I don’t know if you’re bigoted – its just self-evident all this you mentioned.

You’ve heard of the old “stereotype” joke, found on the “you’ve been too long in Finland when:” -list?

- You hear loud-talking passengers on the train. You immediately assume:
a. they are drunk
b. they are Swedish-speaking
c. they are Americans
d. all of the above.

No one is as loud as a american tourist (they also ask the stupidest guestions) just today way before I was anywhere near old-town Porvoo I could hear them miles away.

And the random comments about random things that I heard while walking the streets well one could guess that the streets were taken over by 3-year-olds

sorry for the bigotry, tourists are almost always dumb not just americans (although they are the funniest around)

I haven’t had any desibel meters with me lately, and I don’t really notice any difference in loudness between Finns. (Maybe I just haven’t paid attention). But in the Helsinki centre there are often at this time of the year Swedish tourists, and they are really loud!

I wish Finns were louder, especially those born in cities. Coming from countryside (where people use normal voice loudness) myself, I often have real trouble hearing what these people say. The strange thing is that when going to a noisy place such as a lunch restaurant or a nightclub, they start speaking even quieter. Thus I rarely participate in lunchtable discussions. In a quiet office they speak almost with normal loudness.

I used to watch the ETV morning show in Tallinn and wish that someone would stab the Estonians with adrenaline needles. But then I switched to the MTV3 Morning show shich was like – I don’t know – like drowning in a sea of barbituates and queludes. It was so slow it could not be measured. Helsinki’s a great place to go if you need to unwind though. It’s like a natural sanitarium.

I haven’t noticed Swedish-speakers (this being Finns who speak Swedish as their first language) being louder when they talk. It’s easy to spot Swedish speakers walking around, though. They’re pretty distinctive – more elegant and (in the case of the fairer sex, at least) better-looking.

Add me under “Americans can be spotted a mile away by the distinctive frequencies they emit”.

They’re pretty distinctive

A myth. Trust me. You just see a distictive looking Swedish speaker and think they’re all like that.

giustino, pretty standard stuff, very much like the morning TVs in the USA.

http://nettitv.mtv3.fi/nettitv_uutiset/index.shtml/nettitv_uutiset/ajankohtaisohjelmat/huomentasuomi?82024#82024

Kai: I think your point about Swedish-speakers being elegant dressers is basically about the Helsinki-Espoo-Vantaa-Kauniainen area.

There’s also a big difference in the culture of talking between Swedish-speakers in the Helsinki area and the Vaasa area.

I really don’t think Swedish-speakers are louder in Helsinki trams, it’s just that Swedish-speakers in Helsinki area are relatively talkative and hearing the minority language automatically attracts the attention of non-Swedish speakers. Even if Phil himself is not a Finnish-speaker, he doesn’t have the “wow, that person speaks Finnish” effect which makes him listen slightly more attentively when he hears Swedish spoken (just my guess).

Finnish speakers in Helsinki are generally less talkative, at least when compared with traditional Eastern Finnish culture. I come to think of Karelians, for example, of the sprightly and loud Riitta Uosukainen-type (she’s from Imatra). If Viipuri still was a part of Finland, I guess it would be easy to hear very talkative Finns who live in a relatively big city. Some of those old people who grew up there can be both born and bred Finnish-speaking city dwellers and very talkative at the same time.

I find people in Turku more talkative than the average inhabitant of Helsinki. Has anyone else the same impression?

If my point about Phil in a tram hearing both Finnish and Swedish spoken was unclear, I meant that he probably doesn’t reflect that much on hearing Finnish spoken but automatically thinks “hey, that’s Swedish” and becomes more attentive when he hears Swedish spoken (just because he hears it more seldom spoken than Finnish).

I am not quite sure whether Swedish speakers are louder but it’s true that they talk slightly more than finnish speakers. But anyway Finnish speakers become as loud as others when they have a mobile kit in their hands.

And it’s true to spot swedish speakers easily in the street and in tram. They are three times handsome than finnish speakers.

I agree with Helsinkian, it’s probably that your ears tune into Swedish with more “impact” than to Finnish as it’s more unusual to hear it. Although, that said, perhaps we can be a little more jolly than some Finnish-speakers, but depends where they are from. Finnish speakers from the east could talk their fellow compatriots of either language persuasion under the table any day.

Now, Blah… don’t get me started on American tourists in Vanha Porvoo / Gamla BorgÃ¥. I remember being in Brunbergs confectionary shop with an American couple in front of me at the queue for the cashier. They were loudly trying to pay in American dollars, which the shop in fact did accept. However, the cashier said to them quite politely that they would receive their change in euros because they don’t have dollar coinage or enough to give change in USD. The Americans through a complete stink, “What are we supposed to do with euros? What good are they to us?” etc etc. I quite frankly wished to slap them for the shouting they were making against the poor shop assistant. I don’t wish to believe all Americans abroad are like that, as I have met plenty that are most agreeable… but the loud ones like these do not do the rest of their fellow citizens any favours! Why travel abroad if you are too scared/stuburn to use the local currency or eat the local food?

Right, rant over.

Sorry… back again… and still ranting.

Why is it you again associate Swedish-speaking Finns with Swedes… I assume you are speaking of the Swedish speaking Finnish population being louder, and yet you put a picture of Göran Persson on his mobile next to Victoria on the page of the article. We are not from Sweden!!!

Rant really over this time.

My theory is that Swedish speakers in Southern Finland are not that loud but they talk more than the Finnish-speakers of the same region. Swedish being different from the majority Finnish (in majority Finnish-speaking areas), Swedish attracts attention by being different, not by being loud. It’s about a similar situation with the people from SkÃ¥ne in Sweden, who can be very talkative and fast-talking (and speak with a different accent that attracts attention) but not necessarily louder than anybody else in Sweden. My guess would be that Stockholmers are the loudest type of Swedish-speakers but no variety of Swedish strikes me as particularly loud. People in Northern Sweden are perhaps less talkative and more like Swedish-speakers of the Vaasa region, who are probably more introvert, like the stereotype about (Western, especially Häme) Finns.

1. Deaf people

Do you mean Mute people or am I missing the sarcasm? I’ve heard some loud ass Mutes before.

The Americans through a complete stink, “What are we supposed to do with euros? What good are they to us?” etc etc.

You should have kicked the shit out of them. Those types of Americans make the rest of us look like assholes. They probably voted for Bush – both times.

When I talk, I can be as loud as fuck and those who don’t like it can kiss my fat ass. Simple as that. But at least I know what to do with a euro.

Why are Swedes being talked about again anyways? Just throw up a pic of Günther. That’ll shut everyone up.

Speaking of Sweden and loud ignorant Americans, anyone ever been to the American Store in Stockholm? I want to know about it.

Gopha, it was so hard to resist not kicking the shit out of them, believe you me. Insulting an employee of a good finlandssvensk company in my hometown in the most out of touch with the real world way imaginable. I’m certain they didn’t just vote for him, they may indeed have been close family friends !

I agree again with you Helsinkian. People with SkÃ¥ne dialects may not actually be significantly louder than the average Sweden Swede person, but their accent is so notably different (particularly if you’re accustomed to hearing finland-swedish) that it just stands out more. Which is unfortunate really considering it’s never really going to win an award for most attractive accent (sorry people from SkÃ¥ne). And anyway, why is it that the SkÃ¥ne flag and supposed flag of Svenskfinland are the same? That always puzzled me.

I assume you are speaking of the Swedish speaking Finnish population being louder, and yet you put a picture of Göran Persson on his mobile next to Victoria on the page of the article. We are not from Sweden!!!

I’m not joking when i say this: I looked all over for a Swedish-Finn using a phone, couldn’t find one. I went to RKP’s website and searched Yahoo! Images for all the names I found. Then I typed in “Sweden phone” and found that photo.

#JG

I hear ya, personally I would have kicked the shit out of them.
It makes me wonder why the hell do they come here? When all they can do is to be ignorant mixed with the right amount of arrogance and complain and act like complete twits (of course all tourists aren’t like that).

At least when I go abroad I try to know something about the place before going there and be respectful to the local populace.

I don’t remember my finlandsvensk passengers being any louder, than the rest of the crowd in trams. OK, some youngsters maybe, when drunk. I remember one drunken, a bit pappa betalar stylish party singing “I’m sailing” with lyrics: “I’m drinking, I’m smoking” all the way to Munkkiniemi (I kid you not), but that’s about it. On the next round, I had a loud Estonian criticizing prez Koivisto’s too prudent policy on the independence of the Baltic states.

About the currencies. The cruise passengers are usually a bit out of touch of the reality. I had some Sweden swedes genuinely surprised, that they can’t pay in kronor and some Einstein trying to pay with 1000mk note, which I could have refused by the rules, but as I happened to have few batches of 10mk coins at the moment…

Then there was once this fragile old american lady, who had visited Finland last time in the 60′s or 70′s. She paid with those old blue 5mk and brownish 1mk notes. I still have them like a “substantial candy money” -souvenir from my childhood.

Spot the loonie? It’s good to see Phil giving a rest to the tedious libertarian stuff and just relax a bit with these amusing and novel ideas. As for my scientific observations on the noise level of nationalities, nothging conclusive yet about Finnish-Swedes – I’ll keep you posted, Phil!

Phil, nr 16… well, at least then you made an effort then!! Mind you, Sfp never answered my last e-mail, so perhaps they are in a communications neverland not just affecting telephones.

Just please understand, we are not from Sweden and frankly Swedish-speaking Finns make jokes about the Swedish as much as the Finnish-speakers.

American tourist views of Europe:

1.They don’t know anything about Europe(Is it East or West of the US?),
but really want to go there because they think it’s cool.
OR
2.They know a fair amount about Europe(countries, history, etc.), and really want to go because they think it’s an interesting place.
OR
3.They know an extensive amount about Europe(especially pertaining to politics and social systems) and either love it or hate it, but regardless would still love to go to the South of France, the North of Finland, or Italy,etc. They return with nice things to say even if they disagree with the politics.

Finnish tourists or potential tourists to the US.

1.They already know everything about the US and hate it and do not need to spend thousands of Euros to reaffirm what they already know.

2.They go and have a relatively enjoyable trip, but are quik to point something negative. Usually some crap like “I saw this 500 pound whale women at the grocey store and then mention how unfortunate it is that there is people like that in the same country where there are people who have know food and are starving to death. What crap! They say they didn’t see any starving people when asked, but they KNOW that they are there.

3.They aren’t into politics(kinda like American tourist #1) and want to go to the US because they watch movies. These are the Finns who seriously ask Americans in Finland “How many times have you seen a cop shoot someone?”. They love their trips, see positive things, and have nice things to say. They are afraid of cops and black people.

4.Same as number three but have mostly pleasant comments.

My point is that Americans, for the most part, are more positive in there assesments. While Finns, in GENERAL(not as a rule), are negative.

Two more points:
1. Loud Americans in Finland
-Drunk business people in downtown Helsinki
-Drunk young people or happy old people.
-Sober liberals who want everyone to know that they are in Europe and that they also very European. To me these people are the most embarassing. Hey everybody,”Let’s go Europe and ride around on busses and trains and talk very loud about how great buses and trains are and how we don’t have them back home and it’s a down right shame and hey let’s loudly bash Bush also.” They want the Europeans around them to like them and accept them. In reality the Americans quietly sitting next to them are embarrassed and all the Finns just think they are loud annoying Americans.

2. Finally, people on vacation are louder and more carefree because they are on vacation. I’ve had many Finnish guests in my house and they are very obtuse in public, do dumb things and ask dumb questions because they curious and ARE HAVING FUN!! Boy that’s a shame(sarcasm).

Americans always ask what language they are speaking, which many times is followed by asking “Where is Finland?”. They ask them if they are enjoying their trip and if they like the US. Many times they flirt or joke around with the Finns.

Never do they go on to the internet and post about loud annoying Finns who act stupid and ask dumb questions. They enjoy the tourists who are having FUN, not dislike them.

Instead they say “Finns are cute”, or “the language sounds exotic” or “I should go to Finland”.

This perception of tourists is all about the additude natives. Are the natives by nature positive or negative?

Disclaimer: By tourist I mean somebody who is making a once in a lifetime trip or are taking their yearly vacation. These are different than serial travelers or people who live in other countries.

Americans are loud and talkative in the sense that they often times say what they think right away,…when a group of them congregates, it gets loud cause this is going on…it’s not bad at all and actually a bit reassuring…Finns carry this burden so often that if something is going to be said it better be profound or intelligent at least—–

Just please understand, we are not from Sweden and frankly Swedish-speaking Finns make jokes about the Swedish as much as the Finnish-speakers.

Absolutely. It would be like someone saying I’m English!! Yuk!!!

Don’t know if anyone else has this problem, but I find it hard to ignore conversations in other languages than Finnish, no matter how inane the content. The effect of years of taking listening comprehension tests, probably.

JG: A good question about the flags. Apparently the inofficial Finland-Swedish flag has the colours of the Turku region (Varsinais-Suomi):

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svenskfinlands_flagga

Indeed, the flage of the Swedish province Skåne looks strikingly similar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Sk%C3%A5ne.svg

I actually had thought that the inofficial (and indeed, relatively unknown) Finland-Swedish flag has the red and yellow colours because SFP is known to use those colours. The Swedish wikipedia article said nothing about that, though, what was said was that the red and yellow flag was an alternative to the blue and white version when Finland’s flag was chosen.

Why red and yellow? I guess it’s the colours of Finland’s coat of arms. Those colours originate from the coat of arms of Varsinais-Suomi (Turku region), I suppose.

Ummm… Phil, Princess Victoria and Göran Persson are from SWEDEN, not Finland.

Regarding the flag, I’ve never known anyone fly it. I’m not even so sure Finland-Swedes in the south really know that it exists. Although, I remember a while back (maybe until the early to mid-1990s, Stockmann had one hanging in one of its main halls). It is true though that the colours are supposedly from the coat of arms and also in österbotten they fly a red and yellow vimpel flag. In the south people fly a blue, yellow and white vimpel from their flag poles.

But yeah, I guess most people would just associate the flag with Sfp as it tends to be on the stage at their congresses and meetings.

Although I do agree that there has been many a time I have been in Europe and been vicariously embarrassed by loud Americans, there have been a couple of times that I have heard Finns being very loud on vacation, apparently thinking that no one can understand what they are saying. The first time I heard this, it was a shock. Then, as has been pointed out, perhaps they were finally free of the societal constraint of being so reserved.

23: I think knowing Englishmen, they’d say much the same about Americans.

Mind you, as a Swedish speaker (first) the attitude of SFP and small town pricks complaining over language annoys me. Give Swedish status as it has by all means but don’t complain if a private company doesn’t want to serve you in Swedish (go somewhere else). They are now whinging they MUST have Swedish TV channels 1 and 2 as SVT Europa is not good enough when all goes digital.

Kiss my hairy posterior. This sort of behaviour just creates more negative comment from Finnish speakers and justifiably so. You want it, you pay for it. Or pressure yle to put more texts on. What next, English and Somalias demanding BBC and SomaliaTV over yle wires for free?

I guess Phil would have Fox then for his American information.

I have found that Swedish speakers in and around helsinki and other points in finland are loud, rude and generally obnoxious. They speak the language very loudly because, i am guessing, they feel this superioriy complex over finnish speakers. They act as if they are the beacon of western culture for the finnish savages that surround them. They demand that Swedish be an official language but 95 percent of them go about their lives in public places in Finnish, and only speak Swedish with family members or other swedish speaking finns. Swedish should have the same status as sami in Finland, and if it not was because Sweden was the former colonial master and now a very wealthy country, Swedish would probably suffer the same fate as Sami or Russian in Finland or Spanish in the USA, a sort of gutter language spoken by underclasses. No one would bother learning the language, and it would certainly not have any official status like it does today.

Superiority complex probably come from watching cases of inferiority complex.

Espoolainen, That’s really sad that you think that. In what way are Swedish speakers obnoxious? Seems rather harsh.

For my part, there is no superiority complex. How could there be, when as you correctly (although overexageratingly) state it is necessary for most Swedish speaking Finns to go about substantial parts of our lives in Finnish in Finland.

JG

I don’t believe that I am overexagerating at all. Swedish speakers are loud and obnoxious. They really think and believe that they are Gods gift to Finland. They believe that without them Finland would be another Belarus, some backward, deformed eastern european country without the blessing of scandinavian culture.. The few Swedes (from Sweden) that I have come across have said that Finland-Swedish cannot really be Swedish for them because it sounds like any regular Finn speaking Swedish, even though it is gramatically correct. I am not saying that Finland-Swedes should emigrate en masse to Sweden, but I do believe that Swedish should not be an official language nationally or be given official status if it is spoken by more then 6 percent of the population in a given municipality. 6 percent is infintesimal. Finland-Swedes need to come to grips with the very basic fact that Finland, as a whole, is an overwhelmingly unilingual country de facto, and that throwing money for useless translation is sad waste of tax euros. The language spoken in Finland is Finnish, overwhelmingly. Their are countless other languages that are more useful then swedish in the 21st century (portuguese, mandarin chinese, japanese, polish) to name but a few.

Espoolainen,
I personally find it slightly offensive as a Swedish speaking Finn that you condemn as all as obnoxious. There are obnoxious Swedish speaking Finns, yes, and there are also obnoxious Finnish speaking Finns, as well as obnoxious people in every other type too. I certaintly do not believe that I/we are ‘god’s gift to Finland’, that was clearly the lakes!!

Finland-Swedish does sometimes confuse the Swedes, you are absolutely right. This is generally due to surprisingly widespread ignorance in Sweden that there is such a thing as Finland-Swedish and that as a dialect it is as distinct as for instance the strongest SkÃ¥ne or Norrland accent compared to that from someone from e.g. Stockholm. Yet, few to none Stockholmers would tell you that someone speaking in the deepest Malmö drawl is not speaking Swedish because they are familiar that it exists as a dialect.

Of course though, I agree, that in learning a foreign language there are many more languages more useful than Finnish or Swedish for foreign people. However, I do think that Finnish people should both be taught the other national language otherwise in the future the society won’t be able to offer the full range of services in Swedish as it is required to do.