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Also the prison as a Darwin net as it tends to keep the gene pool constrained.

That’s being facetious of course; not all poor people are stupid. There are many reasons for why someone might be poor. For example, one might own a house, have ample savings and a job, only to be completely wiped-out by medical bills because he couldn’t qualify for govt assisted medical care. Now, suddenly, the person belongs to the impoverished underclass. I’ve seen that scenario reported many times by the US press.

So, it’s not just the poor who are affected; it could be anyone at anytime. I’ve always felt that this possibility creates an undertone of stressful anxiety and hostility in the US–maybe even explains the psychology of why people take such short vacations; that is, maybe it’s better to keep working…just in case. That anxiety and hostility doesn’t exist so much here in Europe, and I think people want to keep it that way.

Actually though, America DOES have a Stupid Net of sorts: It’s called Prison. And judging by the percentages (I read that the US has the highest percentage of its population in prison, compared to the rest of the world–even higher than China) it’s clear that Americans DO support it rather overwhelmingly.

The costs might not be in direct monetary terms, but we all have to pay somehow.

1. You are allowed to actually fail here in America

2. The Gov is only a safety net, not a stupid net.

I do think that in the EU you have a “Stupid Net” of social welfare, but here in the USA we think thats just going to far, and it does not work anyway.

It went over like a lead ballon.

Your point is very few people (In MN) do not have Insurance unless they chose not to bother even applying for it?

Well tick me off, I will get out there and fire some more workers so your numbers can show more un-insured in MN.

Can NOT have the welfare state of Finland compare well to the self choice state of MN.

And you guys pay 60% Income taxes for what?

Cars are also very inexpenisive(my first 5 or 6 cars were well under $1000, one was even $1) so people typically have the option to drive, if they have a valid liciense.

Fat Americans are fat because they eat prepackaged “junk” food and do not cook meals from scratch. The only food they cook consists of mixing prepackage, well preserved junk together and simmering it for awhile, then eat and wash everything down with a coke. %50 of our grocery stores are filled with this crap. Its reletively cheap, easy, and fast. It also tastes good to people who have never developed a taste for “real” food and are two lazy to cook. These people also are the biggest consumers of health care.

In finnish grocery stores the wholesome options are endless and prepackaged junk is not common. Also, Finns will walk or bike to any place that they need to go to near their home. Americans on the other hand will not walk farther than the end of their driveway.

In Finland, especially, due to the tax regime. But not in central Europe. And gas is more expensive in Europe, although the distances tend to be shorter.

“Even in Helsinki where public transport is good, it still took 40 minutes to get to work by bus instead of 20 minutes by car. In Finland it drove me nuts waiting for the bus with all the other people at the bus stop smoking. A small minus on the health meter.”

And people spitting is kind of gross too

Admittedly, Helsinki isn’t a great example. However, I still like using public transit more than driving–much more. It’s a great chance to relax and read. Even for my job, I sometimes take a break and just ride somewhere to read something work-related. For me, it’s better than sitting behind a desk all the time…or behind a steering wheel.

I couldn’t stand the stress of sitting in my car, like I did in the States. Plus, my waistline expanded out of control.

“The major cities in the US have excellent public transportation (NY and DC for example.) The people in the cities there are no healthier for it.”

I realize that the US has some good examples of public transit. It even has some bike-friendly cities. But, overall, I think the US has only remotely embraced this type of urban planning. I know it’s not economically feasible in some places though, due to geography, etc. But if gas prices keep rising, then who knows. Maybe they’ll even get the rail system going again to get some of those big trucks off the roads.

When I lived in Germany, everybody rode their bike to work for at least part of the time. It’s actually a great way to live. Sometimes we’d go to the biergarten or pub after work… I’ll take that lifestyle over the American driving lifestyle any day.

And it was a great way to save money–gas, depreciation, repairs, etc. My car would sit for weeks at a time, unused.

Even in Helsinki where public transport is good, it still took 40 minutes to get to work by bus instead of 20 minutes by car.

The major cities in the US have excellent public transportation (NY and DC for example.) The people in the cities there are no healthier for it. In Finland it drove me nuts waiting for the bus with all the other people at the bus stop smoking. A small minus on the health meter.

Americans do walk. Maybe not like Europeans but we do as my Finnish friends have discovered. Have you ever seen how big those malls are?

Good theory though.

Walking to catch a bus or tram and bicycling is also a great approach to managing healthcare costs, since those in the lower economic strata are most likely to benefit from the increased exercise–that is, poor people are usually the least informed or concerned about nutrition; hence, they’d usually be the fattest and unhealthiest (as in the US). But they’d also be the most likely to use such options if they’d be available.

Transit here in Finland is sort of good…I mean, at least we have it. It’s more expensive than in central Europe though, and it can be more sparse, especially during the summer months. The bike infrastructure (paths, painted bike lanes, etc.) is really good though. It just isn’t integrated it with the train/bus system well enough.

They are rampant consumers. Many of them could be insured through work but chose to blow their employers health insurance allowance on their lifestyles. They also know that if anything happens to them, they be able to figure out a way to have the government or some other entity pay for it. Most of them work construction or are fresh out of college and take their health for granted.

I also know of a few uninsured families. All they would have to do to receive quality insurance is contact the State of MN and apply for MinnesotaCare. A family of 4 qualifies if their income is under $46,000 a year. A good sob story will get you on if you make more. The only reason they don’t have insurance is because they are to lazy to take the time to fill out a few papers and jump through a few hoops. My family was on it for a while, it wasn’t that hard.

A third, and very large segment of the uninsured, is on Medical Assitance. It’s free health care, no copays, no premiums, no money out of pocket whatsoever. It’s technically not insurance so these people are counted as the uninsured in any survey. Many inner city welfare recipients are on this program. I was on this also for a few months when I first moved back from Finland and had no real income, no savings, and a family of 3. I have 2 employees on this program. I pay them both $16 an hour and they work an average of 10 hours of overtime a week. They could be on out companies insurance but they prefer the FREE healthcare. I don’t know how they qualify. They are both Mexican immigrants so I think they receive special consideration. They are my best workers so I don’t hold it against them, I would do the same thing if I could.

My point is that there should be very few people in the State of MN without some form of reasonably good insurance, yet we have several hundred thousand. I grew up well under the poverty threshold as a child. I had great govt. insurance, my University of MN education was %100 paid for by the goverment for the first 2 years.

People in our state, with very few expections, who do not have health insurace CHOOSE not to have it. The exceptions are people between jobs who had private insurance at the previous employeer and have not worked long enough at the new employer to qualify.

Minnesota is a more generous state than others in this regard, but in any state all children and seniors can qualify under federal plans(I’m not %100 sure on this).

I aplogize for the long post but I feel the debate has been rather civil on this thread so hopefully people will read with an open mind. I feel this issure has been totally twisted by the powers that be and end result is that people outside(and many in) the US think 40 million Amercicans are getting a hose job.

Winter, I would recommend you visit the doctor and get checked for rabies or mad cow. I’m sure your plan would cover it.

I hate to agree here with Petteri.

But hay, I am not so bad a person after all. When my neighbor is supprised by a gov check for farming, he cashed it, and got a boat. He did not need the money, and could have cared less, but like everyone, is willing to abandon principles for cash.

Its what the welfare state is all about. Buying those income votes. No help was ever intended.