It’s quite interesting how many of that 5 Finns have any christian values or live like a christian.

I wonder how many of them goto church often? And even less, how many goto church in the Helsinki area?

From what I’ve seen, people only belong to the church so they can 1) get married in the church 2) get their kids baptized in the church 3) get a burial in the church. And i think most importantly – so their family won’t be disappointed with them

It’s quite interesting how many of that 5 Finns have any christian values or live like a christian.

Correction: american christian values. If american can’t believe without going to church, doesn’t mean we can’t.

Most Finns belong to the church because they’re too lazy to resign from it. Belonging or not belonging to the church is actually quite an non-issue in Finland. There are very few practical issues concerning it and there are no stigma’s around it. Save for some small villages up north and in Ostrobothnia, no one really gives a damn.

I actually know quite a few people who have resigned from the church and no-one’s family has given them any heat for it.

Christian values? Like oppressing and tormenting people and shunning them if they’re different and kicking them out of the community and threatening their lives?

Finland is a nation of “habitual christians”, ie. people whose day-to-day life is not very affected by religion but who retain a basic respect towards christian values and traditions.

There are exceptions – the urban south certainly is very secular, but there are rural regions that are very religious indeed. I fear that religion will be seen in ethnic-cultural terms as immigration increases and used for exclusion. The church itself is very mild in every respect trying desperately to appease both the conservative factions and the secular mainstream simultanously, only to end up usually insulting both.

Phil, I don’t think the ‘religious education’ in the public schools in Finland would be any different than, say, a private Catholic school as I’ve read a few stories about Muslims and parents of children with other religions petitioning and winning separate teachers for their kids. If it were pantheologic survey/education, that likely wouldn’t be necessary.

I do find it a very odd contradiction that so many Finns wish to have that education in the public schools instead of the church where it belongs. I don’t think I know a single Finn who attends church…ever, not even on holidays.

Well, the teaching is still I believe “tunnustuksellinen”, denominational (?), meaning that Lutheranism gets a preferred treatment. The textbooks certainly are very neutrally informative these days, but much is up to the individual teacher who can be very religious with sometimes even quite extreme views. Or then not. I myself know dozens and dozens of church going Finns coming from the Pietist/Evangelical Southern Ostrobothnia, but things are different in Helsinki where it is some sort of an eccentric aberration, sometimes forgiven, sometimes not. I would certainly raise any of my (prospective) children as church members though being basically an agnostic (though with certain mystical Pietist inclinations and sympathies).

When I went to school, a big part of the religion classes, especially in grade school, were about teaching the principles of the Bible and the Lutheran religion. It was not religious teaching per se, but we were taught the basic prayers (“Our Father who art in heaven…”) and rites, their history, and biblical history. Later on, in junior high and high school/lukio, the teaching became more general and we started to learn about world religions. We visited the Orthodox church in Helsinki, and even learned the moslem confession of faith. We also learned about different cults and religious movements and discussed the meaning of religion in general.

This was for the kids who belonged to the church or whose parents had given them permission to attend these classes. The kids who did not belong to the church (and were therefore always exempt from the stupid early morning christmas mass, lucky bastards) took a class called “elämänkatsomustieto” or “life philosophy”, where they were taught subjects like ethics and philosophy, but also the basics of the most important world religions. My school also offered orthodox classes since a couple of kids in my grade were orthodox.

I attended a Catholic school as a kid in Belgium and I can tell you that, at least in my school, the Finnish religion classes were nothing like the religious indoctrination they were in that Brussels suburban school. Finnish classes were about teaching the principles of religion, not about making people religious.

I do find it a very odd contradiction that so many Finns wish to have that education in the public schools instead of the church where it belongs.

I think it’s useful to learn about world religions, such as “These quacks believe this…”, “Those lunatics believe that…” etc.. If there’s a billion weirdos who believe something, I should at least know about it.

But learning prayers in school…?!?! Nooooo!!!!!

Phil – Sure, that’s taught in most schools…well, at least it used to be in the public schools…as part of the sociology/civics curriculum. I don’t know that learning about other religions from a text book mostly written by white male xtians makes you any more tolerant or understanding of them. In the wisdom of Mr. Twain, “Familiarity breeds contempt….” and “I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”

Anzi – It may not be quite the same as Catholic religious education, but as the state religion, I’m sure it’s still religious indoctrination of a sort.

“And as we know, ignorance breeds intolerance.”

The opposite may sometimes be true.

I’m an atheist, but I still studied religion in school because it was interesting. There was nothing religious about the classes, and we certainly didn’t learn any prayers there. So you don’t have to believe in God to study religion.

What is more interesting is that most of the people still support the unfair church taxes. This is something that I think will change in the future. There’s no way that people of my generation (or younger) are going to vote for such taxes.

Phil & Nirva: I didn’t learn prayers, either. Just the one, the “Our father”, and the confession of faith or whatever it’s called in English. We also learned the main preayers and confessions of faith of other world religions.

And maybe I only learned it because I have a memory which is equipped to remember stuff like that. I still remember the Pledge of Allegiance from when I was 5 years old and my family lived in the States for a year, and many nursery rhymes. I have never had any practical usage of these passages in my life, and have gone for years without even thinking about them, but I can still cite them at the drop of a hat. I am weird in that way.

hfb:
It’s not really religious indoctrination. Religion was just treated as a class among others in my school, and the kids who didn’t belong to church were in no way discriminated against. The only time we went to church was the mandatory Christmas mass one day before we got out report cards and left for the Christmas holidays, which was just an excuse to get out of school for the rest of the day and go Christmas shopping. People did go to confirmation camp etc., but mostly because their friends did, too and it was a good excuse to have a party, get gifts, and drink champagne for the first time with your parents’ permission. The kids who didn’t belong to church went to Prometheus-camp, a non-religious philosophical coming-of age -camp.

I once met a Finnish guy whose atheist parents had made sure that he never got even close to a religion class in school. He once asked me why we celebrate Easter. Being an atheist is one thing, having no basic knowledge of Western civilisation (where Christianity plays a big part) is quite another.

I have to add that those of my friends and peers that I know to have gone to confirmation camp because of peer pressure, had matured by the age of 18-20 enough to resign from the church.

Anzi – If so few folks in Helsinki go to church on Sundays and religion has been reduced to a lecture class for an hour or three during the week I am, perhaps, more confused since why would so many still opt to pay 1% tax to support the church that they never/rarely go to and the classes could be taught as part of a western history survey? I haven’t any objections to teaching history and religion in schools…it’s the indoctrination. The Catholic church and schools have mastered it over the centuries and aren’t shy or apologetic about it…then again, they don’t do it in the public schools. Sure, I could have skipped out of mass at my Catholic school…but it takes a strong kid to draw attention to themselves for being different from the majority and emerging unscathed.

Paying the tiny church tax is a habit. Like I said before, belonging to the church has such a non-existant effect on the daily lives of people in Finland that it is easy to keep it as a dormant and distant part of your life.

The Finnish Lutheran church is a fairly non-aggressive and mild church, which avoids taking hard stances against anything. It will, for example, marry divorced people and accept them as godparents unlike the catholic or Anglican churches. Women can also become priests, though homosexuality is still a bit of a hot potato.

At my school, no one really gave a damn whether you actually belonged to church or not, the kids who didn’t weren’t in any way osracized for it. And like I said, those who really wanted to (there were quite a few of them), resigned from the church when they turned eighteen.

The comparison between strict Catholic schools and Finnish public schools is not a very valid one, because in Finland religion class is more like a branch of history class. In fact, most religion teachers are actually history teachers by profession and often also teach the “elämänkatsomustieto”. I know a couple of recently graduated history teachers who are atheists and whose teaching duties include history, religion, and “elämänkatsomustieto”. I can’t see how that combination would result in religious indoctrination.

Long gone are the days of my parents’ childhood when religion teachers had to be ordained priests.

Ooooooh, I love Markku’s comment:

“‘And as we know, ignorance breeds intolerance.’ The opposite may sometimes be true.”

Nice one!

Still….why teach it in the public schools and have confirmation camps and all that? Why doesn’t that stay in the church where it belongs? Teaching the prayers in public school does qualify as indoctrination…just as the pledge of allegiance in the US schools is indoctrination of a different sort.

And, I don’t know about the tax as habit given that 1% would buy a few movies and 12-packs of lapin kulta on even the most paltry of salaries. If you don’t attend church, i.e. participate in the community that is representative of such an organized religion, why would the few things like marriage or burial via the church have enough meaning to pay the tithe all your life? Could it be the education/indoctrination people get in school as kids that keeps them paying?

Confirmation camps are organised by the church, not schools. They have nothing to do with the public school curriculum.

They prepare you for your confirmation which then makes you a full-fledged member of the church, giving the right to get eg. married in the church and become a godparent. It is in no way mandatory, though, and I know people who have decided at 15 not to go because they didn’t believe in it.

And yes, the tax is more of a habit. Given all of the taxes we Finns pay anyway, 1% to the church doesn’t really feel like anything. You should know, though, that more and more people are resigning from the church in order to avoid that tax. The amount of Finns resigning from the church has increased every year.

You should know, though, that more and more people are resigning from the church in order to avoid that tax.

Smart people.

@hfb,
Lutheranism is the default setting in teaching religion, if you don’t apply for something else you get treated as Lutheran. It’s not enough not to be Lutheran (I wasn’t). Separate teachers means the school will have to hire someone qualified to teach the kids and to get the materials, so they are not going to volunteer for the extra expense and work. There’s some lower limit for the number of kids to be taught (3?) plus you have to have a bona fide religion (i.e. not Scientology or Wicca).
Most Muslims in Finland don’t register as members of any organized Muslim community and they don’t appear on any statistics as Muslims; likewise they teach religion at home or in the Masjid. Almost Libertarian, really.
The classes I attended were a flop as indoctrination as well as education. If I know something about any religion at all, it’s no thanks to school. A proper grounding in the world religions with emphasis on Christianity should be a part of my kids’ education. Probably have to teach them myself.
For most nominal Lutherans, the church is there because it’s there because it’s there. No reason left but no-one can be bothered to get rid of it. That would mean taking the whole thing seriously, which they don’t.

Smart people.

I guess. It’s also so much easier nowadays. You can do it via the net whenever you want to, and don’t have to haul your butt to the church office during office hours.

” But learning prayers in school…?!?! Nooooo!!!!! ”

I am not a member of any church or believe in any god. Still, I think everybody living in western countries should know at least Lord’s Prayer / Paternoster and other principles of christianity. Those belong to general knowledge.

Religion teaching in Finnish schools is mainly facts about different world religions and their customs, from hinduism and buddhism to hare krishna.

“Confirmation camps are organised by the church, not schools. They have nothing to do with the public school curriculum.”

And don’t forget secular camps, e.g. free-thinking Prometheus camps that are an option to camps organized by the lutheran church.

And don’t forget secular camps, e.g. free-thinking Prometheus camps that are an option to camps organized by the lutheran church.

I mentioned them in post #15. Aren’t they constantly gaining popularity?

I have a question: How many of you all know someone – a native Finn – who clings to a robust, historical, evangelical Christian faith (not using ‘evangelical’ in an American political sense, but in a Reformation one: someone who lives by and proclaims the gospel of Christ)? And I’m talking a normal, level-headed, thinking Christian [stop laughing].

I ask partly because there are two very distinct groups of evangelicals in the U.S., only one of whom demand that the government legislate religion from the top down (the other that realizes why the Puritans and others left England in the first place).

I know I’m asking to get torched here, but I’m still interested.

Well, after some scratching of my head to remember, how I was indoctrinated, I remember Luther’s main message was that you are saved by your very personal faith only, not by the number of church service visits or abortion doctors shot.

Religiously, I’m pretty much along the same lines as mjr above. Personally I’m OK with the 1% tax to support the pretty buildings in the center and the grave sites for the loved ones, which are a bit too many already for a 37 years old guy.

“I have a question: How many of you all know someone – a native Finn – who clings to a robust, historical, evangelical Christian faith [...]who lives by and proclaims the gospel of Christ)? And I’m talking a normal, level-headed, thinking Christian [stop laughing].”

Not laughing, I’ve known many such people in the States…

But I don’t personally know any here. However, I’m sure they exist. I would say that such a person would probably have been influenced by Americans who’ve visited Finland on prosteletizing missions–or maybe he has some religious contacts in the States.

It’s also possible that he just wants a part of the American lifestyle, the same way that some people here gravitate towards western line-dancing and wearing cowboy attire.

In any case, American religious behavior doesn’t really have a historical basis in Finnish life. Just consider that, in historical Finland, entire families would bathe together in a sauna. How well would that jibe with the American style “robust, historical, evangelical Christian faith?”

Religious (read moral) behavior is very subjective; I’ve found that each country seems to percieve it in their own way.

Matt, well I certainly do know many such Finns coming from a Pietist family (though they don’t much go for theological dogma and are maybe too liberal for even mainstream American protestantism – or should I say ex-mainstream). A distinctive feature of the Finnish Lutheran church is that the within the church there are several influential folk movements that originated in the 18th and 19th centuries. Pietists (heränneet) are one, and I would say that Evangelicals (evankeliset) are very orthodox Lutheran protestants that would maybe qualify your criteria. Laestadians in the north are a big movement as well – gathering ca 70 000 people to their annual summer meeting, but they are theologically quite eccentric and despite their church membership are more like a closed sect. Apart from Pietists these movements form much of the socially and theologically conservative wing of the church the central issue being woman priests that the official church does accept. The mainstream church tries usually to downplay the importance of these movements (a clear majority of the priests and lay staff is nevertheless significantly influenced by them) and it is itself divided between liberals and conservatives with the bishops being quite liberal but nevertheless trying constantly to appease the conservatives. There should be somewhere on the net a good English summary of the Finnish church – I’ll see if I can find one.

Well, the Church official home page looks quite informative:

http://www.evl.fi/english/

“…Luther’s main message was that you are saved by your very personal faith only, not by the number of church service visits or abortion doctors shot.”

Oh, you mean there’s no official point system? You know, like if you’d have convinced Hitler to get ‘Saved’, then maybe you’d have gotten a big bonus prize or something

By the way, I lived in eastern Germany for the past 5-years. It’s safe to say that the Communist regime wiped-out religion there and replaced it fully with Marxism. Still, today, both young and old people consider themselves atheist…not even ‘spiritual’; simply atheist.

Coincidentally, I DID sense a moral vacuum in eastern Germany that doesn’t exist here in Finland–stealing, dishonesty, screwing one’s neighbor’s wife, etc.– those aren’t taboos in many areas there. Anything goes if you can get away with it. Of course, not everyone does these things, but they won’t tell you it’s wrong either.

I’ve never been a churchgoer, but after witnessing that, I can’t help but wonder if the church actually DOES guide society in certain important ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_of_Finland

Teaching about religions in general is just as well founded as teaching about world history. However, they should remove all prayers & masses from public schools.

I have a question: How many of you all know someone – a native Finn – who clings to a robust, historical, evangelical Christian faith (not using ‘evangelical’ in an American political sense, but in a Reformation one: someone who lives by and proclaims the gospel of Christ)? And I’m talking a normal, level-headed, thinking Christian [stop laughing].

One, a classmate of mine whom I haven’t seen in 10 years.

The most religiously fundamentalist people I have met have all been, surprisingly enough, atheists. They have all talked about free thinking and having an open mind, but are some of the most judgmental and intolerant people I have ever met.

For all finns: http://www.eroakirkosta.fi/

At least the church tax in Finland is manageable, but compare the German tax (which varies by Bundesland). I used to live in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg for a while and the tax there is 8% (other Bundesländer 9%).

[i]The most religiously fundamentalist people I have met have all been, surprisingly enough, atheists. They have all talked about free thinking and having an open mind, but are some of the most judgmental and intolerant people I have ever met.[/i]

Exactly! That’s funny when free thinking means just thinking like them. This is the biggest reason why I stress that I’m an agnostic, not an atheist, when I meet people.

“The most religiously fundamentalist people I have met have all been, surprisingly enough, atheists. They have all talked about free thinking and having an open mind, but are some of the most judgmental and intolerant people I have ever met. ”

I’ve also experienced these types. Most times they don’t have tolerance for people who believe in ‘something.’ Oh well, you know what they say about an atheist at his funeral: All dressed-up, but no place to go…ha ha!

“At least the church tax in Finland is manageable, but compare the German tax (which varies by Bundesland). I used to live in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg for a while and the tax there is 8% (other Bundesländer 9%)”

It was optional in Saxony.

I stayed overnight in a small Westphalian town, and at about 9am sharp, the church bell RANG! and RANG! and RANG! for about a half-hour. That early riser Protestant way of life sucks!

These atheist people behind “eroakirkosta” act like a cult of their own spreading their mission like another religion. Why these people have to preach.. Wasn’t it all about free choise and thinking of individuals? Why turn it in to this crusade, if i may say so..

Sad.

I’m not a member of finnish Lutherian church but hell, if anyone wants to be, i AM NOT going to talk them out of it. People CAN THINK ON THEIR OWN. Atheist hypocrites. Goddamnit.

“Oh, you mean there’s no official point system? You know, like if you’d have convinced Hitler to get ‘Saved’, then maybe you’d have gotten a big bonus prize or something…”

Heh…or if you bring 2 of your friends in, you win a supper with Jesus. No, I think there was a notification about scrapping of the point system on Wittenberg church door few hundred years ago.

I guess it is finnish way not to make a big fuss over one’s religion. One professor of theology at the Helsinki university opened his lecture to the new students introducing some of the faculty members: “One professor doesn’t believe in god, one has divorced and one is qualified crazy. I’m the crazy one”

#43

‘people CAN THINK ON THEIR OWN’

apparently they can’t, choosing to believe in a magical sky daddy is absurd.

as absurd as believing in easter bunny, tooth fairies, pink flying unicorn or a teapot in space orbiting the sun.

Funny this has turned into an atheist-bashing session. I have never believed in any god, and I really don’t give a shit what people believe in. As long as you show me enough respect to not preach at me that I need to be “saved,” I’ll respect you. My wife is in fact a devout Finnish Lutheran, though she never goes to church except for weddings, funerals and baptisms.

She paid the church tax when we were in Finland, which I thought was odd, but didn’t argue because she felt strongly about it.

The fact that I really am don’t care about religion I think helps me since I work with a lot of Muslims and don’t really have any problem respecting them either.

I’ve met judgemental atheists before, certainly. But I wonder if there is any such thing as a judgemental Christian…

Kristian (post 42),

obviously it’s optional in Finland, too. But if you plan to be a member in the German Catholic or Lutheran church, you’d better be prepared to pay the 8/9% of your income.

Atheists aren’t shoving religious dogma down peoples throath and expecting others to live by their ruling.

>They have all talked about free thinking and having an open mind,
>but are some of the most judgmental and intolerant people I have
>ever met.

Hey, maybe they feel they HAVE to be, because Finland hasn’t – regardless of whatever amount of apologist crap you choose to spew out, as always – separated the state and the church at least yet, unlike some other states which can be said to be truly secular… and because of that, more _civilized_ on this count than us, huh?

But hey, fuck that, because if that’s how _we_ do it, then that’s the _WAY_ anyway, häh? Vittu että jotkut sitten jaksaakin puolustella / selitellä, on sitä syytä sitten tai ei… naurettavaa…

Plasma G:
“I’m not a member of finnish Lutherian church but hell, if anyone wants to be, i AM NOT going to talk them out of it. People CAN THINK ON THEIR OWN. Atheist hypocrites. Goddamnit.”

So what if atheists want to talk Christians out of their insanity? What makes it hypocrit?

“So what if atheists want to talk Christians out of their insanity? What makes it hypocrit?”

I rest my case.

rest your case all you want.

last time I heard that believing in imaginary creatures qualifies as insanity

#45 But the point being that do ateists have to evangelize that message to people who say, are members of lutheran church? Why SOME atheists try to turn their beliefs into a non-believing-religion.
And is said SOME. And why does it bother you that some people are concidered in your eyes “idiots” believing something supernatural if they want to do it and it makes them feel happy or just secure.

#48 Who is shoving christian dogma down your throat? Or are you just exaggerating to justify you being an ateist? You don’t have to justify, it’s your free choise. Let other have theirs, even if you think they’re wrong. I have my own God but i’m not going to take any shit from anyone trying to “shove” something down my throat or try to rule me. Neither should you or anyone in my opinion.

#50 Why would you want to talk them out of their “insanity”? Does it frustrate that much if you think someone is so stupid compared to you in matters that are so clear to you? Why would you want to evangelize and turn them into being atheists? That sounds like another religion and shoving your beliefs down their throats THAT is hypocrite.

#53

Then why do we lock up all the good people who have imaginary friends but not -insert religious group here- who have their own imaginary friends.

Is it because they have hundreds of years of insanity that it has became part of our idiotic culture.

I would say, that the probability for the god’s existence is smaller, than the probability of his non-existence. I get the usual slack from the atheists about being an intellectual coward for not taking the final leap to make it 1-0. I don’t leap, because I consider it a leap of faith. Many opinions of some ancient spitbeards at the foundations of various religions can be disproved by modern science OK, but how can one be sure, for example, that the whole universe isn’t a process giving consciousness to some supreme being. Sounds more complicated, than having just empty up there, but I think Occam’s razor delt also with the probabilities of different explanations.

I believe in imaginary numbers…

As long as were talking about atheits here’s a ‘quite interesting video about atheist, america and the bible verse that was involved in the recent vapaa-ajattelijat lutheran church debacle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU&search=ZakieChan

#56

Antti

You can’t prove a negative

and the Burden of proof falls to the maker of the claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(logical_fallacy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_%28logical_fallacy%29

Go Kiss Hank’s Ass y’all.

#54 Even you can tell the difference in that. But i get your point. I got it the first time. Don’t be so patronizing.

Ask yourself a question, why should you care what these people believe in? I’m not against people being atheist. Don’t tread on me. Don’t evangelize if you’re against other people doing it.

That was the point i tried to make about this “eroakirkosta” campaign. 1) Resign from church 2) Buy a domain (!) 3) Design a website 4) Spread the word and YOUR view of the world. 5) make people resign from church and join your beliefs, because apparently their current views and beliefs are not as good as yours.

Sounds familiar? Religion?

I understand atheism. I understand it very well. I don’t understand this we-want-to-make-you-nonbeliever and resign-from-church movement.

If you don’t want to pay church taxes, resign! Fine, now you don’t have to. Why try to take as many as you can with you and try to influence their minds? Wasn’t the organization called “vapaa-ajattelijat”? Free thinkers my ass.

And again, i’m not a member of Lutheran church but i think it’s good that people are and pay taxes for it. Church does a lot of good things to the people on bottom of our society and missionary work helping those who are in need abroad.

What is so bad in that, that there has to be a movement against church?

Resign, don’t be a part of it. Carry on with your life.

In Finland 36% 15-30 years old “Lutherans” believes in rebirth as new human being or animal.

So, are we buddhists or Lutherans?

Finnish faith is no one-thing song.
600 years ago we believed in powerful feminine spirits and shamanistic world creator Mother Bear. This is only culture in the world, where sun and moon have been with feminine attributs.

Christianity is so thin layer in our culture.
We are still forest people.

Christianity was forced bloodily by pope´s blessed force with swords, hanging, curses and torturing. Christianity is still very political thing, if you want to be politically right color and good moral citizen, you must be “king´s man” and believe in official church certified blessing, sin and shit.

Shame, sin and satanic pictures of hell in churches have been very cruel power play to brake up our original hippie-shaman-forest culture.

Maya-indans have same origin to their shamanistic culture from Siberia/Ural as Finns – did you know that?
http://www.didrichsenmuseum.fi/mainpage_frame.htm

Since most Finns are all the same religion anyway, I say let them have their cake and eat it too. The students of other denominations are left in the local pond to get bitten up by mosquitos. It’s very typical Heretic treatment

#60

religion? hahaa hardly

atheism is the lack of believe in god or gods thats it, there is no dogma like in religions, it isn’t based on faith.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is a lack of belief in a deity or deities: the opposite of theism. This encompasses both people who assert that there are no gods and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions of atheism typically regard as atheists only those people who assert the nonexistence of gods, leaving other nonbelievers classified as agnostics or non-theists.

Although many of those who identify themselves as atheists share a common skeptical attitude regarding spiritual or supernatural claims, atheism is taken from variety of rationales; personal, philosophical, social and historical. While there is a tendency among self-described atheists toward secular philosophies such as humanism, naturalism and materialism, there is no single system of philosophy to which all atheists can be said to adhere, nor does atheism have any institutionalized rituals or behaviors.

It’s the normal state of a humanbeing or were you born as a christian or muslim or etc. and from the moment of your first breath did you had faith in god? I doubt that you did

oh and by the way when there’s something that science is yet to be able to explain.

‘god did it’ isn’t the answer that can fill those gaps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

why should I care?
Everybody should care when religious dogma tries to dictate the rest of society on how should they live.

Look at the current fundamentalist illiterate idiot running things in washington, voted in to the office by the ever growing number of the fundamentalist christian right.

And not long ago being atheist in finland was almost as bad as being homosexual in finland which was classified as a disease.

theres no room for religion on politics history has proven it and so are the current happenings in the world proving it.

One of the most disturbing characteristics of the Finnish Lutheran Church is not how it continues to hold onto state-sanctioned prerogatives, but how Lutheran morality has come to be melded in the ideology of the social democratic welfare state.

It seems that the Finnish Lutheran Church is quite comfortable in handing off the role of moralist mentor to the social democrats. Even the professed atheism many socialists doesn’t seem to perturb the serious Church Party members.

While this could be interpreted as a rather Machiavellian move, – the Lutheran Church has always been attacked by its presumption of holding the moral highground, and having the SDP take on that burden seems like the smart thing to do – another interpretation would simply be this: the two recognize each other as allies in holding on to socio-political power, against the dangers to them posed by capitalists, free-market ideals, and the freedoms implied by the cultivation of individual initiative and thought.

I have often found atheists and fundemntalists reading from the same page basing their ideology on a very crude 19th century positivist science. As an agnostic I would simply say that matters are not so simple: there are spritiual dimensions in our experience of the world, in this breath taking journay we all take from birth to grave. Maybe we end up creating a god or gods, maybe they can be seen as an instrumental part of our experience even if there will never be any physical evidence or even direct evidence of their non-existence. So, even if some crude fundamentalist God would exist, it would really not much shake my pietist-agnostism – or if we only would physically have this empty and mostly cruel physical world. Most of formal religion and theology is of course nonsense, useds as tools in doctrinal powerstruggles, but for me their is nucleus of something else, something universal in all major religions.

matters are not so simple: there are spritiual dimensions in our experience of the world, in this breath taking journay we all take from birth to grave

Oh, fooey! Your breath-taking journey is another person’s wail of tears. Really, the best place to start examining atheism is with Kierkegaard. He never gave up on his faith, but his battles with faith (ending with the “leap of faith” which Antti [the redneck one] seems to be familiar with) were so well-reasoned that they were eventually picked up by the French Marxists, Camus and Sartre, who eventually elucidated the modern atheist stance.

And that is the problem with atheism as we know it in Europe: it got mired with French political thought. In other words, it became (in France, later in the rest of Europe) co-opted in yet another system of thought that would support the supremacy of statism, and dirigisme.

And I agree with many of the commenters here: atheists become ideological if they start proselytizing their stances. I would recommend a more Buddhist stance for atheists (and Buddhists are atheists, by definition): don’t even try to persuade if you know the happiness from knowing there is no God, and there is no soul. Just wait for the “duh” moment from all the others.

(Buddha actually said that. Really. I kid you not.)

#31 Kristian: Thanks for the responses both about Finland and eastern Germany – they are quite interesting. You pretty much answered my question, but I was kind of hoping to detach “American-ness” from “Christian”. I wouldn’t want American values confused as Christian doctrine; what flies for Christian ethics in, say, Kemijärvi is and should be different in form than that in, say, Beijing. The sauna thing is a cultural event and would not fit into American culture as such – but there is nothing ‘un-Christian’ about a family sauna. At its foundation, the sauna likely exhibits a far more Christian family ethic than is found in the vast majority of American households.

It is a bit harder than one would imagine to find such a thing here in the U.S. – most of the stuff most people profess as faith is neither robust, nor historical, nor evangelical in nature. So this is not some American export I am describing here. Thank you so much for the thoughts – I appreciate it.

Blah at #57, Yes, those are the rules of the road indeed. The problem is that I can’t positively exclude the possibility of god’s existence by not being able to prove his existence. If this conversation would have taken place a couple thousand years ago, I couldn’t have been able to prove the existence of the continent, later known as America…

#32 mjr:

Thanks for the pointer to the ELCF site, and the line on Laestadianism. I’ll read both things tomorrow. The bit about the church hierarchy trying to appease the conservative parish ministers (laity, too?).

You note Pietism – many folks here in Minnesota are from a Swedish or Norwegian pietistic heritage, and if similar, I doubt I would put them in the category I’m describing. Historically, it is very new (as you said, 18th/19th C.), and has been a practice of primarily following rule after rule in order to change its local culture. That tradition here, in my view, has given rise to much of the modern American evangelical culture pushing for the imposition of prayer in schools and the like.

Given Phil’s article above and the responses, I would say it is likely hard to find, in either Finland or the U.S., a person who holds deep Biblical faith, neither shallow and legalistic nor hollow and indifferent, who desires church and state be kept separate for the good of both. But they are there, I’m sure…

A moderate atheist view: there’s no reason to believe in any particular God or religion, but people clearly have a need to believe in something, and our Lutheranism is at least fairly harmless, these days. People need to believe because objectively the world is a meaningless place and nothing matters. That’s no way to think if you want to get out of bed in the morning. So even a stupid faith is probably better for the believer than none at all.

If I had to live the life of a person who needs concrete proof for everything, I would just go right ahead and kill myself. Not because I’d hate my life, but because I have so much compassion for my fellow humans that I would want to spare them the excruciating boredom that my company would inevitably cause for them.

And no, I don’t have a problem with atheism. I have a problem with people who call others “crazy” and “weird” because they don’t believe the way they do.

Don’t get me started here people I have had enough debates with fundies, moderates and agnostics that I can see where this is going so I’ll leave it at that (and because my language skills in english aren’t good enough).

And Antti yeah so by that logic you then believe in tooth fairy, Zeus and the teapot in space orbiting the sun then (whats the word in finnish malaisjärki?).

The existant of another continent was perfectly possible assumption back then,
it’s a natural thing that the people back then knew that exists they were living on one. But the assumption of a supernatural beings existence is a whole other thing.

You might want to make yourself familiar with the there-is-no-gold-in-China-arguement that theists also like to use it’s one of those cloaked you can’t prove god doesn’t exists-arguements.
Little bit of common sense is allowed you know.

Oh and for all those but-life-is-meaningles. I personally find it scary that people need a pre-set meaning to their life. as scary as the argument- if you don’t believe in god then you don’t have any morals. yeah I’m constantly beating up grannies.

and for final words

It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. — Carl Sagan

And FYI i’m not trying deconvert you or anything but as some of you had the urge to bash atheism I had to say something.

And I can’t see anything wrong in that if people see one of those http://www.eroakirkosta.fi-ads. I haven’t also met any preaching vapaa-ajatilijoihin on the streets but I do have almost atleast once a month been stopped by some fundy-organizations street preachers who wish to convert me. (They even harass me in my own home ringin the door bell and droping religious garbage thru the maildoor.)

Heh, I think I have some empirical evidence against the tooth fairy. The electrodynamics of the lightning is relatively well-understood, so we can’t have Zeus, in a way the ancient greeks thought and the teapot…well, highly improbable, like the god.

Now the common sense dictates the little positive epsilon above the zero probability, which sets the range, where the probability can be considered zero. My epsilon is such that I don’t play Lotto or bash the gay people or amen everything with ‘Israel’ in it to get a second life. But really, going down this road debating, whether the epsilon equals zero or not, people may question the existence of even the first one.

Yeah antti I understand your point and I have no need to follow that road as I know where these debates lead to.

Even thou I’m not all for the agnostic approach the point of agnosticm is somewhat valid (also I don’t like to call myself ignorant, a-gnostic – with out knowledge )

And for those who wonder how agnostics and atheists find meaning in life I recomend this thread.

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopict-21350-How-do-AtheistsAgnostics-find-meaning.html

@Blah,
it might be more a matter of justification than meaning. ‘Do as you’re told or else’ works in the short term, but in the long run people have to believe that what they are doing and the social roles they occupy make sense and are justified and fair. Saying, ‘it’s God’s will’ (or the ancestors’ or it’s your Karma or whatever), helps. It’s irrational, but when there’s no rationality that’d do you any good…

‘Saying, ‘it’s god’s will’(or the ancestors’ or it’s your Karma or whatever), helps’

prince of dorkness, I would have to say that it is a double edged sword.

Antti: Luther’s main message was that you are saved by your very personal faith only

God’s mercy is more important, I think: you can believe all you want but in the end it’s God who decides who goes to heaven and who not. This principle goes to explain why Finland and other Lutherian countries are such democratic societies – or the north-eastern colonies of the US likewise. Even the lowest of the low can be favoured by God because of some mysterious reason and so forth. I don’t think that this sociological aspect is teached in schools here. (Weber was talking about a different sect if you’re wondering).

On #80 yes, I think you are right. There are some differences between different groups in the Lutheran church, how “automatically” the mercy is granted. I think the laestadians talk about the “salvation certainty”, which the believer has, while the Körtti people would never accept such a concept. They believe, but are not certain about the salvation, which makes them probably the least arrogant people I have met. Compared to the other pietism spin-offs, they are relatively open minded and I think I came along with them pretty well. There are quite many of them living in the eastern parts of the country.

#67 mjr:

Excellent post! Those are my thoughts exactly.

#67 maybe there is some universal in all major religions?

hmmm could it be that judaism, christianity and islam are practicaly the same cult worshipping the same delusion.

Here’s a *puzzle* for all you doubters and believers.

‘Since the creature (god) is said to be independant of time
then he’s independent of space, since time and space are relative. if such a being is independent of space, then it does not exist in space.

therefore, one can conclude that god does not exist.’

Of course this depends on to definition of god(s).

sorry.

*Of course this depends on *(to) definition of god(s).*

*replace (to) with (the)

The church tax money is used for good purpose: The church takes care of the old, the children, gives marriage counseling, arranges youth and family camps, employs thousands of people. Most people employed by the Lutheran Church are other than clergy. All those people need pension when they retire.

The Lutheran church should tell more about what it does.

I would not want my children to be ignorant about religion. They would not understand classical paintings or great poetry. Living in the western coutries without knowledge of Christianity would be like living in India without knowing the religion of that country = being ignorant.

And in crisis situations religion becomes really important to most people.

#86
yeah pay all you want but don’t force others to pay your churches expences thru community tax

#40

yeah sure whatever girl friend

Judging by the comments here, an amazing number of Finns turn out to be quite fundamentalist indeed, when confronted with the necessity to separate church and state.

Finland is so absolutely infused with Lutheran values that it has lost its secular compass.

Yeah we’re regular fundies alright, we just love to bible thumb people in the head.

If finns are such fundies then americans are that fag-hating gods bestfriends

#55: My thoughts exactly. Atheists are believers (of the non-existence of god).

The “company tax” or communal tax covers the expenses of the graveyards and church offices where people go for instance to arrange their weddings.In most countries these services are given by the government – with the tax money.

The church feeds the homeless, comforts the lonely, the old and the dying. She takes care of people whom most people don’t even want to see. In our hard and merciless society the church is needed more than ever. Let also the rich pay for it. And – it is only one percent of your income.

The Lutheran church in Finland gives services to everybody whether she or he belongs to the church or not.

#91

aet75 I recommend that you educate yourself before you open your mouth

for all you god believers here is your support group

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtHHgFDpxnw&search=atheist

funny as hell

94. That video is quite hilarious! It’s as if the character Christopher on The Sopranos just discovered religion.

#94

I can’t believe I watched it.

Comedy at work here people