Spare the Quarter – Inch Plumbing Supply Line, Spoil the Child
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/08/spare-quarter-inch-plumbing-supply.html

For me, it’s irrelevant whether it’s technically classified as “abuse” or not. Hitting a child in my opinion is wrong whether it’s one time by a “otherwise good parent” or someone who beats the shit out of their kid. It’s not necessary & teaches the child the wrong way to deal with things. I’d much rather see a law that protects the children from the abusive parents who get away with it (because the law allows hitting and is open to interpretation) than have a law that protects “otherwise good parents” who hit their kids. Parents will hit their kids even if it is against the law so it’s good if there is a legal recourse against it to protect the children rather than abusers. A law that forbids spanking that would have a provision of counselling & parenting courses “for otherwise good parents” would be much better than one where some kids might be abused.

So if someone slaps you, you wouldn’t consider it a violent act? If an adult does that to another adult it’s considered assault. Assault is considered an act of violence. So because it’s a kid it’s not “exactly an act of violence”?

How is spanking “not exactly an act of violence”? It’s called domestic violence when a husband slaps their wife. It’s called spanking when a father (or mother) slaps their kid.

I can’t think of a case where spanking would be necessary. But I’m willing to be open minded enough to entertain the idea that there might be some rare case where it could be necessary.

#44 I never said that so I’m not sure why I would have to defend that position.

take a look at what you wrote in #19

#18 I am really interested in what the difference is between spanking and abuse. I don’t understand and really want to.

So you you didn’t actually say that there was no difference between spanking and abuse. What you said was worse, that you don’t understand the difference between spanking and abuse. That would infer to me, that you see no difference.

Spanking is unnecessary in almost all cases. Therefore, acts of violence (like spanking) against children should be illegal.

A spanking is not exactly an ‘act of violence.’ If that is the case, then you might as well include yelling as an act of violence!

So if spanking is unnecessary in almost all cases, what are the cases where it is ‘necessary’?

I just realized that I can probably count on one hand all the times I have diciplined my child. In every case it resulted in a time out. Guess I am a softy!

Do you know what the defintion of physical abuse is? Contact intended to cause pain, injury, or other physical suffering or harm. So by definition spanking is abuse.

Oh, why didn’t you say so Fred, the law in the US says so! Then is MUST be right. Can’t you think for yourself? The law in the US used to allow people to have slaves. It used to forbid women to vote. Just because something is a law in the US now doesn’t mean that it’s right. Just because it’s not illegal to sleep with my best friend’s girlfriend doesn’t mean I’m going to do it. It doesn’t mean that it’s right.

I am not advocating others to spank their children nor not. You on the other hand are stating that there is no difference between spanking and abusing your child. So why don’t you explain/defend that position.

How is there no difference between spanking and abuse?

The law in the US says otherwise. So please defend your position.

And you can put me down for being American all you want, it doesn’t change your argument (or lack of one). Putting me down isn’t an argument.

You said that there is a big difference between spanking and abuse. I asked you to explain your position because I didn’t understand. I explained what I think many times above. I didn’t start by saying abuse and spanking are not the same like you did. I even said (if you read what I wrote) that I can see in rare cases that spanking might be ok. And not all parents who spank their kids are child abusers.

But you did take a position earlier by talking about your kid. She’s 18 months and too young to be spanked but I can see it coming. And then by saying spanking is not torture.

I don’t think that abuse in general is being ignored. I’m not sure where you get that idea. I said many times that there are many forms of abuse not just physical abuse. I agree with you that the overall evironment and upbringing is important (certainly every parent does good things and bad things – no one is perfect). Even so, I don’t see how spanking is useful in most cases.

About your comment that you could spank the kid and be labelled an abuser but “otherwise be a good parent.” What about I’m “otherwise a good husband” but occasionally I hit my wife? Long ago wives used to be treated as property too but eventually people realized maybe it wasn’t the right way of doing things. In some countries people have realized that violence against kids isn’t the right way either.

You said that the ability to understand or not is the criteria for spanking. And that spanking is a form of protection to ensure they aren’t in danger. I chose example of other humans who cannot understand either. So according to your logic (not mine) hitting is the way to get them to understand and keep them from danger. Just because one group of people is young and the other group is adults is irrelevant and shouldn’t make any difference. You mentioned kids can learn. So why not teach them instead?

I never questioned your ability as a parent personally by the way. You may well be a very good parent, I have no way of knowing. It doesn’t mean I can’t question what you wrote as your opinion or ask you to explain your position.

#40 I’ll accept an explanation that makes sense. If you can’t give me one then you are right – I won’t accept any explanation you have.

- Yeah right. My experience tell me otherwise, especially now that I know that your an American.

- I am not advocating others to spank their children nor not. You on the other hand are stating that there is no difference between spanking and abusing your child. So why don’t you explain/defend that position.

Finnish authorities won’t detain you for debating an issue. LOL As if they are avidly reading this blog looking for criminals. ROFLOL

- What about those who read this blog? You don’t think that someone would not consider reporting people. There is no need for the police to read this. Anyway, this blog is managed in Finland and this is a discussion concerning something illegal in Finland. It is not my position to defend breaking the law weather I agree with it or not, as in this case.

My examples were deliberately absurd to illustrate a point about your argument that kids aren’t able to understand so it’s ok to hit them to make them understand.

– How about relevent examples. You are the one who is comparing children to the disabled. You are comparing apples and oranges and I think disregarding the learning potential of children.

I am quite aware of the situation in the US with respect to violence since I am an American. And I am aware there are lots of forms of abuse but I’m not sure how that relates to the issue of whether or not spanking is abuse.

It relates because while discussing the small matter of spanking the whole issue of child abuse is ignored. The report did not deal with spanking alone. UNICEF considers a child simply observing violence in the home as abuse. I can be the best Dad in the world and be labeled an abuser simply for spanking my child. (which I have not) Then you have all these poor quality parents who let their children do whatever, or lead their children around by a leash, or abandon them in day care, or punish them in public, or whatever and they are ok. The real test is the overall environment and upbringing with the kid. I have no concerns over the quality of my child’s upbringing.

Finnish authorities won’t detain you for debating an issue. LOL As if they are avidly reading this blog looking for criminals. ROFLOL

My examples were deliberately absurd to illustrate a point about your argument that kids aren’t able to understand so it’s ok to hit them to make them understand.

No, not trying to educate/lecture you. I was debating. You can do whatever you want with your children. If you don’t want to think or discuss an issue you can ignore it too. Nobody said you have to do anything. Taking it a little personal aren’t you?

I am quite aware of the situation in the US with respect to violence since I am an American. And I am aware there are lots of forms of abuse but I’m not sure how that relates to the issue of whether or not spanking is abuse.

“#35 you won’t explain because you can’t. no wonder you think hitting a child is ok.”

Look lady, you will not accept any explanation I give you so I am not going to waste my time. This is also a discussion concerning an act that is considered ILLEGAL in Finland. So I am not interested in being detained during my next visit to Finland and having my own comments on this blog used against me.

As it is look at the diatribe you ended up writing anyway.

And, if you think it’s ok to hit a kid because they can’t understand danger should we also hit the mentally impaired because they don’t understand? How about the old person who is demented and wanders out into the street. Should we hit them too so they understand?

- I hope you understand the difference between a learning child and an adult who has disabilities like you describe above. Of course you know that hitting is not going to work in those cases. Then again, NEITHER is your way of dealing with them as you pointed out. I don’t need these types of examples.

Are you trying to educate/lecture me? If so, please stop wasting your time. I am a strict parent as is my wife who is completely against spanking. It is noticed by other parents who also notice how well behaved our child is and that our child listens to us.

The subject of this post is the high level of violence against children in Finland. It is so bad that it is even worse than in the USA. That’s sad. Finland’s 61,000 cases would relate to over 3 million in the US, but the US number is somewhere between 339,000 to 2.7 million. So perhaps Finland needs to ban spanking because of the violence problem here.

More forms of abuse against children:
– Smoking around them
– Dumping them in day care (simply because it’s available)

Taking about drawing lines, there are recent deports suggesting that children are better off out of daycare, instead spending the day with a parent. If that is so, where do you draw the line concerning what is best for the child????

People overcome adversity all the time and manage to lead “normal” lives. It doesn’t mean that is the best way to do something. For example, if I say “her parents were killed as a child and she turned out ok.” Does it mean that she shouldn’t have had parents? Many kids survived and “turned out ok” even though they had hardly any food as a kid. Does it mean we shouldn’t try to make sure all kids have proper nutrition?

One case doesn’t prove anything if you don’t have the comparison anyway. We can’t compare if you would have been better if you hadn’t been spanked.

no, it’s not used with adults because society has deemed hitting other people wrong and made it punishable by JAIL. The only reason parents hit their kids is because they are allowed to without punishment (in the US) and they can because they are smaller and weaker.

I know how fast kids are since I have two. Little speed demons they are. That’s why I keep them away from danger. I don’t let them near the stove if it’s hot. I hold their hand while crossing the street or if they are near the street or even use a leash if it means that it keeps them from running in the street. But if, as you said, kids are so fast to do the bad thing then wouldn’t they get hurt anyway? Before you can hit them even? And if they get hurt they learn anyway that it’s bad so you don’t need to hit them. I doubt the kid who touches the hot stove is going to do it again. If there’s something really life threatening nearby then your kid should be supervised or kept away from it if they are so fast.

And, if you think it’s ok to hit a kid because they can’t understand danger should we also hit the mentally impaired because they don’t understand? How about the old person who is demented and wanders out into the street. Should we hit them too so they understand? Kids eventually get it with explanation and consistency. The mentally impared and demented won’t learn with explanation or other methods so according to your argument we should be hitting the mentally imparied and demented too. And especially them to protect them from danger since it’s the only way they understand.

#34 I didn’t say all people who hit their kids are child abusers. I just don’t think that people should hit their kids. In rare cases a smack on the ass *might* be what a kid needs but it’s very, very rare. Almost all of the time the same thing can be accomplished without hitting. It’s way too often that people just hit their kids because it’s easier. Because they are lazy or because they don’t have the skills to do anything else. Or just because they can. There’s so much violence in society already without teaching more. When it comes to punishment kids need consistency and attention and they need limits set by their parents.

If someone has been hit as a child it’s no wonder MOST of the time that type of person would advocate spanking since that is what their parents taught them about how to deal with a situation instead of teaching them in another way. violence perpetuates violence.

No way do you get that title. I am the Psycho one on this blog.

Anyone for responsability and holding all accountable, with a system thats lets one “sob” fail is…..Psycho…..

It’s all about what works with the child. Spanking didn’t work with me, I PREFERED it to the timeouts, actually. Since I could take the spanking and go on about my playing/business. It was the being forced to not do anything but stare at the wall for 15-20 minutes that drove me nuts. THAT was the punishment I hated, I was too much of a busy body.

On the other hand, a spanking would deter my sister from whatever negative activity she would think of engaging in. Therefore, she never really got into much trouble. (btw, she is a perfectly healthy, functioning adult now too, despite her ‘abusive’ childhood)

“If it’s not abuse why isn’t it used when dealing with adults?”
– Because there are other punishments available for dealing with bad adults, like jail.

I really love the simple ‘you watch your kid to make sure that she does not hurt herself’ type responses. It can take as little as 3 seconds for a kid to end up in trouble. Three seconds is not enough time to react even while you are watching the kid.

Huh

My parents never, never have thought anyone would classify them as child abusers just because they smacked my rear end.

So who is to say what our kids will classify about us? I am expecting the missing car in the driveway at age 16 to be the next child abuse item. Heck the state should get into this one and give them away, after all its just like getting free dental care.