Finnish observer killed by Israeli bombs at UN post in Lebanon
From the Guardian…
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan is at the centre of a diplomatic storm after accusing Israel of deliberately bombing a UN observer post in southern Lebanon, killing at least two peacekeepers.
Two peacekeepers were killed and two were feared dead under the rubble of their post in the town of Khiyam, near the eastern sector of the border.
On hearing the news last night, Mr Annan rushed out of a Rome hotel where he had been dining with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Lebanon’s prime minister on the eve of international talks on the Lebanon crisis. He said the Israeli hit on the observer post was “apparently deliberate” and demanded an investigation.
[...]Observers from Canada, China, Austria and Finland were among the dead at the UN post, UN and Lebanese officials said.
Let’s see. The post was “accidentally” shelled 14 times prior to this. Then it took one “accidental” direct hit, after which the medical team that arrived at the rubble was being “accidentally” fired at.
I can understand the Israeli UN ambassador’s outrage over the Secretary General’s suggestion that these might not have been accidents. The nerve!
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:16 am
The Israelis are also suspected of using phosphorous bombs on Lebanon…..
Comment by hfb — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:49 am
The Israelis are also suspected of using phosphorous bombs on Lebanon…..
All for democracy and lasting peace, no doubt.
More car bombs to be expected in Tel Aviv. Keep the circus rollin’.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:58 am
And America lets this happen. Hypocritical shits. Hezbollah might not have clean underpants either but nonetheless… Tough on terrorism my fucking arse. Way to go USA. “Mission accomplished ”
(I note that not all Americans support their administration and will be appalled by these developments, even if they don’t get much space in the media)
Comment by Jansons Fisk — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:19 am
And America lets this happen. Hypocritical shits. Hezbollah might not have clean underpants either but nonetheless…
I like the way Tuomioja put it: Israel seems to be targeting everything but Hezbollah with their “precision strikes”.
Considering that Israel’s actions are just an extension of US foreign policy, this is getting quite interesting. Just the day before Israel’s ambassador to Finland assured in an editorial in HS that Israel strikes only targets that are directly involved in supporting Hezbollah. Kinda wraps up the US-Israeli policy on the UN, doncha think?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:26 am
And America lets this happen. Hypocritical shits.
Yeah, I’m sure the world would just love it if the US got involved militarily.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:30 am
I’m going to ask a stupid question here - What are Israel’s motives behind bombing a UN post on purpose?
Comment by Phil — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:32 am
I have said this before and I say it again; when a war is unleashed, nobody really knows where it will lead. It will sooner or later take an unexpected turn and even the well laid plans go for naught. There is no clean video wargame, no precision bombing, no surgical pin point strikes the way the salesmen and the spinners of the warmongers are trying to convince us to believe. War is a dirty, animalistic excercise with blood and gore dictated by our gave-man mentality combined with the cutting edge killing technology. Somehow we regular folk must wrestle the power from those that are hell bent to rule the world with this vicious circle of violence. They have had free hands now in the Middle East the past half a Century and look where it has taken us! Fuck those bastards!
Comment by Petteri — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:42 am
“I’m going to ask a stupid question here - What are Israel’s motives behind bombing a UN post on purpose? “
I’m sure, according to Israel, a dead observer is a good observer.
Insofar as the US letting it happen… Sure, anything that draws attention away from the debacle in Iraq/Afghanistan is good. Wait for about a year to discover new American atrocities (aerial bombings, etc) during this period of distraction.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:43 am
@Phil,
could be it’s a warning to any and all not to send any troops to the proposed international forces that might end this round of fighting.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:45 am
Israel has accused the UNIFIL in Lebanon of collaborating with Hezbollah. That is their mandate, they have to talk with the local residents. They can’t just ignore them and make progress in the peace process.
This strike cannot be a mistake because they bombed the same place yesterday, and I’m _sure_ that it was made clear to them that it was an UN base.
Comment by sensor — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 11:29 am
Fuck Israel after this I don’t have any symphaty towards them palestinians and all the other arabs can do whatever they please to them.
Although I do know that those ’smart’ bombs are american made so they are bound to hit everything else expect the target like hospitals, schools, UN etc.
So who to blaime US for letting this happen and arming these idiots or the murdering state of Israel who dares to call herself a civilized nation.
sorry for the emotional post I’m just so f’king angry
Comment by O — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 11:56 am
We have to remember that Israel is fighting a “defensive” war. The UN observers must’ve been a serious threat to the security of Israel.
I bet that they’re testing some newkind of weaponry in this conflict, payed by the american military-industrial complex.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 11:59 am
i’m just waiting for winter and his oh-so-clever comments
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 12:16 pm
i’m just waiting for winter and his oh-so-clever comments
I’m waiting for KGS59 and his spin. After all, he’s all about how everything bad about the ME is because of them steenkin’ a-rabs and how Israel wants nothing but to shower the world with peace, love and teddybears. Some teddybear it was that hit that bunker.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 12:22 pm
#12 are you angry because one finn was killed or because you are against the war in general? Do you care about innocent jewish people killed all the time by palestinians?
At least killed finn was not a civil person or a tourist, he was peacekeeper sent to war zone. I don’t think he was sent against his own desire. If Finland send his citizen to war zone, then it’s a problem of Finland.
I’m not trying to justify this accident but death of soldier and civil person during war are two different things.
Comment by Belino — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 12:41 pm
Can anyone find a map of the Blue Stream Pipeline that extends from Russia to Turkey and then onward to Syria and Lebanon?
I ask because a new segment has recently been planned. It is to extend into Israel (from Lebanon, I presume). If we look at the exact route and geography, then maybe it will elucidate the reason for this conflict.
It might also explain why the US quietly approves of Israel’s actions–that is, construction and other energy-related contracts are probably at stake.
Here is a map of the pipeline:
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/images/locations/caspian/map_pipeline_caspian_594×370.gif
Here is a general map of the ME:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middle_east_ref04.jpg
As I mentioned, the pipeline now extends through Syria and Lebanon (although it’s not shown on the map), but now needs to connect with Israel. Does anyone else think that Hezbollah might be standing in Israel’s way of completing the pipeline? Can anyone find a better map?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 12:53 pm
@Belino,
artillery does not fire itself by accident. This was deliberate. By Israeli standards, Finland, China (which has nukes), Canada (and a fourth country I can’t recall now) should bomb Tel Aviv by way of retaliation.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 12:59 pm
#16
Yes I’m angry because a UN officials were killed and yes I am against the war in general but this attack against the UN was the final straw for me. I did care about the innocent israelis that were killed because of ignorant suicide bombers but not anymore.
If hizbollah is a terrorist oganization then what is the State of Israel then.
Modern Israel isn’t any better than fundamentalist muslims. It’s a nation build on religion, driven by religion with similiar type of ideology that the nazis had (master race anyone?)
And it doesn’t matter if the people murdered were tourists, civilians or UN peacekeepers it’s equally bad when the attack is and was (deliberate) (don’t know if I spelled that right but what I mean is -on purpose).
Comment by O — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:00 pm
Sorry that previous link didn’t post correctly. There’s a pipline map on this page. Again, it doesn’t show the Syria and Lebanon sections, nor the planned Israel route.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5352447
Hopefully, this one worked
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
And as prince of dorkness said it with the logic that the US and Israel use Finland and China and others should now bomb the shit out of Tel Aviv
Comment by O — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:02 pm
It is war that is going on there! I think that UN observers should have been called off on that area a great while ago, because it is quite obvious that they can not provide peace on the war-zone since they are only observating peace there. And when militants are using common people as human-shields it is impossible to avoid the innocent victims…
War is insane!
Comment by kbs — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
Bullshit then how come Israel has only managed to kill civilians and only few hizbollah guerrilas with their high-tech-weaponry even hizbollah has managed to kill more iraeli soldiers than Israel hizbollah guerrilas. I do agree that avoiding civilian casualties is hard but deliberate attacks against them that is something I can’t understand
And all this war is hell crap is fucking retarded and if you don’t mind me asking how were they supposed to get out of there when all the road and bridges and any other means of escaping the area was made impossible. And besides it was cearly marked UN post but oh I forgot the evil UN is working alonside with the Hizbollah.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:23 pm
“And besides it was cearly marked UN post but oh I forgot the evil UN is working alonside with the Hizbollah.”
That is what it looks like in the photo, doesn’t it:
Bombing shocks MPs’ aids
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
yep and the source is the candadian jewish news
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
*canadian
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
That is what it looks like in the photo, doesn’t it:
I would have more respect for Israel - and American neocon knuckleheads - if they stated openly their belief that the UN is a terrorist organisation.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
It is war that is going on there! I think that UN observers should have been called off on that area a great while ago,
You just can’t please neocon knuckleheads, can you? If you don’t bomb children, you’re a coward who does nothing for world peace, but you’re supposed to run away the moment some actual fighting takes place.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 1:59 pm
@Fred Fry
Yes, the UN should not work with the people of Lebanon, only with their foreign enemies. It’s a strategy that’s worked brilliantly for the US, the UK and for Israel as well, making them loved and respected all over the Middle East.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
It’s a strategy that’s worked brilliantly for the US, the UK and for Israel as well, making them loved and respected all over the Middle East.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:01 pm
@Anonymous,
if the neocons could only be that honest. Whiners.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:06 pm
Oh what have we here? Finnish antisemites crawling from under every rock when ONE S O L D I E R was killed on a active war zone.
I was not very surprised to hear Tuomioja blasting Israel immediatly with the “they seem to be killing everyone else but the hizullah”..
Well, considering they like to hunker down amongst the civilian population / near UN troops, it is not very surprising that this kind of shit goes down there.
Rip for the dead soldiers, including the 12 Israeli soldiers that just died today..
Oh, did you guys hear that Israel was actually firing at its own troops with a UAV yesterday.. Friendly fire, it happens…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman
Comment by STP — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
Peacekeepers? They sure did their job.
The EU has the gall to critize the USA on Iraq? And this is a good example of your handywork?
Me thinks you all live in a glass house.
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
“but you’re supposed to run away the moment some actual fighting takes place.”
Well….. Thats exactly what you EU guys do……… run
ok… ok.. you do offer free Dental Car
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
Oh what have we here? Finnish antisemites crawling from under every rock when ONE S O L D I E R was killed on a active war zone.
Ok, kudos for being the first knucklehead to wave the antisemitism card.
I was not very surprised to hear Tuomioja blasting Israel immediatly with the “they seem to be killing everyone else but the hizullahâ€Â..
As that’s exactly what they’re doing.
Oh, did you guys hear that Israel was actually firing at its own troops with a UAV yesterday.. Friendly fire, it happens…
How often does it happen 16 times in a row?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:18 pm
@winter,
this is not our handiwork but yours. Your bombs raining down on the Lebanese. Their blood on your hands. And if we only joined you in the slaughter, you’d love us for it. Misery loves company.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
winter:
Peacekeepers? They sure did their job.
Been doing their best since 1948. Of course, being unarmed and not in the business of killing children, their efforts don’t count.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:20 pm
I’m going to ask a stupid question here.. Was Israel attacked first, or was it the other way around?
Did the UN folks help Israel or DID THEY GIVE HELP to Hezbollah? When the 2 Israel’s were taken?
I think you became a target when you HELPED Hezbollah.
Now go home.
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:20 pm
@STP,
remind me again, what did Israel do when some of its soldiers were captured in an active war zone?
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:21 pm
I’m going to ask a stupid question here.. Was Israel attacked first, or was it the other way around?
Israel was definitely the first party to kill civilians in this conflict. Next question.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
Shorter winter: the UN, with black helicopters, helped the Hizbollah to attack Israel and was therefore a legitimate target.
Uh-oh, the UN headquarters is still in New York, making the city a legitimate target. I’d start evacuating now, if I were the DHS.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:23 pm
I’ll tell you one thing, we Americans are gonna sit back and enjoy this mess. Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
# 16, bellino…
What about the children dying in Lebanon, or palestine? Or the unofficial hundred thousands in Iraq….
I cannot justify any behavior of Israel for the fact that this and that many israelis died… As it happens, for every one dead israel, they kill ten. Now talk about justice.
sad thing is, the third world war will start because of that 7 million populated country, who, like a commenter said believes in the “the master race” ideology, forgetting the price the world has paid. And surely walking in the same direction themselves.
No need to say how bad this is, eh?
Israel has to stop shitting all over the world, while the extremist Islamists have to stop playing into their hands… Or the whole humanity will pay…
Comment by a german — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
Uh-oh, the UN headquarters is still in New York, making the city a legitimate target. I’d start evacuating now, if I were the DHS.
Yeh, lez n00k noo y00k in ritalination!
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
Lets go back to WW2. FINLAND was attacked first by Russia.
Finland killed Russian’s including women. Is that not a war defense of a Homeland.
Well do we live in a glass house yet? Or is Finland guilty of a war crime as the UN sec general thinks?
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
I’ll tell you one thing, we Americans are gonna sit back and enjoy this mess. Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.
Yeah, just like the Soviet Union was not directly involved in the Cuban missile crisis.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:26 pm
@winter, post 38:
We are home. Why aren’t you?
@Phil, post 42,
who do you think is rushing in more bombs and ammo to Israel?
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:26 pm
winter:
Lets go back to WW2.
Current events being a bit too much for your tiny brain?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:29 pm
“Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.”
OH but Phil… this is just the start.
The US was asked to go to DARFUR… we declined. Lets all sit back and watch another million folks die there as well.
And its going to happen again, and again. we will be just sitting by….watching
I for one think.. its about time we became the watchers. Now we can blame the UN and the EU for the mess.
Come on EU.. do something
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:29 pm
@45,
can’t figure out what you’re saying. If you mean the prison camps in East Carelia, our bad. A war crime, to be sure. Now let’s see you admit the same about Israeli prison camps for starters, shall we? (Israelis are not even American, just foreigners quite as foreign as the French, remember, so patriotism should not prevent you from admitting facts.)
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:31 pm
Israeli messages to Lebanon (you must visit this link)
http://fromisrael2lebanon.info/
Comment by Abu Omar — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
I’m just saying that the UN observers had no capacity nor the authorization to take part in stopping the war-siccuation. In other words, they were not able to do anything in achieving the peace on that area.
Comment by kbs — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:33 pm
“UN observers had no capacity ”
Thats bull. They could have blocked the road forcing the release of the Israel’s.
Bottom line. You do nothing, and just like in Yugoslovia, when 7,000 folks were frog marched off to a machine gun.
Blood on your hands EU. Blood on your hands.
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:36 pm
This is not the first time for Israel to tagret UN forces.
No one mentioned about a the well-known Qana massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/qana.html
Comment by Abu Omar — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
Did the UN folks help Israel or DID THEY GIVE HELP to Hezbollah? When the 2 Israel’s were taken?
I think you became a target when you HELPED Hezbollah.
Now go home.
What the christ? What on earth makes you think that UNTSO-forces were giving help to the Hezbollah? They are a neutral party observing and reporting possible violations in the area.
That said, I have a hard time believing that this was intentional. The Israelis have nothing to gain from shelling and destroying a UN observation post. My guess is that someone just fucked up big time.
Comment by Gonzo — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:40 pm
winter has intervention so hard-wired into his brain he can’t understand that a war is not the fault of the people who stay out of it. That is, the US can’t be blamed for not joining in the two world wars from day one. Indeed, their attempts to stay clear were quite commendable.
Likewise, it is not the fault of the EU or the UN if Sudan collapses into civil war. (The Brits may have some vestigial blame as they created the bloody place, but even that’s gotta have some statute of limitations.)
And since the only side so far to have fired on us is the Israelis, should we pick our side accordingly, in the event of being dragged into this mess? I know, Americans were happy to forget about the USS Liberty massacre in 1967, but maybe we’re less forgiving.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:43 pm
If this wasn’t an accident - or incompetence rather - what was it? A declaration of war, more or less, on the UN?
Comment by tomia — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:45 pm
If this wasn’t an accident - or incompetence rather - what was it? A declaration of war, more or less, on the UN?
That would be only logical. We know the UN is bad, bad, bad, bad. Evil, I tell you!
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 2:52 pm
“yep and the source is the candadian jewish news”
Would you prefer the LA Times: (Are you suggesting that the story in the picture is fake because of the source? Are you suggesting that some jews crossed that barb wire fence and put the flag there with the UN doing nothing? What kind os news source do you expect from inside Israel?)
“Hezbollah guerrillas were setting up rocket launchers near U.N. positions, (UN) spokesman Milos Strugar said.
Three of the U.N. stations along the border had been hit by Israeli artillery, and the organization was unable to move desperately needed aid convoys onto roads that were coming under heavy bombardment, he said.”
lebanon20jul20,0,4733925,full.story”>Bombs Rain on Bunker in Beirut
.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
#27:
“I would have more respect for Israel - and American neocon knuckleheads - if they stated openly their belief that the UN is a terrorist organisation.”
There is no need to admit nothing if you would take all the facts into account. What is your explanation for this:
“The UN says it would obscure the faces of people in the film suspected of being Hezbollah guerrillas, in order to protect UN staff from retribution.”
The joke is, UN soldiers probably died needlessly now all because the UN would not provide exidence in 2000 of kidnappers then. Is it possible that the kidnappers were the very same people that the UN could have stopped in 2000?
Row grows over UN’s Hezbollah video - BBC 2001
“The Lebanese authorities have slammed a decision by the United Nations to show Israel a controversial video tape related to the abduction of three Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah fighters last October.”
“The film was shot by Indian peacekeepers just a few hours after Hezbollah fighters abducted three Israeli soldiers on the border.
The 30-minute video reportedly shows bloodstained vehicles, forged license plates and bogus UN uniforms believed to have been used by Hezbollah to lure the Israelis.
The Hezbollah movement has also denounced the UN for saying it will hand the video over. (Of Course they would)
Faces hidden - The UN maintains that the film sheds no new light on the circumstances of the abduction. But Israel believes that even now, nine months after the event, the film could give its analysts clues that could help identify who took the men, and where they were taken.
The UN says it would obscure the faces of people in the film suspected of being Hezbollah guerrillas, in order to protect UN staff from retribution.
But Israel is demanding to see the tape unedited, and to question UN soldiers who were there at the time.
UN suspected - On Sunday the Israeli press reported that Israel even suspected UN troops of helping Hezbollah kidnap the soldiers.
The spokesman for the UN’s operations in south Lebanon, Timur Goksel, strongly denied that. He said there was no contact at any time between UN troops and the kidnappers.”
If this is not taking sides, then I do not know what else is. What else did the UN permit Hezbollah to do to protect their peacekeepers?
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:17 pm
So, if the UN is practically the same as Hezbollah, why do we keep getting bullshit from the Israelis how this was all just a mistake?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
“So, if the UN is practically the same as Hezbollah, why do we keep getting bullshit from the Israelis how this was all just a mistake?”
Could it be that they were aiming at Hezbollah and the UN got in the way? Are you really that dense to not understand how these terrorists operate?
The funny thing, all the outrage on this post would be exactly the same if it was a Hezbollah missile that hit the UN post.
It is sad that the UN has basically done nothing to disarm this group other than order that it happen. The UN’s main crime is inaction.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:26 pm
@61,
“I wasn’t even there and I can prove it plus I didn’t do anything and she was asking for it and I know my rights and you’d have done the same thing…”
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
Well this visualization looks proporionate: http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm
Depressing. Glad to see where technology, with all our smart bombs, has got us. Just waiting for the UN’s response to Israel, which will probably go something like in the movie Team America, “…we will be very angry with you… and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.”
Comment by ebi — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
Could it be that they were aiming at Hezbollah and the UN got in the way? Are you really that dense to not understand how these terrorists operate?
Yeah, the observation post popped up from the ground right after the Israeli pilot had fired at that Katyusha launcher. That must be it. Thanks for clearing it up.
The funny thing, all the outrage on this post would be exactly the same if it was a Hezbollah missile that hit the UN post.
So? It wasn’t. Seems that Hezbollah with their outdated Soviet materiel have a better aim than the Israelis with their high-tech American stuff. Unless, of course…
It is sad that the UN has basically done nothing to disarm this group other than order that it happen. The UN’s main crime is inaction.
For the benefit of the knuckleheads in the audience, the UNTSO’s mandate.
Last time I checked, following your mandate as an unarmed observer was not criminal.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:39 pm
who do you think is rushing in more bombs and ammo to Israel?
It’s isn’t our fault if they do bad things with those bombs and ammo.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
On post number 6.
Surely the point was that the US should interveene POLITICALLY, not militarily! That is to say put political pressure on Israel, not send the army over.
Comment by E Maya — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 3:55 pm
“Yeah, the observation post popped up from the ground right after the Israeli pilot had fired at that Katyusha launcher. That must be it. Thanks for clearing it up.”
- You almost got that comment right. It would be more correct like this:
‘Yeah, the Katyusha launcher popped up from the ground next to the UN observation post right before the Israeli pilot had fired at that Katyusha launcher. That must be it. Thanks for clearing it up.’
- Yeah, this sounds more accurate.
“Seems that Hezbollah with their outdated Soviet materiel have a better aim than the Israelis with their high-tech American stuff. Unless, of course…”
- NOBODY other than you is suggesting that Hezbollah is using outdated soviet crap. This stuff is new equipment. So the question is, which countries are arming Hezbollah in violation of UN mandate 1559 calling for the disarming of Hezbollah.
“For the benefit of the knuckleheads in the audience, the UNTSO’s mandate.”
- Thank you for pointing out that the UN mandate for UNIFIL was toothless. The mandate also doe not include COLLUSION with Hezbollah.
Do I really need to point out that it was Hezbollah who attacked US and French peacekeepers killing 299 of them.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:00 pm
E Maya:
“Surely the point was that the US should interveene POLITICALLY, not militarily! That is to say put political pressure on Israel, not send the army over.”
Why should the US do anything? Perhaps they will, but not before Hezbollah is crippled.
ebi,
“Well this visualization looks proporionate: http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm ”
How many of those Lebanese coffins are filled with terrorists?
some of those coffins are filled with the very same people who days earlier celebrated the kidnapping of the two solderiers and the death of eight of their comrades.
Anyway, the only way to make them stop is to make the price to high to participate.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
Hooray! I’m glad to hear a Finnish UN soldier is dead. Serves Finland right to participate with a force that helped Hezbollah kidnap Israeli soldiers in the first place.
The extermination of UN forces is always welcome news.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
@Fred Fry
Do I really need to point out that the US and the French exceeded their peacekeeping mandate in 1982 and became a side in the Lebanese civil war, making them a legitimate target? The Brits and the Italians stuck to their mandate that time; no-one bombed them.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
Hate to break it to you phil but this is not one of those things that you can make a *joke* of
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:07 pm
finnidiot go fuck yourself
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:09 pm
Hooray! I’m glad to hear a Finnish UN soldier is dead. Serves Finland right to participate with a force that helped Hezbollah kidnap Israeli soldiers in the first place.
It would be very welcome to hear honest comments like this from the Israelis and other neocons. So far we’ve been getting pure, genuine Texas bullshit.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
@Fred Fry,
since when is the capture of combat troops kidnapping, BTW?
I suppose since you stopped recognizing the category of POW. And of course, terrorism, if it means anything at all, means violence directed against civilians in order to terrorise a nation or similar community. Which is what the ongoing Israeli terror bombings are all about.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:13 pm
“@Fred Fry
Do I really need to point out that the US and the French exceeded their peacekeeping mandate in 1982 and became a side in the Lebanese civil war, making them a legitimate target? The Brits and the Italians stuck to their mandate that time; no-one bombed them.”
- And a perfect reason for them not to get involved this time. Thank you for excusing away acts of terror. We all know how terrorists follow mandates, like 1559 calling for Hezbollah to disarm itself. That was mandated two years ago.
I belive that Finland is ignoring a mandate to rid itself of anti-personell mines. Why would they do that?
Everyone is so concerned that the US is arming Israel. Who is arming Hezbollah? You know you can’t but 120mm rockets in a gun shop, not even in the US!
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:16 pm
Yeah, the Katyusha launcher popped up from the ground next to the UN observation post
…
- NOBODY other than you is suggesting that Hezbollah is using outdated soviet crap. This stuff is new equipment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha
New equipment indeed, in the knucklehead universe.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:16 pm
I’ve never read such rubbish about the UN helping Hezbollah to kidnap Israeli soldiers. It’s quite sickening to read in the aftermath of innocent UN observers being killed in a clearly designated UN facility.
I think Erkki Tuomioja’s remarks that Israel’s targeted strikes seems to be hitting everything except for Hezbollah were very apt.
The fact that some people can condone such widespread and totally pointless loss of civilian life in Libanon is to me inhuman.
Israel has a right to reasonable defence. But what it is doing is completely disproportionate and sickening. It will just lead to more Arabs sympathising with the terrorist groups against Israel. It will just lead to even more escalation in the pointless cycle of killing of innocents.
The USA could do something about this. It has tremendous leverage on Israel. But instead, it chooses to rush over to them more arms and refuses to call for a ceasefire.
Comment by JG — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
I’ll tell you one thing, we Americans are gonna sit back and enjoy this mess. Finally it’s a military conflict we’re not directly involved in.
Phil, you’re right on. I’ve been enjoying this war immensely. As soon as it began, I started tracking the stock market, and bought some mutual funds, as the market reacted with predictable jitters and became artificially undervalued. I’ve been eyeing an opportunity to buy Fidelity Canada, which is always a good buy for oil and commodities; finally, I got some.
As to the war, it’s an example of “The-Hour-of-Europe-Has-Come-It’s-Time-To-Negotiate-For-A-Few-Weeks”.
Europe has a real opportunity to step up to the plate, and they know it. But, just like Yugoslavia in 1992 (when the term “Hour Of Europe” was coined) all of them seem to be waiting for… US leadership.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:23 pm
“Thank you for excusing acts of terror.” Fred Fry
You’re welcome, but I did no such thing, unless you redefine terror to include all attacks on all military targets, which might be a consistent position, of course. And yes, when USS New Jersey drops 16 inch shells on Lebanese Muslims forces, the Muslim forces in question can consider US forces to be at war with them.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:27 pm
Finnpundit:
Phil, you’re right on. I’ve been enjoying this war immensely.
In case you missed it, post 51 contains a link to some images that’ll probably heighten your pleasure. HTH.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:27 pm
‘Europe has a real opportunity to step up to the plate, and they know it. But, just like Yugoslavia in 1992 (when the term “Hour Of Europe†was coined) all of them seem to be waiting for… US leadership.’
Javier Solana visited Israel very quickly after the start of the war, as did several EU foreign ministers. But it is USA that is the country that supplies them with financial and military aid. The USA has the influence over Israel to stop its actions. In fact, you could easily argue that the USA is indirectly responsible for the crisis continuing so long through its refusal to use its influence on Israel.
I do agree though, EU/Europe should be tougher against Israel. We should suspend interaction with them in the EU neighbourhood policy as a clear political message that human rights violations are unacceptable and we will not stand-by and listened to them to be excused as “reasonable self-defence” when this is clearly not the case.
Comment by JG — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:30 pm
Well, the funny thing is Israel believes that Hezbollah shouldn’t exist because it’s sole purpose is to destroy Israel.
Hezbollah believes Israel shouldn’t exist because it’s Israel.
Can you now see why the fighting isn’t going to stop and how innocent bystandards are going to be killed by both sides?
Comment by Sam — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
@Sam, post 83
Now that’s a not unreasonable position, but I’m fairly certain the Hezbollah knows it cannot destroy Israel (only the Israelis can) and I sort of hope the Israelis will realize the same thing about their neighbours. I mean, they invaded Lebanon in 1982 and managed to replace the rather inept PLO with the Hezbollah. The broke the PLO and got Hamas. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:37 pm
JG, I’ve got news for you. Europe provides financial and military aid to Israel, too, especially Germany.
But in either case, why should the US want Israelis to stop, when Hesbollah are enemies of the US, too? The idea is to kill the enemy, and their collaborators. If you don’t want to go to war, don’t support those who do.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
“New equipment indeed, in the knucklehead universe.”
Lets just say your right, does Soviet equipement not kill?
(what about those AK-47s? Soviet technology, right?)
However, you are wrong: (and name calling doesn’t say much about you.)
“Among the nations to acquire these rockets were several Middle Eastern countries like Iran, Syria, and Egypt that used the weapons against Israel during the Six Day War of 1967. Iran, in particular, began building its own copies of the Soviet Katyusha as well as improved models and supplied many thousands of these to terrorist groups for attacks against Israel. Once manufactured in Iran, the rockets were transported through Syria to militants in Lebanon. Attacks began in earnest during the 1980s when Hezbollah, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), and other groups launched hundreds of rockets into northern Israel. The attacks eventually led Israel to invade Lebanon to push the terrorist groups north and out of range of Israeli towns.”
“Once Israel completed its withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah again reoccupied positions along the border to fire rockets south. The organization has also continued to receive a variety of more advanced rockets of greater range and destructive power from its sponsors in Iran. Though exact details are sketchy, it is believed that Hezbollah’s stockpile includes older Katyusha rockets, known as the Arash in Iran, with a range of 12 miles (20 km) as well as improved third-generation rockets that can travel up to 50 miles (80 km). These improved models may include the Iranian 240-mm Fajr-3 with a 100-lb (45-kg) warhead and a range of 25 miles (40 km), the 333-mm Fajr-5 carrying a 200-lb (90-kg) warhead up to 45 miles (75 km), and the 333-mm Shahin-1 and Shahin-2 that can carry a 420-lb (190-kg) warhead over distances of 8 miles (13 km) and 12 miles (20 km), respectively. Iran has also apparently supplied Hezbollah with the very large Zelzal-2 rocket that can loft a 1,300-lb (600-kg) warhead as much as 125 miles (200 kg) bringing even cities in central and southern Israel within range of rocket attacks from Lebanon.”
Katyusha & Qassam Rockets
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:41 pm
#51
looks like a new generation of fuckups is growing in Israel.
It just gives me ‘great joy’ to see those girls writing those messages to the children of Lebanon.
Comment by O — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:43 pm
#39 pod
“remind me again, what did Israel do when some of its soldiers were captured in an active war zone”
This is a lie. Two members of the IDF were abducted after the patrol was ambushed by Hezbollah in Shtulah just inside the Israeli border. It was not an “active war zone” nor was there a declared war. Hezbollah instigated the whole thing, but as they state clearly their aims are to destroy Israel why do people want to defend them?
Despite what the Jew haters here think, this all could have been avoided if the 2 soldiers were returned. Lebananon is incabable, or not willing, of stopping Hezbollah using their southern border as a base of operations. There are reaping the whirlwind for their failure to confront the problem (not that murdering Israilis is considered a “problem” to some).
Comment by Buckeye Abroad — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
@85,
‘Why should the US want the Israelis to stop’ - how about, because they’re not doing very well?
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:45 pm
post #88 Yeah I admit it I’m a jew hater also I’m a nazi hater, muslim hater, christian hater etc. etc.
I hate all violent ideologies especially the master race type of ideology
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
“This is a lie. Two members of the IDF were abducted after the patrol was ambushed by Hezbollah in Shtulah just inside the Israeli border. It was not an “active war zone†nor was there a declared war. Hezbollah instigated the whole thing, but as they state clearly their aims are to destroy Israel why do people want to defend them?”
Also remember that Hezbollah killed 8 to capture the two, and this happened right near a UN outpost.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
#91
well did the hizbollah bomb the UN post?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
@88,
remind me, when did Israel make peace with either Lebanon or Hezbollah? The Hezb are heroes to many, maybe most Lebanese for driving the Israelis out of Southern Lebanon. The Israelis left unilaterally. There was no peace made.
And of course, the Lebanese could say, if Israel gave us Sheba Farms and the kidnapped Lebanese they are holding and perhaps (if it’s not too much to ask) stopped financing terrorist groups in Lebanon, this could also have been avoided.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:52 pm
#51 + #87
That picture was taken pretty well out of context, it’s explained in the following link (or click my name).
http://ontheface.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/7/20/2142505.html
@89
At the moment, you’re probably right. But Israel still doesn’t have much alternative. Negotiations and Cease fire if they work, will only be temporary and peace keepers have been tried before, but the US is skeptical because last time we had Peace Keepers in Beruit they couldn’t do anything and then they had their Barracks were blown up.
If Hezbollah can really be disarmed and Lebanon Government made soverign, that might be the only real solution… but I probably sound like an Israeli spokesperson saying this.
Comment by Sam — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:55 pm
Israel is doing very well, indeed. This was quick thinking on the part of Olmert, to realize that not only was it necessary to stand firm on Hezbollah’s kidnapping, but also to see the opportunity to strike a wider blow against Hezbollah.
But in any case, there is a second “war”, the European war against Israel and the US. This one is definitely going well for Israel/US, as Europeans once again demonstrate their weakness and irrelevancy in attempting to do something about the crisis. The decades of anti-semitic indoctrination in Europe is taking its toll, and gets paid back in lack of influence and sway on the international stage.
Every dead UN soldier is a victory in this struggle. The UN remains one of the most corrupt organizations in the world, exemplifying the kind of politics Europeans themselves emulate. So hopefully we will see more UN casualties, and if they be Finnish ones, so much the better.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
Lets just say your right, does Soviet equipement not kill?
A good hit to the head with a club will definitely kill (except perhaps a particularly thick-skulled knucklehead), but clubs are a little bit outdated in modern warfare nonetheless. As are rocket launchers from the 1930s that are known to be inaccurate.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
@Fred Fry (#69)
A lot less than innocent women and children for sure. Yes Isreal have a right to defend themselves, but I feel they have taken it way too far when so many innocent people are killed. Yes those cowardly Hezbollah are hiding among civilans, but I doesnt accept that as an excuse. If Israel are after Hezbollah, they should go after Hezbollah, not just bomb the shit out of Lebanon. Seems to me like Israel just don’t care about collateral damage, but im sure the new breed of terrorists will clear that up for them.
Comment by ebi — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:01 pm
Lets say a terrorist organization would be shooting rockets from Haaparanta (sweden) to Tornio and the swedes were not doing anything about it. Lets say they were shooting these rockets from next to a UN post with 4 guys inside it.
What would a Finnish military commander do?
It is a damned if you do, damned if you do not kind of a situation.
Comment by STP — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:02 pm
Finnpundit do you enjoy masturbating over dead peacekeepers and especially over finnish peacekeepers?
are you sociopath or simply just retarded although that would be insulting to the retards and psychopaths because you’re clearly beneath them.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:04 pm
I feel they have taken it way too far when so many innocent people are killed. Yes those cowardly Hezbollah are hiding among civilans, but I doesnt accept that as an excuse.
Such civilians become the responsibility of combatants using them as human shields. It is Hezbollah that commits the crime, not Israel, in this case.
However, the part of southern Lebanon where most of the attacks take place is populated by Shiite Muslims who actively support and vote for Hezbollah, thus becoming their collaborationists. And, if you vote for parties that want war (as Hamas and Hezbollah do) don’t be surprised if you get yourself into a war.
The parents of those children should be ashamed for subjecting their children to this carnage.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:08 pm
This is a lie. Two members of the IDF were abducted after the patrol was ambushed by Hezbollah in Shtulah just inside the Israeli border. It was not an “active war zone†nor was there a declared war.
Oh, there is a declared war now? Sorry, I missed the declaration of war.
Hezbollah instigated the whole thing, but as they state clearly their aims are to destroy Israel why do people want to defend them?
I do not defend Hezbollah, on the contrary, I wish that Israel would occasionally strike them instead of butchering innocents.
Despite what the Jew haters here think
I’m not a Jew-hater, I’m just not a childkiller like you.
this all could have been avoided if the 2 soldiers were returned.
Israel officially denies that their operation is directly linked with the abduction of two soldiers. But anything goes in the knucklehead universe.
(not that murdering Israilis is considered a “problem†to some).
Or the murder of Lebanese civilians or UN observers. Look at Finnpundit, he’s getting off like a spidermonkey.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:09 pm
you should be ashamed of yourself, finnpundit
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:09 pm
Ebi,
If you are concerned about the ‘children’ there are 10s of thousands dying and being killed in North Korea without a care or concern from the west.
Anyway, Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties where Hezbollah is trying to maximize them.
“A good hit to the head with a club will definitely kill (except perhaps a particularly thick-skulled knucklehead), but clubs are a little bit outdated in modern warfare nonetheless. As are rocket launchers from the 1930s that are known to be inaccurate.”
- It is those inaccurate rockets that are killing people in Israel. would you feel safe know that they were aiming inaccurate rockets at the city you were living in? (your too afraid to even post your name. How brave are our words!)
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
is fred fry your real name
Comment by yep I'm a coward — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
@103,
and your evidence that Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties?
Of course, the HB is using weapons mainly so crude they can’t aim them with any precision. Using them to bombard Israel is wrong. I’m not in the business of defending anyone’s crimes.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:18 pm
Prince of Dorkness - “Americans were happy to forget about the USS Liberty massacre in 1967, but maybe we’re less forgiving.”
Well, it wasn’t declassified until very recently and most Americans have never heard of Israel firing upon the NSA eavesdropping ship known as the USS Liberty. It was classified since the guys on that ship knew that Israel started the 6-day war and that even the then General Sharon was personally involved with point-blank execution-style massacres of surrendering Egyptians as that was what they were listening to just before the Israelis attacked their ship. The Israelis even have bits of the torpedo ship that attacked the Liberty in a museum as a much revered object of military might. 34 Americans died in that attack that Israel claimed was a mistake for a rusty old Egyptian boat that never left port during the conflict.
Read Bamford’s book on the NSA for a rather long and detailed account of the attack and the follow-up but….it reads just like the same old play book Israel has used for years.
Personally, I keep hoping aliens come down and terraform the whole region leaving nothing to fight over and noone to fight.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
@100,
and the difference between Finnpundit’s views on how the Lebanese deserve all they get and Ward Churchill’s notorious ‘Little Eichmanns’ statement about how some of the people in the Twin Towers deserved it, is precisely what?
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:22 pm
Nobody goes out and targets kids deliberately (well, almost nobody: we can leave the Chechens out), and it is the responsibility of adults to get kids out of harms way. But Hezbollah is definitely using the children of Shiite families in southern Lebanon as a tactical tool in this war.
I think it’s hard for us westerners to comprehend that, but it points to the predominance of clan-thinking in Arabic cultures: as long as the kids are not from my family (suku), then I don’t see the problem.
It is this kind of thinking that, also, devalues Muslim lives. In fact, we could say that Muslim lives are not as important, simply because Muslims are so willing to part with life. A true multiculturalist would have to respect that, odious as that may be.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:23 pm
@105
Proof that they’re trying to avoid civilian casulties? They’re not just carpet bombing, leveling or using atom bombs on southern Lebanon. A ginormous nuclear warhead would probably be the easiest way to destroy Hezbollah. (Tongue in Cheek!)
Comment by Sam — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
10 friggin times they warned Israelis about the UN post. This is no accident, more like deliberate murder.
Comment by tim73 — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
@109,
‘My client only killed two people when he had the ammunition to kill many, many more. Obviously he is innocent of all charges.’
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:26 pm
I remember Finnpundit whining a while back how some persons in Finland allegedly made bad remarks of the people who died on 9/11. Is this your way to get revenge or what? I find your death wishes for the Finnish peace keepers in very bad taste.
Comment by mh — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
It’s somewhat nauseating, though not that surprising, to see that Finnpundit get’s his cum spurting over peacekeeper corpses. I always suspected him to be somekind of vile and loathsome, inhuman creature, but even for him this a new low.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:29 pm
No Äboy we are just bigots for critisizing usa and israel but it’s okay to masturbate over dead finnish peacekeepers, it’s normal isn’t it?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
@111, Yep, that’s the joke. Also bravo on @107, A+
Comment by Sam — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:34 pm
110. I certainly hope that it wasn’t an accident. That would have been lame, indeed. The UN forces actively collaborated with the Hezbollah: therefore, they were a legitimate target.
Pity the poor dumb Finn who got killed, though: he probably was naive enough not to know about the bribery that was going on between the UN forces and Hezbollah, given Finns’ well-known penchant for honesty and idealism. But that’s what happens when you support the UN with your eyes wide shut.
Any more dumb Finns out there ready to be killed? Let’s hope so. It’s the naive ones, in the end, that provide the cover for the corruption.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:34 pm
#42 You Americans sat back, enjoyed and delivered weapons to our enemy in 1939-40 too. In ‘Raatteen tie’ is buried 20.000 attackers. I am not going to mention which religion they represented.
Comment by jormanen — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:34 pm
Well, as any army is practically a hell of a big government office with the guns, it wouldn’t surprise me, if this really was an accident, but as the participants in the Middle-Eastern crisis generally don’t show any decency, it could be anything. Israel says (at least), it OK’s some kind of international force in the South-Lebanon, so this could be also an attempt to manipulate the outcome, i.e. the composition and mandate of this force. Obviously, they don’t want the UN-style operation there, but somebody else to take the scheisse instead of their own army.
And for the (10^15)th time, criticizing Israel doesn’t make you a jew hater, although their PR people are happy to have everybody to believe so.
In general, I think the tragedy of the Middle-East is that they have plenty of clever tacticians on all sides, but not a single clever strategist, who would not be blinded by the urge to exhibit their balls to everyone not willing to see. If they had, they wouldn’t have been in this most recent scheisse for the last 60 years, but flourishing while milking the rest of the world with their oil, some damn Jesus themeparks and high-tech products. But nooo, these guys can only devise a clever plan to survive ’til tomorrow and pull that stunt again in tomorrow ad infinitum. If they could choose having one candy right now or a box of candy after five minutes, they would steal the box and have some policeman they know to arrange them out of it.
I think Mr. Finnpundit’s reach for our buttons is showing a bit too well today. But as was demonstrated, even the UN missions are not always just cold drinks by the pool and sun lotion, perhaps with a picture of tower on the tube.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:36 pm
yeah finnpundit way to go.
I pesonally enjoy and masturbate everytime americans get killed those poor idiots deserved it. Oh and how I remember the day when the twin towers fell I came like a jetplane oh good days
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:42 pm
#70 So we are even Finnpundit. I am glad to hear your illiterate torturing soldiers killed. We are not on the same side and have never been.
Comment by jormanen — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:44 pm
Pity the poor dumb Finn who got killed, though: he probably was naive enough not to know about the bribery that was going on between the UN forces and Hezbollah, given Finns’ well-known penchant for honesty and idealism.
What a surprising concession. “Finnish honesty” isn’t a myth, after all, according to Finnpundit.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:46 pm
We are not on the same side and have never been.
That’s been my thesis for quite some time. The welfare states of Europe are the de facto enemies of the US.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
@hfb, post 106,
in the meantime, waiting for the aliens, I suppose it’s better to have Israel inside your tent, pissing out rather than the other way around.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:51 pm
#51 Abu
Nice agit-prop. Kids were bored of sitting in bombshelters for 5 days and were egged on by foreign photographers to write on the 155mm shells to get the shot.
http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2006/07/how_to_demonize.html
#101
“Oh, there is a declared war now? Sorry, I missed the declaration of war.”
Your reading skills need improvement. Go back and read up.
“I do not defend Hezbollah, on the contrary, I wish that Israel would occasionally strike them instead of butchering innocents.”
What makes you think they are not striking Hezbollah? IDF reports they are being shot out from mosques, schools and hospitals. May sound strange, but I’ve heard the same from US vets in Iraq. Civilians make great shields and when their dead, great propaganda. Look how much its got your panties in a twist. SOP for terror groups, but the IDF and US Army do the best they can with the realities they face on the ground, not your armchair.
“… I’m just not a childkiller like you.”
No, I never had an abortion.
“Israel officially denies that their operation is directly linked with the abduction of two soldiers. But anything goes in the knucklehead universe.”
Proof?
Do you weep as much for all the innocent people Hezbollah murdered over the years or just “Lebanese civilians and UN observers” allegedly killed by the IDF? This all begins and ends with Hezbollah and their supporters. Actions - consequences.
Comment by Buckeye Abroad — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
I start to agree with Finnpundit in that he and his kind are an enemy of every decent people living in Europe as well as in the USA and everywhere else on this planet. Perhaps we should indeed start to act accordingly.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
Finnpundit: is jormanen a welfare state supporter? I though he was your fellow right-winger or at least a moderate conservative.
Boy am I glad the IDF doesn’t consist of a bunch of Finnpundits. If they did, all of our peacekeepers would get ambushed without any provocation of their own.
Finnpundit, if you really wish a war between Europe and the US, you’re probably with the Hezbollah. A transatlantic rift is neither in the US nor in the EU interests, nor is it in Israeli or Lebanese interests.
You say Hezbollah doesn’t give much about human life. Yeah, you know what, they don’t but even they seem to care more than you do. You also seem to think that since none of your family are peacekeepers, they might as well die. What have you been smoking today?
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
From Guardian:
Annan: Israel bombed UN base for hours
…
“But the shelling started in the morning and went on until after 7pm. You cannot imagine the anguish of the unarmed men and women peacekeepers who were there.”
According to a detailed timeline of the incident provided by an unidentified UN officer and reported by CNN, the first bomb exploded around 200 metres from the post at 1.20pm (11.20am BST) yesterday.
Unifil observers then telephoned their designated contact with the Israeli military, who assured them the attacks would stop. In the following hours, nine more bombs fell close to the post, each one followed by a call to the Israeli military, the UN officer said.
The main Unifil base in the town of Naqoura lost contact with the post at 7.40pm, seemingly the time when the post received a direct hit…..”
What a bumbling idiots these Israeli “soldiers” really are…
Comment by tim73 — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:04 pm
118. Israel says (at least), it OK’s some kind of international force in the South-Lebanon, so this could be also an attempt to manipulate the outcome, i.e. the composition and mandate of this force. Obviously, they don’t want the UN-style operation there, but somebody else to take the scheisse instead of their own army.
Antti, your analysis seems quite apt. Israel needs to send the message that the UN cannot be a part of the solution, given its corruption. But Israel did surprise a lot of Europeans for welcoming some sort of international force along its borders. If such a force becomes a reality, it is necessary to demonstrate in advance the price of collaboration.
This is, indeed, “The Hour of Europe”. Europeans have many times offered their troops as buffers; will they do it now?
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:06 pm
jormanen: sorry if I assumed that you’re not a welfare state supporter. After all, I guess in Finland some kind of a welfare state is almost universally supported by conservatives, not least by moderate ones. Finnpundit is just so extreme I don’t know how to respond to him today. He’s floating far out there, man.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:08 pm
@124,
I’m done weeping (too much history reading), but still get annoyed by lies, doublethink and BS.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:11 pm
Finnpundit is just so extreme I don’t know how to respond to him today. He’s floating far out there, man.
C’mon, he’s giving his best today!
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:12 pm
Yep, the West is not doing well anyway thanks to the neocons getting their disastrous and disastrously incompetent way with George W. It is really a kind of a cultural death wish to hope for a permanent deep rift, even war (for God’s sake) between Europe and the USA. Finnpundit’s “opinions” don’t border with pathological, they happily cross far into bonkers territory. What is scary is that these idiotic, morally corrupt opinions actually have quite a bit of currency in the US (though not yet in the hard core elites - and not meaning any tree hugging East Coast Ivy League intellectuals - but that might be only a matter of time with these trends.
Comment by mjr — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:12 pm
Well when war between usa and europe begins I do hope that finnpundit will enlist himself and join the fight and hopefully gets shipped to Finland
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
@132,
Finnpundit’s strategic thinking does make me wonder if he’s channeling GRÖFAZ…
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:15 pm
A transatlantic rift is neither in the US nor in the EU interests, nor is it in Israeli or Lebanese interests.
A rift is very much in the interests of the US, as the US has everything to gain from distancing itself from the European welfare state model. And European leaders instinctively know this: it is the fear of this rift that has caused them to be more accommodating to Condoleezza Rice’s diplomatic initiatives.
The greatest danger is for Americans to believe that Europeans are, fundamentally, friends and allies: they are not. All policy thinking should be based on this assumption.
Comment by Finnpundit — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:16 pm
Finn-puke-it wrote:
“If such a force becomes a reality, it is necessary to demonstrate in advance the price of collaboration.”
I do hope that no-one will make an example out of anyone who’s dear to you (if such people even exist given your sadistic, aloof tendencies), because if they do, you might just enjoy it.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
Festung Amerika - sieg heil… I suppose the rift - or war - would be funded by Asian central banks as everything else. Maybe you should just nuke us to save the hard borrowed dollars?
Comment by mjr — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
hey finnpundit can you promise when the great war begins that you will join your *army* and come to Finland? It would give me great joy if you would
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
That Europeans are America’s main enemy is the wet dream of Osama bin Laden.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:20 pm
And can you believe that people actually believe the crap that finn-puke-it spews out of his mouth back in the states
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:21 pm
Its become pretty interesting to see the EU support the attackers of a country.
Yep.. that the basic idea. Support the guy who attacked first, after all he was in the right.
Can anyone say food-for-oil to explain why? History repeating itself?
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:21 pm
bzzz islamo-fascist
bzbzz bush good you evil
bzzz free dental-care
Bzzz french white-flag waving
Bzzzz uups I soiled myself bzzz
Comment by winter-bot — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:24 pm
winter, I was already missing your deep wisdom from this thread: will you join Finnpundit’s triumphant Panzers while we sissily try to fight on the beaches and landing grounds in Europe? Btw, as you mentioned the food for oil, might you have the missing billions from the Coalition Authority’s great reign in Bagdad - freedom of the market in very action…
Comment by mjr — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
winter wrote:
“Can anyone say food-for-oil to explain why? History repeating itself?”
Can you say Guantanamo bay? What about Patrit Act? And then there are the secret US prisons around eastern Europe, of course. But what about My Lai? And Haditha?
Of course you don’t know about these things or really understand what I’m talking about because all these things and places are making your head spin and all those complicated foreign names are so funny-looking and confusing. Afterall even G.W.Bush knows that Jesus spoke english and that if it was good enough for Him it should be good enough for everyone.
Yes, just keep on chewing on your burger and listening to your “fair and balanced” “news”.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
..and don’t forget your “freedom fries”!
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:30 pm
#124 pod
I’m done weeping.., but still get annoyed by lies, doublethink and BS.
But it doesn’t seem to stop you from perpetuating them.
I hate lies as well and have no problem changing my opinion when facts no longer support it. However based on my experiences and readings, you always need to question the source of your information or you may end up on the wrong side of history.
Comment by Buckeye Abroad — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:31 pm
You know, I really can’t believe that anybody in the States would take seriously what Finnpundit is saying. Yeah, there is the anti-European crowd there (as we have our share of anti-Americans here) but no decent people would take what Finnpundit is saying today seriously. Al-Qaeda people, if they’re fanatic enough, could relate to what Finnpundit is saying (some of them have already bombed Europe) but no, Americans are not craving for our blood and rejoicing when our soldiers get killed. Finnpundit is today tuning his message to some segment of the addict population that have lost their touch with reality altogether. Someone on a permanent acid trip might nod approvingly to what Finnpundit is saying but not Americans who are seriously into politics. I know there are kooks into politics but no, Finnpundit is playing his fiddle to the kook crowd who are not connected at all.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
All this bashing on both sides is making me a little bit naucious, but at the same time I am surprised how critical Finns tend to be of Israel / US. At the same time completely forgetting to ask questions like, “how on earth did the hizbollah get 12 000 rockets to a small country that was supposedly under UN observation..”
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002608.html
Comment by STP — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:38 pm
147: Helsinkian, are you so sure? I know it is a fringe thing at the moment, but much less fringe than what it used to be. Sure, the National Review doesn’t mindlessly advocate a permanent rift or even war with Europe like some latter day Völkischer Beobachter, but even they ceaselessly engage in completely pointless and destructive sniping against “Europe” - in the sense that really does not seem to serve any serious American national interest (as a great and powerful Republic) even if coldly and amorally calculated - no, instead the underlaying agenda seems to be some very poisonous ideology indeed. I wouldn’t be so sure that the multitude of these rants are harmless and not effecting the national discourse.
Comment by mjr — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:38 pm
148: Well, actually I have much more sympathy towards Israel than Syria or Iran which really are hateful police states. I just don’t think that this present attack will serve its purpose (which is quite admirable). If fact, it very probably will be counter effective and very harmful indeed to Israel’s interests and security as a liberal democratic state (winter, this last term does not mean that they would be any pinko-homo-commies). A failed Lebanon is not in Isreal’s rational interest.
Comment by mjr — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:41 pm
mjr: Sniping on Europe is one thing but what Finnpundit is doing today is beyond the pale.
I have no problem with the anti-European crowd in the US being critical of our society. They have a freedom of speech, exactly like we Europeans of different persuasions enjoy. What Finnpundit is saying is not about freedom of speech, it’s the same thing that the islamofascists are doing, spewing pure blind hatred.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:42 pm
winter, are you by any chance featured on this little piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp4iI59BfpQ&search=stupid%20americans
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:45 pm
Helsinkian: No, but what I mean is that it is ceaseless, deeply irrational criticism (not far from sheer hatred), even from sources that used to be rational. It is moreover directly against the most selfish American interests - scarily so. I have no problem about the fact that there are conservatives in the US (or Europe) who are very critical about the social democratic model. It just seems to go far beyond that.
Of course, I have no quarrel about Finnpundit being beyond pale - he is deeply in the anorak territory, but I am not sure that he is it as much as he would have been 10 years ago. And that’s very worrying.
Comment by mjr — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
..or in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7-mHgXpE60&NR
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
prince of dorknes - Nah, I don’t like crazy freaks on either side of the tent and all sides of this equation are crazy fools with artillery. I’ll just keep hoping for the aliens and terraforming.
And you all should just try to ignore Finnpundit as he’s a minority and getting off on trolling so easily. The bit about the USS Liberty and losing 34 Americans should simply tell you one thing…and that is if the US is willing to pretend Israel didn’t kill it’s own people and keep it secret for decades, you can be very, very sure that the US isn’t going to react to the death of a single Finnish UN peacekeeper.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:52 pm
A failed Lebanon is neither in Lebanese nor in Israeli interests. It could be in Iranian or Syrian interests, more perhaps Iranian than Syrian.
Israel’s goal is not Lebanon as a failed state, it is the admirable one of disarming Hezbollah.
Yet I’m not at all sure Israel can disarm Hezbollah. It’s not that the other Lebanese politicians would have lacked the will of disarming Hezbollah, they all would have been better off without Hezbollah bringing them closer toward disaster by the day. They were simply incapable of doing that. I’m a bit of a pessimist and I think the IDF will not succeed in disarming Hezbollah, either.
Like many here have said any blows that the IDF can deal to Hezbollah are welcome and would help Lebanon to attain stability but any blows to the non-Hezbollah Lebanese, the country as a whole not to speak of the fragile democratic structures and to foreigners in Lebanon, such as UN troops, are counterproductive. I know that at war innocent people always die but there is a point to the war only if there is a realistic possibility for Israel to attain their goal which is disarming Hezbollah. Breaking the structure of Lebanese society on the way to attaining that goal would be a prohibitive price and ultimately turn out to be counterproductive. It’s a fine balance and Lebanon is a very fragile country and the country as a whole is certainly not Israel’s natural enemy.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
you can be very, very sure that the US isn’t going to react to the death of a single Finnish UN peacekeeper.
You’re saying that as if someone was expecting it.
But anyways, the Finnish UNTSO officer along with the three others gave his life for Middle East peace. We can count on the knuckleheads to keep yapping how Finland, or the EU, contributes nothing.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
The USA doesn’t want to break up with Europe. The US strategy is to remain the the sole super power, the last think it wants to do is give Europe a reason to challenge its hegemony … benevolent hegemony, sorry.
It’s childish to think that the little differences in welfare systems had anything to do with this bigger picture. Perhaps Finn”pundit” is a child?
Comment by tomia — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:08 pm
hfb: Doesn’t terraforming mean making the region habitable? I first thought you were one of those anti-Middle Eastern people who’d say hopefully they all kill each other over there, then peace will arrive. If you’re one of those, you can be sure there were folks thinking that way about the US in the 1860s, Finland in 1918 or Europe in WWI & WWII. Something like, all these humans do is kill each other, hopefully they get wiped out and some sensible aliens come here instead.
Whereas I’m pessimistic when it comes to the IDF attaining their war goals (if they disarm Hezbollah, I’ll sure be happy about that), I think peace in the region is possible. The democratic development in Lebanon was the best promise for the Middle East and I certainly hope that it will turn out to be irreversible. If the Lebanese can live in peace with each other after all that happened there, I’m sure anyone can. Hezbollah is holding their entire Lebanese nation as hostage and it’s very sad to look at. It’s such a terrible shame they couldn’t be disarmed.
I guess what we’ll have is some sort of international force to keep the peace and plenty of more sacrifices from peacekeepers. That’s sure a better bet than aliens.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:17 pm
Leave welfare to Phil’s other post today (which doesn’t have any comments on as of yet).
Comment by Sam — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:27 pm
There is a long tradition of anti-Israel sentiment in Finland. The popular opinion here still seems to be biased against Israel. Of course both sides in this conflict are very wrong indeed, but I dislike Hezbollah more for being such fanatics.
Comment by m — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:28 pm
#161 They both are fanatics
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:29 pm
And yes, I would be very very happy if the IDF somehow managed to disarm the Hezz.
Comment by m — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:32 pm
#162 I disagree, Israel is at least a partial democracy ruled by relative moderates.
Comment by m — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:33 pm
m: there’s also a strong pro-Israeli sentiment in Finland. We have both.
Then there are many Finns who are completely neutral. The pro-Israelis tell them, you can’t be neutral, if you’re neutral, you’re biased. The anti-Israelis tell them the same.
Whereas I think there are regrettably many anti-Israelis in Finland, there aren’t that many anti-Semites. Finnpundit of course has written that Finland and Sweden are full of anti-Semites:
http://finnpundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/brilliant-idea.html
My honest observation is that Finland strives toward neutrality in the Middle Eastern crisis and ultimately I hope that Israel will see Finland’s honest intentions. Both European and North American countries have a democratic development in the Middle East as their hope, which is also Israel’s best bet for peace and security. Some of the dictatorial régimes in the Middle East do not hope for such a development because they would be wiped out in the process.
Personally I’m more pro-Israeli than neutral because taking side against people like Hezbollah feels quite natural to me. Still, I’m very critical of some of the results of the previous Israeli invasion to Lebanon in 1982. Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon was a good idea and it would have worked, had it not been for Hezbollah’s insane war politics. Israel should not repeat the mistakes made in the past. Today’s Israeli government is quite moderate and I don’t expect them to go overdrive, they’re just desperate to take out Hezbollah. But I don’t expect them to take out Hezbollah, the task is too difficult and complicated and the past history of the mistakes made after the initial success of 1982 make the Israeli position in Lebanon a very difficult one.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:42 pm
Yes, I was careful not to use the word anti-semite since luckily I haven’t seen much of that here.
Comment by m — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:51 pm
Leave welfare to Phil’s other post today (which doesn’t have any comments on as of yet).
Phil forgot to point out how the welfare state was ultimately responsible for the deaths of the four UNTSO officers. Losing your touch, Phil. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 7:59 pm
#166 then which posts are anti-semite here?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:00 pm
Post #169 FTW!
Comment by gopha — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:08 pm
#12 O went pretty far. When an anti-Israeli text says that the enemies of Israel “can do whatever they want with them” I really can’t think of anything but what has happened to Jews throughout history when “whatever” has been allowed to happen. Maybe O meant that Hezbollah % co. could do whatever they like with even Arab Israelis, not just Jewish Israelis, but for me it sounded anti-Semitic.
I have no sympathy either with those who say that the IDF should do “whatever” with Lebanese, who are Arabs. Interestingly enough, we haven’t seen much anti-Arab bigotry on this thread, just Finnpundit who gloats whenever a Finn or other UN observer gets killed.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:14 pm
I can’t believe how someone can support Israel with this conflict, mass civilian murdering country. I can’t believe how someone can support terrorist groups either, but to support a terrorist state like Israel, it’s just sick.
Those 2 kidnapped israeli solders are just an excuse to start ww3, or at least a conflict which might easyly expand to the whole middle east, possibly north Africa too.
Some people here seem to think it’s ok for israel to kill hundreds of civilians, just because terrorists have killed israeli civilians. “you did this so I do it too” is so kindergarten thinking, but we all know Isreal’s leaders are as wackos as terrorist leaders.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
Let’s replace the poor (dead) observers in the UN station with a fistful of *unarmed* US peacekeepers (wearing blue helmets, of course)
Do you think Israelis’ aim would finally improve?
Comment by Urmas — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:20 pm
“Phil forgot to point out how the welfare state was ultimately responsible for the deaths of the four UNTSO officers. Losing your touch, Phil. Tsk, tsk, tsk. “
Hey, that reminds me… I was in Helsinki today and all hamburger/hot-dog/kebab kiosks were closed…again. There were millions of people roaming the city with money in their pockets, but the kiosks were closed anywayâ€â€now, during tourist-season. Are all these kiosk owners living off the welfare state or something?
Sorry this is off-topic, but it’s very frustrating for a hungry soul, like me.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:25 pm
Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni and Amir Peretz are not wackos. They are politicians like Bush and Blair are.
I think Israel has a great national consensus behind their government and talented people at the helm.
Now the talented leaders of Israel also are inexperienced at military matters. One way to see it is that the Israelis finally can trust moderates with a civilian background to lead the country. The other way is that whatever all the faults of Ariel Sharon were (not all of his experience was positive, quite the contrary), he was a realist and military tactic of some sort. The criticism against the current Israeli operation stems from the real possibility that they are trying a military solution to a problem that can’t be solved that easily militarily. At least they can’t solve Lebanon’s problems. They might create a buffer zone and make it more difficult for Hezbollah to launch rockets but if that’s the only damage done to Hezbollah and much more damage is being done to the rest of Lebanon, Hezbollah may be able to weather the storm and win adherents among people who weren’t for them in the past.
Yet Hezbollah’s actions have been so insane lately that my bet is that they will be weakened by this in the end. Will they be weakened enough to justify all the casualties (and were they on their way to be weakened in any case), remains to be seen.
But if Olmert and his cabinet fail with reaching their goal militarily, they are more than capable to use diplomatic channels. They are not unreasonable wackos or anywhere close to fanaticism. Anyone who has seen religious wackos and terrorists on both sides of the conflict knows that they are nothing like the current Israeli cabinet. On the Lebanese side the only wackos are Hezbollah, despite all the atrocities of the past of all sides. Almost everyone in the Lebanese cabinet and everyone in the Israeli cabinet are sensible people who are capable to accept a peaceful solution. This is why it is so incredibly tragic that Hezbollah were allowed to decide that war is the best solution when it clearly isn’t between Israel and Lebanon.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:32 pm
156 - Helsinkian: Couldn’t really agree more. I just see this current effort as feeding militancy and not extinguishing it. A prosperous, democratic and Western oriented Lebanon would surely have been mortally dangerous to Teheran and Damascus - and Hizbollah. Now Israel playing with the very same fire that led to a humiliating withdrawal in the first place.
Comment by mjr — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:34 pm
jon stewart on lebanon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1kqKesPz5w&search=stewart%20lebanon
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:37 pm
Uh oh? The hamburger/hot-dog/kebab kiosks are open only in the night when the “real” restaurants are closed.
Comment by mh — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:45 pm
#170
Helsinkian, I was really pissed off when I wrote that comment and I still am.
If you think that I am a anti-semite then I am also anti-muslim, anti-christian, anti-nazi, anti-every-hateful-ideology etc. etc.
As I said I have no symphaty towards jews, muslims etc.
And yes I’m against the state of Israel a nation build on religion, driven by religion with a similiar type of ideology that a-hole hitler had.
Comment by O — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 8:46 pm
“The hamburger/hot-dog/kebab kiosks are open only in the night when the “real†restaurants are closed.”
Yes, I know they have their sparse hours. Then they close entirely for the Winter and Spring.
Hizbollah, Jews, Gas Pipelines… I just don’t understand how we can solve the world’s problems if we can’t even find an overpriced kerros hampurilainen here at home.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:07 pm
#178
Hitler was actually more pegan relatively secular (Nizche wasn’t quite Christian with the whole ‘Superman’ theory and God is dead stuff). Add the soviet gulags and deportations to siberia and the khemir rouge and secularism is just as deadly.
The decision to build a nation (which is really a people) on a religion is their culteral perogative. It might not be smart, but that doesn’t make them genocidal maniacs.
Comment by Sam — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:10 pm
#168 here = Finland
Comment by m — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:10 pm
This “God is dead stuff” is IMO a misinterpretation. It was more of a statement of fact (regarding secular Europe) than a religious statement.
“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.” is a better quotation.
Comment by m — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:19 pm
#182
Correct, that is in better context. But the final solution and Aryan superman was partially allowed by the lack of sacredness of life or sort of an ‘ends justifies the means’ type thing. You probably have a better finger on what it’s about than I do. Thanks for the correction.
Comment by Sam — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:23 pm
crap read your books boy
secularism and humanism aren’t deadly and they aren’t synonyms for
communism or nazism.
and Hitler was catholic.
wow this winter style writing is cool
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:36 pm
Great stuff on that Jon Stewart clip btw.
Comment by m — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:36 pm
Winter must be one of the best fed trolls ever.
Seriously, don’t feed it or it will follow you home.
Comment by Matti — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:44 pm
war is hell, Israel has been at war with Hizbolah for a LOOONG time…life goes on, you dont like war ? dont go there, you dont like war ? dont turn your TV on, and chill out at the lake ,,its summer…
one day if russia ever does anything in secret against finland, or as we know …oppps did we pass the into Finish airspace ? oops,,, i dont wanna see any of you bitching and moaning…. Dont like the situation in the middle east ? pick a side and join their military and stop you bitching… Nothing you ganna do about it but bitch…waaa, you dont like it ? go over there and do soemthing about it. ill sit here fishing.
ahh life is great when your having fun
Comment by Me — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:48 pm
life is great when nukes are dropping
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 9:51 pm
Here is a UNIFIL Press release from today:
UNIFIL press release (PDF)
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:23 pm
@hfb,
what I meant was you wouldn’t want these mothers pissed at you. Or finding new friends to play with, given the toys they have.
@O, post 178,
Israel is a weird mixture of Eastern European ethnic nationalism and late colonial imperialism, but the Nazi comparison isn’t fair. And it was built on secular nationalism, some ultra-religious Jews still regard it as blasphemous. I can actually empathize with the poor buggers born into that situation, I’m a nationalist too. Blood and soil and all that. But I still can’t see what Olmert et al imagine they can achive with this.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 10:31 pm
#190
Okay the nazi comparison may be too rough but the fact remains that jews I’m not saying that all the jews believe this but the ones I met in Israel do believe that they are the people of god and therefor better than us ordinary humans.
Israel is a theocratic nation on a mission given to them by god.
Comment by O — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 11:32 pm
Helsinkian
No more talk about “A failed Lebanon “. The pacifists think shooting rockets at Israel is ok, but Israel can’t shoot back. Or shutter, try to get their solders back… shutter
or
“admirable one of disarming Hezbollah.” You can’t have good intensions when you defend your country.
Bottom line: Israel just needs to sit there and take it. Those Israel wimps need a spine.
Why: Because we armchair Generals in the EU SAID SO. And by the way those rockets flying overhead are great crowd pleasers. Can’t wait for the Iranian nukes to get done.
Options: Why we don’t have any. We can run and hide, but offering options to Israel is not what we do. We do hold the French white Flag of surrender very well.
Comment by winter — Wed, Jul 26th, 2006 @ 11:54 pm
#94 and #124:
I am not blaming the kids, but there is something seriously wrong with adults who:
1) Let kids near live ammo
2) Give them markers to write with
3) Do this in front of 12 photographers
Comment by Anonyymi Pelkuri — Thu, Jul 27th, 2006 @ 12:08 am
Man is dead.
Comment by Markku — Thu, Jul 27th, 2006 @ 1:25 am
Poor Omert had no real military glory behind him and was so vulnerable to his generals’ pressure to do a bit easy Hezbollah mopping in the Southern Lebanon. General’s wishes were granted and the damn thing turns out to be not doable in one short week or so. Shit happens and it did again. What to do now, since the PR war have been already lost; Hezbollah is still there and propably always will? Short and long term security is not achieved and in the long term it just might have gone way down. The perpetual conflict machine just keeps on going on and on and on…
Comment by Petteri — Thu, Jul 27th, 2006 @ 1:44 am
Sorry for the emotional post.
I see no other no way forward anymore than EU to continue to max support for palestians (as much as I hate regheads) and UN complete weapons embargo to Israel.
Let the promised land sunk into the sea of mud. There’s no truth in their actions or speech. So, keeping them arbitarily alive is unnatural. Burn and rise no more.
Comment by An another angry finn — Thu, Jul 27th, 2006 @