Finns’ prejudices against Estonians
For the first time in history, an Estonian company will be handling the road maintenance in a region of Finland…
The prospect of an Estonian company maintaining roads in the area has raised a good deal of curious discussion at the Finnish Road Administration and the Finnish Road Enterprise. Raekallio understands the curiosity.
“For decades, Finns have been businessmen in Estonia, and employees have been hired from there to Finland. We are used to being the managers and bosses. Now the setup is turning upside-down… Prejudices are so strong that many were unwilling to take jobs with the company.”
MORE: I don’t get this prejudice many Finns have towards Estonia, it’s as if Estonia is still part of the Soviet Union or something. The people are poor there, the place is dirty and unsafe, people are shifty, the vodka will make you go blind, there’s lots of hookers….bleh!
I think those Finns who dislike Estonia are quite jealous and see their country as a threat. They worker longer, harder, and for less. There are exciting changes and progress being made in Estonia, it’s an exciting place to be - meanwhile Finland has remained stagnant, following the status quo for what seems to be an eternity with no end in sight. Estonia has been the dorky kid school that everyone picked on, but that’s not the case anymore, and soon they’ll be picking on us!
A liberal sees another country progressing so rapidly and sees this as a very positive thing for their citizens and the rest of the globe. Others see another country progressing so rapidly and sees this as a threat their comfortable lifestyle. The welfare state is under attack and the weapons fired are hard-working and inexpensive labour, inexpensive goods, increased competition in the region, and possibilities of policy reform such as flat-tax.
Har, har: Old Viking like laughter. What do the Finish media report in the meantime, in what a black whole of time do they live? There are less than 100km between Helsinki and Tallinn.Just wondering. My next mobile is not a Nokia but a Samsung. Go East!
Comment by Jens-Olaf — Wed, Aug 30th, 2006 @ 10:01 pm
Now if they could only get the estonian company to maintain the roads in Estonia - That would be news!
Comment by Maarvin — Wed, Aug 30th, 2006 @ 10:43 pm
Yes. And if only the estonians could take care of their waste waters themselves so that we wouldn’t have to pay in order to prevent them from pouring their cesspools into the Baltic sea (like the Russians do).
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Aug 30th, 2006 @ 11:42 pm
After seeing Estonian roads you’d be prejudiced too
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:14 am
Yah guys, i was on the finish shores during the70s. My mother was pointing at the 80km Tallinn ahead she could not reach. Her husbund was a defector of GDR military. We looked from Finland again later in the 80s. You did your deals with the SU then. And collapsed with your economy after SU failed. I went through the streets of Estonia after a trip with a ferry with drunken Finish tourists, or were they business people in November 91? I saw the factories i Estonia , I saw the waste water treatment. The Estonians showed all to me. You Finish were suffering from your failed deals with the SU. I could see the left overs of the SU in Estonia. Yah. Maybe there are things to be done but are you Finish better off, once I admired your country.
Comment by Jens-Olaf — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:13 am
And once I got all the hatered one can get in Germany. To defend the Finish point of view. Cause they were in alliance with Nazi-Germany. I had to listen that I am an asshole. And now? I am fucked up. With Germany , With Finland it’s too much.
Comment by Jens-Olaf — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:28 am
Jobs… you guys have jobs.. how do I come over?
Comment by winter — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:52 am
That’s too bad, because Finns and Estonians are each others’ closest genetic and linguistic relatives, correct?
As a first-generation Finnish-American with a deep interest in Baltic-Finnic and otherwise Finno-Ugric folk culture/s, I have the utmost respect for the Estonian artists, intellectuals, and communities who’ve worked hard to preserve and carry on FU folk traditions, and who have reforged ties between the FU peoples in the postmodern era. Thank you, Maarahvas!
I once *speculated* here that perhaps some Finns subconsciously view Estonians as inferior because Estonians, as a newly modernizing and Westernized people, in a way represent where the Finns came from; in the eyes of “Western” society, Finns have only recently become a “respectable” and fully “Westernized” people. Maybe that’s totally off the mark, though….
Regardless, I am aware of many, many Finnish artists, scholars, and even my own Finnish family who have a deep interest in and respect for Estonians as a people.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:19 am
You guys try living in Finland or Estonia for a while - and *then* come bullshit.
Estonian businesses, especially subcontractors supplying manpower, have a bit of a reputation of not paying proper salaries and then “disappearing” when the workers show back at home demanding their salaries. Fact of life, not fiction.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 4:28 am
#9: Estonian businesses, especially subcontractors supplying manpower, have a bit of a reputation of not paying proper salaries and then “disappearing†when the workers show back at home demanding their salaries.
So you think Finns are discriminatory about working for Estonian “managers and bosses” on Finland’s road maintenance because they view Estonians as corrupt, and think they won’t get paid? Wouldn’t Finland’s governmental administration not haphazardly investigate and choose a reliable company?
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 5:29 am
The prejudgements toward Estonians date back the cold war era when they were part of communist Soviet Union. It is pretty similar as the Finnish attitude toward Russians. Greek attitude toward Turks, Anglo-American attitude toward Latin Americans, Japanese attitude toward Chinese, etc. etc.
It’s the illusion of public enemy.
Comment by EU Civil Servant — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 7:46 am
The article ends with:’Prejudices are so strong that many were unwilling to take jobs with the company.’ But it make no sense when you read it before, that Estonians enter Finland as bosses. Is it really because of the “disappearing†of subcontractors as #9 quoted ?
Comment by Jens-Olaf — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 9:35 am
Aboy - Well…all the cruise ships dump their sewage into the Baltic/Gulf of Finland, too…including the Finnish ships. And all the fertilizer from the farms, etc. Everyone pollutes the water and it’s a little late given how dead the sea is these days.
Comment by hfb — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 9:47 am
Aboy - Well…all the cruise ships dump their sewage into the Baltic/Gulf of Finland, too…including the Finnish ships. And all the fertilizer from the farms, etc. Everyone pollutes the water and it’s a little late given how dead the sea is these days.
Comment by hfb — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 9:47 am
http://2ch.ru/b/src/1156853485142.jpg
Nice Finnish flag in the shower.
Comment by Alex — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 10:08 am
#4, But is Finnish road condition better? You should go to Europe(especially closer Sweden) to see how they maintain their roads.
Comment by funny — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 10:24 am
#8, caught the point. Finns are afraid of Estonians because Estonians show their origin.
Comment by funny — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 10:26 am
Wouldn’t Finland’s governmental administration not haphazardly investigate and choose a reliable company?
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 10:50 am
#4, But is Finnish road condition better? You should go to Europe(especially closer Sweden) to see how they maintain their roads
It isn’t a Swedish company maintaining the roads, now is it?
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 10:52 am
#19,
Then why is the Finnish road condition so poor when the Swedish road is much better? Both countries have similar climates and population density.
Comment by funny — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 10:54 am
So you think Finns are discriminatory about working for Estonian “managers and bosses†on Finland’s road maintenance because they view Estonians as corrupt, and think they won’t get paid?
Ask the Estonian guys - they won’t work for the Estonian companies as they say they are a bunch of swindlers.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 10:56 am
hfb, I’m mostly talking now about communal waste waters. Finnish people clean their waste waters efficiently with the latest techonology. The Estonians and Russians both needed finnish funding to build their waste treatment facilities. A couple of years ago there was this huge pool of shit on the northern coast of Estonia that threatened to tilt over to the Baltic sea. Guess who came to the rescue? Yes, the finns did.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 11:09 am
(And by the way the Russians still let most of their waste go into the sea unprocessed. That’s really something when you remember that the city of St.Peterspburg contains the same amount of people that the whole of Finland does.)
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 11:13 am
Those waste spills are a problem along with France, Portugal, Greece and Italy. All of which has been supeaned to the EU court because of inadequate harbour waste management systems. There is also a lot of shit from WWII and cold war decades, all kinds of war materials and industrial waste at the bottom. Every single nation did use the sea as their private junkyard for decades just like the Mediterranean countries.
Numbers are also quite huge, there is about 1800 ships every day sailing on the Baltic sea and at least 200 000 passengers. Especially cargo ships do not give a shit about their shit and on top of that, they sometimes release waste oil to the sea.
Comment by tim73 — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 11:17 am
You should study the poverty statistics of Estonia, Phil.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 11:40 am
“Why are Finns still prejudices?”
you people keep making universal human behaviour sound like exclusively being Finnish one. It’s natural if you’re living in Finland, but a little perspective, please.
Comment by Perttu — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 11:46 am
the Russians still let most of their waste go into the sea unprocessed
Not anymore. St Petersburg drains “only” one third of its shit straight into the sea. Yeah, we built a sewage plant there. Then again most of the sewage in little shitholes like Viipuri/Vyborg flows right into the sea. Have to be gald that Russia took over there in 1940. But what can you expect? It’s a poor third-world country. It’s not long ago when Finland did the same. And even today Finnish farmers let their manure pollute the sea. Clean your own house … and so forth.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 11:51 am
“Clean your own house … and so forth.”
Yeah, that’s what we’re trying to do. Funny though how we are obliged to clean up after everyone else as well. As if they couldn’t do it themselves if they wanted.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
#27
Russia is a 3rd world country???
If there are no social benefits - still doesn’t mean that Russia is a 3rd world country. Technologically it’s much more developed than many european countries.
They simply don’t care about Baltic sea(or any other) and dump everything there, but it still doesn’t mean they have no money for building a plant there.
It’s simply popular to criticize Russia in Finland and people like to read about it in newspappers.
How about global warming? Why don’t you speak and write about US who don’t sign convention? Afraid of BIG BRO?
Comment by Belino — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:24 pm
Maybe we should supply Russia and Estonia with butt plugs until this sewage issue gets resolved.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:26 pm
This is a real fun. Finland was the poorest country in the neighborhood. And still one of the poorest country in EU. (Standard of living in Greece for example is much better than in Finland.) Then they say that they can’t go with their brother country Estonia because Estonia is poor. A real funny joke.
Comment by funny — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:30 pm
@31 “Finland was the poorest country in the neighborhood. And still one of the poorest country in EU. (Standard of living in Greece for example is much better than in Finland.)”
HAHAHAHA
Yeah right…you Greeks better be careful of Turkey, ’cause they certainly will kick your ass
Comment by bill — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:40 pm
Wow…its been a real Euro-bitchin’ contest out here, of late
Comment by Anon — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:53 pm
Russia is a 3rd world country???
Yeah, kind of. The idea with these “worlds” was that there was the “first world” wich was the rich countries. Then there were the poor countries of the “third-world”. The sosialistic countries were supposed to be the “second world”. But now when they don’t exsist anymore I’d put Russia in the “third class” rather than the first. They are very poor - and even poorer without the oil. A classic example of a non-developed country, don’t you agree?
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
And the apprentice became the master. For me, Estonia is more likely an interesting place to invest, rather than a threat. We are like brothers anyway.
Comment by rajuilma — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:03 pm
Everyone tells me that Moscow is very advanced–on par with much of Europe. But, aside from Moscow and maybe a few other major cities, I think that much of Russia’s population lives in primitive conditions.
That’s based on some extensive travel through eastern Europe. My colleagues who travel to Russia, tell me to multiply eastern European poverty by several fold. To me, that’s Third World -ish.
I can see why environment just isn’t a priority.
But then there are countries like Somalia…
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:07 pm
It’s simply popular to criticize Russia in Finland and people like to read about it in newspappers.
Well thats just taking back all the 1970’s and 1980’s we had to keep the buttplug in the press. If there had been such smog as now back in 1976, it definitely would have not been from USSR, maybe from outer space.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:11 pm
You should study the poverty statistics of Estonia, Phil.
Yeah, then compare it to the poverty statistics of Estonia 10 years ago and look at the change.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
Just to expound on poverty in eastern Europe and presumably Russia…
It means that maybe you’ve got a satellite dish in your window. But, you heat with coal briquette stoves in each room; roads and sidewalks haven’t been resurfaced since 1945; buildings are heavily deteriorated with leaky rooves and exposed wiring; only one house in your neighborhood is painted (maybe a bright pastel); you are missing some teeth and maybe an appendage; your wardrobe consists of left over Adidas sport suits from 1989 (remember those?); you wear regular shoes with those sport suits; your car is a 25-year-old Lada that barely runs…
And getting parts to repair your car is even more expensive than here in Finland !
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:20 pm
“A liberal sees another country progressing so rapidly and sees this as a very positive thing for their citizens and the rest of the globe. Others see another country progressing so rapidly and sees this as a threat their comfortable lifestyle.”
The U.S. and China, anyone?
I sometimes feel that those who come to praise Estonia so fulsomely ought really to go beyond the shiny skyscrapers of Tallinn and see just how much progress has been made in Narva or Viljandi. Yes, sure they are moving fast, but a lot of people have missed the train.
Comment by Est est est! — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 1:52 pm
funny wrote:
“Finland was the poorest country in the neighborhood. And still one of the poorest country in EU. (Standard of living in Greece for example is much better than in Finland.)”
You should really be more creative in making up your stories. Now you’re just making yourself look very silly with your blatant lies. Finland is one of the richest countries in the world and certainly in Europe.
The world:
http://www.aneki.com/richest.html
http://www.aneki.com/expensive.html
Europe:
http://www.aneki.com/europe_richest.html
Phil wrote:
“Yeah, then compare it to the poverty statistics of Estonia 10 years ago and look at the change.”
You know, it’s not that hard to improve your living standards by even 200% if your starting level is one of the lowest in the world. check the baseline and you’ll get a more accurate perspective.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
Ã…boy,
Actually those figures are somewhat old. Finland has moved even higher in the latest figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
Finland has had better growth in GDP (PPP) per capita than other countries in general.
Also Indexmundi provides some nice tools to do comparisons from CIA Factbook:
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=en&c=fi&c=sw&c=us&v=67
Phil,
I don’t really understand where your “Finland is stagnant” comments stem from. All the figures, statistics and studies have indicated that Finland is doing pretty well and definitely not stagnant. What exactly do you base your assumptions on?
Comment by Zark — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:21 pm
Yes, sure they are moving fast, but a lot of people have missed the train.
It’s been what, 15 years? Have any other country ever progressed so quickly? I’d reckon these things take time. At least they didn’t have a civil war immediately after they gained their independence.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:23 pm
You know, it’s not that hard to improve your living standards by even 200% if your starting level is one of the lowest in the world.
Compare Estonia to the other former-communist states.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
I don’t really understand where your “Finland is stagnant†comments stem from.
Stagant isn’t the proper word because it’s also economics-speak, and that’s not what I mean. I’m talking about change and reform, it’s just stagnant. People believe in the status quo, nothing will change for the better until there’s a real catastrophe.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
Phil wrote:
“At least they didn’t have a civil war immediately after they gained their independence.”
No but one could argue that there’s a seed for one there, the same way there’s one in Latvia. What I’m speaking of is of course the fact that people of russian descent are discriminated against in the Baltic states. It causes not only problems with their former master, Russia, but also inside friction in these countries between the different ethnic groups.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
Compare Estonia to the other former-communist states.
Like Latvia, you mean? It’s pretty surprising actually that Estonia has not done better considering all the money Finns have carried over there. Anyway, Estonia can’t cope in the future without making some pretty radical reforms, better benefits for students in particular. I predict that Estonia is a Nordic-style welfare state in, hmmm, 10-15 years. The process has after all already started.
Comment by tomia — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:43 pm
“Compare Estonia to the other former-communist states.”
Well it depends how you look at it. GDPs grow quickly in pretty much all of them.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=en&c=hu&c=lg&c=lh&v=27&v=67&v=74
Of these Hungary is the only country in this set to have positive inflow of people, quite a few people have been emigrating away from Estonia & Latvia.
“Stagant isn’t the proper word because it’s also economics-speak, and that’s not what I mean. I’m talking about change and reform, it’s just stagnant.”
Well, change for the sake of change? There is a lot of talk about how to tackle upcomign challenges for Finnish economy and population… I really haven’t seen anything stagnant about that either.
Comment by Zark — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:44 pm
I predict that Estonia is a Nordic-style welfare state in, hmmm, 10-15 years.
I think you’re right. The liberals do a superb job of getting the economy and infrastructure up to par, then the left can come in and squander it all.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:45 pm
nothing will change for the better until there’s a real catastrophe.
Like in the early 90s, you mean, when Finland went through a depression worse than in any wealthy nation since the WWII?
Why can’t you just admit that this fucking country is working very well, and will be in all likelyhood in the future. Yeah I know, because of your ideology you just can’t believe it, it’s impossible, it _must_ be impossible!!! If not, there’s something wrong with my ideology. And that can’t be!!!
It’s sad how ideologies make people blind.
Comment by tomia — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:50 pm
Phil wrote (in post 37):
“Yeah, then compare it to the poverty statistics of Estonia 10 years ago and look at the change.”
Not that much has changed, really. Officially of course there are now more well-off people there than back then and probably the same amount of not-that-poor people but maybe even more people are now on the lowest steps of the society actually. Nobody’s interested in taking care of the unfortunate because they’re all too busy making money. Besides, anything that has the word “social” in it is literally a red cloth to the Estonians nowadays.
For understandable reasons they’ve become somewhat allergic to any form of socialism, be it social democracy or whatever. It’s like a pendulum: They were fixed at the extreme left end before and when they were cut free they swung all they to the extreme right. It’ll take some time for them to find a balance, I presume.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:52 pm
There is a lot of talk about how to tackle upcomign challenges for Finnish economy and population…
Yes, lots of talk, little action.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
[Edit post 50: "..they swung all the way to the extreme right."]
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
“Yes, lots of talk, little action. ”
After pressing submit I knew that is what you are going to answer. There is constant action and discussion. Finnish government can be slow at times, but stagnant it isn’t.
Comment by Zark — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
I think Estonia and the other Baltics will sooner adopt a central European-style economy and society. That’s because their major trading partner will be Germany. Another reason is due to their geographic location; they’re on the main continent and have more contact with central Europeans.
I’ve said it before: The Baltics will leave the Nordics in the dust over the next 50-years. They’re business-minded, relatively honest and hard working.
By the way, like central Europe and Finland, the Baltics already have free education, public healthcare and pensions. They’re not on-par with western Europe yet, but that’s understandable considering the long path they’ve had.
In any case, I doubt they’ll shoot themselves in the foot by adopting a Nordic-style economic system. These countries have histories of dynamic trade activity during the Hansiatic times and earlier. I don’t think the nanny-state mentality fits their psyche.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:20 pm
“Then why is the Finnish road condition so poor when the Swedish road is much better? Both countries have similar climates and population density”
Sweden spends bucket loads of kronor on maintaining roads, helps to put people in jobs. In fact, some towns in Norrland look like they have recently held a roundabout building competition with countless roundabout at junctions with virtually no trafic. It’s very strange.
Comment by JG — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:26 pm
I don’t think the nanny-state mentality fits their psyche.
Interesting. Why do you think the nanny-state fits the Finns’ psyche but not the Estonian’s?
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
[Question: What happened to the original post number 50? (If it appears magically after this post then forget this question.)]
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
helps to put people in jobs
Helps to put people out from having car accidents too I’d reckon.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
[Question: What happened to the original post number 50? (If it appears magically after this post then forget this question.)]
Maybe got caught in my SPAM-guard? I’ll check.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
In any case, I doubt they’ll shoot themselves in the foot by adopting a Nordic-style economic system. These countries have histories of dynamic trade activity during the Hansiatic times and earlier. I don’t think the nanny-state mentality fits their psyche.
Ah, the “_Baltic_ Hanseatic league”.
Anyway, if the Estonians want to take a look at a country that changed from a third-world shithole to one of the richest countries in the word at a world-record pace (or close), in what direction you think they should look? I’m pretty sure the Estonians are clever enough to know. Then again, it’s true that Finland was different, it “made it” with forest industry to begin with. That’s luxury the Estonians don’t have.
Comment by tomia — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
#15: http://www.kuvaton.com/kuvei/taynna_saksalaisia.jpg
Comment by m — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
IMO, it’s the inherent racism towards anything that remotely resembles or was once attached to Russia.
Comment by gopha — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
Tomia—
“Ah, the “_Baltic_ Hanseatic leagueâ€Â. ”
I know, but I’ve always considered Finland to be more of a trading outpost, rather than a true center. Sure, we had our little fur business with Russia, via Viipuri, but I don’t see us as bonafide enerprisers, in a pan-northern-European sense.
But Tallinn was actually a Hanse city and played an important role in Europe. That’s mainly due to geography and population density, I guess.
Phil—
As to why the Finnish nanny-state mentality… That’s really hard to pinpoint. On one hand, having natural resources (timber, as Tomia mentioned) might be a cause. One would have to assume that Sweden had the same benefit then, too. Norway has oil. Not sure what Denmark has…
Or maybe it’s just a northern thing. If you leave someone outside overnight, they’ll be a popsicle in the morning. Of course, that rationalle is a historic one, before modern heating…
Or maybe the isolation. No contact with others therefore a dynamic economy never formed. Sweden, Norway and Finland were both poor 50-years-ago. In fact, Finland was still poor when I was a child. Sweden has an imperialistic history, but I don’t think they had much contact on their home soil. Same with Norway…
I can’t profess to say that any of these is the ‘real’ reason for the Nordic welfare mentality. Difficult to say for sure. I think it’ll relax as people become more prosperous and less isolated due to technology. But maybe not completely. I suppose there’s still a ideals-driven nature to some of it.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
#61
Tomia–
“Anyway, if the Estonians want to take a look at a country that changed from a third-world shithole to one of the richest countries in the word at a world-record pace (or close), in what direction you think they should look? I’m pretty sure the Estonians are clever enough to know.”
Sure, they might look our way, but their actual contacts will be with central Europe. I don’t think we’ll have the number of people or volume of business to compete for Estonia’s attention. But in fairness to your statement, lots of countries ARE looking our way. And some might even cherry-pick a few of our ideas for themselves.
Of course, we can’t assume that Finland will remain ‘as is’ in the future. I see more of a normalization in Europe, rather than a tendency toward opposite ends of radical extremes. That means the Nordics will begin to resemble central Europe; and maybe central Europe will look at some of our methods.
And maybe the Baltics will fall somewhere within that squeeze?
Overall though, considering that Russia is kaput, I think the Baltics will be a good influence on Finland. Hopefully, as trading partners, they’ll help us to generate the economies of scale that we need for better lives.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 5:39 pm
Hmm, I promised to stay away for awhile but what the hell, one more for the road. I am married with an Estonian and even before my special connection with the country I was interested in it. We just don’t have any understanding in Finland what Estonians have gone through. We managed to stop the Red Army in the summer of 1944 and they didn’t in the summer of 1940. As a concequence there were awful massacres (directed at the various national elites) and the complete destruction of the economy and colonization by hundreds of thousands of Russian immigrants. That mainly is the difference between Estonia and Finland - we are a normal, free Western country, and they had their freedom raped by Stalin. No comparison. So, naturally our media critizes them for not being Sweden - it is so easy…
Comment by mjr — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
Uuuh… Where did this come from. “Dislike of Estonians”???
I totally admire the Estonians and I don’t know anyone who dislikes Estonians.
Finns don’t travel in great numbers to Estonia and spend money because they dislike them you know…
Comment by Mikael — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
I don’t “dislike” people stopping me in the street asking for a donation for greenpeace, but I’m not trusting them with my money either
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 6:47 pm
The current managerial-level Estonians have grown up in the Nordic business model. Finland and Sweden are the two main investors in that country. They own pretty much everything, except for the energy industry. So Estonians are as much part of Nordic business culture as Finns are in this regard.
Estonia is a very young country. Much of Estonian agovernment and business is run by men and women under 40 years of age. The foreign minister is 32. The last prime minister was 39 when he resigned. You aren’t dealing with homo sovieticus in most instances, although there is still some of that left.
I think Finns are generally seen as xenophobic and overly cautious in Estonia - which is funny because Estonians are as xenophobic as they come. But I have heard stories of Estonians that have moved to Finland and have lived there for decades and speak Finnish fluently and have never been accepted because they are still “the outsider.”
It’s lame when you consider that Estonians and Finns really are cousins (they share significant chunks of the same genetic heritage). Estonians just got a bit more German while Finns got a bit more Sami.
Comment by giustino — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 6:52 pm
Much of Estonian agovernment and business is run by men and women under 40 years of age. The foreign minister is 32. The last prime minister was 39 when he resigned. You aren’t dealing with homo sovieticus in most instances, although there is still some of that left.
Yes, and kids as managers tend to be the most inconsiderate. It has even been researched.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 8:27 pm
When you are 26, like me, 39 is not a “kid.”
Comment by giustino — Thu, Aug 31st, 2006 @ 11:06 pm
#70 This is a statement about age of politicians but that has NOTHING to do with the experiences in the Baltics over the last decade. Remembering Repse who was 20+ old and was one of the main actors to get real money in Latvia. Against the advice of the old boys from Western Europe, IMF. etc..
In other former SU countries the old boys were the Colchos boys. Do u know what happened when they took over the government? I don’t give an answer, it is too obvious.
Comment by Jens-Olaf — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 10:38 am
If there are negative feelings about Estonia and the Estonians in Finland, I am not privy to it. What I am sure is that, everybody I know loves the country and her people and marvel the magnificent strides they have taken since the independence. We are cousins but try to find better looking women in Finland than Estonia! Can you spell -MISSION IMPOSSIBLE. Quite frankly, an Estonian is a Finn to me and I am Estonian.
Comment by Petteri — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 11:24 am
You’re being somewhat unrealistic in your “Brotherly Love”-thinking, Petteri. The Estonians certainly do not regard themselves as Finns, nor do the Finns see themselves as Estonians. The Estonians that I’ve had the privilege of getting acquainted with have been quite proud of their nationality, to the point of actually being a bit arrogant and snotty towards Finland and the Finns.
It could be reactionary behaviour, of course. I mean, some Finnish people have been going to Estonia for years to flaunt their money and to behave badly in drunken stupor. Maybe that’s one of the reasons that so many Estonians have this resentful and stuck-up attitude towards Finns.
Or maybe it’s just that the little brother is getting to his teen years and is rebelling against the big brother.
Comment by Ã…boy — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 1:06 pm
“That’s too bad, because Finns and Estonians are each others’ closest genetic and linguistic relatives, correct?”
The closest genetic relatives to Finns can be found in Flanders
near Belgium and Holland.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
#75, so you want to be an European denying your reality?
Come on and wake up…
Comment by funny — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
O.k. maybe it’s not directly connected to the prejudices of Fins and Estonians. But this brother talk, it is not in sports among the two countries. I mean on the internet. All the time when a Baltic competitor gets a medal then u can see the gratulation exchange between Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, ‘gratulation brothers’, ‘thanks for support’(on the Delfi portals) But it happens rarily with the Finns and Estonians.
Comment by Jens-Olaf — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
#77
I dunno. Maybe they have some left-over bonds from Soviet times and now see themselves as underdogs—once again, with a common struggle. Plus, they probably all belonged to Communist Youth organizations as children, so they have some common personal history there too.
Most likely, these organizations were mandatory though. For the most part, the Baltics hated the Russians. I think that’s one reason why Finns like and respect Estonians. If Estonians had been pro-Soviet instead of anti-, then maybe Finns would see them less favorably…but still buy cheap booze from them
Insofar as Finns not swapping best wishes with Estonians at sporting events (according to Jens-Olaf), I can only ask: Do Finns display special camaraderie with any other nation ?
I could be wrong, but I don’t think we do. I guess it’s kind of our cold-fish way. Conversely, Estonians probably display warmth easier—maybe that’s their central European influence.
Who knows though, maybe shots of Vodka are exchanged later
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 11:16 pm
Yes they work for less, they shouldn’t, no one should, but they do, like many others. Why do you think they got the contract, duh.
Comment by Keksi — Fri, Sep 1st, 2006 @ 11:58 pm
Again, but here I am posting it now. 20 Dollar , that was the average wage monthly in Estonia in 91/92. Now it is about 1000 or so. You can correct me.
Comment by Jens-Olaf — Sat, Sep 2nd, 2006 @ 12:19 am
The closest genetic relatives to Finns can be found in Flanders
near Belgium and Holland.
That is NOT totally accurate.
First of all, Estonians and other Finno-Ugrics were not included in this study.
Secondly, those results ONLY refer to the mtDNA, not the Y-DNA. Studies that include Estonians show that Finns, Flemish, AND Estonians, other Baltic Sea peoples, and their surrounding neighbors ALL share an MtDNA haplogroup - i.e., a common Paleolithic female ancestor.
mtDNA goes back A LOT farther than Y-DNA sequences do, so what that means is that these peoples share a common FEMALE ancestor many, many thousands of years ago from an ice age refugia during the Paleolithic era.
So while these peoples typically share an *mtDNA* haplogroup, because the time scale is SO large some are genetically closer than others within the group. Studies that include Estonians do in fact show that the Finno-Baltic peoples are more closely (i.e., recently) related than, say, the Finns and the Flemish on the mtDNA line.
Now, Y-DNA sequences (male ancestor) have a much more recent time span mtDNA does. For the most part, the Uralic or Finno-Ugric, as well as the IE-Baltics, peoples share a common *male* ancestor that is NOT shared with the Flemish, etc. The Y-chromosome haplogroup N is for the most part known only among the Uralic peoples (as well as Balts and non-Uralic Siberians), and thus shows a much more recent connection between them.
In addition to genetic connections, the Finno-Baltic peoples, for the greater part, share a common ancient (before Christianization and colonization) culture, religion, material cultures, etc. This is not to say that other connections and influences didn’t exist, but that Finno-Baltics shared a culture that was in many ways very different from their proto- and Germanic-speaking neighbors for a very long time.
We’re all related, but Finns and Estonians are very much closely connected in many ways.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Sep 2nd, 2006 @ 12:36 am
Estonia’s experimentation with alternative economic models continues to pose a threat to the Finnish welfare state. Suffice it to say that Finland will continue to skew its commentary regarding Estonia in ways that will always find fault. If that doesn’t work, it resorts to the standard Finnish Kommie Klutz form of criticism: it predicts a gloomy future that is sure to come just around the corner.
Comment by Finnpundit — Sat, Sep 2nd, 2006 @ 2:01 am
Like a punishment from the gods, I had to follow Finnpundit’s drivel. Ok, so, I failed to attend the church the past twenty years but your punishment is too severe.
Aboy, you are one of my favorite commentators but I still insist that I love Estonians even more than turkulaisia. They are to me like an alian civilization to a astronomer - I am not alone after all.
Comment by Petteri — Sat, Sep 2nd, 2006 @ 8:32 am
You’re free to love whoever you want, Petteri. And thanks for the compliment.
Actually, at least in the linguistic sense it might be that people from the Finland proper are very close to Estonians. Some people say that the southwestern Finns speak in dialects that are closer to estonian than the dialects of finnish spoken in the eastern Finland.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sat, Sep 2nd, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
Northern Estonian sounds much more like Finnish than southern Estonian. They have the ‘lilt’ in their talk - while southern Estonian is very flat.
I have been trying to learn to speak like the northern Estonians because it is more fun, and the southern Estonian men all have these bassy voices, which I can’t emulate (and have a hard time understanding).
But I got a CD from a group called Hedningarna called “Karelia Visa” and I have to say that even with a basic knowledge of Estonian I could understand some of the Karelian lyrics. The bottom line - they are all pretty similar languages.
When I sit behind a Finn on a plane it’s like parts of their dialogues are totally understandable and then they go off into parts I don’t understand. And I am an American learning Estonian as a second language.
Comment by Giustino — Sat, Sep 2nd, 2006 @ 6:37 pm
So, just out of curiosity - do you find it easy to find learning materials?
BTW don’t learn to drive like the Estonians…
(Have you seen last year’s numbers? Really scary traffic death statistics)
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Sep 2nd, 2006 @ 9:55 pm
There are plenty of books around for learning Estonian. But what you really need to do is just use your language - which is something I have an opportunity to do since I am married to one of them (and when you marry one, you marry the whole country)…Estonians are quite keen on teaching people their language. They expect you to learn it. After all those years of having big fat Russia sitting on them, they have emerged like linguistic diamonds.
The best way I learn outside of that is just reading the newspapers and watching programs and movies in Estonian…
read postimees - http://www.postimees.ee - it’s a good newspaper.
Comment by Giustino — Sun, Sep 3rd, 2006 @ 8:05 am
Well, even the finns themselves are not saved from their own prejudices. When Karelia was evacuated, the evacuees were called ‘ryssä’ (derogatory term for a russian) in the western parts of the country. Heck, the same people, who gave the nation the Kalevala, inspiration for the golden age of the finnish arts and who are patriotic to the core.
Dammit, I’m a grandson of one Karelian “ryssä” and one Estonian. It is not costing me a single cent, if the Estonians do well. More power to them, if they manage to show that the Nordic model is not the end of history, even at these latitudes.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sun, Sep 3rd, 2006 @ 12:45 pm
I agree Antti. Estonia is only a positive influence on the Nordics. By the way, does anyone know what happened about Finland’s wining to the EU about raising alcohol taxes in the rest of Europe?
You know, so all Europeans can pay high prices for Finland’s ‘alcohol problem.’ The ‘problem’ of course being that Finns can go to Estonia for cheaper liquor.
http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=13058&group=Politics
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Sun, Sep 3rd, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
Estonia has got a bigger “alcohol problem” with smuggled in stuff - that makes people blind - so they have no incentive whatsoever to raise their alcohol tax, as then the salaviin would be even more desirable. Forged liquor is also a problem so now they have implemented a new sticker lable system so that they can track “legal” alcohol from “illegal”… So I don’t think the Finns have any “problem” with alcohol - only when it runs out…
Comment by Hank W. — Mon, Sep 4th, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
You know, so all Europeans can pay high prices for Finland’s ‘alcohol problem.’
The tax should be abolished altogether and let the problem take care of itself.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Sep 5th, 2006 @ 12:25 am
The pros and cons of the Estonian model will be more evident if and when their standard of living starts approaching the other Nordic countries, so that cheap labour no longer offers competitive advantage. This is also when it will get interesting.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Sep 5th, 2006 @ 1:00 am
The pros and cons of the Estonian model will be more evident if and when their standard of living starts approaching the other Nordic countries, so that cheap labour no longer offers competitive advantage. This is also when it will get interesting.
Estonia does offer social services. There is this myth (Phil buys it too) that Estonia is some sort of neoliberal oasis. It’s false. Estonians (mostly) don’t have to pay for higher education (unlike in the US where ’state’ colleges are still expensive as hell), and Estonians (mostly) don’t have to pay for healthcare (although dental care sadly is not covered).
Estonians get a lot of benefits that the social welfare states also offer their citizens.
That being said, Estonia was dirt poor in 1991. Many parts of the country still are quite poor. The idea of instituting a ‘Nordic’ social welfare model in Estonia in 1991 would have been just plain DUMB.
As one wise man once said, you can’t redistribute wealth if you don’t have any.
Comment by Giustino — Tue, Sep 5th, 2006 @ 7:37 am
There is this myth (Phil buys it too) that Estonia is some sort of neoliberal oasis. It’s false.
Indeed. For example child labor is forbidden.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Sep 5th, 2006 @ 12:30 pm
#93
I think they’ll get things like dental care resolved. And I’m pretty sure Estonia is committed to providing a full range of basic services for its entire population. It’s not designed as an everyone-for-themselves system.
The only real difference is in the way it’s financing these services—low tax rates which spur economic growth and thereby create greater overall tax revenue.
Also, if Estonia has the same tiered healthcare system that’s been adopted by most of its eastern neighbors, then revenue from its private component will help fund the public component. I think all of these countries determined that it was the only way to assure the best healthcare for everyone.
The same argument applies for pensions.
It’s a balancing act though. If corporate special interests have opportunities to hook-into Estonia’s political system, then public services might suffer. I don’t think it’s likely though, due to the coalition government system that’s in place.
By virtue, the fragmentation of coalition systems keep these things in-check. And so do the voters.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Sep 5th, 2006 @ 1:25 pm
I am a third generation American Finn who lived in Finland for a year (Tapiola)in 1962-63. I can say that I was very impressed with Finland at that time. My family in Finland is Swedish speaking (Jakobstad area) and Finnish speaking (Kangasniemi). You are writing of prejudice regarding the Estonians, and I would like to communicate that when the Finland-Swedes arrived here in the USA in the 1880s, thet were rejected by the “real” Swedes who considered them to be inferior. The Finland-Swedes were even denied membership in the Swedish Lutheran churches here. Too bad that when the Finnish speakers arrived from Finland in the 1900s, they too rejected the Finland-Swedes as being too arrogant to learn Finnish. I may say that my Finnish-speaking Grandfather never spoke English; whereas, my Swedish-speaking Great-grandfather spoke excellent English, as well as Swedish and some Finnish. One is not too far from stones being thrown.
Comment by Don Savolainen — Wed, Sep 20th, 2006 @ 5:55 am
Wow, don´t know how I got to this website (the discussion is kind of old too, damn) but I must say that I felt a bit amazed when I read the last post by Don Savolainen being from swedish-speaking finn ancestry. And from Jakobstad of all places since it´s my hometown actually and yes I´m a swedish speaking finn myself, bilingual though(finnish speaking dad).
A bit sad that swedish speaking finns had to go through that in USA, not being accepted I mean. Here in Finland, Swedish speaking Finns are accustomed to hear from time to time words like “Hurri” and in Sweden we hear “finnjävel”. But it really isn´t anything to feel hurt by, since the majority of Finns and Swedes are good and friendly people.
Anyways regarding Estonia, I´ve never disliked Estonians in any way and I really don´t see them as a threat. I see Estonia´s rapid economic growth as an opportunity which we in Finland also can benefit from.
Comment by Robin (from Jakobstad) — Sat, Mar 3rd, 2007 @ 5:20 am