Many Finns Sceptical of Evolution
Wow, I need to remember this statistic the next time someone reminds me of America’s religious fanaticism. The difference however, one-third of Finns don’t wish to push their nutty theories on others in public schools…
A surprising number of Finns are sceptical of the theory of evolution, according to a study by Science magazine. A third of Finns do not believe Darwin’s theory that all animals descended from a common organism, and that they adapted to changing environments to create new species. Around ten percent were not sure what to believe.
Finnish scepticism far exceeds other Nordic countries. In Denmark and Sweden, less than 15 percent rejected evolution, in Iceland, less than ten percent. Out of 34 countries studied for the survey, Finland falls 17th in the number of sceptics.
My lukio biology teacher for one! It must be said however, that she didn’t omit the evolution theory in her teaching, but we got more than enough of stories about clocks on the beach etc. (Heck, if not clock, there was a natural nuclear fission reactor “operating” some couple billion years ago in area, that is now Oklo in Gabon)
I think there are plenty older geezers in Finland, who were exposed more to religion, than science in their school years.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 3:36 pm
Religious fanaticism and politics is an interesting topic. I read a post at a Christian blog on why this US Christian blogger is not into Christian politics:
http://helives.blogspot.com/2006/08/politics-its-not-for-me.html
US Christians usually take their cue from what Jesus would’ve done. So the blogger seems to reason that since Jesus wasn’t into politics and didn’t tell his followers to go into politics, it’s not for him.
That was actually a very common way of thinking in America decades ago. The blogger behind the He Lives blog also claims that “the modern idea of the separation of church and state was championed by Christians to prevent their abuse at the hands of states, precisely at a time when the states in question were effectively Christian theocracies.”
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
Skeptic people are not fanatic. Fanatics have quite a clear point of view.
Comment by EU-civil servant — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 4:08 pm
Aliens did it. I was abducted by Aliens, and can prove it….
Note to self: Self Medication is good.
Comment by winter — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
Several reporters have tried to reproduce the result or at least get some kind of backing for it by interviewing people. However, it seems that everybody is equally surprised of the result. It makes one wonder if there could have been an error in survey sampling or, as sometimes is the case in international surveys, could the translation of the questions have been ambiguous or biased? Just wondering.
On the other hand, I do know some nutcases who belong to THAT third of the population. Some of them are actually members of some strange movements exported from USA…
Comment by Tom — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 4:46 pm
John D. Morris is the President of the anti-evolutionist Institute for Creation Research. He has a series of articles called “Back to Genesis” at his website. He discusses the possibility of Darwin renouncing evolutionism at his deathbed. Dr. Morris admits that such a rumor is accepted as an “urban myth”, yet he hopes that Darwin would have rejected his theory:
“A Christian can only hope that the seeds planted earlier took root in the end, and that he did place his faith in Christ before he died.”
Dr. Morris ends his article with a typical “There is no joy for a Christian if anyone, even a lifelong opponent of the cross, slips into a Christless eternity.”
http://icr.org/article/2834/
Some people are still concerned for the soul of Charles Darwin…
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 5:03 pm
At the Institute of Creation Research it is possible to complete a master’s degree in science. The scientific premise for the teaching for such a degree is (courses are available online btw.) as stated by Patti Nason, Ph.D.: “All the courses in the program approach the content the same way ICR’s researchers approach the study of origins - if an idea is contrary to God’s Word, it is false.”
http://icr.org/news/64/
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 5:11 pm
This church website comments the World Values Survey of 1995-1996:
http://www.evl.fi/kkh/ktk/norden.htm
“One fifth of all Finns regard the Bible as being the literal word of God. In the other Nordic Countries there is significantly less support for this view (only 3% in Sweden).”
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
Recently infinndel,an atheistic fanatic, was engaged in a heated discussion with a Minister of a local church..
The Minister confronted infinndel’s non belief system by asking:
“When you observe the world around you,can’t you see the symetry and design inherent in nature around you?Or do you think the universe was an accident or random event?”
infinnndel produced evidence refuteing the Ministers cosmological model:
“Intelligent design is merely magical/wishfull thinking.I maintain that if there is a mystical being that created the universe,he employed UNINTELLIGENT DESIGN.”
“Throughout history mankind has engaged in unspeakable cruelty, in the name of whatever deity they choose to use ,to justify despicable acts against opposing religous groups or non believers.”
“This constant religious warfare against humanity will eventually result in ATOMIC elimination of the human race,thus completeing the cycle of stupidity”
Frank Zappa once stated”Some scientists say that the most common element in the universe is hydrogen.I say that STUPIDITY is the most abundant element in the universe!”…Peace Be Upon Us All…infinndel
Comment by inFINNdel — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 5:23 pm
Vox Day has written about the claim that religions have been responsible for wars throughout history:
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/08/fun-with-atheists.html
He suggests Christians to “ask an atheist who the greatest general in history was, then ask what religion Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Sun Tzu or Genghis Khan subscribed to.”
I don’t really get his point, but he might mean that the average American atheist probably never heard of any of those guys.
Does Vox really mean that Greeks, Romans, Chinese and Mongols all were atheists or is he knowledgeable about the personal religious views of the great military tactics of history? After all, many military leaders throughout history have belonged to some other religion than a monotheist one. That doesn’t mean there hasn’t been a God of war or a passage in a religious text that justified going to war.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 5:31 pm
Sunzi (Sun Tzu) probably was non-theist… His is not usually the name that comes up in these discussions belief in which god is responsible for wars…
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 5:44 pm
“A Christian can only hope that the seeds planted earlier took root in the end, and that he did place his faith in Christ before he died.â€Â
What Christians often don’t understand is that - just because you believe in evolution, doesn’t make you an atheist, and doesn’t mean there’s no afterlife.
Like me for instance, I believe in evolution, I’m not a Christian, I’m not religious at all, bu I’m not an atheist nor agnostic, and I do believe in an afterlife.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 5:46 pm
“I do believe in an afterlife”
Same here. Or reincarnation in a way. Actually every morning I get to work, I wonder about what unspeakable sins have I committed during my previous life to deserve this… :p
Comment by FinnFreak — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 6:03 pm
The Finland-Swedish writer Topelius (1818-1898) apparently believed in an anti-darwinist theory of degeneration, at least in his old days.
http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=388
Topelius was a key thinker when we’re talking about how Christianity and the idea of Finland were interpreted in this country. The aging Topelius had a negative view on the Enlightenment, so he believed that the human race was becoming worse all the time. The link to the Swedish-language book I placed is about a thesis that was published some years ago concerning the nationalism, anti-semitism and Christian millennarianism of the aging Topelius.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 6:11 pm
Phil: you believe in an afterlife. But to the IRC (Institute of Creation Research) it is totally irrelevant what kind of afterlife you (or Charles Darwin or anyone else) believe in, as long as it isn’t the same version of afterlife they believe in. Their teaching is based solely on the Bible. So they would reason that you can a) believe the right way and may go to heaven b) don’t believe and go to hell or c) believe in the wrong way and still go to hell as an infidel…
The question that has tormented the fundamentalist mind for centuries is, what is worse, not believing at all or believing the wrong way (false prophets, false books, wrong kind of afterlife)?
If there were, in a given population, say 60% of Christian believers and 40% of non-believers, they’d simply count how many souls they yet have to save and then they’re where they want to be. But if it turns out that the non-believers already believe in something else, that makes the job that much more difficult for them…
The usual missionary argument is that since you don’t believe, your life is hollow and you need religion. It’s a tougher nut to crack to explain why one belief is right and the other one is wrong and why there should be a conversion. In the case of evolutionism they employ the strategy used against them “but it’s only a belief, you can’t prove it”. Like you said, Phil, you believe in evolutionism. So the Christians say that don’t believe in that, believe in their stuff instead. What matters to them is what people believe in, not what can be scientifically proven. Science is of more use to them when it is used in disproving rather than proving things.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
I hope these people don’t use their political power. Religious people should not vote.
Comment by Mikko Sandt — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 6:31 pm
Jesus didn’t use religion as a weapon in politics. His followers did, however. In Islam the situation is different as politics was a big part of the picture from the very beginning. Still, there are Islamic mystics (Sufi, at least) who believe that religion should be kept out of politics and have been such people for centuries. All religions can be used in politics but even such religions that have a long history of fundamentalist politics can be used in a purely non-political way.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 6:42 pm
So, as you can see, it’s a wise decision to stop public funding of religious nutcase-schools…
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 7:17 pm
“I believe in afterlife”
OMG WATS UR HOROSCOPE!!!!!1111
Well, I want to say that Finland actually fought in second WW and was after it one of the poorest countries in the world. So if “religious old geezers” want to believe in creatonism then that is fine with me. Either way they build us a fine country where there happens to be much more life threatening religious views in the “new age” section.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
http://lehti.samizdat.info/2006/08/23/1726/
Comment by Suviko — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 8:30 pm
On #19, as a matter of fact, I’m only 18 years off from the eligibility of the geezer brigade membership myself. And the years go fast-forward with the kids…
I guess the worldview of the current geezer generation was well highlighted in Linna’s Unknown soldier, as Hietanen put it: “Ahvena, mää olenki hiilestä tehty ahvena. Tulkka poja pilkil.” (A Perch, I’m a perch made of carbon. Come on ice fishing, boys.) So the scientific view is something too high-flying to believe in, but also, not worth of spoiling a good working day making a ‘Daytonin apinajuttu’ (big deal) out of it.
I’m also quite allright with this, as relatively peaceful coexistense has been possible without court cases or “science” by religious politics. And I hope it stays that way. My old “confirmation priest” believes the universe is some 5000 years old, but we still greet (Voltaire style) if I happen to see him on summer vacation back home.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 10:13 pm
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the data by age. I’m willing to bet (always the optimist) that among youngsters the amount of “sceptics” is smaller.
Comment by m — Wed, Aug 23rd, 2006 @ 11:06 pm
That research is nothing dramatic - http://www.luominen.fi is all we need to see that there are well enough stupid people in Finland.
Comment by PTJ — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 12:05 am
23. Wow. I didn’t know a site like luominen.fi existed in Finland.
Fundamentalism is alive and well in Finland.
Comment by Finnpundit — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 4:08 am
Finnpundit, internet is full of questionable stuff and crap. It doesn’t need too many airheads or much recources to put up a internet site and you can find them in all languages. If that Luominen -magazine will sell good enough to get issue #2, I’ll start worrying. Well, it really doesn’t worry me, people may believe in what ever they like. These ones doesn’t seem too harmful, there is more hazardous beliefs and stupidity out there.
Comment by issi — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 9:08 am
It’s a hopeless discussion, since most people clearly don’t understand the distinction between evolution and Darwin’s theory of evolution.
#1. Evolution as a natural fact was firmly established in the 18th century.
#2. Darwin’s theory of natural selection is a scientific theory about the mechanism of evolution. And for a scientific theory it has been remarkable long-lived and has survived 150 years of constant attacks from both outside and inside the scientific community.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 9:52 am
Phil, You have written many times about creationism and religion in American schools. I have never come across it in my K-12 education, and would feel uncomfortable with it if I had, as I feel comfortable receiving religious instruction from my church, not my school. I wonder if Creationism is included in the public schooling curriculum in Baltimore?(If that is where you grew up) I am sure it was not. Or are you propagating this lie for the purpose of your incessant need to bash religion.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 10:27 am
Evolution is of course a fact, but is Darwin’s theory the right theory? Anssi’s theory is that everything evolved from waffles, as he doesn’t really care for the small details.
Comment by Anssi — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 10:39 am
Well, there are some homegrown fundamentalism in Finland, but what really worries me, is this imported hamburger fundamentalism, resulting, for example, in some sunday school aunties giving children some pretty disturbing “comic” strips with stories about hell and what happened to murdered and raped atheist mom of one little boy. There were some appalled letters to the editor on subject here some time ago.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 11:43 am
http://www.helsinki.fi/yliopistolehti/2006/05/artikkeli.htm
I was trying to find that A.Syrjäniemi song’s lyrics, Daytona’s ape case and bumped into this.
Even G.W.Bush supports teaching the ID -theory. Sceptical?
Comment by issi — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 12:00 pm
Eh, Dayton’s, I ment.
Comment by issi — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 12:11 pm
Issi, here are the lyrics, sorry for the long post and to non-finnish speakers.
Ai ai ai ai, apina
Voi voi voi, mikä napina
siitä nyt nous, kun se mestariskous tiesi, ja antoi ymmärtää,
että kävi vaan sellanen rapina
kun ihminen ennen ol apina
Puita myöden kuorta syöden ennen muinoin rapusimme vain
Mutta se tiukalle otti, Daytonissa kehitysoppi
Apinako niin paljon muuttuupi? Siitä nyt hullutki suuttuupi!
Ei me olla apinoita!
Oli Daytoni tuollanen tienoo
missei ollunna tietoa hienoo.
Siellä yhtään ne ihmiset nytkää kehityksellänsä kerskaile
Nousi jo kaikkien raivo,
heittäkää se vietävä kaivoon!
Siellä nikkaroikoon, helvetti soikoon, akkoja, ukkoja apinoistaan!
Mutta kun isäkin on pappi, siitä lohtui vähäinen sappi
Apinako niin paljon muuttuupi…
Tuli oikeudenkäynti siit julma
missä selville saatav’ on pulma
Miten ja milloin, nytkö vai silloin elit ja passaako ollenkaan?
Seinien sisällä se oppi
että ihminen on kehittyvä kloppi
Vaiko tallaa maata allaan nyt ja aina ennallaan?
Mutta se tiukalle otti…
Ol’ väittely oikein tuo tiukka
siellä rajan nii liikkuva viuhka
Siin ilmaki kiehuu ku terroni riehuu
ja vaati siihen vastinta:
Kuinka valaskala Joonaan nieli,
ku sen kurkku on nii vietävän pieni?
Tähtöset hyörii, maapallo pyörii, aurinko seisoo alallaan.
Vastaa nyt edes tämän kerran! Ei, ei mulla turvani herran
Apinako niin paljon muuttuupi…
Siellä terroni loikoili syltään
sieppasi pois takin yltään
Hihat se kääri, kun se hääri tutkien ja toruen
Kuka painoi sen Raamatun lehtiin
että Aatami ensiksi tehtiin?
Silloin jo juotiin kun maailma luotiin, ja tanssittiin ja hurrattiin
Ja tuhansia vuosia katto Kiinassa kieroon
ennenku Aatamil’ ol’ Eevasta tietoo
Ja apinako niin paljon muuttuupi? Siitä nyt hullutki suuttuupi!
Ei me olla apinoita!
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 1:08 pm
As far as I know Darwin was wrong when stating that the “survival of the fittest” (including sexual selection) is the only mechanism of evolution. Apparently one third of the Finns are aware of this
But if they say that they don’t believe evolution itself, that’s a bit more difficult to understand; don’t they believe that mutations exist or that selection pressure exists. Strange indeed. Then again there’s at least one big mystery left: how life itself began apparently against all odds, the secon law of therodynamics in particular. There is room for scepticism till an explanation is found.
Comment by tomia — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
There will always be skepticism toward science, after all, it’s nothing but a bunch of interpretations made with 5 (or so) human senses. One day you think the Earth is flat, the other day you think that atom is the smallest thing in the world until somebody looks inside and finds more crap.
btw, that was more or less a quote from the “Friends”
Comment by EU-civil servant — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
@Phil
It’s OK to believe, but pretending that faith is science is not. ID is for IDiots only.
@17
There is no escaping politics. E.g. early Christians believed a Christian should not serve in the army or the Roman civil service, because these both involved violence against the enemies of the state. The Roman state, of course, regarded this as highly subversive and tantamount to advocating desertion. Withdrawal from politics is itself a highly political act.
@34
The funny thing is, mediaeval people did not believe the Earth was flat. At least the ones we know anything about, nobody recorded what the peasants thought about anything. A couple of early Christian theologians favoured a flat earth on theological grounds (Celsus, Cosmas Indikopleustes), but they were either ignored (Celsus) or completely unknown in the West (Cosmas).
Comment by prince of dorkness — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 2:59 pm
pod: Jehovah’s Witnesses of course consider military service and voting as sinful. Those are political acts when put into practice.
Still, Christians can be passive in politics, vote etc. without promoting a political agenda themselves or they can be active in politics, but promote a secular political agenda rather than the political agenda of a church.
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 4:00 pm
For 33.
Yea thats true, darwins theories are no longer valid, they have been adjusted after discovering genes and such. He only had the basics.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Aug 24th, 2006 @ 10:14 pm
Darwin’s theories are no longer valid, but never the less, “On The Origin Of Species” is still worth reading, after 150 years it was published.
Comment by Cruzan — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 1:38 am
Echa A Rodar Tu Corto. . .
Your short feature to travel all over the world…
cinevivo
http://www.cinevivo.com.ar
Comment by S. — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 1:49 am
I must say that the HS piece was a V-E-R-Y big, not to say huge surprise to me. Either it’s that mostly the people I know are more or less HC science types (religion optional) or that finns don’t speak about their deepest feelings that much (well, they don’t but that wasn’t what I meant).
If some ID/creatonist freak asks me whether I really believe that he/she has descended from an ape, I usually reply to them that, no, I don’t think they have descended at all. And leave them to work it out;)
Comment by JNT — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 3:32 am
Well, fundamentalism has long been big in Finland. We have our homegrown pietism in the various Lutheran revival movements and as Antti said, the imported hamburger fundamentalism on top of that.
Finland has its Bible-thumpers, surprisingly many people support the freedomization of Iraq (and other random countries), and a gun nut lobbying group is in the making. To be called Suomen NRA, no less. Finland definitely has hope.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 12:35 pm
Then again there’s at least one big mystery left: how life itself began apparently against all odds, the secon law of therodynamics in particular.
Exactly how is abiogenesis in contradiction to the 2nd law of thermodynamics? You’ve been reading that luominen.fi site too much.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 12:38 pm
To be called Suomen NRA, no less. Finland definitely has hope.
Sure enough, there’s also a website: http://www.nra.fi. This is so classy.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 12:44 pm
Freeridin’: there’s also a column by Finnish NRA chair Runo Kurko in English:
http://www.nra.fi/pjuk.html
“As the President of the NRA of Finland, I have always been interested in shooting, hunting and collecting guns. I have written several articles about guns, hunting and legislation in numerous hunting and gun magazines and served as specialist on several radio and television programmes during the last 25 years. I was involved in gun business in 35 years, specialized in police instructor weaponry, chemical arms etc.”
(from the Column of the President by Runo K. Kurko)
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 1:23 pm
NRA of Finland President Kurko also stated having been member of NRA in the United States for decades and a reader of American Rifleman since the 1960s.
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, Aug 25th, 2006 @ 1:26 pm
well atleast we don’t have something like this in Finland
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
a okay documentary about sick disgusting people
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Aug 26th, 2006 @ 10:29 am
“Then again there’s at least one big mystery left: how life itself began apparently against all odds, the secon law of therodynamics in particular.”
This is a pretty serious (and all too common) misunderstanding of the second law. The Earth isn’t an isolated system: we receive energy from the Sun. So lots of things can happen here.
Read more at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics
Abiogenesis is still a mysteri though.
Comment by m — Sat, Aug 26th, 2006 @ 12:51 pm
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Comment by hcdgnsrxbs — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 1:53 am
Square water melons and genetically engineered food are samples that once in a while, life is created. Not a proof, but a plausibility.
Comment by Jim Thio — Sat, Oct 20th, 2007 @ 6:40 pm