“In the U.S., the local drug-drealers watch and laugh as a couple enjoying wine in a park gets harrassed by the cops.”

Really? We drink wine while picnicking or just relaxing in the park (in the U.S., in many locations) all the time and we’ve never had a problem (*knock on wood*). We even use proper wine glasses much of the time….

But most likely, what you’re doing is technicall illegal, and some asshole cop could give you a fine.

I have never been harassed for drinking in public either. Picnics in NY’s Central Park included. As you say, they need to concentrate on the trouble makers.

It was a couple years back that they suggested lowering the drinking age to 16, simply because they were already drinking. How about starting the “It’s 10PM. Do you know where your child is?” That is the real problem.

I’ll never forget the sight of two kids sitting on the curb in Helsinki drinking out of a full case of beer. That’s just wrong.

I’ll never forget the sight of two kids sitting on the curb in Helsinki drinking out of a full case of beer. That’s just wrong.

Yeah, I see these not-yet-18-year-olds going around my neighborhood, each with a 12-pack in their hand and open bottle in the other. It doesn’t exactly do wonders for my property value, but they’re no donig any harm. However, when they throw their empty bottles in the street, or go out in the woods and leave everything – I’m angry. I just don’t think new laws will deter this whatsoever, they’ll just go further out in the woods and make a bigger mess, because they don’t want to be caught hauling empty bottles back to the streets.

Still in the mid 80s public drinking was forbidden pretty much everywhere. Back then me and two friends of mine decided to celebrate the first warm summer day by buying a bottle of beer each. Then we went to a close-by park, climbed up a steep, rocky hill, sat down and opened our beers. We felt safe until we heard a voice behind us telling us to empty our bottles to the ground. Two policemen on horses had just decided to climb up the same hill. The funny thing was that the other one of my friends had just finished the police academy and started to work at the very same station where these policemen worked. Ha, he was pretty red in face while trying to look “casually” the other way.

Anyway, in a few years time public drinking became legal. I seem to remember that the police regarded it as a good idea at least back then. Apparently they though it was better that the potential trouble makers or passed-out youngsters were in sight, not hiding in parks etc. The situation got a bit out of control though and nowadys you have to be again a bit more careful if you’re young and loud, at least in many smaller towns. Helsinki seems to be a different case for some reason.

Forbidding public drinking would be ridiculous. They tried it in Turku a few years back, and it didn’t do any good: the people causing all the trouble just didn’t give a shit. And besides, it would be unenforceable, given the number of cops on patrol.

I believe the current legislation allows you to enjoy alcoholic beverages as a part of a picnic meal. So boozing is technically forbidden already.

Concentrate on loud behavior for sure.

I don’t mind seeing kids riding along on their skateboards while carrying cases of beer (as long as the bottles don’t fall and break). But drunken groups of young people on public transit are very annoying.

Some of the guys who drive our busses handle them pretty well though. I’ve even seen some physically toss youngsters out the door. I’m always willing to help if the driver is out-numbered.

And also concentrate on littering. People probably wouldn’t litter so much if there were some trash containers large enough so they don’t overfil by 9-pm.

Bottles don’t seem to be a big problem, since they have deposits. How about putting deposits (e.g. redeemed according to weight) on the paper cartons? Would that be practical?

By the way, where I lived in eastern Germany, they just broke bottles on the ground. Also, groups would regularly try to intimidate people.

It’s like they were proclaiming “We’re the drinkers. These are our bottles. We can throw them at you if we choose or break them and cut you. We outnumber you, therefore we can behave loudly.”

The authorities’ hands were tied, due to cowardness of the courts, legislatures and citizenry. I hope it doesn’t get that way here.

Ahemmm… I have been arrested for underage drinking… I was 20.

Heh, in the states over a year back I had trouble buying beer for myself when I was with a 20 year old local, who did the essential driving for me
Over here in Finland they at most might ask “you’re not buying alcohol to your underage buddies are you?” and after denying it they’d let it go.

I live in Helsinki I’m against DISRUPTIVE drinking. I’m also against those who doesn’t properly dispose an empty bottle, which is a bigger problem, even with the less disruptive drinkers. Littering is a bigger problem – then again that’s not only the litterers fault. Around where I live I’ve seen trashcans which aren’t emptied often enough. Way to keep the city clean!

Would stricter restrictions on public drinking work? not really. It’d be absolutely stupid to fine everyone drinking in the public, even if they’re not causing any disruption at all.

Besides – IT IS ALREADY illegal to drink in public in Helsinki!
What are they going to do; declare it illegal once more and find out they don’t have the resources to enforce it?

Picnics in the park just wouldn’t be the same without wine.

Oh, and, about Europe being “cool” for young Americans … Oddly enough, that’s changing. For those of us (Americans) in their, say, mid-to-upper twenties and above “going abroad” typically meant “going to Europe.” Now, the “cool” destinations seem to be Peru, Australia, New Zeland, Argentina, Namibia, and other now-European destinations. So far, of my friends that went abroad this year: 2 went to Peru, 3 went Brazil, and 1 went to

Oops. That last word was supposed “Italy.”

I’ve come to hate summertime in Koff park as mostly what it means is throngs of drunk people who can’t be bothered to throw their shit away even when the parks department have installed giant rubbish bins for them to use. I thought that drinking out of open booze containers in the city was already illegal but, either way they don’t seem to enforce it. And if the drunken picnic people weren’t enough to go with the professional drunks in the park, now the cafe has been turned into a pub to add to their number.

Weekend mornings are always so depressing as the park looks like a landfill and the sidewalks are full of broken glass and other shit that people throw around.

In most European counties its forbidden to drink in public and you will be given high fines for this. In the Netherlands this fine is 80 euro, if you are also drunk its another 100 extra and if you can’t show an ID then ad another 60 euro. oh yes, the put a bag around a bottle trick looks maybe cool but doesn’t work.

Actually I thought in Finland it is actually forbidden as well and drinking on the streets is only allowed on public holidays.
The case seems to be that the Police is just not acting actively on the violation of the law in Finland.

Why are people so afraid to call this for what it is? Fascism. Yes I am serious, the people behind this are closet fascists and this is their way of forcing the rest of us to bend to their will.

They can go fuck themselves, fuck the law as well.

Well, hey, someone important must be coming to visit Helsinki as the city had a small army of folks cleaning up the landfill that is my neighbourhood this morning. Anyone know who it might be?

And Captain Haddock….uh, what’s so fascist about not wanting grubby drunks wandering around on the sidewalks, smashing glass and pissing on your building? The law is supposed act as a deterrent but, since the cops don’t enforce it at all it’s not really worth much.

I just don’t think new laws will deter this whatsoever, they’ll just go further out in the woods and make a bigger mess

Yes, one would think that laws and their enforcement has no effect, but we have an example on the contrary from NYC, where Giuliani’s zero tolerance policy has had a tremendous effect, not only on lesser crime such as littering and disorderly conduct but more serious crime as well. I want something similar in Helsinki. I’m fed up with the underage mäyrisspurgus in our parks and public transport.

” we have an example on the contrary from NYC, where Giuliani’s zero tolerance policy has had a tremendous effect, not only on lesser crime such as littering and disorderly conduct but more serious crime as well. I want something similar in Helsinki.”

US justice system is basically one horrendous clusterfuck, where rich people can get away from murder while three time shoplifters get a life in prison. Not even China has so many prisoners as USA.

Americans have even privatized “prison industry”, how fucking appalling is that. more prisoners, more profits..way to go! You simply cannot go any lower than that when it comes to decency and morality.

So “dirty and drunken” Helsinki is nothing in comparison. One also has to remember that city culture in Finland is quite young and people still think they live in a small village.

[b]And Captain Haddock….uh, what’s so fascist about not wanting grubby drunks wandering around on the sidewalks, smashing glass and pissing on your building? The law is supposed act as a deterrent but, since the cops don’t enforce it at all it’s not really worth much.[/b]

Nice strawman. We’re talking about a law that makes it illegal to consume alcohol in the open. Thats fucking retarded and nothing like what you are talking about, there are lots of people who consume alcohol based beverages in public places.

[i]Fuck yer detterent, goverment leeches.[/i] I’ll see to it to find reasons to drink in public because of this.

Tim73 – Oh, yet another tedious misconception about the US justice, or lack thereof, system. Christ, how so many of you get to be so incredibly authoritative on the US without ever living there is truly a wonder. At least criminals of all kinds get some time in prison occasionally. And Helsinki IS a small village…..

And, Ahoy Captain Haddock…there’s a mature attitude. Yes, go ahead and drink in public, it’s not like anyone is going to stop you after all, the law was passed several years ago, 2002 or 2001 if I remember right, and I don’t think anyone enforces it. You’ll have plenty of company to vomit, piss, poop and smash glass with around downtown. Yeah, more idiot drunk teenagers…we need more of them downtown.

Are you drunk yourself or something? Since when is drinking in public equal to getting shitfaced and vomiting? Black and white fallacy anyone? Oh and guess we should accept all the stupid shit our goverment tries to put into law because otherwise we’re not “mature”, maybe the word you’re looking for is “lobotmized”.

And if nobody enforces the law then it’s really fucking useless and has only been a waste of taxpayer money, you’re acting as if it doesn’t matter that the goverment enacts stupid laws it won’t even enforce, hell you seem to think it works as an excuse.

hfb:

“More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served time there, according to a new report by the Justice Department (news – web sites) released Sunday. That’s 1 in 37 adults living in the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world….
More than 4 million prisoners or former prisoners are denied a right to vote; in 12 states, that ban is for life….
But no one disagrees that prison experience will be a part of the lives of more and more Americans. By 2010, the number of American residents in prison or with prison experience is expected to jump to 7.7 million, or 3.4 percent of all adults, according to the new report”

Per 100 000:
US: over 750!
Israel: 210
China: 100
France: 50-60
Japan: 40

So US “justice” system is a big joke, you cannot just spin those numbers in anyway. Basically, 10-13 times that of EU average! Plus the voting ban for life in many US states.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

tim73: many of those prisoners are there becaue of the War on Drugs. What’s your recipe for the War on Drugs?

Btw. Swedish athletics legends (well, former legends Sven Nylander and Patrik Sjöberg at any rate) were celebrating the European Championships with something stronger than alcohol yesterday. Five former and current athletes were arrested:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/sports/060813/s081338.html

Patrik Sjöberg’s narcotics arrest comes only a week after he had called the shot putter Jimmy Nordin’s getting arrested drunk wearing a Sweden jersey “stupid and pathetic” in Aftonbladet:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/rss/story/0,2789,868275,00.html

Sjöberg is a former athlete (trained to fame by Viljo Nousiainen), still the European record-holder in high jump, currently living in Brazil. What Sjöberg found really pathetic about Nordin was how bad a shot putter the guy is.

Patrik Sjöberg has confessed. Cocaine is the stuff he had on him at the European Championships party:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/sport/story/0,2789,871329,00.html

The other four people in the group were his Brazilian gf, a Greek coach, Sven Nylander and current athlete (reserve of relay squad) Patrik Lövgren. Former athlete Sven Nylander’s employer is called “clean sports” or something like that… Cocaine is of course the same stuff that Swedish tennis legend Mats Wilander (who is known to party with the Rolling Stones) had on his blood when he tested positive in the 1990s, at the end of his career.

Just to clarify, former successful athlete Sven Nylander, 44, who was arrested for the suspicion of having partied under the influence of cocaine, is Executive Director (verksamhetsledare) of Ren Idrott (“clean sports”), an anti-doping organization. I named Mats Wilander and cocaine (since he tested positive for the substance in 1995) but the most famous Swedish cocaine addict with a sports background has been Björn Borg in the 80s after his active career ended. Since cocaine is a stimulant, it’s also classified as doping in sports, not just an illegal drug.

Captain Haddock…maybe you should come live downtown sometime and then perhaps the idea of benefits or attractive features to drunks downtown would be a bit more realistic. These sorts of laws exist to give cops a way to bust people who are drunk and causing problems…unfortunately, they don’t do much at all about the drunks whether or not they’re guzzling a 12-pack and smashing the empties on the sidewalk for shits and giggles. I just wish the cops and people who could do something would give a damn occasionally. The enmity I feel towards the drunks who harrass me, my dog, smash glass everywhere, piss, poop and vomit anywhere they like and generally make the neighbourhood pretty skeezy at all times of the day and night is deep and wide.

If there is one single reason that stands out more than others in my reasons for wanting to escape this country it is the culture and tolerance and support of drunks and I don’t want to move to some suburban nowhere shithole to avoid them…not that it would make too much difference I suspect.

Tim73 – yeah, I get all my facts from Wikipedia….

hfb: you make it sound like there are so many drunks downtown. Yeah, there sure can be but I guess it depends on where and certainly when. It’s mostly the parks, I guess.

hfb: you make it sound like there are so many drunks downtown. Yeah, there sure can be but I guess it depends on where and certainly when. It’s mostly the parks, I guess.

It’s the same thing as with rotten tomatoes: You’re so used to them you don’t see them. Yet another finn living in denial.

But usually there are more drunks in say, Kallio, than downtown. Downtown most often I see them in parks. Helsinki is actually known to have relatively few parks for a capital city.

hfb, are you still planning on leaving this country, or whats your situation right now?

You know mh, you’re probably right. If I go to a very peaceful park downtown where I only encounter orderly young people enjoying a picnic, it’s true that I don’t really notice if it’s water or beer or wine they’re drinking. I don’t pay any attention to people who drink in a “civilized” manner in public. So I guess hfb sure is right about downtown: most days (even those places where I don’t see people who are drunk or alcoholics) I do encounter people who are having a beer outdoors.

Still I think drunks are concentrated in certain parks and certain parts of town and certain times of day (or certain festive occasions when there are drunken people everywhere). I have to agree with Phil that I find drunks disturbing but I don’t even notice people who are drinking a beer or two but who aren’t drinking to get drunk. If I saw Captain Haddock (of course I don’t know how drunk he gets in public) drinking outdoors, it could very well be that I wouldn’t even see what he’s drinking if he’d behave in an orderly manner.

Helsinkian – The drunks hard to miss down here. It’s not a matter of giving some people on a blanket enjoying some wine a breathalyzer test. Some evenings, I’m very, very happy that I have an enormous dog who barks and growls at the more obnoxious/creepy/possibly dangerous ones on the sidewalk. I suspect most of them are suburbanites who come into town to drink, make a mess, then go back to nowheremäki and wonder what all the fuss about drunks and rubbish downtown is about since they never see any.

Are you implying Helsinkian is a drunk?
Your ad hominems are getting tiring.

@27
[b]Captain Haddock…maybe you should come live downtown sometime and then perhaps the idea of benefits or attractive features to drunks downtown would be a bit more realistic. These sorts of laws exist to give cops a way to bust people who are drunk and causing problems..[/b]

You know what? Combating that via making consumption of alcohol in public illegal is extremely stupid. Why do you need to make such an insipid law? If someone is being disorderly and upsetting the peace, what does it matter if he is drunk, high on drugs or sober? All those things you describe are mostly illegal anyway!

MH – Uh…what? You guys toss around ‘ad hominem’ and ‘strawman’ without understanding what they mean or how they should be used.

Haddock – I didn’t make the law and, clearly, after several years it’s not like the law makes a difference where being drunk and obnoxious in public appears to be considered as much a right as picking berries or taking a sauna. The law might give cops a reason to arrest or detain someone who is visibly drunk and carrying around an open container…but, again, if you read the article the drunk and disruptive reporters drinking from beer bottles on the Esplanade couldn’t get a rise out of the cops so it’s pretty much a non-issue. But I’m all for any legislation that would decrease the number of drunken wasteoids around here.

Anonymous – why, you interested in a large downtown apartment in a scenic and colourful neighbourhood?

Let me rephrase without fancy words I don’t know how to use: Your suggestion that Captaing Haddock is pooping around downtown was an unwarranted personal insult and poor argumentation. After reading that kind of writings I suspect the worst of the writer and may have jumped to conclusions about your post to Helsinkian. Sorry for that. You seem bitter and tired nowadays and I hope for your own sake you get soon out of Finland.

The last time I was in Helsinki, 2003, a very young, very drunk young man came up to me and asked me for money. I pretended not to know Finnish and walked on. A little later, I saw him urinating in public. However, I’ll take this as a minor inconvenience compared to the States where I feel very unsafe in some big cities.

I kind of like the way the Danes deal with drunks. A few years ago in Copenhagen, I saw amubulances pick up drunk people leaving the bars at the wee hours of the morning. It is so much more civilized than having these people arrested, as they do in the States. And, I will vouch for the imprisonment rate here in the US. It is scandalous.

We all have our opinions on this matter, but perhaps one thing on which we can all agree: Love ‘em or hate ‘em, Finland’s got some of the best drunks in the world

Ok, I’ll admit, I don’t care for the loud weekend drinkers and litterers, but the ol’ timers were the best that Finland ever had to offer!

Just picture groups of old red-nosed men on a warm summer day, proudly sitting in their urine stained underpants, on park benches around the market square; complete with seafaring captain’s hats, smoking pipes and flasks of hard-won liquor.

At worst they’d lean-into you and babble some unintelligible gibberish and then scurry away laughing hysterically. Most were even kid-friendly and some mothers would let their youngsters interact with them–they’re people too, right?

And they didn’t litter much–at most they’d toss one-bottle-per-day of hard stuff into the bushes somewhere; it’s better than the remains of many 12-packs strewn throughout the park.

There was a time when I’d have supported them being declared as national treasures of Finland. But, unfortunately, they have short lifespans; so many are gone now.

Ahh, but those were the days…

I live in downtown Helsinki at the moment, in Etu-Töölö. I’m hard-pressed to find any pooping, peeing, or disorderly drunks there, save for the very occasional party-goer fumbling for their keys. I also jog around Töölönlahti and Merikannontie about three times a week, and the only drunkards I see there are the old school ones Kristian mentioned. Since they started renovating the park next to my sister’s apartment in Kamppi, the “park chemists” (as mixed users are fondly referred to) have disappeared from those parts, too.

I guess they all moved to the upper class neighborhood of Punavuori to bug American women and their dogs.

I do have to admit that the Koff park is pretty disgusting. But what do you expect, it being right next to the biggest drunkard- and homeless shelter in Helsinki? Despite its very recently acquired trendyness, Punavuori has not yet shed its drunken semi-criminal past.

Living in Punavuori and complaining about the drunkards is like living in New York City’s meat-packing district and complaining about all of the transvestite prostitutes.

Anzi – They supposedly just ‘renovated’ Koff park, too, not that you can tell most days. And what do I expect? Well…every park from Kaisaniemi, to Espa to Plague park to Koff have been teeming with drunk, littering, pissing jerks all summer long and it has totally gotten on my last nerve. I mean, if downtown Helsinki is meant to be a shithole for all the suburbanites to come trash on, that doesn’t mean civilised people living here are obligated to like it or not try to change that as who wants to live in an open toilet/landfill? People generally don’t shit where they sleep and the vast majority of people down here violating the area don’t live here. Then again, I have seen a neighbour in my building so drunk that he could barely stand or open the front door and watched as he pissed on the front door before he could get upstairs. Total class. I’d gladly take the tranny hookers from NYC to the drunks.

Kristian – The professionals are, indeed, harmless local colour. Unfortunately their number has dwindled around here and have been replaced with younger, more angry and annoying drunks possibly due to the long, warm and dry summer.

Nipsu – Denmark has fewer people, more money and a far more tolerant attitude towards loser drunks. There aren’t many pubs and bars in the states that will serve to the point of coma like a lot of places here seem to do. There are worse things than being left to sober up overnight behind bars then released and fined for public nuisance in the morning. Do you all get your misconceptions of US law enforcement from cop shows on TV, movies and wikipedia or something?

MH – When a Finn starts to use sarcasm with a retort that was never mine it’s a good sign that they are either far more bitter than me or at least way more bitchy about it. Yes, I’m angry that the hick attitude of ‘if you don’t like it here you can just fuck off’ seems to be the response to just about any observation that things here are not up to scratch with the tourist brochure copy. I came here with high hopes, an open mind and a lofty outlook. I even enjoyed living here for a little while. I will leave with some mixed feelings but mostly relief that I don’t have to spend the rest of my life here with the drunks while trying to convince myself how my ‘quality of life’ is so great. I used to wish the US had more social welfare programs….living here has changed my mind on that issue since even on this micro-scale, it is far less a solution than I had originally thought. I understand now, too, that the long-term expat Finns I know in the US are more like voluntary exiles and not representative of the larger population who leave for a lot of the same reasons I have. Hindsight is 20/20.

hfb: Anzi had a good point about some parts of downtown Helsinki being better. That’s my experience too. Old school professionals, sure once in a while but not so many of these angry young types that harass your dog.

Actually some of us think it’s a loss to our cultural scene that you move out of the country. But it’s nothing dramatic, people move and people come in. I don’t think anybody should be expected to live in one city all their lives or in one country. Sure you’re bitter now but maybe after you’ve moved out you’ll come to think of some stuff that was nice here. It ain’t all black and white…

hfb – You’ve lived here for, what, about 2-3 years now? According to studies that have mapped the adaptation process of expats and immigrants, the cultural adjustment process has six phases:
preliminary stage, initial euphoria, irritability, gradual adjustment, adaptation and biculturalism, and re-entry phase. The last one hits when you go back home and realise that going back takes adapting, too.

My guess is that you’re in the irritability phase which, according to this website has the following characteristics:

During the irritability phase you will be acclimating to your setting. This will produce frustration because of the difficulty in coping with the elementary aspects of everyday life when things still appear so foreign to you. Your focus will likely turn to the differences between the host culture and your home, and these differences can be troubling. Sometimes insignificant difficulties can seem like major problems.

Any thoughts? According to you, you have passed the preliminary stage and euphoria.

I have to add that although I snicker and roll my eyes at these exaggerated accounts of the hordes of drunken, pissing, and shitting raving drunks that have supposedly taken over Helsinki with the force of a George A. Romero -movie, I do profess to deeply loathing Finnish drinking habits, too. Pissing and vomiting all over the place and only drinking to get completely plastered is not acceptable behavior in my book.

But give me my old-school hobos over drug addicts and prostitutes any day.

And, like I said, if you live in Punavuori, be prepared to take it with its downsides. Drunkards and druggies have populated that part of town since forever. Any local can tell you that. Don’t move to the desert and then complain about the sand.

One Friday night (it was Helsinki Cruising Night and lots of people downtown who had come there for that) this dude was standing next to the stairs of the main government building Valtioneuvoston Linna (formerly known as the Senate Building) and pissing. I wondered if he had some kind of personal grudge against Vanhanen or if he had no clue as to whose doorstep he was pissing or how drunk he even was. Somehow I felt it might have been because of the special occasion, it’s not customary for folks to use the street at the main entrance to the main government building as a toilet (even if the streets are indeed understood to be toilets by many).

Of course, the dude pissing at the doorstep of the main government building may have done it to show off libertarian ideology…

Helsinkian – Some parts might be better, sure, but I don’t live there.

And people due piss just about anywhere….my personal favourite is when the drunk dudes from the bar up the street stand at the street corner and try to piss on cars passing by. And if you went to the Lordi concert…I think just about everyone I know who went mentioned the girl peeing in front diners in Hotel Kamp. I don’t think anywhere is sacred.

And I know you don’t quite understand just how…bizarre and gross this behaviour is. Seven days in Greece, home to plenty of alcohol for centuries, and not one staggering drunk, not one pissing drunk, nothing of that vein. It’s nice, it’s civilised, to not be confronted by that sort of thing each and every day. It’s not a matter of this neighbourhood or that neighbourhood, it’s deeply ingrained in the culture here.

And I don’t get how you all can scoff at the idea of drunks pooping down here when you leave the trail of logic that someone who can’t be bothered to find a toilet for peeing will miraculously get a conscience and find a toilet for taking a dump. For what it’s worth, I get the extra grossness of the dog finding such found treasures tasty. I’d expect that in a ghetto, not in a place that crows how clean and healthy it is. I don’t expect the frequency and the attitudes towards public excrement to change anytime soon. (Brown) Pearl of the Baltic.

Anzi – Almost 4 years actually. I think I’m past that stage, but I don’t want to become acclimated to the culture of drunks. Granted, I suppose that taxes paying for booze for short-lived drunks is preferrable to some things the US taxes pay for, but I don’t live in a war zone and am not forced to bear witness to the suffering as I am to the drunks. It’s depressing to see these people every day dying just a little bit more knowing that there is little or nothing to do for them except make sure there is a place in the ground for them. I had thought I had adjusted reasonably well but something changed sometime around March and there are just too many things, too many little things, that I can no longer shrug off. So many things are manic here…either totally on or totally off that I really can’t get used to as well. I’m deeply disappointed, I’ve got mixed feelings and am not entirely eager to return to the US, but all things considered, my discontents are/were fewer, or at least less critical back home.

hfb – I totally understand not wanting to become acclimated to the culture of drunks. Nobody expects you to. I’m a native and *I* have never gotten used to it, so how could I expect a non-native to do so!

It’s just so unbelievably immature and downright disgusting. For the life of me I cannot understand where the fun is in being plastered all over the place on a regular basis. It’s just pathetic. I do not understand why I should have to condone it, laugh about it, or shrug it off.

But when you talk about Helsinki like it’s one heap of reaking human excrement, I have to roll my eyes and say pah-lease. The amount of dog shit and trash on the streets of Brussels and Paris alone, not to mention Greece, make them far dirtier places than Helsinki. I get it that you’re disappointed and are therefore prone to verbal hyperboli, but let’s keep things in perspective, shall we?

#hfb your bigotry is so obvious, blatant generalizations (culture of drunks, thank you I’ll take that as a compliment) I can play that game too (usa culture of murder, drugs, slavery, missery, idiocy, torture, war-crimes and generalizations)

Anonymous: hfb has been pretty critical of her native USA. What’s wrong with this Finnish drinking topic? There are many things to be said about the drinking culture of Finland. I think it’s also an issue where many things have changed during the past decades and will change in the future. In what direction, it’s hard to tell.

hfb: Funny, I have also been in a similar situation. The older you are, the harder it is to adapt yourself to foreign culture and then some day, your own home country seems so nice and wonderful.

I think, learning the language really good is the key. Without it, you are pretty much left alone in the darkness and start sucking all those negative things to yourself (like drunks in your case).

You are now going through “why this country sucks and what are my excuses for leaving”-phase Blaming social programs and hypersensitivity towards drunks are just mental projections of your unhappiness. You did not learn the language, did you?

Many people seem to think that Finland’s drinking problem stems from its historical attempts to constrict availability of alcohol through high taxation–this is a view that’s commonly shared by many Finns, but mostly central Europeans.

Consider that in most of Europe, it’s possible to drink some beer or wine–each day–with dinner or at some pub. And it’s not obligatory to continue drinking to the point of stumbling or falling down! Really, overdoing it is only an option!

So why is Finland different? The theory goes like this:

In the recent past, alcohol prices were set artificially high (no surprise there). So, to economize, Finns would buy the strongest poison available. And, due to its ‘forbidden fruit’ appeal, Finns would drink it all at once, instead of rationing. There was a pure binge mentality.

For that matter, it would probably be difficult to drink only one shot of liquor with dinner–beer or wine goes down much better in most cases. However, beer and wine were overly-expensive here–not enough bang-for-the-buck…er, I mean Finnmark. Hence, Finland never developed a civilized drinking culture, such as in the rest of western Europe.

Anyone buy into this?

Anonymous: hfb has been pretty critical of her native USA. What’s wrong with this Finnish drinking topic?

I agree with her criticism wholeheartedly. My native Punavuori has always had its drunks, but apparently things have gotten worse in recent years. My dad is the caretaker of his apartment complex on Merimiehenkatu and frequently complains about the human trash who piss and shit in the back yard or the front doors. Unfortunately, there is a concrete rail in front of the doors that offers some privacy when using it as a toilet. One often has to take a deep breath before walking to the door. I’ve suggested installing surveillance cameras and am willing to assist with an inexpensive webcam-based solution.

That being said, what I find insulting is the allusion that by virtue of being Finnish, I endorse this behaviour, that shitting on the street is somehow fundamentally part of who I am. That’s what’s bordering on bigotry.

As far as I am concerned, there is little that I can do. I could get a baseball bat and start smashing some drunk skulls, but I think I’ll go with the parliamentary way and vote the city council candidate who advocates tougher measures. This route is also available to Mrs. hfb. IIRC, she can even be a candidate herself.

Anyone buy into this?

I definitely do. I think that one of the core problems with Finland’s alcohol policy is the way alcohol is perceived. Even though most people know how to use it in a civilized manner, it is still mainly seen as a means to get wasted. The concept of alcohol as a social beverage like coffee or tea, save for the “one beer after the sauna”, is sadly very foreign to most Finns. This leads to politicians like Liisa Hyysälä to see the alcohol in itself as the problem, and not the people drinking it. This leads to more useless bans and more useless restrictions which do nothing but increase the binge-drinking mentality.

I remember when the tax on alcohol was first lowered, there was a studio debate on TV on the subject. There were health care professionals, politicians, journalists, and others in the studio debating the pros and cons of the tax reform.

One lady who was for the tax reform told an interesting story. Apparently she belonged to a beer club/society, which was formed by people who were interested in beer and beer brewing, much like auto club members are interested in cars and sailing club members are interested in sailing. She said that she had interviewed for a job, and the job was as good as hers. The salary had already been negotiated and she had been told when she could start. Then the employer had asked about her hobbies and she mentioned the beer society. Silence had fallen in the room, and the next day the employer called her and said that the firm cannot hire her because of “her drinking problem”.

I think that sums up the general Finnish attitude towards alcohol pretty well.

Well, go to the UK and enjoy the company of real binge drinkers and those stupid street fights..or try Aussies. Group of germans somewhere south…oh boy. Finns are not THAT bad, just average europeans or westerners.

I do have to say that I also agree with tim73 a bit. Finns are bad, but to say that we’re the only ones who can’t hold our liquor is just pure nonsense.

One time this German guy I know wanted to fluff his own feathers and started ranting about the “disgusting Finnish drinkin habits” to me. He did so while gulping down a big Warsteiner and leaning on a railing because he couldn’t stand up straight anymore. He had to be carried home later on.

Weren’t the stomach pumps working overtime at British hospitals when pub opening hours were liberated a while back? I remember my friend who lives in London telling me that she had to practically hurdle jump over the vomiting and moaning bodies that had covered the streets during that weekend.

Anzi: that was a funny thing you told about the German guy. I also remember when I was at Swedish student parties years ago, a totally wasted Swede could come to me and lecture about Finnish drinking culture. It was hilarious to hear from folks who were wasted, and proud of their get-wasted-quick way of drinking. That’s stuff I never heard from a sober Swede.

Anzi–

“Silence had fallen in the room, and the next day the employer called her and said that the firm cannot hire her because of “her drinking problem”.

Ha! That’s funny! However, I’m not sure if I’d mention alcohol-related things anywhere in the world unless I already knew the people. But yeah, I definitely see your point; it’s big red flag (that was painted with a broad brush) here in Finland. I’m sure they pictured someone reporting to her new job smelling like a brewery

Of course the drunken Swedes were right about Finns on average consuming more alcohol than Swedes. Finns top Swedes in those statistics, whereas Swedes themselves are into snuff (snus). Swedish students may be very heavy drinkers but the rest of the Swedish society has less of a binge-drinking culture than Finland.

“I’ve suggested installing surveillance cameras and am willing to assist with an inexpensive webcam-based solution.”

Great, you can sell viewer subscribtions

“Finns top Swedes in those statistics…”

Of course, the statistics are almost irrelevant, unless we’re talking about binge-drinking statistics.

Interestingly, I’ve found that all eastern European countries I’ve experienced have hard-liquor, binge-drinking cultures–Poland, Czech R. Slovakia, Hungary, etc. Beer and wine were considered ‘inefficient means’ in all of them, due to general resource scarcities of Communism. Hard liquor was always easiest for government to provide and most efficient for people to acquire.

Now, beer is easy, but the drinking-culture has already been established. Hence, puking and pissing, just like in Finland. It’ll take a generation or two before things normalize, I suppose.

C’mon Kristian, you can’t be serious. Czechs and Slovaks may like to get drunk but Czechs generally prefer beer and Slovaks prefer wine. Of the four countries you mentioned, Poles are known for drinking hard liquor. When it comes to Hungary’s wine vs. hard liquor, my bet would definitely be that they prefer wine. You’re of course talking about Communism and maybe it was different then but really the Czechs are and were big on beer, Communism or no Communism. Your description I guess goes for Poland and certain parts of the former Soviet Union.

I guess one of the biggest shocks (though not for the Brits, Dutch, or Germans) about Finnish drinking culture is that women and girls drink as much as the men do.

I’ve hung out with some Croatian students and the guys in that group were big drinkers. Girls, however, sat in bars all prim and proper and drank Coca Cola all the while frowning on the beer-drinking Finnish, Dutch, and German girls. Everybody did pot, though. Talk about hypocrisy.

Anzi–it’s very simple: Pot unites!

Helsinkian–yes, you’re absolutely right–they are historically beer and wine cultures. But during Communism, there were no resources to produce and distribute beer and wine–after all, they had to build tanks and such…and lots of money went into those propaganda parades, I suppose. Russia did lots of ‘supplying’ in those days.

I’ve spent a good portion of the past 5-years sitting on my bicycle and riding through some very remote areas of eastern Europe–as well as cities of course. Hard liquor habits are alive and well–even with some younger people. Beer and wine is starting to replace it, but it seems the binge habits still exist (within a beer/wine context).

Kristian, apparently you’re right about consumption of hard liquor in Communist Hungary.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-5816.html

“As of 1986, consumption of alcohol per person per year was 11.7 liters; consumption of hard liquor (4.8 liters per person) was the second highest in the world.”

If those statistics are accurate, Hungarians did drink more alcohol in other forms than in hard liquor but they had a very high consumption of hard liquor in those days.

In any case, my guess about even today’s Hungary would be that Hungarians drink a lot and not just in binges and they drink equally wine and hard liquor. Hungarian alcoholism and suicide rates are known to be higher than in Finland.

Still, it gives the wrong impression on Hungarian drinking culture that they only binge drink hard liquor. It’s not at all such a dichotomy there as in Scandinavia, where binge drinking hard liquor is seen as the local tradition and the Central European wine culture doesn’t have as long traditions as in wine countries such as Hungary and Slovakia.

By the way, East Germany didn’t go to hard liquor like its eastern neighbors. Maybe it’s because economic conditions were better there. But like everything else (produce, household goods,etc.) beer wasn’t always the easiest to acquire either. But somehow they managed to keep binging under control.

There’s a stark–albeit slowly disappearing– difference between eastern Germany and its Slavic countries next door. When I rolled-into a remote Slavic town at 3-am, the first sound was always: UUUAAAAAACHHHH! Barfing all night long. Not so in eastern Germany–never, actually.

Kristian, I still don’t believe that the Czechs didn’t have the resources to produce beer in Communist days. Czechs have always been huge beer drinkers and that’s something they did even in communist times. If there was a high in hard liquor consumption then, that’s possible but the Czech culture is an extreme and legendary beer culture with few rivals in Europe.

Russians consume a whole lot of hard liquor and they do it in also in binges, although I guess they drink hard liqour also more on weekdays than Scandinavians do. Russia has a gigantic health problem with an absolutely sky-high rate of alcoholism. The alcoholism problem in the Czech Republic is not comparable to that of Russia’s and I believe the Czechs drink more in absolute terms than the Russians do. It’s the hard liquor culture that is absolutely disastrous to the life expectancy of Russian males and that has a lot to do with what happened during Communism and how it was easy to provide the Russian people with vodka then.

Kristian: I fully agree with what you say about Poland, that their hard liquor consumption rose strongly in Communist times and was especially high then. But Poland always was a hard liquor culture (like Russia and Finland), although not as extreme before Communism as under Communism.

http://www.polishvodka.pl/

http://www.ejpau.media.pl/volume7/issue2/economics/art-06.html

From a summary of a survey on the current situation of alcohol consumption in Poland:

“Both statistical data and the results of the survey indicate reveal that alcohol consumption is wide spread in Poland. However: in the period of the last dozen or so years changes in the quantity and the structure of consumption were observed. The most popular and the most frequently consumed alcohol is currently beer, particularly among young people. Older respondents seem to prefer wine and vodka.”

Sorry about the extra “indicate” word in the survey summary quote.

The Polish vodka website tells that over the centuries the peasantry used to drink vodka, whereas vodka had a low status among the gentry who preferred beer, mead and imported Hungarian wine.

Kristian: here’s one more source for you on communist Czechoslovakia:

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3764.html

As far as I can see the beer consumption was huge in both the Czech and Slovak parts of the country, but sky-high in the Czech lands. Wine consumption was slightly higher in Slovakia (in neither part of the country close to the beer consumption). Czechs are known to produce beer and Slovaks wine.

In hard liquor consumption during the latter part of the communist era, it was *twice* as high among Slovaks as Czechs.

I hope this shows that the Czechs were never anywhere close to the hard liquor habits of their Polish, Slovak or Hungarian neighbors and their beer consumption was absolutely enormous even in communist times.

Czechs may be Slavs but I suppose their drinking patterns were closer to that of their East German neighbors.

Let’s retract a little: Kristian’s point about Czechs and Slovaks getting drunk much more under Communism than before it was absolutely accurate. But that the Czechs would not have had access to beer because of communism is not true. Their drinking patterns were such that they drank beer all the time and were drunk on the job on weekdays.

“indicate” — no problem, I’m not with the writing police

Well, maybe the Czechs/Slovaks were hybrid drinkers then. I too doubt they’d lost all capacity to produce and distribute beer. However, I’ve read about many small breweries that reopened after
Communism–some were highly publicized. It makes me think that beer production was affected during that period–or it was just highly centralized.

In any case, I definitely think that hard liquor consumption spiked during Communism–much was due to the ease of acquiring it, but perhaps also because of Russia’s cultural influence.

I lived almost right on the border of both Poland and Czech R–could almost see the Czech border from my window on the 10th floor (it was obstructed by a small mountain range). All of my colleagues were former East Germans and I had acquaintances who were former Czechoslovakians.

My knowledge of life back then is based on almost daily discussions with them–everything from Communist youth organizations to bartering Trabant or Skoda parts for roofing tar. And also the drinking differences between Germans and Slavs. Most still live it in their minds, so those discussions were hard to avoid.

#50
helsinkian

obviously you missed my point. I too hate the disorderly drunks who harass people but I don’t generalisize a whole nation of people because of few individuals like hfb is clearly doing. Thats why I added the comment about usa for it being a culture of torture murder etc. etc. you get my drift.

It’s okay to critisize there are a lot of things in finland that need improvement but painting a picture that all of the finns are somekind of street poopers etc. would be same as me saying that all americans are torture loving psychopaths.

Kristian: Czechs have a German-style drinking culture (maybe it should be called Czech-style as the Czechs are alongside the Irish the leading beer culture in Europe) and Poles, Slovaks and Hungarians more Slavic-style (as Finns and Estonians also are, should we call it Slavo-Ugric?).

Yes, hard liquor was drunk in large quantities in Communist times in East Central Europe. But in Czechoslovakia, it was the beer consumption that was absolutely gigantic. And some of the online sources say that Hungarian beer consumption dropped by a third in the decade after communism. Hungary certainly changed from wine country to hybrid drinking country under Communism. In Poland, the change of the culture has happened *after* communism, from hard liquor country to beer country. Poland is probably on the way toward a German drinking culture now.

Anyway, we shouldn’t go overboard with all this public pissing. Speaking of which, I just went to the Kauppatori, stood on the edge of the wharf and pee-d into the ocean. Did anyone see me? Probably. There were plenty of Japanese tourists with cameras, and I’m sure at least one of them snapped me handling the ol’ yogurt cannon.

Of course, if this had been in the US, the Piss Police would have jumped into action and arrested me for public indecency or maybe even some trumped-up charge, like endangering the welfare of children. I sure hope Finland never over-reacts in this fashion.

I don’t see anything wrong with peeing on a tree in the park (as long as nobody else is sitting against it) or finding some other object in nature. This is very different from going in a doorway somewhere in the city.

But hey, like I stated in a previous post, Helsinki causes its own problem by not providing accessible places to pee.

hfb:

I don’t get my views on American law enforcement from TV. Actually, I am a criminal defense attorney here in the States, so my experience is a little more vast than you suggest.

Actually, I am a criminal defense attorney here in the States,

Ha! No you’re not. You’re just one of the drunks just pretending to be part of the human kind. I trust hfb any time more than you. She’s shown some true objectivity here. Or can anyone deny that the true core values of the Finnish culture revolve around getting wasted and then shitting in public? Of course you can’t. This is after all a culture of drunks, as hfb objectively pointed out. And take your bigotry regarding the USA somewhere else. Me and hfb can’t stand those bigoted generalizations you’ve learned on TV.

#81

Tim73 – Yes, I did learn the language.

Nipsu – A criminal defesne attorney wasting billable hours on this place? You’re either unemployed or bored.

Freeridin’ – Glad someone else sees this shit besides me. I suppose the frustration is just that….that I feel at a loss to do anything and the problem just seems to get worse and worse all the time. I suppose if I were staying I might contemplate some government role, but even then I get the feeling that resistance to dealing with the problem would be insurmountable.

And to those who bristle at my blaming the culture, yes, I feel pretty comfortable blaming a culture that, just an hour ago, walks past without noticing a dude pooping in the Helsinki Tech yard for all the world to see while a few Asian tourists gape in horror for a moment before gladly moving on. They didn’t take pictures. It’s absolutely grotesque. That I even have to argue that it is, in fact, a problem…a frequent problem, is a pretty good sign that nobody wants to deal with it and hopes that by ignoring it that it will go away. Nobody wants to talk about the alcohol problems or the high rate of domestic violence, etc…but it isn’t going to go away.

Oh, and Krisitan, the public toilet/urinals are free for guys.

hfb –

You say you’ve learned the language but you still claim to need English-language guides and signs after almost four years. Can you read a newspaper or watch the news with ease?

What do you mean that nobody wants to talk about alcohol problems and domestic violence? It’s constantly all over the media, most recently when the young politician from Jämsä was murdered by her husband.

Don’t you find it the least bit ridiculous that you have made this pissing and pooping thing into such a big deal? You seriously act as if you have never witnessed this type of behavior anywhere else. I find that very hard to believe from a woman who says that she also has British citizenship. BTW, how can a white, English-speaking woman know what it is like to be a foreigner in Britain? I’m curious.

What also bothers me is that you throw around these allegations about Finns not bothering to see problems in their country and not doing anything about it, yet you refuse to listen to any opinions that might make you rethink the position. Whenever someone has talked about their own experiences in foreign countries that have given them perspective on things, you accuse them of “going off on tangents” or just shrug it off and belittle it. As if the fact that they’re Finnish makes them automatically biased. You seem to be so blinded by this piss-poop -thing and your own expectations crumbling down that you can’t see the forest from the trees.

You claim to have gone past the “irritability” phase of cultural adjustment. I don’t believe you. You sure have perfected the exaggeration of insignificant difficulties.

Based on these so-called discussions, I have actually a picture in my head of a sour-faced woman with her big dog playing a real-life FPS video game against mean drunkards who attempt to drown her in their piss and smother her with their poo on a daily basis.

How does your husband and his family feel like when you say that they are all essentially drunken poopsters? Are they flattered or don’t they care?

This pooping thing necessarily needs a poll to be settled. You know, from “I’ve never seen it” to “often” – and perhaps one specially for hfb: “several times a day wherever I go, honestly”.

Anzi: passport or not, if an American moves to Britain, of course there is a big cultural difference. Being a foreigner is not only about language.

Interestingly enough, Britain is a nation with a combined drinking and drug problem. In Finland there’s to some extent still this thinking that thank God our youth prefer drinking to taking drugs.

After reading hfb’s rants I’ve come to think she’s either a poop magnet or there is a conspiracy among FfT Finns who decide to take a dump everytime they see hfb approaching .

I recently moved back to Finland (roughly eight months ago) and I haven’t witnessed a single pooping even though I live in downtown and frequently roam around Kamppi/Esplanadi/Hietaniemi/Kaisaniemi/Ruoholahti.

I lived for three years in Vancouver, the winner of countless “the best place to live” & “best quality of life” awards, but even with those it has its own share of problems. I haven’t been pestered by homeless people for money in Helsinki yet, but in Vancouver downtown it was a constant nuisance… Prostitutes frequently roamed the nightime streats around Granville street bars.

There actually was a documentary on the Vancouver drug problem yesterday in YLE. Check http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-113255592626130769 for a crappy quality copy of it. For hfb, there’s public peeing about 13:30 minutes into it .

Helsinki is roughly a same size city as Vancouver. I rather have some drunks than those drugheads to deal with. Helsinki is definitely not perfect place to live, but not the ignorant poop city hfb claims it to be.

Anzi – No, I never claimed to need english language guides…I complained that museums often have tags in no other language but Finnish or Swedish since tourists do come from other parts of the world.

Having stories in the media is not the same as people actually talking about it and doing something about it instead of assuming that the government will take care of it.

And, again, what’s so hard to accept that every time I have seen this sort of behaviour, people actively look away. In a culture where staring doesn’t seem to be a problem, I find the lack of outrage and social shaming for such lowlifes to be acceptance for the behaviour. Laws don’t change that sort of thing. Maybe they’ll move to your neighbourhood and you too can share in the joy that is an open public sewer. I mean, if it’s no big deal, then I suppose you won’t mind it much.

My husband is embarrassed, sorry he brought me here and wants to go back to the US possibly even more than I do.

Helsinkian – I have always been curious how alcohol is not considered to be a drug with as many social problems as narcotics and other drugs have. Stoners seem to have far fewer problems yet pot is considered a ‘drug’ whereas drinking yourself into a coma is just another friday night entertainment.

Zark – maybe you missed Freeridin’ Franklin’s comment or even Phil’s story about watching a guy take a dump at the main Espoo bus terminal in Tapiola a while back. I think every expat I know has a story of seeing someone take a dump.

But, fuck it you know….it won’t be my problem much longer.

hfb,

No I haven’t missed that, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen at all. I just don’t think it is constantly raining poop or that urine would be flowing down the streets everytime I go out for a walk.

“it won’t be my problem much longer”
Hope you find a nice suburb without any problems.

They already did live in my neighborhood. In Paris. Did I already tell you about the metro stations that reaked of piss and the druggies and homeless people that lived on my street? Fun times.

In Turku my place is next to hobo central. I often have to resist the urge not to kick those idiots sleeping on the street, especially during summer.

And as you very well know since I have said it over and over again, I deeply despise that type of behavior, in Finland or anywhere else. It’s a deeply rooted attitude problem that needs a lot of work. And as we Finns are not exactly known for our habit to storm the streets, it’ll take a while. But if we’ve been able to bring down suicide statistics, then why not pissing and pooping in public?

Maybe alcohol isn’t considered a drug because then it would be illegal. What would that do to the economies of several EU countries? We all also know how well prohibition worked.

I find a lot of visitors’ and expatriates’ shocked gaping about the drunkards in Finland to often be incredibly hypocritical.

We have the drunks, they have the drug-addicts, but somehow drug-addicts are considered to be better than drunks. Either that or the problem back home suddenly goes away when going abroad, and then you can make yourself feel superior by rolling your eyes and shaking your head. Afterwards you go home and when you are standing at the metro station while someone shoots up heroin next to you (happened to me in Paris), you can reassure yourself with a “hey, at least they go a bit further into the tunnel to take a dump.” and continue feeling better about your existance.

@Anzi

“Based on these so-called discussions, I have actually a picture in my head of a sour-faced woman with her big dog playing a real-life FPS video game against mean drunkards who attempt to drown her in their piss and smother her with their poo on a daily basis.”

Now that’s almost the funniest comment I’ve seen yet. Ewww

But this is even funnier…

@hbf–

“And to those who bristle at my blaming the culture, yes, I feel pretty comfortable blaming a culture that, just an hour ago, walks past without noticing a dude pooping in the Helsinki Tech yard for all the world to see while a few Asian tourists gape in horror for a moment before gladly moving on. They didn’t take pictures. It’s absolutely grotesque.”

hbf–I’m sorry, but I find that description absolutely hilarious! Most Finns–my relatives and acquaintances included–would also find it a riot. That includes some of my elderly female relatives, for that matter. Maybe I’m just a simple-minded person who gets kicks from simple things…

I’m not trying to piss you off… er, I mean, _aggravate_ you by asking this; but why can’t you just find humor in it too?

And as far as peeing facilities… Sure, if they put some simple urinals in strategic locations, then at least the peeing problem would be lessened. But no, the sight of men going to some metal or masonry contraption to relieve themselves just wouldn’t be right for this proper city of Helsinki. Better they just use the doorways.

Afterwards you go home and when you are standing at the metro station while someone shoots up heroin next to you (happened to me in Paris), you can reassure yourself with a “hey, at least they go a bit further into the tunnel to take a dump.”

And since opiates cause constipation, heroin addicts take a dump less frequently anyway – as long as they’re not going cold turkey. Perhaps herein lies the solution.

Then again, while human excrement is certainly off-putting, I’m not too enthusiastic about used syringes either. Here people’s experiences differ as well: while some claim that they’re everywhere, I’ve spotted exactly one in Helsinki in all my time here. They’re easy to find in many other European cities.

@93

Here’s what I’m talking about…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xman/40723451/

Or better yet…

http://mirror-us-ga1.gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/toilets/_more2002/_more12/Netherlands-Amsterdam-pissoir-street-urinal-2-DHD.jpg

@95

Uncomplicated.

Kristian… I don’t know what’s funny about daily finding people who have so little self-respect that they’ve been reduced to taking a shit in broad daylight in full view of anyone who cares to look. No. Or people who can’t be bothered to find a urinal. We went to dinner with a friend the other night (not from Finland) and, gosh, he had to take a piss while walking around town but managed some bladder control until we passed a public toilet in spite of my encouraging him to feel free to piss anywhere in town just like the locals.

Freeridin’ – On the other hand, the hops in beer is a mild laxative.

hfb,

I have lots of anecdotal evidence as well.

We went to see a free concert a while back in the Esplanad Park and I had to take a piss while walking around Esplanad. I managed to have some bladder control until we got to a restroom in a nearby cafe. The other Finn I was with used the facilities as well.

I have anecdotes of drug addicts injecting themselves to the lip while walking in downtown Vancouver. I have witnessed public injections in London (and a lot of public peeing as well) while living there.

I’ve been deeply disgusted on the lax attitude some Americans&Canadians had towards drunk driving. Never in Finland have I seen so many people driving to a party or to a pub, drinking four/five pints and then expecting to drive home! Quite often the local Swedes/Finns were the only ones arriving&leaving by Taxi and no, it wasn’t only the Finns getting blastered at the local brewery . Maybe it was the small chance of getting caught as some states/provinces don’t even have breathlyzer tests – the cops just look you in the eyes and make a small verbal test. You have to be pretty drunk and reek of alcohol to fail that.

Anzi has pretty much captured my thinking on the Finnish problems and I do share the same despise on the public urination etc. I just don’t think generalizing too much or going totally overboard is really helping here.

hfb: 1919 to 1932 was the period in Finnish history known as the Prohibition. Interestingly enough it coincided with US Prohibition, which started the same year and lasted one year longer (1919-1933).

Why alcohol is not treated as a drug, it’s because of the Finnish people. Prohibition was repealed after a national referendum in 1932. Alcohol certainly was treated as a drug and that’s why it was illegal for those years. That was a period of violent crime in Finnish history and gangsters were glamorized and glorified. Still some people consider Prohibition-era gangsters as heroes. Prohibition didn’t work but ultimately it was the Finnish people that decided so. It was a too hot issue for politicians. Only two national referenda were held in 20th Century Finland, the one on alcohol in 1932 and the other one on joining the EU in 1994.

Temperance movement was very strong in 19th Century Finland and come the early part of the 20th Century, it was the victory of that movement to get Prohibition in place. The Finnish people was divided on the issue. It was common that some people were unreservedly positive about alcohol and others were as adverse as can be. Sure, only 30% voted to keep Prohibition in place but my guess would be that not drinking at all was far more common in the Finland of interwar era than it is today. I guess the attitudes toward women drinking have changed the most over the decades. Also religiosity (and the dwindling importance of it) is key to this issue. Many of the leading preachers of the 19th Century had especially been preaching about the evils of alcohol (Swedish priest Lars Levi Laestadius as one of the best known among them, he attracted a strong following in Finland) and the negative attitude toward alcohol also reached a high point when these evangelical movements were the most influential.

In the past, religious people often didn’t drink and the drinking of women was either seen as less desirable or at least expected that they’d drink less than men. Today alcohol is as accepted for women as it is for men and my guess would be that those who abstain do it as often for health reasons than for religious reasons.

So it’s no wonder that in today’s world a society like Saudi Arabia has such strong laws against alcohol; the underlying reason for Prohibition is religious and the women are less liberated there.

One more thing hfb: at the time when alcohol was illegal in Finland, morphine was legal. According to the Finnish wikipedia article on morphine, you could buy it freely from the pharmacy and morphine was more commonly used in Finland than in other European countries on average.

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morfiini

In Prohibition-era US the morphine situation was different, as it had already in 1914 become illegal to possess morphine without prescription.

@99,
I wish there were more precise terms available. ‘Drug’ can be used to mean all kinds of medications, too, and Finnish ‘huume’ is misleading as e.g. hallucinogenics and stimulants are not narcotic. ‘Controlled substance’ is legalese and only applies to the stuff that’s already banned or restricted.

We went downtown tonight to check the annual fireworks championships. Naturally, this happening has evolved into an excuse for every teenage fuckhead from the nowheremäkis along the main track to come downtown, scream and yell, smash bottles and piss everywhere. As we were walking by the public toilet next to the Russian embassy, we noticed one asshole pissing on its wall. Just couldn’t wait. There wasn’t even much of a queue. So I doubt that an increase in public toilets would help. Damn, I wish I’d had my camera.

My girlfriend informed me that the latest issue of the women’s magazine Me Naiset has four suggestions for controlling the problem:

(bad translation follows)

1) The Puppy method
A man caught urinating is grabbed firmly from the neck and his nose is rubbed into the puddle, repeating in an angry tone: “No, Reiska. Not like that. Bad Reiska.”

2) The Mother-method
Call the urinator’s mother and tell her what her boy is doing. If he has a grandmother, call her also.

3) The Shame-method
Pass a law that states that men who have two inches or less may freely urinate on the street.

4) The Utopian method
Increase the number of public toilets in the centre.

Seriously, I’ve been thinking that hfb is being oversensitive, but I was ready to revoke my citizenship at the sight of the herd of apes in Kaivopuisto.

Okay then Finnish culture is public urination, coma-drunks, and of course the favourite entertaiment of finns pooping in the streets.

American culture is shooting drugs on broad daylight, torture, gun-related murders (over 11 000 per year), theocracy and bible-thumbing, and of course generalizations.

Isn’t this mature or what people.

hfb, my advice to you is grow the fuck up (what are you twelve? or are you one of those gated-community type of people who are afraid that the ‘darkies’ and all-sort-of-unwanted-trash will come along trying to rape and robbe you ‘better-than-them-folks’)

I’m quite certain that finns don’t approve this type of behaviour neither is it part of their culture. This juvenile generalization is pointless.

I’m sorry if your life is so ‘hard’ here maybe when you move out of this land of street poopers and drunks who try to piss all over you, you’ll find some better place where anything like this doesn’t happen (maybe a gated-community perhaps?)

Well people now that hfb so kindly pointed out the culture of Finland, I guess I shall drink myself to coma and then poop on the streets of Punavuori so that I can be a true finn. I hope to see all of you cultured people there too.

hfb: well, fuck off and soon. I hope you and your lame shit husband have a fucking wonderful time at soon-to-be banana republic USA. It ain’t gonna last long before the fat lady sings and you guys are trying to get the hell out.

Obviously hfb isn’t going to take her husband along. And who can blame her? How embarrasing would it be back in the civilized world with a husband always drunk, emptying his bowel or bladder in the middle of that tidy American street. Even the crazy lady would be shocked.

Or woud she? There seems to a lot of Finns already in the USA. Why would public urinating otherwise be a big problem?

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2004/02/02-16-04tdc/02-16-04dnews-04.asp

Killing people is of course much more socially acceptable, a minor problem and something to get easily used to:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/12/D8IQH9P05.html

With those kinds of murder rates I wouldn’t be surprised if hfb’s husband refused to move to the USA.

Geez, aren’t we being a bit harsh on hbf?

I mean, it’s just her opinion. I’m sure we’ve all been bothered by certain unpleasant things in our lives and complained about them. This is just her turn, for now.

I had MY turn at complaining last year when I still lived in Germany. Each day held potential conflict with some asshole who wanted to inform me (or anyone else) of certain rules or laws that he didn’t feel were being followed.

Not just old guys; young guys would do this too!

For example, if I cross a railroad track (with my bicycle) against the red blinkers (even though the train hasn’t come in 15-minutes) then it’s “That’s 3-points of your driver’s license young man!”

But hooligans on public transit or graffiti everywhere: That’s perfectly OK! Seriously, people in *some* parts of Germany still have problems coming to grips with that authoritarianism of the past. I complained worse than hbf and couldn’t wait to leave.

For me, Finland is the perfect opposite of Germany. Perhaps people here are a bit anal expulsive–figuratively and literally! But I’ll take that any day, compared to things in other places I’ve experienced.

And don’t even get me started about the US

No-one is more interested about the doings of their neighbor and more eager to tell them how to live their lives like a German is. I have to agree with Kristian on that one, having lived in a nice German suburb for a year. My goodness, the amounts of pointing and shaking fingers that I saw.

I also do not think that the answer to immaturity and broad, borderline racist, generalisations is more immaturity, foul language, and broad generalisations. So hfb is not happy here and she has made this pissing and pooping -thing to be her main source of unhappiness. Hey, it happens! Not everyone is cut out for the Finnish way of life.

Freeridin’ – Yeah…saturday morning was a delight to take the dog through the vast amount of broken glass on the sidewalk and the sleeping drunks in the park before the cops arrived to cart them off. Big public events generally have this effect on the area down here. Just wait for that Lordi concert in Kaivopuisto next week.

As for the rest of you…my bewilderment at how being upset and indignant at the people who crap in my hood daily could be such a difficult thing for you to understand was somewhat explained by my husband that it’s just as difficult for hicks in the sticks back home when confronted with a reality they work hard to ignore. Yes, there are worse things but the topic was the drinkers and drunks.

And anonymous – as I’ve said, my husband is as eager, if not moreso, to leave as I am.

You just don’t get it do you, hfb?

We do not have problems understanding your indignation on the peeing and pooping drunks. Most of us here are just as upset about it as you are. You are very well aware of this because this has been said in several posts time and time again. You just seem to conveniently ignore it for reasons that I do not and probably will never understand.

Our problem, or at least my problem, is with your way of seeing all Finns as alcoholic low-lifes, and yet talking in other threads about how unaccepting and racist Finns are. That somehow it is OK for you to make these crude and rude generalisations, and we just have to take it lying down with a smile on our faces.

My personal problem with you is that I think that you’re being a self-righteous hypocrite.

I think there is a large minority of people, in Finland, that qualifies as alcoholics and nuisance drunks. But the rest of us, in Dr. Phil speak, might be termed as the ‘enablers.’

One thing maybe worth considering… Helsinki is a harbor city. It’s hardly uncommon for this type of unruliness to occur in other places with similar geographies and backgrounds. Places like Amsterdam and Hamburg readily come to mind.

Plastered on the side of a tram in Amsterdam, I remember seeing a big hotel advertisement that read:

“Newly renovated, private baths and even more dog shit in the doorway than before!”

Obviously, people in port cities have a sense of humor about this kind of stuff. Of course, it helps that it rains almost daily in A’dam …that is, to clean-away all the shit. heh heh.

And in Hamburg, we have the Reeperbahn with all its brothels and heroin addicts. Well, as someone already mentioned, Punavuori once had the same flair. I guess seediness doesn’t always give-way to trendiness; or at least some vestiges always remain.

Interestingly, Reeper–which means rope, as rope-manufacturing once co-existed with brothels on the Reeperbahn–sounds a lot like Rööperi, which is a Finnish nickname for Punavuori. No connection though…I assume.

Anyway, I like all these sorts of places, but they get on my nerves if I spend too much time there. That’s when I know it’s time for a trip into the countryside

Rööperi comes from the Swedish name ‘Rödberg’ (Red Rock, heh) for the area, but hey, ‘Köydenpunojankatu’ (Ropemaker’s street) is very close at Hietalahti.

Isn’t the classical harbour lay-out approximately: Docks-tattoo salon-brothel-bar.

@113

Yes, the basic essentials