Let’s see. The post was “accidentally” shelled 14 times prior to this. Then it took one “accidental” direct hit, after which the medical team that arrived at the rubble was being “accidentally” fired at.

I can understand the Israeli UN ambassador’s outrage over the Secretary General’s suggestion that these might not have been accidents. The nerve!

The Israelis are also suspected of using phosphorous bombs on Lebanon…..

The Israelis are also suspected of using phosphorous bombs on Lebanon…..

All for democracy and lasting peace, no doubt.

More car bombs to be expected in Tel Aviv. Keep the circus rollin’.

And America lets this happen. Hypocritical shits. Hezbollah might not have clean underpants either but nonetheless… Tough on terrorism my fucking arse. Way to go USA. “Mission accomplished ”

(I note that not all Americans support their administration and will be appalled by these developments, even if they don’t get much space in the media)

And America lets this happen. Hypocritical shits. Hezbollah might not have clean underpants either but nonetheless…

I like the way Tuomioja put it: Israel seems to be targeting everything but Hezbollah with their “precision strikes”.

Considering that Israel’s actions are just an extension of US foreign policy, this is getting quite interesting. Just the day before Israel’s ambassador to Finland assured in an editorial in HS that Israel strikes only targets that are directly involved in supporting Hezbollah. Kinda wraps up the US-Israeli policy on the UN, doncha think?

And America lets this happen. Hypocritical shits.

Yeah, I’m sure the world would just love it if the US got involved militarily.

I’m going to ask a stupid question here – What are Israel’s motives behind bombing a UN post on purpose?

I have said this before and I say it again; when a war is unleashed, nobody really knows where it will lead. It will sooner or later take an unexpected turn and even the well laid plans go for naught. There is no clean video wargame, no precision bombing, no surgical pin point strikes the way the salesmen and the spinners of the warmongers are trying to convince us to believe. War is a dirty, animalistic excercise with blood and gore dictated by our gave-man mentality combined with the cutting edge killing technology. Somehow we regular folk must wrestle the power from those that are hell bent to rule the world with this vicious circle of violence. They have had free hands now in the Middle East the past half a Century and look where it has taken us! Fuck those bastards!

“I’m going to ask a stupid question here – What are Israel’s motives behind bombing a UN post on purpose? “

I’m sure, according to Israel, a dead observer is a good observer.

Insofar as the US letting it happen… Sure, anything that draws attention away from the debacle in Iraq/Afghanistan is good. Wait for about a year to discover new American atrocities (aerial bombings, etc) during this period of distraction.

@Phil,
could be it’s a warning to any and all not to send any troops to the proposed international forces that might end this round of fighting.

Israel has accused the UNIFIL in Lebanon of collaborating with Hezbollah. That is their mandate, they have to talk with the local residents. They can’t just ignore them and make progress in the peace process.

This strike cannot be a mistake because they bombed the same place yesterday, and I’m _sure_ that it was made clear to them that it was an UN base.

Fuck Israel after this I don’t have any symphaty towards them palestinians and all the other arabs can do whatever they please to them.

Although I do know that those ‘smart’ bombs are american made so they are bound to hit everything else expect the target like hospitals, schools, UN etc.

So who to blaime US for letting this happen and arming these idiots or the murdering state of Israel who dares to call herself a civilized nation.

sorry for the emotional post I’m just so f’king angry

We have to remember that Israel is fighting a “defensive” war. The UN observers must’ve been a serious threat to the security of Israel.

I bet that they’re testing some newkind of weaponry in this conflict, payed by the american military-industrial complex.

i’m just waiting for winter and his oh-so-clever comments

i’m just waiting for winter and his oh-so-clever comments

I’m waiting for KGS59 and his spin. After all, he’s all about how everything bad about the ME is because of them steenkin’ a-rabs and how Israel wants nothing but to shower the world with peace, love and teddybears. Some teddybear it was that hit that bunker.

#12 are you angry because one finn was killed or because you are against the war in general? Do you care about innocent jewish people killed all the time by palestinians?

At least killed finn was not a civil person or a tourist, he was peacekeeper sent to war zone. I don’t think he was sent against his own desire. If Finland send his citizen to war zone, then it’s a problem of Finland.

I’m not trying to justify this accident but death of soldier and civil person during war are two different things.

Can anyone find a map of the Blue Stream Pipeline that extends from Russia to Turkey and then onward to Syria and Lebanon?

I ask because a new segment has recently been planned. It is to extend into Israel (from Lebanon, I presume). If we look at the exact route and geography, then maybe it will elucidate the reason for this conflict.

It might also explain why the US quietly approves of Israel’s actions–that is, construction and other energy-related contracts are probably at stake.

Here is a map of the pipeline:
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/images/locations/caspian/map_pipeline_caspian_594x370.gif

Here is a general map of the ME:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_ref04.jpg

As I mentioned, the pipeline now extends through Syria and Lebanon (although it’s not shown on the map), but now needs to connect with Israel. Does anyone else think that Hezbollah might be standing in Israel’s way of completing the pipeline? Can anyone find a better map?

@Belino,
artillery does not fire itself by accident. This was deliberate. By Israeli standards, Finland, China (which has nukes), Canada (and a fourth country I can’t recall now) should bomb Tel Aviv by way of retaliation.

#16
Yes I’m angry because a UN officials were killed and yes I am against the war in general but this attack against the UN was the final straw for me. I did care about the innocent israelis that were killed because of ignorant suicide bombers but not anymore.

If hizbollah is a terrorist oganization then what is the State of Israel then.

Modern Israel isn’t any better than fundamentalist muslims. It’s a nation build on religion, driven by religion with similiar type of ideology that the nazis had (master race anyone?)

And it doesn’t matter if the people murdered were tourists, civilians or UN peacekeepers it’s equally bad when the attack is and was (deliberate) (don’t know if I spelled that right but what I mean is -on purpose).

Sorry that previous link didn’t post correctly. There’s a pipline map on this page. Again, it doesn’t show the Syria and Lebanon sections, nor the planned Israel route.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5352447

Hopefully, this one worked

And as prince of dorkness said it with the logic that the US and Israel use Finland and China and others should now bomb the shit out of Tel Aviv

It is war that is going on there! I think that UN observers should have been called off on that area a great while ago, because it is quite obvious that they can not provide peace on the war-zone since they are only observating peace there. And when militants are using common people as human-shields it is impossible to avoid the innocent victims…

War is insane!

Bullshit then how come Israel has only managed to kill civilians and only few hizbollah guerrilas with their high-tech-weaponry even hizbollah has managed to kill more iraeli soldiers than Israel hizbollah guerrilas. I do agree that avoiding civilian casualties is hard but deliberate attacks against them that is something I can’t understand

And all this war is hell crap is fucking retarded and if you don’t mind me asking how were they supposed to get out of there when all the road and bridges and any other means of escaping the area was made impossible. And besides it was cearly marked UN post but oh I forgot the evil UN is working alonside with the Hizbollah.

“And besides it was cearly marked UN post but oh I forgot the evil UN is working alonside with the Hizbollah.”

That is what it looks like in the photo, doesn’t it:

Bombing shocks MPs’ aids

yep and the source is the candadian jewish news

*canadian

That is what it looks like in the photo, doesn’t it:

I would have more respect for Israel – and American neocon knuckleheads – if they stated openly their belief that the UN is a terrorist organisation.

It is war that is going on there! I think that UN observers should have been called off on that area a great while ago,

You just can’t please neocon knuckleheads, can you? If you don’t bomb children, you’re a coward who does nothing for world peace, but you’re supposed to run away the moment some actual fighting takes place.

@Fred Fry
Yes, the UN should not work with the people of Lebanon, only with their foreign enemies. It’s a strategy that’s worked brilliantly for the US, the UK and for Israel as well, making them loved and respected all over the Middle East.

It’s a strategy that’s worked brilliantly for the US, the UK and for Israel as well, making them loved and respected all over the Middle East.

Oderint, dum metuant.

@Anonymous,
if the neocons could only be that honest. Whiners.

Oh what have we here? Finnish antisemites crawling from under every rock when ONE S O L D I E R was killed on a active war zone.

I was not very surprised to hear Tuomioja blasting Israel immediatly with the “they seem to be killing everyone else but the hizullah”..

Well, considering they like to hunker down amongst the civilian population / near UN troops, it is not very surprising that this kind of shit goes down there.

Rip for the dead soldiers, including the 12 Israeli soldiers that just died today..

Oh, did you guys hear that Israel was actually firing at its own troops with a UAV yesterday.. Friendly fire, it happens…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman

Peacekeepers? They sure did their job.

The EU has the gall to critize the USA on Iraq? And this is a good example of your handywork?

Me thinks you all live in a glass house.

“but you’re supposed to run away the moment some actual fighting takes place.”

Well….. Thats exactly what you EU guys do……… run

ok… ok.. you do offer free Dental Car

Oh what have we here? Finnish antisemites crawling from under every rock when ONE S O L D I E R was killed on a active war zone.

Ok, kudos for being the first knucklehead to wave the antisemitism card.

I was not very surprised to hear Tuomioja blasting Israel immediatly with the “they seem to be killing everyone else but the hizullah”..

As that’s exactly what they’re doing.

Oh, did you guys hear that Israel was actually firing at its own troops with a UAV yesterday.. Friendly fire, it happens…

How often does it happen 16 times in a row?

@winter,
this is not our handiwork but yours. Your bombs raining down on the Lebanese. Their blood on your hands. And if we only joined you in the slaughter, you’d love us for it. Misery loves company.

winter:
Peacekeepers? They sure did their job.

Been doing their best since 1948. Of course, being unarmed and not in the business of killing children, their efforts don’t count.

I’m going to ask a stupid question here.. Was Israel attacked first, or was it the other way around?

Did the UN folks help Israel or DID THEY GIVE HELP to Hezbollah? When the 2 Israel’s were taken?

I think you became a target when you HELPED Hezbollah.

Now go home.

@STP,
remind me again, what did Israel do when some of its soldiers were captured in an active war zone?

I’m going to ask a stupid question here.. Was Israel attacked first, or was it the other way around?

Israel was definitely the first party to kill civilians in this conflict. Next question.

Shorter winter: the UN, with black helicopters, helped the Hizbollah to attack Israel and was therefore a legitimate target.
Uh-oh, the UN headquarters is still in New York, making the city a legitimate target. I’d start evacuating now, if I were the DHS.

I’ll tell you one thing, we Americans are gonna sit back and enjoy this mess. Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.

# 16, bellino…

What about the children dying in Lebanon, or palestine? Or the unofficial hundred thousands in Iraq….

I cannot justify any behavior of Israel for the fact that this and that many israelis died… As it happens, for every one dead israel, they kill ten. Now talk about justice.

sad thing is, the third world war will start because of that 7 million populated country, who, like a commenter said believes in the “the master race” ideology, forgetting the price the world has paid. And surely walking in the same direction themselves.

No need to say how bad this is, eh?

Israel has to stop shitting all over the world, while the extremist Islamists have to stop playing into their hands… Or the whole humanity will pay…

Uh-oh, the UN headquarters is still in New York, making the city a legitimate target. I’d start evacuating now, if I were the DHS.

Yeh, lez n00k noo y00k in ritalination!

Lets go back to WW2. FINLAND was attacked first by Russia.

Finland killed Russian’s including women. Is that not a war defense of a Homeland.

Well do we live in a glass house yet? Or is Finland guilty of a war crime as the UN sec general thinks?

I’ll tell you one thing, we Americans are gonna sit back and enjoy this mess. Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.

Yeah, just like the Soviet Union was not directly involved in the Cuban missile crisis.

@winter, post 38:
We are home. Why aren’t you?
@Phil, post 42,
who do you think is rushing in more bombs and ammo to Israel?

winter:
Lets go back to WW2.

Current events being a bit too much for your tiny brain?

“Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.”

OH but Phil… this is just the start.

The US was asked to go to DARFUR… we declined. Lets all sit back and watch another million folks die there as well.

And its going to happen again, and again. we will be just sitting by….watching

I for one think.. its about time we became the watchers. Now we can blame the UN and the EU for the mess.

Come on EU.. do something

@45,
can’t figure out what you’re saying. If you mean the prison camps in East Carelia, our bad. A war crime, to be sure. Now let’s see you admit the same about Israeli prison camps for starters, shall we? (Israelis are not even American, just foreigners quite as foreign as the French, remember, so patriotism should not prevent you from admitting facts.)

Israeli messages to Lebanon (you must visit this link)
http://fromisrael2lebanon.info/

I’m just saying that the UN observers had no capacity nor the authorization to take part in stopping the war-siccuation. In other words, they were not able to do anything in achieving the peace on that area.

“UN observers had no capacity ”

Thats bull. They could have blocked the road forcing the release of the Israel’s.

Bottom line. You do nothing, and just like in Yugoslovia, when 7,000 folks were frog marched off to a machine gun.

Blood on your hands EU. Blood on your hands.

This is not the first time for Israel to tagret UN forces.

No one mentioned about a the well-known Qana massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/qana.html

Did the UN folks help Israel or DID THEY GIVE HELP to Hezbollah? When the 2 Israel’s were taken?

Now go home.

What the christ? What on earth makes you think that UNTSO-forces were giving help to the Hezbollah? They are a neutral party observing and reporting possible violations in the area.

That said, I have a hard time believing that this was intentional. The Israelis have nothing to gain from shelling and destroying a UN observation post. My guess is that someone just fucked up big time.

winter has intervention so hard-wired into his brain he can’t understand that a war is not the fault of the people who stay out of it. That is, the US can’t be blamed for not joining in the two world wars from day one. Indeed, their attempts to stay clear were quite commendable.
Likewise, it is not the fault of the EU or the UN if Sudan collapses into civil war. (The Brits may have some vestigial blame as they created the bloody place, but even that’s gotta have some statute of limitations.)
And since the only side so far to have fired on us is the Israelis, should we pick our side accordingly, in the event of being dragged into this mess? I know, Americans were happy to forget about the USS Liberty massacre in 1967, but maybe we’re less forgiving.

If this wasn’t an accident – or incompetence rather – what was it? A declaration of war, more or less, on the UN?

If this wasn’t an accident – or incompetence rather – what was it? A declaration of war, more or less, on the UN?

That would be only logical. We know the UN is bad, bad, bad, bad. Evil, I tell you!

“yep and the source is the candadian jewish news”

Would you prefer the LA Times: (Are you suggesting that the story in the picture is fake because of the source? Are you suggesting that some jews crossed that barb wire fence and put the flag there with the UN doing nothing? What kind os news source do you expect from inside Israel?)

“Hezbollah guerrillas were setting up rocket launchers near U.N. positions, (UN) spokesman Milos Strugar said.

Three of the U.N. stations along the border had been hit by Israeli artillery, and the organization was unable to move desperately needed aid convoys onto roads that were coming under heavy bombardment, he said.”

lebanon20jul20,0,4733925,full.story”>Bombs Rain on Bunker in Beirut

.

#27:
“I would have more respect for Israel – and American neocon knuckleheads – if they stated openly their belief that the UN is a terrorist organisation.”

There is no need to admit nothing if you would take all the facts into account. What is your explanation for this:

“The UN says it would obscure the faces of people in the film suspected of being Hezbollah guerrillas, in order to protect UN staff from retribution.”

The joke is, UN soldiers probably died needlessly now all because the UN would not provide exidence in 2000 of kidnappers then. Is it possible that the kidnappers were the very same people that the UN could have stopped in 2000?

Row grows over UN’s Hezbollah video – BBC 2001

“The Lebanese authorities have slammed a decision by the United Nations to show Israel a controversial video tape related to the abduction of three Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah fighters last October.”

“The film was shot by Indian peacekeepers just a few hours after Hezbollah fighters abducted three Israeli soldiers on the border.

The 30-minute video reportedly shows bloodstained vehicles, forged license plates and bogus UN uniforms believed to have been used by Hezbollah to lure the Israelis.

The Hezbollah movement has also denounced the UN for saying it will hand the video over. (Of Course they would)

Faces hidden – The UN maintains that the film sheds no new light on the circumstances of the abduction. But Israel believes that even now, nine months after the event, the film could give its analysts clues that could help identify who took the men, and where they were taken.

The UN says it would obscure the faces of people in the film suspected of being Hezbollah guerrillas, in order to protect UN staff from retribution.

But Israel is demanding to see the tape unedited, and to question UN soldiers who were there at the time.

UN suspected – On Sunday the Israeli press reported that Israel even suspected UN troops of helping Hezbollah kidnap the soldiers.

The spokesman for the UN’s operations in south Lebanon, Timur Goksel, strongly denied that. He said there was no contact at any time between UN troops and the kidnappers.”

If this is not taking sides, then I do not know what else is. What else did the UN permit Hezbollah to do to protect their peacekeepers?

So, if the UN is practically the same as Hezbollah, why do we keep getting bullshit from the Israelis how this was all just a mistake?

“So, if the UN is practically the same as Hezbollah, why do we keep getting bullshit from the Israelis how this was all just a mistake?”

Could it be that they were aiming at Hezbollah and the UN got in the way? Are you really that dense to not understand how these terrorists operate?

The funny thing, all the outrage on this post would be exactly the same if it was a Hezbollah missile that hit the UN post.

It is sad that the UN has basically done nothing to disarm this group other than order that it happen. The UN’s main crime is inaction.

@61,
“I wasn’t even there and I can prove it plus I didn’t do anything and she was asking for it and I know my rights and you’d have done the same thing…”

Well this visualization looks proporionate: http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm

Depressing. Glad to see where technology, with all our smart bombs, has got us. Just waiting for the UN’s response to Israel, which will probably go something like in the movie Team America, “…we will be very angry with you… and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.”

Could it be that they were aiming at Hezbollah and the UN got in the way? Are you really that dense to not understand how these terrorists operate?

Yeah, the observation post popped up from the ground right after the Israeli pilot had fired at that Katyusha launcher. That must be it. Thanks for clearing it up.

The funny thing, all the outrage on this post would be exactly the same if it was a Hezbollah missile that hit the UN post.

So? It wasn’t. Seems that Hezbollah with their outdated Soviet materiel have a better aim than the Israelis with their high-tech American stuff. Unless, of course…

It is sad that the UN has basically done nothing to disarm this group other than order that it happen. The UN’s main crime is inaction.

For the benefit of the knuckleheads in the audience, the UNTSO’s mandate.

Last time I checked, following your mandate as an unarmed observer was not criminal.

who do you think is rushing in more bombs and ammo to Israel?

It’s isn’t our fault if they do bad things with those bombs and ammo.

On post number 6.

Surely the point was that the US should interveene POLITICALLY, not militarily! That is to say put political pressure on Israel, not send the army over.

“Yeah, the observation post popped up from the ground right after the Israeli pilot had fired at that Katyusha launcher. That must be it. Thanks for clearing it up.”
– You almost got that comment right. It would be more correct like this:

‘Yeah, the Katyusha launcher popped up from the ground next to the UN observation post right before the Israeli pilot had fired at that Katyusha launcher. That must be it. Thanks for clearing it up.’

– Yeah, this sounds more accurate.

“Seems that Hezbollah with their outdated Soviet materiel have a better aim than the Israelis with their high-tech American stuff. Unless, of course…”

– NOBODY other than you is suggesting that Hezbollah is using outdated soviet crap. This stuff is new equipment. So the question is, which countries are arming Hezbollah in violation of UN mandate 1559 calling for the disarming of Hezbollah.

“For the benefit of the knuckleheads in the audience, the UNTSO’s mandate.”

– Thank you for pointing out that the UN mandate for UNIFIL was toothless. The mandate also doe not include COLLUSION with Hezbollah.

Do I really need to point out that it was Hezbollah who attacked US and French peacekeepers killing 299 of them.

E Maya:

“Surely the point was that the US should interveene POLITICALLY, not militarily! That is to say put political pressure on Israel, not send the army over.”

Why should the US do anything? Perhaps they will, but not before Hezbollah is crippled.

ebi,

“Well this visualization looks proporionate: http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm ”

How many of those Lebanese coffins are filled with terrorists?

some of those coffins are filled with the very same people who days earlier celebrated the kidnapping of the two solderiers and the death of eight of their comrades.

Anyway, the only way to make them stop is to make the price to high to participate.

Hooray! I’m glad to hear a Finnish UN soldier is dead. Serves Finland right to participate with a force that helped Hezbollah kidnap Israeli soldiers in the first place.

The extermination of UN forces is always welcome news.

@Fred Fry
Do I really need to point out that the US and the French exceeded their peacekeeping mandate in 1982 and became a side in the Lebanese civil war, making them a legitimate target? The Brits and the Italians stuck to their mandate that time; no-one bombed them.

Hate to break it to you phil but this is not one of those things that you can make a *joke* of

finnidiot go fuck yourself

Hooray! I’m glad to hear a Finnish UN soldier is dead. Serves Finland right to participate with a force that helped Hezbollah kidnap Israeli soldiers in the first place.

It would be very welcome to hear honest comments like this from the Israelis and other neocons. So far we’ve been getting pure, genuine Texas bullshit.

@Fred Fry,
since when is the capture of combat troops kidnapping, BTW?
I suppose since you stopped recognizing the category of POW. And of course, terrorism, if it means anything at all, means violence directed against civilians in order to terrorise a nation or similar community. Which is what the ongoing Israeli terror bombings are all about.

“@Fred Fry
Do I really need to point out that the US and the French exceeded their peacekeeping mandate in 1982 and became a side in the Lebanese civil war, making them a legitimate target? The Brits and the Italians stuck to their mandate that time; no-one bombed them.”

- And a perfect reason for them not to get involved this time. Thank you for excusing away acts of terror. We all know how terrorists follow mandates, like 1559 calling for Hezbollah to disarm itself. That was mandated two years ago.

I belive that Finland is ignoring a mandate to rid itself of anti-personell mines. Why would they do that?

Everyone is so concerned that the US is arming Israel. Who is arming Hezbollah? You know you can’t but 120mm rockets in a gun shop, not even in the US!

Yeah, the Katyusha launcher popped up from the ground next to the UN observation post
…
- NOBODY other than you is suggesting that Hezbollah is using outdated soviet crap. This stuff is new equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha

New equipment indeed, in the knucklehead universe.

I’ve never read such rubbish about the UN helping Hezbollah to kidnap Israeli soldiers. It’s quite sickening to read in the aftermath of innocent UN observers being killed in a clearly designated UN facility.

I think Erkki Tuomioja’s remarks that Israel’s targeted strikes seems to be hitting everything except for Hezbollah were very apt.

The fact that some people can condone such widespread and totally pointless loss of civilian life in Libanon is to me inhuman.

Israel has a right to reasonable defence. But what it is doing is completely disproportionate and sickening. It will just lead to more Arabs sympathising with the terrorist groups against Israel. It will just lead to even more escalation in the pointless cycle of killing of innocents.

The USA could do something about this. It has tremendous leverage on Israel. But instead, it chooses to rush over to them more arms and refuses to call for a ceasefire.

I’ll tell you one thing, we Americans are gonna sit back and enjoy this mess. Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.

Phil, you’re right on. I’ve been enjoying this war immensely. As soon as it began, I started tracking the stock market, and bought some mutual funds, as the market reacted with predictable jitters and became artificially undervalued. I’ve been eyeing an opportunity to buy Fidelity Canada, which is always a good buy for oil and commodities; finally, I got some.

As to the war, it’s an example of “The-Hour-of-Europe-Has-Come-It’s-Time-To-Negotiate-For-A-Few-Weeks”.
Europe has a real opportunity to step up to the plate, and they know it. But, just like Yugoslavia in 1992 (when the term “Hour Of Europe” was coined) all of them seem to be waiting for… US leadership.

“Thank you for excusing acts of terror.” Fred Fry
You’re welcome, but I did no such thing, unless you redefine terror to include all attacks on all military targets, which might be a consistent position, of course. And yes, when USS New Jersey drops 16 inch shells on Lebanese Muslims forces, the Muslim forces in question can consider US forces to be at war with them.

Finnpundit:
Phil, you’re right on. I’ve been enjoying this war immensely.

In case you missed it, post 51 contains a link to some images that’ll probably heighten your pleasure. HTH.

‘Europe has a real opportunity to step up to the plate, and they know it. But, just like Yugoslavia in 1992 (when the term “Hour Of Europe” was coined) all of them seem to be waiting for… US leadership.’

Javier Solana visited Israel very quickly after the start of the war, as did several EU foreign ministers. But it is USA that is the country that supplies them with financial and military aid. The USA has the influence over Israel to stop its actions. In fact, you could easily argue that the USA is indirectly responsible for the crisis continuing so long through its refusal to use its influence on Israel.

I do agree though, EU/Europe should be tougher against Israel. We should suspend interaction with them in the EU neighbourhood policy as a clear political message that human rights violations are unacceptable and we will not stand-by and listened to them to be excused as “reasonable self-defence” when this is clearly not the case.

Well, the funny thing is Israel believes that Hezbollah shouldn’t exist because it’s sole purpose is to destroy Israel.

Hezbollah believes Israel shouldn’t exist because it’s Israel.

Can you now see why the fighting isn’t going to stop and how innocent bystandards are going to be killed by both sides?

@Sam, post 83
Now that’s a not unreasonable position, but I’m fairly certain the Hezbollah knows it cannot destroy Israel (only the Israelis can) and I sort of hope the Israelis will realize the same thing about their neighbours. I mean, they invaded Lebanon in 1982 and managed to replace the rather inept PLO with the Hezbollah. The broke the PLO and got Hamas. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist.

JG, I’ve got news for you. Europe provides financial and military aid to Israel, too, especially Germany.

But in either case, why should the US want Israelis to stop, when Hesbollah are enemies of the US, too? The idea is to kill the enemy, and their collaborators. If you don’t want to go to war, don’t support those who do.

“New equipment indeed, in the knucklehead universe.”

Lets just say your right, does Soviet equipement not kill?
(what about those AK-47s? Soviet technology, right?)

However, you are wrong: (and name calling doesn’t say much about you.)

“Among the nations to acquire these rockets were several Middle Eastern countries like Iran, Syria, and Egypt that used the weapons against Israel during the Six Day War of 1967. Iran, in particular, began building its own copies of the Soviet Katyusha as well as improved models and supplied many thousands of these to terrorist groups for attacks against Israel. Once manufactured in Iran, the rockets were transported through Syria to militants in Lebanon. Attacks began in earnest during the 1980s when Hezbollah, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), and other groups launched hundreds of rockets into northern Israel. The attacks eventually led Israel to invade Lebanon to push the terrorist groups north and out of range of Israeli towns.”

“Once Israel completed its withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah again reoccupied positions along the border to fire rockets south. The organization has also continued to receive a variety of more advanced rockets of greater range and destructive power from its sponsors in Iran. Though exact details are sketchy, it is believed that Hezbollah’s stockpile includes older Katyusha rockets, known as the Arash in Iran, with a range of 12 miles (20 km) as well as improved third-generation rockets that can travel up to 50 miles (80 km). These improved models may include the Iranian 240-mm Fajr-3 with a 100-lb (45-kg) warhead and a range of 25 miles (40 km), the 333-mm Fajr-5 carrying a 200-lb (90-kg) warhead up to 45 miles (75 km), and the 333-mm Shahin-1 and Shahin-2 that can carry a 420-lb (190-kg) warhead over distances of 8 miles (13 km) and 12 miles (20 km), respectively. Iran has also apparently supplied Hezbollah with the very large Zelzal-2 rocket that can loft a 1,300-lb (600-kg) warhead as much as 125 miles (200 kg) bringing even cities in central and southern Israel within range of rocket attacks from Lebanon.”

Katyusha & Qassam Rockets

#51
looks like a new generation of fuckups is growing in Israel.
It just gives me ‘great joy’ to see those girls writing those messages to the children of Lebanon.

#39 pod
“remind me again, what did Israel do when some of its soldiers were captured in an active war zone”

This is a lie. Two members of the IDF were abducted after the patrol was ambushed by Hezbollah in Shtulah just inside the Israeli border. It was not an “active war zone” nor was there a declared war. Hezbollah instigated the whole thing, but as they state clearly their aims are to destroy Israel why do people want to defend them?

Despite what the Jew haters here think, this all could have been avoided if the 2 soldiers were returned. Lebananon is incabable, or not willing, of stopping Hezbollah using their southern border as a base of operations. There are reaping the whirlwind for their failure to confront the problem (not that murdering Israilis is considered a “problem” to some).

@85,
‘Why should the US want the Israelis to stop’ – how about, because they’re not doing very well?

post #88 Yeah I admit it I’m a jew hater also I’m a nazi hater, muslim hater, christian hater etc. etc.

I hate all violent ideologies especially the master race type of ideology

“This is a lie. Two members of the IDF were abducted after the patrol was ambushed by Hezbollah in Shtulah just inside the Israeli border. It was not an “active war zone” nor was there a declared war. Hezbollah instigated the whole thing, but as they state clearly their aims are to destroy Israel why do people want to defend them?”

Also remember that Hezbollah killed 8 to capture the two, and this happened right near a UN outpost.

#91
well did the hizbollah bomb the UN post?

@88,
remind me, when did Israel make peace with either Lebanon or Hezbollah? The Hezb are heroes to many, maybe most Lebanese for driving the Israelis out of Southern Lebanon. The Israelis left unilaterally. There was no peace made.
And of course, the Lebanese could say, if Israel gave us Sheba Farms and the kidnapped Lebanese they are holding and perhaps (if it’s not too much to ask) stopped financing terrorist groups in Lebanon, this could also have been avoided.

#51 + #87

That picture was taken pretty well out of context, it’s explained in the following link (or click my name).

http://ontheface.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/7/20/2142505.html

@89
At the moment, you’re probably right. But Israel still doesn’t have much alternative. Negotiations and Cease fire if they work, will only be temporary and peace keepers have been tried before, but the US is skeptical because last time we had Peace Keepers in Beruit they couldn’t do anything and then they had their Barracks were blown up.

If Hezbollah can really be disarmed and Lebanon Government made soverign, that might be the only real solution… but I probably sound like an Israeli spokesperson saying this.

Israel is doing very well, indeed. This was quick thinking on the part of Olmert, to realize that not only was it necessary to stand firm on Hezbollah’s kidnapping, but also to see the opportunity to strike a wider blow against Hezbollah.

But in any case, there is a second “war”, the European war against Israel and the US. This one is definitely going well for Israel/US, as Europeans once again demonstrate their weakness and irrelevancy in attempting to do something about the crisis. The decades of anti-semitic indoctrination in Europe is taking its toll, and gets paid back in lack of influence and sway on the international stage.

Every dead UN soldier is a victory in this struggle. The UN remains one of the most corrupt organizations in the world, exemplifying the kind of politics Europeans themselves emulate. So hopefully we will see more UN casualties, and if they be Finnish ones, so much the better.

Lets just say your right, does Soviet equipement not kill?

A good hit to the head with a club will definitely kill (except perhaps a particularly thick-skulled knucklehead), but clubs are a little bit outdated in modern warfare nonetheless. As are rocket launchers from the 1930s that are known to be inaccurate.

@Fred Fry (#69)

A lot less than innocent women and children for sure. Yes Isreal have a right to defend themselves, but I feel they have taken it way too far when so many innocent people are killed. Yes those cowardly Hezbollah are hiding among civilans, but I doesnt accept that as an excuse. If Israel are after Hezbollah, they should go after Hezbollah, not just bomb the shit out of Lebanon. Seems to me like Israel just don’t care about collateral damage, but im sure the new breed of terrorists will clear that up for them.

Lets say a terrorist organization would be shooting rockets from Haaparanta (sweden) to Tornio and the swedes were not doing anything about it. Lets say they were shooting these rockets from next to a UN post with 4 guys inside it.

What would a Finnish military commander do?

It is a damned if you do, damned if you do not kind of a situation.

Finnpundit do you enjoy masturbating over dead peacekeepers and especially over finnish peacekeepers?

are you sociopath or simply just retarded although that would be insulting to the retards and psychopaths because you’re clearly beneath them.

I feel they have taken it way too far when so many innocent people are killed. Yes those cowardly Hezbollah are hiding among civilans, but I doesnt accept that as an excuse.

Such civilians become the responsibility of combatants using them as human shields. It is Hezbollah that commits the crime, not Israel, in this case.

However, the part of southern Lebanon where most of the attacks take place is populated by Shiite Muslims who actively support and vote for Hezbollah, thus becoming their collaborationists. And, if you vote for parties that want war (as Hamas and Hezbollah do) don’t be surprised if you get yourself into a war.

The parents of those children should be ashamed for subjecting their children to this carnage.

This is a lie. Two members of the IDF were abducted after the patrol was ambushed by Hezbollah in Shtulah just inside the Israeli border. It was not an “active war zone” nor was there a declared war.

Oh, there is a declared war now? Sorry, I missed the declaration of war.

Hezbollah instigated the whole thing, but as they state clearly their aims are to destroy Israel why do people want to defend them?

I do not defend Hezbollah, on the contrary, I wish that Israel would occasionally strike them instead of butchering innocents.

Despite what the Jew haters here think

I’m not a Jew-hater, I’m just not a childkiller like you.

this all could have been avoided if the 2 soldiers were returned.

Israel officially denies that their operation is directly linked with the abduction of two soldiers. But anything goes in the knucklehead universe.

(not that murdering Israilis is considered a “problem” to some).

Or the murder of Lebanese civilians or UN observers. Look at Finnpundit, he’s getting off like a spidermonkey.

you should be ashamed of yourself, finnpundit

Ebi,

If you are concerned about the ‘children’ there are 10s of thousands dying and being killed in North Korea without a care or concern from the west.

Anyway, Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties where Hezbollah is trying to maximize them.

“A good hit to the head with a club will definitely kill (except perhaps a particularly thick-skulled knucklehead), but clubs are a little bit outdated in modern warfare nonetheless. As are rocket launchers from the 1930s that are known to be inaccurate.”

- It is those inaccurate rockets that are killing people in Israel. would you feel safe know that they were aiming inaccurate rockets at the city you were living in? (your too afraid to even post your name. How brave are our words!)

is fred fry your real name

@103,
and your evidence that Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties?
Of course, the HB is using weapons mainly so crude they can’t aim them with any precision. Using them to bombard Israel is wrong. I’m not in the business of defending anyone’s crimes.

Prince of Dorkness – “Americans were happy to forget about the USS Liberty massacre in 1967, but maybe we’re less forgiving.”

Well, it wasn’t declassified until very recently and most Americans have never heard of Israel firing upon the NSA eavesdropping ship known as the USS Liberty. It was classified since the guys on that ship knew that Israel started the 6-day war and that even the then General Sharon was personally involved with point-blank execution-style massacres of surrendering Egyptians as that was what they were listening to just before the Israelis attacked their ship. The Israelis even have bits of the torpedo ship that attacked the Liberty in a museum as a much revered object of military might. 34 Americans died in that attack that Israel claimed was a mistake for a rusty old Egyptian boat that never left port during the conflict.

Read Bamford’s book on the NSA for a rather long and detailed account of the attack and the follow-up but….it reads just like the same old play book Israel has used for years.

Personally, I keep hoping aliens come down and terraform the whole region leaving nothing to fight over and noone to fight.

@100,
and the difference between Finnpundit’s views on how the Lebanese deserve all they get and Ward Churchill’s notorious ‘Little Eichmanns’ statement about how some of the people in the Twin Towers deserved it, is precisely what?

Nobody goes out and targets kids deliberately (well, almost nobody: we can leave the Chechens out), and it is the responsibility of adults to get kids out of harms way. But Hezbollah is definitely using the children of Shiite families in southern Lebanon as a tactical tool in this war.

I think it’s hard for us westerners to comprehend that, but it points to the predominance of clan-thinking in Arabic cultures: as long as the kids are not from my family (suku), then I don’t see the problem.

It is this kind of thinking that, also, devalues Muslim lives. In fact, we could say that Muslim lives are not as important, simply because Muslims are so willing to part with life. A true multiculturalist would have to respect that, odious as that may be.

@105

Proof that they’re trying to avoid civilian casulties? They’re not just carpet bombing, leveling or using atom bombs on southern Lebanon. A ginormous nuclear warhead would probably be the easiest way to destroy Hezbollah. (Tongue in Cheek!)

10 friggin times they warned Israelis about the UN post. This is no accident, more like deliberate murder.

@109,
‘My client only killed two people when he had the ammunition to kill many, many more. Obviously he is innocent of all charges.’

I remember Finnpundit whining a while back how some persons in Finland allegedly made bad remarks of the people who died on 9/11. Is this your way to get revenge or what? I find your death wishes for the Finnish peace keepers in very bad taste.

It’s somewhat nauseating, though not that surprising, to see that Finnpundit get’s his cum spurting over peacekeeper corpses. I always suspected him to be somekind of vile and loathsome, inhuman creature, but even for him this a new low.

No Äboy we are just bigots for critisizing usa and israel but it’s okay to masturbate over dead finnish peacekeepers, it’s normal isn’t it?

@111, Yep, that’s the joke. Also bravo on @107, A+

110. I certainly hope that it wasn’t an accident. That would have been lame, indeed. The UN forces actively collaborated with the Hezbollah: therefore, they were a legitimate target.

Pity the poor dumb Finn who got killed, though: he probably was naive enough not to know about the bribery that was going on between the UN forces and Hezbollah, given Finns’ well-known penchant for honesty and idealism. But that’s what happens when you support the UN with your eyes wide shut.

Any more dumb Finns out there ready to be killed? Let’s hope so. It’s the naive ones, in the end, that provide the cover for the corruption.

#42 You Americans sat back, enjoyed and delivered weapons to our enemy in 1939-40 too. In ‘Raatteen tie’ is buried 20.000 attackers. I am not going to mention which religion they represented.

Well, as any army is practically a hell of a big government office with the guns, it wouldn’t surprise me, if this really was an accident, but as the participants in the Middle-Eastern crisis generally don’t show any decency, it could be anything. Israel says (at least), it OK’s some kind of international force in the South-Lebanon, so this could be also an attempt to manipulate the outcome, i.e. the composition and mandate of this force. Obviously, they don’t want the UN-style operation there, but somebody else to take the scheisse instead of their own army.

And for the (10^15)th time, criticizing Israel doesn’t make you a jew hater, although their PR people are happy to have everybody to believe so.

In general, I think the tragedy of the Middle-East is that they have plenty of clever tacticians on all sides, but not a single clever strategist, who would not be blinded by the urge to exhibit their balls to everyone not willing to see. If they had, they wouldn’t have been in this most recent scheisse for the last 60 years, but flourishing while milking the rest of the world with their oil, some damn Jesus themeparks and high-tech products. But nooo, these guys can only devise a clever plan to survive ’til tomorrow and pull that stunt again in tomorrow ad infinitum. If they could choose having one candy right now or a box of candy after five minutes, they would steal the box and have some policeman they know to arrange them out of it.

I think Mr. Finnpundit’s reach for our buttons is showing a bit too well today. But as was demonstrated, even the UN missions are not always just cold drinks by the pool and sun lotion, perhaps with a picture of tower on the tube.

yeah finnpundit way to go.
I pesonally enjoy and masturbate everytime americans get killed those poor idiots deserved it. Oh and how I remember the day when the twin towers fell I came like a jetplane oh good days

#70 So we are even Finnpundit. I am glad to hear your illiterate torturing soldiers killed. We are not on the same side and have never been.

Pity the poor dumb Finn who got killed, though: he probably was naive enough not to know about the bribery that was going on between the UN forces and Hezbollah, given Finns’ well-known penchant for honesty and idealism.

What a surprising concession. “Finnish honesty” isn’t a myth, after all, according to Finnpundit.

We are not on the same side and have never been.

That’s been my thesis for quite some time. The welfare states of Europe are the de facto enemies of the US.

@hfb, post 106,
in the meantime, waiting for the aliens, I suppose it’s better to have Israel inside your tent, pissing out rather than the other way around.

#51 Abu

Nice agit-prop. Kids were bored of sitting in bombshelters for 5 days and were egged on by foreign photographers to write on the 155mm shells to get the shot.

http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2006/07/how_to_demonize.html

#101

“Oh, there is a declared war now? Sorry, I missed the declaration of war.”
Your reading skills need improvement. Go back and read up.

“I do not defend Hezbollah, on the contrary, I wish that Israel would occasionally strike them instead of butchering innocents.”

What makes you think they are not striking Hezbollah? IDF reports they are being shot out from mosques, schools and hospitals. May sound strange, but I’ve heard the same from US vets in Iraq. Civilians make great shields and when their dead, great propaganda. Look how much its got your panties in a twist. SOP for terror groups, but the IDF and US Army do the best they can with the realities they face on the ground, not your armchair.

“… I’m just not a childkiller like you.”

No, I never had an abortion.

“Israel officially denies that their operation is directly linked with the abduction of two soldiers. But anything goes in the knucklehead universe.”

Proof?

Do you weep as much for all the innocent people Hezbollah murdered over the years or just “Lebanese civilians and UN observers” allegedly killed by the IDF? This all begins and ends with Hezbollah and their supporters. Actions – consequences.

I start to agree with Finnpundit in that he and his kind are an enemy of every decent people living in Europe as well as in the USA and everywhere else on this planet. Perhaps we should indeed start to act accordingly.

Finnpundit: is jormanen a welfare state supporter? I though he was your fellow right-winger or at least a moderate conservative.

Boy am I glad the IDF doesn’t consist of a bunch of Finnpundits. If they did, all of our peacekeepers would get ambushed without any provocation of their own.

Finnpundit, if you really wish a war between Europe and the US, you’re probably with the Hezbollah. A transatlantic rift is neither in the US nor in the EU interests, nor is it in Israeli or Lebanese interests.

You say Hezbollah doesn’t give much about human life. Yeah, you know what, they don’t but even they seem to care more than you do. You also seem to think that since none of your family are peacekeepers, they might as well die. What have you been smoking today?

From Guardian:

Annan: Israel bombed UN base for hours
…
“But the shelling started in the morning and went on until after 7pm. You cannot imagine the anguish of the unarmed men and women peacekeepers who were there.”

According to a detailed timeline of the incident provided by an unidentified UN officer and reported by CNN, the first bomb exploded around 200 metres from the post at 1.20pm (11.20am BST) yesterday.

Unifil observers then telephoned their designated contact with the Israeli military, who assured them the attacks would stop. In the following hours, nine more bombs fell close to the post, each one followed by a call to the Israeli military, the UN officer said.

The main Unifil base in the town of Naqoura lost contact with the post at 7.40pm, seemingly the time when the post received a direct hit…..”

What a bumbling idiots these Israeli “soldiers” really are…

118. Israel says (at least), it OK’s some kind of international force in the South-Lebanon, so this could be also an attempt to manipulate the outcome, i.e. the composition and mandate of this force. Obviously, they don’t want the UN-style operation there, but somebody else to take the scheisse instead of their own army.

Antti, your analysis seems quite apt. Israel needs to send the message that the UN cannot be a part of the solution, given its corruption. But Israel did surprise a lot of Europeans for welcoming some sort of international force along its borders. If such a force becomes a reality, it is necessary to demonstrate in advance the price of collaboration.

This is, indeed, “The Hour of Europe”. Europeans have many times offered their troops as buffers; will they do it now?

jormanen: sorry if I assumed that you’re not a welfare state supporter. After all, I guess in Finland some kind of a welfare state is almost universally supported by conservatives, not least by moderate ones. Finnpundit is just so extreme I don’t know how to respond to him today. He’s floating far out there, man.

@124,
I’m done weeping (too much history reading), but still get annoyed by lies, doublethink and BS.

Finnpundit is just so extreme I don’t know how to respond to him today. He’s floating far out there, man.

C’mon, he’s giving his best today!

Yep, the West is not doing well anyway thanks to the neocons getting their disastrous and disastrously incompetent way with George W. It is really a kind of a cultural death wish to hope for a permanent deep rift, even war (for God’s sake) between Europe and the USA. Finnpundit’s “opinions” don’t border with pathological, they happily cross far into bonkers territory. What is scary is that these idiotic, morally corrupt opinions actually have quite a bit of currency in the US (though not yet in the hard core elites – and not meaning any tree hugging East Coast Ivy League intellectuals – but that might be only a matter of time with these trends.

Well when war between usa and europe begins I do hope that finnpundit will enlist himself and join the fight and hopefully gets shipped to Finland

@132,
Finnpundit’s strategic thinking does make me wonder if he’s channeling GRÖFAZ…

A transatlantic rift is neither in the US nor in the EU interests, nor is it in Israeli or Lebanese interests.

A rift is very much in the interests of the US, as the US has everything to gain from distancing itself from the European welfare state model. And European leaders instinctively know this: it is the fear of this rift that has caused them to be more accommodating to Condoleezza Rice’s diplomatic initiatives.

The greatest danger is for Americans to believe that Europeans are, fundamentally, friends and allies: they are not. All policy thinking should be based on this assumption.

Finn-puke-it wrote:
“If such a force becomes a reality, it is necessary to demonstrate in advance the price of collaboration.”

I do hope that no-one will make an example out of anyone who’s dear to you (if such people even exist given your sadistic, aloof tendencies), because if they do, you might just enjoy it.

Festung Amerika – sieg heil… I suppose the rift – or war – would be funded by Asian central banks as everything else. Maybe you should just nuke us to save the hard borrowed dollars?

hey finnpundit can you promise when the great war begins that you will join your *army* and come to Finland? It would give me great joy if you would

That Europeans are America’s main enemy is the wet dream of Osama bin Laden.

And can you believe that people actually believe the crap that finn-puke-it spews out of his mouth back in the states

Its become pretty interesting to see the EU support the attackers of a country.

Yep.. that the basic idea. Support the guy who attacked first, after all he was in the right.

Can anyone say food-for-oil to explain why? History repeating itself?

bzzz islamo-fascist
bzbzz bush good you evil
bzzz free dental-care
Bzzz french white-flag waving
Bzzzz uups I soiled myself bzzz

winter, I was already missing your deep wisdom from this thread: will you join Finnpundit’s triumphant Panzers while we sissily try to fight on the beaches and landing grounds in Europe? Btw, as you mentioned the food for oil, might you have the missing billions from the Coalition Authority’s great reign in Bagdad – freedom of the market in very action…

winter wrote:
“Can anyone say food-for-oil to explain why? History repeating itself?”

Can you say Guantanamo bay? What about Patrit Act? And then there are the secret US prisons around eastern Europe, of course. But what about My Lai? And Haditha?

Of course you don’t know about these things or really understand what I’m talking about because all these things and places are making your head spin and all those complicated foreign names are so funny-looking and confusing. Afterall even G.W.Bush knows that Jesus spoke english and that if it was good enough for Him it should be good enough for everyone.

Yes, just keep on chewing on your burger and listening to your “fair and balanced” “news”.

..and don’t forget your “freedom fries”!

#124 pod

I’m done weeping.., but still get annoyed by lies, doublethink and BS.

But it doesn’t seem to stop you from perpetuating them.

I hate lies as well and have no problem changing my opinion when facts no longer support it. However based on my experiences and readings, you always need to question the source of your information or you may end up on the wrong side of history.

You know, I really can’t believe that anybody in the States would take seriously what Finnpundit is saying. Yeah, there is the anti-European crowd there (as we have our share of anti-Americans here) but no decent people would take what Finnpundit is saying today seriously. Al-Qaeda people, if they’re fanatic enough, could relate to what Finnpundit is saying (some of them have already bombed Europe) but no, Americans are not craving for our blood and rejoicing when our soldiers get killed. Finnpundit is today tuning his message to some segment of the addict population that have lost their touch with reality altogether. Someone on a permanent acid trip might nod approvingly to what Finnpundit is saying but not Americans who are seriously into politics. I know there are kooks into politics but no, Finnpundit is playing his fiddle to the kook crowd who are not connected at all.

All this bashing on both sides is making me a little bit naucious, but at the same time I am surprised how critical Finns tend to be of Israel / US. At the same time completely forgetting to ask questions like, “how on earth did the hizbollah get 12 000 rockets to a small country that was supposedly under UN observation..”

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002608.html

147: Helsinkian, are you so sure? I know it is a fringe thing at the moment, but much less fringe than what it used to be. Sure, the National Review doesn’t mindlessly advocate a permanent rift or even war with Europe like some latter day Völkischer Beobachter, but even they ceaselessly engage in completely pointless and destructive sniping against “Europe” – in the sense that really does not seem to serve any serious American national interest (as a great and powerful Republic) even if coldly and amorally calculated – no, instead the underlaying agenda seems to be some very poisonous ideology indeed. I wouldn’t be so sure that the multitude of these rants are harmless and not effecting the national discourse.

148: Well, actually I have much more sympathy towards Israel than Syria or Iran which really are hateful police states. I just don’t think that this present attack will serve its purpose (which is quite admirable). If fact, it very probably will be counter effective and very harmful indeed to Israel’s interests and security as a liberal democratic state (winter, this last term does not mean that they would be any pinko-homo-commies). A failed Lebanon is not in Isreal’s rational interest.

mjr: Sniping on Europe is one thing but what Finnpundit is doing today is beyond the pale.

I have no problem with the anti-European crowd in the US being critical of our society. They have a freedom of speech, exactly like we Europeans of different persuasions enjoy. What Finnpundit is saying is not about freedom of speech, it’s the same thing that the islamofascists are doing, spewing pure blind hatred.

winter, are you by any chance featured on this little piece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp4iI59BfpQ&search=stupid%20americans

Helsinkian: No, but what I mean is that it is ceaseless, deeply irrational criticism (not far from sheer hatred), even from sources that used to be rational. It is moreover directly against the most selfish American interests – scarily so. I have no problem about the fact that there are conservatives in the US (or Europe) who are very critical about the social democratic model. It just seems to go far beyond that.

Of course, I have no quarrel about Finnpundit being beyond pale – he is deeply in the anorak territory, but I am not sure that he is it as much as he would have been 10 years ago. And that’s very worrying.

..or in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7-mHgXpE60&NR

prince of dorknes – Nah, I don’t like crazy freaks on either side of the tent and all sides of this equation are crazy fools with artillery. I’ll just keep hoping for the aliens and terraforming.

And you all should just try to ignore Finnpundit as he’s a minority and getting off on trolling so easily. The bit about the USS Liberty and losing 34 Americans should simply tell you one thing…and that is if the US is willing to pretend Israel didn’t kill it’s own people and keep it secret for decades, you can be very, very sure that the US isn’t going to react to the death of a single Finnish UN peacekeeper.

A failed Lebanon is neither in Lebanese nor in Israeli interests. It could be in Iranian or Syrian interests, more perhaps Iranian than Syrian.

Israel’s goal is not Lebanon as a failed state, it is the admirable one of disarming Hezbollah.

Yet I’m not at all sure Israel can disarm Hezbollah. It’s not that the other Lebanese politicians would have lacked the will of disarming Hezbollah, they all would have been better off without Hezbollah bringing them closer toward disaster by the day. They were simply incapable of doing that. I’m a bit of a pessimist and I think the IDF will not succeed in disarming Hezbollah, either.

Like many here have said any blows that the IDF can deal to Hezbollah are welcome and would help Lebanon to attain stability but any blows to the non-Hezbollah Lebanese, the country as a whole not to speak of the fragile democratic structures and to foreigners in Lebanon, such as UN troops, are counterproductive. I know that at war innocent people always die but there is a point to the war only if there is a realistic possibility for Israel to attain their goal which is disarming Hezbollah. Breaking the structure of Lebanese society on the way to attaining that goal would be a prohibitive price and ultimately turn out to be counterproductive. It’s a fine balance and Lebanon is a very fragile country and the country as a whole is certainly not Israel’s natural enemy.

you can be very, very sure that the US isn’t going to react to the death of a single Finnish UN peacekeeper.

You’re saying that as if someone was expecting it.

But anyways, the Finnish UNTSO officer along with the three others gave his life for Middle East peace. We can count on the knuckleheads to keep yapping how Finland, or the EU, contributes nothing.

The USA doesn’t want to break up with Europe. The US strategy is to remain the the sole super power, the last think it wants to do is give Europe a reason to challenge its hegemony … benevolent hegemony, sorry.

It’s childish to think that the little differences in welfare systems had anything to do with this bigger picture. Perhaps Finn”pundit” is a child?

hfb: Doesn’t terraforming mean making the region habitable? I first thought you were one of those anti-Middle Eastern people who’d say hopefully they all kill each other over there, then peace will arrive. If you’re one of those, you can be sure there were folks thinking that way about the US in the 1860s, Finland in 1918 or Europe in WWI & WWII. Something like, all these humans do is kill each other, hopefully they get wiped out and some sensible aliens come here instead.

Whereas I’m pessimistic when it comes to the IDF attaining their war goals (if they disarm Hezbollah, I’ll sure be happy about that), I think peace in the region is possible. The democratic development in Lebanon was the best promise for the Middle East and I certainly hope that it will turn out to be irreversible. If the Lebanese can live in peace with each other after all that happened there, I’m sure anyone can. Hezbollah is holding their entire Lebanese nation as hostage and it’s very sad to look at. It’s such a terrible shame they couldn’t be disarmed.

I guess what we’ll have is some sort of international force to keep the peace and plenty of more sacrifices from peacekeepers. That’s sure a better bet than aliens.

Leave welfare to Phil’s other post today (which doesn’t have any comments on as of yet).

There is a long tradition of anti-Israel sentiment in Finland. The popular opinion here still seems to be biased against Israel. Of course both sides in this conflict are very wrong indeed, but I dislike Hezbollah more for being such fanatics.

#161 They both are fanatics

And yes, I would be very very happy if the IDF somehow managed to disarm the Hezz.

#162 I disagree, Israel is at least a partial democracy ruled by relative moderates.

m: there’s also a strong pro-Israeli sentiment in Finland. We have both.

Then there are many Finns who are completely neutral. The pro-Israelis tell them, you can’t be neutral, if you’re neutral, you’re biased. The anti-Israelis tell them the same.

Whereas I think there are regrettably many anti-Israelis in Finland, there aren’t that many anti-Semites. Finnpundit of course has written that Finland and Sweden are full of anti-Semites:

http://finnpundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/brilliant-idea.html

My honest observation is that Finland strives toward neutrality in the Middle Eastern crisis and ultimately I hope that Israel will see Finland’s honest intentions. Both European and North American countries have a democratic development in the Middle East as their hope, which is also Israel’s best bet for peace and security. Some of the dictatorial régimes in the Middle East do not hope for such a development because they would be wiped out in the process.

Personally I’m more pro-Israeli than neutral because taking side against people like Hezbollah feels quite natural to me. Still, I’m very critical of some of the results of the previous Israeli invasion to Lebanon in 1982. Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon was a good idea and it would have worked, had it not been for Hezbollah’s insane war politics. Israel should not repeat the mistakes made in the past. Today’s Israeli government is quite moderate and I don’t expect them to go overdrive, they’re just desperate to take out Hezbollah. But I don’t expect them to take out Hezbollah, the task is too difficult and complicated and the past history of the mistakes made after the initial success of 1982 make the Israeli position in Lebanon a very difficult one.

Yes, I was careful not to use the word anti-semite since luckily I haven’t seen much of that here.

Leave welfare to Phil’s other post today (which doesn’t have any comments on as of yet).

Phil forgot to point out how the welfare state was ultimately responsible for the deaths of the four UNTSO officers. Losing your touch, Phil. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

#166 then which posts are anti-semite here?

Post #169 FTW!

#12 O went pretty far. When an anti-Israeli text says that the enemies of Israel “can do whatever they want with them” I really can’t think of anything but what has happened to Jews throughout history when “whatever” has been allowed to happen. Maybe O meant that Hezbollah % co. could do whatever they like with even Arab Israelis, not just Jewish Israelis, but for me it sounded anti-Semitic.

I have no sympathy either with those who say that the IDF should do “whatever” with Lebanese, who are Arabs. Interestingly enough, we haven’t seen much anti-Arab bigotry on this thread, just Finnpundit who gloats whenever a Finn or other UN observer gets killed.

I can’t believe how someone can support Israel with this conflict, mass civilian murdering country. I can’t believe how someone can support terrorist groups either, but to support a terrorist state like Israel, it’s just sick.

Those 2 kidnapped israeli solders are just an excuse to start ww3, or at least a conflict which might easyly expand to the whole middle east, possibly north Africa too.

Some people here seem to think it’s ok for israel to kill hundreds of civilians, just because terrorists have killed israeli civilians. “you did this so I do it too” is so kindergarten thinking, but we all know Isreal’s leaders are as wackos as terrorist leaders.

Let’s replace the poor (dead) observers in the UN station with a fistful of *unarmed* US peacekeepers (wearing blue helmets, of course)
Do you think Israelis’ aim would finally improve?

“Phil forgot to point out how the welfare state was ultimately responsible for the deaths of the four UNTSO officers. Losing your touch, Phil. Tsk, tsk, tsk. “

Hey, that reminds me… I was in Helsinki today and all hamburger/hot-dog/kebab kiosks were closed…again. There were millions of people roaming the city with money in their pockets, but the kiosks were closed anyway—now, during tourist-season. Are all these kiosk owners living off the welfare state or something?

Sorry this is off-topic, but it’s very frustrating for a hungry soul, like me.

Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni and Amir Peretz are not wackos. They are politicians like Bush and Blair are.

I think Israel has a great national consensus behind their government and talented people at the helm.

Now the talented leaders of Israel also are inexperienced at military matters. One way to see it is that the Israelis finally can trust moderates with a civilian background to lead the country. The other way is that whatever all the faults of Ariel Sharon were (not all of his experience was positive, quite the contrary), he was a realist and military tactic of some sort. The criticism against the current Israeli operation stems from the real possibility that they are trying a military solution to a problem that can’t be solved that easily militarily. At least they can’t solve Lebanon’s problems. They might create a buffer zone and make it more difficult for Hezbollah to launch rockets but if that’s the only damage done to Hezbollah and much more damage is being done to the rest of Lebanon, Hezbollah may be able to weather the storm and win adherents among people who weren’t for them in the past.

Yet Hezbollah’s actions have been so insane lately that my bet is that they will be weakened by this in the end. Will they be weakened enough to justify all the casualties (and were they on their way to be weakened in any case), remains to be seen.

But if Olmert and his cabinet fail with reaching their goal militarily, they are more than capable to use diplomatic channels. They are not unreasonable wackos or anywhere close to fanaticism. Anyone who has seen religious wackos and terrorists on both sides of the conflict knows that they are nothing like the current Israeli cabinet. On the Lebanese side the only wackos are Hezbollah, despite all the atrocities of the past of all sides. Almost everyone in the Lebanese cabinet and everyone in the Israeli cabinet are sensible people who are capable to accept a peaceful solution. This is why it is so incredibly tragic that Hezbollah were allowed to decide that war is the best solution when it clearly isn’t between Israel and Lebanon.

156 – Helsinkian: Couldn’t really agree more. I just see this current effort as feeding militancy and not extinguishing it. A prosperous, democratic and Western oriented Lebanon would surely have been mortally dangerous to Teheran and Damascus – and Hizbollah. Now Israel playing with the very same fire that led to a humiliating withdrawal in the first place.

jon stewart on lebanon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1kqKesPz5w&search=stewart%20lebanon

Uh oh? The hamburger/hot-dog/kebab kiosks are open only in the night when the “real” restaurants are closed.

#170
Helsinkian, I was really pissed off when I wrote that comment and I still am.

If you think that I am a anti-semite then I am also anti-muslim, anti-christian, anti-nazi, anti-every-hateful-ideology etc. etc.

As I said I have no symphaty towards jews, muslims etc.

And yes I’m against the state of Israel a nation build on religion, driven by religion with a similiar type of ideology that a-hole hitler had.

“The hamburger/hot-dog/kebab kiosks are open only in the night when the “real” restaurants are closed.”

Yes, I know they have their sparse hours. Then they close entirely for the Winter and Spring.

Hizbollah, Jews, Gas Pipelines… I just don’t understand how we can solve the world’s problems if we can’t even find an overpriced kerros hampurilainen here at home.

#178

Hitler was actually more pegan relatively secular (Nizche wasn’t quite Christian with the whole ‘Superman’ theory and God is dead stuff). Add the soviet gulags and deportations to siberia and the khemir rouge and secularism is just as deadly.

The decision to build a nation (which is really a people) on a religion is their culteral perogative. It might not be smart, but that doesn’t make them genocidal maniacs.

#168 here = Finland

This “God is dead stuff” is IMO a misinterpretation. It was more of a statement of fact (regarding secular Europe) than a religious statement.

“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.” is a better quotation.

#182

Correct, that is in better context. But the final solution and Aryan superman was partially allowed by the lack of sacredness of life or sort of an ‘ends justifies the means’ type thing. You probably have a better finger on what it’s about than I do. Thanks for the correction.

crap read your books boy

secularism and humanism aren’t deadly and they aren’t synonyms for
communism or nazism.

and Hitler was catholic.

wow this winter style writing is cool

Great stuff on that Jon Stewart clip btw.

Winter must be one of the best fed trolls ever.

Seriously, don’t feed it or it will follow you home.

war is hell, Israel has been at war with Hizbolah for a LOOONG time…life goes on, you dont like war ? dont go there, you dont like war ? dont turn your TV on, and chill out at the lake ,,its summer…

one day if russia ever does anything in secret against finland, or as we know …oppps did we pass the into Finish airspace ? oops,,, i dont wanna see any of you bitching and moaning…. Dont like the situation in the middle east ? pick a side and join their military and stop you bitching… Nothing you ganna do about it but bitch…waaa, you dont like it ? go over there and do soemthing about it. ill sit here fishing. ahh life is great when your having fun

life is great when nukes are dropping

Here is a UNIFIL Press release from today:
UNIFIL press release (PDF)

Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage.

Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday.

It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri.

All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.

@hfb,
what I meant was you wouldn’t want these mothers pissed at you. Or finding new friends to play with, given the toys they have.
@O, post 178,
Israel is a weird mixture of Eastern European ethnic nationalism and late colonial imperialism, but the Nazi comparison isn’t fair. And it was built on secular nationalism, some ultra-religious Jews still regard it as blasphemous. I can actually empathize with the poor buggers born into that situation, I’m a nationalist too. Blood and soil and all that. But I still can’t see what Olmert et al imagine they can achive with this.

#190
Okay the nazi comparison may be too rough but the fact remains that jews I’m not saying that all the jews believe this but the ones I met in Israel do believe that they are the people of god and therefor better than us ordinary humans.

Israel is a theocratic nation on a mission given to them by god.

Helsinkian

No more talk about “A failed Lebanon “. The pacifists think shooting rockets at Israel is ok, but Israel can’t shoot back. Or shutter, try to get their solders back… shutter

or

“admirable one of disarming Hezbollah.” You can’t have good intensions when you defend your country.

Bottom line: Israel just needs to sit there and take it. Those Israel wimps need a spine.

Why: Because we armchair Generals in the EU SAID SO. And by the way those rockets flying overhead are great crowd pleasers. Can’t wait for the Iranian nukes to get done.

Options: Why we don’t have any. We can run and hide, but offering options to Israel is not what we do. We do hold the French white Flag of surrender very well.

#94 and #124:

I am not blaming the kids, but there is something seriously wrong with adults who:
1) Let kids near live ammo
2) Give them markers to write with
3) Do this in front of 12 photographers

Man is dead.

Poor Omert had no real military glory behind him and was so vulnerable to his generals’ pressure to do a bit easy Hezbollah mopping in the Southern Lebanon. General’s wishes were granted and the damn thing turns out to be not doable in one short week or so. Shit happens and it did again. What to do now, since the PR war have been already lost; Hezbollah is still there and propably always will? Short and long term security is not achieved and in the long term it just might have gone way down. The perpetual conflict machine just keeps on going on and on and on…

Sorry for the emotional post.

I see no other no way forward anymore than EU to continue to max support for palestians (as much as I hate regheads) and UN complete weapons embargo to Israel.

Let the promised land sunk into the sea of mud. There’s no truth in their actions or speech. So, keeping them arbitarily alive is unnatural. Burn and rise no more.

angry finn

Just give them a Nuke. It will all be over soon.

winter

That would be splendid, finish what nazis couldn’t finish.

Promised land my ass, “kill all the jews, they are just trouble.” And the USA is licking Israel’s arse.

Israel is the butch and US is the bitch. How sad…

…for the rest of the world.

UN station with a fistful of *unarmed* US peacekeepers (wearing blue helmets, of course)

Last time a US president even suggested that (Clinton) we had every officer ready to quit on him. He got the message, to send in US troups with weapons, or not at all.

Seems like the UN never learned that lesson.

I get #200

reports say:

Hezbollah fighters, who have already been firing behind screens of women and children, have also been shooting from behind and next to the UN positions

Can the jeering critics of Israel stop catcalling for a minute and explain how Israel is to defend itself against an enemy that shoots from among women and children, and from behind UN soldiers? Can they explain why they are such apologists for terrorists?

the Canadian peacekeeper killed there had previously emailed that Hizballah was using their post as cover.

Looks like the UN and Hezbollah are traditionally good buddies.

and

why the UN had manned the outpost in Lebanon near the Israeli border as bombs exploded all around.

Finland needs to ask the UN why.

Belmont Club, a rather significant American blogsite, has taken up the task of examining the evidence regarding this event, replete with maps:

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2006/07/knife-thrower-at-carnival-2.html

Wretchard, it might be noted, hasn’t been as quick as Finnish Kommie Klutz Kidz (and their himbo academic mentors) to come to hasty conclusions, either pro or con.

And while we’re at it, here’s a nice map showing the “tremendous” amount of real estate destroyed in Beirut:

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/07/reports_destruc.html

It’s obvious that the IDF is only targeting those landlords in the Shiite neighborhoods in the south that stored the weapons the UN was supposed to guard against.

All in all, it seems that this kind of information will likely never surface in Finnish media, so thank goodness for Americans like Phil, and these other blogsites, to provide a venue for an alternative point of view.

An excellent blog entry from the British-African mathematician, Abiola Lapite, entitled “The Myth of Proportionality”. The choice parts:

”The only worthwhile measure of “proportionality” in a military conflict is whether or not the actions being carried out suffice to achieve the ends for which they are undertaken – and by that method, Israel’s response cannot be characterized as “disproportionate”: indeed, I’ll go so far as to say that the more likely problem in the current conflict is that the Israeli government, burdened by delusional notions of “proportionality”, will avoid going all out to crush Hezbollah rapidly, opting instead for the kind of “proportional”, half-hearted actions which achieve little even though they bring just as much international condemnation as the more effective measures left on the table.

Then again, what am I saying? These are the same Europeans who drag their citizens to court for “disproportionately” [sic] defending themselves against intruders into their own homes …”

Read the whole thing, as they say:

http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2006/07/the_myth_of_pro.html#trackback

This is why ceace fire is impossible to be established:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=699486

“#117 You Americans sat back, enjoyed and delivered weapons to our enemy in 1939-40 too. In ‘Raatteen tie’ is buried 20.000 attackers. I am not going to mention which religion they represented.”

That’s not even close to being true. The US didn’t supply the USSR until they were at war with Germany. In fact, there was a lot of sympathy for Finland in the US during the Winter War.

Why would the US supply communists that were at that time allied with Hitler?

when good men do nothing… now, ill just have to stand up for everything good in this world. fuck you finnpundit and your onedimensional thinking. This will not do.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/7/26/132855/130

its not all about money.

Finnpundit:
Wretchard, it might be noted, hasn’t been as quick as Finnish Kommie Klutz Kidz (and their himbo academic mentors) to come to hasty conclusions, either pro or con.

I’m sure the Pfizer factories will be working 24/7 to accommodate your needs if this turns out to be an accident – or have you busted your wrist already?

On this thread we have seen the less pleasant face of modern US conservatism/libertarianism – bit like arguing with stormtroopers as the final say lies with the bombs. Real violence is mimicked in the crude rhetoric, reminiscent of 1930′s. These views are certainly fringe (Phil, where have all the classy libertarians/conservatives gone from your site??) belonging to almost, yes, masturbatory anorak class craziness, but I find it still scary how loud this howling has gotten these last years. The sound of it easily carries to the centres of decision and power, and has some influence, even if indirect. Worrying times indeed.

winter: You say you can’t have good intentions when you defend your country.

But you can. You have to think of the endgame. If you think of the 1919 Versailles peace treaty, a little bit of good intentions might have been helpful. After WWII, there were plenty of good intentions. If it hadn’t been for all the good stuff done to rebuild Western Europe after WWII, America would never have won the Cold War. You’re one of those people who say “use force” in every situation and then when it comes to the aftermath, forget about it. But force can actually be used so that you also have some intentions about what will happen when the guns fall silent. Those intentions can be bad (“after I win the war, I’ll torture enemy prisoners, rape civilians, raze their cities to the ground so that they’ll never rise again etc. etc.”) or they can be good (“after I win the war, I’ll help my neighbors to recover and do what’s in my best interest so that they would have something else to do than seek revenge against me”). Thankfully there are people in the Israeli government who have long dreamed of a Middle East where a prosperous Israel is neighboring a prosperous Lebanon. If the IDF would be thinking like winter, the aim would be war like there is no tomorrow. But the aim of this war is not war itself. The winter recipe to all conflicts seems to be use force to the max and forget about collateral damage. So some “armchair generals” say use restraint, think strategically, etc. when you’re saying the IDF can’t do that since they’re actually in the middle of a war. Fine. But the people in the Israeli government don’t think like that. They are actually very sorry about what happened to the UN observers. You are not and I guess you couldn’t care less, but thankfully you aren’t making decisions for Israel and thankfully neither is Finnpundit.

Nobody is even asking Israel to rebuild Lebanon after the war. Many countries will willingly finance that. But Lebanon is really a country where there is great potential sympathy toward Israel and really a country that could easily live in peace with Israel. There is all the reason to use force proportionately so that the targets are Hezbollah, not everything that moves and stays still.

With “proportionately” I don’t mean Israel should count that Hezbollah suffers exactly as many casualties as Israel. That’s ridiculous. No, I’m saying that Israel should aim at Hezbollah, not at Lebanon as a country, or at UN but that goes without saying.

To sum it up, I think you know pretty well what I mean with good intentions. You maximize the casualties of enemy combatants and minimize those of outsiders. That’s a noble way of waging war and that’s the kind of good intentions that both Americans and Israelis usually tend to be proud of. But what you’re saying is that Israel just should maximize casualties period. That’s what it means to have no good intentions at war. No matter how many civilian casualties that means, no matter how many UN observers that means, no matter what it’ll cost to the IDF, even.

daily show bush believes in fairy tales scary

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3_onLwRUIEU&mode=related&search=daily%20show

Hopefully Finnpundit doesn’t have access to this blog’s log files – after all Phil has given him the right to use the server earlier to post blog entries. It’s not a pleasant idea that this psychopath whose sick dreams revolve around war and massacred people, in particular Finns, could have access to any hints of who the people who write here really are.

Then again if, somebody like Phil knows who Finnpundit himself really is, perhaps it would be a good idea to let his family know that fellow’s mental stability seems to be deteriorating fast.

It’s not a pleasant idea that this psychopath whose sick dreams revolve around war and massacred people, in particular Finns, could have access to any hints of who the people who write here really are.

This is my primary reason to post anonymously, but I’m still worried.

Oh, I’ve already forwarded all the information to the CIA, who’ve been busy planting spyware into each and everyone of yours’ computers.

#69 .Fred Fry.

How many of those Lebanese coffins are filled with terrorists?
some of those coffins are filled with the very same people who days earlier celebrated the kidnapping of the two solderiers and the death of eight of their comrades.

So, rejoicing for the kidnap of two enemy soldiers is terrorism!
Who gave you the right to classify people this way?

Well, I rejoiced for the kidnap in Gaza and Lebanon. Come and kill me! or tell the CIA to depart me to Guantanamo!

#94 -Sam-

lengthy story, but it does not pay

All civilian victims being used as human shields are the victims of the people using them as shields. I have no sympathy at all for the people who willingly accommodate terrorists in their midst. They become collaborationists, and legitimate targets.

But that’s already beside the point. The most important thing to keep in mind is that most of the Middle East combatants derive a source of pleasure from this conflict. That’s why there’s no support for ending the conflict, and achieving lasting peace. It is a causa sui project, on a massive scale.

Israel’s project is very limited in that aspect, as it’s all about survival. But for the Arab colossus that surrounds them, the project is much more pathological, as it’s a source of self-generated meaning.

Take away Israel, and the Arab world would need to find a new victim to demonize. Too much energy has been vested in destroying Israel to be able to kick the habit which has become so culturally ingrained.

#100 @Finnpundit

However, the part of southern Lebanon where most of the attacks take place is populated by Shiite Muslims who actively support and vote for Hezbollah, thus becoming their collaborationists. And, if you vote for parties that want war (as Hamas and Hezbollah do) don’t be surprised if you get yourself into a war.

This is the democracy US promotes in the ME.
Instead of the old intelligence methods, just hold an elections and kill the voters and the elects if you don’t like the result

There is a fundamental question:
Why do you think that Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist parties?

Oh, I’ve already forwarded all the information to the CIA, who’ve been busy planting spyware into each and everyone of yours’ computers.

I’m more worried about you starting your private war against the Kommie Klutz Kidz. Then again, you lack the balls.

I’ve already forwarded all the information to the CIA, who’ve been busy planting spyware into each and everyone of yours’ computers.

You’re a confused little shit, aren’t you …

Arabs are quite dense when it comes to thinking about democracy. Of course the US promotes democracy in the ME, and that continues to be a good policy. But Arabs tend to think that a democratic state becomes unaccountable for the choices its voters make. On the contrary, the voters become even more accountable than before they had voting rights.

If Hamas and Hezbollah support war and terrorism, and their voters vote them in power, then the voters themselves have chosen war and terrorism and… have to deal with the consequences.

As Hamas was chosen by the Palestinian people, and as Hamas practices terrorism, and as terrorism justifies its own destruction, Hamas has legitimized the extermination of the Palestinian people. Thanks to Israeli patience, I doubt that that will happen, but the Palestinian people have made a choice for war and terrorism, and have to live with the consequences.

Same goes for Hezbollah. All of its supporters are collaborationists, and become legitimate targets for extermination.

Next time around, Muslim political party leaders might consider toning down their cries for war, and voters should reconsider their allegiances before they go out and vote.

The only thing that the United States is promoting in the Middle East is its own economic self interest, and maintenance of access to the means of accellerating global warming (cheap oil for SUVs), as well as avoiding alienating taht large part of the US electorate who think that Israel is inherently virtuous and can do no wrong.

If it gave two shits about democracy, it would have overthrown the Saudi Arabian dynasty years ago, instead of propping it up.

Al Zawahiri said today:

In a taped message broadcast by al-Jazeera television, Ayman al-Zawahri, second in command to Osama bin Laden, said al-Qaida now saw “all the world as a battlefield open in front of us.”

The Egyptian-born physician said Hizbullah and Palestinian fighting against Israel would not be ended with “cease-fires or agreements.”

“The war with Israel does not depend on cease-fires … . It is a Jihad for God’s sake and will last until (our) religion prevails…from Spain to Iraq,” al-Zawahri said. “We will attack everywhere.”

.. People, pull your heads out of your asses. This thing was started my fundamental muslims. Not by US / Israel.

#219

Well, in year 2001 -5 years before Hamas being elected- Israelis elected Ariel Sharon who bears personal responsibility on Sabra and Shatila massacres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon#Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

The support enjoyed by Hamas and Hezbollah among their respective constituents is an understandable, if wrong-headed reaction of a population that feels threatened and humiliated by an outside power.

The psychology behind this is not all that different from the surge in popularity enjoyed by the US Republican party and the Bush administration after 9/11. In all those cases, the extremists benefit politically by tapping into local emotions on a feelgood level, ignoring the damage inflicted by the hard-liners on the interests of the people themselves.

213 Abu Omar,

“So, rejoicing for the kidnap of two enemy soldiers is terrorism!
Who gave you the right to classify people this way?”

- No, that is taking sides. They were celebrating because ‘their’ side had a victory. These are the same people who chant for the death of Israel. So what is the problem when Israel blows them to a million pieces? (and it was the kidnapping of two and the murder of 8 others)
- Anyway, the casualties on the Lebanon side are being distorted, unless of course Israel has managed to kill ONLY civilians and no Hezbollah terrorists.

I heard this on the radio last night and think it is so true:

“There will never be peace in the middle east until their side learns to love their children MORE than they hate Israel.”

“Well, I rejoiced for the kidnap in Gaza and Lebanon. Come and kill me! or tell the CIA to depart me to Guantanamo!”

- Sad Omar, sad. Go and read the quote above again, and again.
- Where are you hiding out anyway Omar? If you feel so strongly about this why don’t you go and do something about it. I suspect that Hezbollah can use your help!
(and yes, I have already been to the middle east. Lovely place)

“The only thing that the United States is promoting in the Middle East is its own economic self interest, and maintenance of access to the means of accellerating global warming (cheap oil for SUVs), as well as avoiding alienating taht large part of the US electorate who think that Israel is inherently virtuous and can do no wrong.”
- I am sorry, but the last time I checked, the US does not import any Iranian oil. It is the Frence and Germans who are dealing with that devil. (hence the failure of the nuclear negotiations)

****** Strange, there is no mention of the Canadian General who was on the news last night talking about the UN post that was struck and how Hezbollah was regularly firing missiles from beside the post? The repost came out that the Israeli fire was within 3 meters of the post, but aimed at the rockets not the UN. ******

The report did get me thinking, maybe Israel did strike the base on purpose, to send a message to HEzbollah that they can’t hide behind anybody. Maybe……..

“…the last time I checked, the US does not import any Iranian oil.”

Well, if that isn’t the mother of all non-sequiturs!

Not buying Iranian oil (at least officially – it is extremely difficult to determine the exact origin of the contents of a particular tanker) in no way proves that promoting democracy is a real priority of policy in the Middle East – no matter what the neocon spin-doctors say.

The US never had any problem with the imperial autocracy of the Shah that the present Iranian Islamist theocracy replaced. The US was also a happy buyer of Saddam Hussein’s oil and had no problem with his waging a war of aggression against Iran. It was only when the invasion of Kuwait (not exactly a shining example of democratic ideals) was seen as bad for business, that Saddam Hussein suddenly became the devil incarnate.

The United States has a long history of actually undermining democratically-elected governments if doing so promotes its business interests and the consolidation of its global hegemony. The promotion of democracy is a convenient smokescreen to make such actions more politically palatable.

“Where are you hiding out anyway Omar?”

What exactly would you do with that information?

I am sorry, but the last time I checked, the US does not import any Iranian oil.

This really makes no difference. Iran can affect the world market price and that’s all it takes, regardless of where Merkins physically get their SUV juice.

The report did get me thinking, maybe Israel did strike the base on purpose, to send a message to HEzbollah that they can’t hide behind anybody. Maybe……..

In the wingnut universe, this option is at the same time unthinkable and just.

224. Abu, the articles themselves mention that the massacres were committed by Maronite Christians, not Sharon. Try to read up on your links before submitting them as evidence.

In either case, the Israelis take it for granted that they are in a constant state of war, and Israeli voters take that into account on a regular basis when they go out and vote. They never assume, like a lot of naive Arabs new to democracy, that they’re not responsible for their choices. When they go out on the offensive, they are quite capable of understanding the ramifications of that for their entire nation, unlike Arabs who fail to take into consideration what their actions would mean to other Arabs and Muslims.

“…maybe Israel did strike the base on purpose, to send a message to HEzbollah that they can’t hide behind anybody.”

There’s a word for killing people as a way of “sending messages” – terrorism.

@229,
and it’s not like an occupying power that has promised to maintain order (as any civilized power is bound to do) has any duty to actually do so, instead of handing masses of defenseless civilians over to be massacred.
A bit like the US policy in Iraq, when you think about it.

#224
These are the same people who chant for the death of Israel. So what is the problem when Israel blows them to a million pieces?

I am really stunned by your logic
So, instead of dialoging with the other party you simply like to “blow them to a million pieces”

This kind of argument that legitimise the immediate use of power to exterminate the “other” without giving a chance for dialog, is the sole of terrorism.
Fred Fry, You are imitating their thoughts, no doubt

If a group of Finns stand in Helsinki center and start chanting “death to Russia”, will that give Russia the right to immediately blow them into million pieces?

@230,
you don’t get it, it’s only terrorism if the other side does it. Try getting a definition of terror or terrorism out of these guys. Something that could be used to test if an action is terrorism or not.

“…the massacres were committed by Maronite Christians, not Sharon.”

Murder by proxy is still murder.

“Israelis … never assume, like a lot of naive Arabs new to democracy, that they’re not responsible for their choices. When they go out on the offensive, they are quite capable of understanding the ramifications of that for their entire nation.”

In fact, Israelis have shown themselves to be remarkably similar to their Arab enemies in maintaining the cycle of violence with little thought of the real consequences – for their adversaries, or themselves.

#229

the articles themselves mention that the massacres were committed by Maronite Christians, not Sharon.

Well, my point is that Kahan Commission accused Ariel Sharon to the personal responsibility of the massacre.

the Israelis take it for granted that they are in a constant state of war,

That tells the whole story …
Despite the peace agreements with Egypt, Jordan and PLO, they still assume that they are at war!

Being at war with the “other” is the sole of Israeli creed. That should explain a lot

The New York Post screams “The Darkest Day” this morning because 8 Israeli soldiers died. But eight seems like a drop in the bucket. Across the US the pro-Israel spin machine is in full force. “They are like us, we are them…” they say.

But really, the Israelis are not us. We are not them. Sure we give them tons of cash, and tons of weapons, but we don’t control what they do. We can pressure them, but if you gave any young punk with an axe to grind a gun and some cash – you actually think he’d listen to you after the transaction was completed? No way.

Israel plays us (the West) for a fool. Always has. When it looked like the British wouldn’t pull out of palestine in 1946, Irgun bombed their hotel, killing 91 people. Because we are not the same. Israel is not on our team. Israel is on Israel’s team (is this starting to make sense?)

Sure, they can accidentally slaughter Palestinian civilians, because the Palestinians don’t have a state, and their staunchest allies are either terrorists or backward Arab dictatorships. But I know plenty of Lebanese-Americans. I went to school with them. And being an man of Mediterranean extraction, I can see them and see myself.

I have as much in common with the Lebanese as I do with the Israelis. And it’s their homes that are being destroyed, their lives that are being lost. There have been 900 Lebanese casualties so far. And 8 dead Israeli soldiers is represents “the Darkest Day”?
And this is all because Hezbollah captured some Israeli soldiers and Israel doesn’t want to look weak?

Israel has a right to defend itself, sure. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t suck. And that doesn’t mean that Lebanese civilians are some expendable number just because Israel is so important to Israelis. And that doesn’t mean that I, as an American, must “root for the hometeam.” Because there is no hometeam. Israel is not the US, the US is not Israel. Israel is an independent country and that whole situation over there on the eastern bank of the Mediterranean is 100 percent *fucked up*.

“Okay the nazi comparison may be too rough but the fact remains that jews I’m not saying that all the jews believe this but the ones I met in Israel do believe that they are the people of god and therefor better than us ordinary humans.”

Surely you are talking about Hezbollah nutcases here (party of God and all)?

#224
Well, I rejoiced for the kidnap in Gaza and Lebanon

You did not ask me why did I rejoiced the kidnap. Instead you assumed that I’m from the “other” kind of creatures who enjoys killing, bloodshed and kidnapping…
This is the stereotype about the “other” in your mind.

Back to my point; I rejoiced because there are 11,000 kidnapee in Israeli “concentration camps”.
- Those kidnapees in Israeli jails are from 7 Arab nationalities
- More than 800 of them are under the age of 18
- More than 1000 women
- Four government ministers
- 20 elected PM
- and many of them have been in the captive for more than 20 years

What would be the solution for their problem other than kidnapping soldiers for negotiation.

Kimmo,
“Where are you hiding out anyway Omar?”
“What exactly would you do with that information?”
– Well is Omar in some oppressed Middle Eastern country, or is he somewhere in Europe?
– you see, a good portion of muslims in Europe blame europe for the problems in the middle east as much as they blame the US. This includes refugees who have flew oppressive regime. It is europes fault that their governments suck. (Reasd the FIIA report “International Terrorism and Finland”)

Omar,

“I am really stunned by your logic So, instead of dialoging with the other party you simply like to “blow them to a million pieces””

- Get real Omar, what kind of dialog do you expect Hezbollah to have with Israel? Anyway, Hezbollah is not a legitimate organization. Dialog should be at the state level. The dialog in 2004 resulted in an order for Hezbollah to disarm. What good is new dialog when the old dialog was pointless?

This kind of argument that legitimise the immediate use of power to exterminate the “other” without giving a chance for dialog, is the sole of terrorism.
- Again, this has been going on since the ’80s. Why don’t you explain how this should have been handled? Lets remember that the last time Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers, they promptly executed them and had dialog over the return of the bodies.

“Fred Fry, You are imitating their thoughts, no doubt”
- Better to understand and defeat them.

“If a group of Finns stand in Helsinki center and start chanting “death to Russia”, will that give Russia the right to immediately blow them into million pieces?”
– There is a difference. You don’t see Finns bombing Russia or attacking civilian targets inside Russia shouting “Karelia!”.

You don’t see Finns bombing Russia or attacking civilian targets inside Russia shouting “Karelia!”.

They stole your land and then you paid THEM reparations. But at least you got Kekkeonen instead of Stalin et al

238

Omar,
Israel is at peace and has normal relations with Egypt and Jordan. There are no massed armies at those borders nor are there border clashes, proving that the states can live in peace. (There have been some attacks within Egypt aimed at foreigners, but that is a different issue.)

Omar, how many of those in your list above were captured for violence against Israel. Many of those imprisoned have blood on their hands. Others in your list, like the PMs were jailed after the kidnapping of the first soldier.

#237
They are all nutcases, fundamentalists who have lost touch with reality.

@240,
they stole c. 10% of our land. We could recover from that. 100%, now that’s a bit harder.

Fred, are you sure this Abu Omar guy is an Arab? If I chose Jesus Christ as my nick that wouldn’t make a Galilean out of me. After all, there have been suggestions that Abu Omar is a Finn who engages in flaming to provoke hefty reactions and doesn’t really stand for the opinions he represents. OK, maybe he isn’t flaming and I surely wouldn’t have a clue on who he is. But there were all these flaming accusations in the past.

Abu Omar usually posts in the manner of the devil’s advocate with very clever counterarguments. Whether he is sincere or not, the arguments sure deserve to be taken at face value and pondered.

Abu, you know the Arabs in Israeli prisons would get out pretty quickly if their organizations really made peace with Israel. Israel has released ridiculous amounts of prisoners to get one guy released. Part of the problem why these kidnappings occurred is that since Israel had done so in the past, the terrorists thought they might do so in the future. Then the Israelis blamed the terrorists for thinking so. It’s just that Olmert has changed the Israeli policy on what to do when faced with kidnappings.

Helsinkian,

I have no clue about Abu but I will agree that there is no shortage of smart people out there who take the side against Israel and are very good about debating facts and make very relevent points.

The problem is that they are directing all this energy at the wrong party.

Why is everyone so determined to negotiate and discuss with Israel and the US? How about discussing the issue with Iran, Syria, and the groups that they back? That is how this ongoing war will be resolved. The problem is that this is out of control of the US and Israel.

How about pressuring Iran and Syria and Hezbollah to stop. There is no pressure there and until there is, this will never end.

All we get now is “Yes the kidnapping was bad, but the response was worse!” That bull. It is not helpful, it is deceptive and not accurrate.

If the UN and EU want to be relevant, they can obtain the release of the three soldiers. I fear that the two Hezbollah has are dead, executed shortly after their capture, which is one reason why there is no willingness to release them.

“Where are you hiding out anyway Omar?”
I’m a Palestinian living in Finland and working in the IT since 2000.
Go celebrate!

a good portion of muslims in Europe blame europe for the problems

I’m not blaming countries like Finland, Sweden or Norway for our problems in ME. However, I do blame and discredit the colonial and imperial mindset of the West.

what kind of dialog do you expect Hezbollah to have with Israel?
=> My remark was about those “who chant for death of Israel” whose you want to “blow to a million pieces“, and it was not about Hezbuallah!

Hezbuallah supporters do support it because it aims at freeing the captives from the Israeli jails and at ending the Israeli occupation of the Sheba’ farms.

Instead of “blowing them”, just free their captives and return their occupied lands.

“How about pressuring Iran and Syria and Hezbollah to stop. There is no pressure there…”

No pressure on Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah? The reality filter in your head must be in overdrive!

“If the UN and EU want to be relevant…”

The “relevance” of major international organisations does not hinge on the extent to which they do the bidding of the US administration and Israel.

You did not ask me why did I rejoiced the kidnap. Instead you assumed that I’m from the “other” kind of creatures who enjoys killing, bloodshed and kidnapping…
This is the stereotype about the “other” in your mind.

It was Edward Said who took Freud’s concept of the “Other” and politicized it for post-colonialist consumption. But he quite easily dropped the most important aspect of the “Other”, which is that it is always an object of desire. Ironically, that original meaning has crept back to the term, as nowadays Arabs tend to embrace the label of “Other” in a narcissist attempt at self-love… and self-pity.

giustino: Israel is not really a young punk with an axe to grind. If you know the demographics, there are plenty more young punks in the Palestinian side and they are behaving like young punks. But that’s not the main issue. It’s a political problem, the continuation of the conflict has benefited too many people who can use it as a distraction from their own problems.

What I really mean is that this Israeli government is not really behaving like a young punk. They are simply changing the way politics is being done in the region. Bush and Blair function as models for the Israeli action and they are no young punks, they are the democratically elected leaders of two of the key Western powers.

There are some reasons for why this happened now:

1) Syrian troops are no longer in Lebanon to protect Hezbollah. That’s good for Syria, being there to protect Hezbollah would really not improve their situation too much. Hezbollah has been doing these rocket attacks for years but now they are in a weaker position and they are suffering from that.

2) Ariel Sharon is no longer the Israeli PM. As PM his main policy was to withdraw Israeli troops, not to go on the offensive. One of the reasons is his own personal experience, when he conducted the previous offensive to Lebanon, Sabra and Shatila happened on his watch. He probably would not have wanted to screw up twice.

3) Ehud Olmert knows that his poll numbers will go way down if he doesn’t respond militarily to provocations. Now they are going way up. He could be politically dead in no time if he would be perceived as being soft on terrorism.

4) Israel used to switch prisoners in so that they get one Israeli for releasing plenty of their enemies. Now they’ve decided that they won’t accept extortion any more.

5) Since Israel is in a stronger position when it comes to Hezbollah now, there is some real chance that they might deal a blow to Hezbollah. Even if I’m one of them who doesn’t believe the Israelis are in a strong enough position, their generals aren’t stupid and there is some real calculation behind this offensive. So they are doing military calculations there and that is one of the reasons why they strike now.

6) If Israel wants a diplomatic solution for the conflict, which I would be very surprised to find out they didn’t right now, this offensive can be seen as a way to bomb your enemies to the negotiating table. There is this idea that a workable diplomatic solution will never happen unless the more extreme elements realize that terrorism will lead to forceful countermeasures. This is not necessarily the way young punks would see it, many more and less sensible experienced statesmen have thought so in many different situations.

If you still think Israelis act like young punks, may so be, but many leaders have acted that way many times before.

#245 -Helsinkian-

Abu, you know the Arabs in Israeli prisons would get out pretty quickly if their organizations really made peace with Israel.

There are 73 Jordanian captives in Israeli jails despite the peace agreement between Jordan and Israel!
There has been many demand to free them, but no one listens

Furthermore, half of the captives belong to PLO who signed Oslo peace agreement with Israel, and again no captives were releases since then

#244 @ Helsinkian

After all, there have been suggestions that Abu Omar is a Finn who engages in flaming to provoke hefty reactions

There has been two demonstrations against Israel in Helsinki on Mondays 17 & 24.7.
There will be another one next Monday starting from Kiasma at 17:30.
Come and say hi, to see my dark hair and black eyes!

#249

What do you think about yourself my little orientalist!

Look how you speak about the “others”;
you wrote @ #108:

———————–
I think it’s hard for us westerners to comprehend that, but it points to the predominance of clan-thinking in Arabic cultures: as long as the kids are not from my family (suku), then I don’t see the problem.

It is this kind of thinking that, also, devalues Muslim lives. In fact, we could say that Muslim lives are not as important, simply because Muslims are so willing to part with life. A true multiculturalist would have to respect that, odious as that may be.
———————–

And it goes to the post-modernism barbarism

#249

What do you think about yourself my little orientalist!

Look how you speak about the “others”;
you wrote @ #108:

———————–

I think it’s hard for us westerners to comprehend that, but it points to the predominance of clan-thinking in Arabic cultures: as long as the kids are not from my family (suku), then I don’t see the problem.

It is this kind of thinking that, also, devalues Muslim lives. In fact, we could say that Muslim lives are not as important, simply because Muslims are so willing to part with life. A true multiculturalist would have to respect that, odious as that may be.

———————–

You and those who share this attitude with you, simply objectify the “other”.
Exactly how Americans did exterminate the original red indians “objects” in one continent, and enslaved other “objects” from another continent.
Later on, they nuekd some other “objects” in Japan.

And it goes to the post-modernism barbarism

giustino: Israel is not really a young punk with an axe to grind. If you know the demographics, there are plenty more young punks in the Palestinian side and they are behaving like young punks. But that’s not the main issue.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. There seems to be something out in the ether that the US controls Israel by proxy – that we are essentially one country. My point was that just because Israel takes our money and weapons, doesn’t mean it acts on our behalf or that we can tell Israel what to do.

If you were Israel, wouldn’t you take money and weapons from whatever great power you could get it from? Wouldn’t you, like Castro dealing with the Soviets, squeeze as much from your benefactor as you could? And if that Western benefactor stood in your way – like the British in 1946 – wouldn’t you also resort to violence like Menachem Begin did, bombing the Brits?

The point was that Israel acts in its own interest, not ours. It was posted here several times that the US is somehow one of the main culprits here, that we are some grand puppeteer pulling all the strings. Christ, we can’t even get Osama bin Ladin, you think we could orchestrate this mess? People really think us more capable than we are.

I am posting from an American perspective. The concept being reinforced by the very pro-Israel media in the US is that Israel is a great ally, they can do no wrong, they are us, the deaths of their soldiers are equal to the deaths of our soldiers. I mean the New York Post proclaimed their deaths as “the darkest day” in today’s edition. But we lose as many guys a week in Iraq and they barely print a word. I reject that attitude, because I see this as a regional conflict that harms *everyone*.

There’s some serious propaganda going on here in the US concerning this. I have Lebanese and Palestinian friends, and I am not going to sit around on my hands and pretend that I don’t care that Israel bombs the shit out of their territories/countries and kills their relatives.

I’m a human being – I have a greater sense of decency than to look the other way when relatives of friends are in danger. 900 Lebanese casualties deeply bothers me. I am unwilling to just pretend that ho-hum, if those Lebanese grandmas had forced Hezbollah to flee the southern portion of their country they’d be alive today. I am unwilling to pretend that it’s everybody’s fault, BUT Israel’s, because that’s not true.

Other than the right-wing Israeli politicians who, as you said, benefit politically from showing strength, and the Hezbollah terrorists who benefit everytime an Israeli missile kills Palestinian civilians – peace is in the interest of most people in the region, from the young mothers of Haifa who want to go to work without the threat of being bombed, to the young mothers of Tyre, who also want to go to work without being bombed.

As I said before, this a regional conflict that involves all players. It involves the lives of everyone in that small, concentrated area of the world. It is in all of our interest that it is brought to an end and brought to an end the right way.

254. Ah, but you forget that Muslims value death more than life: you can find those quotes directly from the mouths of Muslim leaders, whether religious, political, or terrorist.

And that seems to be backed up by evidence. Given the penchant Muslims have for killing other Muslims, it seems life does not hold the same kind of value it has for non-Muslims. And this has religious and cultural roots, as the concept of the existence of Allah and an afterlife is very real for devout Muslims.

Now, true multiculturalists should respect that. We should not try to argue that Muslims are wrong to devalue life, as that would be imposing our values on Muslims.

If you think that sounds harsh, then ask yourself why nobody in Europe gave a hoot when, say, Algerians were killing each other a mere ten years ago, with over 100,000 casualties – as just one example amongst many. And then consider the alacrity of Muslims to throw away their lives in suicide; in fact, suicide is valued, and even celebrated.

In the long run, the value of people’s lives are variable, whether we like it or not. There’s certainly different economic values between different human lives. But the most important aspect is how a culture defines the value of an individual life. That is the barometer that’s all important, and that’s where the value of a Muslim life, – amongst all the different cultures in the world – scores lowest.

“Muslims value death more than life…”

Oh, come on Finnpundit: you get fanatical romanticizing of glorious death among fundamentalist blasphemers of all religions. Stalinist atheists are pretty good at it too.

#255
My point was that just because Israel takes our money and weapons, doesn’t mean it acts on our behalf or that we can tell Israel what to do.

Israel does not take only money.
America has used the Veto power more than 35 times for Israel favor:
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

This indicates that Israel is one way of another acts on behalf of US.

“There has been two demonstrations against Israel in Helsinki on Mondays 17 & 24.7.
There will be another one next Monday starting from Kiasma at 17:30.
Come and say hi, to see my dark hair and black eyes!”

How many demonstrations have there been against the kidnapping?

Why is the demonstration only against Israel? This is not a one-sided war?

“America has used the Veto power more than 35 times for Israel favor:”

Well cry me a river of tears. The USA standing up for the little guy.

“Exactly how Americans did exterminate the original red indians ”

Cry again and again for somthing that happened long ago.

“There are 73 Jordanian captives in Israeli jails ”

Cry Cry Cry. Come on give me your tears.

Heh…I bet there will be also some demonstration by the pro-Israel crowd with carefully selected Bible quotes.

#258
“My point was that just because Israel takes our money and weapons, doesn’t mean it acts on our behalf or that we can tell Israel what to do.

Israel does not take only money.
America has used the Veto power more than 35 times for Israel favor:
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

This indicates that Israel is one way of another acts on behalf of US.”

This indicates that what Israel is doing generally is perceived in the U.S. to benefit the U.S. Israel certainly isn’t a proxy. They will abandon the Americans without a blink if need be.

“Annan’s Claims On Casualties May Unravel”

A Canadian U.N. observer, one of four killed at a UNIFIL position near the southern Lebanese town of Khiyam on Tuesday, sent an e-mail to his former commander, a Canadian retired major-general, Lewis MacKenzie, in which he wrote that Hezbollah fighters were “all over” the U.N. position, Mr. MacKenzie said. Hezbollah troops, not the United Nations, were Israel’s target, the deceased observer wrote.

http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=36860

Looks like Tarja Halonen could owe the Israelis an apology.

Finnpundit, I guessed as much from the get go..

Too bad Niinistö did not win..

This indicates that Israel is one way of another acts on behalf of US.

On the contrary, Abu Omar, it means that the US acts on behalf, or in the interest of Israel. It *doesn’t* mean that Israel acts on behalf of the US. In fact, I bet Israel gives the architects of American foreign policy many headaches.

Winter: Have you noticed that your attitude is pretty much the same as German SS troopers back in 1939? War is your only solution to problems and you sneer at international diplomacy or peace keeping. UN is a curse word for you. You probably are member of NRA and you think, war is somekind of ultimate test of manhood, am I right?

Muslims for you are just a bunch of ragheads, not exactly even human. So tell me, what exactly in your attitude is different from the Nazis except the target of your hate is the muslims? The same goes with this Finnpundit.

“I’m going to ask a stupid question here – What are Israel’s motives behind bombing a UN post on purpose?”

Raise the threshold for UN members to put a multinational force in place (not that those would do any good, really…). Israel has never been comfortable with a UN presence in Lebanon or anywhere near where they operate. Period. There’s a long temr goal to consider…

In the end, if I were forced to put money on it, I’d wager on water more than any grand mal US conspiracy. Is Israel heading towards a river in Lebanon?

I think the current obsession with the X-Fileish villification of the US and the fact that this necessitates an partially unhealthy fixation on oil, might give short rift to water in a part of the world that is, after all, very dependent on very little of it…

Just a thought.

War is your only solution to problems?

No. But waiving the French Flag of surrender does not go very far in this world. As soon as you are perceived as week (Think Israel, and the Hezbollah just thinking they were weak, so why not attack and get 2 solders).

international diplomacy or peace keeping???

Great one. Think how well its doing in Darfur? You tell me the answer. The UN asked the USA to go in and we turned you down. But then another million killed is no skin of the EU mindset. After all, the EU watched 7,000 frog march of to a Machinegun in Yugoslavia.

Muslims for you are just a bunch of ragheads???

Actually I spent 3 years in the Middle East and went to College with Muslims. I respect them and their culture, but not the ones who think we are weak. If Mexicans were bringing down the World Trade Center, they would get the boot.

“No. But waiving the French Flag of surrender does not go very far in this world. As soon as you are perceived as week (Think Israel, and the Hezbollah just thinking they were weak, so why not attack and get 2 solders).”

So since when EU has waved french flag of surrender? Yes, we were weak after a long cold war IN THE FRONT LINE after disassembling our huge militaries but now we are developing those rapid deployment forces and things are looking better in that area.

You also have to remember THAT BOTH West Germany and France did have mandatory military service along with basically all European nations during cold war up to 90′s, they were not exactly sitting there like ducks. Yes, you have Vietnam BUT NEVER SINCE your civil war you did have all out mandatory military service.

“in 1956, conscription for all men between 18 and 45 in years was introduced, later on augmented by a civil alternative with longer duration. In parallel East Germany formed its military force, the Nationale Volksarmee which was dissolved with the reunifcation of Germany in 1990.

During the Cold War the Bundeswehr was the backbone of NATO’s conventional defence in Central Europe. It had a strength of 495,000 military and 170,000 civilian personnel.”.

Yes, Somalia and Darfur were/are failures but how is your Iraq adventure going, about 6000 deads last month alone because of CIVIL WAR. The whole Middle East is about the explode because of your fucking idiot president and that neocon administration. Yeah, so us more your “strengh”.

# 256, Finn(what’s his name),

“Given the penchant Muslims have for killing other Muslims,..”. There is something to be said about the penchant Christians have for killing other Christians. In football terms, our lads wearing cross adorned jerseys are leading the match 4-1.

# Finnpundit works for US government and his task is to provocate anti-American views. CIA plane is waiting for you guys…

#256 -Finnpundit-

Can’t you get out from the orientalism garment!
For the sake of God, how did you reached to your amazing theory about Muslims!

—————
Ah, but you forget that Muslims value death more than life: you can find those quotes directly from the mouths of Muslim leaders, whether religious, political, or terrorist. …….

—————

Well, I will dress the Finland-alism garment, and will present my theory as a super-scholar to the crowd. Listen carefully:

—————-
“Finns value dogs more than their kids. Many of them do prefer to have dogs, and they spend quite a lot of money for their dog’s leisure.
Dogs are at the corner stone of the Finnish culture, … pla pla pla”
—————-

=> What do you think about my theory.
It sucks of course, as much as your “Muslims & Death” theory sucks!

dear Finnpundit;
Get down to the earth, and speak about the “Other” as a human being, and not as a “death loving organisms”.

Abu Omar:
Finns value dogs more than their kids. Many of them do prefer to have dogs, and they spend quite a lot of money for their dog’s leisure.
Dogs are at the corner stone of the Finnish culture, … pla pla pla”

Finnpundit would probably agree with that. For him, Finns and ragheads are in the same league; the only good one is a dead one, as you can see from e.g. post #70.

@Abu Omar,
Finnpundit is an American (although apparently of Finnish origin) and hates Finland as can be seen from his crowing over the dead Finnish UN observer. If you want to get to him, badmouthing Finns and Finland is not the way. (You could try pointing out the pathetic performance of the much vaunted Israeli military and the stupidity of the US opening up new fronts in the middle of an unfinished war that is going badly.) Finnpundit is also a troll. Feeding trolls is always a mistake.

@winter, post 268,
the comparison to EU inactivity during the Srebrenica massacre is fair. But the difference between Olmert and Milosevic is that Olmert has nuclear weapons. So trying to stop him from slaughtering the Lebanese would be very, very risky.

giustino #255:

Whew! If I were Israel, sure, I’d take weapons from the United States. That they do so can’t be a surprise to anyone.

That it’s not in the US interests to sell weapons to Israel… well, I actually think it’s smarter for the Bush Administration to equip Israel today than it was for the Reagan Administration to sell weapons to Iran and to simultaneously support Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war. The Reagan Administration acted then purely on behalf of US interests and didn’t give a damn about Middle Eastern interests. I’m actually thankful that the Bush Administration is thinking about the Middle East as a place with a future and not as a place where you dump weapons to, as long as anyone is willing to buy them.

If I had been Begin in 46, hell no, I wouldn’t have bombed the British. Somewhat tragicomically many Americans actually could relate to him since their forefathers too attacked the British to get their independence once upon a time.

Begin in 46 was not Israel. Other people did the biggest job in the founding of the state of Israel. People who saw to it that right-wing militias and terrorists were disarmed and everyone submitted to the central authority of the state. Begin was a problem that Israel had to solve to be able to be taken seriously as an actor on the international stage. Strangely enough, decades later, it would be Begin who’d sign the accords at Camp David and get the Nobel peace prize and pull the troops out of Sinai. That’s the kind of Begin I appreciate, the elder statesman, not the hothead from 46.

The biggest difference between Begin in the late forties and Hassan Nasrallah today is that Begin once he had attained his goals did not challenge the state monopoly of violence. That is the very key thing, the defining moment of history that made Israel a legitimate state, not a terrorist state. Now Hassan Nasrallah did not behave that way even if he attained all his goals (Israelis out of Lebanon just like Begin’s goal was the British out of Palestine). He didn’t behave like someone who is on the way to becoming a former terrorist and a future statesman. He behaved exactly like the terrorist punk he is and came up with sorry excuses like the Shebaa Farms to continue his terrorist activity while refusing to submit the authority over his weapons to the Lebanese state even when his party joined the government. That is plainly ridiculous. He did that because he counted on Syrian support (Begin in the late forties didn’t have such a benefactor to count on). Partly Syria is to blame for this mess but mostly the blame lay squarely on Hassan Nasrallah’s table. He’s the problem, he’s the terrorist punk who is addicted to violence and the State of Israel is in the right to act against him. Even though I repeat they are in the right, I never thought they should do it unless they have a realistic goal of disarming Hezbollah in sight or unless they think this offensive is the only way to force a diplomatic solution to the conflict.

If I’d been Begin at Camp David, sure, I’d have done what he did then but Begin in 46 was in the wrong. 1946 was a long time ago and a lot of blood has been spilled in the Middle East since then. Every party have done wrong at some point. But Israel’s very strength is in that it is a democracy and the state has the control over the violence, the Israeli state is not in the business of promoting terrorist groups and they chose to do so from the very beginning, when the choice was for them just as difficult as it is for the Lebanese and for the Palestinians today.

Heh, incidentally a couple days ago, some writer at the letters to the editor section of Kaleva proposed the same as Abu Omar’s super-scholar theory. The response was pretty much angry dog owners telling people, especially those with no dogs, to mind their own business…

To be honest, thinking the finnish history at the beginning of the 20th century happening today. I guess the world would be appalled about those terrible finns killing civilized and righteous general governor Bobrikoff and setting up the jäger movement. And what kind of intervention would the 1918 fratricide require.

I guess the walking in the other guy’s shoes is impossible. The little guy can walk in big shoes somehow, but not the other way around.

@276,
it only just occurred to me (I’m so slow), that IIRC Finland did harbour anti-Soviet terrorists in the 20′s and the 30′s. I remember some article by Jukka Rislakki on a case in which Armenian terrorists on their way to bomb targets in Baku were helped across the border by Finnish intelligence. But we still think Winter War was wrong.

#277

What kind of armenian terrirists? Why Baku? at that time both countries have been a part of Soviet Union and thousands of armenians were living in Baku at that time. What was the reason to send terrirists from outside? What kind of targets?

Show me the link to your bullshit! The only time armenians killed someone, was Turkish official who was one of the organizers of Armenian Genocide in Turkey(1.5 million killed).

giustino: It’s not really true that right wing politicians benefit from showing strength. The Israeli government is center-left, and that’s why it benefits politically from showing strength. The military credibility of right-wing governments is usually not questioned and they don’t become politically dead even if they don’t use force in a tight spot.

For center-left governments waging war is a way of getting the nation behind you. For center-right governments making peace is a way for the same goal. If it would be Likud in charge today, they’d get criticized for recklessness. If Labor had signed the Camp David accords, they would’ve been criticized very harshly for doing that.

Harry Truman was a left-winger and he nuked the Japanese. All right-wingers will love him for that even in 2145. Had he been a right-winger, the left-wingers in 2145 would demonize him. Now they probably won’t since they remember he was one of them.

Left-wingers that use force and right-wingers that make peace will be loved by the entire nation, usually not so much the other way around (assuming that left-wingers tend to be doves and right-wingers tend to be hawks in the country we’re talking about).

Truman was a war-criminal and a hideous murderer

@278,
sorry, anonymous if I annoyed you, but from a Soviet POV Armenian nationalists would have been reactionary bandits (the preferred Soviet term of abuse for irregular forces fighting against them, equivalent of terrorist). I did not mean to imply that Armenians in general are terrorists in any objective sense. What I meant is, we harboured anti-Soviet groups but we’d still not see this as justifying an invasion of Finland. (Of course, the Soviet Union harboured Finnish Communists, so we were even.)
The group in question would have been nationalist exiles, not Armenians residing in the Soviet Union. IIRC their intended target was oil pipelines and infrastructure. Whether they made it to Baku or tried to carry out their mission is another question, the anwer to which might be found in NKVD files, but not here in Finland. Jukka Rislakki wrote about these nationalist exile groups who ran people into the USSR through Finland in Helsingin Sanomat a long time ago, basing his article on some Finnish intel documents that had become public (that stuff is usually secret for 60 years or so). There is no link to the article (not everything is on the Web). I’m not about to go annoy the University of Helsinki Library by asking to see all copies of all the sunday HS’s of the early 90′s.

“Finns value dogs more than their kids.”

Finns don’t strap explosives to their dogs,

… or their children.

.

jormanen wrote (in post 270):
“Finnpundit works for US government and his task is to provocate anti-American views. CIA plane is waiting for you guys…”

Dear oh dear. Afraid of the american Stasi, are we? We have a thing called free speech and nobody has a right to detain finnish citizens for “thought crimes”. Even though I do understand that the USA is swiftly being transformed into a police state where only one kind of opinions are allowed and that the americans are trying to forcefeed their “fair and balanced” views on the rest of the world as well.

You know, they tried to intimidate and control people in the same fashion in the late DDR and in other fascist countries. Inevitably the oppressors were crushed though, the people were freed and their torturers where duly shamed.

V for Vendetta.

Would more US aid to Lebanon have made a difference? After all, the US is known to pour tons of money to Egypt and Israel.

Let me quote Dem Senator Joe Biden (from an op-ed article in today’s Boston Globe):

“Iran has outspent us five-to-one in Lebanon, enabling Hezbollah to out-compete the Lebanese government in building social services and military might.”

After all, Truman’s policy all those decades ago was to outspend the Communists in the countries whose hearts and minds America wanted to win.

Another question is: is it clear that the US is always the one who is supposed to do the spending in these matters? Could the EU or the Arab world or anyone else who dislikes Hezbollah’s ascendancy have helped Lebanon out so that disarming Hezbollah would have been a realistic possibility before this latest happened?

#282 -Fred Fry-

Finns don’t strap explosives to their dogs,… or their children.
Neither Finns nore Muslims nor anybody do that!

#259 -Fred Fry-

How many demonstrations have there been against the kidnapping?

I might have a bad English, but I know that:
When they are in their military uniform, soldiers can be “captured” and not “kidnapped“!!
Same goes for soldiers that they can be “killed” in the battle zone, and not “murdered“!!

Abu,

You were so quick to point out the Palestinian PMs in prison by Israel. I am sure you are aware of the female PM who had 2 of her children conduct suicide attacks against Israel. So while they might not actually do the deed themselves they are complicit in their children’s acts.

I am sure your parents are proud of you. Would they be as proud if you had strapped a bomb onto your body and exploded it in a bus in Israel?

Comment by Abu Omar — Fri, Jul 28th, 2006 @ 5:04 pm

#259 -Fred Fry-

How many demonstrations have there been against the kidnapping?

“I might have a bad English, but I know that:
When they are in their military uniform, soldiers can be “captured” and not “kidnapped“!!
Same goes for soldiers that they can be “killed” in the battle zone, and not “murdered“!!”

One military can capture another military’s soldiers. In the current case, EVEN THE KIDNAPPERS ARE CALLING IT A KIDNAPPING!

Soldiers are part of the military of a government. They wear a uniform. They uphold the 3rd Geneva convention. They do not target civilians. They do not stop civilians from fleeing.

Hezbollah members are not soldiers.

I will agree that the area is now a battlefield and when this is over Hezbollah will be a shell of itself with most of its members either killed or captured.

@Fred Fry (288)

“Soldiers are part of the military of a government. They wear a uniform. They uphold the 3rd Geneva convention. They do not target civilians. They do not stop civilians from fleeing.”

The only one in Lebanon preventing civilians from fleeing the combat zone is the Israeli military with the wholesale destruction of the transportation infrastructure, effecting a siege upon Beirut and other centres of population, and an imminent humanitarian catastrophy.

“I will agree that the area is now a battlefield and when this is over Hezbollah will be a shell of itself with most of its members either killed or captured.”

I can’t understand why anybody still believes, after conflicts such as Afghanistan, Chechenya I & II, and Iraq, that a conventional armed force, however superior, is able to destroy a popularly supported ‘guerrilla’ movement. The only means to that end are political, not military. This is a lesson that should’ve been learnt as long ago as the Vietnam conflict: the harder the U.S. bombed, the stronger the Vietcong grew.

Hearts & minds, people.

Each time Abu comes with a new piece of pro-Hezbollah propaganda, I still can’t help wondering if he’s a troll. At least he’s arguing like a lawyer who uses every possible argument in the reserve, also those that are plainly false. But I guess that’s where online debates usually end up.

Hezbollah’s agenda: release of all Hezbollah prisoners and the return of Shebaa Farms. That’s sure worth all this bloodshed given Hezbollah’s track record and given the fact that Shebaa Farms basically is a part of the Golan Heights area and in any case not worth the fight for Lebanon.

Who stands to lose if Hezbollah becomes stronger as a result of this crisis? Most Lebanese, most Arab countries, Europe, US, Israel and many more. Hezbollah is the biggest threat against Lebanon’s development toward a civil society, democracy and human rights.

Much is at stake in this war. If Israel does disarm Hezbollah, a very diverse group of actors in the Middle East will be at least secretly happy about it. I still can’t figure out how they will succeed since there is this big risk that Israel underestimated Hezbollah and its benefactors.

I guess I’m in bit of a gloomy mood, feeling the discussion leads nowhere and more than that, the actual events on the ground bear no promise to a solution to the crisis. Europe, America, Arab countries and other major regional players should wake up and see how huge issues are at stake. Hezbollah have been allowed to provoke this crisis because they have thus far been deemed too insignificant a force to be truly taken seriously.

aet75,

There are reports that Hezbollah has been preventing civilians from fleeing cities in the path of the Israeli military. They are fleeing because the Israelis are dropping fliers warning them to get out. (They were also warned prior to this too.)

No need to belive me, if it is true, then eventually the truth will come out.

Hearts and minds are good, but what do you do with the people that want you dead no matter what. The US was the #1 aid giver to Afghanistan prior to 9/11. That did not good, because we were not living the way they want us to. The extremists need to be treated differently than the rest. Some of them do not understand anything other than violence. Suggestions for a solution are welcome. Telling the Israelis to stop shooting will fix nothing. Someone should have told Hezbollah to stop first. There are two sides to this and most everyone is ignoring one side.

Fred F., I agree that a cease-fire is not a solution to the problem, but absolutely nobody benefits from a shooting war that has no military conclusion in sight (with the exception of military industry, of course). Extremists aside, what about the normal Lebanese people, Muslim and Christian alike, who are being killed in droves in this useless operation?

aet75,

Unfortunately, we have to give this some time. As for the normal Lebanese people, it is a shame, especially considering the recent progress the country was making. However, they had this dragon living amoungst them growing stronger all the while. Lebanon had 6 years to deal with Hezbollah as initially agreed in 2000 and nothing happened. It would have almost been better that Israel never left Southern Leb for now they are retaking land they had already held before.

Looking at the bigger picture, Hezbollah is not pulling those missiles out of thin air. Lebanon did nothing to prevent the importation of these weapons and other states, Syria and Iran, are as guilty for the civilian deaths in both countries as they equipped these people with the tools to go to war.

The normal people let the extremist have too much control, partly because they are afraid that they would become the target.

Once again, for it to work both sides need to be willing to work for peace, and that is missing in this case.

Useless? I;m going to wait a couple months to decide that.

All Israelies and supporters of Israel believe that the Palstinians have a right to live and a right to their own land.

All Palestinians and their muslim supporters not only believe that the Jews do not have a right to ANY of their own land, but they also beleive that they all should be slaughtered.

Therefore, no matter how much land, aide, etc. Israel gives to the Palestinians and their supporters; they will never have peace. Peace cannot be negotiated with those who are filled with searing hate. The only reletive peace they will acheive will be peace through strength and intimidation.

Finnpundit:
“And, if you vote for parties that want war (as Hamas and Hezbollah do) don’t be surprised if you get yourself into a war.”

Well said – this is something the public fails to understand. Civilians are far from being innocent if they’re the ones supporting, shielding and voting for terrorists. They’re well responsible for the ongoing situation although they should not be deliberately punished by death and that’s something Israel has, fortunately, not been doing.

As for the Finnish peacekeeper – the death of an innocent is always an unfortunate event but in this case one should ask what were they doing there in the first place.

http://m-sandt.blogspot.com/2006/07/democracy-and-responsibility.html

Fred Fry @288:

In the current case, EVEN THE KIDNAPPERS ARE CALLING IT A KIDNAPPING!

Really! You seem to be very sure …
Do you understand Arabic to be that much sure about the used word?
Both Hamas and Hezbuallah are calling it “capturing” and not “kidnapping”. Using the word “kidnapping” instead of “capturing” is a western media trick to bring sympathy with Israelis.
Same applies when they say “targeted killing” instead of “assassination” when Israelis assassinate any Palestinian political figures.

Hezbollah members are not soldiers.
What would you call them then?
“Enemy Fighters” might be a good name to use, especially that it will qualify them to be the new Guantanamo inmates!

Hey, please wake up!

Abu Omar:
“What would you call them then?”

Barbarians, cavemen, religious nutties…

Soldiers don’t 1)use civilians as shields 2)target innocent civilians 3)follow religious leaders.

Helsinkian @290

That’s sure worth all this bloodshed given Hezbollah’s track record and given the fact that Shebaa Farms basically is a part of the Golan Heights area and in any case not worth the fight for Lebanon.

Sorry Hesinkian, but “Fhebaa Farms” is a Lebanese occupied area.
As for the “Golan Heights”, it is a Syrian occupied territories.

Fred Fry @291

The US was the #1 aid giver to Afghanistan prior to 9/11. That did not good, because we were not living the way they want us to.

You base your argument on a false claim.
US was “the #1 enemy of Afghanistan” -and not “the #1 aid giver”- well before 9/11:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/20/us.strikes.01/

Mikko Sandt @298

Soldiers don’t 1)use civilians as shields 2)target innocent civilians 3)follow religious leaders.

Israelis are those who
1)use civilians as shields
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5212870.stm

2)target innocent civilians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5193662.stm

Well, I guess they ask who do you voted for, before dropping a bomb on your neck.

maksalaatikko @259:

All Israelies and supporters of Israel believe that the Palstinians have a right to live and a right to their own land.

Yes, and that’s why US has used the veto power to block more than 41 SC resolution against Israel:
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

This is a sample of a some resolutions that tells the story:

1972: Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.

1973: Afirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

1976: Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.

1978: Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.

1978: Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.

1980: Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories.

1981: Condemns Israel for bombing Iraqi nuclear installations.

1981: Concerning Israeli human rights violations in occupied territories.

1981: Condemns Israel closing of universities in occupied territories.

1982: Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

1982: Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.

1984: Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.

1984: Condemns assassination attempts against Palestinian mayors.

1985: Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.

1985: Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.

etc etc etc

Notice that all of these resolutions never passed, so it doesn’t make any sense to cite them as proof of anything, other than the fact that the US, – as the “Other” – has a different interpretation of facts from the rest of the world.

Finnpundit @304

It proofs that the whole world agree that Israel is terrorist state.

see my next entry.

Below is a quick summary of the SC resolutions against Israel. Please pay attention to the bolded text.

In Palestine:

1973 : Afirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.
1976 : Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories.
1976: Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.
1976: Afirms the rights of the Palestinians.
1978: Criticises the living conditions of the Palestinians.
1978: Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.
1979: Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.
1979: Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.
1979: Requests a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries.
1980: Requests Israel to return displaced persons.
1980: Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.
1980: Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories.
1981: Demands that Israel cease excavations in areas of East Jerusalem considered by the United Nations to be part of the occupied territories.
1981: Condemns Israeli policy regarding living conditions of the Palestinian people.
1981: To establish rights for the Palestinian people.
1981: Concering the rights of displaced Palestinians to return to their homes.
1981: Concerning revenues from Palestinian refugees’ properties.
1981: Concerning Israeli human rights violations in occupied territories.
1981: Condemns Israel closing of universities in occupied territories.
1982: Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.
1984: Concerning Israeli human rights violations in occupied territories.
1984: Condemns assassination attempts against Palestinian mayors.
1985: Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.
1987: Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.
1987: Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians.
1997: Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.
2001: Condemns Israel for acts of terror against civilians in the occupied territories.
2003: Condemns the building of a wall by Israel on Palestinian land.
2004: Condemns the Israeli incursion and killings in Gaza.
2006: Calls for an end to Israeli military incursions and attacks on Gaza.

In Lebanon

1972: Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.
1976: Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1982:´Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
1984: Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985: Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1986: Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians.
1987: Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon.
1987: Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

In Syria:

1982: Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967.
1981: Affirms the non-applicability of Israeli law over the Golan Heights.

In Iraq:

1981: Condemns Israel for bombing Iraqi nuclear installations.
1984: Condemns Israeli attack against Iraqi nuclear installation.

Abu Omar:
“Israelis are those who
1)use civilians as shields”

An exception to the rule. The practice has been outlawed and the ones using civilians as shields should be prosecuted.

“2)target innocent civilians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5193662.stm “

Which part of the text indicates that the IDF targets innocent civilians?

Again, those failed resolutions prove that all those arguments were faulty. The fact that they did not pass Security Council approval means that they were not established as fact by the Security Council.

Any crazy idea can be presented in a legislative assembly. The fact that it does not pass proves something about the soundness of the idea. Its value as an idea hasn’t been established at all.

No, if you want to try to prove some kind of point, try some other tactic, Abu Omar. This kind of thinking might work in a Palestinian refugee camp, but you’re in the western world now, so you need to be more convincing in your arguments.

Apparently the SC felt it should make a resolution condeming the slaughter of innocents in a war zone.

1982: Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.

Never mind the victims of suicide bombers. Apparently those Israeli children must have been combatants in the eyes of the SC because their deaths were not worth attempting to pass a resolution of comdemnation.

Hmmm. Some Muslim-American scumbag decides to shoot at some Jewish women in the blue-state of Seattle:

http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/mideast_war_liii.php

And Finnish Kommie Klutz Kidz think there is no debate in America.

Strategy Page is a useful website that applies a military analysis to current events. Here’s an interesting bit:

“The unarmed observers, with a clear view of the fighting between Hizbollah and the Israelis, were apparently reporting whatever they saw, with other UNIFIL locations, over unencrypted (“in the clear”) radio frequencies. This chatter could be picked up by Hizbollah. Since the Israelis have control of the air, and use aircraft and UAVs to gain an information advantage over Hizbollah, this UNIFIL chatter was giving the Hizbollah fighters information they would not otherwise have. That was endangering Israeli soldiers.”

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htintel/articles/20060728.aspx

It just seems like the UN just can’t help but play the role of the eternal patsy. And Finland is proud to participate in these kinds of forces?

Finnpundit @308

The fact that they did not pass Security Council approval means that they were not established as fact by the Security Council.

Are you serious?
All of the above listed SC resolutions were blocked by US ONLY.
See the link below for details:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Any crazy idea can be presented in a legislative assembly.

If that is true, can you explain why no one else used the veto against those “crazy idea”?
You need to review the SC Resolution Procedure to understand how it goes there.

There seems to be an agreement among some of the participants of this thread that the Lebanese are just getting what they are asked for. WTF? It would have been OK for the Brits to kill everybody in Ireland on account of IRA and its political wing? The civilians are shielding the terrorists with their bodies? Literally? Get fucking real. Children are not collaborators (but they surely will be if this madness is kept up). How about the 40 percent of Lebanese that are Christian? I can’t see them as ardent Hezbollah supporters. And besides, if voting behaviour qualified anyone for slaughter, the Americans would be the first ones to go.

Children are not collaborators.

Huh

Just ask the Rangers who were under fire in Somalia. Children would stand in the street, knowing our rules of engagement did not allow them to be shot.

But then again, the Rangers modified the rules on the spot, and blood went flying.

aet75 has his head stuck under a rock again.

General Assembly resolutions passed against Israel reflect its international bias, not factual reality. There is not one Chapter Seven resolution present in the bunch, pure political machinations sponsored by the Arab block and Soviets during and after the Cold War period.

“Do you understand Arabic to be that much sure about the used word?”
– Sorry, I only understand arabic numbers.
– No matter, they do have spokesmen that issue statements in English. They know who their audience is. In arabic they say other things.

“Both Hamas and Hezbuallah are calling it “capturing” and not “kidnapping”. Using the word “kidnapping” instead of “capturing” is a western media trick to bring sympathy with Israelis.”
– Even with your other explanation above, you have the problem that Hezbollah ‘captures’ Israeli soldiers and then MURDERS them. You also forgot that in addition to ‘capturing’ soldiers, they kidnap Israelis, like the businessman they traded for 1,000+ prisoners.

Same applies when they say “targeted killing” instead of “assassination” when Israelis assassinate any Palestinian political figures.
– Yes, but this is in response to the targeted killing of:
– Passengers on busses (Including Israeli Muslims)
– Customers in cafes

Would you prefer Israel respond in kind by destroying a loaded Palestinian bus every time one of theirs is bombed?

“Hezbollah members are not soldiers. – What would you call them then?”
– I call them terrorists and at this moment I think that every Hezbollah ‘soldier’ with a gun in-hand should be shot on sight. That is not always so easy since they like to dress like you and me.

Abu,
You tell me:
– Were the 9/11 hijackers terrorists?
– Were the London subway bombers terrorsits?
– Are those who strap explosives on and blow themselves up in a bus terrorists?

What about the muslim who shot 5 jewish women in the US yesterday simply because they were jewish. Is he a terrorist? (2 of them were pregnant.)

@aet75 (post 313): You are so right.

No the lebanese aren’t “getting what they asked for”. It’s a shitty situation and I’m just hoping that something good would come out of it (disarming of Hezbollah).

But it is what the Shiite Lebanese asked for when they voted for Hezbollah. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Finland, as the country holding the presidency of the European Union, has completely dropped the ball on this one. Europe had a real opportunity to make a difference, and to play the international role it imagines itself capable of, but it looks like this “Hour of Europe” will stretch into insignificance with the dithering duo of Halonen and Tuomioja trying to figure out what to do.

God damn it people, two wrongs don’t make a right! Delivering 155mm shells on non-combatants is just WRONG. No matter who they voted/supported for. There is no excuse. Is it to be believed that it’s okay to kill arbitrarily just out of anger and frustration? This infantile ‘they did it first’ mentality just works to perpetuate the violence. If you pay back in kind, what makes you better than a terrorist?
I have to agree with Finnpundit about Finland’s (non-existent) stance on this conflict. The official reaction should be outrage and absolute condemnation of the Israeli operation.
As of the Jewish people, having suffered, and still suffering so much, it is remarkable that they are so callous about the distress of innocent others.

Delivering 155mm shells on non-combatants is just WRONG.

No, it’s not, if non-combatants willingly embed themselves with the combatants they voted for.

The official reaction should be outrage and absolute condemnation of the Israeli operation.

Actually, it’s time for Halonen to apologize to Israel for making off-hand comments that Israel was to blame for the deaths of the UN soldiers.

Well, leave it to you limp-noodled Europeans to leave Israel to the dogs. Your (and Finland’s) lack of support of Jews during World War II, for example, gives you as much credibility as a donkey’s ass.

Iran, via Hezbollah, clearly instigated this crisis. Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers. Hezbollah and Hamas *routinely* commit acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. Hezbollah knowingly aims missiles into civilian areas in Israel. One of the prisoners Hezbollah wants “exchanged” for the soldiers smashed a four-year old girl’s skull into a rock, right after firing into her dad’s head.

Contrast this with Israel’s reaction: raining down leaflets into civilian areas beforehand, telling people to evacuate. Radio broadcasts warning people to evacuate soon-to-be-bombed areas. Targeting infrastructure, not kindergartens. Of course Israel has killed civilians, but you can be sure that that is not their sole, nor their desired aim.

And as for Israel’s “overreaction”? Kiss my cute, conservative Finnish-American ass. You have to act like a goddamned pit bull when everyone around you wants you dead.

Why the hell people think terrorist organizations have the moral upper hand here seems outrageous to me. What is wrong with you?

AmeriikanEnkeli @321

… raining down leaflets into civilian areas beforehand, telling people to evacuate. Radio broadcasts warning people to evacuate soon-to-be-bombed areas…

Yeh, Yeh, maybe you forgot to mention that they even write *warning messages* on the missiles;
http://fromisrael2lebanon.info/

Fred Fry @315

like the businessman they traded for 1,000+ prisoners.
=> He was an espionage agent and not a businessman

Would you prefer Israel respond in kind by destroying a loaded Palestinian bus every time one of theirs is bombed?

They do much more …
Fred, I sincerely ask you to read the following headlines which was recorded during July only:

27 July 2006: Israel kills 23 in bloody day
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gaza27jul27,1,178534.story?coll=la-headlines-world

15 July 2006: Israel kills 32 in air strikes
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060715/wl_nm/mideast_dc_356

13 July 2006: Family of nine killed as they slept
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1819014,00.html

12 July 2006: Assassination attempt kills entire family, at least 23
dead
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12236669.htm

78 Palestinians, three Israelis killed in May and June
http://www.btselem.org/english/press_releases/20060702.asp

More can be found via this link:
http://fromoccupiedpalestine.org/index.php?or=203

Fred Fry @315

Abu,
You tell me:
- Were the 9/11 hijackers terrorists?
- Were the London subway bombers terrorsits?

No doubt! they are all terrorists. Same applies to Bali and Madrid bombings.
However, ALL “suicide” attacks against US in Iraq and Afghanistan are very legitimate and has nothing to do at all with terrorism

– Are those who strap explosives on and blow themselves up in a bus terrorists?
=> Bombing a bus to kill 10 Israeli civilians in a retaliation for killing 100 Palestinian civilians is NOT a terrorism

Fred Fry @315

What about the muslim who shot 5 jewish women in the US yesterday simply because they were jewish. Is he a terrorist? (2 of them were pregnant.)

Yes, he is a terrorist.
Targeting Israelis outside Israel is an act of terror.

Hamas and Hezbuallah never ever targeted any Israeli outside Israel and the occupied territories.

Abu Omar:
“ALL “suicide” attacks against US in Iraq and Afghanistan are very legitimate and has nothing to do at all with terrorism”

Even in cases where the aim is not to “protect” Iraqis from wicked imperialists (which is just their twisted interpretation) but just to kill infidels for the sake of killing infidels?

Why suicide attacks against American troops in Afghanistan are legitimate? The last time I checked the Taleban wasn’t particularly popular there and the American presence isn’t despised by the public – neither was Saddam a popular figure in Iraq (the toppling was widely supported by the Iraqi public).

“Well, leave it to you limp-noodled Europeans to leave Israel to the dogs. Your (and Finland’s) lack of support of Jews during World War II, for example, gives you as much credibility as a donkey’s ass.”

Got a source? The story I heard was that Finnish Jews were not mistreated in any way are fight alongside their Christian counterparts.

To Finland’s shame there were some deportations to Germany, but most of these deportees were not Jewis, but rather communists, etc.

Although Finland choose to sleep with Hitler. Following the logic of the antisemites on this post that would mean they have the blood of millions of Jews on their hands.

And don’t tell me they had do it because of Russia. Read your own posts. Making military alliances and fighting and killing your enemy is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. No matter what the situation is.

All Finns should be prostesting outside their nursing homes, condeming the veterans inside.

Oh I forgot, when it comes to their own self preservation, Finns can kill whoever they want. But if anyone else does, watch out.

“THEY SHOULD PROMOTE PEACE BY LIVING PEACEFULLY, THAT’S WHAT WE DO AND IT WORKS.” Unless of course we are in a war. Then it doesn’t work. But lets just forgot about that FACT, it’s to inconvenient for us.

@320 (Feeling exhausted): All I can say is that I hope our race will outlive you and your kind, however unlikely it might seem. May be our kids can do it better, because we just absolutely fucked it up.

Delivering 155mm shells on non-combatants is just WRONG.

No…. It is called war.

Someone attacked and took 2 Israel solders. Its called AN ACT OF WAR in case you missed the finer points of relationships between countries.

Same thing when you plot to kill a USA president. It is AN ACT OF WAR

Same thing when Russia attacked Finland in WW2. It is AN ACT OF WAR

Lets not cry any tears here. Israel is just responding to AN ACT OF WAR

About that simple guys.

May be our kids can do it better, because we just absolutely fucked it up.

I find younger, voting age people to be the most misinformed of all. They tend to live in a la-la land of utopian idealism. Which is okay, as long as they don’t pretend they have the historical, economic and political experience to come up with the solutions for today’s problems.

As for “fucking it up”, I think we’re doing just fine in exterminating as many of our enemies as possible. And that is a good thing.

“No doubt! they are all terrorists. Same applies to Bali and Madrid bombings.”
– Thank you for admitting that there are terrorists out there!

“However, ALL “suicide” attacks against US in Iraq and Afghanistan are very legitimate and has nothing to do at all with terrorism”
– Most of the suicide attacks in Iraq are against other muslims. You hear of Iraqis dying each day, not Americans. (Like the killing would stop if the US just up and left.)

“Bombing a bus to kill 10 Israeli civilians in a retaliation for killing 100 Palestinian civilians is NOT a terrorism”
– Ok, then you should accept the type of war that is going on there and why the majority of Palestinians suffer, because of the few willing to carry out those attacks.

“Targeting Israelis outside Israel is an act of terror.”
– The Pakistani shooter never bothered to check if the Jews he shot were Israeli. He was after Jews. Are you telling me that Muslims see a difference between an Israeli and a Jew?

“Hamas and Hezbuallah never ever targeted any Israeli outside Israel and the occupied territories.”
– They do target peacekeepers and the last time I checked, Lebanon was not Israel.
– What about the Arab Israelis? 15-20% of them are muslims right? What about them?

Well Omar, what will it take for the vilence to stop. I am not saying this activity, I am saying long-term. Give back Sheeba Farms (Syrian, not Lebanese); get completely out of the West Bank and Gaza; share Jeruselum; right of return. Is that enough? What else? Where does this end? We have all heard the Irian goal. How far is that from the truth?

Thanks for the insight.

Well sieg fucking heil guys. It’s comforting for me to know, going to bed that the fine ideals of one illustrious Austrian live on.

I’m glad you agree with the ideals of Arnold Schwarzenegger, too.

Your illustrious Austrian’s ideas are alive and well in the Arab world. In fact, Ahmedinijad speaks highly of him.

The very latest news headlines:

Israel kills 56 civilians in the latest night air raid. There are 21 kids among the dead.
Source: Al-Jazeera

Could anyone tell me how many Hezbuallah militants have been killed so far?

Mikko Sandt @326

but just to kill infidels for the sake of killing infidels?

If infidels or Muslims or anybody is an occupier, then he is a legitimate target for any kind of attack -within the occupied territories-

American presence isn’t despised by the public – neither was Saddam a popular figure in Iraq (the toppling was widely supported by the Iraqi public).

Well, similar propaganda emerged about Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Your American TV channels are bringing you lies.
Do you remember Colin Powell lies in UN:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/19/powell.un/

Abu Omar, you didn’t answer the question about the suicide bombings in Iraq targeting innocent civilians. Are you going to continue your ignorant ranting or start thinking with your own brain?

Also you made a telling mistake when you referred to American jews as israelis.

Fred Fry @332

Most of the suicide attacks in Iraq are against other muslims.

And that is terrorism as well.

Are you telling me that Muslims see a difference between an Israeli and a Jew?

Yes, we -Muslims and Arabs- have nothing at all against Jews.
There are huge Jewish communities in many Arab countries, such as Egypt, Morocco, Yemen, Iraq and Syria.
Have you heard any news about targeting Jews in any of the above mentioned Arab countries.
Our battle is with Israelis who invaded our land and displaced 3 millions Palestinian.
The “Pakistani shooter” is criminal and should be convicted according to what he did.

They do target peacekeepers and the last time I checked, Lebanon was not Israel.

When did they do that? Could you please clarify more.

What about the Arab Israelis? 15-20% of them are muslims right?

Some of my close relatives are living there actually, and I know that they suffer, especially that the racist state of Israel do discriminate between Israelis and Israeli-Arabs when it comes to protecting them.
Please, read the following headlines:
http://www.jewishtimes.com/News/5814.stm
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0607210167jul21,1,1654453.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Well Omar, what will it take for the vilence to stop. I am not saying this activity, I am saying long-term. Give back Sheeba Farms (Syrian, not Lebanese); get completely out of the West Bank and Gaza; share Jeruselum; right of return. Is that enough?

The violence will end if Israel get out from Gaza and West Bank, allows the Right of Return and demolish the Apartheid Wall

I am not sure if you are aware engough about the Apartheid Wall. Please check the following links:
http://thewallofhate.org/
http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1724.shtml
http://www.pengon.org/wall/wall.html

Believe me my friend, if Israelis do pull out from the occupied terretories, and let the Palestinians to go back to their lands, then ALL sort of violence will END immediately.

#338

Abu Omar, you didn’t answer the question about the suicide bombings in Iraq targeting innocent civilians.

That is terrorism for sure. I said that in a previous entry I guess.
Targeting innocent civilians is surely an act of terror!
However, if your enemy targets your civilians and killed 100 of them, then you have to react and to kill 10 in return -not 100-.
The enemy must know that he will pay a price for targeting civilians

Also you made a telling mistake when you referred to American jews as israelis.

American Jews are NOT Israelis. Any attack against them -outside Israel- is an act of terror. I said that clearly in a pervious entry.
Hamas did never ever targeted any Jews outside Israel!
Can you bring any single incidents of Hamas or Hizboallah targeting Jews outside Israel?

m @338

Are you going to continue your ignorant ranting or start thinking with your own brain?

Please remind me of any open question that I ignored.

Abu.. Look at us Finns living in peace with Russia for the past 60 years.. Do you think it was easy to give up Karelia and let the bygones be bygones? No it was not. Infact, my grandfathers used to swear Russians everytime they got drunk, reliving their 5 (well, the other served only 3 years during wartime) years of war memories again and again until the day the died..

But we have had peace. Not an easy peace, but peace nevertheless. It had its price, it has changed the whole nation as you can tell from our politicians who are careful not to thread on any toes.. But we have had peace..

Why can not Palestinians do the same? What is it that keeps you hating Isrealis so much that you can not have a peace with them? Why do you have to glorify the suicide bombers and dance on the streets when innocents get slaughtered in places as far away as New york or Madrid? What is it that you have against the west? Why did you guys support Hizbollah and Hamas when you knew it would piss off Israelis? Leading directly into this latest conflict.

There can be no peace in the place where you came from until the day when you guys do the same as Finns. You must take your peace. You must drive away the people meddling in your business, trying to weaponize your suffering. You must trade the pride of not giving up the fight to the lives of your children. If you do not.. Your great, great, great grandchildren will be dying in the same foolish war.

But maybe that is what you want? Fight until there is no more Isreal? Can you imagine if Finns felt the same way about Russia. Thank God, we do not.

What did the Lesbians do to deserve this persecution? Antigayism?

Targeting innocent civilians is surely an act of terror!

Lets not waste any tears on this guys. First they are not innocent, when they have given shelter and aid to those shooting rockets into Israel.

No crying please. Thats for the French White flag of surrender types.

I’ve come up with a foolproof plan to end crime in Finland, and I have liberalism to thank for it. It consists of disbanding every police unit in Finland and encouraging the United Nations Security Council to draft a binding resolution that places strict sanctions on domestic criminals who continue to break the law.

How do I know this will work? Well, I can’t be 100% positive that it will, but most people in the world support that very same plan when it comes to dealing with the problem of international terrorism, and everyone knows that the majority is never wrong, so it only makes sense that such a strategy would be effective when applied to domestic crime prevention.

Any supporters?

STP @342

The case is very diffirent:
- There are 5 million Palestinian refugees living in the refugee camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees
=> How many Finns are still living in refugee camps?

- Israel occupied Jerusalem which is the capital of Palestine.
=> Would you Finns tolerate it if Russia have occupied Helsinki?

- There are more than 10,000 kidnapees in Israeli jails, many of them are there since 1980.
=> Are there any Finns kidnapped by Russia?

- Israel committed more than 100 masscares in Palestine.
http://www.seek-info.com/massacres.htm
Today morning at 1:30 am, they commited the “2nd Qana Massacre”, where 70 civilians were killed, among them 23 kids.
=> How many massacres did Russia commit in Finland?

- Israel besieged the Palestinians in the Aperthied Wall.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3879057.stm
http://thewallofhate.org/
http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/
=> Do you have such a wall around cities in Finland?

- Israel violates 12 UN SC resolutions (not to mention those resolution which were blocked by the US veto. Refer to post #306 of this thred).
http://www.accuracy.org/article.php?articleId=1026
You might remember the SC resolution 1405, where your ex-president Ahtisaari was in charge of the UN fact-finding team, and how -he and his team- were intimidated by Israelis.
This how a well-known Palestinian cartoonist expressed it:
http://www.mahjoob.com/en/archives/view.php?cartoonid=1359
=> How many UN SC are violated by Russia regarding Finland

I would like to hear your answers to my questions above

winter @345

First they are not innocent, when they have given shelter and aid to those shooting rockets into Israel.

So, in case of a war between Russia and Finland, Finns should flee Finland and should denounce their army actions against Russian army, and should not support it at all. Otherwise they will become a legitimate target for Russian rockets. Right?

Abu,
“Please remind me of any open question that I ignored.”

Take a look at #331. I asked you what will Israel have to concede for a lasting peace. In addition to the items above, lets add:
– Return Golar;
– Release all prisoners.

What is the price? What will end the war?

(Funny how the reasons for war now, occupied lands, were actually obtained by Israel winning past wars…..)

Abu Omar relies on obfuscations as well as a continual mixing of apples and orange to help support assertions. The situation of Finland defending its sovereignty against the Soviet Union during a time of war has nothing to do with terrorist militia groups targeting civilians for murder while hiding within its own civilian population.

Terrorist cowards store and shoot their weapons/rockets from within populated areas, with little regard for the people they’re putting at risk. That Israel has repeatedly warned civilians to leave the intended targeted area in advance, puts its armed forces at a disadvantage by giving the Hezbollah the heads up on the ensuing attack.

Also, the Hezbollah bombing of a Jewish communal center in Argentina in 1994,… was an act of terrorism.

Abu Omar:
“If infidels or Muslims or anybody is an occupier, then he is a legitimate target for any kind of attack -within the occupied territories-”

On what grounds? Would it have been legitimate for Germans to attack Allied occupiers in post-WW2 Germany?

“Well, similar propaganda emerged about Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction.”

Irrelevant. I wasn’t talking about Weapons of Mass Destruction of Powell’s propaganda.

KHS59

terrorist militia groups targeting civilians for murder while hiding within its own civilian population.

That’s what the Israeli and American propaganda machinery are producing.
What makes you to be so sure about that?
Can you tell me how many Hezbuallah fighters have been killed?

That Israel has repeatedly warned civilians to leave the intended targeted area in advance,

Do you believe it yourself!
If Israelis were that nice to Lebanese, and send them warning messages to flee their villages and towns, won’t Hezboallah fighters flee as well?

There’s an interesting piece in Salon called “The ‘hiding among civillians myth’”. Worth a read.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index.html

That’s what the Israeli and American propaganda machinery are producing.
What makes you to be so sure about that?

What makes you so sure any children at all have died in Lebanon? Those photos could have easily been photoshopped beforehand by Hezbollah for just this kind of conflict, and distributed with the aid of fellow Al-Jazeera conspirators.

Oh, and Gary Brecher, the “War Nerd” of the English-language Moscow-based publication eXile, has an interesting take on the Israeli-Lebanese situation.
http://www.exile.ru/2006-July-28/a_hezbollah_upon_all_of_thee.html

Here’s a quote from the article:

“Hezbollah has great soldiers. That’s one reason I can’t help liking them. They’re some of the most underrated soldiers on earth facing what I consider the most overrated military force on earth, the IDF. The Israelis have been coasting on their reputation for a long time, but way back in Gulf War I it was clear they made their record like a Don King fighter, padding their Win column against a bunch of bums.”

Abu,
“Please remind me of any open question that I ignored.”

THIRD REQUEST!

Take a look at #331. I asked you what will Israel have to concede for a lasting peace. In addition to the items above, lets add:
- Return Golar;
- Release all prisoners.

What is the price? What will end the war?

What makes you so sure any children at all have died in Lebanon? Those photos could have easily been photoshopped beforehand by Hezbollah for just this kind of conflict,

Al-Jazeera broadcasted live the rescue operations from Qana.
The pictures of the buried kids and women were horrifying.

distributed with the aid of fellow Al-Jazzier conspirators.

BTW,
Al-Jazzier will host Tarja Halogen in one of the most watched political program, Wed 2.8.2006 at 10:00 pm

Fred Fry @355

What is the price? What will end the war?

Sorry Fred, but I answered your question in post #339.
This was my answer quoted below:

—————-
The violence will end if Israel get out from Gaza and West Bank, allows the Right of Return and demolish the Apartheid Wall

I am not sure if you are aware engough about the Apartheid Wall. Please check the following links:
http://thewallofhate.org/
http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1724.shtml
http://www.pengon.org/wall/wall.html

Believe me my friend, if Israelis do pull out from the occupied terretories, and let the Palestinians to go back to their lands, then ALL sort of violence will END immediately.
—————-

What is the price? What will end the war?

To put it easy,
The war will end the ultimate peace will be achieved if Israel implements ALL UN Security Council resolutions, including those resolution which were blocked ONLY by US.

A list of violated resolutions by Israel can be found below:
http://www.accuracy.org/article.php?articleId=1026
Refer to post #306 for the blocked resolutions

#finnpundit

us aids israel with 2,563.5 billion dollars (2006 est.), so finnsicko why don’t you hate them also after all they are american worker-consumers taxmoney.

aren’t the isrealis exploiting the poor american-consumer-idiots?

For Abu,

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/images/leaflet2.gif

It reads:

“To all citizens south of the Litani River Due to the terror activities being carried out against the State of Israel from within your villages and homes, the IDF is forced to respond immediately against these activities, even within your villages. For your safety! We call upon you to evacuate your villages and move north of the Litani River.” State of Israel

As for your observations on ending the war, typical for anti-Israel types to mention JUST ISRAEL, as if Israel could impliment UNSCR 242 all by itself. Being a Chapter Six resolution is lost on the “Abu types”. The fact that General Assembly passes 70% of its resolutions against ISrael, shows what a contempable disgrace of an organiztion the UN has become. Those resolutions are non binding, and with good reason, they are completely void of any rational logical thought, totally unbalanced and rightly ignored.

The fact that ABU mentions them, and probably adorns the walls of his house with them, should be enough reason for the casual observer to disregard them as well.

349: And here are some “Photos That Damn Hezbollah”. They certainly look like they try to blend in with civilians.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

Abu

“become a legitimate target for Russian rockets. Right?”

For once you got it right. Civilians are targets in a war. It is just that simple.

Now nobody is going to ever say that. But we all know that when the USA supported the muslims in Kosovo against the Serbian people it took the USA bombing of bridges and trains (i.e. the people) to get the war over faster.

So yes, no tears for the kids. The war just ends faster that way.

You guys ever see Star Trek (Original one) where they come across a planet at war, and the war is done on computers, so casualties are selected and off they go to a deconstructor room to die.

So what does Capt Kirk do? He blows up the deconstructor room so they can’t kill their own people, and make the war quota.

So the planet now has a real war with real killing ….

or….

the option to make peace.

and that folks is how the world works here to.

we just have not arrived at the place where the second option above (peace) is seen by the muslims as an option. Thus the 3rd World War continues.

“let the Palestinians to go back to their lands, then ALL sort of violence will END immediately.”

Right… and I have a bridge in New York for sale. Want it cheep?

Darn… did I just say the USA supported Muslims in Kosovo?

Note to one self… The Evil USA supporting the muslims??? How can that happen, as we are the evil one.

Maby Omar can explain? Omar ..any good reason the USA did this dirty trick?

Al-Jazeera broadcasted live the rescue operations from Qana.
The pictures of the buried kids and women were horrifying.

How do you know it wasn’t all taped in a studio backlot in Qatar?

Winter is right in that military establishments routinely target civillians. It’s bad when Hezbollah does it to Israel, and it’s bad when Israel does it to the Lebanese.

Israel’s “they shoot at us from the midst of civilians” argument is basically the same one that the Russians used to justify the “collateral damage” that their bombs inflicted on Finnish cities in the 1940s.

Dropping leaflets warning civilians to evacuate before an upcoming onslaught seems to be aimed more at scoring public relations points abroad than actually saving Lebanese lives. The “if you don’t evacuate, it’s your own fault if our bombs kill you” line is a bit cynical when it happens after several days of blasting the hell out of the local transport infrastructure.

Winter: I remember something about war of american independence. Something about punch of cowards, WEARING NO UNIVORMS, shooting fine British soldiers behind trees and bushes and using all kinds of guerilla tactics.

So tell me, how is the case of Palestine any different now ? They exactly do not own any F-16s or even ONE rusty old soviet tank. All they got is small arms and explosives againts huge army, supported by weekly allowances from the US tax payers.

I side with Israel 100%. If some nut case was attacking my home over and over again, putting my family in danger..I would hit back as hard as I could and take the nut OUT.

If my neighbor starts to shooting rockets at the county next door. Then the smart guy knows that country will respond, and leave. No nice notes needed.

Dropping leaflets was a waste of time. Drop bombs.

Note to Omar: I WANT my tax money funding bombs for Israel to blow up terrorists. I would even propose a tax increase just to pay for israels weapons and any mopping up operations.

Palestine could have had its peace for a long time now Tim. They do not want it. They want it on their own terms. This would be akin to Finland wanting to dictate the peace terms to Stalin back in ww2. Thank God our leaders / people were humble enough to take peace instead of endless war.

“Al-Jazeera broadcasted live the rescue operations from Qana.”

And Fox is showing video of rockets being fired from Qana.

I say… Super good job Israel. Keep up the good work.

That was a legitimate TARGET.

finnpundit
question #356 ?

winter @362

So yes, no tears for the kids. The war just ends faster that way.

Yes, for the sake of faster war …
Same logic adopted by US when they nuked Japan.

Finnpundit

@353
Those photos could have easily been photoshopped beforehand by Hezbollah for just this kind of conflict, and distributed with the aid of fellow Al-Jazeera conspirators.

@366
How do you know it wasn’t all taped in a studio backlot in Qatar?

You are right for sure …
Al-Jazeera has fabricated those pictures and videos.
They even deceived the UN SC members. Imagine!
All world leaders who condemned the massacre were misleaded by Al-Jazeera, right?

Finnpundit,
Your are so funny!

winter @369

I WANT my tax money funding bombs for Israel to blow up terrorists.

They are blowing up civilians and not terrorists.

I asked a question and nobody answered:
How many Hizbuallah fighters have been killed?

STP @370

They want it on their own terms.

No. They want it according to the UN SC resolutions.
End the occupation, return the refugees, share Jerusalem, and demolish the Apertheid Wall

Abu:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

winter @371

I say… Super good job Israel. Keep up the good work.
That was a legitimate TARGET.

winter, you are pathetic!
Enjoy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/5228392.stm

Just a reminder,
The “First Qana Massacre” was committed in April 1996, where 106 civilians (kids and women) were killed inside a UNIFIL compound after taking it a refuge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shelling_of_Qana

The “Second Qana Massacre” was committed today at 1:30 am, where 80 civilians were killed, among them 35 kids

Abu, if rogue Finnish nut would shoot rockets to Russia from the parking lot of a multistory building, would you cry out when Russian would respond with a missile and level that building..

“Palestine could have had its peace for a long time now Tim. They do not want it. They want it on their own terms. This would be akin to Finland wanting to dictate the peace terms to Stalin back in ww2.”

Actually, that is the argument that the USSR had against Finland, which in Stalin’s view, turned down some “very reasonable” demands over security.

Hamas and Hezbollah are a bunch of murdering pig eating sons of whores! Killing a four year old baby girl makes them freedom fighters? I think not! Did you hear about the prisioner exchange option that Hezbollah offered for the two Israeli soldiers which were captured?
The Hezbollah people, (if you could call them that) want two of their people released in exchange. One of them snuck into Israel via boat and attacked some civilians living in an apartment complex, they took them outside and started shooting them. One couple who heard the shooting outside decided on a twofold stratagy to make their escape, the mother would hide in the attic with their two year old daughter while the dad and the four year old daughter snuch out the back way. Unfortunately the dad was caught by the “heroic freedom fighters,” and so the Hezbollah chap in question placed him in front of his daughter and shot him in the head in front of his daughter just so her last thought in life would be of her dad being shot. Unfortunately the horror does not end here, the little girl’s head was pressed against a sharp rock so that her brains would be squished out of her head at which time the filthy animals cheered demonic glee. I was a fairly middle of the road sort of fellow before I read about this, I can think no better word to describe these people other than to say they are EVIL!

This might be related to our discussion in this thread;

I would like to inform you that will be a mass demonstration tomorrow, organized by the Finnish leftists to condemn the Israeli assaults against civilians in Palestine and Lebanon.
It will start at 17:00 from Kiasma, Helsinki center.

…a mass demonstration tomorrow, organized by the Finnish leftists…

Doesn’t that already tell you that support for Palestine is completely a partisan cause, and doesn’t necessarily reflect the unanimous consensus of the nation, nor the world? If that is so, how can you even pretend that the Palestinian cause is based on justice? It is not, since there is no consensus.

The more rational approach would be to examine the question of the “justness” of the Palestinian and Hizbollah cause from a contrarian point of view: how are Palestinian and Hizbollah activists not like the Mafia? They both use murder and mayhem to advance their power. They both hold the world hostage with the promise of murder and terror should they not get their way. And they both exult in the kind of loose-cannon machismo that makes them not only dangerous to others, but also to the families, neighborhoods and people they claim they are protecting.

No, Hezbollas and Palestinian activists are basically mob operations. They’ve even been able to corrupt, – with the aid of politico leftwing activists – the equivalent of city hall: the UN. In the end, “it’s Chinatown”, albeit on an international scale.

And the left supports this…..

“Hezbollah has its say in Lebanon towns. Each town received resistance fighters and armed to the teeth, they stored rockets in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. “

Quana updade not found on a Al-Jazeera broadcast

“The IDF believes that Hizbullah explosives in the building were behind the explosion that caused the collapse.”

They killed themselves? Wow was that stupid.

Who the frak cares about the number of Hizbullah killed? Lets get the civilian deaths up, and win the war.

Its that simple.

There is new infra red video tape showing Hezbollah rockets being launched from the building in Qana.

Israeli military will not say for sure if it is that building until they do more research, but it sure looks like it. We’ll see.

The world seems to tolerate better the deaths of a handful of Israelies each month by terrorists, year after year, than the deaths of Lebanese civilians thrust in front of the muzzle of the Israeli gun by those same terrorists, after the terrorists have brought upon themselves Israel’s military reprisal. Perhaps many would be happy if Israel quit defending itself, and tolerated the constant loss of human life to terrorism like good little Jews.

Ed Aho: I agree, but I’d go further: Muslims devalue the lives of their fellow Muslims, because the people making those kinds of choices (Hamas, Hezbollah, and other terrorists), imagine that “martyrdom” is all okay, because it’s for the greater Islamic good. And it is these political parties (Hamas, Hezbollah) that seem to have the support of the Muslim voters.

If that’s the case, why should we impose our cultural bias of valuing all human life on a culture that doesn’t agree with that?

So the fact that there are numerically more Muslim civilian victims than Israeli victims is quite besides the point. Muslims lives are, by their very own definition, quite expendable. Israeli lives are not, considering that the Israelis do care about each an every one of their citizens, as has been amply demonstrated.

I’m tired of all the drama of equivalency, and “disproportionate response” and all the other sound bites. Muslims don’t care about the life and safety of their fellow Muslims, in any conflict with Israel, or even in any conflict amongst themselves. If that is the case, we shouldn’t impose our cultural bias – of caring – on them, either. That would be a completely colonialist tendency, in the end.

“Muslims don’t care about the life and safety of their fellow Muslims, in any conflict with Israel, or even in any conflict amongst themselves. If that is the case, we shouldn’t impose our cultural bias – of caring – on them, either.”

So the mentality of supporters of the US-Israeli axis of – whatever – comes out in its true colours: the lives of Muslims do not matter. At least Finnpundit has dropped all pretense of holding any moral high ground.

373# So Abu comes out from his shell and openly demands the end of the Israeli state. No surprise there.

As for the amount of intolerant Islamist Lebanese Shia’a supporters in Hezbollahstan, their death toll is in the hundreds. But the reason why they are so successfull in ensuring the death of their civilian population can be found here:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1153291989232&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Also: the building in Qana collapsed hours after the attack:
http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2006/07/israel-building-collapsed-hours-after.html

“the building in Qana collapsed hours after the attack”

Big deal. There was also a lapse of time between at the World Trade Center from when the planes hit and when the twin towers collapsed.

It seems that in both cases there are those who claim that the collapse was caused by explosives in the building, and not the attack itself.

STP @380

Abu, if rogue Finnish nut would shoot rockets to Russia from the parking lot of a multistory building, would you cry out when Russian would respond with a missile and level that building.

Hezbuallah has a massive support among Lebanese -both Muslims and Christians-.
Hezbuallah fighters don’t mingle with civilians, otherwise they will loose the civilians support.
Hiding among civilians is a false claim made by Israeli propaganda machinery and relayed by US media.

Abu is lying through his teeth.

There is ample evidence available that proves that the Hezbollah is using both the UN and its fellow lebanese as shields.
Here:
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50
And here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ8fSkSMhjw

As for the Qana building, it was being used as a place from which to launch rockets, and constitutes a war crime by the Hezbollah. Any deaths that followed the launching of those rockets are the sole fault of the HEzbollah. The building’s collapse was over 8 hrs. later, and gives rise to the speculation that it was being used as a ware house for Hezbollah arms. Only after a thourough investigation can any serious assessment be made.

What’s not in dispute though, is Hezbollah tactics of using the civilian population as human shields. Pure evil.

For all those who fail to understand why Israel is the bad guy in this situation, here’s a quote from an Israeli military historian and thinker of some note: “by definition, to return to what I said earlier, if you are strong and you are fighting the weak, then anything you do is criminal”.(Martin van Creveld) A strong man beating up on a child is always in the wrong, no matter what the provocation. (Van Creveld’s comparison in one of his books, not mine.) The guy used to be read and has even taught in various military academies, but I suppose he’ll be replaced by the military wit and wisdom of the Neocon wise men, who’ve done such a brilliant job planning these Middle Eastern wars of choice, once these wars are won, any day now.
OK, let’s try this line of thought: As long as the IDF hide among the Israeli civilians and refuse to come out and fight, the Hezbollah has no alternative except to fire rockets at Israel. The Hezbollah military wing, having learned from the mistakes of the Palestinians, stays well away from civilians who’d be bound to include traitors. The IDF, who want to win a war without actually fighting (and taking casualties), are bombing civilians in the hope of hurting some Hezbollah fighters by sheer dumb luck. This has, so far, failed to produce any real results.
The Hezbollah civilian supporters are of course no different from the civilian supporters of the Israeli government. If it is OK to kill one, killing the other must be OK too. Goes for any non-Israelis supporting the Israeli government (like the Seattle center). If terrorism (attacking civilians intentionally to terrorize their community) is acceptable, as FinnPundit, winter and Fred Fry argue above (for their own side only, of course, as good hypocrites), then it must be true for all civilians, not just the civilians on one side of a conflict. Now I’m not in favour of terrorism, but some of the posters above clearly are, as long as it is their side that’s doing it.

Finnpundit @384

and doesn’t necessarily reflect the unanimous consensus of the nation, nor the world?

No, there is a world-wide consensus that Israel is a rogue state.
Simply, look at the number of UN SC resolutions violated by it.
Without the US uniliteral veto, there would be more than 40 reolution accusing Israel for every kind of human rights violation.

You have to be open-minded, educated and unbiased to understand what it means
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4472169.stm

I’m not aware of any other country that got such a score in SC resolutions, other than Israel.

winter @386

“The IDF believes that Hizbullah explosives in the building were behind the explosion that caused the collapse.”

The same IOF (Israel Offensive Forces) made similar kind of allegations against Palestinians to strike the Red Cross ambulances

Where there similar kind of explosives when the IOF shelled the UNIFIL compound in Qana 10 years ago?

Ed Aho @389

The world seems to tolerate better the deaths of a handful of Israelies each month by terrorists

Do you have any figures about those deaths in Israeli side?
During July only, more than 800 Lebanese civilains have been killed by the American-Israeli F-16s

Wow, 392 comments, new world record!

395# About Pali terrorists using ambulances….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqGjz7iJTns&mode=related&search

394# Israel is not in violation of any UNSC chapter 7 resolutions.

Gee I wonder why apartheid Saudi Arabia never has been on the receiving end of an UN resolution? Answer: Arab League. Here is a good reason for one:

http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2006/02/saudi-arabia-and-their-roads-of.html

KGS59 @392

As for the amount of intolerant Islamist Lebanese Shia’a supporters in Hezbollahstan, their death toll is in the hundreds. But the reason why they are so successfull in ensuring the death of their civilian population can be found here:

Can you explain the massive support of Hezbuallah among ALL Lebanese including those who ate being killed by Israelis?

If Hezbuallah is really hiding among the civilians and using the civilian infrastructure, then most certainly he will loose all kind of support.

So ABU now wishes to go on record for not admitting the obvious, that Hezbollah is not parking its weoponry as well as launching them form public areas? Christians fleeing Lebanon talk of Hezbollah firing rockets from their properties, Druze hate them as well.

Who dares not to support armed thugs that can make you dissapear in the middle of the night? Besides, Hezbollah controls EVERYTHING in the south, including businesses, restaurants and public services ect. The other Shiiä party Amal, does not have its own standing army, they participate in the government run military. Its time to make the Hezbollah do the same.

KGS59 @396

There is ample evidence available that proves that the Hezbollah is using both the UN and its fellow lebanese as shields.

So, in addition to the Red Cross ambulances and the civilian infrastructure, Hezbuallah is using UN posts as well …

The Lebanese government is asking for an independent fact-finding team to investigate the Israeli crimes against humanity. Let’s see if Israelis will accept it or not.

At least, they violated the UNSC resolution 1405, where your ex-president Ahtisaari was in charge of the UN fact-finding team, and how -he and his team- were intimidated by Israelis.

Israel has a long history of committing massacres and hiding the evidence. No one can forget the Jenin’s massacre in 2002 and how they intimidated the whole world to keep silent about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_2002#Human_Rights_Watch_report

KGS59 @404

Christians fleeing Lebanon talk of Hezbollah firing rockets from their properties, Druze hate them as well.

Come and see those “Christians” in today’s demonstration?
In last week’s demonstration there were a huge number of Lebanese, both Muslims and Christians. All were chanting for Hezbuallah’s favor.

Most of Finnish-Lebanese were evacuated from Lebanon -by the Finnish government-. Many of them will be present in today’s demonstration. Come and hear their opinion and views about Hezbuallah, and the massive support it enjoys among ALL Lebanese.

KGS59 @404

Who dares not to support armed thugs that can make you dissapear in the middle of the night?

Well, the logic says that this the best time to overthrow Hezbuallah’s control of the south, especially that is being hit by Israel.

If you argument is true, then Hezbuallah would have gone totally by the first week of Israeli assault.

Can you explain why Hezbuallah is still at large despite the 5000 F-16 air raids, and the 800 civilians deaths?

1.) 1405 was a NON-binding resolution. Please go pound some sand.

2.) Another lie for ABU, Jenin. 55-56 Palis killed majority of them being fighters, with 23 Israeli soldiers dead.

No massacre happened.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24668-2002May2.html
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/218vnicq.asp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2165272.stm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-08-01-unreport-jenin_x.htm
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenin_massacre

Please go pound some more sand.

@407,
I can: when your country is attacked, you side with those who defend it (even if you do not agree with them on everything), not with those who’d co-operate with your country’s enemies. If you’ve any guts, that is.

prince of dorkness @408

I agree, it is a sound reasoning.
This explains why Christians and other Lebanese parties are supporting Hezbuallah.

If Hezbuallah is using the civilian as a shield, then they for sure, will exploit the current political and military conditions to overthrow Hezbuallah.

There is a huge difference between “terrorists” and “freedom fighters”.
Hamas was first recognized by US as a terrorist group, and then by UK and later by EU. That was a low price deal between US and EU.
However, the UN, Russia and many other independent countries do not consider Hamas as a terrorist group.

“This explains why Christians and other Lebanese parties are supporting Hezbuallah.”

This is, in fact, typical of the dynamics of the mideast situations: policies and actions perpetrated by extremists of either side inevitably benefit the extremists on the other.

Scattered acts of terrorism by hard-line Palestinians boosted the standing of Likud in Israel, which reacted in a manner that undermined the political position of Palestinian moderates, boosting the popularity of Hamas, and increasing the ranks of volunteers for martyrdom (suicide bombings), thus further enraging Israeli public opinion, giving the green light for more crackdowns, leading to greater backlash…

It’s called a cycle of violence.

Wise words Kimmo..I wish that cycle could be broken..

This operation will continue for some days now, since the IDF will certainly do their best to reduce Hezbollah’s military capability.

The problem remains, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, although a party in government, they are neither the state nor the Lebanese Army. Terrorist organizations store their military hardware in a different way from regular armies and this complicates the Israeli mission.

Civilian casualties are not only a regrettable byproduct of the war, in this case it’s also a problem of winning the hearts and minds of the Lebanese and of the rest of the world in the war on terror.

Fred said giving money to these guys is no solution since they want you (Israel or America or whatever) dead anyway. See what happened in Afghanistan. That’s BS. In Afghanistan the US had given plenty of money to jihadists. Of course they would turn their backs on the Americans. Those people were supported in a different war for a different reason. They were paid to spread jihadism, not to spread democracy and human rights. That they wanted the Soviets dead was no guarantee for them not wanting other infidels dead. Afghanistan is a totally different story. Usually the downward spiral that led Afghanistan to the failed state situation that brought forth the Taleban is not blamed on too much generous US support, rather on the fact that Afghanistan became irrelevant from the US point of view after the Soviets had been thrown out of there.

Lebanon is a totally different matter and it’s not at all the same as Afghanistan and certainly not the same as the Palestinian Territories. Israel had pulled out of Lebanon, the people were happy with that. They didn’t want Israel wiped out of the map or more war. No way. They wanted to rebuild their country in peace. Hezbollah (who are not the same as the Lebanese people) wanted war. Not even they wanted a war like this, they wanted to keep on shooting rockets at Israelis without Israel striking back at them. But you can’t have all you want. Sure Hezbollah calculated that this is a lose-lose situation for Israel, damned if you do, damned if you don’t and that’s why they thought they could get away with shooting the rockets (whose real aim was never the death and destruction of Israel, it was not to disarm and to have an excuse to keep functioning as a terrorist organization even after the root cause of the terrorism had disappeared). Yet Hezbollah represents the biggest obstacle to a democratic Lebanon.

War and chaos are to some degree in Hezbollah’s interests. If the Lebanese situation wouldn’t be extreme (and the country was well on its way to becoming prosperous and happy again), the people could forget about Hezbollah. Extremist groups need extreme situations to justify their existence. The more bloodshed there is, the more cries there will be for Hezbollah to take action.

However, I think Hezbollah also got fooled by their Iranian benefactors. Now that Hezbollah had got a seat at the Lebanese government and Iranian oil money kept flowing in to help them provide welfare for the people, nobody says war and bloodshed would have been absolutely necessary to justify Hezbollah’s existence. But the Iranians don’t finance Hezbollah to keep the Lebanese people happy and to provide them welfare, they finance Hezbollah so that conflicts like this one can be created. So Hezbollah must have counted that it’s worth to screw the Lebanese people (and their own supporters who end up as refugees and casualties of this war) in order to keep Iranian money coming and make Tehran thankful for this nice little war that will keep attention away from Iran’s nuclear program. Hezbollah have made a devil’s bargain with their sponsors. That’s why they and their sponsors hope for a prolonged war which is not in Lebanese interests.

Whatever the Lebanese people think of the Israeli bombs, it was Hezbollah who ordered them to further Iranian, not Lebanese interest. With friends like that, the people of Southern Lebanon will once again end up on the losing side of a mindless war.

The only way forward is peace and reconstruction. The Lebanese people need peace to heal the communal rifts and to move forward. They are not hopeless hate-mongers or jihadist sympathisers, whatever Fred thinks of them. Hezbollah has not only brought war to them, they also have financed many meaningful projects that have benefited their constituents. But the price tag of that money coming from Tehran via Hezbollah to them is only now dawning to the Lebanese Shi’ite community. They weren’t catered for to keep them at peace, they were catered for to fight a proxy war for Iran.

There is a good reason for their being designated as terrorists, their methodology of intentional indiscrimiante murder and mayhem. As for all this resounding swell of support for the HEzbollah from the Christian and Druze community, I don’t see any convincing numbers.

It’s called a cycle of violence.

The cycle will end if Israel implements the UNSC resolutions.

@414,
at least Walid Jumblatt seems to think the Hezbollah has won this one and has no intention of siding with the losers. But I suppose you can name lots of Druze leaders who are happy to see their country destroyed by Israel.

Another Lebanese perspective, that despises the Hezbollah.

http://www.free-lebanon.com/

For those of you who can read Finnish, here’s an interesting commentary on the Helsingin Sanomat website, headlined “Hizbollah has already won”.
http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/artikkeli/Hizbollah+on+jo+voittanut/1135220863912

KGS59 @413

There is a good reason for their being designated as terrorists, their methodology of intentional indiscrimiante murder and mayhem.

Theier methodology is based on liberating the occupied lands ONLY.

@417

Interesting website – just about what one would expect from a Jerusalem-based “Lebanese government in exile”.

Hey Dork,

Druze areas are not being targeted, nor has 99% of Beirut, just Hezbollah strongholds. The Druze despise the Hezbollah just as much as the Christian community, they all understand well, the role of a “dhimmi”, and see the Hezbollah as the instrument to enforce such a scenario. The secretly hope that Israel is successful in crippling the Hezbollah in order for the international community to be able to disarm them and stop the flow of weapons to them from Iran’s weigh station, Syria.

As for ABU’s non-stop mantra of UN resolutions, anything passed by the general assembly is non-binding, they’re good enough to blow your nose in though. The only resolutions passed by the SC in regards to Israel AND OTHER ARAB STATES, are a chapter SIX type resolutions, to be handled through NEGOTIATIONS only, not by force.

If anything, this is a good learning opportunity for those who didn’t know about the various types of UNSC resolutions. But I have a feeling that ABU already had prior knowledge of what I have posted

420″

Laughable if it wasn’t so tragic. The charters for both terrorist orgs, see the destruction of the state of Israel as a goal. The UN already designated Israel’s withdrawal from S.Lebanon in 2000 as being complete, so the HezNazis have no business in maintaining hostilities with Israel.

Seeing that Iran, which shares no border with Israel has called for its destructions as well, it comes as no surprise when its proxy, the HezNazis demand Israel’s liquidation as well.

Try reading their charters ABU, its in English as well as in Arabic.

@421,
disarming the Hezbollah would take an army, one that wouild be willing to take serious casualties, occupying Lebanon. The Israelis apparently do not have one. The Americans might have one, but it is mired in Iraq and Afghanistan. So who’s gonna do the dying the Israelis won’t do? The Turks? There’d be a price. A fat slice of Northern Iraq, maybe? It’s not like anyone actually cares about the Kurds.

Here’s some quotes from fundamentalist isreali-nazis.

1. “There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies ­not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy.” Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
2. “The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”…. Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time – August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

3. ” [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

4. “The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

5. “When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. “How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

7. “There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

8. “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972.

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti – Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

11. “We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

12. “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” – Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI’s cover-up of the Israeli phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.)

13. “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces – Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

14. “We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return” David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

15. “We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.” David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

16. “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”

17. “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

18. “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’” Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

19. Rabin’s description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. “We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters” Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion’s special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From “The Arabs in Israel” by Sabri Jiryas.

20. “There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:…the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish…with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary.” Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

21. “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.” Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

22. “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.” Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

23. “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

24. “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” — Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

26. “We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent.” (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

27. “We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not…You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world.” (Chaim Weizmann, Published in “Judische Rundschau,” No. 4, 1920)

from empiresfall.blogspot

I’m sure that finnpundit, KGS, fred fry and other like minded sheeps agree with these statements about palestinians and muslims.

Ps. and yes the other side (hizbollah, al-qaida etc.) isn’t any diffrent than zionist-nazis, they all are religious zealots filled with idiocy and hateful ideology.

I especially liked quote #11

(Nazi-germany ayone?)

Reguritated anti-Israeli mumbo jumbo that are selectively taken out of context or pure fabrications.

Anyways, what matters most is the present day, where we see an Israel ready and willing to see a democratic viable Pali state.
As for Arab Nazis:

http://www.geocities.com/a_i_l_i_info/Facism-ME.html?1105016447989

#427

your comment really made my day, so you claim that those quotes are out of context or fabricated yep keep on dreaming.

Hope that someday you will be freed of religious dogma and neo-con indoctrination.

“the building in Qana collapsed hours after the attack”

Big deal.

Yea… 8 hrs later. plenty of time to get out IF YOU WANTED TO.

Maby they were just moving the amo out, and one went off? What a bunch of dumb dead folks.

Darwin at work here guys.

O: Quote #11 Chairman Heilbrun, 1983?

Is that the best you can come up with?

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=775

“When Shlomo Lahat was indeed re-elected as mayor of Tel Aviv in 1983, no record was found of any ‘Chairman Heilbrun’. The quote was traced to a 1988 book, ‘The Hidden History of Zionism’, by radical
Marxist Ralph Schoenman (dismissed by mainstream historians as a crazed conspiracy theorist), and is one of the many bogus quotes in the book attributed to Israeli leaders. According to Schoenman’s footnote, the quote by Heilbrun was hearsay relayed to him in private conversations”

Your source Empires Fall had taken it from What Really Happened?, the website of Michael Rivero, a self-proclaimed Republican supporter of the freedom of speech for holocaust deniers. More on Rivero (the whole list of quotes originates to his website):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rivero

you can check if they are real there are souces after each quote where they were taken from.

but oh woe I forgot new york times is evil propaganda leaflet that fabricates everything so all of them must be fake

O: I said nothing about New York Times quotes, you said quote #11 was your personal favorite but that quote has no source. The source of that quote happens to be a bogus claim by a conspiracy theorist nut. That some of the quotes are accurate doesn’t mean that your personal favorite quote isn’t complete BS. You said “Nazi Germany anyone” and that’s what I thought, the “Chairman Heilbrun” quote was pure propaganda that reminded me of Goebbels. You put some true quotes, then an untrue quote and suddenly you highlight the untrue quote to make your case.

#432

Okay if quote 11 is bullshit then I’m sorry for highlighting it so forget that one.

But still you can’t deny that the quotes which have true sources don’t give you an expression that some israeli leaders are executing similiar policies that nazis had.

Watch out Helsinkian,

He’ll toss in the bogus/fake Sharon quote that Israel control America, something he and ABU probably agree with.

O: what’s the point of quote 26?: “We will have world government…”

That was actually said by the banker James Paul Warburg (a son of Paul Warburg who had been dead for quite a long time then) who had been a financial adviser to FDR in the 1930s. That James Warburg quote is probably put into that list to prove that the Jews are into world government. But what was Warburg talking about? The UN? The US dominating the world? Soviet ambitions to conquer the world?

No, I don’t know the exact context of that “world government” quote but I have a hard time in seeing what that has to do with Israel dominating Arabs. It’s just there because Warburg was a Jew and some people have this idea that that’s a religion that wants to take over the world. To me that quote isn’t too impressive, even if those were the exact words that James Warburg uttered in front of the US Senate in 1950.

Well, my favorite qoutes are #10 and #14

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

14. “We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return” David Ben-Gurion

The Zionists where lured by the very successful model implemented in America, Canada and Australia where native habitants were exterminated, and never come back.

O: Quote #24 by Rabbi Yaacov Perrin about one million Arabs not being “worth a Jewish fingernail” is taken from his eulogy at the funeral of Baruch Goldstein, an infamous terrorist who had belonged to Kahane Chai movement. The movement was outlawed by Israel then and there, partly because of Goldstein’s terrorist atrocity and partly because of vicious statements such as Rabbi Perrin’s. This particular Rabbi was by no means a mouthpiece of the Israeli government. To the contrary, the pro-peace Israeli government was at that time continually under threat by extremists, one of whom assassinated PM Rabin a year later.

Qoute #12

12. “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” – Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon

US blocked 42 UNSC resolutions against Israel, unilaterally and against the whole world consensus .
The point here is not whether they are binding or not, the point here is that the Jewish people control America.

Having 42+12=54 UNSC resolutions against Israel -including those blocked by US- tells clearly that:
- Israel is a rogue state
- “the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it“

I also believe KGS is right about the quote attributed to Sharon having said to Peres “don’t worry about American pressure. We control America”. That quote is in somewhat enlarged form as #12 in the list of quotations.

http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/geyer.html

So first Hamas PR people quoted Sharon as saying “We control America” (and attributing this to Col Yisrael radio) and then they changed the quote to “We the Jewish people control America”. Apparently this was to begin with from a broadcast that never existed.

The “Jews rule America” and “Jews rule the world” bits that some of these quotes are supposed to highlight seriously diminish the effectiveness of this list of quotations as a whole, as you have to be a true believer in the Great Zionist Conspiracy to buy the whole package.

The question is, why aren’t the true quotes enough for the websites who promote this lists of quotes? My answer is that they are not really interested in criticizing the government of the State of Israel, they are using that as a pretext to promote their creed of “evil Jewish conspiracy” that is out there to dominate the world.

@438,
please, Abu Omar, if you could be bothered to look up actual American Jewish attitudes, you’d find they’re less likely, not more likely, than non-Jews, to support Neocon wars and politics. A ‘Jewish people’ of the kind you seem to imagine does not exist. This ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ type rubbish will get you nowhere.

Abu Omar is prone to one bone headed ascertion after another.
Ben-Gurion states to his son in a 1937 letter: ” And then we will have to use force and will use it without hesitation though only when we have no other choice. We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their place ['1ein anu rotsim ve-ein anu tsrihim legaresh avarim ve-lakahat mekomam']. All of our aspirations are built on the assumption- proven thourought all our activity in the Land [of Israel]- that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.” Efraim Karsh, New Historians “Fabricating Israeli History”

Ben-Gurion had no intention of expelling the Arabs, that is just age old propaganda by the anti-Zionists, and cannot stand the light of day.

#437
helsinkian

The reason why I find these quotes interesting is because as a ex-secular-jew (my family wasn’t very big on religion, we were quite like habit-christians like people in finland are) I had this who am I-period in my younger days.

During that period I was in Israel for a couple of months and talked to many religious scholars and israeli citizen and sometimes when the conversation involved muslims and palestinians it unfortunately sometimes involved similiar type of rhetoric that you might have expected to come out of hitlers or ahmedijans mouth.

I’m sure that there are normal good and decent folk in israel and hopefully they are in the majority even thou it’s hard to believe that when 80% of israelis are a OK with the current murdering of innocent lebanese civilians.

The genocide of over 6 million jews was one of the darkest hours in mankinds history but that doesn’t mean that in present israel has this get-out-of-jail-free-card as many of them belive.

and even if some of those quotes are bullshit to me they are completely feasible comments that reflect the morality and ideology of the state of Israel.

Ps. critcising israel doesn’t mean that one is anti-semite

Abu #436: it’s funny that you like quotes #10 and #14 since it’s one and the same quote that has been used twice to maximize the effect. After all, the compiler of the list has needed to come up with a list that is as long as possible.

#441,
Dork is worried about ABU’s cover being blown as an anti-Semite….too late. The Protocols is the best seller of any foreign work translated into Arabic in the ME. It sells like “hot cakes”.

Be carefull Dork who you allign yourself with, guys like Abu just love a good anti-Jewish conspiracy,which comes from their alliances with Nazi Germany and then with the Soviets, whoes version of anti-Semitism varies little with its Fascist twin.

Correct Dork,
Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitism, but demonization of Israel……is. Equating the Jewish state of Israel like our FM Tuomija did, is indeed anti-Semitical and denying it displays gross ignorance, or a dark agenda.

Any state in existence has its share of racists, Jordan refuses Jews the right to buy land, while the Saudis refuse Jews passage into the Kingdom. Egypt fosters some of the worst anti-Semitism on the planet, and they’re supposed to be at peace with Israel. If you want to look for racists, the Arab League has them in spades.

O: I absolutely agree that being critical of Israel is not the same as being anti-semite. But my problem with the list was that some of the quotes (such as the weird Jewish banker quote that seems to be taken out of context) are there for anti-semitic effect. Btw. when were you in Israel?

One of the more legitimate quotes that you could stress instead is #21 by Sharon, something that he actually said (unlike the bogus one #12).

That’s something Sharon said to a partisan right-wing crowd (who were to the right of Likud, that was Sharon’s party at that time). But Sharon actually changed his views and while PM of Israel, he evicted many settlers. So some of those people who had taken Sharon’s words as encouragement years earlier were last year up in arms against him. This is also where Israel’s current ruling party, Kadima, comes from, people who had changed their minds about the expansionist policy that some of them had previously supported.

Israeli politicians have by no means at all times supported the view that Sharon quote #21 represents. Sharon himself said that to flirt with the settler vote. He changed his mind, however. Sharon had already previously been evicting settlers from Sinai, which he was probably hoping these later settlers would forget by his saying that rather irresponsible remark.

@444,
whatever. Abu Omar made some cohorent comments, but then fell for this weird list of quotes. I’ve seen enough crap like that not to waste time verifying it (although Helsinkian is tireless as always). Anyway, actions before words, always.

21# also shows the meaning of “disputed territories”, like Kashmir, whose clear ownership is in dispute. What Sharon said was in line with the thinking behind UNSCR 242, which stated implicitly that Israel, through the result of negotiations, would withdraw from territories,[not from all the]but from a portion.

That Sharon didn’t say we will grab it ALL, is commendable, and reflects original Zionist thinking, that the area is big enough for all. A Jewish state along side another Palestinian one, after the Brits renigged and gave the Western half to the Hashmites for Trans-Jordan.

One last thing about the list of quotes. Most of them date to the 1980s or earlier. I usually tend to dismiss all pre-1990s quotes as part of the old baggage that exists on both sides of the conflict. From the beginning of the 1990s, the Israeli government has been doing many concessions and has given many opportunities to the other side to embrace peace. The only quote of relevance today to me is really that Sharon quote from 1998, since that came to haunt him in such a nasty way later on. Quotes number one and two really don’t prove anything, except that the gap between the Israelis and the Palestinians is a huge one to bridge.

But if we compare the statements of the current center-left government of Israel and the Hamas Palestinian Authority on the record this very year, the comparison is a very favorable one to the Israelis.

I actually haven’t been to Israel but I’ve always been interested in this conflict. There certainly are generally anti-Arab Israelis. I remember reading in a Swedish newspaper about Swedish tourists who in the 90s got guided around in Israel by the guy who was Rabin’s would-be assassin. They sure got one kind of impression about the Israeli population.

PM Rabin’s speeches made a big impression on me at the time when he was in office for his second term and Israelis at the time certainly were listening to his appeal to live in peace with the neighboring Palestinians. That’s about how I see the current Israeli government. People who will fight a war when their enemy is being absolutely inflexible but who will not reject the diplomatic option in the future.

Lets take a look at the bigger picture at hand

“(Video) Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against the West”

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184116.php

The documentary is over an hour and includes nice footage of Hezbollah as well as great school videos of little children spouting all sorts of jihad crap.

In a way it is really sad. Abu here is most likely well educated with exposure to the international community. Unfortunately, that is not the profile of your average muslim who is less educated and more likely to believe that the west is simply evil.

Abu,
You have admitted that there are muslim terrorists. While the Israel/Palestine/Lebanon conflict might be everything to you, and understandable so, (just like Kashmir is “the most important part of India” to Indians) the rest of us have bigger problem, such as being concerned about these people you call terrorists. Part of the reason we have to deal with these lunatics be because of the sick and twisted indoctrination they receive in ‘schools’ and mosks. We cannot change that. That can only be done from within the muslim community. Solving the Palestine problem will not solve global jihad. The muslim world is on fire and the rest of us just want to keep it from spreading to our world.

I’m sure that the video that Fred links us to is quite disturbing. Too bad that the actions of the US and Israel in recent years have tended to strengthen the hard-liners’ position in the Muslim world in general, and the Middle East in particular.

It is undoubtedly frightening to hear children “spouting all sorts of jihad crap”. I find all types of heavy-handed political indoctrination of children disturbing – including the loyalty oath to the Stars and Stripes that American children from the age of 6 onward are compelled to recite at the beginning of every school day.

hey lets make this thread 500

Gee, Kimmo equates:

“with liberty and justice for all” with “death to the Infidel”. With guys like Kimmo trying to define the argument, is anyone now surprised that the west is divided on the issue of Islamist fascism?

Kimmo @ 451.. Do not even go there.. I still remember singing this at the Finnish army:

Kotikontujen tienoita tervehtien
tämä laulumme kaikukoon,
yli peltojen, vetten ja tunturien
aina Hangosta Petsamoon.

Sama kaiku on askelten,
kyllä vaistomme tuntee sen,
kuinka kumpujen kätköistä, mullasta maan
isät katsovat poikiaan.

@453
Looks like I struck a nerve. Regardless of the actual content, my objection is mainly to making kids parrot political ideology with words they can’t possibly understand (“And to the republic, where the invisible witches stand…”).

It’s not just the kids. Ever really listen a crowd of patriotic Americans recite the mantra? The sentence intonation and pauses that you hear in any mass reading of the Pledge of Allegiance suggest that most of them don’t have a clue about the syntax.

I remember once visiting some of my friends in East Berlin in the early 1980s. They complained about the constant political indoctrination that their kids were subjected to in the GDR school system. They were quite amazed when I gave them an approximate translation of the content of the P of A, and told them that virtually all US schools require their kids to recite it.

@454
Another reason why I’m glad I was a CO! But at least you guys were old enough to understand the meaning of the words.

“It is undoubtedly frightening to hear children “spouting all sorts of jihad crap”. I find all types of heavy-handed political indoctrination of children disturbing – including the loyalty oath to the Stars and Stripes that American children from the age of 6 onward are compelled to recite at the beginning of every school day.”

It is a pledge of allegiance, not any sort of “heavy-handed political indoctrination” and it is certainly not in any way teaching children that people from other countries are sub-human to the point that a 3 year old talks of how they wish they could kill those they hate.

Only certain people in the US swear to “support and defend the Sonstitution..” such as those who join the military and those who take political office.

American children are not citing the pledge with weapons in their hands either!

Kimmo, I think you are way off on this one! When do you want to give these kids this kind of exposure, education and national identity? If it is not done in schools, then the extremists will take care of the education in their own way, with sad results.

More Lebanese get it right.

HEZBOLLAH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MASSACRE
http://cedarsrevolution.org/content/view/31/9/

Article 28 of the 4th Geneva Convention:

“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”

In other words, if a location is a legitimate military objective, it does not cease being one because civilians are in the vicinity.

@456
I’m sure that those who teach their kids to shout “death to the infidel” also see nothing wrong with their patriotic message. It is certainly chilling and disturbing, whereas “liberty and justice for all” – at least in the context of GW Bush’s USA – is merely a lie.

I am also sufficiently acquainted with the mindset of Middle America to know that putting belligerent jingoistic and militaristic claptrap into the mouths of small children is by no means exceptional in what is blasphemously referred to as “God’s country”. While the content of the P. of A. is not overtly hostile in that sense, it does help reinforce the uglier side of American nationalism, lowering the threshold to all kinds of outrages committed in the name of “freedom”.

Kimmo,

The global problem is ‘sudden jihad syndrome’ by brainwashed muslims, not senseless murders by Americans around the globe. Sure there are are murders in the US, but almost none of them are ideology related. (no need to provide examples of the exceptions to the rule.) You don’t see Republicans and Democrats strapping explosives to their bodies or childrens of Republicans beating up children of Democrats. Nor are our children running around with weapons nor are parents of children gone wrong praising the actions of their children. Any activity of that sort is wholly rejected by our society. Not so in Islam.

As bad as you want to call the brainwashing of Americans and their children, there is no acts of violence to even begin to compare the US with the brainwashing and the sad effects of Muslim children.

Iran has pumped hundreds of millions of dollars along with their racist hate ideology into the Hezbollah infrastructure. What is at work here, is a destructive Islamist ideology that presents
Islamic superiority as the definitive factor in solving all the world’s problems.

Its nihilistic to the teeth, refusing to accept anything less than
a status of complete dominance. We wouldn’t be talking about the disenfranchised poor if we were addressing the Weimar Republic of the 20′s and 30′s, that produced NAZI ideology. We would be attacking the Nazi ideology at its source; bigotry, racism, hatred and supremacy bound together by the lust for control.

To effectively defeat an ideological movement, it must first be defined. Intolerant Islamist supremacy that Hezbollah, Hams and al-Qaida represent, is the scourge of the 21st century, and every
bit as destructive as Fascism and Communism before it, and even more so, because it hides within a religious faith that has over a billion followers.

http://www.geocities.com/a_i_l_i_info/hezbollahnazis2.jpg

Poverty is only a side issue, its the ideology being spread by Jihadists that’s the culprit.

FF: “The global problem is ’sudden jihad syndrome’ by brainwashed muslims, not senseless murders by Americans around the globe. Sure there are are murders in the US, but almost none of them are ideology related. (no need to provide examples of the exceptions to the rule.)”

Well, thanks for relieving me of the obligation of listing those exceptions, as the sheer volume of examples would make it a formidable task!

The phenomenon of violent jihadism is also an exception to the rule in the world of Islam – although the cause is certainly advanced by the behaviour of certain Western countries. And as we have seen, the actions of the emboldened jihadists cause people in other countries to look at Muslims with increasing hostility. Again, it’s a cycle of violence that cannot be stopped by perpetrating more violence.

The style of nationalist indoctrination which prevades US society – kitchy at best, and frightening at worst – is certainly more extreme than anything that I’ve ever witnessed in Europe in my lifetime. In far too many cases it goes beyond a healthy love of one’s country, into the realm of a dangerously naive belief in the inherent virtue of all things American.

The fact that Democrats and Republicans do not usually clash violently with each other is at best a negative virtue. Besides, supporters both of these mainstream American parties tend to share the national self-image of the USA as the centre of the universe.

I have heard both Bush and Kerry – and even Michael Moore refer to the US Preseident as “THE leader of THE free world” – an arrogant and contradictory claim indeed. As a citizen of what I consider a free country, the only leaders I recognise are ones in whose I have been allowed to participate. A country that is led by an outside, leader without their citizens’ consent is, by definition, not free.

Sure, the spectacle of jihadist indoctrination of kids in some Muslim countries is disturbing – even frightening, but so is the common sight of American kids with their GI-Joes, other war toys, and violent video games salivating over the prospect of blowing away “ragheads”, “hajis”, or any of the other popular epithets used to dehumanise whoever is seen as the enemy of the week.

It is of little consequence that such rhetoric is not explicitly included in the Pledge of Allegiance: it still serves to shield Americans from examining their role in the world with much-needed healthy humility.

Kimmo.. Finnish kids play with war toys and video games just as much as American ones do.. And as I said earlier. The nationalistic fevor we are fed in the Finnish army is just as bad or worse than anything American kids ever have to go through. Especially since they do not have conscription. I agree with some of your opinions (cycle of violence must be broken), but I really do not get where you get a lot of your opinions from. Americans are a peaceful bunch, you literally have to fly planes in to their buildings or bomb their bases to get them into war with you.

On 9/11.. A friend called me. I said that someone just made a miscalculation. Because I knew that as peacful as Americans are. They still have the balls of steel and they will hit you back when you hit them.. Unlike Europe..

I have heard both Bush and Kerry – and even Michael Moore refer to the US Preseident as “THE leader of THE free world” – an arrogant and contradictory claim indeed. As a citizen of what I consider a free country, the only leaders I recognise are ones in whose I have been allowed to participate. A country that is led by an outside, leader without their citizens’ consent is, by definition, not free.

The problem is that Europe chooses not to lead. It didn’t lead at all during the Yugoslavian crisis, preferring to wait for the US to do something. Meanwhile 200,000 Yugoslavians died.

And the lack of leadership in this present little “crisis” is palpable. In fact, Finland should be leading now, as it has the presidency of the EU. But pretty much right from the start the Halonen and Tuomioja duo dropped all attempts at leadership in favor of the moral high grounds that disqualify them from being unbiased arbiters.

Most likely that was done on purpose, so that Finland, and Europe, would not have to take on the role of leadership (in the end Halonen and Tuomioja might have realized that Finland might be put into a position where it would be called upon to set an example and send Finnish troops to southern Lebanon). It is easier to bash Israel, do nothing, and criticize the US for not taking action.

And that is exactly what Europe’s been doing: pushing for the US to exhibit leadership in the matter.

@462
Sure, kids in all countries play with toy guns, but the subculture runs much deeper in the United States than here; the Soviet Union is the only place where I have personally seen anything on a comparable scale. It’s true that the Americans don’t have conscription (for now), but patriotic indoctrination on a scale that is unknown in Finland starts in the United States long before the kids are of military age: it’s not just the schools – the private sector and the entertainment industry is knee-deep in it.

As for 9/11, it was certainly no miscalculation on the part of the perpetrators: they were actually quite successful in goading the Americans into showing the world the darker side of the colletive American psyche. By invading Iraq the US has considerably strengthened the hand of radical Islamism, thereby fulfilling the fondest wet dream of Iran’s mullahs. Sure, there were setbacks to the cause in Afghansitan, but even there, al Qaeda and the Taleban are far from defeated.

Kimmo,

In the US, we teach our kids to read, write and count. We also teach them to play with toys and each other. We have war toys and non war toys. The military is not an obvious sight in most of America, except if you happen to live near a military base.

—-

“The phenomenon of violent jihadism is also an exception to the rule in the world of Islam”
– An exception, but it only takes one exception to blow up a metro car.

“although the cause is certainly advanced by the behaviour of certain Western countries.”
– This is flawed thinking. They will use any excuse they want. They blame the US for ALL their problems, including the
“unmarriagability” of their women. The US could wipe Israel off the map for the ‘good of world peace’ but that will not stop the propaganda of hate. Aid to the Muslim world, both humanitarian and military is simply ignored.

“And as we have seen, the actions of the emboldened jihadists cause people in other countries to look at Muslims with increasing hostility. Again, it’s a cycle of violence that cannot be stopped by perpetrating more violence.”
– True. Unfortunately, there are those who do not want peace who make sure that the cycle of violence continues.

“The style of nationalist indoctrination which prevades US society – kitchy at best, and frightening at worst – is certainly more extreme than anything that I’ve ever witnessed in Europe in my lifetime.”
- I am not sure what kind of indoctrination you mean. The pladge of allegiance. Hardly indoctrination. What else? Barbeques? Forth of July celebration. Sports? Most of US pride is inward based. Look at F1 and soccer/football. Two of the worlds most popular sports and neither is followed with much interest in the US. If anything, Finnish society creates people with uniform ideologies. OK, EVERYBODY put out your flag today. EVERYBODY, visit graves today. EVERYBODY watch F1.

“In far too many cases it goes beyond a healthy love of one’s country, into the realm of a dangerously naive belief in the inherent virtue of all things American.”
– Please explain/clarify.
– You can also keep in mind that most Americans never leave their country.
– You can also keep in mind some of the things that go on in the greater world, that the world permits, such as Somolia, North Korean slave state, genocide in Aftrica. Genocide in Kosevo.

Funny, that the US is blamed for all the worlds ills, yet SOMEHOW the country itself is rather peaceful and ‘well-run’ and that is saying something since there are as many guns in the country as people!

#465

yet there are over 11 000 gun related murders in the usa.

safe I tell ya.

per year

And for comparison.

In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United states

I guess we have a different idea of a well-run and safe country

are you guys practising for the third world war back there in the states

Blah,

How about total murders?

Also, not all those murders in the US are done by Americans. We have Europeans here who murder and them flee to the EU to avoid proscecution.

Yes, safe. Most of the handgun murders in the US take place where ownership of handguns is highly regulated or banned outright.

#471

‘How about total murders?’

I’ll have to look it up when I have more time but for now.

A nationwide survey about teenagers attitudes toward guns, conducted in 2003, found that:

39% Number of teens who said they know someone who has been shot
37% of teenagers could get a handgun “if I really wanted to”
27% know of a handgun kept in their house, apartment or car
59% do not believe that “video games can make teenagers violent”
56% do not want armed security guards patrolling their schools
90% do not believe that teachers and principals should be able to “bring handguns to school to protect students”

Source: Teenage Research Unlimited, June 2003

And about that high suicide rate of finns.

16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths).

talk about suicide rates.

And Fred Fry I’m quite certain that the majority of homicides are done by us citizens.

Here’s the total number of homicides in usa

Deaths from Homicide: 16,889 annual deaths in 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001)
Death rate extrapolations for USA for Homicide: 16,889 per year, 1,407 per month, 324 per week, 46 per day, 1 per hour, 0 per minute, 0 per second.

and some more related statistics

Death statistics for Homicide: The following are statistics from various sources about deaths and Homicide:

6.6 per 100,000 males died from homicide using firearms in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
1.3 per 100,000 females died from homicide using firearms in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
7.1 per 100,000 people died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
10.8 per 100,000 men died from homicide in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
21.2 per 100,000 black people died from homicide in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
3.3 per 100,000 women died from homicide in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
4.2 per 100,000 Asian/Pacific Islander people died from homicide in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
4.9 per 100,000 white people died from homicide in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
6.8 per 100,000 American Indian or Alaska Native people died from homicide in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
7.1 per 100,000 people died from homicide in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
8.3 per 100,000 Hispanic/Latino people in USA 2001 (NCHS, 2003)
Homicide death statistics by age in USA:
homicide caused 2.8% of deaths for non-neonate infants in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
homicide caused 7.2% of deaths for age 1-4 years in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
homicide caused 5.4% of deaths for age 5-9 years in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
homicide caused 6.0% of deaths for age 10-14 years in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
homicide caused 15.2% of deaths for age 15-19 years in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
homicide caused 17.2% of deaths for age 20-24 years in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
homicide caused 10.3% of deaths for age 25-34 years in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
homicide caused 3.6% of deaths for age 35-44 years in USA 1999 [NVSR 2001]
10.8 per 100,000 males died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
3.3 per 100,000 females died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
Death statistics by racial and gender groups in the USA:
8.3 per 100,000 Hispanic people died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
12.9 per 100,000 Hispanic males died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
3.1 per 100,000 Hispanic females died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
6.8 per 100,000 non-Hispanic people died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
10.3 per 100,000 non-Hispanic males died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
3.3 per 100,000 non-Hispanic females died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
4 per 100,000 non-Hispanic white people died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
5.6 per 100,000 non-Hispanic white males died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
2.5 per 100,000 non-Hispanic white females died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
21.7 per 100,000 non-Hispanic black people died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
37.2 per 100,000 non-Hispanic black males died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
7.5 per 100,000 non-Hispanic black females died from homicide in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
Per 100,000 people died from homicidal poisoning in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
0.2 per 100,000 people died from homicidal suffocation in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
0.0 per 100,000 people died from a suicidal transport injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
17.5 per 100,000 people died from transport injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
16.4 per 100,000 people died from unintentional transport injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
1.1 per 100,000 people died from homicidal transport injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
4 per 100,000 people died from homicidal firearm injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
0.0 per 100,000 people died from homicidal fire/flame injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
0.1 per 100,000 people died from homicidal fire or hot object/substance injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
0.0 per 100,000 people died from homicidal drowning in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)
0.7 per 100,000 people died from homicidal cutting or piercing injury in the US 2001 (National Vital Statistics Report, CDC, 2003)

I’ll try to find similiar statistics for other countries as well.

but for now I’m watchin Hitchcocks film the birds

I’ll get back to you

are you guys practising for the third world war back there in the states

Of course we are. 9/11 demonstrated that it’s a clear possibility.

Finnpundit

“exactly what Europe’s been doing: pushing for the US to exhibit leadership in the matter.”

Only one country was ever asked:
To fix Kuwait (First Gulf War,)(Saved the muslims’s from each other)
To fix Yugoslavia, (Saved the muslims’s)
To Fix Somalia (muslim on muslim again)
To fix Darfur (Now we started to refuse these kind offers)

And now to fix Lebanon (Now we really start to refuse these very kind offers)

Can anyone predict who will be asked to fix the next world event?

All this nonsense about murders in US is utter bullshit. There are places there where nothing happens, cows graze on the fields and locals are about 10 times nicer than most folks in Finland. Then there are places where drugs have turned nice neighborhoods upside down. Those places are not the norm though. Places like Washington do a lot of damage to the statistics.

But ofcourse the anti American crowd does not talk about the peaceful roads going through green valleys where the farmers are hard at work.

They just want to talk about the negative side of America.

So does that mean we get to talk about the negative sides of all the countries in the world? Can we talk about the boozing and axe murders going on in Finnish families? Can we talk about the worship of suicide bombers in outwardly nice muslim families?

There are few countries in the world that are as great as USA.

All of us in the west owe a lot to USA. It is sad that people tend to brush that notion aside with a wide hand gesture. Worshipping suicide bombers and misguided intellectuals who had fancy utopias that lead into USSR and North Korea.

But hey.. Go on do that. Fuck up Finland and I am outta here. For good this time.

STP

“I am outta here”

Come to the USA, as we have low unemployment (Below 4%), high wages (Average American has over 10,000 dollars to spend every year than an average Finland peasont), and the stock market is buy, buy, buy.

And unless you are a Native American with a Casino in your back yard getting rich, rich, rich, you have good opportunity in our work environment.

“All this nonsense about murders in US is utter bullshit. There are places there where nothing happens, cows graze on the fields and locals are about 10 times nicer than most folks in Finland. Then there are places where drugs have turned nice neighborhoods upside down. Those places are not the norm though. Places like Washington do a lot of damage to the statistics.”

Come on, STP, you MUST be able to do better than that!

Sure, there are places in the United States where there is hardly any violent crime. They are also places where there are hardly any people!

“We have Europeans here who murder and them flee to the EU to avoid proscecution.”

You’ll have to give me a reliable source on that to convince me that such incidents are in any way statistically significant.

“Most of the handgun murders in the US take place where ownership of handguns is highly regulated or banned outright.”

It will take more than your say-so to convince me on that one too. Restrictive gun laws in one place mean little if Saturday night specials are available in a gun shop on the other side of the county line. In what American jurisdiction is gun ownership banned outright?

FF: “The military is not an obvious sight in most of America, except if you happen to live near a military base.”

Oh, come on: recruitment posters, TV commercials, recruiters in high schools, ROTC drills at universities. And there aren’t very many places of any significance in the USA that are very far from a military base.

““The phenomenon of violent jihadism is also an exception to the rule in the world of Islam”
- An exception, but it only takes one exception to blow up a metro car.”

There are also plenty of exceptional people in the United States who cause all kinds of mayhem.

“This is flawed thinking. They will use any excuse they want. They blame the US for ALL their problems…”

And certain actions of the Bushies have given enough credence to their pitch to make recruitment easier – at least within their cultural sphere.

“Unfortunately, there are those who do not want peace who make sure that the cycle of violence continues.”

That goes for the United States as well!

“If anything, Finnish society creates people with uniform ideologies. OK, EVERYBODY put out your flag today. EVERYBODY, visit graves today. EVERYBODY watch F1.”

Funny, I’ve never felt any compulsion to do any of those things.

“Funny, that the US is blamed for all the worlds ills…”

Not by me – but there is plenty of stuff for which the USA really deserves criticism. Among some Americans there is an annoying tendency to become extremely hostile and defensive whenever anyone offers any criticism at all of the status quo within the USA or any aspect of the country’s role in the world.

“And certain actions of the Bushies have given enough credence to their pitch to make recruitment easier – at least within their cultural sphere.”

– What, so they are doing jihad quicker? Kind of like saying that they hate us MORE. Well they wanted us dead before.

– They had no problem filling Afghanistan of recruits before they even heard of George W. I was in Finland for the 2000 election. The reaction was the Same for everyone, he was satin himself. Do you hate him more now? I find that hard to believe because he was seen as a criminal before he ever had the opportunity to do anything. (Now before you go and point out how ‘right’ Europe was about him, I’ll point out that the US is just one more ‘hostile regime’ that Europe did nothing about.)

– This movement cares less who the President in the US is. Look at all the attacks agains the US when Clinton was President.

“Most of the handgun murders in the US take place where ownership of handguns is highly regulated or banned outright.” – “It will take more than your say-so to convince me on that one too. Restrictive gun laws in one place mean little if Saturday night specials are available in a gun shop on the other side of the county line.

– First you just can’t run down to Virginia from NY and buy a gun legally. They will not sell it to you unless you are a Virginia Resident. Long guns are restricted in New York City, but not in the rest of the state. So you can buy a rifle or shotgun on Long Island, provided that your not from the City. They will not even let you touch the thing. Blaming lax gun rules in other states for their gun crimes is bull because these places with more permissive gun ownership do not have the same problems.

– Take Washington, DC. The city is full of guns and gun crime. It is illegal for you to own a handgun in DC (unless you legally owned the gun in 1971.) Right across the state line is Virginia where gun ownership regulations are very liberal. You do not see gun crime as an issue in Virginia.

“In what American jurisdiction is gun ownership banned outright?”
– Washington, DC. You wouldn’t know it from all the gun crime there though.

There is plenty of stuff to blame the USA.

But

When your own house is not inorder, we really take offense.

Examples: Food for oil. The USA was hit hard by you EU guys taking bribes, and then giving the world the Sadam party line.

Yugoslavia. The USA was asked to win your silly little war. We got no credit, just more stabbing in the back.

Peace Keeping; You send peacekeepers to the sunny shores of the Med (Cyprus with suntan oil). The USA gets asked to go to Darfur.

And the latest Lebanon: Only the USA was even considered as the one to stop the war. Can anyone please explain why your own EU Army/Navy/Air is so weak it was not considered?

You have a larger population than the USA and no ability to do anything?

Okay here’s some more statistics for your reading pleasure, hope it doesn’t get caught on phils spam-guard

TEN SAFEST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER MILLION
(1) Slovenia 0.7
(2) Austria 0.9
(3) Sweden 1.8
(4) Switzerland 2.3
(5) Israel 2.3
(6) Hong Kong 2.4
(7) Norway 2.5
(8) Ireland 2.8
(9) Finland 3.7
(10) Singapore 4.3

USA

TEN WORST LARGE CITIES FOR MURDER, 2002 CITY PER 100,000
(1) Washington, DC 45.8
(2) Detroit 42.0
(3) Baltimore 38.3
(4) Memphis 24.7
(5) Chicago 22.2
(6) Philadelphia 19.0
(7) Columbus 18.1
(8) Milwaukee 18.0
(9) Los Angeles 17.5
(10) Dallas 15.8

TEN WORST STATES FOR MURDER, 2003 STATE PER 100,000
(1) Louisiana 13.0
(2) Maryland 9.5
(3) Mississippi 9.3
(4) Nevada 8.8
(5) Arizona 7.9
(6) Georgia 7.6
(7) South Carolina 7.2
(8) California 6.8
(9) Tennessee 6.8
(10) Alabama 6.6

TEN SAFEST LARGE CITIES FOR MURDER, 2002 CITY PER 100,000
(1) Honolulu 2.0
(2) El Paso 2.4
(3) San Jose 3.1
(4) Austin 3.7
(5) San Diego 3.8
(6) Portland 3.9
(7) Seattle 4.5
(8) New York 7.3
(9) San Francisco 7.3
(10) Oklahoma City 8.5

Canada

LARGE CANADIAN CITIES BY HOMICIDE RATE, 1990 CITY PER 100,000
(1) Regina 4.72
(2) Saskatoon 4.39
(3) Sudbury 4.00
(4) Edmonton 3.50
(5) Vancouver 3.45
(6) Montreal 3.40
(7) Winnipeg 3.05
(8) Calgary 2.60
(9) Toronto 1.80
(10) Hamilton 1.70
(11) Halifax 1.25
(12) St. John’s 0.00

Oh and STP stop crying and moaning there’s no need for comments that don’t offer anything to conversation expect bitching and whining.

Oh and about the ten safest countries for murder is a bit iffy, because finland can’t possibly be on 9th position and japan not on the list at all?

but I’ll get back to you on that one and hopefully find some more reliable statistics but I do feel that these are quite accurate but I can be wrong about that.

It’s funny how some people think that the longer the list of data in a post, the more convincing the argument.

I tend to just ignore the data and scroll on down to the next one. The long list works against you, as data are always open to interpretation.

Anyway, it’s no surprise that Finnish anti-American bigots would eventually turn to US bashing, as bigotry is so institutionalized in a regimented society like Finland’s.

sorry to disappoint you there finnpundit but I have no reason to bash united states you do a fine job yourself at that.

and also I’m not finnish so need for your anti-finnish bigotry.

Oh and sorry if all that data is bit too much for your mental abilities but hey thats the real world for ya.

Life ain’t what you read from those neo-con propaganda leaflets neither do we live in the dark ages where all the sufficient knowledge you need was told to you by the church

“It’s funny how some people think that the longer the list of data in a post, the more convincing the argument.”

That’s right. Simplistic one-liners, sweeping generalisations and ad hominem arguments are so much more persuasive than actual facts.

Interesting article in The New York Times, of all places, as it tends to be amongst the chorus calling for a cease fire:

No matter how this conflict is resolved, Iranian officials already see their strategic military strength diminished, said the policy experts, former officials and one official with close ties to the highest levels of government. Even if a cease-fire takes hold, and Hezbollah retains some military ability, a Lebanese public eager for peace may act as a serious check.

Analysts and former government officials said Iran has focused on trying to preserve Hezbollah’s influence and deterrence capability. They said Iran has counseled Hezbollah not to show its full military ability to preserve Israeli uncertainty. That may prove difficult for Hezbollah to agree to, given that it is in the midst of a war, and may lead to a divergence of agendas, analysts and former government officials said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/world/middleeast/30iran.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

It’s amusing to hear an Iranian say that God has made a gift to Israel.

A rather intriguing study of a series of propaganda photographs emanating from Lebanon:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

Yes, the NYT article is interesting. On the one hand, it shows that Hezbollah is not quite the lap dog of Iran that it has been made out to be. On the other hand, it shows that individual Iranian academics feel greater freedom to speak their minds about international affairs than many in the West have imagined.

To avoid any misconeptions, I feel compelled to say that I am no great fan of either the Islamic Republic of Iran, or Hezbollah.

Our friend Omar has been a little lacking in the correct Facts department.

He claims all those dead, are civilians, yet we see photo’s of men dressed like civilians manning weapons.

He claims Israel killed all those kids in Qana. But we see video of the rockets fired, and a account of how the building fell 8 hrs after Israel hit it. Plenty of time to get out, one would say, except if you are removing the arms, and one happens to go off. (Kinda like the Darwin theory here)

Time after time he claims Israel kills people who just happen to be standing near a rocket launcher or attack area. Yet we sorta know, we would not do a stupid thing like that. (Kinda like the Darwin theory here)

And then there is the tired old theory that the USA hates Muslims. Yet he fails to account our supporting Muslims in places like Yugoslavia.

Did someone say USA hates Muslims (except winter over there)? I must have missed that.

STP: “Americans are a peaceful bunch, you literally have to fly planes in to their buildings or bomb their bases to get them into war with you.”

Looks like someone needs a history lesson. What bases did the Vietnamese bomb, for example?

winter: “Maby they were just moving the amo out, and one went off? What a bunch of dumb dead folks.

Darwin at work here guys.”

Dude, you do realize that at least 34 of those “dumb dead folks” are children?

Now, who’s the first to say: “Irrelevant. Those children were supporters of the godless Hezbollah, they deserved to die.”

Pave

The children were put there. Can you guess by who? Then the who fired rockets from that point. Can you guess the who? The who has 8 hrs to get the kids out. Then the who started taking the ammo out. The who dropped one, or one went off.

Darwin award for all the who.

Again, the children can’t be construed as supporters of Hezbollah, but their parents who kept them in the war zone certainly were. I know it’s hard nowadays for Finns to wrap their minds around the concept that civilians in a war zone become the responsibility of the defender (I don’t know why – Finland did an excellent job at civil defense during WW2), – and not the attacker. Suffice it to say that Finns actually wound up believing the Cold War reasoning in Europe that there is a “Third Way” or “Middle Way” in any confrontation between antagonists. This delusion persists today in Finland, as in most other welfare states of Old Europe. Its hold on Europe is quite tenacious, as Europe’s traditional bigotries could never admit that the real death blow to communism came from the American commitment to free-markets and capitalism.

In any case, Israeli families are also being attacked, but the Israelis also have a comprehensive civil defense system, – with bunkers and alarms and drills and all – because they see every live Israeli as a valued asset, regardless of their political persuasion.

Contrast that to Hezbollah which, even though a recipient of hundreds of millions in subsidies from Iran, never bothered to invest in civil defense, though their professed raison d’etre was always the defense of southern Lebanon. And since the birthrate of Shiite Muslims is quite high, to the point that families can only rely on subsidies from Hezbollah to survive, the opportunity to cull the welfare rolls with dead children, while at the same time earning the pity of the world, does seem like killing two birds with one stone.

As we know, Muslims love death more than life; the infidel world, of course, equates a Muslim life with all human life. Obviously, there’s a paradox there that can be exploited, for Hezbollah’s sake.

Thanks for clearing that out winter. Although I believe you actually were glad that those children died. (“So yes, no tears for the kids. The war just ends faster that way.” #363)

The “they don’t care about life anyway, so it’s ok if they die”, was a way of thinking that Americans used to assuage their guilt about Vietnam too.

“And then there is the tired old theory that the USA hates Muslims.”

Well, at least some apologists for US policy seem to.

Finnpundit: “As we know, Muslims love death more than life; the infidel world, of course, equates a Muslim life with all human life. Obviously, there’s a paradox there that can be exploited, for Hezbollah’s sake.”

I remember back in the Cold War days reading an article, which quite seriously put forward the idea that the USA has a brinkmanship advantage over the Soviet Union, because most Americans believe in God and the afterlife, whereas the Soviets don’t. Therefore, as the godless commies see this life as all that there is before the great dirt nap, they are ultimately more likely to blink in a superpower stare-down.

I also recall a speech by Ronald Reagan to a group of fundamentalist Christians, in which he comments made by an actor colleague in the 1950s supporting a hard-line Cold War stance. He talked about how he loved his daughter; at first Ronnie said that he was afraid that he was going to hear some pacifist drivel, and was relieved to hear the speaker say that he would prefer that the daughter she “died now, believing in God, than decades later, when she might not believe in God”.

So a religiously-based nonchalant attitude toward death – their own, and that of millions of others – is not exclusivce to Muslim fanatics. In fact, it is frightening that people who are eagerly awaiting the apocalypse have so much political power in the remaining superpower that they could actually be in a position to help make it happen.

“The who has 8 hrs to get the kids out. Then the who started taking the ammo out. The who dropped one, or one went off.

Darwin award for all the who.”

The Who was behind the Qana deaths? Damn this Middle East stuff is really confusing. First Hezbollah, then Israel and now The Who. I bet Pete Townshend masterminded the whole thing. He’s a sneaky looking guy.

Nonchalant attitude toward death is actually quite typical in all romantic nationalism. Our national poet Runeberg wrote a poem (Soldatgossen) to celebrate a child soldier getting killed in action.

Now death didn’t matter so much even here, say a century or two ago when the country was poor and the demographic structure was totally different. People died young anyway all the time. In 1918 a famous propaganda photo for the white side proudly displays the corpse of fifteen-year-old Onni Kokko, who had run away from his parents to die for the white cause. To them that dead young boy was the biggest hero.

But today Finland and most of the West is different. Israel certainly is different and many seem to bash Israel for having such an excessive regard for the lives of IDF soldiers. Yet I think most of us admire that side at war more who is concerned of the loss of life.

Sure, Hezbollah’s propaganda is about willingly dying for religion. It’s a scary movement, partly because of the religious fanaticism but even if it wouldn’t be for that, some of these terrorist organization show such disregard for reality that it’s really scary.

Sure, poverty among the Shi’a in Lebanon and demographics are a factor here why there is this difference in willingness to risk lives. But Lebanon is not a poor country with no future. Even if the Shi’a population is poorer than most other groups there, the general chance for Lebanon to prosper again was always going to benefit them too.

The one factor that I see as especially worrying is the way Hezbollah (and Hamas in the Palestinian Territory) has combined health care and welfare systems with terrorist indoctrination. In that sense they remind me of the Nazis and the Soviets. They take advantage of the poverty of certain people to brainwash them with an ideology of hate.

To Kimmo I have to say that you can’t be serious in saying that Americans in general have a religiously-based nonchalant attitude toward death. You had to go back to the 1950s to find a quote that suited your purpose, you certainly couldn’t quote George W. Bush on that.

“To Kimmo I have to say that you can’t be serious in saying that Americans in general have a religiously-based nonchalant attitude toward death.”

No, but a politically significant sector of supporters of the Republican party seem to.

“You had to go back to the 1950s to find a quote that suited your purpose.”

Actually, I only had to go back to the 80s, which is when Reagan quoted the 50s speech in one of his own, and indicated that he agreed with the views.

“you certainly couldn’t quote George W. Bush on that.”

He probably has the political savyy to avoid going quite that far, but the religious rhetoric that he uses to justify his disastrous policies is frightening enough.

George W. says he’s not sending US troops to Southern Lebanon:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284520,00.html

Finnpundit wrote: “the Halonen and Tuomioja duo dropped all attempts at leadership in favor of the moral high grounds that disqualify them from being unbiased arbiters” in post 463.
That made me think, so holding the moral high ground makes you biased against immoral actors. Now you tell us. How low do we have to go to qualify as made guys?
But fortunately Finnpudit answered my question in post 494:
“the opportunity to cull the welfare rolls with dead children, while at the same time earning the pity of the world, does seem like killing two birds with one stone”.
In horribly regimented Finland child killers are considered scum and usually have to be kept in isolation in prison, for their own safety. Clearly we have much to learn from Finnpundit.

Goddamn, I don’t believe it!

I actually read every single post on this thread. I must be mad.

you must be, we are all mad here

KGS59 @441

Ben-Gurion had no intention of expelling the Arabs, that is just age old propaganda by the anti-Zionists, and cannot stand the light of day.

KGS59, try to be smarter.

Palestinians are the largest and longest suffering group of refugees in the world. One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 7.2 million Palestinian refugees worldwide.

In Jordan -where I was born and raised- 70% of the total populations are Palestinian refugees.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/index.html
http://www.al-awda.org/index.html

KGS59 @444

Dork is worried about ABU’s cover being blown as an anti-Semite

Arabs are semite as well.
The anti-semitism was born and exercised in Europe and not in the ME!

“In Jordan – where I was born and raised.”

Ah so the arab world has treated you just fine, they make you an outsider in your own country of birth. Great bunch of guys they are.

At least here in the USA we let the Native Americans get very very rich rich rich on casinos.

Abu,
There are so many Palestinian ‘refugees’ worldwide simply because other Arabs states have stood in the way or any attempts to resettle Palestinians out of camps.

Are you counted as one of those 7.2 million?

Surely, you know this Abu. Why is it that there has been no effort to move people out of camps. Why have these camps been around for so long? All to keep pressure concerning right of return. keeping people in camps and not giving them the opportunity to resettle is a crime in itself!

Nice protest pictures of the Helsinki anti-Israel protest. Could it be any more one-sided?

Palestinians are the largest and longest suffering group of refugees in the world. One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 7.2 million Palestinian refugees worldwide.

Palestinians are professional refugees. They like their status as the permanent victim: they get lots of sympathy, massive subsidies from all sorts of donor nations, and the feeling that they’re special.

It would be foolish for them to give up on a scam that has netted them so much. That is why they will never make peace with Israel: they need the conflict to keep up the scam.

Finnpundit: Is it really that cool to live in refugee camps? Are you sure that all Palestinians benefit from a permanent refugee status?

“There are so many Palestinian ‘refugees’ worldwide simply because other Arabs states have stood in the way or any attempts to resettle Palestinians out of camps.”

Sure, the Arab countries probably should have done more to help the Palestinians, but that does not eliminate the fact that the main culprits for their plight are ones who pushed them out of their ancestral homes in the first place.

@511,
it’s such a great scam I think you should be given an opportunity to try it for yourself.

“Sure, the Arab countries probably should have done more to help the Palestinians, but that does not eliminate the fact that the main culprits for their plight are ones who pushed them out of their ancestral homes in the first place.”

- Sure the other parties are guilty too, BUT ITS ISRAEL’s FAULT.

Why is this the answer to everything? This gets us nowhere. How can the poor conditions of refugee camps in other countries be Israel’s fault? That’s idiotic. There is so much money moving around for jihad and fighting Israel that can be put to much better uses. Why not come up with a number and offer it to each refugee/family.

This all goes back to WWII. The whole planet has had to make sacrifices (like those occupied by the soviets) and deal with the after-effects. No different here.

Fred

Just offer all Palestinians the USA Native American model of owning the rights to gambling. They then set up casino halls in all locations. Get very very rich rich rich, and BUY their homes in Israel back.

Its the American way.

Fred

Come to think of it, Japan tried to buy Hawaii, after they got rich rich rich, but we kept upping the land prices and they lost on the downside.

But then again, they at least stopping bombing Hawaii (Well except with money).

“How can the poor conditions of refugee camps in other countries be Israel’s fault? That’s idiotic.”

The poor conditions in the camp may be someone else’s fault, but the fact that the people in them are refugees is because Israel pushed them out of their homes because it needed Lebensraum.

Fred Fry @510

There are so many Palestinian ‘refugees’ worldwide simply because other Arabs states have stood in the way or any attempts to resettle Palestinians out of camps.

There are around 5.5 millions in the ME, 3.5 millions in Jordan alone.

Are you counted as one of those 7.2 million?

Of course, myself, my wife and my two kids who were born in Finland, even though that we are all have Jordanian passports.

Being a refugee does not mean that your are living desperate life in a distressed refugee camp.

There are over 4 million refugees registered in UNRWA -those who expelled in 1967 are not included-

Surely, you know this Abu. Why is it that there has been no effort to move people out of camps. Why have these camps been around for so long? All to keep pressure concerning right of return. keeping people in camps and not giving them the opportunity to resettle is a crime in itself!

There is a UNSCR regarding the refugees, and they MUST return back to their stolen lands, and MUST be compensated for their damages properties.
Only Jordan did accepted them and give them passports, but this was for different reasons other than relocating them in Jordan permanently. This is very complex issue in Jordan, and it pops up every now and then.
Other than Jordan, refugees have not be relocated in any other country because of their refuge.

Finnpundit @511

Palestinians are professional refugees. They like their status as the permanent victim: they get lots of sympathy, massive subsidies from all sorts of donor nations, and the feeling that they’re special.

Would you accept this fabulous status in return of your homeland?

Americans are all refugees.

We just have a different attitude and get rich beyond the worlds wildest dreams that way.

I guess it kinda sucks not having even the Arab world behind you. They all want you out of their countries. Sorta like when my brother visits, I just want him to go home. Even if his home is a dump.

“The poor conditions in the camp may be someone else’s fault, but the fact that the people in them are refugees is because Israel pushed them out of their homes because it needed Lebensraum.”

- You mean the 1967 war. This was a single act many years ago. This compared to the ongoing neglect of the refugees by other nations.

Years worth of neglect in order to use them as tools.

Abu,
At most, you are an ex-refugee.

Wow, 520+ posts and we have gotten nowhere. Phil, here is a subject for RFF.

Sure we have.

We know Omar is a refugee the Arabs wanted out. That sure sucks when your own people don’t want you.

Nice to see the real faces of the so called “liberal leftists” that wish death and destruction for Israel. This whole “master-race” mambo jambo is starting to remind me of another European trend in the late 30s…

Noone in Israel asked for this war, we didn’t do anything to provoke such an attack from Hizballah (Invading Israel, kidnapping 2 soldiers, killing another 8 and 2 more civillians) and we are surely not happily sending our sons to the battle-field. We have no business with Lebanese people and we are not looking to kill any children.

There’s no such thing as a humanitarian war and it’s always tragic when innocent people die. Our army surely did not deliberatly hit a UN post or any civilians for that matter. I find it strange that someone could believe such an odd accusation.

The fact is that most people here want to live in peace with our neighbours and end the deadly circle of violence. It’s very sad to see that you guys are getting such an impression of Israel and Israelis.

This war is a sad thing and is getting out of hand due to amaturish and incompetent leaders on both sides. I just hope its over soon and nobody gets hurt anymore. But for god’s sake… yor racist comments (directed to whoever) don’t show YOU in a better light…

“90% of Hezbollah’s rockets miss or hit nothing, while all of Israel’s rockets hit something. If Hezbollah had better rockets, the civillian death toll on the Israeli side would be huge, and they would be really hurting by now.”

Quote from an Egyptian. I guess they know how war is fought.

Our army surely did not deliberatly hit a UN post or any civilians for that matter. I find it strange that someone could believe such an odd accusation.

What would your army do better than this.
Killing over 860 civilians, the 2nd Qana massacre, total infrastructure destruction, more than 1.2 millions refugees, … what else?

What did your IOF achieve so far in Lebanon?

Abu, it boils down to justification of Hizbollah. A lot of us western people do not believe they had any justification what so ever for kidnapping the 2 isreali soldiers / stockpiling rockets intended to be shot at Israel. You on the other hand do.

Isreal would not have done what it did had Hizbollah shown some restraint. They did not. War broke out. War is ongoing.

There is a saying, if you can not deal with fire. Get out.

If you do not want war, take your peace.

Finland did back in the day. Thanks to that, you can enjoy your refuge here. Had we not. Most likely you would not be here working for IT, enjoying the good life.

Except for all the civilian losses the Israeli army also managed to disable and destroy many of Hizballah troops and their missile launchers. They are speaking of about 200 hundred dead hizballah fighters and that 70% of the Hizballah ammunition was destroyed. So far they have fired around 2000 missiles on northen Israel and noone is sure how much they have left. There are more than 1 million Israelis that have been sitting in bomb shelters for the past 3 weeks.

Hizballah are hiding like cowards in residential areas, storing bombs in apartment buildings and holding an entire country hostage.
Obviously, the initial bombastic goals of the Israeli army will never be met since destroying Hizballah and even disarming it is impossible.

Abu Omar, even though you might find it hard to believe, there are many people in my country that are objecting this war and wold do everything very very differently. And some of them might even be serving in the army.

@523
So if you can claim that you weren’t specifically aiming at innocent civilians, you can keep on killing them with impunity as long as the “actual target” was someone with a gun somewhere in the general area.

I am reminded of a scene in the great western Little Big Man, where the US cavalry basically wiped out an Indian village. Before the attack, the officer in charge of the operation said somewhat lethargically and half-hartedly: “spare the women and children, if possible”.

DeepSouth is right in pointing out that are Israelis who oppose their country’s latest moves in Lebanon:

http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/homepage.asp

Somehow he seems to use this fact as some kind of a moral justification for the atrocities.

Dear Kimmo,

I didn’t justify those actions, but they are far from a deliberate massacre as some suggested here.

I bet it’s hard for you to imagine a situation where you are living in a small place surrounded by people that are looking to harm you. You live in Finland. What would you say if someone would be continuously bombing Lapland? If someone’s only goal in life would be to destroy you?

i would really like to hear what is your suggestion on how this crisis should be ended beside of just pointing a finger and saying what we should not be done?

@Deep South, post 523,
when you kill one of us, what are we supposed to do? Say thank you? Volunteer for the international forces that Olmert still says should occupy Southern Lebanon? Get a grip. If your actions upset the rest of the world, then maybe, just maybe, it might be in your best interests to try to figure out why.
As for racism, please note that you are the first self-designated Israeli on this thread. (‘O’ claims to be Jewish but…) With defenders like Finnpundit and winter, you’re going to get a fairly nasty, indiscriminate argument. Personally I’ll try to be civil to real Israelis and real Jews, but these f*ucking cheerleaders urinating on dead children are another thing. ‘O’ did get out of line with some antisemitic nonsense but Helsinkian (syvä respect) called him on it right away.
As for humanitarian war, of course it does not exist. But this kind of massive air war always kills civilians. That’s what it’s really, really good at. The IDF is not acting any worse than say, the NATO when they bombed Serbia in 1999. That means NATO governments are in no position to criticize you. But I’m not a NATO government and I can say air war stinks and should have been banned before starting any campaign against land mines.
‘We have no business with Lebanese people and we are not looking to kill any children.’
Could you tell that to your Air Force, please? While there’s still some infrastructure standing in Lebanon?

Kimmo, not everything is black and white in life and the only reason you are able to make this separation is because you are living in your care-free European bubble. Some people in this world actually have to worry for there lives every day. In Lebanon AND Israel.

Just because my relatively safe position makes it easy for me to say what I’m saying, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true.

At the risk of making an extremely offensive comparison, I would like to point out that “what would you do if your way of life were being threatened by angry people intent on destroying you?” is the argument that white South Africans kept repeating to justify the policies of their government.

Dork wrote:

“If your actions upset the rest of the world, then maybe, just maybe, it might be in your best interests to try to figure out why.”

You are not speaking with the mouth of rest of the world. World is a big place. There is always a media backlash to pictures of dead children. That is why Hizbollah likes to shoot those rockets from the parking lots of multistory buildings. They are counting on those Israelis shells on killing their own. A lot of us out here in the world understand this.

STP @526

Abu, it boils down to justification of Hizbollah. A lot of us western people do not believe they had any justification what so ever for kidnapping the 2 isreali soldiers / stockpiling rockets intended to be shot at Israel. You on the other hand do.

I don’t see any separation between the Israeli assault in Lebanon and the assault in Gaza.
Both are two items in the American-Israeli agenda to liquidate all sorts of resistance in the middle east for the sake of the “New Middle East”.

Finland did back in the day. Thanks to that, you can enjoy your refuge here. Had we not. Most likely you would not be here working for IT, enjoying the good life.

FTY, I did not enter Finland as a refugee, but as a IT professional.

Kimmo, Except for our human responsibility to not take lives of the innocent we also have the human right to defend ourselves. It’s really really hard to make a clear line to when you cross from one side to the other. needless to say that this can be done only subjectvly and it gets even harder when both sides see themselves as the victims of this war. And both sides are right. Try to convince a mother that just lost her child otherwise.

Abu wrote:

“FTY, I did not enter Finland as a refugee, but as a IT professional.”

Yes, and I was just saying that if Finland had locked itself in a endless urban warfare with Russia, there most likely would be no place here for you to work or live safe in.

Peace Abu.. It is worth more than pride or land. One can build a lot on a little. But you can not build anything on hate.

DeepSouth @527

They are speaking of about 200 hundred dead hizballah fighters and that 70% of the Hizballah ammunition was destroyed.

If your 70% claim is true, then why don’t your IOF just ground attack Lebanon and capture the remaining of Hezbuallah and free the captives???

There are more than 1 million Israelis that have been sitting in bomb shelters for the past 3 weeks.

And there are more than 1.2 millions homeless in Lebanon!

Abu – Are YOU sorry for casualties on the Israeli side? I doubt it.

DeepSouth @530

I bet it’s hard for you to imagine a situation where you are living in a small place surrounded by people that are looking to harm you.

Palestinians don’t want to harm anybody, they just want their rights back:
- the right of return
- share Jerusalem
- free the captives
- demolish the Apartheid Wall
- get out from the occupied lands
In short, Arabs want Israel to implement ALL UNSC resolutions.

Since 1973, there has been NOT a single bullet shot to Israel from Egypt, Jordan or Syria.

i would really like to hear what is your suggestion on how this crisis should be ended beside of just pointing a finger and saying what we should not be done?

Nothing than to implement ALL UN SC resolutions, including those who the WHOLE free nations agree upon except USA.

@STP,
so the Hezbollah should either empty Southern Lebanon of civilians or tell the IDF the exact co-ordinates where they are to be found Very convenient for the IDF, I suppose. But successful guerillas don’t do things like that.
And if the outrage is so very predictable, how about not doing the thing that provokes the outrage?
I’m of course well aware that there are people (including some on this thread) who are quite happy to see dead children on TV. So I’m not claiming to be the rest of the world.

STP @534

You are not speaking with the mouth of rest of the world.

At least there is some kind of agreement in Europe that Israel is a greatest threat to world peace. That was in 2003, well before the events in Lebanon and Gaza:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/isra-n08.shtml

They are counting on those Israelis shells on killing their own. A lot of us out here in the world understand this.

And the support for Hezbuallah is growing and growing among those civilians, despite using them as human shield. Right?

Abu – I could not agree with you more and I would be the first person to say give the palestinians back their land and let them have their own country.

This discussion is not about Palestine though.

Syria might have not physically attacked Israel but they have been funding, helping and backing up every terrorist organization in the middle east that expressed a will to attack Israel. Every single missile that was brought into Lebanon from Iran got there through and with the help of Syria. And I still hope we will have peace with Syria one day.

abu- What about the UN resolution to disarm Hizballah? Or you just leave out the facts that are irrelavant for your argument?

That’s what I call cheap propaganda. Maybe it works on some of the people here but you cannot fool me.

DeepSouth @536

Except for our human responsibility to not take lives of the innocent we also have the human right to defend ourselves.

Hezuallah did not attack Israeli civilians at first.
They captured 2, so why did IOF respond with a massive air strikes and with massacres?
Could not the IOF just enter Lebanon and raid Hezbuallah strongholds, especially that IOF one of the most advanced armies in the world.
Why to bombard the civilian areas?
Why to commit massacres?

Try to convince a mother that just lost her child otherwise.

And try to convince the Lebanese children that they could have some friends in Israel after receiving their gifts
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/extra/Israeli-atrocities.htm

STP @537

Finland had locked itself in a endless urban warfare with Russia, there most likely would be no place here for you to work or live safe in.

Dear STP, I clarified the differences between Finland’s case and Palestine in post #347.

Quoted below for easiness
———————————————-
The case is very diffirent:
- There are 5 million Palestinian refugees living in the refugee camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees
=> How many Finns are still living in refugee camps?

- Israel occupied Jerusalem which is the capital of Palestine.
=> Would you Finns tolerate it if Russia have occupied Helsinki?

- There are more than 10,000 kidnapees in Israeli jails, many of them are there since 1980.
=> Are there any Finns kidnapped by Russia?

- Israel committed more than 100 masscares in Palestine.
http://www.seek-info.com/massacres.htm
Today morning at 1:30 am, they commited the “2nd Qana Massacre”, where 70 civilians were killed, among them 23 kids.
=> How many massacres did Russia commit in Finland?

- Israel besieged the Palestinians in the Aperthied Wall.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3879057.stm
http://thewallofhate.org/
http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/
=> Do you have such a wall around cities in Finland?

- Israel violates 12 UN SC resolutions (not to mention those resolution which were blocked by the US veto. Refer to post #306 of this thred).
http://www.accuracy.org/article.php?articleId=1026
You might remember the SC resolution 1405, where your ex-president Ahtisaari was in charge of the UN fact-finding team, and how -he and his team- were intimidated by Israelis.
This how a well-known Palestinian cartoonist expressed it:
http://www.mahjoob.com/en/archives/view.php?cartoonid=1359
=> How many UN SC are violated by Russia regarding Finland?

I would like to hear your answers to my questions above
———————————————-

Abu- Check the facts again- Hizballah has satrted off with bombing northen Israel while some of them were busy kidnapping and killing the soldeirs that were patroling the border. From OUR side. At that same day they killed 2 civillians that died from direct hits from the missiles Hizballah was launching. So you are either a liar or terribly misinformed. I give you the benefit of doubt.

STP @537

Peace Abu.. It is worth more than pride or land. One can build a lot on a little. But you can not build anything on hate.

Peace, Peace and PEACE!
Palestinians are looking for PEACE, believe me.

PLO signed a peace agreement with Israel in 1992, and what was the result?
=> Mote settlements in the occupied territories, and more desperate life for Palestinians.

Hamas committed itself to a one year truce with Israel, during which there was not a single operation, even in the occupied land. What was the result?
=> over 210 Palestinian civilians were killed in that year

Land for peace?
The Palestinians accepted the UNSCR which gave Israel over 55% of their historical lands. What next?

Every nation is looking to settle down and to prosper, and build for better future. Palestinians are not an exception to that.

On the other hand, powerful states tend to intimidate their neighbors and to threaten the world peace.
The “power of the civilization” vs. the “civilization of power”

DeepSouth @593

Abu – Are YOU sorry for casualties on the Israeli side? I doubt it.

Tow of my aunts are living in Israel with their families.
I feel very sorry and depressed when I see a child crying, and not even suffering and frightened from a rocket attack.
I am sorry for the Jews civilians casualties in Israel, because it was not their mistake, but the mistake of the Zionism.

DeepSouth @544

abu- What about the UN resolution to disarm Hizballah? Or you just leave out the facts that are irrelavant for your argument?

Hizbuallah should comply to the SC resolution as well!
But don’t try to convince me that Hizbuallah must comply to only one SC resolution while Israel is in practical breach of 12 resolutions.

Hizbuallah argument for not complying to the UNSCR 1559 is based on the fact that Israel is a threat to Lebanon unless they implement their share of UNSCRs.

Abu – Israel has withdrawn out of Gaza and now the terrorists are throwing missiles into the Israeli territory that surrounds it. Is this a way to achieve peace? By attacking and and yet again kidnapping and murdering more soldiers in a military base? If you blame Israel for anything at least admit it when you are doing the same. We DO!

50% of the people in Israel do wish for a fresh start and to establish a Palestinian state and finally having some peace in the region. The only thing you are doing is trying to create more hatred and it is people like YOU that are ruining it for the people that REALLY would like to live in peace together. Even if you keep on spreading poison everywhere there will still be peace at the end and you will lose the victim status you are so fanatically trying to maintain. Good luck in life.

Israel has withdrawn out of Gaza

Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was against the “peace roadmap”.
Simply it was one-sided withdrawal without any agreement with Palestinian.
What happing now in Gaza proves that such a one-sided withdrawal without any guarantees will not pay.

Dear friend,
Don’t forget the West Bank, the Apartheid Wall, the Right of Return, and Jerusalem.

there will still be peace at the end and

There is a difference between “Peace” and “Fair Peace“.
Palestinians are looking for the “Fair Peace” that would flourish and sustain through generations.

DeepSouth @551

50% of the people in Israel do wish for a fresh start and to establish a Palestinian state and finally having some peace in the region.

And despite that, they elected twice Ariel Sharon who bears a personal responsibility of Sebra and Shatella massacres. That was in 2001, and despite Sharons crimes in Jenin and Gaza, Palestinians elected “Abu Mazen” as a president in January 2005 whose agenda was to try achieving a peace with Israelis.
At the end, and after a handful of massacres- Palestinians elected Hamas early this year.

So, are you sure about the 50% you claimed?

Abu wrote:

“PLO signed a peace agreement with Israel in 1992, and what was the result?
=> Mote settlements in the occupied territories, and more desperate life for Palestinians.”

Look Abu, there once were Finnish cities like Viipuri and Petsamo. They are not Finnish anymore. Russians are living in those cities. We will never have them back.

Sometimes you have to stop bitching and move on with your life..

STP @554

there once were Finnish cities like Viipuri and Petsamo. They are not Finnish anymore. Russians are living in those cities. We will never have them back.

How much did Russians take from “Historical Finland”?
10%, 20%, 30%??

By the UN Partition Plan in 1974, 55% of the “Historical Palestine” was given to Israelis, even though that Palestinians were around 70% of the population.
In other words, the 30% Jews were given 55% of the land.
Despite that, Palestinians accepted it and are trying to go forward.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

Israel wants to achieve an “Intimidating Peace” and not even “Peace” with Palestinians.

555

Double 555 is 556…

Abu,

Compliance with all the SC Resolutions results in an Israel and a Palestine, right?

“FTY, I did not enter Finland as a refugee, but as a IT professional.”
– Like I said, you are not a refugee and you should not be counted as one nor consider yourself one.

Compliance with all the SC Resolutions results in an Israel and a Palestine, right?

For sure!

you are not a refugee and you should not be counted as one nor consider yourself one.

My legal status according to UN is “Palestinian Refugee”, even though that I have a Jordanina passport -as other refugees in Jordan-.
Being a Palestinian refugee and a Jordanian ,at the same time, does not mean that I don’t belong to Jordan. It means that I have two citizinships, kind of.

“What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?

To hear the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe.”

From the Wash Post of all places.

“When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel “proportionate” attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cinders, and turned the Japanese home islands into rubble and ruin.”

Damm we are good. No French white Flags of surrender here.

actually droping the a-bombs was an act of cowardis.

Damn you are good at white flag of surrender waving, remember vietnam
all those pesky little *jungle monkeys* as you people liked to call them really kicked your ass.

remember vietnam

Yes, you do remember the 14 North Vietnam divisions that invaded the south to take the country by arms.

So just what did you do to stop it? Wave the white flag?

“My legal status according to UN is “Palestinian Refugee”, even though that I have a Jordanina passport -as other refugees in Jordan-.
Being a Palestinian refugee and a Jordanian ,at the same time, does not mean that I don’t belong to Jordan. It means that I have two citizinships, kind of.”
– Does the passport actually state that you are a citizen of Jordan or merely that it is a travel document only?

Where does the UN state permenant refugee status for Palestinians?

“French white flags of surrender” – a sure sign that Winter has run out of any real arguments.

Interesting article by Robert Scheer:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060801_scheer_israel_lebanon/

“Those who mindlessly support Israel, right or wrong, from President Bush on through the cheerleaders in Congress and the media, betray the security of the Jewish state. They are enablers who have encouraged Israel’s dependency on the drug of militarism as a false escape from the difficult accommodations needed to bring peace to the Middle East.”

And

“Israel foolishly jumped at the tempting opportunity presented by Bush, who believes all the complex issues dividing the Middle East can be neatly summarized as the choosing of sides in a playground game called “the post-9/11 war on terror.””

– Does the passport actually state that you are a citizen of Jordan or merely that it is a travel document only?

Yes, I have full constitutional rights in Jordan.
From citizenship point of view, no one can recognize if I’m a “Jordanian of Palestinian origin” or a “native Jordanian”.
However, almost all official papers and applications includes a very important question about the “Parent’s Place of Birth”, which is Palestine for the vast majority of Palestinians, thus why the information about the origin is available when needed.

As you might know, there was two main waves of refuge, the first was after the 1948 war, and the second was after 1967.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Relief_and_Works_Agency_for_Palestine_Refugees_in_the_Near_East

The “48-Palestinians” were expelled from their homelands. Their villages and cities are erased totally from the map and replaced by the Israeli cities.

The case is different for the “67-Palestinians”, who were under the Jordanian rule in West Bank, and under the Egyptian rule in Gaza. After the 1967 war, they moved from West Bank to Jordan, and from Gaza to Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

Despite their full citizenship in Jordan, there are unwritten laws which restrict Palestinians employment in sensitive positions at the army or the intelligence services.
Furthermore, there is a very hard limits on their quota at official universities.
That might be absurd to you, but it happens in a such a way that cities of the Palestinian majority are given less quotas to the universities. That explains the relatively large number of the private universities in Jordan, which is around 20.

Even in the Parliamentary elections, Zarka, which is the 2nd largest city after Amman- is given only 12 out of 110 seats in the Parliament, despite the fact that 25% of populations resides there. Of course that because 95% of the residence are Palestinians.

The relation between Palestinians -who enjoy full citizenship- and Jordan is very complex and it has its roots back to the “Black September War” in 1970 between the PLO and King Hussein. The refugee camps were the battle field for this conflict, which resulted in a mistrust between native Jordanians and Palestinians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Correction to post #561

Compliance with all the SC Resolutions results in an Israel and a Palestine, right?

For sure!

No not “For sure!” , there remains one important issue to achieve the peace; it is the Apartheid Wall.
The UNSC failed to pass a resolution against the Apartheid Wall, because of the USA veto.

The International Court of Justice issued a ruling calling for the barrier to be removed and for Palestinians to be compensated:

“The Court finds that the construction by Israel of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and its associated régime are contrary to international law; it states the legal consequences arising from that illegality”
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF/85255e950050831085255e95004fa9c3/3740e39487a5428a85256ecc005e157a!OpenDocument

In addition to that, the Israeli Supreme Court issued a similar ruling against Israel itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#Israeli_Supreme_Court_decision_of_2004

http://www.machsomwatch.org/
http://www.stopthewall.org/
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13041.htm
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h052103.html
http://www.auphr.org/thewall/

Wow

Omar, I did not think it was that bad. You are discriminated against for jobs, education, and living conditions, in “YOUR HOME COUNTRY”.

What a shame.

Just what grievance’s against Jordan do you have?

Just what grievance’s against your fellow Arabs for this unwaranted discrimination do you have?

Just what UN resolutions has Jordan failed to follow in this total discrimination against your people?

This happens everywhere if you are not a native citizen.

Even here in Finland:
Once I was looking for a research topic for my Master thesis in Helsinki University of Technology. I was delighted when I found an adv. for a very advanced research, but then I was shocked when I read the requirements: “the applicant MUST be a native Finn -both parents must be Finns-”

Well, it was a military research funded by the Finnish army.

Do you call it discrimination?
I don’t.

I’m not saying that there is a discrimination against Palestinians in Jordan; I’m saying that it is understandable, especially if you take into consideration:
- Palestinians are about 70% of the population in Jordan
- The events the “Black September” deepened the mistrust between the natives and the refugees.

Hei,

I wanted to clarify my personal views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict before I leave to my vacation (cheers, no more Abu Omar for 5 weeks).

I am against the Zionism and the State of Israel, and not in any way against the Jews. Almost all Palestinians and Arabs agree on this point.

Jews had lived with our prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) in Medina, and he (PBUH) signed treaties with them.
Islam instructed Muslims to respect and to protect Christians and Jews in the Islamic state.

They enjoyed their living in the Arab world well before the Zionists occupied Palestine.

Below are some links about the Jewish communities in Arab countries:
http://www.haruth.com/JewsBahrain.html
http://www.haruth.com/JewsEgypt.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html
http://www.haruth.com/JewsIraq.html
http://www.haruth.com/JewsTunisia.html

Believe it or not, one of the biggest Hamas supporters is Stanley Cohen who is an American Jew.
He was a guest to one of the Doha Debates on the BBC to defend Hamas. This is the transcript of that debate:
http://www.dohadebates.com/output/page57.asp
http://www.jdo.org/stanley.htm

In addition to that, there are many Jewish organizations against the Zionist state of Israel.
http://www.jatonyc.org/
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.nimn.org/
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Palestinians and most of the Arabs are Semite as Jews are. So, the anti-Semite allegations are void.

Palestinians are not against Jews in any way, they are against Israel.

Their demands do not go beyond the international legitimacy. To achieve peace, Israel must:
- Pull out from the occupied territories: Gaza and West Bank
- The Right of Return
- Jerusalem
- Freedom for captives
- Demolish the Apartheid Wall

The bottom line; Israel must comply to ALL UNSC resolutions, including those blocked by USA unilaterally.

I am really glad for having the chance to discuss with all of you.
Thanks all,
Thanks Phil,

“This happens everywhere if you are not a native citizen?”

huh, but you are a native

Not in the evil USA. Anyone born here, like you were born in Jordan, is automatically a USA citizen, and afforded all rights and privileges.

Also after 5 years Refuges are given the opportunity to become citizens and are NOT discriminated against for jobs, housing…

How can this be “Understandable”. This should be your number 1 outrage. You are in a country, born there and they fully discriminate AGAINST you?

Again how can you even think, you are to have, less privileges, than any other person born in your country of birth?

Again. That evil USA has no requirements for either parents to be born in the USA. You just have to become a citizen.

It just does not happen here.

“”No not “For sure!” , there remains one important issue to achieve the peace; it is the Apartheid Wall. The UNSC failed to pass a resolution against the Apartheid Wall, because of the USA veto. The International Court of Justice issued a ruling calling for the barrier to be removed and for Palestinians to be compensated:”

Omar, the wall will be addressed in due time. Right now it prevents attacks on people even you claim are legitimate targets. As far as I can tell, eventually, you will have two governments up and existing in that area with (eventually) free movement between the two countries. No one can tell how far away that is. There is lots of tough ground to cover before we get there.

Anyway, surely the wall is a much better option than what is currently going on in Lebanon. Makes you wonder, just how did Hezbollah cross into Israel without the UN Observers observing that? It was their only job while there…… There was a fince there. Guess it should have been a wall.

Fred

Omas has a bigger problem. His own country of birth discriminates against him.

This is really sad. Maby a UN resolution can cheer him up?

Qana, update.

The Red Cross, which is no friend of the Israeli State, they only report 28 bodies, (and western media has seen no more than 12) why does the CBC (among others) continue to report the number as 54?

“Anyone born here, like you were born in Jordan, is automatically a USA citizen, and afforded all rights and privileges.” winter, post 573
Yes, that’s the US principle (and the UK and France are like that too). The technical term is ‘jus soli’, law of the soil (IIRC).
But many countries, like Finland, have a different system where it doesn’t matter where you’re born, your citizenship depends on the citizenship of your parents (‘jus sanguinis’, law of the blood).
Both systems have their points, although it’s usually Anglophone liberals that feel that jus sanguinis is horribly racist. Some of them manage to support the Right of Return at the same time…

“Both systems have their points,”

except we also don’t discriminate (Except for president and VP) in any elected office. See Arnold in the state of California for an example.

I feel sorry for all those who have lost good people to the USA, but if a system is fair, you have to understand why they came.

Europe had always been a dark continent with wild antisemitic feeling. No one here is angry for 4,000 missiles shot on Israeli towns. Imagine it was in your place. Hizbulla is hiding between civilians, blame them, it’s about time

“I’m not really all that sure about what this is all about but if your just throwing opinions out their then i would have to say that there should be no war what so ever. I mean that if people could try to understand that the world is not perfect and every one has a right to say what they want and do want they want then we all would be better off. i’m not saying that stealing the air planes and crashing them into the Twin Towers was ok it just why couldn’t we just take out the only peson resonsible for it and leave it alone!! There are some people that got killed for absolutly no reason and when that starts to happen other people will kill for reveng and the war will continue. Now I don’t know about you but, I want this war to be done and over with so that our families can come home and we can continue with our little lives. I mean come on it happened five friking years ago please give it a break all ready. This is just my opinion though you don’t have to say any thing on that subjet or even put this on the comments if you think that ilrelivent to the subject.”

ringtones free

watched the israelis on countless times fire phosphourus rounds and well as intentional fire upon UN posts in shaqra and brashit in lebanon while i served with the un. fired intentionally at myself as well as killing lads we knew while we were peacekeeping there. they should be tried for war crimes against the un and i would forcably tackle anyone who said different. dont make comments on hear say or beliefs but base them on facts! p.s / one person made a comment on lebaneese kidnapping israeli soldiers. your obviously ignorant to the grapes of wrath in the 80s and the DFF who fight on the border for the israelis,
ex irish soldier

Irail is a terrorist natios.Israil is 2nd Hitler.Thousands of Phalsteni and forioners killed by Israili.
Anyways Israil will destroyed by Americans.I mean in Harmageddon America and all muslim countries will destroy Israil.Harmageddon will fought in Megiddo area(located in Israil).
After that war Israil totally destroyed.Russia also defeat.
Now-a-days not only muslim countries are against Israil,Europian countries and 60% Americans also against Israil because too much forioners killed by Israil.Hundreds of Americans also killed in Israil.