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14.9.2006

Swedish elections this Sunday

Tags: Uncategorized — Author: @ 3:19 pm

Swedish unions are spending more on campaigns per capita than George Bush..!

Do you wonder why few Swedish politicians dare to suggest deregulation of the labour market to create more jobs?

According to Carl B Hamilton´s calculations, the trade union LO spends around 825 million SEK to get the social democrats elected this year. That is around 91.7 SEK per Swede.

In 2004, Bush´s presidential campaign cost 2.8 billion SEK. That is 9.5 SEK per American.

Per capita, LO´s campaign costs almost ten times more than Bush´s campaign.

And here’s a great article on Sweden from The Economist – Here’s some highlights…

But Sweden is a world champion at massaging its jobless figures, which exclude those in government make-work programmes, those forced into early retirement and students who would prefer to be working. Sweden’s suspiciously large number of workers on long-term sick leave are counted as working, and included in the employment rate (sickness benefits account for 16% of public spending). Absenteeism is common.

Earlier this year the McKinsey Global Institute, a think-tank, studied Sweden’s labour market. It found that the rate of employment among working-age people had declined in the past decade. Indeed, Magnus Henrekson of the Research Institute of Industrial Economics says that Sweden has created almost no net private-sector jobs since 1950* (see chart 2). Youth unemployment is among the highest in Europe. The McKinsey boffins conclude that the “true” unemployment rate is around 15-17%, which puts Sweden among the worst job-fillers in the EU. It translates into more than 1m people without work.

[...]But the biggest problem for immigrants, as for young Swedes, is work. A study of comparable Somali groups in Sweden and Minnesota found that less than a third of working-age Somalis in Sweden had jobs, half the share in Minnesota.

[...]Only one of Sweden’s 50 biggest companies was founded after 1970; and Sweden has the lowest rate of self-employment in the OECD.

[...]An overweening public sector has stifled growth in jobs in service industries. Sweden’s public sector is, indeed, the economy’s second big failing. Mr Nuder asserts that it is no worse than any other, and he claims that the Social Democrats welcome choice in education and health care. Yet Sweden’s public sector accounts for 30% of total employment, twice the share in Germany. And, although public-sector productivity figures are unreliable, one recent assessment of efficiency of input use puts Sweden at the bottom of all OECD countries.

[...]Given Sweden’s poor employment record and high taxes, why do so many voters stick with the Social Democrats? One answer, says Mr Lindbeck, is that so many are dependent on the state: some 30% work for it, and a bit over 30% receive transfer payments. Another answer is offered by Mr Rojas. Asked why the opposition’s programme is a lot more centrist than it was in 2002, Mr Rojas suggests that a big lesson from the past has been that it is a mistake to attack the government too fiercely, since “all Swedes are to some extent Social Democrats.” An attack on social democracy risks, in other words, being seen as an attack on Sweden itself.

[...]For their part, the Social Democrats’ programme amounts to no change. Far from cutting unemployment benefits, the government promises to raise them. As for liberalisation, Mr Nuder says baldly, “We have done enough deregulation.” Indeed, he sees little need for any further economic reforms. To Swedes who have full-time jobs, especially in the public sector, this promise of continuity may seem appealing. To the jobless young and immigrants, it will be less so.

swedish_stats.gif

  • Harri

    I think all welfare states are world champions at beatifying their unemployment figures.

  • Hank W.

    Well, the Estonian presidential elections are coming up as well. They’re haveing a bit of a crisis as the president is elected by the parliament, and none of the candidates is getting a clear majority.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    “…Sweden has the lowest rate of self-employment in the OECD.”

    I don’t know about Finland’s numbers, but our Social Democrats would also like to keep self-employment rates down. That policy ensures that they’ll always have reliable voters. After all, few who own productive businesses would vote SPD.

    That’s probably one good reason for why we Finns are so much poorer, in terms of purchasing power, relative to other countries. Instead of being entrepreneurial, everyone just wants to live-off the state’s transfer payments.

  • winter

    Taxes are Evil. Just another example of how your Taxes really sap the economy.

    God, there are so many examples, they keep piling up.

  • Boyle

    word “evil” is having an inflation here..

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Yeah winter, it’s the Nordics’ worst disease. Every problem has a solution: More taxes. We can’t seem to get away from the tax-mentality. It absolutely kills our domestic economy to the point where one needs to be wealthy to afford anything nice.

    I can almost understand Finland’s older, Soviet-influenced generation buying-into that notion of solving problems via taxes. After all, it’s what they’ve known all their lives. But I really hope the new generation has sense and courage to reform our system.

  • winter

    K

    “kills our domestic economy to the point where one needs to be wealthy ”

    and just how many Billonairs are there in Finland? ZERO (From Forbes)

    Its the TAX stupid.

  • JG

    I don’t see number of billonaires as a good way of measuring a healthy society. People do not need to have a billion euros, it’s almost obscene. It is right that the rich should pay a higher percentage of tax. They can afford to do so. But that does not mean taxation is the answer to all problems.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Well, we don’t really *need* Billionaires here…..unless one happens to be me. Then, I might re-think my position on that ;)

    Our taxes hurt lower-income people the most. They’re forced to pay high prices, due to our constrained and underdeveloped domestic economy.

  • Olli

    “it is right that the rich should pay a higher percentage of tax.”

    No it’s not. Society needs rich people, and there certainly isn’t much incentive to educate yourself and work hard if you’re penalised for it. You have the right to have the money you’ve earned.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    winter:
    and just how many Billonairs are there in Finland? ZERO (From Forbes)

    And are there Billonares in Sweeden or Belgum?

    Hint: higher taxes

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    It is right that the rich should pay a higher percentage of tax.

    Good luck with your progressive capital gains tax project. As it is, rich people pay less taxes than yours truly, for instance.

    Hint: wage earners are not rich.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    #12

    Yeah, that’s the problem in Finland. One first needs a large amount of money to take advantage of the tax breaks. They seem to know that it’s the only way to attract big corporations here; otherwise it would be too expensive for them.

    Of course, wealthy individual business owners can also take advantage of those breaks.

    I have a theory that it’s our government’s way of keeping the number of small entrepreneurs from getting too numerous; they would be in direct competition with unions and the general proletariat.

    Unfortunately, we all pay for this, due to the underdeveloped domestic economy which such a policy creates.

  • http://finnpundit.blogspot.com Finnpundit

    I don’t see number of billonaires as a good way of measuring a healthy society.

    Actually, the way to look at this is not the number of billionaires, but the amount of private capital being in play in the markets, instead of in government coffers, under the control of bureaucrats.

    Bureaucrats are simply not able to be faster or better positioned than the markets in deciding where investment is needed.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)
  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Kristian – Er…son, look at the date on that article. Everyone was a billionaire on paper before the bust. :) The richest person in Finland is the owner of the Sanomat empire but that’s only a couple hundred million.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    hbf—I saw the date, but I just assumed he got richer since then :) Ok, so I guess we had a billionaire. I’m thinking of becoming the next one :P

  • Drakon

    The number of billionaires in a given country does not measure the economic efficiency of said country, but only market access. If you look at the lists of billionaires by nationality, the big countries or members of economic alliances dominate. Until historically quite recently, it was very hard to move capital from country to country in the European and Asian markets, whereas the US has been a large common market area for, lets say, centuries. Thus a “billionaire gap”, which has been reduced all the time after the global liberalization of trade and movement of capital. Just look at Russia, a case in point. After the collapse of SU, billionaires have been springing up like mushrooms.

    Capital has a tendency to pile up on itself, and larger the market, the higher the individual peaks. The high number of billionaires in the US is not testament to suberb economic wisdom, only the outcome of a situation in which a free market area has spanned almost a continent for a long, prosperous period.

  • winter

    “high number of billionaires in the US is not testament to suberb economic wisdom”

    Hint.. Yes it is. It shows you are rewarding the productive workers, who only get more productive, and are not spending their time chasing all the freebees.

    Its your choice. Want to be a rich country, grow some billionaires. If you want to stay poor, then its your choice.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    It shows you are rewarding the productive workers

    If the owner of a company gives away money to productive workers, chances are he’ll never become a billionaire…

  • tim73

    “ts your choice. Want to be a rich country, grow some billionaires. If you want to stay poor, then its your choice.”

    So 10 filthy rich and 9990 dirt poor people is your choice of society? Brazil also has a few billionaires too but those at the bottom, stay at the bottom, just like in the US.

  • winter

    By the way, on my TV I see the UN is discussing the 1 Million currently being KILLED in Darfur.

    Guess what. The USA turned down that nice assignment.

    Just wondering who is left who will actually do something? I guess offering free dental care will not work here.

    Any ideas?

  • winter

    Never been a better time to enlist in the NAVY.

    This is to funny. (Because joining the Army is just stupid)

    link: navy_sopt.mp3

  • Anonymous

    “high number of billionaires in the US is not testament to suberb economic wisdom

    Hint.. Yes it is. It shows you are rewarding the productive workers, who only get more productive, and are not spending their time chasing all the freebees.”

    So the millionaires in Finland are too busy chasing freebies to become billionaires?

  • winter

    “So the millionaires in Finland are too busy chasing freebies”

    No, your 60% tax is

  • Anonymous

    You can become a millionaire in Finland. Does the possibility to earn a billion motivate people to do something that they wouldn’t do if they can only earn 500 million?

  • tomia

    Every problem has a solution: More taxes.

    And the most amazing bit is that at the same time the taxes have been going down for years now. That’s magic, I suppose.

    Instead of being entrepreneurial, everyone just wants to live-off the state’s transfer payments.

    And yet the relative number of firms is among the highest within the OECD.

    Just another example of how your Taxes really sap the economy.

    And yet our GDP growth is much faster than in the USA. Magic!

    Criticism based on flawed evidence can’t be productive in the long run in my humble opinion.

  • http://finnpundit.blogspot.com Finnpundit

    Drakon: The high number of billionaires in the US is not testament to suberb economic wisdom

    Yet Finland’s main industries, such as Nokia, get capitalized by markets where those billionaires were created, so your logic is completely faulty.

    And let us not forget that the Finnish welfare state was the direct beneficiary of loans from New York investment banks when the economy collapsed in 1992, as Finnish domestic capital was simply not enough to fill Finland’s capital needs.

    And yet our GDP growth is much faster than in the USA.

    Finnish GDP growth is directly linked to George Bush’s tax cuts, as European GDP growth boosts tend to have a 1.5 to 2 year lag time to those in the US.

    In any case, economic forecasts are already predicting a slowdown in European growth rates by the end of next year, as US growth rates have already slowed.

  • http://m-sandt.blogspot.com Mikko Sandt

    It’s disgusting how the Social Democrats and other commies have made people so dependent on the state’s welfare machine. Stupid ignorant idiots ruin the whole system (which is actually a good thing!) by voting for the wrong people just because they get free money! How stupid can people get?

  • tomia

    Finnish GDP growth is directly linked to George Bush’s tax cuts, as European GDP growth boosts tend to have a 1.5 to 2 year lag time to those in the US.

    That’s simply not true, Finnish econmy has done well for years, during the past decade or so better than that of the USA – as it did also in the 80s and even 70s when Bush was still just trying to evade Vietnam.

    Why does Finland usually do better than the USA? Well, it’s been studied in international compatitiveness comparisons, for example. And yeah sure, the conclusion they have reached is: because of the Bush tax cuts. Ha ha, that was funny wasn’t it!

    But I don’t expect you to change your mind. People like you never do, you just keep repeating the propaganda you’ve been brainwashed to blindly believe. Within a week you’ll be back making once again your silly “analyses”.

  • http://finnpundit.blogspot.com Finnpundit

    Finnish econmy has done well for years, during the past decade or so better than that of the USA – as it did also in the 80s and even 70s

    Finland has indeed seen growth rates greater than those of the US at times, but this must be put into perspective: there are states within the US (Oregon, California, Texas) whose Gross State Product growth rates have outperformed that of Finland, while Alabama, let’s say, might have trailed. The proper growth rate comparison is that between the US and the EU, so that the growth rates of laggards like Greece, Germany, etc. can be factored in with those of Finland.

    As for the 70-80′s Finland, it is quite clear that Finland enjoyed an incredible freeride courtesy of the Soviet Union, in terms of cheap energy sources, and market access for products that did not require as much quality control as in western Europe. It was very much part of the Soviet grand strategy to co-opt Finland into their sphere economically, regardless of the high cost of such a strategy. In the end, Finland became so dependent on Soviet trade that it wound up exporting more than it was importing (gotta keep those unemployment figures down, whatever the risk). This was possible as long as the Soviets put a bigger premium on the political strategy, while ignoring the economic ramifications on themselves.

    When the Soviet Union collapsed, Finland’s freeride came to an abrupt end, as not only were markets lost, but the Soviets/Russians wound up owing billions in unpaid bills for years to come. A rather high price to pay for freeriding, but that’s what’s needed to maintain a welfare state.

    Since 1992, Finland has successfully re-oriented its freerider economy towards the US and western Europe (which is even more oriented towards the US). But the price of the freeride is also high: as Finland (and Europe) do not have enough domestic demand for their own products, they become dependent on the well-being of an economy that does have great domestic demand, due to low taxation. We have seen over and over again how European markets respond retroactively to anything that happens in the US. One of these events is the immense boost the American economy got from Bush’s tax cuts, which increased US demand to the point that European GNPs are now on the rise again.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    That’s simply not true, Finnish econmy has done well for years, during the past decade or so better than that of the USA – as it did also in the 80s and even 70s…

    Yeah, I remember those years. This was the car of choice:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lada_1200.jpg

    We have a long history of doing well however, it never filtered-down to the people. We were always the ones who drove crappy cars, although we paid luxury car prices due to the car tax. We’ve gotten used to shooting ourselves in the foot economically; now we can’t seem to shake the habit.

    Why does Finland usually do better than the USA?

    If I remember correctly, Finland’s GNP/GDP during the 70′s and 80′s was roughly 2/3 of America’s. I think only Germany’s was higher than America’s. Maybe Japan’s too, but I’m not sure.

    Regardless, purchasing power considering net income is still much higher in the States. It’s not even a close comparison. I’ve lived in both places, and there’s a huge difference in salaries, taxes and consumer prices. We’re still piss-poor in comparison.

    Any relative gains Finland has made are a testament to the Finnish people. They’re not a testament to Finland’s economic system. The fact that I have to pay for two-cars, just to own one: THAT is a testament to Finland’s economic system.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    As for the 70-80’s Finland, it is quite clear that Finland enjoyed an incredible freeride courtesy of the Soviet Union…

    It was a great freeride. Nobody starved in Finland during that time. In 1985, IIRC, GNP was about 20K per capita. Jeans cost about 80-dollars (US) here. Cars…..well, if you had skills to build your own, then you were ahead of the game.

    I think it’s our relationship with the CCCP that gave us our welfare state mentality. Russia provided income, and we just needed to figure-out how to divide it among everyone.

    Of course, most of our income came from western markets, but nonetheless, getting a big welfare payment from Big Brother affected our way of thinking about economics—and not for the better.

    And then there was marxist Sweden’s influence…..

  • winter

    This Muslim lady has balls of steel
    Undoubtedly and very unfortunately there are quite likely numerous fatwas calling for her death now.

    link:no jew ever blew himself up in a German restaurant

  • winter

    Lets ask an Iraqe his openion

    from Iraq the model

    “Did the “invasion and its aftermath” destabilize the region from those leaders’ perspective?
    Absolutely yes! The Syrian Baath regime lost its eastern twin, Iran lost its anti-American, anti-Semitic western neighbor and the family-state in Saudi Arabia suddenly found itslef with a northern neighbor where minorities and majorities both have shares in governance.
    Moreover, the peoples of the region, since then, became more daring in demanding their rights and criticizing the policy of their governments.

    If this is not instability, then what is it?

  • issi

    Billionairs? Effective workers? In same sentence?
    Ha, I guess most millionairs (even FMk- ) in Finland nowadays has done nothing for the money that has fallen to their hands. And many of them who has, should be in jail for what they did.
    Rich family, misconducts, luck, honest work. Would that be the right order for lining up the rich ones in Finland?

    Btw, you wise coputer guys/gals, why haven’t you invented a working troll-filter yet?

  • tomia

    The proper growth rate comparison is that between the US and the EU

    Oh, now you became “eupundit” all of a sudden.

    And what’s this talk about freeriding? When two free parties engage in trade they do it because they both benefit – or think that they do. There’s no room for freeriding.

    When the Soviets wanted to exchange oil for Nokia’s rubber boots, they did it because they had a lot of oil and few decent rubber boots. Or whatever it was they thought was beneficial for them. If an American consumer buys Nokian’s rubber boots that’s because she values them higher than the amount of money they cost. Nokian, the firm, on the other hand values the dollars higher than the boots. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, if a Texan buys Minnesotan rubber boots.

    Amazingly enough, there seems to be still, after 150 years, Finns who don’t understand the basic principles of the free markets.

    Perhaps you are talking about the welfare loss? But that doesn’t make sense either. If there really is any objective “welfare loss” outside economists’ ivory towers, that loss affects the Finnish tax payers, not any trading partners. Besides, in absolute terms the Finns don’t pay that much more taxes than the Americans do. Actually they pay about the same if health-care costs are included, as they should be because they are deductible expenses.

    Here’s an example of true freeriding: Predictable climate is a good thing. Producing predictable climate costs, because decreasing greenhouse-gas emissions costs. If somebody paid less than his fair share of producing predictable climate, he’d be freeriding.

    Now, about each and everyone of us is freeriding in this case, but the heroic American worker/consumer is doing it much more than his European counterpart – or anybody else actually. I’d suggest that you start using the term American worker/consumer/freerider. What do you say?

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Actually they pay about the same if health-care costs are included, as they should be because they are deductible expenses.

    Actually, that’s not really true. I don’t have a pay stub handy, but I’m willing to bet that health-care costs are irrelevant in the comparison as most employers will provide health insurance to the employee alone free of charge or for a small charge and a bit additional for a family plan…maybe something like $130 per month. In addition the Feds take ~1% for Medicare/Medicaid, the public sector healthcare. I think I pay more than 1k euro per month to the pension/kela/whatever it’s called alone.

    I used to think that the taxation was about the same as here but when you make a six figure salary in one country with Fed and FICA/SS being ~22% along with state around 12% not to mention FICA/SS stopping around the $80k mark, it’s a lot lower in the US. I’m not really sure as to why I used to think the taxation seemed to be equal…perhaps it is because the money is more easily spent in the US with more things to buy. One thing is certain though…I got paid a lot better, took home a lot more money, had better health care and enjoyed a lot more things that are considered luxuries here if you can even find them.

  • tomia

    nonetheless, getting a big welfare payment from Big Brother affected our way of thinking about economics—and not for the better.

    In the real life the Finnish government tried to make sure that the trade didn’t increase above 15% or so, hmmm, something like 6% of the GDP. At the same time pretty much everybody was fighting desperately to ensure more trade with the West – tarif-free trade in particular. Both goals were achieved pretty well.

  • N. Siinistö

    “Swedish unions are spending more on campaigns per capita than George Bush..”

    This is an example of the woodoo statistics we see a lot of these days. Comparing spending per capita isn’t really relevant since it will always be a lot more expensive in a country like Sweden with the much smaller target audience (10 million people vs 300 million people).

  • tomia

    hfb, there are statistics where you’ll find the factual numbers regarding respective tax burdens and health-care costs. No need to refer to personal anecdotes.

    And yes, in dollars an average American pays about 14-15 000 dollars per year in taxes and health care combined (and no, employers don’t pay for the health care, although it may seem so). That’s roughly the sum an average Finn pays in taxes. Without the health-care costs the respective sums would be somewhere around 10 000$ and 15 000$ OK, I didn’t bother to check the numbers but I’m pretty sure they are not far off. If they are, I’ll be glad to stand corrected.

    And yes, the American health-care system is a catastrophe by most standards, moneywise in particular.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “Our taxes hurt lower-income people the most. They’re forced to pay high prices, due to our constrained and underdeveloped domestic economy.”

    Well you have the VAT which is a regressive tax, punishing those who earn the least the most.

    My brother-in-law has his own business in Finland making custom furniture for “Finnish millionaires.” He admits that his business exists solely because there are some rich people in Finland, because noone elase can afford to pay for the amount of time it takes to make custom furniture.

    This has caused a problem back home where in general the group think was that the rich need to be taxed more. Now there is a dissenting voice (in addition to my own) as it is the spending of the rich that enable many small businesses to exist, and by default many jobs.

    A couple years back the US had a enacted a “luxury tax” for items such as cars and boats that cost over a certain amount. That tax managed to nearly kill off the entire US boat industry. Once it was clear the damage that was being done, the law was repealed.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    tomia – why should I resort to statistics when I have personal experience? Yes, employers do pay for the health care, some are more generous than others in the plans and benefits they offer. Still, the cost to the average employee is very low. Since you are so knowledgeable about the US health care system, then you probably already know what COBRA is and just how expensive that can be and just how much the employer does pay.

    And, yes, there are problems in the US system, but the only difference between here and there that really makes for relevant comparison is that there is a safety net here for those who have nothing whereas in the US, there is more of a difference between the public and private sector. I’m moving back to the US at 8 months preg…I’m pretty familiar with the available options at this point. I’m looking forward to a world class maternity hospital and losing the nightmares of popping on a the hospital’s pikkujoulu with only a Russian nurse on duty to hold my hand. :)

  • Oregon

    Let me give a real example of employer costs in the US construction industry (Pacific Northwest): salary (including time off) $40k, insurances & healthcare $10k, retirement benefits $9k. The share of healthcare has more than doubled during the last 10 years. An “identical” employee in Finland (same skills): salary $40k, employer costs $11k.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “I’m looking forward to a world class maternity hospital and losing the nightmares of popping on a the hospital’s pikkujoulu with only a Russian nurse on duty to hold my hand.”

    I think if you have a job that provides health insurance in the US, your care will be as good and most likely better than in Finland. Plus, you do not need to plan out your care months in advance. The mere fact that there is still private insurance in Finland is indicative of the failings of the system.

    My wife has compared stories of her friends birthing experiences in Finnish hospitals to her experience in a US hospital. The difference in the standard level of care is huge! (And this was early Sunday morning just after a severe snowstorm.)

    Sure, you pay more in the US, but then again, you can pay upon receipt of an invoice, or you can have someone’s hand in your pockets all the time, helping themselves.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Without the health-care costs the respective sums would be somewhere around 10 000$ and 15 000$ (for Finnish taxes)

    Here’s a calculation. I did it quickly, so please correct me if I’m wrong. It’s based on 45K/year—not an extremely high salary, but probably OK for Finland. Also, I think it’s the average wage in the US. The tax, was as follows (health insurance is included in both calculations):

    Finland
    45.000 (gross income)
    6.800 (federal tax)
    8.100 (municipal tax @ 18%)
    30.100 (net income)

    America
    45.000 (gross income)
    5.700 (federal tax based on single person, no special deductions)
    2.250 (state tax @ 5%)
    37.050 (net income)

    A difference of roughly 7.000/year. Other things to consider:

    +++ A 45K job in Finland is worth 53K in the US—equivalent job, adjusted for vacation (2wks).
    +++ Expenditures for consumer goods, including food, are about 30% lower in the US.
    +++ VAT tax in Finland is 22%; in US it’s about 5%.

    Why such an enormous difference?

    Considering the difference in wages and taxes… In Finland, between 7K and 14K/year/person gets taken out of production and channeled through the government. This creates a big inefficiency.

    I’ll stick to my assertion that Finland’s system is a ripoff.

    My sources:
    Only includes federal tax…
    http://www.worldwide-tax.com/finland/finland_tax.asp

    Only includes federal tax…
    http://www.irs.gov/individuals/page/0,,id=14806,00.html

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Fred – The public ultrasound missed a fibroid the size of a small orange….not a confidence builder, no. The private one was done by a doctor who noticed it immediately and worth every penny to know what the pain I was experiencing was from. I mentioned this to a friend who thought that it sounded a lot like what his pregnant wife has been experiencing, too. I’m a bit happier knowing I’ll be in a place where I won’t have to ‘sign up’ for an english speaking delivery staff 4 months in advance (I have no idea how that was supposed to work given babies arrive at their own time) and have some of the best medical staff money can buy. I’m still in awe that over the summer there were 2 months where I didn’t have any pre-natal appointments due to the holidays and that if I had problems, there’s only 1-hour you can call and the line seems to be always busy.

    But, yes, if you have a decent job, chances are you have at least some form of private health care in the US. Those who don’t have some sort of gov/public coverage or, for various reasons, no coverage at all, e.g. illegals, students with an misplaced sense of immortality (I used to be one of those), et. al.

    Kristian – There’s no VAT in the US, but the sales tax varies from state to state and two states, eg NH, have no sales tax at all. :)

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    I know, I used the “vat” terminology in place of “sales tax.” Same thing though.

    By the way, in most US states, “sales tax” isn’t charged on food and medicines. Conversely, in Finland, it’s charged at a reduced rate of either 8% or 17% IIRC. Still way higher than America’s.

    Again, I’ll maintain my assertion that Finland’s system is a ripoff.

  • AmeriikanEnkeli

    Hfb,

    I’ve no doubt that Finland has great doctors. My cousin is one. The problem is access. And there are even more subtle differences. In the US, doctors tend to have better bedside manner; they tell you what they’re about to do before they do it, and if you have to undress, staff leaves the room until you’re done. I don’t even want to tell you about my dental experiences in Finland!

    I love Finland, but I’m very grateful for the medical care I receive here in the US.

  • tim73

    “Congested highways, overflowing sewers and corroding bridges are constant reminders of the looming crisis that jeopardizes our nation’s prosperity and our quality of life……our nation’s infrastructure has shown little to no improvement since receiving a collective D+ in 2001, with some areas sliding toward failing grades. The American Society of Civil Engineers’ 2005 Report Card for America’s Infrastructure assessed the same 12 infrastructure categories as in 2001, and added three new categories.”

    C = Mediocre, D = Poor, I = Incomplete
    Aviation: D+
    Bridges: C
    Dams: D
    Drinking water: D-
    Energy: D
    Hazardous waste: D
    Navigable waterways: D-
    Public parks % Recreation: C-
    Rail: C-
    Roads: D
    Schools: D
    Security: I
    Solid waste: C+
    Transit: D+
    Wastewater: D-

    “In 2001, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) released a national survey of drinking water infrastructure needs. The survey results concluded that approximately $151 billion would be needed over 20 years to repair, replace, and upgrade the nation’s 55,000 community drinking water systems to protect public health.”

    Wow, what a “superpower”…. :)

    Source:
    http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm?pic=2

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    tim73—

    No doubt about it: America is falling apart. But that’s due to its involvement in a losing war.

    Imagine if those many hundreds-of-billions of dollars had been spent on infrastructure improvements instead of transfer payments to the military and related industries.

    The fact still remains: America’s low-tax-rate economy is a huge tax-revenue-producing machine. America just spends it unwisely.

  • Oregon

    Kristian, I would fire you right away if you were my accountant.

    First, you forgot the US social security tax. Employees pay 7.65% while the employer share is also 7.65%, but if you are a contractor, you pay the whole 15.30%. The employee net is around $33,700. You also forgot the employee healthcare contribution.

    Second, you forgot the Finnish social security tax, and compulsory employee insurances. In total all the employee payments are $11,819 (exchange rate 1.2301), so the net is $33,181 (this is from our payroll program).

    These kinds of comparisons do not reveal the whole truth, as that is a complicated one. In the US the local property taxes can be high, in Finland gasoline and cars are heavily taxed. And in Finland education is free, while in the US it is not; I served in the marines to get the tuition assistance; there is no need to tell where that would send you today.

    VAT is a great invention as you pay only for the added value! In the US many states impose compounding turnover taxes that harm small businesses. The sales tax is only the last one in the chain.

  • tomia

    I did it quickly, so please correct me if I’m wrong.

    By taking an arbitraty yearly income as a starting point won’t lead to an average result (unless the income happens to be the average income, which it wasn’t). Of course you can do it the way you did. But then again I could take an example from the lower end of the income bracket, and then the results would be very embarrasing indeed.

    To do it the “right way” you need the GDPs per capita in dollars, the total tax rate, and – for the USA – the percetage spent on health care. Then you just divide, add and what not. I’m sure. you’ll get the picture.

    That way you’ll end up with figures that are still somewhat inaccurate, but hey, if you want to do a fool-proof study go ahead. ;-)

    I’m still pretty convinced that I’m more right than you are.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Kristian, I would fire you right away if you were my accountant.

    Good. I don’t want to be an accountant ;)

    First, you forgot the US social security tax. Employees pay 7.65% while the employer share is also 7.65%, but if you are a contractor, you pay the whole 15.30%. The employee net is around $33,700. You also forgot the employee healthcare contribution.

    No, I believe this is all included in my federal tax amount for the US in post #46. I used the IRS’ calculator to get it. Maybe I should have explained it better than just stating that it’s federal tax —it should be for everything, including what you listed. Check the IRS link I posted.

    A self-employed contractor does pay the whole amount though. My numbers are based on an employee, not a contractor.

    I agree with your point about education. I have no problem with Finland’s ‘free’ education as such. But like I stated in post #51, the difference is that America chose to spend hundreds-of-billions of dollars on a war instead of education, infrastructure etc.

    By the way, I don’t think America’s property taxes even compare with Finland’s car tax. Besides, a poor person in Finland—one who doesn’t own property—pays the same tax.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Oregon – Prop taxes are generally pretty low unless you own a giant house which, if you’re pulling only that kind of wage, you probably don’t. Also, the property tax and interest from the home loan are tax deductible. The ‘free’ education bit, too…only works if you manage to get into university and into a program you like. Free doesn’t do you much good if you want to be a chemist, but don’t get a place so are left with a choice of something you don’t want to do or being a waiter. And, don’t forget the employee, if married, filing jointly with a tax deduction a.k.a. dependent child, gets quite a few more tax breaks. As far as I know, those are not available to the Finnish tax payer. The cost of living here is also quite high. The 22% VAT is great invention?

    AmeriikanEnkeli – Indeed. Even the vet has to be interrogated to get him to tell me what’s wrong, what’s with the medicine, etc. When you prescribe a giant dog a medicine that is a diuretic, it’s important to let the owners know that since the dog has the bladder capacity of a small lake. Finding this out the hard way is not fun. I swear, that vet is going to miss my wallet.

    Kristian – ‘falling apart’ is a bit dramatic, especially when most of those issues cited are paid for by local or state taxes, not federal funds which are going to the war. Reducing the federal tax in favour of more state and local taxes would improve many things but bureaucracy is very efficient at wasting money, here and everywhere else.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    About the comments about paying for education in the US. In the US, 90+% of the education costs are handled at the state and local level. That is what State and property taxes are for. So the Federal Government spending money for a war has no effect on education spending. Each year local residents vote on their school district’s annual budget. There is lots of interest as it can effect their property taxes.

    And education in Finland is not totally free. I understand you have to buy your textbook once you get to lukio. How much is that? So in that way US education is cheaper than in Finland. It is only college education that’s free in Finland and that’s only for some. In the US, anyone can go, but they need to pay.

    “VAT is a great invention as you pay only for the added value! In the US many states impose compounding turnover taxes that harm small businesses. The sales tax is only the last one in the chain.”

    You going to have to explain that one to me. (You can exclude the idiotic situation of car tax when you do.) The tax has nothing to do with value, it is the ‘state’ demanding 22% of the total revenue you generate for a business. Those are mafia-rate numbers.

    If the tax was based on the added value, then it would apply to only the calulated “added value”, not on the price for the whole item. As it is, business must reduce their price (and profit) due to the state tacking on such a high tax. That is why tax-free products are not 22% less as the seller is trying to reap a better profit.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    By taking an arbitraty yearly income as a starting point won’t lead to an average result (unless the income happens to be the average income, which it wasn’t). [...]To do it the “right way” you need the GDPs per capita in dollars…

    Nope. Too many variables. Perhaps if we imported about 1/2-million additional Somalians to Finland (directly from Somalia) then Finland’s demographics and productivity distributions would approach those of the US. Only then would your “right way” of economic analysis begin to have meaning.

    That’s why, instead, I chose to use comparable jobs with comparable salaries. Let’s change the terms of my original post a bit, to suit your needs… Figure that a 53K (US dollars) job in the US is worth roughly 45K (Euros) in Finland, based on exchange rates. My tax calculations still hold true.

    percetage spent on (US) health care.

    Employer pays in US; that’s why it wasn’t in my calculation.

    I’m still pretty convinced that I’m more right than you are

    I wish you were right….and actually, I hope you can prove me wrong. I’m still open to the possibility that my tax calculations are wrong—in particular, the US calcs.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    In the US, 90+% of the education costs are handled at the state and local level. That is what State and property taxes are for. So the Federal Government spending money for a war has no effect on education spending.

    Universities/trade schools in the US are for-pay. Otherwise, I believe the federal government would be responsible. America chose to spend on war instead of university/trade school education.

    Either way, whether taxes are payed through the federal, the state or local authorities, it affects your overall tax burden.

  • tomia

    why should I resort to statistics when I have personal experience?

    Well, in oder to get a impartial picture, silly you. ;-)

    If we were to trust you, quite a few Finnish infants would die, or their mothers. But that’s not the case according to the statistics. Finland is one of the safest places to have children in the whole world. And much safer than the USA, of course. The health-care system you’ve got there is, after all, working very badly. I mean, find me one honest expert who thinks that the system over there works well, better than in Finland for example.

    But hey, a few personal anecdotes can spice up any story. I’ve got two kids myself, and I have participated the right way in both cases I’ve been there all through the “process”. Or not exactly. The second one was difficult. After the child was born they quickly drove me out. Later on I heard that they had made some pretty drastic operations to stop internal bleeding. I cried when I saw my wife the first time afterwards, twelve hours or so later. So weak was she.

    I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t a Russian nurse who did those operations – but what do I know. Because I’m not a racist, a Russian nurse is OK. Heck, she may be a doctor who dosen’t have made the exams in Finland yet.

    But I’m not claiming that the Finnish system is perfect because my personal experiences could lead me to believe so. It’s just one of the best – according to the statistics.

  • Oregon

    Fred, many firms collect and pass through fees for services provided by others. The GRT penalizes for collecting rather than earning income. Say, an engineering firm charges clients a total of $1,000,000 in fees, and already at a low 0.5% GRT rate it is taxed $5,000. Now the company passes through around $500,000 in fees to specialty consultants. These pass through fees would then be taxed another $2,500 at the consultant level, and so forth, double, triple, and quadruple taxation. As a result, GRT is a big problem for small engineering firms that are in direct competition with large companies. Instad, VAT is a pass through tax.

  • sppuuddy

    #34 winter very good video and very brave woman,she made some very good points and won the debate hands down dont think she will get invited back there for a while…… kinda like this guy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

  • winter

    sppuudy

    Did you miss #23

    time to enlist in the NAVY.

    kinda funny, but you have to know that the US Navy has Females on ships at sea.

    The first batch we got were the 2 bag type. Now they are getting thin, and pretty. No more hookers for shore leave.

    I think each Sailor is now issued a girl in boot camp. Move love than training going on there.

  • Anonymous

    “and there certainly isn’t much incentive to educate yourself”

    Most people I know educate themselves because they want to educate and develope themselves, not because they’re after a high paying job. If you really educate yourself because of money, and don’t bother to do so if it doesn’t mean higher income, I really feel sorry for you.

  • Anonymous

    “It’s disgusting how the Social Democrats and other commies have made people so dependent on the state’s welfare machine. Stupid ignorant idiots ruin the whole system (which is actually a good thing!) by voting for the wrong people just because they get free money! How stupid can people get?”

    After reading your pages, it’s obvious that the stupid ignorant uneducated hick is you, dear Sand.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    I think each Sailor is now issued a girl in boot camp. Move love than training going on there.

    winter,

    Since when did sailors need girls for love?

  • winter

    Carefull

    “Since when did sailors need girls for love?”

    Antti (the redneck one) may be around.

  • dhen

    Winter:

    I visited a Marine base a few months ago in Africa. They had Navy guys there, too. There was about a 15-1 guy to woman ratio, so I’d say that joining the Navy would be a sword fight.

    Funny song, but Navy guys go to Iraq, too.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    I won’t be joining winter’s navy. I like women for sure, but not in the military.

  • winter

    “women for sure, but not in the military.”

    We have them flying F18′s, but they get to land back on the boat. They are getting cuter. Thanks Navy recruiters!!!!!

    If you look at some videos of Iraq, there is one where a convoy is attacked, its filmed by the bad guys. two Humv’s show up, with all women. They execute a perfect cut the bad guys off maneuver, killing the camerman and his buddies. His video is on the Internet.

    They are deadly when provoked.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/ Fred Fry

    Finland is #1:

    http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/images/78251562.gif

    In Taxes as a % of GDP.

  • tomia

    Finland is #1 in Taxes as a % of GDP.

    Sorry, fourth.

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2005-06/bp1/image/bst5-11.gif

    VAT = Value Added Tax (sales tax)

    By the way, VAT hits hardest the poor because it’s not progressive. From now on I want you all to call Finland “this shitty country that punishes the poor and rewards the rich”.

  • Boyle

    # 70

    How do you make VAT progressive may I ask?

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Tomia – I don’t know that not dying is really a recommendation to a health care system. And the comment about the Russian nurse was a bang on the possibility that the regular staff would be out drinking at their pikkujoulu.

    And, yes, I’ve often heard people extol how safe it is here and the ‘free’ education and all. But nobody ever said you could ensure the good life by wrapping them in a box and sheltering them from everything.

    Kristian – No, the Feds pay very little for education. Primary and secondary schools are funded almost entirely at the prop tax/local and state level. Universities are either private or state operated and funded. The feds sometimes offer money in the form of research grants, scholarships, and loan programs but, on the whole, no, the feds are not responsible for the vast majority of education spending in the US.

  • tomia

    How do you make VAT progressive may I ask?

    Well, I think I could do that in theory, but why should I? If I wanted to see more progression I just lowered the VAT and increased the income taxes, I guess. But that would decrease the incentive to become more wealthy. And that’s something we don’t want, do we.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    #53

    But then again I could take an example from the lower end of the income bracket, and then the results would be very embarrasing indeed.

    Ok, here’s an example based on 30K Euros/year.

    Finland
    30.000 (gross income)
    3.000 (federal tax)
    5.400 (municipal tax @ 18%)
    21.600 (net income)

    America
    30.000 (gross income)
    2.900 (federal tax based on single person, no special deductions)
    1.500 (state tax @ 5%)
    25.600 (net income)

    A difference of roughly 4.000/year—money that low-wage earners in Finland could probably use. But, the government takes it instead. And as compensation for their generosity to the government, they still get to pay the same ripoff consumer prices as higher-paid Finnish workers—prices that were caused by the constraining effect of high taxation in the first place.

    The only consolation is that, at this wage level, Finnish employees at least have unions to hold their salaries higher than their American counterparts, so, aside from the tax calculation, it might not be a fair comparison. Difficult to say for sure.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Hey winter—Have you reached the 10K mark yet in Iraq…that is, for number of amputees? :lol:

  • tomia

    hfb, your comments tend to be very confusing … let’s see:

    I don’t know that not dying is really a recommendation to a health care system.

    Who has died?

    And the comment about the Russian nurse was a bang on the possibility that the regular staff would be out drinking at their pikkujoulu.

    So according to you the staff can’t be trusted. They may abandon their duties in order to get drunk, the drunks they must be because they are Finns. For heaven’s sake, I really hope you don’t tell these kinds of stories to your Finnish friends, if you have any. Tell me this: how come these untrustworthy drunks have managed to create this system that “produces” more healthy mothers and children than about any other system in the world – and naturally much more than in the USA?

    But nobody ever said you could ensure the good life by wrapping them in a box and sheltering them from everything.

    Is Finland this little shit hole where nobody can feel safe – hell, your nurse can all of a sudden get drunk and start waving a knife on you face – or a box that shelters from everything? Perhaps you should make up your mind …

    I discussed you with two mothers, my wife included, last night, worth five children. I even read some of the best parts. Now, I’d like to be considered a gentleman, toward pregnant women in particular, so I won’t tell you what they had to say. Let’s just say that, hmmm, they didn’t agree with you wholeheartedly ;-)

  • tomia

    A difference of roughly 4.000/year—money that low-wage earners in Finland could probably use.

    And that is close to what an average American pays for his health care, I think. Not to mention other costs, like higher education.

    But what I really meant was the “working poor” who are not poor enough to get Medicaid, but have to take jobs that don’t cover their medical expenses or cover them poorly.

    If the USA just could get its act together regarding the health care, why, we could actually think that there is something the country could teach us. I mean, it’s perhaps the one biggest issue why Finns find the values over there foreign. (Death penalty being the second?)

    Minnesota could be a place to investigate. Don’t they have a universal health care combined with a healthy “American” kind of an economy?

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    #78

    But what I really meant was the “working poor” who are not poor enough to get Medicaid, but have to take jobs that don’t cover their medical expenses or cover them poorly.

    Yeah, that’s where the American system falls flat. No doubt it’s a gaping hole. Same condition exists for education too; a person can be too rich to get assistance, yet too poor to afford tuition.

    I don’t think those holes needs to be there, but, as far as I can see, these result from two things:

    1). Priorities—A disproportionate amount is spent on military spending and wars; those huge transfer payments could be spent domestically. Instead, they only benefit a narrow segment of industry. I suppose priorities are also the result of cultural differences; The American population can always justify to themselves the cause of ‘fighting’, and everything else comes second…..at any expense. It’s also a condition that exists internal to society—lots of infighting.

    2). Inefficiencies—I don’t think America can run public programs efficiently. It’s too culturally diverse and inexperienced. Even a government-sponsored, yet privatized, system would have problems once corporate interests start profiteering with assistance from the political process. I think America’s privatized healthcare system already suffers from this. There are lots of extremely wealthy executives though :-/ I’d hate to see what a public system would look like in the States.

    I wouldn’t wish either of these things on us here in Finland or Europe. I see no reason for why we can’t have America’s economy, services that help all income levels equally—-but without America’s oil-wars and potential inefficiencies, of course.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    By the way, I wouldn’t sell eastern European doctors short. I have some experience with them, and I find they’re usually every bit as knowledgable as their western counterparts. In fact, I recently went to a Ukranian doc here in Finland. It was for nothing serious; however, the condition was somewhat obscure—even esoteric—compared to normally encountered medical problems.

    Beforehand, I researched and partially memorized the diagnosis and solution heuristic and then ‘quized’ him on it. I couldn’t believe how well he knew it.

    It’s only one case, but I’ve had similar experiences in other countries. I always try to see how much they know. And I’m rarely disappointed.

    I can see how communication would be a problem for Americans abroad though. Here in Finland, speaking english with a Russian nurse might be difficult; especially if she’s spent the last 10-years attempting to master Finnish. In my case, the Ukranian doc found speaking Finnish cumbersome, so we switched between Finnish and English—and some German too :)

  • m

    “I’m a bit happier knowing I’ll be in a place where I won’t have to ’sign up’ for an english speaking delivery staff 4 months in advance”

    This is Finland, not England. The whole world doesn’t revolve around you you know?

  • tomia

    78.

    http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182
    But it’s not like the money that is spent on the war would be spent on the poor.

    I’d hate to see what a public system would look like in the States.

    If you mean health insurances, it would be better. Private insurances just don’t work in health care. Why? Because there is this “asymmetry of knowledge” between those who sell and those who buy. Among other things.

    But the Finnish system is far from perfect, too. Why not try something they have in Singapore?

    http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?page=article&Article_ID=7923

    But, hey, here is the final list of institutions that have American values attached to them but are foreign to us: health care, education, “defense”, justice system (death penalty etc) … and what else? … perhaps religion.

    But that’s anti-Americanism, I guess.

  • Antti (the redneck one)

    “Since when did sailors need girls for love?”

    Well, I was conscripted to FAF, when the women were first time allowed in service. I’m not sure, whether the first ones are already flying F/A-18′s, but they are at least approaching that point.

    It was quite a sitcom in the beginning. For some time the regular officers were somewhere in between, whether to take the officer or gentleman routine and for the conscripts there was this “boobie channel” with 100 inch screen at the second floor of the 1st company barracks. Later the girls noticed they have a couple seconds to close the curtains before the corporal or Zorbas started yelling orders. He made sure we had an intensive course of great outdoors in army style during the rookie time, before assuming the motto: “All blue doesn’t necessarily fly, but all grey certainly crawls.”

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    #82

    I’m not entirely convinced that our healthcare system is so horrible. Although I’m not an expert, I believe the public/private hybrid approach might be beneficial. We just need to generate more revenue to fund both—especially the public level, since it’s most vulnerable.

    Consider that, in the US, they don’t really have pure competition in the healthcare marketplace. Pure competition would drive costs downward. And it doesn’t appear that medical care is cheap in the US.

    So, it would seem that drug companies, insurance companies, etc. are able to influence the passing of laws which enable them to profit extraordinarily from consumers. For example, just look at how Americans rush to the Canadian border for cheaper prescriptions.

    In a hybrid system, having a public segment might help to counterbalance the private segment, politically speaking. In return, the private segment might also influence the public segment to become more efficient—although I firmly believe regulations should be kept in-effect to maintain high standards.

    I’m only speculating about this counterbalancing effect though; it might also depend on laws governing political influence. For example, it might be worth looking at why drugs are cheaper in Canada—maybe it’s due to lesser influence-susceptibility in contrast to America’s political system?

  • JJuba

    Something to write bout, Phil.. :-) http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/15/bush-powell/

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/ Fred Fry

    “A disproportionate amount is spent on military spending and wars; those huge transfer payments could be spent domestically.”

    Well there is a balance somewhere. Europe spends way too little on their own defence. The EU countries have more population and soldiers yet they can’t even scrape up a 1,000 troops needed in Afghanistan, and that war even has a NATO and UN stamp of approval, which was SO IMPORTANT when it came to Iraq. Even if they did pony up the troops, they would still have to hitch a ride to get there. (Just like each state is a little different, so are the states of the European Union, with the UK doing more than their share in both Iraq and Afghanistan.)

    It’s funny that the US spends so much in it’s military, yet you almost never see any sign of a military in the US. Then in Europe, they are everywhere. I don’t find it comforting at all to arrive in a country where there are soldiers walking around with assault weapons and armored cars outside (Greece.)

  • winter

    “The EU countries have more population and soldiers yet they can’t even scrape up a 1,000 troops needed in Afghanistan”

    same for Kosovo, you had to call in the Evil USA

    same for Lebanon, we are watching a slow motion, crawl deployment there.

    But I think the news is not the ultra slow deployments, but the unclear, don’t shoot, don’t do anything where you get there orders. Thats a political issue, the French have forced upon you with their white flag of surrender.

    Surrender sure worked :”Al-Qaida Joins Algerians Against France” Can you all explain that one?

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    #86
    Well there is a balance somewhere. Europe spends way too little on their own defence.

    Defense against whom?

    I’m hoping we’ll scale-back our militaries even more. I don’t mind having some domestic emergency forces to handle natural disasters—in Finland’s case, clearing dead dear from our roads or snow plowing after big storms and such—but, I don’t see much reason for having invasion capabilities.

    Any chance we can return those F18′s for a restocking charge?

    The EU countries have more population and soldiers yet they can’t even scrape up a 1,000 troops needed in Afghanistan

    I know, but given that any decisions our governments made were against our wishes anyway, I don’t feel guilty about it.

    I was in Germany during that time, and I did something I’d never done before: I actually went into the streets and protested, with hopes of diverting G. Schroeder’s plans of involvement in Afghanistan.

    I like to think we had some effect, but, in hindsight, the millions-of-us probably weren’t loud enough.

    UK doing more than their share in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    They have British Petroleum and, I believe, a majority-ownership in Royal Dutch Shell. Remember, about 90% of England’s population was against any involvement. That number hasn’t changed much.

    I don’t find it comforting at all to arrive in a country where there are soldiers walking around with assault weapons and armored cars outside (Greece).

    Oh, is Greece part of Europe too? :lol:

    Actually, we don’t see many signs of military in northern and central Europe. I’ve never been to Greece.

  • winter

    Defense against whom?

    Kristian wants to surrender. Surrender sure worked :”Al-Qaida Joins Algerians Against France”

    Can you all explain that one?

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Actually, I’m thinking we should have a recording. For example, if Al-Quaida attacks, the recording will state:

    “We are in sauna, and we surrender. Please call back later.”

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    #90

    *Al-Qaeda

    Geez, my spelling is starting to look like yours, winter :lol:

  • Kevin

    When I was studying at university I was working extra as a taxi driver in Stockholm and what struck me when I was talking about politics to customers (especially old people and working class people)was how little Swedes actually knew about politics.

    Even though people in general found the Social democratic government somewhat corrupted and incompetent the general opinion among the party’s supporters seemed to that the right-wing parties were going to make Sweden a living hell for everyone that doesn’t own a Rolls Royce, clearly a result from a systematic brainwash from organisations like LO. The social democrats seemed to be a symbol for safety and stability. The right-wing got the blame for the economic collapse in the 1990′s even though most economists agree that it was a result of the social democrats politics in the 1980′s.

    Even I sympathized for the social democrats of ideological reasons until I learned more Swedish politics and what the parties actually wanted and did.

    As you write in your blog, as good as all the major companies in Sweden like Ericsson and Volvo are a result of the entrepreneur-friendly Swedish society when the spcial democrats were for once in the opposition.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/ Fred Fry

    “I know, but given that any decisions our governments made were against our wishes anyway, I don’t feel guilty about it.

    I was in Germany during that time, and I did something I’d never done before: I actually went into the streets and protested, with hopes of diverting G. Schroeder’s plans of involvement in Afghanistan.”

    And what would Afghanistan be like today if the Us was prevented from putting the terror camps out of business? Did you expect all of them to just sit around and not use their training?

    And just what was your solution for dealing with Afghanistan? Well don’t worry, from the report’s that I have seen, Germany is not exactly ‘involved’ in Afghanistan.

    Defense against whom?

    Give it a little time. We are all going to find out soon enough that the new Russia is is very much like the old Russia. And just why did they recently increase the exclusion zone at the border to 25 KM?

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    So according to you the staff can’t be trusted. They may abandon their duties in order to get drunk, the drunks they must be because they are Finns. For heaven’s sake, I really hope you don’t tell these kinds of stories to your Finnish friends, if you have any. Tell me this: how come these untrustworthy drunks have managed to create this system that “produces” more healthy mothers and children than about any other system in the world – and naturally much more than in the USA?

    Tomia – If they’ll leave me for two months to take their summer holiday, why should I expect that I would get full attention in the middle of the night in the pikkujoulu season? And when they missed a rather large mass twice that has potential to cause complications in delivery, no, I’m not full of confidence. Colleagues at work all have some dire story to tell, even my boss who lost her first child. Sure, I may not die, but again, that’s not really what I’d like to think I’m paying 1000+ euro per month for.

    And you can be sure that I will mostly just not speak of Finland once home.

    I discussed you with two mothers, my wife included, last night, worth five children. I even read some of the best parts. Now, I’d like to be considered a gentleman, toward pregnant women in particular, so I won’t tell you what they had to say. Let’s just say that, hmmm, they didn’t agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Why would I expect Finland to develop any sort of grace or manners just because I’m leaving? You’ll always be Finland, ready to whip out the stats for all to see and attack anyone who suggests otherwise that you’re the best at everything all while nothing changes and nobody cares.

    m – “This is Finland, not England. The whole world doesn’t revolve around you you know?

    M, you’re an ass, as you stripped the comment that explained that I wondered how, exactly this works since ONE DOESN’T CHOOSE THE DATE AND TIME OF BIRTH. Sure, I could sign up…but what the fuck good would it do.

  • Antti (the redneck one)

    Social democracy has achieved many good things over the years, but having them in power for almost 70 years or something is right out of Kekkoslovakia. I have understood that the swedish political debate is more active than finnish and certainly not anywhere close to kekkoslovakian consensus liturgy, but is that some hyperactive minority doing the debate also for the zombies voting always the same party, no matter how bad they screw up. Even in Sweden they should recycle the politicians every now and then, just because the scheisse tends to accumulates.

    On 88#, my message to Al-Qaida would be: “We are in sauna. Cut the crap, have a beer and join in or if not possible, do as we do, stay where you come from and mind your own business.”

    And finally on child birth. No, they don’t ask mothers giving birth to keep their legs crossed over the summer months or tell somebody with a heart attack to grab spark plug wire and start the car. That one Russian nurse on nightshift can unfortunately be true at some units for the old people though.

    We also lost our first one. It was summer allright, but it had nothing to do with the incident. We got all the care at the maternity ward and the neonatal intensive care unit. Sometimes it just isn’t enough. In this case, the death was also probably the most merciful outcome.

  • m

    hfb: I dont see how that changes the meaning of the sentence. You want English speaking delivery staff. Most docs should speak english if they survived med school anyway.

  • m

    Dunno about the midwifes though.

  • sppuuddy

    hfb: I read your comment and also thought you were annoyed with the fact that you had to apply 4 months ahead of time to have an english speaking staff at the birth.
    Also you are saying this cannot work because no one knows when a baby arrives… i think you have not asked the hospital how they employ this system, because if you knew anything about it im sure you would have commented on the flaws in that system.
    And lastly how far ahead in the states or England do you have to apply for a Finnish speaking staff at a birth and how does that system work better than the Finnish one?

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    And what would Afghanistan be like today if the Us was prevented from putting the terror camps out of business? [...] And just what was your solution for dealing with Afghanistan?

    My solution: Determine how our respective governments’ foreign policies—which are normally sponsored by business interests—might affect Arabs to become radicalized against us. Then change the policy.

    Unfortunately, America’s method was akin to swatting at bee-hives with a stick. Now the whole world is infested with angry bees. Thanks.

    Well don’t worry, from the report’s that I have seen, Germany is not exactly ‘involved’ in Afghanistan.

    As far as I know, Germany provides logistical support (e.g. Ramstein), medical help (e.g. Landestuhl) and a small number of officers to train police forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I don’t mind the medical support, but I’m against logistical support and sending the officers.

    Unfortunately, that was Schroeder’s way of pulling wool over his country’s eyes; aiding in the attack would have been too obvious, but lending background support was a low-key extension to what Germany has been doing all along.

    Give it a little time. We are all going to find out soon enough that the new Russia is is very much like the old Russia.

    Maybe, maybe not. Finland has a long history with Russia—good and bad. In the wake of WW2 and in the midst of Kekkoslovakia-inspired hatred of Russians, it’s easy to forget that they liberated us from Swedish rule; that is, Sweden plundering our resources and using us to fight their wars. In effect, without Russia’s interference, there might not be an independent Finland today.

    History aside, I see Russia as an important trading partner for Finland—both currently and in the future. And it’s always been that way. Geographically speaking, it’s hard to avoid.

    And just why did they recently increase the exclusion zone at the border to 25 KM?

    Considering that Russia showed almost no military presence along the border for the past decade, it’s not surprising that they’d eventually re-stake their claim. It’s normal posturing.

    Militarily, the only conflict I can foresee is one that is invented by some future Finnish politician to manipulate the population. Truth is, we have nothing Russia wants. Russia will spend the next 50-years chasing after oil in the Caucuses; the risk/profit calculation looks much better there.

    And considering the social experimentation direction that Finland might be taking (#83), I don’t have much enthusiasm for defending against the Russians anyway. So, I agree with Antti: Invite them to the sauna for a beer.

  • JG

    Well, I have just been to vote. As a Finnish citizen, I could vote in the election for the municipal and county council in Stockholm and also the local voting on the Stockholm congestion tax / environment fee.

    In the end I decided to vote for social democrats in both local authority votes and yes to the congestion fee. I think if I was voting for the riksdag I would have perhaps voted for the environmental party greens as a protest, as I think the Social Democratic government is looking stale. However, I hope that the Alliance does not win, although it looks as if it will.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/ Fred Fry

    “My solution: Determine how our respective governments’ foreign policies—which are normally sponsored by business interests—might affect Arabs to become radicalized against us. Then change the policy.”
    – Sure, blame the victim. Just what radicalized muslims in Afghanistan? Russia perhaps? It is their own governments that are the problem. Take Somalia. That place is a hellhole, but ak a somali in Finland what the problem in the world is, and they blame Israel, completely ignoring there problems at home.

    “As far as I know, Germany provides logistical support (e.g. Ramstein), medical help (e.g. Landestuhl) and a small number of officers to train police forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I don’t mind the medical support, but I’m against logistical support and sending the officers.”
    – No. Germany permits the US to operate in Germany. They themselves do not provide direct support. The US operates both Ramstein and Landesstuhl. In Afghanistan, Germany has a number of ‘national caveots’ concerning their participation in the NATO Force, including a REFUSAL to transport non-German NATO forces as well as a REFUSAL to take part in any operations that involve fighting the Taliban.
    – As for training the Iraqi police, that program has been a complete failure.

    http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/2006/01/whose-side-is-germany-on.html

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Fred:
    It’s funny that the US spends so much in it’s military, yet you almost never see any sign of a military in the US.

    There are many factors here. For instance, you might want to compare population densities between central European countries and the US. While it’s easy to concentrate the military in huge bases in the middle of nowhere over there, it is slightly more difficult in countries that are basically giant suburbs.

    Also, the military has different priorities. The US military doesn’t seem to have territorial defence of their own soil as a very high one, even after 9/11. In Europe this is what the defence forces are primarily meant for. The defence forces of most European countries are mostly comprised of citizen-soldiers: conscripts and reservists.

    Last but not least, the military is nothing to be ashamed of, unless said military in engaged in shameful things. I don’t know about Greece, last time I was there the Cold War was still in full force and American military presence was quite strong, but in Finland you’re unlikely to encounter soldiers sporting “assault weapons” and their Pasis parked on the curb in the middle of town in broad daylight.

  • http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/ mjr

    Looks like the right will win there – I’m quite fine with that: there’s a huge consensus in Sweden that the welfare state must be maintained. Strange how popular these fair and just structures that enable all to compete in the society are popular in every country that has them…

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/ Fred Fry

    Freeridin’ Franklin,

    Thanks for the clarification. You are right in that US Law basically prevents soldiers form acting within the US, with some exceptions, most notably, concerning the use of the National guard as well as Coast Guard.

    “but in Finland you’re unlikely to encounter soldiers sporting “assault weapons””

    I have to laugh at that one. Back in 2002 we were staying in a Rented apartment in downtown Helsinki. There were national excercises going on that week and on the same street was some sort of HQ and they had ‘armed’ guards posted on the street. I was challenged by one at 0300 when I was returning all drunk. Good thing he didn’t think that I ws part of the test!

  • Antti (the redneck one)

    “According to Carl B Hamilton´s calculations…”

    And what numbers did James Bond come up with :lol:

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Carl Hamilton (by Jan Guillou) is the Sweden’s secret asset and number one defender of Folkhemmet’s interest at home and abroad.

  • http://finnpundit.blogspot.com Finnpundit

    Excellent news from Sweden, as the Social Democrats lose, and the monstrous Goran Persson is out of a job!

    More on this, in Why should the world care how Sweden votes?:

    http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=4925&date=20060917

    The challenge for the winners, though, remains in dismantling the excesses of the exploitative welfare state. For starters, it would help if Sweden would clean up its statistical studies so that they become more trustworthy again.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    I dont see how that changes the meaning of the sentence. You want English speaking delivery staff. Most docs should speak english if they survived med school anyway.

    M – It was offered to me. I did not ask as I, too, assumed any medical staff worth a whit would know how to shout “PUSH” at the appropriate times. Not to mention my husband would be able to translate anything I didn’t understand. I still don’t know how applying for a said English speaking staff would work.

  • tomia

    And you can be sure that I will mostly just not speak of Finland once home.

    Huh? Why would you?

    Why would I expect Finland to develop any sort of grace or manners just because I’m leaving?

    Huh?

    You’ll always be Finland, ready to whip out the stats for all to see and attack anyone who suggests otherwise that you’re the best at everything all while nothing changes and nobody cares.

    Huh?

    Finland is, by the way, far from being the best, but then again, Finland is far from being the worst either.

    The idea behind these different stats and comparisons is to give an objective overall picture of how things stand or which way they are going. If, say, as many babies as in the USA would die in Finland, or there would a trend toward such horrible a situation, something would be done.

    You see, it’s not because of magic or a freak accident why Finland usually does pretty well in many international comparisons. Rather, it’s because the society has been deliberately changed towards certain goals over the years. That, again, has been possible because an average Finn trusts the government and other institutions. The other side of the coin is that bad decisions have been made, too, and people have accepted them when they perhaps should have protested.

    But can I expect you to understand what I wrote? Judging by your comments so far, I doubt it very much.

    So, I see no reason to carry on a conversation with you. Not because I couldn’t accept criticism – why on earth couldn’t I? – but because you can’t argue in a rationla manner – and furthermore you are a racist, or very close to one.

    But, hey, it’s not your fault, I guess, you’re an white American and thus a racist by definition. And I’m sure that going through the American catastrophe, aka education system, hasn’t helped either. Besides, your confused comments lead to believe that you’re high on something, as most American usually are. Or perhaps you’re just plain drunk.

    Oh, I just made the mistake of stereotyping Americans. And that’s a definite no-no, a sign of a stupid, anti-American Finn. All rights to bigotry should be reserved to Americans like you.

    The End

  • Blah

    Bravo tomia bravo. Now may I suggest that all of the finnish readers here will get drunk and go pooping in the streets of Punavuori so that hfb’s little racist illusions won’t shatter apart.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/ Fred Fry

    “You see, it’s not because of magic or a freak accident why Finland usually does pretty well in many international comparisons. Rather, it’s because the society has been deliberately changed towards certain goals over the years. That, again, has been possible because an average Finn trusts the government and other institutions.”

    There is also the issue of only needing to convince 5 million people with similar education and expeiences to accept changes as oppossed to the US where you have about 300 million very diverse people where you will almost always have a sizable portion of the population against anything.

    Take checks. Finland got rid of them. In the US, there is basically no need to use them anymore with checking accounts coming with ‘check cards.’ Yet, there are still these annoying people that just have to use them. (and get cash back!)

  • tim73

    “Hfb: You’ll always be Finland, ready to whip out the stats for all to see and attack anyone who suggests otherwise that you’re the best at everything all while nothing changes and nobody cares.”

    Opinions are not facts and that is all you are offering. You do not bother to back up your opinions or suggestions with anything factual, like for example, with international statistics or research studies.

    Personal experiences are fine but those do not necessarily tell the whole story. It is not like in the America where everybody’s “opinion” or “feel” must be respected no matter how stupid it is.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    There is also the issue of only needing to convince 5 million people with similar education and expeiences to accept changes

    Where do you get this idea of a similar education? Not all Finns were born in the 70s or after that, you know. Many elderly Finns have very limited formal education. Not to mention that not all the younger ones have upper secondary or university level education.

    But otherwise the Finnish population is more homogeneous, for sure. As for your check example, while most people probably take care of practically all their banking through the net these days, you’ll find the grannies obediently queuing at the local bank office.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    tim73:
    It is not like in the America where everybody’s “opinion” or “feel” must be respected no matter how stupid it is.

    I rather find the culture of listening to all opinions, however zany they might be, quite commendable. According to you, what would be the central authority that discerned which opinions are worth any attention?

    But I agree that often statistics and such are more reliable than personal anecdotes. One example would be a delegation of Finnish MPs to the People’s Republic of Korea some time in the 90s. According to them there was no famine in the DPRK, as they ate quite well during their visit.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Kristian:
    “My solution: Determine how our respective governments’ foreign policies—which are normally sponsored by business interests—might affect Arabs to become radicalized against us. Then change the policy.”

    Fred Fry:

    - Sure, blame the victim. Just what radicalized muslims in Afghanistan? Russia perhaps? It is their own governments that are the problem.

    That’s an obvious one: The US had military bases all over the Middle East—Yemen, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc. Of course, Arabs should fault their own respective dictators for allowing America onto their land, but America sponsored those dictators and gave them every incentive to oppress their own people. The radicalization was a response.

    Fred Fry:

    - No. Germany permits the US to operate in Germany. They themselves do not provide direct support. The US operates both Ramstein and Landesstuhl. In Afghanistan, Germany has a number of ‘national caveots’ concerning their participation in the NATO Force, including a REFUSAL to transport non-German NATO forces as well as a REFUSAL to take part in any operations that involve fighting the Taliban.
    - As for training the Iraqi police, that program has been a complete failure.

    Good, I feel just as strongly about Germany not being there as I do about the US. However, I believe it was alleged that Germany’s military colluded in the US’ torture scheme, at least by allowing victims to be transported through the country’s airspace.

    I don’t think the German public’s overall unwillingness to participate in the attacks, or their aftermath, was a result of WW2 revenge (from your blog). Rather, it was a philosophical difference based on current-day events—quite frankly, America’s ‘big stick’ approach shocked most Germans and Europeans. For reasoning behind the German public’s sentiment, my last post probably summed-it-up with pretty good accuracy.

    As for the political ‘angle’, Schroeder is a leftist and had economic and philosophical differences with America’s C/R. He compensated by developing stronger ties with Russia. It makes sense because Russia pipes-in a whole bunch of natural gas, directly over Germany’s eastern border via Poland. There might be some lines in the Gulf of Finland too, but I can’t remember for sure.

    I can say with certainty, that, before America attacked Afghanistan, there was NO anti-America climate in Germany. You can thank Bill Clinton for that. I’m not saying that he did any great things; but, rather, he just had a way of communicating that resonated well with Germans and Europeans.

  • Boyle

    Pre-Bush anti-americanism was mainly cultural (anti-mac, anti-baggy jeans, anti-american accent, etc.)

    GWB-period made the anti-americanism political, as it has been long time in many other parts of the world (Latin America, Russia)

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com fred fry

    People hated GWB simply because he was not cultured like them. So, all what has happened since should be Europe’s fault, it’s because they didn’t want to play with ‘George’ that he had to go and find something else to do…..

    Complains about the President not asking the right way, or saying what he feels. Even the US State Department people forgot who they work for and openly criticized their boss. Perhaps the President is at fault, because if you play by the rules, you can break sanctions, murder millions, openly defy the UN, rape children, and assist terrorists, as long as you know the process.

    I was in Finland for the 2000 Election and was asked countless times who I voted for. The common question after I answered was “but why?” with a look of disbelief.

  • Kristian (in Espoo)

    Yeah, but they didn’t necessarily dislike him at first. I don’t think people really payed much attention, other than knowing he was George Sr.’s son. And for the most part, Germans liked George Sr.

    But once the bombing started, people and the news media analyzed him more closely. I don’t think they caught-on to his lack of sophistication early-on though; but I think that’s probably because many in central Europe don’t have enough english language skills to catch such nuances—as plain as those nuances were.

    When the ketchup lady’s husband lost to W, Germans were really floored. They just couldn’t believe Americans would vote for him again. They only saw things from a foreign policy perspective though and didn’t consider internal matters, like taxes, religion, etc.

  • winter

    “ketchup lady’s husband lost to W, Germans were really floored.”

    I can’t remember what his name was either? Must have been a dud guy.

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