Child abuse..

My kids had it bad. The kids down the block ALL got NEW cars when they turned 16.

One girl even had a SUV given to her.

My kids had to take the bus. Boy were they placed in the child abuse roll call.

Now I have to wonder If they are going to sue me for this child abuse.

“I say, stop hitting the kids, and start hitting adults – there’s some real human garbage out there that get off with nothing more than a 4-week holiday in the prisons, I think they need a rolled-up 6-Degrees newspaper to the ass.”

Great.

I am dealing with an 18 month-old daughter. She is basically too young to spank, but I can see it coming. You miss the main point here in that the current thinking is that any ‘punishment’ is bad. Yell at a child Phil? Sorry, that’s a no-no. Time-outs are ok but those come with all sorts of conditions, and explanations, and that they better not be too long, and heaven forbid the kid breaks down crying uncontrollably. Then you need to address that too! (Don’t turn red either, you might scare the child…)

It makes me laugh when the arguments over circumcism is torture to a baby. Trust me, these kids will cry and scream like you have beat them half to death, just by not letting them touch the remote control or not let them tough a knife at the table, Or not let them climb on top of the dining room table and stop them from hurting themselves.

We spent a night with a friend in Finland last Christmas who has a similar aged kid. She was shocked at how ‘strict’ we were and then goes on to explain how uncontrolable her child is. They were completely confused on any sort of discipline. That’s a shame.

Spanking is not torture. Child however are abused. There is a difference.

Fred Fry has a point. Disclipine, order and punishment are all dirty words these days. Being in favour of them means you are a Nazi or something.
I read a book on child rearing written by a dog trainer a while back. The guy wrote that in his line of work he keeps running into dog owners who feel it’s more humane to have their dog killed than to disclipine it so it won’t bite their neighbours. If you are not in charge, the dogs/kids are, and they are even less qualified than you.

If you have to hit your child, you are simply out of options. I can understand a little spanking for 6-10 year olds but spanking toddlers is just bad parenting.

By glorifying 50′s “sergeant Joe, obedient housewife”-parenting methods is just an excuse not to learn new techniques. World has evolved a little bit since then.

I don’t interfere in circumcising, exept that from my point of view it is pointless as withening of well teeth or kosher food…
I don’t whack my kids with belt or anything, but sometimes you have to get physical just to have some attention.
I know who “koivuniemen herra” is, and it certainly didn’t make me worse person (most likely better one), but I don’t think I’ll ever spank my kids like that. Parents has to be able to figure out themselves how to rise their kids, you can’t spank or patience their asses just because it’s the current recommendation.
The line between raising and abusing kids just isn’t clear for everyone and so it is with the line of raising and spoiling them.
I think it is better to stop the racket before it gets you so angry that you might cross the line.

The only ones in favour of spanking are those who where spanked themselves when they where young…

One good friend of mine also showed this and worse behaviour. He had terrible parents that where really hard on him. He hated it when he was young and was therefore often not at home . It was also not necessary, since he was never a bad kid. Not worse then I was and I never got into trouble. Now he’s grown up and the children (that are his wife’s from a previous marriage) get the same shouting, beating adn strict discipline as he got. Although, not anymore… They are divorced and two out of three children are (even though they are still young) placed out of the house since they got into real trouble, involving drugs and other small crimes…

What’s “good” for you, doesn’t need to be good for others. Phil, you like spanky, so keep it in your own bedroom, not in that of your future children

I can count the times I got slapped, spanked, or my hair pulled with the fingers of one hand. I was a pretty good and calm kid. I think that my wilder older sister will need two hands to count those same things happening to her . My kid sister was the pampered baby who got more discipline from her older sisters than my parents. We all turned out OK.

However good and calm I was, I deserved most of the corporal punishments I got when my mom lost her cool. Either I had purposly made a mess in the kitchen, refused to go to bed and run around screaming like a banshee, or crawled under the dinner table and squeezed our dinner guests’ knees (good times ).

I find the gender bias of this discussion interesting. Everybody is assuming that it’s the father who slaps the kids (and that the kids are all boys and lesbians since they will then grow to beat their girlfriends and wives). Studies show that the majority of physical abuse done to small children is in fact done by the mother.

Well, the kids are different. Some will straighten up their act, if you just give them ‘the look’ and some will require a bit more physical contact. I think hitting does not do any good, but sometimes “portsari” (the guy, who keeps order in the bar) type of approach is required to demonstrate that you mean business by saying no jumping on the bed.

Heh, as Issi points out, the Kekkoslovakian authorities were “Koivuniemen herra” and “Tamminiemen herra”. The teacher could also administrate also some pointing stick on your fingers sometimes at school. I got also some rolled-up Uusi Suomi, as Hesari was the “commie-pinko-liberal birdcage rag”

…And coming to think about it, the parents got more physical, if you pissed them offright on the spot. More severe violations, such as interrupting the municipality council meeting by playing Finnhits on the public adressing system (with the janitor’s son) were corrected by grounding for a couple of weeks with no spanking whatsoever.

Phil,

Remember the wooden paddle with the attached rubber ball? We would get those as gifts from grandma. After the rubber band attaching the ball broke, it would turn into Grandma’s ‘weapon’ of choice.

At some point a kid needs to be spanked. At least once. This way they know what it means when you threaten them with it.

“Disclipine, order and punishment are all dirty words these days.”

No they’re not. Tough discipline is still an essential part of raising kids. Violence is not.

In my family we had tough discipline. My parents never ignored it when I misbehaved and there were always sanctions. They also made sure that I understood why I was being punished, and especially my mom used to have these serious “talks” with me that usually made me feel sorry and guilty as hell. The same methods were used to raise all my sisters, who are also very well behaved.

A well-raised kid doesn’t behave badly because he knows the difference between right and wrong. But a kid who gets regular beatings just wants to avoid the next beating, and when he gets old enough to do whatever he wants to (in the bounds of the law of course) there’s nothing that’s going to stop him from acting like a misbehaving brat. And chances are that after enough violence he’ll learn to hate his parents and think that his parents hate him as well. Beatings can easily get out of hand.

I know that it’s not cool to tell others how to raise their children, but whenever I see someone talking about how spanking or beating is sometimes the only solution, I see a failed parent.

Circumsicion is a fucking revolting act to perform on an infant and it should be outlawed on anyone under 18 barring medical neccesity, and fuck the people that think it can get away with it because the religion advocates it.

Penn & Teller had a real good episode on this.

My mother pulled my hair when I was kid. My sister is ten years younger, and knowing its probaply illegal now, mom dosent pull her hair. There are alternatives.

Its not the violence that brings order, its showing that the parent has an upper hand. You can do that by stopping the kid from going out with his or her friends, forbid candy, videogames, telly… particulary with videogames and telly, its very easy to enforce, just remove a cable from the set and hide it.
Being pulled from hair hurt a minute or two. I imagine spanking hurts somewhat more. Never the less, you can forbid television for days, and make the kid think what he did, and how he would have avoided it. Gives him time to calm down and think alternative scenarios objectively.

I think my mom handled the moving times well. And I doubt no one has ever gotten deep scars in their souls for not seeing the Saturday morning cartoons or not being let allowed to play Super Mario..

The most effective punishment for me has always been “the look” perfected by my mom. She gives a stern look, sighs, closes her eyes, and shakes her head in disappointment. That look would have instantly turned Stalin into a choir boy.

“A well-raised kid doesn’t behave badly because he knows the difference between right and wrong.”

They can know the difference, but it does not mean that they will not do the wrong thing.

“I know that it’s not cool to tell others how to raise their children, but whenever I see someone talking about how spanking or beating is sometimes the only solution, I see a failed parent.”
– You can spot failed parents all over the place and most of the time it has nothing to do with spanking.
– There is a difference between spanking and beating.

This reminds me of those ‘boot camps’ that are run for troubled children. Is a spanking ok if down the road it keeps your kids from needing to attend one of those later on?

#2 You are right people don’t discipline their kids today. Many kids just do whatever they want and are uncontrollable because parents don’t know how to discipline without spanking. It doesn’t mean that spanking is the answer. It means that people should be taught or learn parenting skills.

You seem to say that spanking and abuse are different. Where do you draw the line? If somebody leaves marks then it’s abuse? Or only if the kid ends up in the hospital it’s abuse? Or if you do it because you are trying to teach something it’s not abuse? If you just hit the kid unjustly because you’re an asshole it is abuse? I can’t see why you would NEED to hit a kid no matter how out of control they are.

Why is hitting a child different than an adult? Why do you think kids have less rights? They should be subject to being beaten because they are too little to understand or if they are able to understand they are too little to defend themselves from someone bigger?

Isn’t it a parents job to teach a child how to deal with life? What are you teaching them when you spank? If you don’t agree then you hit someone so they do what you want? They learn that violence is the way to get what you want or to deal with problems. And to obey because they are afraid, not because it’s the right thing to do. If you aren’t around and they know they can get away with it they will do it. Spanking is a quick fix. Parenting takes a lot more effort and time.

#15 no it doesn’t mean that they won’t do the wrong thing. But it’s up to the parent to deal with it if they do the wrong thing. To punish them – it doesn’t have to mean hitting the kid. Why do you assume that if a kid does something wrong beating them is the only way they will obey? Everybody makes mistakes. When adults make mistakes most people don’t deal with it by hitting the other person. We find other ways to deal with the situation. Mysteriously all those skills disappear when it comes to kids.

So can you explain what’s the big difference between spanking and beating?

What a hoot, preventative spanking – you spank them now so they don’t get beat later by somebody else! Let’s keep it all in the family. As long as your parents do it then it’s ok….

“You seem to say that spanking and abuse are different. Where do you draw the line? If somebody leaves marks then it’s abuse? Or only if the kid ends up in the hospital it’s abuse? Or if you do it because you are trying to teach something it’s not abuse? If you just hit the kid unjustly because you’re an asshole it is abuse? I can’t see why you would NEED to hit a kid no matter how out of control they are.”

– I was going to explain further here, and then I decided to not bother. It will not matter, especially to the crowd who thinks that a spanking in itself is abuse. I have not spanked my child but I reserve that form of punishment for use if needed at a future date. (see below)

– I hope your children never put you in such a position where they are completely out of control.

“Why do you think kids have less rights?”

– Because they are more likely to do something stupid and end up with an injury that they will have to live with for the rest of their life, or worse…

“#15 no it doesn’t mean that they won’t do the wrong thing. But it’s up to the parent to deal with it if they do the wrong thing. To punish them – it doesn’t have to mean hitting the kid. Why do you assume that if a kid does something wrong beating them is the only way they will obey? Everybody makes mistakes.”

– Spanking, not beating.
– How do you convey to a small child the concept of death and is this something that you really want to convey to a small child, provided that they can understand it. Some bad things are more dangerous than others, like running out of the yard, running into the street. Standing up in the shopping cart. They might not be capable of understanding how they can be hit by a car and killed, but they certainly can understand that running into the street will earn them a spanking, and if that is the biggest fear that they have, than that’s not so bad.

“So can you explain what’s the big difference between spanking and beating?”
– If you don’t understnad the difference yourself then there is no way that I can explain it to you.

“What a hoot, preventative spanking”
– In a way, spanking is preventative. The goal is to prevent a repeat of whatever the child has done!

**Just to be clear, I have not even spanked my child. Perhaps if more people were spanked as children, we would have less problematic grownups. Then again, that would be true if many parents actually did some parenting!**

#18 I am really interested in what the difference is between spanking and abuse. I don’t understand and really want to. I would appreciate it if you would explain since you seem to know.

My kids have had very wild moments. Sometimes they drive me nuts! I have felt like hitting them at times because I was so angry but didn’t. And I won’t. If they don’t understand something it’s up to me to teach them. When they grow up I want them to solve problems by reasoning and understanding. How do they learn those skills if I don’t show them by example?

So you are saying kids have less rights because they might hurt themselves – so since they might hurt themselves you go and do it for them? Gee that makes a lot of sense. I get it that a child might try to touch a hot stove. It’s the parents job to keep them from the stove & teach them it’s hot. It’s a parents job to supervise the child so they don’t get hurt rather than hit them so they don’t do it.

If a child is so small they can’t understand the concept of death. Surely you could 1) watch them so they don’t run in the street. 2) have a seatbelt for them in the shopping cart or don’t let them stand in the shopping cart 3) in general restrain them from danger. All of those things you mentioned can be prevented by supervision. I have kids, I know what they can get into. It takes a helluva lot of work to supervise but I’d rather do that than hit my kid. I might have to grab their hand 10 times as they reach for the stove but eventually they get it without hitting. Sure hitting is faster but I don’t have to make them afraid of ME so they understand danger.

I would like to know the difference IN YOUR OPINION since you stated there IS a difference. I am capable of understanding many things (and am willing to listen and be open to the other side of the argument) but I’d like you to explain it from your perspective. You claim there is a difference – what is it?

I get it that the idea of spanking (and discipline in general) is to prevent some future behaviour. But that wasn’t the point of my comment.

“This reminds me of those ‘boot camps’ that are run for troubled children. Is a spanking ok if down the road it keeps your kids from needing to attend one of those later on?”

It’s interesting that you mentioned boot camps in your post. Aren’t they like the last chance to get your kid under control after everything else has failed? So how come the kids aren’t spanked on these camps? I mean, the kids are pretty fucked up, so shouldn’t spanking be the only possible way to show them who’s the boss? Apparently not, because it seems like there’s more to discipline than just violence.

And no, spanking isn’t ok even if it keeps kids under control. If it was the only way, then I’d accept it.

And for those who advocate spanking:

If you beleive spanking is an effective teaching method, do you also beleive other adults should have the same rights to spank your children?

Oh my god. A little swat across the behind never hurt any kid. It did get the little munchkins attention, and the follow on behavior was better.

By the way this is not “just violence”. Its called taking control of the situation.

No wonder you guys waive the French white flag of surrender. It’s bred into you.

“beleive other adults should have the same rights to spank your children?”

No, because if I am told of the situation, I will correct it.

Thats called being the PARENT of the little darling munchkin.

winter: Didn’t you get the new Republican Memo of the Month? France is back in the game. FYI, freedom fries out, french fries in.

France? Sure.. when they modify their tanks from 3 reverse gears to 3 forward gears, and a spring up white flag of surrender. (Vrs the fixed white flag they just fly all the time)

#22 & #23

so it’s ok if somebody takes control of a sitution with you that way? in the interest of getting you to behave better and all… I bet it wouldn’t hurt you. And maybe you’d learn a little respect too at the same time…

And I can take control of a situation with a gun too. That doesn’t hurt anybody if I don’t shoot it right? It’s not just violence (or the threat of voilence) it’s just taking control of the situation.

There are many ways to take control without teaching violence.

Why can’t the teacher who has a classroom out of control do the same – hit your child? If you think of hitting as just a way of getting control. Teachers shouldn’t be able to control the classroom? Or they should have to use some other way but since you “own” the kid you get the right to hit them?

“classroom out of control ”

is a different issue. It means the parents did not wack their kids early to gain that needed control.

You are mixing up Parential controls with social controls. They are not the same. The social control needs to point to a parential control. Let the parents do the wacking.

“It’s interesting that you mentioned boot camps in your post. Aren’t they like the last chance to get your kid under control after everything else has failed? So how come the kids aren’t spanked on these camps?”

Let me guess, you have not been in the military. There is no need to spank them because they make them do it to themselves, in other ways.

“I am really interested in what the difference is between spanking and abuse. I don’t understand and really want to. I would appreciate it if you would explain since you seem to know.”

- You could argue that spanking is a form of abuse, but it in itself is not abuse (Finland excluded). Abuse can be non-physical. Neglect is a form of abuse. Letting your children roam free late into the night is also abuse, another form of neglect, as is letting your underage child drink and smoke. Letting your child hang out with militia men like they do in the middle east is abuse. Placing your child in a car without required car seat is abuse (including taxis!).

- Then of course there is systematic physical abuse. You can be abusive in much worse ways than by just spanking your child. You can be guilty of abuse if you don’t bother to look after your child. This is an example of how idiotic Finland’s spanking law is, because it does not outlaw abuse, just one spacific act without differentiating intent. Really what is the difference betweening giving your child a spanking and some other punishment like making them sit in the corner if the end result is the same type/level of crying? Or is anything you do that results in your child becoming upset considered abuse?

- There is no point in me discussing further since in Finland, any form of physical punishment is illegal. So in Finland you could argue that there is no difference.

I have been a dad for only 18 months so I am no expert. I have been complimented numerous times on what a wonder dad I appear to be. I am one of four children. The last one escaped spanking and he ended up being the one who ran into trouble later in dealing with authority. Each family and each child is unique. And here I am defending a practice that I do not myself do. What a waste of my time.

And no, I do not use the child leash like I see so often in Helsinki. I think parents that use those things are abusive parents. They are children, not pets!

Fred

Congrats on the kid. The best time of you life will be watching them test you to no end. We kinda love the testing part.

One time in a supermarket the kid tried the old cry routine, followed by the lay on the floor kicking. We just stood there and waited. No input needed. After the kid saw the zero reaction, the party was over, and back to shopping we went.

It never happened again. The kid knew any fits in public would be his to play out, by himself. Kind of cuts the fun out of watching the parents play a game the kid runs.

#27 so what if the parents did “whack their kid early enough” and they still are out of control in the classroom? kids always test limits.

parental versus social controls. if spanking is so great what’s the difference who uses it if it’s done properly and if it’s most effective? I would think consistency would be most effective with kids and all authority figures (not just parents) should be allowed. are you saying that teachers have no right to control your children especially when they are with the kids most of the day? why are you opposed to other people doing it if it’s so effective? wouldn’t you want what’s “best” for your kids? Or is you having complete and total control more important than consistency and what is best for your kids?

#28 I agree abuse can be non-physical. There are all kinds of abuse. It doesn’t mean that because there are other forms of abuse that spanking isn’t a form of abuse. Let me be clear, why do you consider spanking not a form of physical abuse? If it’s not abuse why isn’t it used when dealing with adults?

And by the way, if you neglect your child it is considered abuse too in Finland.

Measuring abuse is not about “the level of crying.” If you don’t give your kid a car like all the other kids have it’s not abuse.

@no name
The parents are not always there and some of them aren’t able or willing to disclipine their kids anyway. And yes (to use a real-life example), I think if a parent lets a kid climb into a freezer in a supermarket and crawl all over the food, both the kid and the parent are in need of a smack. But it’s illegal, so I try to keep cool.
The teaching profession is in a bit of a crisis here because if a kid get out of control, there are at the moment no real penalties of any kind. Detention works as a threat, but once you’ve used it and the kid has found it isn’t that bad, you’ve nothing left.
@28
I used a child leash a couple of times to support my older daughter as she was learning to walk. (Easier on the back than holding her hands all the time.) But not otherwise.
@30,
kids test limits, that’s why you have to set those limits. I thought things would get easier once they learned to talk and I could make myself understood. I know better now.

Hitting is good! I hit everybody I don’t like, not just my kids, although they are the best targets because they’re too weak to hit back. I was hit, too, by my great parents as a child and loved every minute of it. If you disagree, let’s see face to face and settle the dispute with some good old hitting.

“Let me guess, you have not been in the military. There is no need to spank them because they make them do it to themselves, in other ways.”

You guessed wrong. I served in Upinniemi and later and Russarö in 2002 – 2003. And no one ever got physically spanked by anyone in the army, so I don’t know what you mean. But weren’t we talking about brat camps, not the military? I think these camps are proof that you can have very tough discipline without using violence.

“If you don’t give your kid a car like all the other kids have it’s not abuse.”

Huh

My parents never, never have thought anyone would classify them as child abusers just because they smacked my rear end.

So who is to say what our kids will classify about us? I am expecting the missing car in the driveway at age 16 to be the next child abuse item. Heck the state should get into this one and give them away, after all its just like getting free dental care.

“Let me be clear, why do you consider spanking not a form of physical abuse?”
– Thanks for being clear. I decline to explain further.

“If it’s not abuse why isn’t it used when dealing with adults?”
– Because there are other punishments available for dealing with bad adults, like jail.

I really love the simple ‘you watch your kid to make sure that she does not hurt herself’ type responses. It can take as little as 3 seconds for a kid to end up in trouble. Three seconds is not enough time to react even while you are watching the kid.

I was spanked when I was younger…and now I’m completely psycho and living a sad sheltered life since I was “abused” as a child. Whatever.

It’s all about what works with the child. Spanking didn’t work with me, I PREFERED it to the timeouts, actually. Since I could take the spanking and go on about my playing/business. It was the being forced to not do anything but stare at the wall for 15-20 minutes that drove me nuts. THAT was the punishment I hated, I was too much of a busy body.

On the other hand, a spanking would deter my sister from whatever negative activity she would think of engaging in. Therefore, she never really got into much trouble. (btw, she is a perfectly healthy, functioning adult now too, despite her ‘abusive’ childhood)

Psycho??

No way do you get that title. I am the Psycho one on this blog.

Anyone for responsability and holding all accountable, with a system thats lets one “sob” fail is…..Psycho…..

#35 you won’t explain because you can’t. no wonder you think hitting a child is ok.

no, it’s not used with adults because society has deemed hitting other people wrong and made it punishable by JAIL. The only reason parents hit their kids is because they are allowed to without punishment (in the US) and they can because they are smaller and weaker.

I know how fast kids are since I have two. Little speed demons they are. That’s why I keep them away from danger. I don’t let them near the stove if it’s hot. I hold their hand while crossing the street or if they are near the street or even use a leash if it means that it keeps them from running in the street. But if, as you said, kids are so fast to do the bad thing then wouldn’t they get hurt anyway? Before you can hit them even? And if they get hurt they learn anyway that it’s bad so you don’t need to hit them. I doubt the kid who touches the hot stove is going to do it again. If there’s something really life threatening nearby then your kid should be supervised or kept away from it if they are so fast.

And, if you think it’s ok to hit a kid because they can’t understand danger should we also hit the mentally impaired because they don’t understand? How about the old person who is demented and wanders out into the street. Should we hit them too so they understand? Kids eventually get it with explanation and consistency. The mentally impared and demented won’t learn with explanation or other methods so according to your argument we should be hitting the mentally imparied and demented too. And especially them to protect them from danger since it’s the only way they understand.

#34 I didn’t say all people who hit their kids are child abusers. I just don’t think that people should hit their kids. In rare cases a smack on the ass *might* be what a kid needs but it’s very, very rare. Almost all of the time the same thing can be accomplished without hitting. It’s way too often that people just hit their kids because it’s easier. Because they are lazy or because they don’t have the skills to do anything else. Or just because they can. There’s so much violence in society already without teaching more. When it comes to punishment kids need consistency and attention and they need limits set by their parents.

If someone has been hit as a child it’s no wonder MOST of the time that type of person would advocate spanking since that is what their parents taught them about how to deal with a situation instead of teaching them in another way. violence perpetuates violence.

#36 I think the old argument that “I/s/he was spanked and turned out ok” is pretty lame.

People overcome adversity all the time and manage to lead “normal” lives. It doesn’t mean that is the best way to do something. For example, if I say “her parents were killed as a child and she turned out ok.” Does it mean that she shouldn’t have had parents? Many kids survived and “turned out ok” even though they had hardly any food as a kid. Does it mean we shouldn’t try to make sure all kids have proper nutrition?

One case doesn’t prove anything if you don’t have the comparison anyway. We can’t compare if you would have been better if you hadn’t been spanked.

“#35 you won’t explain because you can’t. no wonder you think hitting a child is ok.”

Look lady, you will not accept any explanation I give you so I am not going to waste my time. This is also a discussion concerning an act that is considered ILLEGAL in Finland. So I am not interested in being detained during my next visit to Finland and having my own comments on this blog used against me.

As it is look at the diatribe you ended up writing anyway.

And, if you think it’s ok to hit a kid because they can’t understand danger should we also hit the mentally impaired because they don’t understand? How about the old person who is demented and wanders out into the street. Should we hit them too so they understand?

- I hope you understand the difference between a learning child and an adult who has disabilities like you describe above. Of course you know that hitting is not going to work in those cases. Then again, NEITHER is your way of dealing with them as you pointed out. I don’t need these types of examples.

Are you trying to educate/lecture me? If so, please stop wasting your time. I am a strict parent as is my wife who is completely against spanking. It is noticed by other parents who also notice how well behaved our child is and that our child listens to us.

The subject of this post is the high level of violence against children in Finland. It is so bad that it is even worse than in the USA. That’s sad. Finland’s 61,000 cases would relate to over 3 million in the US, but the US number is somewhere between 339,000 to 2.7 million. So perhaps Finland needs to ban spanking because of the violence problem here.

More forms of abuse against children:
– Smoking around them
– Dumping them in day care (simply because it’s available)

Taking about drawing lines, there are recent deports suggesting that children are better off out of daycare, instead spending the day with a parent. If that is so, where do you draw the line concerning what is best for the child????

#40 I’ll accept an explanation that makes sense. If you can’t give me one then you are right – I won’t accept any explanation you have.

Finnish authorities won’t detain you for debating an issue. LOL As if they are avidly reading this blog looking for criminals. ROFLOL

My examples were deliberately absurd to illustrate a point about your argument that kids aren’t able to understand so it’s ok to hit them to make them understand.

No, not trying to educate/lecture you. I was debating. You can do whatever you want with your children. If you don’t want to think or discuss an issue you can ignore it too. Nobody said you have to do anything. Taking it a little personal aren’t you?

I am quite aware of the situation in the US with respect to violence since I am an American. And I am aware there are lots of forms of abuse but I’m not sure how that relates to the issue of whether or not spanking is abuse.

#40 I’ll accept an explanation that makes sense. If you can’t give me one then you are right – I won’t accept any explanation you have.

- Yeah right. My experience tell me otherwise, especially now that I know that your an American.

- I am not advocating others to spank their children nor not. You on the other hand are stating that there is no difference between spanking and abusing your child. So why don’t you explain/defend that position.

Finnish authorities won’t detain you for debating an issue. LOL As if they are avidly reading this blog looking for criminals. ROFLOL

- What about those who read this blog? You don’t think that someone would not consider reporting people. There is no need for the police to read this. Anyway, this blog is managed in Finland and this is a discussion concerning something illegal in Finland. It is not my position to defend breaking the law weather I agree with it or not, as in this case.

My examples were deliberately absurd to illustrate a point about your argument that kids aren’t able to understand so it’s ok to hit them to make them understand.

– How about relevent examples. You are the one who is comparing children to the disabled. You are comparing apples and oranges and I think disregarding the learning potential of children.

I am quite aware of the situation in the US with respect to violence since I am an American. And I am aware there are lots of forms of abuse but I’m not sure how that relates to the issue of whether or not spanking is abuse.

It relates because while discussing the small matter of spanking the whole issue of child abuse is ignored. The report did not deal with spanking alone. UNICEF considers a child simply observing violence in the home as abuse. I can be the best Dad in the world and be labeled an abuser simply for spanking my child. (which I have not) Then you have all these poor quality parents who let their children do whatever, or lead their children around by a leash, or abandon them in day care, or punish them in public, or whatever and they are ok. The real test is the overall environment and upbringing with the kid. I have no concerns over the quality of my child’s upbringing.

#42 So no American is capable of being open minded?

And you can put me down for being American all you want, it doesn’t change your argument (or lack of one). Putting me down isn’t an argument.

You said that there is a big difference between spanking and abuse. I asked you to explain your position because I didn’t understand. I explained what I think many times above. I didn’t start by saying abuse and spanking are not the same like you did. I even said (if you read what I wrote) that I can see in rare cases that spanking might be ok. And not all parents who spank their kids are child abusers.

But you did take a position earlier by talking about your kid. She’s 18 months and too young to be spanked but I can see it coming. And then by saying spanking is not torture.

I don’t think that abuse in general is being ignored. I’m not sure where you get that idea. I said many times that there are many forms of abuse not just physical abuse. I agree with you that the overall evironment and upbringing is important (certainly every parent does good things and bad things – no one is perfect). Even so, I don’t see how spanking is useful in most cases.

About your comment that you could spank the kid and be labelled an abuser but “otherwise be a good parent.” What about I’m “otherwise a good husband” but occasionally I hit my wife? Long ago wives used to be treated as property too but eventually people realized maybe it wasn’t the right way of doing things. In some countries people have realized that violence against kids isn’t the right way either.

You said that the ability to understand or not is the criteria for spanking. And that spanking is a form of protection to ensure they aren’t in danger. I chose example of other humans who cannot understand either. So according to your logic (not mine) hitting is the way to get them to understand and keep them from danger. Just because one group of people is young and the other group is adults is irrelevant and shouldn’t make any difference. You mentioned kids can learn. So why not teach them instead?

I never questioned your ability as a parent personally by the way. You may well be a very good parent, I have no way of knowing. It doesn’t mean I can’t question what you wrote as your opinion or ask you to explain your position.

Dear #43,
I asked in my comment #42:

I am not advocating others to spank their children nor not. You on the other hand are stating that there is no difference between spanking and abusing your child. So why don’t you explain/defend that position.

How is there no difference between spanking and abuse?

The law in the US says otherwise. So please defend your position.

#44 I never said that so I’m not sure why I would have to defend that position. But I did answer you anyway….I said (and will say it for the 3rd time since you obviously don’t get it-I will even make it bold so you don’t miss it) THAT NOT ALL PARENTS WHO SPANK THEIR KIDS ARE CHILD ABUSERS in my opinion. I said I don’t agree with spanking as a form of punishment since there are other non-violent methods that work just as well. Spanking is unnecessary in almost all cases. Therefore, acts of violence (like spanking) against children should be illegal. Ditto for acts of violence against adults.

Do you know what the defintion of physical abuse is? Contact intended to cause pain, injury, or other physical suffering or harm. So by definition spanking is abuse.

Oh, why didn’t you say so Fred, the law in the US says so! Then is MUST be right. Can’t you think for yourself? The law in the US used to allow people to have slaves. It used to forbid women to vote. Just because something is a law in the US now doesn’t mean that it’s right. Just because it’s not illegal to sleep with my best friend’s girlfriend doesn’t mean I’m going to do it. It doesn’t mean that it’s right.

Dear #45,

#44 I never said that so I’m not sure why I would have to defend that position.

take a look at what you wrote in #19

#18 I am really interested in what the difference is between spanking and abuse. I don’t understand and really want to.

So you you didn’t actually say that there was no difference between spanking and abuse. What you said was worse, that you don’t understand the difference between spanking and abuse. That would infer to me, that you see no difference.

Spanking is unnecessary in almost all cases. Therefore, acts of violence (like spanking) against children should be illegal.

A spanking is not exactly an ‘act of violence.’ If that is the case, then you might as well include yelling as an act of violence!

So if spanking is unnecessary in almost all cases, what are the cases where it is ‘necessary’?

I just realized that I can probably count on one hand all the times I have diciplined my child. In every case it resulted in a time out. Guess I am a softy!

#46 No, it doesn’t mean that, it means that I wanted more information from you.

For me, it’s irrelevant whether it’s technically classified as “abuse” or not. Hitting a child in my opinion is wrong whether it’s one time by a “otherwise good parent” or someone who beats the shit out of their kid. It’s not necessary & teaches the child the wrong way to deal with things. I’d much rather see a law that protects the children from the abusive parents who get away with it (because the law allows hitting and is open to interpretation) than have a law that protects “otherwise good parents” who hit their kids. Parents will hit their kids even if it is against the law so it’s good if there is a legal recourse against it to protect the children rather than abusers. A law that forbids spanking that would have a provision of counselling & parenting courses “for otherwise good parents” would be much better than one where some kids might be abused.

So if someone slaps you, you wouldn’t consider it a violent act? If an adult does that to another adult it’s considered assault. Assault is considered an act of violence. So because it’s a kid it’s not “exactly an act of violence”?

How is spanking “not exactly an act of violence”? It’s called domestic violence when a husband slaps their wife. It’s called spanking when a father (or mother) slaps their kid.

I can’t think of a case where spanking would be necessary. But I’m willing to be open minded enough to entertain the idea that there might be some rare case where it could be necessary.

RE: Corporal Punishment

Spare the Quarter – Inch Plumbing Supply Line, Spoil the Child
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/08/spare-quarter-inch-plumbing-supply.html