Terrorists ready to pounce in Finland.
@ 5:10 am In one of those juvenile attempts to demonstrate that dramatic events could possibly happen in Finland, too, Aatos Erkko’s Helsingin Sanomat publishes an interview with Finland’s Security Police, SUPO, announcing that suspected terrorists are now being trailed in Finland:
The most serious suspicions in Finland have been associated with a grouping that is believed to have a plan for a terrorist act, says Selin. SUPO has also taken an interest in the flows of funding that may or may not have some links with this venture.
There is also empirical evidence that those individuals who have been under surveillance also know that SUPO has its eye on them.
Thanks, Aatos! We’re sure glad you know we need to know that.
But read on down the admittedly interesting article, and you’ll find a curious omission:
The British Sunday broadsheet “The Observer†was able to disclose details soon after the scheme was foiled…
(Note to Aatos: after the scheme was foiled), -
revealing how British and Pakistani security forces had got on the trail of the planned attack.
One of the most important tip-offs came from inside the British Muslim community, and as a result of this information the authorities set about monitoring the telephone traffic of those under suspicion. This sketched out a picture of a network in which certain individuals had a more significant role than others.
At much the same time, information came to light on e-mail addresses of some of the suspects, and the authorities began to follow the traffic through these addresses. The next stage involved phone-tapping, the bugging of apartments and houses used by suspects, and the planting of electronic tracking devices in vehicles.
Nowhere does Helsingin Sanomat reveal the most important source of evidence for the British: i.e., that which came from Pakistan’s torture of one of the ringleaders while he was visiting Pakistan. Aatos Erkko, of course, doesn’t want you to discuss the issues too much. For that, you need to turn to the blogosphere.
Now, given Finland’s predilection to do the morally right thing in every instance, shouldn’t eduskunta begin to debate the issue of whether SUPO should be allowed to use information that possibly came from the use of torture overseas in this case? There is a possibility that one of these fellows under surveillance might travel overseas, where he could be arrested and tortured. Isn’t it important for Finland to decide now whether it should accept any information gleaned from such a source? Why haven’t any of the political parties in eduskunta taken upon themselves, as guardians of Finland’s morality, to pre-empt the possibility that SUPO might be overeager to get information from such sources? And, finally, shouldn’t this debate take place now, before any further action regarding these potential terrorists are taken?
Come to think of it, it does look like SUPO may have sought the help of Aatos Erkko in getting publicity for this case, which makes flight for these potential terrorists a real possibility. Doesn’t that already imply that SUPO, like the British, could want to tip off security services in some Muslim dictatorship, in the hopes that they will do the dirty work Finns don’t deign to do? Shouldn’t concerned Finns do something about it?
” suspected terrorists are now being trailed in Finland:”
Oh no, you guys are the good guys???? I mean you never invade, don’t do anything at all, so why do they hate you?
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 5:25 am
You’re very excited about torturing people aren’t you Finnpundit? On your blog you seem to base this entire theory around the use of the word “break” in one wire report. Have you got any subsequent evidence to back this up? I’d be interested to read any links.
I believe that evidence that is obtained by torture won’t be admissable in a British court, so it seems that if MI5 did ask for the suspect to be tortured, as well as being illegal, it would also prejudice future trials against all those arrested meaning possibly they will all be released in the future.
Comment by Toby — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 10:21 am
Three questions:
1) What about the scores of innocents that get tortured by “mistake”?
2) What’s the credibility of anything produced under torture? People will say that they can catch their fart and paint it blue in order to avoid or stop being tortured.
3) Why are we debating if torture should be used as an “interrogation method” or not as it is clearly a violation of basic human rights? We might as well then start debating if witches actually float or not and if we should start testing the theory.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 10:38 am
Finnpundit does have a point though. A moral line should be drawn now and not when suspects are caught. In haste people (and police) usually do things that would later be regretted and heads would roll.
Better to consider these things on leisure.
Comment by iJusten — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 10:41 am
Aatos Erkko sits in a huge black leather chair in a dimly lit room, his face barely visible. In his lap is a white cat, which purs quietly as he gently strokes its fur.
“This… ‘FinnPundit’, as he calls himself, is on to our agenda. See to it that he is… disappeared,” Erkko drawls in a deep, sinister voice.
“Yes, sir!” a huge man in a black suit replies.
“Find out what he knows. Once he talks… Finish him.”
“Yes, sir!”
“Get it? *Finnish* him?”
“Yes, sir!”
“I slay me… as well as all opponents of the welfare state.”
Seriously, though, while FinnPundit apparently has a hard-on for interrogating Muslim men by sticking various common household items up their behinds, the article (which incidentally wasn’t written by Erkko) was concerned with methods the Finnish police uses to follow local terrorism suspects. The British case was quoted as supporting evidence that the methods work.
One would think that FinnPundit of all people would approve of close government surveillance of its citizens - for, you know, safety reasons. Here Hesari publishes a puff piece advocating the same, yet he still sneers at their efforts and starts blathering about the importance of listening to the Taliban’s best friends, the Pakistani secret police. The dude obviously has issues up the wazoo, but is he entirely incapable of saying something positive about anything connected with Finland?
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 10:54 am
Well, invading seems to be a perfect cure for the terrorism. I bet these guys would run screaming to the next Stockholm ferry, if we send one division to Iraq. And surely this operation would never piss off some people, who would have never heard of Finland otherwise.
Nope, in a small country you deal with the bad guys “over here”. It has always been so, give or take the Finnish guard along with Russians liberating Bulgaria from the Turks in the 19th century or Finnish cavalry in Germany and Poland during the 30 years war.
That is, if you can deal with them. One would think that we should be able to kick these mulquists out of the country with light conscience, if they are really up to something, but the noises from the flowerhat corner would probably make that impossible.
Hmmm, on the other hand, the state budget for the next year has been under construction and the police tends to trip on various threat scenarios at this time of the year…
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 11:09 am
@iJusten, post 4,
actually, could you name a few cases in which heads have rolled because innocent people were tortured and framed by the police? AFAIK, the cops who framed the Birmingham Six (to use a very relevant British terrorist trial as a example) are either retired with full benefits and honours or still on the job. Despite the fact that they knew, within a few months, that these people were totally innocent. A senior British judge even said that the problem was that we no longer have the death penalty, if we did, these people would have been hanged and forgotten, everything sorted. That is the way authorities really think about miscarriages of justice. Finnpundit doubtless agrees.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 11:32 am
Here’s a typical bleeding heart (the U.S Army’s deputy chief of staff for intelligence Lt. General Jeff Kimmons) take on this subject:
“No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tell us that. And moreover, any piece of intelligence which is obtained under duress, under — through the use of abusive techniques would be of questionable credibility. And additionally, it would do more harm than good when it inevitably became known that abusive practices were used. And we can’t afford to go there.”
http://www.defenselink.mil/Transcripts/Transcript.aspx?TranscriptID=3712
Now if we could only replace pussies like Kimmons with visionaries like Finnpundit.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 11:49 am
How exactly are SUPO’s scare tactics any different from Bush’s? They seem identical to me.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
@9,
they’re campaigning for a bigger budget and greater powers, that’s what agencies like Supo always do. But no major Finnish politician is running for anything on a FUD campaign.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 12:35 pm
2. Toby:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,,1844054,00.html
Comment by Finnpundit — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
Thankyou mr. Pundit. I had looked through the Observer this morning but had failed to turn anything up. So it appears that the allegation that he was tortured is only at the moment coming from a Pakistani human rights campaigner who not having first hand knowledge of the case assumes (probably fairly) on past behaviour of the Pak govt. that he must have been tortured.
Comment by Toby — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
Here’s the Telegraph’s take on it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/08/20/do2006.xml
Comment by Finnpundit — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 4:59 pm
What is this piece of possible misinformation supposed to prove? That torturing works?
Oh come on.
Even if it were so that the gained information happened to be the result of inhuman torture you can still ask yourself how many innocent people had to suffer under a blow torch and some pliers unnecessarily in order for this “breakthrough” to happen.
Unless of course you’re an unfeeling sociopath. Then no amount of suffering is going to move you in any way, naturally. In that case it’s totally irrelevant how many innocent people get their bodies and minds bruised, battered and bent out of shape in the name of War Against Terror. They’ve probably earned it anyway. For collaboration.. or something.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 5:34 pm
Ã…boy, perhaps it is rather trying to do something else, something that is very hard in the net, because some stupid git always mistakes satire for bluntness. Perhaps, he is asking why aren’t Finns whining about SUPO accepting evidence via torture, when the same people whine about US accepting evidence via torture. Both are bad, and neither should be accepted.
But perhaps, I am reading too much into this piece and its just exactly what it says.
Comment by Mikko — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 7:05 pm
CIA Torture Horror Revealed
“techniques sought by the CIA are: induced hypothermia; forcing suspects to stand for prolonged periods; sleep deprivation; a technique called “the attention grab†where a suspect’s shirt is forcefully seized; the “attention slap†or open hand slapping that hurts but does not lead to physical damage; the “belly slapâ€Â; and sound and light manipulation.”
Yes they will slap you…………its so not nice to do that, we must ban this stuff…………
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 7:40 pm
Even a continuous dripping of water can be turned into a genuine, mind bending torture horror. Torturing does not necessarily mean broken bones or punctured lungs.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 8:42 pm
Hypothermia, prolonged standing, sleep deprivation, physical abuse (such as slapping) and sound and light manipulations are all very effective and cruel ways of torture when done in the correct manner. For example, many forms of these ways of torture were also deployed by Stasi in the former East Germany.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 8:47 pm
I’d like to ask the Canadian citizen who was whisked by the US, sent to Syria and tortured for a year under the provisions of “extraordinary rendition” what he would think. By the way, he was found to be completely innocent of any wrong doing.
Comment by nipsu — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 9:07 pm
These guys blow up buildings, fly airplanes into buildings, and we are worried about “continuous dripping of water”
Shit, me thinks we have lost this big picture. They want to kill you Finland, and they will.
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 9:26 pm
These guys? And you mean who exactly? What makes you think that the people being tortured would actually have anything to do with terrorism?
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 9:35 pm
America’s shame just keeps growing.
The Faux Shirt Stain: Interrogator points at suspect’s chest: “Look, you’ve got something on your shirt.†When suspect looks down, interrogator brings up index finger, tweaking suspect’s nose. Interrogator laughs. This grievous affront, a loss of honor in the eyes of Allah, administers massive psychic trauma to suspect.
Repeat as needed for more shame. (Cry Cry Cry, look guys I am shedding real EU tears)
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 9:35 pm
“America’s shame just keeps growing.”
For once you got at least something right.
I’d like to see how you react to relentless interrogation after you’ve been kept in a pitch dark, freezing cold room with cold water up to your knees, being visited by a guard every now and then who slapped and punched you here and there and after you’ve been denied any kind of rest in this way for a couple of days. I think you really might cry those crocodile tears you so like to boast about in that sarcastic tone of yours.
But what the heck, you’d be willing to take one for the team, wouldn’t you? Afterall, they would only be doing their jobs.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 9:55 pm
…besides, little water and silly slapping never hurt anyone, right?
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 10:01 pm
I bet that after that kind of treatment you’d be willing to sign almost anything, even a paper that stated that you’re a communist muslim ninja from Mars. You’d probably even start to believe it yourself.
Yes. Let’s use torture.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 10:07 pm
“react to relentless interrogation after you’ve been kept in a pitch dark, freezing cold room with cold water up to your knees, ”
damm, that’s what happened in Navy training.
You mean that was torture?
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 11:28 pm
Yea, the EU support folks who shoot nuns in the back. No torture for the killers, just for those killed.
After all the Nun was provoking the Muslims, running around dressed like that. Now thats real torture to have to look at a Nun.
Comment by winter — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 11:50 pm
winter : No matter how much you brag about “Navy training, was that torture?!” it still doesn’t alter the fact that in real life torture HURTS people. It psychologically scars them for life. Try imaging nightmares for the rest of your days?
You’re attitude is truly sickening.
It really scares me, that there are so much people with the mindset like yours.
I Wish I didnt have to carry the collective shame of being a human.
Comment by Martti — Tue, Sep 19th, 2006 @ 11:56 pm
Your childish play sessions in the navy can not be compared to genuine torture, please don’t even try.
What has shooting nuns got to do with torturing random innocent people who happen to belong to the “wrong” kind of ethnic/social group?
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 12:02 am
“real life torture HURTS people”
you really have figured it out. It hurts people who would kill you. I just don’t have any problems taking the other guy out first, and not letting him get me.
Seems you guys love Nun killing. At least that alternative to torture is Ok to you.
Comment by winter — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 4:45 am
“I Wish I didnt have to carry the collective shame of being a human.”
It was sheer torture reading that line and trying not to vomit on my keyboard.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 4:51 am
“Seems you guys love nun killing.”
Noo, we have protestant backround. We’d like to help them to escape from the monastery, marry them and have many children. Just like Luther did.
Given the situation in Somalia, I wouldn’t place my bets yet, whether the nun was shot by the islamists or the local warlords, who up to quite recently were backed by a certain superpower.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 10:01 am
‘the EU supports folks who shoot nuns in the back’, winter, post 27
The US used to support people who gang-raped and murdered five American nuns (the military in El Salvador). But I suppose that was OK, they were on your side, while the nuns were showing plainly Communist leanings by not supporting mass murder and torture.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 10:22 am
Winter, you are not only an armchair strategist but a disgusting nazi.
Comment by Oregon — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 11:25 am
I went to Catholic school…where does one sign up to shoot nuns?
Comment by hfb — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 12:05 pm
Lets sum it all up
1) Terrorists have rights, no torture even if they know about the next killing.
2) The press is always right. I mean all those children killed in Lebanon, were killed by Israel. None actually fell from a play set, when playing, and were dug up later to show the dead.
3) if you are shot by the terrorists, none of the rules apply.
4) We will defend these killers, as we love them over the people they killed.
Why don’t you all just wear a T-shirt, saying. Please bomb me, we will not torture you in return. In fact we offer free dental care if you get caught.
Comment by winter — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
Bombshell: ABC independently confirms success of CIA “torture†tactics
Not only did they break Khaled Sheikh Mohammed; not only was the information he gave them valuable; not only did it save lives;
The best part, though? Learning that Ramzi Binalshibh cried like a three-year-old girl.
Comment by winter — Thu, Sep 21st, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
If torture is so efficient, why don’t we subject any suspect of any crime to “coercive interrogation”?
Comment by Oregon, disgusted — Fri, Sep 22nd, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
“subject any suspect of any crime” Huh, why???
Because we are humane, but not to the top 14 who want to kill us.
You either slap then around a little, or you get an commercial aircraft down.
Which result are you voting for? Dead passengers??????
Comment by winter — Sat, Sep 23rd, 2006 @ 1:31 am