangerous activities and we’re more susceptible to injury. But so are little old ladies walking down the street. So let’s start forcing them to pay an additional health insurance.
If you decide to participate in a sports event, the organizers can of course ask you to pay whatever they want for whatever reason, but the state can’t force anyone to pay an additional insurance for dangerous sports or walking down the street. Do you mean the little old ladies are taking part in a street walking event, and the organizers of that event should force them to pay?
It’s a good thing to have an additional sports insurance since the state doesn’t necessarily pay for all the rehabilitation one might need after an injury that takes long time to heal. It doesn’t matter how you got the injury, though, so they aren’t discriminating against athletes. This is the real issue instead of the state forcing you to pay something extra because they don’t.
Comment by mh — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 3:53 am
Free Health care means you, the bill payer, a chance to stand in line behind the so called needy.
Yeah, and to make matters worse, they might smell really bad too
But I live in America with Health Insurance. Not only do I get to the head of the line…
I guess some poor bastard gets to stand at the back of the line.
In other words, I am cured, but other parts of my body are not taken out due to going the cheep route.
Don’t worry, if they try to remove your conscience, they’ll never find it
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 6:05 am
“try to remove your conscience,”
had that done, must have been in a socialized medicine country and got the cheep job again.
No kidding guy/gals, if you get Cancer, they are now many options. Don’t take the first one offered. I can guarantee you its the cheep one. My first doctor was pissed I did not follow his so called advice. Shop around, if you can, compare, if you can, the best option for your case was not presented, that I can guarantee.
Research the words “therapy proton”.
Comment by winter — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 8:14 am
Winter, nobody stops you from having a private health insurance in Finland. You see, in Finland we have something we call *choice*.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 9:15 am
Who is charging you the fee and where does it go to? Presumably it must be the tournament organisers who have had to get some kind of additional insurance perhaps to do with the venue? Clearly your title is disingenuous because many of us here do sports of many different types and don’t pay any additional insurance. Maybe Finnpundit is right and this is specially conceived in the highest echelons of the government just to target American Football out of anti-US bigottry. Or perhaps he is completely off his trolley.
BTW proportionally rock climbing is much safer than, say, rugby or football (as your knee knows) or horse riding. Most climbing injuries are tweaked finger tendons or elbows. Annoying - as you need to stop climbing to let them heal - but hardly dramatic. As ever appearance of risk and risk are very different things.
Comment by Toby — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 10:56 am
And here’s the explanation in its all evilness: the insurance covers more than just the health care fees. If you happen to break your neck, your family doesn’t have to pay for your burial, for example. Or if you end up in a wheel chair, you’ll get a fixed compensation. All responsible teams, leagues and what not, even many firms, have these kinds of sports insurances. And they are evil enough to demand you to pay, they’re stealing your money!
But if you already have paid for a sports insurance, in your membership fee for example, then it may be a rip-off, unless the purpose is to cover something different. Perhaps your insurance doesn’t for some reason cover these particular games. But hey, why don’t you find out? It shouldn’t be much more difficult than whining about it here.
And yes, finnpundit, it clearly is the time of the day for your medication.
Comment by tomia — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 11:42 am
And, eh, I just want to make sure that you understood: in order to find out why you were told to take the insurance, don’t contact the “government” - they’ve got nothing to do with it - but the organizer and/or the insurance companies in question. If somebody is trying to rip you off, it’s probably the insurance company (by selling an unnecessary insurance to the organizers).
Welcome to the world of free markets!
Comment by tomia — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 12:06 pm
For the fact challenged (well, read winter and that horror, Finnpundit) the US system costs more and is more inefficient than any of its “welfare state” competitors in Europe - or even Canada. This said, no human organization is perfect and our health care system has many deficiencies. This doesn’t really relate to Phil’s usual pseudopoint (you are such a troll) but besides sports injuries we lots of problems currently. If you get your basic doctor’s appointments through your employer, you are fine, but the health centres are steadily worsening. Public hospitals are still excellent and ridiculously cheap, but one wonders for how long.
Comment by mjr — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 1:33 pm
Follow the money. The 25e fee is your version of getting to the head of the line.
Appointments through your employer (He is paying a fee), are your version of getting to the head of the line.
Now do you smell the stink yet, of all those poor folks you just bypassed?
Comment by winter — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 3:11 pm
Well, winter, I’ll make an exception and take you seriously for this once, as unserious intellectually as you are - and it is actually a good point (probably randomly achieved): things used to be much better but the situation has changed so gradually that there hasn’t been a serious debate about this issue. The health care centres used to be so universally efficient (having the same doctors anyway) that the discrepancy wasn’t disturbing. These days if you have Diacor or Mehiläinen or any private medical centre, you are usually very much or even hugely better of than if you were solely depending on your local health care centre. This said, in many areas they still are excellent. (Not to confuse things, and this being Finland, also the private centres are subsidiced to a degree.)
Comment by mjr — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 4:02 pm
“randomly achieved” ??? It real easy to watch your health care system move Private. Really, do you think Government Officials are going to run a system that needs controls, that politics will never allow them to be implemented?
Thus going private allows the Government to have someone to blame, and not take the heat.
Your health care needs to move from Medieval times, to Star Trek times. That transition will mean Rationing, something only the private sector can do right now.
As McCoy (Star Trek days) would say, “Its barbaric†referring to your current cut the tumor mentality. Right now your medical system is equivalent to the blood letting of the 18th century.
Comment by winter — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 4:27 pm
Hmm, okay winter, back you go to the brainless trolls category… If this is medieval one wonders what age would the US health care system be representing. Not to rehearse banal truths but the free market can only work in publically controlled and regulated spaces. There is a tipping point when the rule of law becomes so weak that the economy turns into robber baron territory. Well, I guess we already know what the Bush administration and the US conservatives think of the rule of law - one of those quaint ancient concepts, stuff happens all the time and you don’t want to “tie the hands of the executive branch”, just like any old tyranny…
Comment by mjr — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
Your health care needs to move from Medieval times, to Star Trek times.
winter, winter, where do your true, unconscious symphaties lie? I mean, the Star Trek world is totally socialist.
Comment by tomia — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 6:38 pm
Thats funny, except protons being an offshoot of US Nuke research, is a fully funded commercial enterprise. The gov did not fund this private technology push, but sure will take credit. Al Gore, you out there?
So much for a free market not working. It works exceptionally well.
Regulation? Well except that protons fell below the Government radar screen and were not regulated except as a normal market regulated radiation therapy, we can blast that notion that markets need regulation right out of orbit.
Comment by winter — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 7:08 pm
“For the fact challenged (well, read winter and that horror, Finnpundit) the US system costs more and is more inefficient than any of its “welfare state†competitors in Europe”
“US system costs more and is more inefficient”
MORE INEFFICIENT!!! 100% not true. Talk about fact challenged.
Finnish system is great if you have a cold, or want to fake sick and get a paid day off of work. It works very efficiently in that way. If you have a deadly disease or a heart attack, the best place in the world to be is in a major US city.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 11:01 pm
Well, once again I refer to excellent summing up below - the statistics are correct, all can draw their own conclusions, freely:
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/real-crisis.html
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:00 am
For example, hockey and jalkapallo can also be dangerous. Do these teams get taxed, too? Or is it just American-style football that gets singled out?
Yes, Finnpundit, there is a welfare-statist conspiracy against American football. All the more reason to nuke Finland.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:25 am
Sure, just pick you statistic “yet rank near the bottom among industrial countries in indicators from life expectancy to infant mortality.”
then you get to proudly say the system stinks, because it cost to much.
But, what about the quality of care?
What about the side effects of that care, that lead to 2nd operations to fix the first successful operation to is then be fixed by the 3rd operation to fix the second successful operation.
No, I will pay for a US system any day for Quality of Life. Side effects, quality of care, quality of life, all cannot be judged by money vrs life expectancy statistics.
Comment by winter — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:27 am
A day off tomorrow, Phil?
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 2:51 am
Infant mortality and life expectancy. The two statistics the left loves to bring up in the health care debate. Also, the two that have very little to do with the health care system.
Life expectancey- Life expectancey has very little to do with health care. People who live the longest rarely, if ever, visit the docter. They live healthy lifestyles and have the right genetics. Lifestyle is by far the largest factor in life expectancey. Americans(on average) lead the most unhealthy lifestyles in the modern world, by a long shot. It’s a testement to our health care system that we are even close to other countries in life expectancy. Also, many areas of the US have a much higher life expectancy than European countries and they don’t have a NHS.
Infant mortality- Most countries in the modern world have prenatal care, delivery, check ups much the same as the next country. It is not a groundbreaking area of medicine or very complicated, or EXPENSIVE, in comparision to other fields of medicine. In Europe people have less babies, and will abort them before they are born if the are found to have health problems or if they don’t want them.
Aborted babies are not counted in infant mortality rates. Drug babies are much more common in the US. Welfare babies are more common. Babies delivered with known medical conditions are more common. Accidentally conceived babies carried to full term are more common. All these kids have lower survival rates. These conditions are created by the mother of the child, not by the health care system. I would be willing to bet(I don’t have facts to back this up) that more than half of the infant mortality rate in the US can be attributed to drug use.
Comment by maksalaatikko — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 6:07 am
Um, maksalaatikko, are you aware that the abortion rate is bigger in the US than in most EU countries?
Comment by N. Siinistö — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 9:53 am
There’s a Finnish woman who had a kid in Finland, then moved to the states and is now having a kid there…and she’s going to compare the experiences which are already pretty profound. - http://livingwithpeanut.blogspot.com/2006/09/tex-arriving-early-2007.html It should be pretty interesting to follow given all the misinformation Finns seem to have about US healthcare and just how minimally basic health care is here.
Siinistö - Yes, but the demographic is different. Those in higher risk groups tend not to abort, i.e. about 80% of abortions performed are on white and middle-class women.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 10:14 am
Ok, I see that net usage is surprisingly difficult, the article referred to was the first of SIX, plenty of other things as well, and again, the statistics are correct - indeed the whole matter is painfully obvious, but of course only, if you are reality based and accept englightenment rationality as the basis for social and political debate…
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/health-care-in-us-and-world-part-i-how.html
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 10:33 am
Sorry, the first of SEVEN. And just to be sure, all the links below. Again, the statistics are from the public domain, and can be checked by anyone of even moderate intelligence (this may or may not include Finnpundit…)
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/performance-of-us-health-care-system.html
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/waiting-for-health-care.html
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/health-care-in-us-and-world-part-ii.html
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/health-care-in-us-and-world-part-ii.html
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/health-care-in-us-and-world-part-iii.html
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/health-care-intelligence-failure.html
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 10:36 am
and she’s going to compare the experiences which are already pretty profound.
Yes indeed, the doctor has already managed to rip off the insurance company with close to 2 000$. No wonder the American system is in a profound financial crisis.
One could also ponder how come the infant mortality is at such alarming levels in the USA if everybody gets such “excellent” a service. (”Excellent” is in quotes because anything that is so inefficient as the American health-care system should not be called excellent.)
But I’m sure that her chances to get a healthy kid are as good as in Finland if not better. The problem are the women or girls who can’t afford good service - and those who don’t care or understand, a problem which a well-funtioning system should address.
What amazes me is the denial you’re in. Why don’t you want to believe those hundreds upon hundreds of American experts who talk about the alarming state of the health-care system over there. Instead you externalize the problems as “Finnish misinformation”.
But hey, if I recall correctly Massachusetts - and Boston - is moving towards a universal health-care system, finally following the rest of the civilized world. That should correct the worst problems, like the huge costs and inequality. Perhaps they’ll even realize the need of the universal counselling (neuvola).
Comment by tomia — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 11:18 am
mjr - a) it’s a blog, a politically biased one and b) they don’t cite their sources so it’s not exactly the most credible source of bile.
My mother was an MD and I grew up in a downtown, inner-citey trauma center where they would take all the cases, read un-insured, that no other hospital would. I’m really familiar with the problems and I even used to be very pro-socialised medicine. Yes, there are problems in the US system but, again, Finland has a tiny homogenous population whose health care system is already feeling the strain…there is no way on earth that system would work in the US. Some states are trying to solve it. However, the point is that if you do have good health insurance in the US, it beats the pants off the system here. Would my father-in-law wait 6 months for a prostate cancer operation in the US? No. Would I go two months without pre-natal care? No.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 11:21 am
tomia - ‘rip off’? Have you ever seen what the private or public docs here charge back to the government? Medical care ain’t any cheaper here, just less willingness to spend on it. I don’t consider seeing a doctor in the first trimester a luxury. One of my colleagues’ whose wife was 8 weeks pregnant wanted to see someone as she felt like something was wrong…they wouldn’t do an ultrasound and so she had to go to a private clinic…to find out the fetus was dead and have an abortion. The public clinic just shrugged and said she would have aborted it sooner or later. Pretty shocking.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 11:26 am
Yes, but the demographic is different …
Ah, the old “if it wasn´t for those black people” argument.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 11:46 am
Siinistö - Well, race, class, insurance status and poverty as well as abortion are well tracked statistics. *shrug* Considering only 2% of the population in Finland is non-Finnish there really isn’t a comparison.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:12 pm
And Sweden?
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:19 pm
And France and Germany and Britain?
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:20 pm
It is just acceptable to shrug because these hopeless ex-SLAVES just will not learn to have a low infant mortality? A lovely image of conservative US attitudes. Disgusting.
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
Ah, the old “if it wasn´t for those black people†argument.
It is just acceptable to shrug because these hopeless ex-SLAVES just will not learn to have a low infant mortality? A lovely image of conservative US attitudes. Disgusting.
mjr—I don’t think you have an understanding of race relations in America. I doesn’t compare to any European country.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:28 pm
One wonders (and shudders to think) what that “understanding” would be. In case, the question here seems to be can we delete any inconvenient data from the US social statistics. I would argue that only if you delete inconvenient people themselves. Mentally that seems to have been done in some sections of the society.
Thanks very much for the kind offer but I think I’ll stay with the welfare state…
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:41 pm
In any case, not “in case”…
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:42 pm
Phil: incredible. Is the Finnish welfare state that desperate that it needs to find flimsy excuses to tax, especially when team sports support such welfare-statist ideals as community spirit and physical fitness? Or is this just another indication of Finnish state-sponsored anti-American bigotry?
For example, hockey and jalkapallo can also be dangerous. Do these teams get taxed, too? Or is it just American-style football that gets singled out?
All teams must have an insurance of some kind. A bit like all employers must have an insurance. Now as some teams are less rich than some other teams, in some teams you have shell out more dosh for that insurance in some other teams they have already a deal. It also depends a bit on the sport - I think in sähly you need to pay a tenner.
Of course in the USA the solution is to sue the team, the oppenents, the guy thet farted when you slipped and the hot dog vendor.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:50 pm
mjr - No, Kristian is correct…you don’t understand the problem or the issues. It doesn’t make me a racist, just reading the statistics from the US census bureau. Also, you’re forgetting the illegals from south of the border way.
Finland doesn’t appear to break out such mortality statistics according to race or nationality or indicate what percentage make use of private care.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:04 pm
Hank - So what does the insurance cover then if nobody here sues for liability?
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:06 pm
One wonders (and shudders to think) what that “understanding†would be. In case, the question here seems to be can we delete any inconvenient data from the US social statistics.
mjr—I suggest that to make a more realistic statistical comparison, one would need to import about .8M people from Finland’s former slave colony, Somalia. Then, we could begin to compare—but not just compare statistics about how healthcare gets distributed, but also compare attitudes, within the respective populations, concerning how resources-in-general *should* be distributed.
In such a nightmare case, I suspect that Finland would cease to be a welfare state overnight.
I would argue that only if you delete inconvenient people themselves.
Yes! Now you’re beginning to understand European-Americans’ wishes and rationale :lol
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
I really do wonder what “understanding” would be - for what it’s worth, my views echo many similar, throughly researched and “experienced” American opinions. I think this “not understanding” might in their case then be simply “I think they are wrong in my view”… And maybe even in mine.
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
On second reading, maybe the version below is more clear, these non-editable comment threads are a drag…
I really do wonder what “understanding†would that be - for what it’s worth, my views echo many similar, throughly researched and “experienced†American opinions. I think this “not understanding†might in their case then be simply “I think they are wrong in my viewâ€Â… And maybe even in my case.
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:13 pm
But hfb, in every country and in any statistics there are groups below the average and other groups above the average. It seems extremely disingenuous (but indeed convenient) to just shrug away statistical data regarding below-average groups.
But of course we could do it in Finland too. I think from now on we should only use statistics from the nice, rich city of Grankulla. To just mention one example, I think their unemployment rate is practically zero. Who wants to think about those poor, sick, unemployed souls in Kuusamo anyway.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
mjr - Look at infant mortality rates by state, look at population statistics by race and by state, look at poverty stats by race and by state and look at health care and abortion by state and by race. What part of that isn’t clear? Infant mortality does correlate with race, class, poverty and state. Finns love Minnesota….check out their IMR.
Or, look at it another way - suppose Finland wasn’t a welfare state and had the somali population it has now double or triple in size with the same ~50% unemployment rate?
Add in the other immigrants with ~25-50% unemployment rate. What sort of effect do you suppose that would have on your infant mortality rate and other health related statistics?
Don’t be in such a rush to pull the race card as noticing trends doesn’t make one a racist and Finland isn’t exactly a racism-free zone either.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:42 pm
Siinistö - It costs about $300+ for an abortion and last I knew, folks on welfare or public health had to pay for said procedure unless they could get subsidised by one of the public clinics. That makes a big difference.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 1:48 pm
Yeah, editable posts would be nice. I’ve thought about that too. Hint Hint Phil, editable posts? Ok, I know, we should be grateful that we even have this
Something to consider is that 150-years-ago, Europe benefited from visionaries like Bizmarck, who instituted the first (AFAIK) concept of universal social care. So, Europeans’ thinking on this matter was shaped rather early. Now that we suddenly have immigration from poorer lands, our thinking is still in-tact for the most part.
Conversely, 150-years-ago, European-Americans were chopping-off the feet of African slaves who tried to escape. And there’s been hatred and segregation ever since then. When I was young, blacks were still getting lynched (hanged on trees by whites for Sunday, after-church recreation) in the southern US. Plus, consider that America is a land purely based on immigrants—with each newly arriving group being stinkier than the last—and the incumbent group feeling the new group should struggle just like they themselves did. It’s a certain sense of fairness, I suppose.
My point is that one can’t simply use statistics to judge a system, without first considering the underlying social conditions and history. It would be a mistake if Finland/Europe dismisses all parts of the US system just because death rates from one ethnic group dramatically skew the statistics. In my opinion, we need to make improvements in our systems here in Finland/Europe. We need to be open-minded enough to see what parts of their system work best and then cherry-pick those features.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 2:07 pm
One wonders, one just wonders that maybe that would not be a one-way street… Actually, I think that these sort of statistical pissing competitions are indeed somewhat fruitless (beyond the obvious overall status of affairs, such as that the US health care is both expensive AND inefficient and that the black population is unacceptably marginalized). So, ideally we should interweave the raw numbers into a larger framework of coherent social analysis. But then again that would be far too nuanced when discussing things with the likes of Phil, winter and that horrid little Finnpundit - they don’t do nuances. (I wonder actually what they do at all in an intellectual debate - they don’t at least seem to be doing intelligence much.)
Comment by mjr — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 2:34 pm
Wasn’t Bizmark very pro-biz unlike his brother Bismark?
Ha ha.
As fo cherry picking, I don’t think there’s much to pick if we’re talking about the health-care system. Sure, you can get good service, but so can you in Finland, too. If not otherwise then by taking a private insurance. Hell, with something like 3 000€ a year you can take a trip to the USA to get treated, if that’s what you want.
Comment by tomia — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
hfb and her statistics! I was once in the USA and saw what it’s really like, with my very own eyes. I know the truth. Statistics just lie, in particular if they are made by the corrupt American officials.
Comment by tomia — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
Wasn’t Bizmark very pro-biz unlike his brother Bismark?
I think Bizmark is actually the ink-jet printer company…..oh wait, maybe that’s Lexmark
Perhaps we’re both really talking about Bismarck?
One wonders, one just wonders that maybe that would not be a one-way street…
If you mean that America should perhaps look at some of our ideas…. Then, yes, maybe some of our ideas might indeed benefit them—not all, but possibly some. However, what America does is up to America. I live in Finland, so, naturally, I’m more interested in what happens here.
Incidentally, I saw a news report about how hispanic Americans are beginning to look toward Venezuela’s socialist philosophy for answers to their own plight. Keep in mind that Venezuela’s socialism doesn’t resemble Europe’s or even Finland’s. Instead, theirs is inspired by the likes of Che Guevara/ Castro/ Chavez/ Vietcong and other assorted ‘revolutionary’ movements.
I’m not in favor of far extremes in either direction. So, I don’t see this as being very positive. But, I theorize that if America doesn’t do something to provide some dignity to its ethnic underclass, then it’s going to have some nasty political movements to deal with in the future.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
mjr should go back to his Pietist musings, instead of bragging about how much “nuanced” research he has done. But of course, his bigotry gets the best of him in the end.
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000019.html
The problem is that international statistics on infant mortality are helpful in revealing large differences, but when it comes to small differences such as that between Cuba and the United States, often other factors are really behind the numbers.
The primary reason Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the United States is that the United States is a world leader in an odd category — the percentage of infants who die on their birthday. In any given year in the United States anywhere from 30-40 percent of infants die before they are even a day old.
Why? Because the United States also easily has the most intensive system of emergency intervention to keep low birth weight and premature infants alive in the world. The United States is, for example, one of only a handful countries that keeps detailed statistics on early fetal mortality — the survival rate of infants who are born as early as the 20th week of gestation.
How does this skew the statistics? Because in the United States if an infant is born weighing only 400 grams and not breathing, a doctor will likely spend lot of time and money trying to revive that infant. If the infant does not survive — and the mortality rate for such infants is in excess of 50 percent — that sequence of events will be recorded as a live birth and then a death.
In many countries, however, (including many European countries) such severe medical intervention would not be attempted and, moreover, regardless of whether or not it was, this would be recorded as a fetal death rather than a live birth. That unfortunate infant would never show up in infant mortality statistics.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 5:11 pm
“hundreds upon hundreds of American experts who talk ”
and thats what they do talk.
The only good indicator of a good system (economic, medical, political all fall in the indicator) is to look at the people who vote with their feet.
Do people go to the USA for care? Yes. We have the most advanced system in the world, and the world comes to the USA.
Its that simple.
Comment by winter — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 7:02 pm
“Would my father-in-law wait 6 months for a prostate cancer operation in the US?”
Please don’t get cut if you have cancer. This is Barbaric, and should only be done in 3rd world countries without advanced medical care. There are now many options for Cancer. Do not take the first one offered. Its the low cost option, I guarantee.
Comment by winter — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 7:11 pm
“The U.S. health-care system is doing poorly by virtually every measure. That’s the conclusion of a national report card on the U.S. health-care system, released Sept. 20. Although there are pockets of excellence, the report, commissioned by the non-profit and non-partisan Commonwealth Fund, gave the U.S. system low grades on outcomes, quality of care, access to care, and efficiency, compared to other industrialized nations or generally accepted standards of care. Bottom line: U.S. health care barely passes with an overall grade of 66 out of 100….The poor grade is particularly discomfiting, the researchers note, because the U.S. spends more on medicine, by far, than any other country. Approximately 16% of the nation’s gross domestic product (GDP) is devoted to health care, compared with 10% or less in other industrialized nations….
–Only 49% of U.S. adults receive the recommended preventive and screening tests for their age and sex.
–Only half of patients with congestive heart failure receive written discharge instructions regarding care following hospitalization.
–Nationwide, preventable hospital admissions for patients with chronic health conditions such as diabetes and asthma were twice as high as the level achieved by the best performing states.
–Hospital 30-day re-admission rates for Medicare patients ranged from 14% to 22% across regions.
–One-third of all adults under 65 have problems paying their medical bills or have medical debt they are paying over time.
–Only 17% of U.S. doctors use electronic medical records, compared with 80% in the top three countries.
–On multiple measures across quality of care and access to care, there is a wide gap between low income and the uninsured, and those with higher incomes and insurance. On average, measures for low income and uninsured people in these areas would have to improve by one-third to close the gap.
–As a share of total health expenditures, insurance administrative costs in the U.S. were more than three times the rate in countries with integrated payment systems.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20060921/bs_bw/tc20060921053503
Comment by tim73 — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 7:52 pm
Tim73
You missed the point. Sure there is waste, but when the feet get moving where do they go?
Follow the feet. (Great country, every one wants in, not out)
Comment by winter — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 1:26 am
Winter: Are you signing up for the south or the north for your civil war?
Comment by tim73 — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 1:30 am
The gov did not fund this private technology push, but sure will take credit. Al Gore, you out there?
So much for a free market not working. It works exceptionally well.
Sure winter, the Fermilab synchrotron just fell out of the sky. No, it’s privately funded. Really! It’s truly called the McDonald’s Accelerator Laboratory!
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 2:12 am
“the Fermilab synchrotron ” was built for making a bomb. Thus just like Teflon, the free enterprise knows how to commercially make it work.
Comment by winter — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 3:15 am
My god winter, don’t you really know that hundreds if not thousands of people die yearly when attempting to enter the EU illegally? Did they leave this fact out of the Völkischer Beobachter?
Comment by mjr — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 11:57 am
They have been experimenting neutron capture treatment (BNCT) for patients with advanced stage brain tumors at TRIGA nuclear reactor facilities of VTT (a government research institute) in Espoo. The results have been promising. I doubt that some private company in Finland would have invested in nuclear reactor to provide treatment for few patients yearly.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 12:36 pm
“the Fermilab synchrotron †was built for making a bomb.
What bomb would that be, winter?
Just a hint: nuclear physics is a bit out of your league intellectually.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
Well, a good example of government inefficiency is this US habit of flying people for the governments of other countries to torture. What is that, don’t they know the price of fuel these days? Private enterprise would have naturally done the torturing itself. I’m glad to see that finally the US is fully moving into this direction by de facto exempting the CIA from Geneva Convention. Of course, private enterprise would surely not have signed to any high falutin’ Conventions in the first place, and didn’t they even write about the Geneva Convention in the Book of Revelations as being one of the signs of the anti-Christ coming? Anyway, typical government inefficiency can also been seen in that our CEO president was forced to abandon his great idea of formally declaring the Geneva Convention null and void for all the US officials (though it might still apply to other countries, I gather).
Comment by mjr — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 1:36 pm
What bomb would that be, winter?
Hey winter, just tell us it was the kind America used to murder a quarter-million people in Japan during WW2. Of course, targeting civilians is OK if it helps win a war—you know, it demoralizes them.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
Did they leave this fact out of the Völkischer Beobachter?
Come on, that is for the intellectual elite. Our pal winter is clearly a Stürmer man.
Wayve the flag!
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
“thousands of people die yearly when attempting to enter the EU”
more genocide by the EU?
I thought you guys carried the compassion flag?
Comment by winter — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 5:23 pm
more genocide by the EU?
Yep. I thought that killing people was good.
I thought you guys carried the compassion flag?
We’re conservative in our compassion.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 6:49 pm
Although I like to kid-around with winter, I have to agree with him about the quality of medical care in the US vs. Finland—and I agree with hbf too. It’s, without a doubt, better in the States.
I won’t say that it’s a direct result of a better ’system’ though. But maybe that’s hard to say. One difference that comes to mind is how much more education an American doctor must undergo to practice. Please correct me if I’m wrong:
Finland:
6-yrs. medical school/ internship
US:
4-yrs. undergraduate degree
5- to 6-yrs medical school/internship
Ok, I know that the undergraduate degree doesn’t count as medical training per se, but it DOES perhaps lead to a professional who is more capable of analyzing and communicating. And let’s face it, Finnish docs aren’t the most wonderful communicators. It’s really hit-or-miss according to my experiences.
There are some procedural differences too. Consider this:
In the States, it’s standard procedure for the doc to always check blood pressure—even if your visit only involves a sprained finger. Not kidding. The finger won’t cause a heart attack, but, since the patient is already in the office, it’s a good excuse to check blood pressure as a preventative measure.
In fact, if a patient suffers a heart attack one month later, then the doctor can be sued if blood pressure wasn’t checked.
But, no, apparently Finnish doctors know better. I went to the doctor for shortness-of-breath. I was shocked when he didn’t even check my b/p, so I mentioned it to him. His response was: “There’s no need, it’s probably ok.”
Well, how the fuck does he know if it’s ok, if he never checked it?!
I practically argued (yes, argued!) with the asshole to check my b/p. Finally, he relented and asked the nurse to perform the test. She found the little pump-device somewhere in a closet and dusted it off. Actually, I’m not even sure if she’s a nurse; who knows, she might be the health clinic’s secretary; because, apparently, checking b/p isn’t very important….
That type of stubborness really makes me wonder about the types of blunders they cause in serious cases.
Anyway, our social system pays for doctors’ schooling, so maybe that’s why they skimp on the extra 4-years; otherwise, it wouldn’t be affordable. So, basically, our doctors have Master’s degrees, unless they specialize in something. But, when compared with US specialists, the US specialists still have that extra 4-years.
When we compare the Finnish and US medical systems, I don’t think we’re comparing the same things.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 8:48 pm
“neutron capture treatment (BNCT) for patients with advanced stage brain tumors at TRIGA nuclear reactor facilities ”
Thats the first step. Then what happens is it goes into a production line to treat the masses. One place in the USA has treated over 11,000.
Thats a small number, but 2 more units just opened up (look up MD Anderson Proton Therapy unit in Texas), with 3 more in the building stages. It takes 3-5 years to build a unit and get the full production line running.
Comment by winter — Sun, Sep 24th, 2006 @ 2:03 am
I can’t find Finland on the Proton Therapy World-wide list:
Proton Therapy World-wide
Table 1. Proton Therapy World-wide Total Treatments
Facility Location Number Treated Date
Berkeley 184 USA 30
Uppsala Sweden 491 Jan-04
Harvard USA 9116
NPTC, MGH USA 1167 July-05
Dubna Russia 442 July-05
Moscow Russia 3833 July-05
St. Petersburg Russia 1281 May-05
Chiba Japan 145 Apr-02
Tsukuba Japan 1356 June-05
PSI Switzerland 4412 July-05
Clatterbridge England 1372 Dec-04
Loma Linda USA 10324 July-05
Louvain-la-Neuve Belgium 21
Nice France 2861 July-05
Orsay France 2805 Dec-03
iThemba LABS South Africa 475 May-05
MPRI USA 55 July-04
UCSF - CNL USA 632 June-04
TRIUMF Canada 98 July-05
H. M. I, Berlin Germany 604 July-05
NCC, Kashiwa Japan 300 Oct-04
HIBMC, Hyogo Japan 617 May-05
INFN-LNS, Catania Italy 82 Oct-04
WERC Japan 19 Oct-04
Shizuoka Japan 195 July-05
(WPTC) Wanjie China 33 Jun-05
TOTAL 42,766
Please if you have Cancer, there are alternatives to surgery.
Comment by winter — Sun, Sep 24th, 2006 @ 4:56 am
I can’t find Finland on the Proton Therapy World-wide list:
That is because we have an even better form of therapy. We import white flags from France and wayve them frantically. The electromagnetic radiation resulting from the continuous acceleration cures all cancers.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Sep 24th, 2006 @ 8:22 pm
“We import white flags from France”
you mean you don’t all just use your white t-shirts, which help the employment of a white flag in all cases requiring some action on the EU’s part. I know its just easier to criticize the USA, and do nothing on one part, but why buy from the French? (That is action, which you are not known for).
Comment by winter — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 2:17 am
Yeah, the KELA wonder. My hubby injured his arm during a pesäpallo match. There was no way to fix it when applying to KELA (at least not in this life). “Too old”, he’s mid 40 and could hardly move the arm. Fortunately Tapiola took over the cost and he had a nice day in Eiran Sairaala for some 5.000 Euros. But even having the free time insurance, they checked very carefully if it is “worth” any more to fix this old man
Eira did a great job!
Comment by Sunny — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 10:30 am
but why buy from the French? (That is action, which you are not known for).
Much like with wine, it is better to import the real thing from France than trying to make it yourself.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 10:43 pm
“Much like with wine, it is better to import the real thing from France than trying to make it yourself.”
Besides, ordinary white flags are electrically neutral, thus produce no radiation, when accelerated. Only the french ones work in this special application…
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 11:17 pm
Besides, ordinary white flags are electrically neutral, thus produce no radiation, when accelerated.
Yep, only French white flags have negative charge. Lots of it.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 11:32 pm
Actually you need the positive charge to be spun off to get Proton Radiation. French negative charged white flags are the old way to do radiation.
Good background video here:Proton Video
Comment by winter — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 11:40 pm
Try this for the video:
mms://mdavs1.mdacc.tmc.edu/media/patiented/108.wmv
> copy and put in a window, then hit return
Comment by winter — Mon, Sep 25th, 2006 @ 11:42 pm
Hmmm, speaking of protons, I heard about this German professor conducting research and experiments with high energy proton beams. Later on he had some very rare type of nasal cancer. When his working practices were examined, they noticed that he usually prepared his experiments with the beam on and many times the beam hit his nose, as he was tinkering with the precision adjustments.
His radiation dose was very well localized. I guess the difference in the cancer treatment to traditional gamma- or X-ray irradiation is that in the former you shoot the tumor with a rifle and in the latter with a shotgun.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 8:15 pm
Argh…Some quantum mechanical decoherence for you all. The proton beam compares to the rifle and X/gamma rays to shotgun.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 8:25 pm
Argh…Some quantum mechanical decoherence for you all. The proton beam compares to the rifle and X/gamma rays to shotgun.
Is this about wavelength? Shouldn’t alpha particles be even more precise then?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 8:46 pm
“shoot the tumor with a rifle and in the latter with a shotgun.”
I asked the radiation tech about accuracy. They plan and get a .5cm accuracy in placement of the Proton Beam onto the target tumor.
Also Proton stop at the target, release their energy. Nothing goes past. But x/gamma rays go all the way through and out the other side. No real stopping point, thus the shot gun effect.
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 9:29 pm
For the Technical redneck one, look up “Proton’s Bragg Peak”
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 9:51 pm
The problem is more about typical radiation patterns of the traditional X/gamma ray sources. Piece of Cobalt-60 or the X-ray tube radiates almost in all directions. It is hard to turn it into a confined beam, as we don’t have much of mirrors or lenses, which are effective on X/gamma ray wavelengths, but we can always confine charged particles, such as protons, with magnetic fields. If we could have similar X-ray laser as we have on the optical wavelengths, that might perhaps pull the trick.
Problem with alpha particles is that they can hardly penetrate the outer layers of skin, however they would make great damage to the cancer cells. BNCT therapy actually works on alpha particles. The tumor is injected with boron, which captures the neutron and splits emitting an alpha particle. As the alpha is not able to go very far, it does it’s job pretty closely within the tumor and the damage to the healthy tissue with no boron in it is quite minimal.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 9:56 pm
#96 was to Franklin at #93. As winter points out, the X-ray laser would also go all the way through, so one could not adjust the depth, where the maximum tranfer of energy from the beam to tissue would take place.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 10:07 pm
Thanks for the tip, Mr. Winter at #95
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 10:36 pm
Antti
change your nick name to “the Technical redneck one”. That was a good discussion on how alpha particles work. Short and to the point.
Question on killin Cancer. With Protons, I think they kill the entire area, with great accuracy. My doctor says its changing the tissue to scar tissue, which is then reclaimed by the body. So I lose good tissue and all the bad Cancer tissue.
Would alpha particles do the same, or would they be more targeted?
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 26th, 2006 @ 11:47 pm
My doctor says its changing the tissue to scar tissue, which is then reclaimed by the body.
So, you’re actually being treated with this. Isn’t it good that the US taxpayers bought you 50 years of cyclotron research to make it possible? When did you intend to pay them back, by the way?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Sep 27th, 2006 @ 8:46 am
Well, in principle, you could have even better targeting with the alpha particles, as they practically release all their energy, when hitting a paper. But for the same reason you need to place the alpha source right into tumor and all over it. Although the energetic alpha particles kill the cells they hit first very effectively, they don’t travel very far in tissue, as a wet paperbag is enough to stop them.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Wed, Sep 27th, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
” wet paperbag is enough to stop them” so getting inside the tumor is the problem. Protons can be targeted to stop inside the target zone, then spread out to cover the entire tumor area. Seems easier to set up a treatment if you have a particle what will travel.
The doctor says Protons have mass, thus can move through tissue. Mass seems to be the key.
Comment by winter — Wed, Sep 27th, 2006 @ 7:21 pm
…Or suitable mass to move through tissue, to be precise. Alpha particle is actually a combination of two protons and two neutrons (like the nucleus of Helium atom) and compared to the proton, it’s quite massive. If proton and alpha are given the same energy, alpha moves slower. As the transfer of energy from the particle to tissue is higher for slower particles, alpha loses it’s energy much quicker.
Also the electric charge of alpha is twice the charge of proton, so it gives about four times more of its energy on each electrical interaction with the tissue. In other aspects, the proton and alpha resemble each other. ‘The Bragg peak curve’ for alpha would be quite similar to that of proton with highly squeezed x-axis due to higher energy transfer.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, Sep 27th, 2006 @ 9:48 pm
“The Bragg peak curve’ for alpha would be quite similar to that of proton”
so results could be the same. So nows its a cost and control issue. Cost to generate should be the same, (High) but what control do you have with alpha? Can it be accelerated like the way Protons are accelerated? A 250 MeV synchrotron is needed to get the depth for Cancer killing.
Comment by winter — Wed, Sep 27th, 2006 @ 10:34 pm
Oops, I put the last sentence better: If you squeeze the ‘Bragg peak curve’ of the proton along the x-axis heavily, you approximately get the curve of the alpha particle, so the problem is still that the alphas don’t go deep enough.
If you shoot an alpha beam on person from outside, the alphas just release their energy already in the outer layers of the skin and the patient probably gets a skin cancer along with his current condition. It’s a different story, when you get this alpha emitting substance right on and inside the tumor, like in BNCT.
Acceleration of the alphas as such is no problem. You just strip the two electrons of a Helium atom and accelerate the positive nucleus with the accelerator of choice.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Thu, Sep 28th, 2006 @ 12:12 am
“Acceleration of the alphas as such is no problem. ” when you get a good low vacume. I will be taking the tour here, so get to see all this massive stuff.
Comment by winter — Thu, Sep 28th, 2006 @ 7:28 pm