Perhaps the dictionary of your phone is based on some edition of the dictionary of modern Finnish (‘Nykysuomen Sanakirja’) and ‘Näin’ -word definition is still legacy of some 30′s edition and written by an Academic Karelia Society (AKS) member.

…Because of Karelia lost area in Russo-Finnish 1939-40 War

The Finnish example is the same.

…Because of Karelia lost area in Russo-Finnish 1939-40 War
If you were there, I can understand, but that was over sixty years ago. If you had said something about organized crime or the pollution in the Baltic, I’d be more sympathetic.

The memories of Europeans amazes me. Russians are still pissed off at Poland for something they did 400 years ago. Serbs want Kosovo because of something that happened 500 years ago. I suppose Americans should hate the English for burning our capitol, but we got over it a long time ago…

I think the Native Americans might disagree.

Er, sorry, that’s 600 years ago on Kosovo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo

”
I think the Native Americans might disagree. ”

There’s a difference between losing a war and a little land and losing everything and being absorbed in an alien culture.

dhen, 60 years is nothing. My mother moved from occupied zones when she was 2 years old. My grandmom’s hate for russians was something to see. Not to mention my grandpa.

How can you say just a little land. My family lost 3 of my mom’s brothers, their home and everything. They watched their neighbours burn down their homes. Carelia was the most important part of Finland, center of culture, trade and agriculture. It’s easy not to hate something 1000′s of kilometers away.

i agree with dhen.

nationalism atleast in europe sucks ass big time, maybe it’s better in usa, dunno.

#8

I can sympathize on an emotional level, but I have to ask what good is it to hate a whole people. Wastn’t two world wars enough? Looking at the Balkans and the increase in neonazism, appearantly not.

Stalin was no democrat. It doesn’t seem logical to hate a people for his actions. I’m quite sure the peasants conscripted into the Red Army would have preferred to stay home.

#9

America has it’s own nationalist issues as well, but I don’t care for that either.

#4 I agree with the memory of Europeans, but I disagree with your view on American one. You’re still overdramatic with anything that relates to Afro-American past “should you apologize or not”. In Europe it’s nationalism, in the US it’s race.

Well, My granma was from Suistamo. She saw her home place again in the 90′s, a couple years before her death, when my dad showed some photographs he had taken on his trip there after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Dad was from Ilomantsi and remembers the columns of horse carriages returning from the front with coffins. They were evacuated later, but the Ilomantsi evacuees had a place to return to. Mom was in Helsinki and was sent to Sweden to escape the worst bombings. It is all pretty close in the family.

Can’t much blame the average russian though. Stalin had them killed by how many? tens of millions all together. They say he was insulted, when Karelia was handed over empty and there was no one to cheer for his “liberators”. They didn’t manage to level Helsinki and the first FREE elections in the whole damn Europe after WWII took place in Finland. That’s enough victory for me.

What comes to Karelia now, I think the damage is irreversible. Nothing is going to turn Vyborg back into vibrant, cosmopolitan city it used to be. Old Karelians with their language and almost singing way of speaking are long gone. There is no place in modern society for those so called “god’s crazy” people of Karelian villages. There is no point demanding the area back.

I have many russian colleagues and they have my respect. It would be absolutely stupid to blame them for the time they weren’t even born yet. But don’t expect me to put single penny for restauration of some damn Alvar Aalto’s box or something over there. It’s all theirs now. They paid a dear price for it in blood and the guarantee period has expired long ago.

Heh, aren’t there people in U.S. flying the confederate flag and complaining about Lee not listening to Longstreet.

#11 You have a point. I wasn’t trying to preach, though I may have sounded like it.

Still, though, there is something different about European nationalism. Blacks complain about racism because it affects their lives. While some whites don’t think there is a problem. It’s very complicated, but economics is a big part of it.

Other than emotion, what difference does it make that X country invaded Y country 500 years ago?

#12 That seems pretty reasonable, and I can’t imagine why anyone in Finland would want to pay for buildings that were stolen from them.

#13 That whole rebel flag thing defies all logic. I’ve heard Southerners claim it has more to do with their self-identity than the war. The rest of the country, including where I grew up, just doesn’t understand why they still talk about it.

But yeah, I suppose we have some European-type nationalism here, too, though I doubt the South has any plans on seccession any time soon.

#12

Antti—

Karelia is a difficult topic for sure. It’s proximity to St. Petersberg would make it vulnerable once again. And what would happen to the Russians who live there?

Part of my family is from Mikkeli, which was bombed heavily. Everyone there hated Russians for a long time. Even in the 80′s and 90′s, it was common to hear people in bars talk loudly of killing Russians ‘on-sight.’ In fact, that kind of talk was acceptable in polite conversation too.

I think it’s starting to get better now. New generation; no memories. The Sokos store even has Cyrillic writing to guide Russians through their shopping experience.

And their shopping behavior is probably reason #1 for why people dislike them these days. Generally—and this is really a gross generalization that might be based on old stereotypes—Russians have quite a self-important view of themselves. It’s still the biggest country in the world and many Russians act accordingly—rude, obnoxious, demanding….

Sort of like Americans

#16

*St. Petersburg.

Sorry, I always confuse fortresses with mountains :-/

Old Karelians with their language and almost singing way of speaking are long gone.

What’s the dialect they speak in Northern Karelia then?

Another reason for hating Russians: They’re sloppy bastards!

Understandable, considering the system they’ve had for the last 50-years.

Remember Estonia’s former president; I think his name is Lennart Meri? He was known for fixing things around the presidential palace—toasters, lamps, door handles. It was his way to “reverse 50-years of Russian carelessness, neglect and sloppiness.” (paraphrased)

I witnessed Russian sloppiness first-hand in eastern Germany. Their dwellings were always unkempt and deteriorating—despite having enough money to fix them. They just seem to have different priorities from everyone else.

Yet another reason for hating Russians: Their business ethic!

Again, it’s understandable considering the system they’ve had for the last 50-years.

In fact, they’ve become experts in cheating any system they’re part of. The (German) company I work for, has difficulty working with them. They say that certain things which are commonly understood in business, just don’t matter to them—like adhering to contracts.

My relatives here in Finland—who’s companies deal with Russia—say the same thing. They say there’s always a feeling that they want to get something for doing nothing. It’s always about little cheating games.

I’ve had no direct experience with them, but what I’ve heard from people who’ve worked with them is markedly consistent. Maybe the new Generation of Russians is different?

I guess the business over the russian border is to some extent returning back to where it was before the 1917. Eastern Finland is supplying St. Petersburg and Russians come over for holidays or shopping. (However, I’m not going to re-open the small tailor’s shop my Estonian great-granduncle had in St.Petersburg before the revolution )

“Sort of like Americans…”

Heh, I have noticed the same. Both nations believe in the destiny of their greatness and it seems to produce the same results in both good and bad. There are “ugly Russians” and those with generosity of mind. In Siberia they “pop in to watch the game” in the neighbouring town (distance 1500km). They also like to solve engineering problems by putting a huge engine into it and are genuinely offended, if the rest of the world doesn’t necessarily understand their “good intentions”.

“What’s the dialect they speak in Northern Karelia then?”

Well, in Northern Karelia, we speak a dialect, which is officially counted to Savo dialects, although the Savo people don’t speak ‘Mie Sie’ and may twist the words from the “wrong” place. The border Karelian “language” is much more influenced by the Russian language and orthodox culture. A Suistamo evacuee might have said (approximately):

“A kui tänneh mierolle tulin ga moishet mulgokatshonnat sain ja viel piälle nagrettih”

(When I came to this strange place, people gave me dirty looks and laughed at me.)

I think “miero” is when I came here as a stranger/as a beggar… as a landless person without a fixed abode.

I guess Phil fooled you again with his incredible photoshop skills.

I suppose Americans should hate the English for burning our capitol, but we got over it a long time ago…

Who, those tea-supping limeys? Trust me, if anyone tried to rejoin the US to the British Commonwealth and exchange our dollars for ones with photos of Elizabeth II, we’d be out in the streets with pitchforks tarring and feathering every Robbie Williams look alike in sight, mate.

I witnessed Russian sloppiness first-hand in eastern Germany. Their dwellings were always unkempt and deteriorating—despite having enough money to fix them. They just seem to have different priorities from everyone else.

In Estonia I think they don’t mind Russian culture (ballet, literature, films etc.) but they don’t like the colonist attitude. I mean there are guys in Tallinn who can’t speak any Estonian. They go up to the Estonian shopkeeper and demand to speak in Russian, like everyone has to know Russian in Estonia, not vice versa. Which is pretty amazing if you’ve lived there all your life. I guess they walk around with their fingers in their ears …

Who, those tea-supping limeys? Trust me, if anyone tried to rejoin the US to the British Commonwealth and exchange our dollars for ones with photos of Elizabeth II, we’d be out in the streets with pitchforks tarring and feathering every Robbie Williams look alike in sight, mate.

I think that has more to do with Americans not trusting foreign organizations in general rather than antipathy towards the British. Can you think of any foreigh country that Americans would like to have as head of state – even if only a ceremonial one?

There are “ugly Russians” and those with generosity of mind.

Kind of like people anywhere, right?

I think that has more to do with Americans not trusting foreign organizations in general rather than antipathy towards the British.

On the face of it, we’re the best of friends. But underneath the Anglo-American comradery, most Americans probably see Brits as arrogant elitist snobs. Brits most likely see Americans as backwards idiots. Brusque “yanks” or aggressive “cowboys.”

I’ve been to Canada several times and I still can’t believe that Her Majesty Elizabeth II is on their money. What a joke! I mean she’s not even the legitimate monarch. Everyone knows that the Stuarts should be on that throne, not the Windsors …

Anyway, I’m glad we were victorious. Twice.

“They go up to the Estonian shopkeeper and demand to speak in Russian”

Yeah, Russian is the universal language in all of eastern Europe. It’s like English in western Europe. All of my eastern German colleagues speak Russian. Very few speak English. It was required to learn Russian as their second language. English could be chosen as the third, but only a few took that option; other study-commitments usually precluded it. Besides, where would they have used it?

My friend has a girlfriend who moved from Russia. She says that it’s still common for Russians to think they are *the* superpower at the center of the universe. I guess people in Russia don’t travel much.

But, perhaps they are still a superpower in many ways. The country has endless resources and spans two-continents—Europe and Asia (I think they count as two). And by virtue of their sheer size, they are untouchable—or at least, unoccupiable—even by the US.

For Finland, it’s still an important country. We get the largest share of our energy resources from Russia, and it might prove to become a great trading partner in the future. It’s just too bad they don’t produce any innovative consumer products we want—like the Flowbee, for example.

When I think about supporting Finland’s welfare state by paying 22-euros for a men’s haircut, I start looking at other alternatives.

http://www.flowbee.com/

Oil, gas and coal are fine, if not necessary; but they are rather boring as trading commodities.

#23 Thanks, Wank. That was the translation I was chasing for. Arriving as a poor stranger to a strange place.

I might hate Russians if I had to try to do business there. I think Kristian was being too generous when he blamed the dishonesty on the Soviet Union. It’s not like Russia was a model of transperent transactions before 1917, either. I’m sure the same is probably true for the dirtiness as well.

Russians may well think they’re still a superpower, and they do sell a lot a arms, for example. From what I’ve heard France thinks they are, too, which is rather amuzing if true.

In my opinion Russia is a real land of contradictions. A filthy, corrupt, money grubbing place that has produced significant achievements in the arts and sciences. It’s one of the minerally richest countries in the world, yet it’s poor. It’s anarchistic and disorganized, yet they used to be a superpower and defeated the Nazi war machine.

The place doesn’t seem to make any sense, yet somehow it has existed for centuries. Anyone ever read Tolstoy’s History of Russian Government?

Hey, I just got back from a recumbent bicycle ride to Porkkala—55mi/88km round-trip from my home. You can see it here on the map; the name isn’t listed, but it’s the little two-pronged peninsula between Helsinki and Hanko.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/finland_rel96.jpg

The peninsula is 12mi/19km long and is quite idyllic, with old traditional Finnish houses and farms. There were very few cars, so it would be a peaceful place to live.

Hard to imagine that, until 1956, it was part of a Russian-occupied zone—about 30km^2, IIRC. My father and uncles have memories of riding the train through the Russian zone. All windows of the train were covered, so no one could see outside. The train’s interior was made dark. I think the Russians checked passenger ID’s too, but I can’t remember for sure. My uncle said it was kind of scary.

But the real scary part was that, being positioned in Porkkala, Russian artillery shells were within range of flattening Helsinki—once again.

Yet another ‘historical’ reason for inbred uneasiness of Russians.

Nr 32… Porkkala.

Yes, it is a good reason why some people still are less than enthusiastic when it comes to finding warm feelings for Russia.

And for people who are always saying on here that the Finland-Swedes are living in some privelged upper class world, it’s worth noting that this area was very much a Swedish speaking area, and that it was these people that were evicted to make way for the Russian occupation of Porkkala. When 1956 came, many of their homes and churches had been destroyed or left in a very run down state by the Soviets.

By the way, that’s an impressive cycle distance for a return trip! Still, it is a nice area.

@ JG (post 33):

While the rest of Finland helped to relocate the Karelian evacuees, the swedish speakers made sure that they had to do zero. They managed to influence the parliament in such a way that when everyone else had to share their lands with the evacuees and help them financially, the swedish speakers had to give up nothing and so they managed to cling to their lands and wealth, without sharing anything with those that were in need.

Thus all the finnish speaking land owners chopped their lands to smaller chuncks and gave some to the evacuees but the swedish speaking ones were the only ones who actually didn’t have to lift a finger.

Nr 34, Åboy…
yeah, it is a fair point. But I think that the argument here would be that the Swedish speaking areas would have been at risk from extreme dilution and that their linguistic percentage would be extraordinarily changed overnight if an influx of Finnish speakers had made their way into primarily Swedish-speaking communities.

I understand how it can reasonably be seen in the negative way you suggest, as of course it was a huge burden on the country to have to make room for the refugees from the Russian annexation areas. But, I think it was wise to safeguard Finland’s Swedish speaking culture.

And you have to say, that more than just the Swedish speaking parliament members would have determined this.

A funny story—one of the cabins on my uncle’s summer property in Fiskars was originally built as a home for Karelian refugees. But the prospective owners only lasted for one year because of their inability to adapt to the Swedish language and culture. Hence, they deserted the cabin and it was later relocated a few kilometers to my uncle’s property.

JG—yes, it was quite a ride. It was already dark when I rode back from Porkkala. I like to ride that area at night to avoid traffic.

Seems like the Swedish-speaking zone ends at Kirkkonummi/Porkkala; everything eastward is Finnish-speaking. However, any left-over farmers are likely to be Swedish-speaking.

I wonder about the Finnish/Swedish membership ratio at Sarfvik. Someone told me it costs about 80K to join. I don’t know for sure though.

JG wrote:
“And you have to say, that more than just the Swedish speaking parliament members would have determined this.”

Maybe they knew the right people, had a lot of influential friends, high status in the society and a lot of influence of their own due to disproportionate representation in the parliament? I don’t know.

What I do know is that the swedish speaking minority clearly demonstrated that they didn’t wish to be part of the Finnish nation and didn’t want to have anything to do with the relocation effort of the evacuees from Karelia. Thus they did what they usually do: they segregated themselves from the finnish speakers and withdrew to their beau monde seclusion.

What I do know is that the swedish speaking minority clearly demonstrated that they didn’t wish to be part of the Finnish nation .

That’s simply not true. And politically, I almost always agree with your posts Åboy, but in this case I certainly do not. Swedish speakers fought alongside Finnish speakers in the war against the Russians with pride for their country, including both my own grandfathers. I know they were very strongly willing to defend their country without even the slightest regard to anything to do with language. I know of no Swedish speaker in Finland who has felt anything else other than Finnish when it comes to nationality. I reside in Stockholm right now for work, and I am proud to be from Finland.

As for the influence in parliament, it would take an awful lot of influential friends in parliament for around 16 or so parliament members to persuade the other 180 or so members.
///
JG—yes, it was quite a ride. It was already dark when I rode back from Porkkala. I like to ride that area at night to avoid traffic.

I wonder about the Finnish/Swedish membership ratio at Sarfvik. Someone told me it costs about 80K to join. I don’t know for sure though.

Yes, I think the Swedish speakers start to pelter out there too. The strength in percentage terms is falling as well in the eastern parts of that area due to the ever continuing move of people towards the capital region (even more apparent on the other side in Sibbo/Sipoo).

Interesting thought about Sarfvik. 80k is an awful lot!! Perhaps it’s more the Nokia elite there these days! I actually have no idea. Although as an observation, their website is entirely monolingual in Finnish.

I think I need to give my cycle a bit more action before the winter comes.

The only Swedish speakers to “blame” were the land-owning upper-class (which isn’t the majority of them nor is it the majority of Finnish speakers) who refused to give their owned lands for refugees and I believe simply came up with suitable excuses etc. reasoning which they used to serve their best interest. And they had political connections to Sweden, which at the time was such an important link to Finland and the last thing Finland wanted after the war was to sour relations with Sweden. From what I’ve read about the Karelian refugees experiences with Swedish speaking commoners, they were extremely sympathetic and helpful, nothing else.

As far as the North-Karelian dialect thing goes, it is more like the Savo-dialect for a very good reason. Heck, the peace of Stolbova saw a mass fleeing of the original Orthodox Carelians to Tver region and the current population mainly descends from the newcomers who took their place (or atleast they are an important factor). And they did speak “mie sie” in Savo too the last time I was in Kuopio… North-Karelia is in my view very pseudo-Karelian at best. And I say that with lifelong experience.

Although more and more young people in Joensuu etc. nowadays sound more like they come from Häme/Uusimaa with their Tv-influenced youth-slang, totally lacking any so called mie-sie “peasant-talk”

More to the point – 80 € for that S60 dictionary?!?

http://www.kielikone.fi/default.aspx?intProductID=692