*grumble* Yeah, my husband and I just got back from walking down to Stockmann only to find it dark and locked. I think the dates must change every year as I’d swear they were open in Sept. last year. Where is the logic that they keep stores open on Sunday’s during the summer when everyone is presumeably out in the countryside only to close them when people are finally back in town? I still don’t get the Saturday closed at 6pm rules either as it forces everyone to do their shopping for the week in one short 6 hour period on Saturday.

Is it the politicians or the labour unions who are responsible?

Where is the logic that they keep stores open on Sunday’s during the summer when everyone is presumeably out in the countryside only to close them when people are finally back in town?

I wondered the exact same thing.

Blame the union.
Blame the socialist “hoch potch” of government with conseus politics so nothing gets done.
Heck. blame my ISP today as well. Bloody pig system.

A better approach is definitely needed…

But first, my local supermarket happens to be open, which is nice for me. Also, K-Market in Kamppi is open on Sundays too, albeit not late enough overall. But, for the most part, I feel that my needs are met. Obviously though, not all stores are open Sundays.

I remember complaining about this very topic one day at a tram stop in Germany. I just couldn’t get over everything being closed. Well, the anonymous girl with whom I was conversing became incensed and lectured me about how most retail workers are women and they should be home at reasonable hours to care for their families.

It wasn’t much consolation for me at the time, but, admittedly, I now see that she had a good point. And when I think about all the chaotic family lifestyles in the United States—where people work all the time—it makes even more sense to me.

But, I don’t think that *every* single store needs to be closed either. They could provide students with Sunday and night jobs so that older workers can have time off. In fact, many of those R-Kioskit could be 24-hour stores.

The system definitely needs an overhaul, albeit a careful one.

I hate this topic.

No matter what excuses anyone gives, the simple fact is that all of those excuses are bullshit.

Welcome to the 21st century. Open the fucking doors!

I have never understood why the government lets shops open on summer Sundays either. In my opinion it is unnecessary and they should stay closed. I understand the logic behind December Sundays before Christmas though.

I think its sad things are becoming increasingly commercial, with shops now staying open later on Saturdays (they always used to shut by around 15.00 in the past). Sunday should stay as a day free from commercialism. Noone managed not to plan their shopping around Saturday evenings and Sundays being free from shops in the past, so I don’t see why people should not be able to cope today.

Just a side question:
Is there any 24 hour store in all of Finland????
I mean any friggin supermarket which is open all the time 24/7?? I think there should be atleast one in and around the capital area or something….cuz this current system is totally ridiculous.

Kristian – Given the low birthrate throughout the EU and not just Finland, I suspect there are plenty of women without kids who could run shops on normal hours during the weekends. Not to mention the part-time jobs for furriners and students who could use the jobs with oddball hours to make some money. Retail shopping jobs aren’t what causes the breakdown of the US family. Just think of all the mothers who work during the week and can go home, see their family, relax and not worry that they have only 30 minutes to get to the store or be SOL for getting their groceries over the weekend. Besides, there are plenty of salaried professional jobs, both here and back in the states, where working late and working weekends without extra pay are standard issue.

Nokia guru – well, if you need an enema bag at 3am, you can go by the one aptekki in town that’s open 24 hours up north in Töölö. Otherwise, no, not that I’ve ever seen.

“Retail shopping jobs aren’t what causes the breakdown of the US family.”

No, but they do cause chaos. And chaos isn’t great for families. It might not be a determining factor in ‘breakdowns’ but it doesn’t help.

“Besides, there are plenty of salaried professional jobs, both here and back in the states, where working late and working weekends without extra pay are standard issue.”

I think we’d like to avoid it here as much as possible. Personally, I don’t mind that lifestyle, but most people here don’t see it as a wonderful aspiration. In that way, I’m sure many are glad we’re not like the States.

I suspect there are plenty of women without kids who could run shops on normal hours during the weekends. Not to mention the part-time jobs for furriners and students who could use the jobs with oddball hours”

I agree completely. I wish the unions would agree too :-/

Maybe another view: I was in Korea, not the first time. On weekends the malls are full of children, playing, sleeping, sreeming etc.. Especially families are out to shop. I am enjoying it. Shopping is relaxing then, no time pressure, sometimes fun. Our old Europe rules are not fitting with the real world. That is my impression.

One thing to consider when making comparisons: The American workers get STOMPED ON by their employers. And they can’t really fight back, because everything depends on their jobs—health insurance, living expenses, etc.

Just think, American employers demand that workers expose their genitals and urinate into vials, so their bodily fluids can be inspected.

That’s an indignity akin to forced prostitution. Yet the worker has no choice: Drop the pants and urinate, or lose the job or job prospect. And lose any prospect for health insurance and paying the rent/mortgage.

For this reason alone, I’ll never work for an American firm or any other where this practice is commonplace. I’m not a big union supporter, but it gives me the creeps to think how gullible American workers are.

In fairness though, only the big companies do it. I worked for a mid-sized American firm once, and they didn’t request it. But, I was prepared to walk away if necessary.

Kristian – I had to pee into a cup for my employer here in Finland. Oh, and only because I’ve been in the medical profession did my eye catch the vial for blood that would denote an AIDS test…which my employer did NOT inform me would be part of the health screen. Even the US employer would not be so bold or even legally able to do. After I asked my fellow colleagues about the AIDS thing, I think several went to complain to HR but…this company is quasi-state so I don’t think it’s unusual.

hbf—I know they do it here too. I won’t play along though. Again, it’s easier to walk away here than in the States—especially for the lower income people.

Do you know what they were supposed to be testing for? Are there any EU rules regarding this?

“One thing to consider when making comparisons: The American workers get STOMPED ON by their employers.”

Gee, what a blanket statement. It is a shame because there are many great employers in the US, both large and small. Those are more the ones who are not interested in training someone only to see them take the training somewhere else. I have been running my shop for about 4 years now and have had only 1 person leave. She told me her plans to go to school. We made arrangements so she could work part-time while in class, knowing full-well that she would leave once school was done. This is more commen than you would think.

In Finland the unions have their grip on everything, even if your not a member of the union, because the agreements apply to everyone. This leaves employers little flxibility to reward good workers, because you are by default punishing the rest.

How is it easier to do it here? I wouldn’t have gotten the job and, after being out of a job and not on the dole for 2 years, is a pee test really that easy to walk away from? Especially in a place where it is nearly impossible to fire someone, I’m surprised more companies don’t do it more often, especially given some of the sensitive data someone like myself comes in contact with where drunks or druggies would be an unacceptable liability. I don’t know of any EU regulations regarding urine-based drug tests though.

The ironic part is that they kept apologizing for the pee test which, having been used to it for high security positions in the US, I thought nothing of it. Just another cup to pee into. The AIDS test is what floored me as it wasn’t mentioned at all. The woman drawing blood jumped when I recognised the vial and relexively said “What the fuck? an AIDS test?” rather loudly. The reasoning we were given for that it was ‘for our own personal information’ to which I was pretty annoyed given that I was already pretty certain I was not at risk for HIV. Supposedly neither the employer nor the state were privy to the results, but I don’t know that I really believe that. In the US, if some employer did that, jesus, they’d be on CNN in a flash and sued for a small fortune.

Don’t you think that the main reason for keeping shops closed is that they don’t want to pay higher salary for weekend and night work?

You must be FINN to find any logical explanation in keeping shops open and make big SALES in the summer time, when all the people are travelling.

Gees, and I thought it was bad when the dollar store wasn’t open until noon today.

“Don’t you think that the main reason for keeping shops closed is that they don’t want to pay higher salary for weekend and night work?”

Unfortunately, we don’t know as the law does not give them the option of being open, other than the excemption for small kiosks. Strange, when they are allowed to be open, they are……

Fred—

“It is a shame because there are many great employers in the US, both large and small.”

Yes, it was a blanket statement. Unfair I suppose. I realize there are good employers in the States. I particularly like middle sized companies in the States. In fact, they’re run much like middle-sized companies in Europe and have comparable working atmospheres and flexible ways. Generally, I don’t see unions as a benefit in those types of ‘professional services’ firms.

I don’t think ‘professionals’ have to worry about employers stomping on them. But low-skilled workers in the US do. Unions can help less-skilled workers who can’t easily job-shop. But you’re accurate in stating that unions are too inflexible here in Finland. I don’t think they’re doing themselves any favors. It makes me sick to see all those tourists roaming the streets, yet all stores are closed. It makes no sense. Maybe the membership also needs to be more flexible though.

My current company (in Germany) doesn’t have a union per se, but it does engage in collective bargaining with an ‘employee representative council.’ I don’t see anything limiting about it though—not for me anyway. But I personally don’t benefit from their activities either. One thing I like is their great employee party ideas. Last Christmas party was a drag show! It was quite a drunken riot trying to avoid these ‘queens’ sitting on our laps

It’s not just about wearing our Red T-shirts, ya know

Here’s a brief summary for grocery store opening hours in Finland according to the law http://www.pty.fi/liikeaikalaki.htm
Mon-Fri 7-21, Sat 7-18,
Sun 12-21 every month for stores smaller than 400 square meters. Larger stores can open their doors on Sundays in May, June, July, August, November and December.
However, stores must be closed on church holidays, 1st May, Mother’s day, Father’s day and independence day.
On 30th April and 31st December they must close at 18 and on Midsummer eve and Christmas eve at 13.
If there are two consecutive church holidays (like on Easter and Christmas) grocery stores are allowed to stay open four hours between 8 and 18 on the latter day.
These restrictions don’t apply to kiosks that are smaller than 100 square metres and that don’t sell jewellery, clothing, photographic equipment, electronics etc whose unit price exceeds 1000 Finnish Marks (!)
Neither does the law apply to stores that are located outside densely populated areas (there is no asemakaava).
Simple, isn’t it? However, there are quite a few exceptions that you should check yourselves. I’m not a lawyer but this is just something you need to know if you want to buy some milk in Finland.

Oh, and IIRC Helsinki downtown “Tunnel” is allowed to be open 8-22 daily, I think the Alepa and Valintatalo are open.. maybe the new SPAR too???

Welcome to the 21st century. Get Government out of our lives.

What a good example of why Government is BAD BAD BAD.

Like real estate, location, location, location.

You all can thank me later.

“American workers get STOMPED ON by their employers. And they can’t really fight back, because everything depends on their jobs—health insurance, living expenses, etc.”

such bull. I have changed jobes 5-6 times, all for better wage conditions, and in one case to fire my boss.

If anything, employees take advantage of Good Employers.

Depends on the skillset, winter. If your skill happens to be in-demand, then you’ve got lots of options. Retail employees don’t have many choices. Or otherwise stated, their conditions are the same no matter where they go—low wages, little vacation, etc.

Many types of unskilled and semi-skilled labor jobs are like that. That’s why Americans in those positions work multiple jobs and many hours per week to survive. It’s no secret.

For us, it’s not as simple as getting government out (as you say) because this is what people want. In fact, I don’t mind union’s existance, but, unfortunately, they’re operating in an outdated fashion.

“If your skill happens to be in-demand,”

Such bull again.

I changed skill sets and then got a better job. It took some study, a little testing to show I had it, but its easy to do. A Union would have actually stopped this upward move.

Don’t let anyone say you can’t go up. Better yet don’t listen to any Government or even a University worker (Professors are realy bad at predicting job opportunities). Do your own research, the good jobs are out there.

“Retail employees don’t have many choices. Or otherwise stated, their conditions are the same no matter where they go—low wages, little vacation, etc.”

Well they should get off their asses and learn what they need to know to get a better job.

I had posted on another thread info on the Training courses offered by the shipyard in Turku which lead directly to a job. There is no excuse for having no skills.

I worked for minimum wage and it sucks. Its a good place to learn.

By the way, students would probably find working on weekends a great way to earn extra cash, provided that they could keep their opintotukki regardless of how much they earn.

19:Here’s a brief summary for grocery store opening hours in Finland according to the law…

That is not a brief summary. Why should consumers have to memorize that?

Consumers are the lifeblood of an economy, – the final cells that wind up producing economic well-being. To straddle them with regulations regarding consumption, when they’re concentrating on production, is to make the cells anemic.

And European consumption remains anemic, so much so that they need to freeride on American consumers to meet the needs for European well-being.

10. American workers get STOMPED ON by their employers. I suppose that is why corporations American corporations spend millions on just trying to hire good workers.

Really, if Kristian spent some time in the US, it seems he really didn’t learn much.

Retail employees have lots of choices. I was one for years; it’s how I put myself through school and earned a graduate degree in my current field.

Kristian, the American employee isn’t as victimized as you think. Low wages and little vacation time can, and sometimes does, translate into management and perks if a worker pays his/her dues in longevity and skill.

I’m also repulsed by the idea of government imposing store hours in order to engineer family time. I’m damned grateful I can run and get my kid diapers at midnight if I have to, or that I can get groceries and coffee before the hordes storm the store. Many women in the states work part time, or work off hours, or work when the kids are sleeping, or don’t work at all, or or or or or–

The point being, we have a choice.

That is not a brief summary.

The point being, we have a choice.

Sorry, you just think you have. Actually you have to work whenever the employer tells you to. With one week’s summer vacation, for heaven’s sake! Soon that will be taken away, and then people like you will write how: “we have the choice to work all the year around, while you poor bastards in Finland have to have to stop working for 5-6 weeks every year”. I pray gods that we’ll never have the same kind of “choice” here.

If you folks just stopped for a minute, you’d understand that “liberating” everything sucks. But no, on the contrary, you guys with your one week vacation keep on giving us advice on how the society should be run! Can it get more absurd!

Now, if you need a diaper in the middle of the nigh, what can you do? Well, here in Finland these poor individuals go to one of those stores that are open all night. There are a few, hell, there are always people who can’t get their lives organized.

Yeah, I’m a brain-washed Finn. I’ve been indoctrinated to believe that it’s nice to have something else in my life than just work.

I would like to see that the 30 vacation/free days a year in Germany will stay for the majority. But the situation is: An Asian delegation came yesterday, Sunday, paying vist to a pruduction firm with 5000-7000 employees. The German company does not have contracts for the future anymore. The first 1000 will lose the job.That’s for sure. But nobody wanted to do some balance, number research at the weekend. That looks like that we don’t think you (Asians) are that important. We will do it on Monday.

Yeah, well, its called “planning ahead”, not *needing* a diaper in the middle of the night.

Belino:

“You must be a FINN to find that logical”

What a statement, you must be Italian for having such a bigotry thinking. Go home.

HAHA! This happened to me and my girlfriend too, we where looking everywhere for an open store so we could buy some food, eventually we just went for pizza.

tomia – Not everyone in Finland gets the 5-6 weeks holiday any more than every american worker gets only 1 week. I had 4 or 5 per year when I left though the longest chunk I’d ever take at once was 2 weeks. I actually miss the US workplace as with people out 5-6 weeks at a whack during the summer, gone for most of December, and sick at least one day a week for themselves or their kids not to mention off for school holidays, etc. it’s really, really difficult to depend on colleagues and others when you need them to get something done. There was one dude who just disappeared for 4 months earlier in the year…he came back and took 6 or 7 weeks holiday this summer. Here, I’m given 6x the amount of time to do anything that I would have back home and the expectations are so low that I almost feel guilty for taking a paycheck. There is some serious deadwood, too, that have been hired and worked around for more than a decade. It’s nice to have a life outside of work, but when you feel like your job is a complete waste of time, plentiful holidays or not, it’s still just a waste of time and does nothing for your sense of accomplishment.

I recommend a good reservoir of näkkileipä. Whether there is a nuclear fallout keeping you indoors for a couple of weeks or shops closed for sunday, you’ll survive.

I thought you guys were all about personal responsibility. But here you are bitching about store opening hours if the store is closed on sunday then you buy in advance all what you need, it’s that simple.

So if you didn’t buy milk or diapers then it’s your fault not the stores. Same thing with these coffee is hot labels, goddamn how dumb can you be if you’re stupid then fine be a dumbass but it isn’t somebody elses fault if you are so dimm that you don’t figure these things out all by yourself.

And I don’t mean that the stores should be closed or open on sundays it just isn’t that big of a deal for me to go shopping couple of days in advance before I run out of something.

when you feel like your job is a complete waste of time

then it’s obviously time to move on. If you have ended up with people who don’t take their job seriously, you yourself included, well, find people who do, if that’s important. Contrary to what you seem to think, there are a lot of those who take their jobs seriously. More of them than in most countries. I mean, how are you, for example, supposed to maintain the most efficient industrial sector in the world if your regular employee is this lazy no-good. Sounds strange indeed.

AFAIK the _average_ yearly vacation is one week in the USA. That means that there has to be a lot of people who have no vacation whatsoever.

Anyway, if you think you have to work without holidays in order to feel liberated, you can do it in Finland too. Just take an extra job, there are a lot of them particularly in the Helsinki area. Or perhaps you could talk to your employer and ask him to let you to skip the holiday … eh, well, perhaps better not because he’d probably think you’re nuts … and that’s not good for your future prospects in the firm.

I thought Finlandforthought was all about blanket statements. I could dig up some hilarious examples. Except when you say something about the US you apparently are required to mention every single exception from the general rule.

hfb -
If you feel like your job is a complete waste of time – quit. Remember you have a choice.

hfb: And yet most of the good stuff is made either in Asia or in Europe…so what the hell you do at work in America? Sell houses to each other and act busy? Which one you would rather buy, Made in Germany or Made in USA?

I have seen for years American economists predicting how “slow” EU cannot ever compete with US or Asia and yet things are quite well here. Even Germany is doing ok at the moment. We have not seen the same kind of mass exodus of manufacturing jobs going to Asia as US.

Maybe it is so because European companies are not thinking only how to optimize the next quartal results and mazimize CEO share options. I called this US way of doing things as one big locust economy: Mazimize the short term results, destroy the company and move on.

tomia – Why would I take an extra job as the taxation on anything over my primary salary in Finland is something like 65%. I did my time in the states working two jobs when I was an underpaid researcher moonlighting as a bartender with my tips almost topping my day job salary. I didn’t take vacations back then either as what would I do on my vacation without any money?

And I seem to be in pretty good company as most of the locals who I know who work in my field complain about the same problems though they aren’t stories that likely make it into the HS. I have actually asked to do certain tasks on holidays and weekends that generally impact customers when we are forced to do them on a weekday but have always been told that it would cost too much money to pay me and so…the customer gets the shaft and I get the extra stress of not having any dark time to do what needs to be done.

But…I suppose you miss my point is that there are shitty jobs in both countries and there is a significant cultural difference between the attitudes towards work.

Fred—

“Well they should get off their asses and learn what they need to know to get a better job.”

Yes, I know. They’re lazy. Everyone in the US who’s not lazy is always ‘on the ascent.’ Yet there’s still this huge pool of ‘ascenders’ stuck working multiple low-/semi-skilled jobs to keep a nose-length ahead of going into their second bankruptcy. I actually know some of these people; they’ve been ‘ascending’ for many years now—about 55+ hours per week between their several jobs. One is trying to figure out how to afford his upcoming retirement; probably just keep working.

Truth is: Some people either aren’t capable of learning skills or they have other commitments in lives that prevent them. For the latter case, a wife who works a grocery store job, while caring for her family, is a prime example. And *somebody* has to perform these low-/semi-skilled tasks. I don’t see why that person needs to be pushed into improving their skillset. A person should decide for themselves if they want to improve.

Low-/semi-skilled work should be a career choice like any other and not be penalized with no vacation, no healthcare, etc.

“By the way, students would probably find working on weekends a great way to earn extra cash”

Yes, that’s where the unions need to be more flexible. In fact,they need to be more flexible overall—that includes flexibility for its regular membership. They’re stuck in an old way of thinking that doesn’t help anyone. But they’ll change as society changes. I just wish it would happen faster.

In any case, regarding these workers, going completely to the American model just isn’t a solution that people here are willing to accept. They see the results very plainly…or maybe your many TV documentaries and news reports which feature the ‘working poor’ just aren’t getting the ‘true’ message across

And according to my own observations, America has quite an ill-tempered underclass to show for itself. Of course, America is an ill-tempered place to begin with, so maybe it’s just more pronounced among its ‘working poor.’ I guess this type of societal tension and chaos is what people here want to avoid.

“AFAIK the _average_ yearly vacation is one week in the USA. That means that there has to be a lot of people who have no vacation whatsoever.”
– I do not know of anyone who gets only one week of vacation. Could be that the average is so low because they look at part-timers who in general do note get benefits like vacation. (Because they are working part-time of course.)

“Here, I’m given 6x the amount of time to do anything that I would have back home and the expectations are so low that I almost feel guilty for taking a paycheck. There is some serious deadwood, too, that have been hired and worked around for more than a decade.”
– It is amazing that Finland rates so high in productivity. When I was living there the US was #1 and Finland was #3. There is a huge difference between places. It seems like the normal reaction to an influx of work was to go on sick leave.

“And yet most of the good stuff is made either in Asia or in Europe…so what the hell you do at work in America? Sell houses to each other and act busy? Which one you would rather buy, Made in Germany or Made in USA?”
– I always check where things are made. If you have no idea what is made in the US, then you should start looking yourself. Then again, Europe has been complaining recently about the trouble of meeting Kyoto because all the Alternative energy products are made in the US and all of a sudden none are available for export. (GE has start that they have sold out their 06 production.)

“Truth is: Some people either aren’t capable of learning skills or they have other commitments in lives that prevent them. For the latter case, a wife who works a grocery store job, while caring for her family, is a prime example. And *somebody* has to perform these low-/semi-skilled tasks. I don’t see why that person needs to be pushed into improving their skillset. A person should decide for themselves if they want to improve.”
– There are jobs that do not require much skill but require other things, like manual labor, or other sacrifices such as working away from home. Give me an example of people who can’t learn more skills? Parents have certainly proven that they learn new skills. Why not take a job at a daycare? As for the grocery store mommy, where is her husband? He should learn some new skills. Oh, she is a single mom who discounts the traditional family structure. Well perhaps she should they then find an alternative solution to her alternative lifestyle……….
– Someone needs to do there jobs, but why not the young? It teaches them responsibility. Why not the foreigners? There is no shortage of them who are unemployed.
– Many of the low-paying jobs in the US are also union jobs. Go into a supermarket in the US and there is probably a union sticker on the front door.

Oh yes, Happy Labor Day!

.

Thanks Fred, but ours is May 1st. heh heh

I have my red t-shirt here somewhere…NOT!

“- Give me an example of people who can’t learn more skills?”

I think I have given a great example by pointing out the enormous ‘working poor’ population in the States. Apparently, ascending through society’s ranks just isn’t their thing.

But since we’re on the topic of acquiring new skills… Since Americans at the bottom levels can’t seem to get respect from society, they’ve perfected the art of asserting themselves in other ways.

For example: There are many who go around ready to fight everyone (either verbally or physically). Or you have the ‘loud people’ who stupidly try to command everyone around them as if they are the prime possessors of common sense—something perhaps the more analytical *smart* people don’t seem to have at first contact. So the underclass person takes the opportunity to lash-out and feel self-important.

These are examples of a lowly-educated (but rather large) subset of Americans who can’t seem to get a base-level of respect from society, so they compensate by acting-out in obtrusive—if not aggressive—ways. I don’t think anyone wants such an extreme phenomenon here.

I’m not saying we don’t need improvements. I’ve (we’ve) already named a few, like giving students jobs and having more flexible unions. But it doesn’t mean dismantling everything completely and going to another extreme. Changes can have a better effect if the process doesn’t produce turmoil. That kind of stuff actually works here in Finland and much of Europe. I guess that’s why I like it here for the most part.

hbf—

Here’s a success story! Last night, at about 22:00, I decided to eat a salad. The only store open that late (AFAIK) on Sunday is a Siwa by you, near Punavuori!

Jumped on a bus from here in western Espoo; tram #3T/B from Kamppi. Made it 5-minutes before closing and got my produce!

The cashier even asked me if I found everything I needed. Good service

Just for kicks, I asked a few people along the way if there are any late-night grocery stores in Helsinki. They all replied: YES!

…but none could think of any in particular

Of course, the replies were as I expected. But, I figure it’s good to plant seeds of thought in people’s minds anyway.

48: Kristian, that was an incredibly bigoted comment. So what if some American poor act loudly? I welcome their desire to assert themselves. Chances are that their assertion will produce some kinds of results, some of which might be beneficial. In any case, it’s better than not doing anything.

If the contrast to that is some Finnish poor who are expected to keep mousy quiet and not disturb the peace, and assert themselves only at the ballot-box, where they can vote for those elites who think they understand what it’s like to be poor, then I’d say the American poor have it better, as Finnish poor get heard only once in any election year.

“If the contrast to that is some Finnish poor who are expected to keep mousy quiet and not disturb the peace, and assert themselves only at the ballot-box, where they can vote for those elites who think they understand what it’s like to be poor, then I’d say the American poor have it better, as Finnish poor get heard only once in any election year.”

Even if this were true, once every election year is still more often than the American poor are ever heard in the “democratic” process in the USA. In the two party system of USAs politics it takes a lot of money to be able to be elected to parliament. You certainly won’t see someone coming from the American equivalent backround of a working class upbringing in Kallio/Berghäll becoming the country’s president.

JG—

not entirely true. Bill Clinton was very poor. But generally, that might be more true these days. Can’t say for sure.

Finnpundit—

“Chances are that their assertion will produce some kinds of results, some of which might be beneficial.”

Maybe I didn’t express my point clearly enough…

I’m not talking about poor people who express constructive thoughts about bettering things; albeit in a loud manner. Instead, I’m talking about the whole In Your Face / Give Me Respect Or I’ll Hit You And Pull Your Hair phenomenon. You know, that stuff on Jerry Springer. It’s very revealing.

My point was that apparently these people don’t feel like they get much respect from society. That’s why they act-out in these ways. And it’s not just on TV; I’ve witnessed it firsthand and can vouch for its rather widespread existance in the US.

Conversely, underclass people here don’t seem to have a need for this kind of expression. Maybe that’s because they already get respect from society, via a living wage, benefits, vacation etc?

In other words, they’re on closer par with everyone else—at least for the basics.

Conversely, underclass people here don’t seem to have a need for this kind of expression. Maybe that’s because they already get respect from society, via a living wage, benefits, vacation etc?

You’re joking, right? What about all those drunkards you see on the street that scream at people walking by to, “Go to Hell!”

I never understood why the police don’t lock these guys up for a few hours to dry them out.

“You’re joking, right? What about all those drunkards you see on the street that scream at people walking by to, “Go to Hell!” ”

Those are complete losers and incorrigibles. I don’t think there’s any great solution to that fine group.

I do agree with putting them in jail though.

“You’re joking, right? What about all those drunkards you see on the street that scream at people walking by to, “Go to Hell!””

I had half-written a comment along the same lines and decided not to post it. Lets just put them in the group of those unwilling to be trained.

Fred Fry:
Oh, she is a single mom who discounts the traditional family structure. Well perhaps she should they then find an alternative solution to her alternative lifestyle…

When daddy starts banging the secretary, it is mommy’s fault. She’s being punished for her sins. Gotta love Republican family values!

Kristian:
Maybe I didn’t express my point clearly enough…

You expressed it all too clearly. Whenever someone makes a valid point about a shortcoming in the American social model, Finnpundit starts screaming about anti-American bigotry. Wait until he finds the “K”-key on his keyboard again.

Kristian,

Your assumptions about American are just mind-boggling. And for the record, I’m not anti-Finland or mindlessly pro-American. I’ve got close family on both sides of the Atlantic.

Your statement that the “poor get no respect” just isn’t true. There are so many variables, so many millions of working poor, many, many immigrants who work their way from cleaning houses to owning their own businesses, PhDs who choose to drive taxis, etc. that to state the poor get no respect smacks of ignorance. No offense, it just sounds that way to me. And to use Jerry Springer as *evidence* that the poor aren’t treated well? Um, yeah.

No poor person has it easy, but the fact is that many people come here (US) for the opportunities we offer. Even Finns. Many, many Finns.

And as for diapers, well, maybe a person could plan in advance. But I love that I can pick up what I need when I need it, and not have some silly state regulation inconveniencing my life. I have a choice where to work, and if I don’t like it, I can go elsewhere. There are so many options here – community colleges with vocational degrees, doorways to higher universities, scholarships, etc. if I’m willing to work hard and have a goal.

This doesn’t negate what’s available in Finland, of course. But the knee-jerk anti-Americanism of Finns and Europeans gets old.

Fred Fry:
Well they should get off their asses and learn what they need to know to get a better job.

Ah, American prosperity theology at its best. Working in a low-skill job means that you are an evil person and deserve all the shit you get, as you are being punished for your sins. In order to improve your condition, you need to repent and join the Republican Party and maybe get a few select friends at the local country club.

Franklin you hit the nail. Welcome to the theocratic nation of usa land of the ignorant and moral cowards.

I think much of the so-called ‘guests’ on Springer are paid actors from local trailer parks.

I think much of the so-called ‘guests’ on Springer are paid actors from local trailer parks.

Why trailer parks exist in the first place, while the American poor all live in mansions, is a bit of a mystery to me.

Maybe it’s because everyone needs a day to recover from their hangovers?:D

Hey, I was just using Jerry Springer to illustrate my point; not as evidence

I do have experience living in the States, and one doesn’t have to look very far to find people who emulate those Springer ‘guests.’ That is, with obtrusive and aggressive behaviors, etc.

And the whole working poor phenomenon is hardly imagined, so I’ll stick to my original assessment in #44. Again, it’s based on my experience and observations. Not saying there aren’t exceptions though.

For most Europeans, these notions about America are based on what they see repeatedly on TV—both American and EU programs. They also read plenty about it. It can’t all be fabrication-via-selection to discredit the economic liberals. After all, there are economic liberals here too. And they know better than to point at America’s ‘working poor’ and say: You can have ‘opportunities’ just like them.

My suggestion to those who would like to see Finland and Europe adopt more liberal economic policies is this: Don’t try to sell the ‘American plan’ as a package deal; especially if it includes attempting to fuel Europe’s economic engine by squeezing the lowest strata of its working class.

It doesn’t resonate well here and, IMO, there’s little to be gained economically by cutting the cleaning lady’s monthly salary by 120-euros and shortening her summer vacation by two-weeks.

There are much better and less divisive ways to do it.

“When daddy starts banging the secretary, it is mommy’s fault. She’s being punished for her sins. Gotta love Republican family values!”

Excuse me, but if you look at my post, I ask, where is her husband. In this case, where is daddy. Make daddy pay, not the rest of us, who act more responsible.

“Ah, American prosperity theology at its best. Working in a low-skill job means that you are an evil person and deserve all the shit you get, as you are being punished for your sins. In order to improve your condition, you need to repent and join the Republican Party and maybe get a few select friends at the local country club.”

Hey now. Lets take a look at what the Finnish Government says about working in Finland:

Like the other Nordic countries, Finland is a welfare state. To put it simply, this means that nobody in Finland need go hungry. In order for it to be possible to safeguard welfare, the
work contribution of everyone is required. When a person is healthy and capable of working, he or she is expected to train for a profession and to maintain himself or herself and the family by
working. If a person is unemployed or too old to cope alone, society secures his or her basic needs.

Looks like my position is closer to the official line that yours. As I keep pointing out, the shipyard in Finland has training programs that lead directly to a good paying job. They can’t find enough people. What’s wrong with those jobs? Against wearing a boiler suit? Something against getting dirty? There are other opportunities, but just go and sit around complaining about how the work of unskilled labor is not appreciated. Perhaps that is because there is an oversupply of it.

I am finding this discussion a great eye-opener (as well as a number of other threads) since I am looking at purchasing a business in Finland.

I must be crazy to do such a thing.

#65
Fred—what can I say, except that we’re quite the marxists.

Unfortunate, but apparently true :-/

66. Oh no, Fred! Put such a notion right out of your head. It’s crazy to try to purchase a business in Finland.

I looked into it, when I was working for an international corporation looking to expand into the Nordic countries. Having seen the financials and inner workings of many small Finnish businesses was a major eye-opener. It’s just not worth it to invest in Finland, especially if you’re a small entrepreneur.

If there is a way for you to open a consultancy, then the options might be better. In that case, incorporate somewhere like Bermuda, and have your Bermuda company bill your Finnish clients for your services.

Be sure to check the details with a Finnish lawyer, but I’ve known of a couple of such cases, so it should work.

“Oh no, Fred! Put such a notion right out of your head. It’s crazy to try to purchase a business in Finland.”

Yes, well there is also the possibility of turning the system on it’s head and having fun with it. Then again the whole 22% VAT gives me the feeling like I have the mafia as a business partner, caring less if I make a profit, just as long as I keep paying them. Now if I make a 22% profit, then all of a sudden I am a gouger!

“incorporate somewhere like Bermuda, and have your Bermuda company bill your Finnish clients for your services.”
– Never, ever use a UK jurisdiction for an offshore corporation! The UK forced all their ‘dependencies’ to eliminate bearer shares as well as require the jurisdictions to collect the information on the beneficial owners in order to provide the info to their home countries upon request. (If someone does have an offshore corporation in one of the UK offshores, send me an email.)
– Instead of going fully offshore, you can try Estonia, which does not tax corporate profits until they have been distributed to the owners. Anyway, there is a good change that you will have to register the offshore company in Finland and at that point you are open to investigation. There were recent stories in the news about tax evasion in Finland.
– Beware of tax lawyers who claim that they can handle your funds. I deal with them and many are incompetant, they lie, and some also steal. What a corrupt industry. What kind of demand are there for that type of services in Finland? Let me manage your finances!
– As a foreigner in Finland, I plan to be very careful and make sure that everything is legit, right to the billing. It is all to easy for someone to report you. After all, too many people hate it when they see someone doing well, or even assuming that they are going well. (God forbid I make good use of some unskilled labor.)

There are some other good places to park your corp, like Curacao. One guy I know parked his funds in Malta, of all places (he says it’s one of the best). And then there’s Switzerland, Europe’s very one freerider, par excellence.

I have some trusted lawyers in Finland, who handle my affairs for me. And no, they do not handle my funds. But in understanding your possible exposure they are very worthwhile.

Fred Fry:
I am finding this discussion a great eye-opener (as well as a number of other threads) since I am looking at purchasing a business in Finland.

Yes, it is terrible. Employees use their company email accounts for personal email, some even use the company toilet without their employers’ express permission and there are even sodomites!

since I am looking at purchasing a business in Finland.
I must be crazy to do such a thing.

You could be utterly mad and purchase a business in Sweden… there the VAT is 25%, and taxes… yeah, wow…

looking at purchasing a business

Interesting. Both of my neighbords here in Maryland are bidding on businesses. Neither think the taxes will be a problem.

But then again, Tim73 will tell you we are headed to a depression, and will uncritically spout depressing economic nonsense on a regular basis.

Obviously some recent poll agrees with you

http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.shtml/arkistot/kotimaa/2006/09/468094

one of the reasons I want to go back to Finland is because stores close. Sundays everyone is off, people can truly meet. And be human beings instead of 24 hour robots. People need the money? Yeah and they’ll need more and more of it if the shops all open all week.
It’s the last stronghold against the consumer world. Yeah it doesn’t hurt having one special 24 hour store and a couple of 24hour convenience stores, and that’s what Finland has. I never had trouble finding an open grocery store in Finland and I lived in the middle of nowherema:ki