“This was little do with racism but more to do with the psychological difficulty the Finns have with making room for others and to share the hard-earned fruits of their labour.”

Since when is antipathy towards “others” not racism if those “others” are of other races. Sounds like a fair definition of racism to me.

Well, I think “not wanting to give tax money to non-Finns” isn’t racism, but “not wanting to give tax money to black people” is. And it’s not because they’re black as to why the Finns don’t want to give away their tax money, it’s because they’re not Finns. So I don’t think it’s racism, it’s more of like xenophobia mixed in with nationalism mixed in with welfare statism.

Ignoring the obvious argument here, what are you trying to convey with this entry? It simply seems your trying to paint the welfare state as a negative thing. For example could you not have posed a question such as “Could the welfare state be a factor in anti imigrant sentment”.

I dont dispute the content nor the point actually, I just think it doesnt make a good argument when you polarise debate in this way.

Withusoragainstus comes to mind.

“Could the welfare state be a factor in anti imigrant sentment”.

In this blog, I very often use the word “could”. But in this case, I don’t, the welfare state causes racism.

So Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Canada are racist countries?

Well, the “others” should have done their entré more gracefully, than stabbing a schoolgirl in Tampere for return of a place to be and “fruits” shoveled to them by certain aunties. I still don’t get that logic, if you are supposed to flee for your life and be clever enough to study in Moscow.

This is a poor argument. If the welfare state creates racism per se, then you would expect people in a welfare state to be racist regardless of whether or not there are immigrants/refugees. The salient factor in the racism is the existence of poorly integrated and culturally alien peoples. Do you really think letting the refugees fend for themselves would give people a higher opinion of them? It’s not as if the US doesn’t have massive race problems and immigrants aren’t given anything there.

phil said `In this blog, I very often use the word “could”. But in this case, I don’t, the welfare state causes racism.´ But phil its the people who choose the welfare state so is it not the system its the people who vote, the people around you every day at work have you told them that you think the majority of them are racists.

Finns who don’t like refugees don’t, in most cases, care whether the refugees are black, yellow, red, white or something in between. That is not racism. As pointed out above.

Finns who don’t like immigrants who are black, yellow, red or white are not necessarily racist, they are just not used to foreigners in this little (until recently) quite isolated and homogenous country.

There are racists too, of course, but I’m sure the majority has suspicions about foreigners based on something other than race.

So Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Canada are racist countries?

I know that Sweden and Denmark have some serious race/immigrant issues.

Do you really think letting the refugees fend for themselves would give people a higher opinion of them?

If there wasn’t government handouts or opportunities, they wouldn’t come to Finland in the first place.

It’s not as if the US doesn’t have massive race problems and immigrants aren’t given anything there.

And there’s a lot of Americans out there who don’t like immigrants for the same reason, they’re sucking up state resources.

Somebody:

“So Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Canada are racist countries?”

Phil:

“I know that Sweden and Denmark have some serious race/immigrant issues.”

What the heck does is that supposed to mean?

But phil its the people who choose the welfare state so is it not the system its the people who vote, the people around you every day at work have you told them that you think the majority of them are racists.

There’s good and bad things to everything, one of that negatives of a welfare state is that it causes racism like this. I don’t think people consciously go to the polls and say, “I’m a racist, I’m gonna vote FOR the welfare state”. It’s just that heavy baggage that comes along with it.

What the heck does is that supposed to mean?

= yes, Sweden and Denmark have these welfare state/racism issues as well.

“So Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Canada are racist countries?”

You might add almost all civilized countries to that list, as they’re all welfare states.

I do not think there are racist countries, only racist people.

“You might add almost all civilized countries to that list, as they’re all welfare states.”

except the USA. We believe folks can actualy (sniff, sniff) Fail.

I lived in Finland for 4 years as an immigrant working in the IT industry. Since it was the boom time, I actually got a very good salary that was very much comparable to the average US salary for IT skills. But many a time, I used to face lot of negative attitudes from people just because of my skin color who initially thought that I was a refugee. And in public places like bars, cruises, etc., I have been spit at, kicked by people. I did not see that happening to my German workmate, Norwegian workmate, etc. I dont know whether it is racism or whatever ,,,

The only way I survived was because I was too naive then to recognise the behaviour and my amazing Finnish friends who were my pillars of support.

Hyvaa Suomi
Jaggi

Here is an interesting survey on “happiness” that skirts the topic:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/5012478.stm

I am not 100% sure if Finland is “happy”… maybe the government should do something to ensure happiness… like they do in Bhutan
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4782636.stm

7 – absolutely, the existence of poorly integrated … peoples. you know, Mandela shares your opinion. And he knows more about racism than anyone here. I remember seeing an interview of him on tv. He said that whites who didn’t see or interact with blacks were more likely to be racist than those who saw and interacted with them frequently, and that a process of changing their minds (from racist to non-racist) would be far harder with the non-integrated community than with the integrated community.
I’ve come to think that, racism like homophobia, is fear disguised and protected by anger and spite. And isolated people and communities will be more likely to be racist/homophobic.

I think it is quite the opposite. You have the touchy-feely-happy flower-hatted aunties who are all for multiculturalism – as long as the immigrants stay out of their neighbourhood.

winter,

medicare, medicaid, unemployment support, free higher education for the poor (in some instances). The US is a welfare state, it’s just not a very comprehensive one.

phil,

“If there wasn’t government handouts or opportunities, they wouldn’t come to Finland in the first place.”

The foreigners who are distrusted are mostly refugees and they don’t get to choose where to go. They apply for a country of choice but go where they are sent. You really think the folk in war-torn Somalia sat there dreaming of a life in Finland because of the benefits?

I believe it is the welfare state which makes them (some of them) to be that way [racist].

What a ludicrous notion. If racism is not taught by influential racists, people exhibit racism on their own when they feel threatened – regardless of whether they are in a welfare, free-market, or any other politcal model state.

Since you also love Southpark, I hope you have seen the “Goobacks” episode. Now if someone was cult-brainwashed against the free-market as you are towards the welfare state, they would ‘believe’ that the “they took are jobs” sentiment is caused by the free-market. Wouldn’t they? And that also sounds pretty stupid, doesn’t it?

Do you have a hippie infestation in your basement?

#22 According to Phil’s logic Russia must be a top notch welfare state. After all they have quite violent racism against Africans, like the late shooting of the Senegalese student, and Caucasians, like the stabbing of the Armenian girl in St. Pete.

I lived in Finland for 4 years as an immigrant working in the IT industry. Since it was the boom time, I actually got a very good salary that was very much comparable to the average US salary for IT skills.

Cheers, Jaggi. I worked for the same company at the same time and would have probably made more money driving an ice cream truck or working for Nokia, even.

I did not see that happening to my German workmate, Norwegian workmate, etc. I dont know whether it is racism or whatever ,,,

I know one guy who got an incredible amount of crap for being German.

I wouldn’t say the “real problem arose” in 1990. Granted, people had forgotten, but some 50 years earlier the government had to resettle some 450 000 people. They had to confiscate land to give to these refugees, which were “foreign” in their ways, different religion, different dialect, different customs… However the tensions then got settled in a generation and the culture got amalgamated.

In 1990 the country was in the throes of a recession, and the government wasn’t prepared to take in boatloads of people popping up in the harbour. The “system” was designed to work in a different manner. The USSR had kept its border closed from people exiting, so nobody realised someone would actually come from there.

Now then as the country was in recession, there were bread queues, and a lot of unhappy people in general, then you get the Somalians pop up in numbers and then you get the knee-jerk reaction. I don’t think it had been any different if it had been Bhutanese or Brazilians that popped up. The national psyche had just been kicked in the nads so you needed *someone* to blame. The Ingrians moving in from Russia also ended up being scapegoats. In their case the government was also unprepared and there was a generation of “lost youth” created that then got into trouble and caused bad press.

The foreigners who are distrusted are mostly refugees and they don’t get to choose where to go. They apply for a country of choice but go where they are sent. You really think the folk in war-torn Somalia sat there dreaming of a life in Finland because of the benefits?

now Finnsense the thing is a “refugee” and an “asylum seeker” are two different things. The “asylum seeker” coming from Somalia via Russia or Estonia in the 1990′s “chose” to come to Finland instead of staying in Russia or Estonia. Probably because those countries didn’t have much interest in feeding them. Of course Finland probably wasn’t the desirable target country. But yes, they came here for the “benefits”… benefit of being housed and fed if nothing else.

What then is different is the Finnish “quota refugee” system that was designed in mind of gradual integration.

As I said in my previous post, the government wasn’t prepared. And Finns weren’t prepared. “Who would want to come *here*?” So it must be to exploit the system. And it does not help that some people do exploit the system.

One should also remember Finland was a net emigration country. Finland’s economy wasn’t based on immigrant labour. The foreigners who came, were neighbours who wanted to conquer us! So of course you don’t like foreigners! They’re dangerous!!!

Compare Finland and Ireland. Similar in quite many aspects. Irish economy right now is booming like there is no tomorrow and lads of immigrants. So what do you hear from there? Similar pants-down surprised government. Similar griping of “foreigners taking the jobs” and asylum seekers “being a problem” that you hear from some 9am pub patron in Finland. So I wouldn’t say Finland is in any way unique… the issues are Europe-wide if not worldwide.

I know one guy who got an incredible amount of crap for being German.

After watching ‘Schimanski’, ‘Der Alte’, ‘Ein Fall Für Zwei’, ‘Matula’ and other classics on the Finnish tv, I can ssure you the Germans deserve all the crap

What total rubbish. By your logic the racism is a modern occurrence provoked by the welfare state.
Racism and xenophobia are fairly constant and disgusting qualities found in almost all cultures and all times. Unfortunately many people instinctively hate and fear people who look different.
The British Raj and South Africa were open markets with virtually no protection for the weakest or poorest. Both were among the most terrible and comprehensive racist systems ever.

I come from the countryside and I have heard some real racists and most of their so called arguements are gut level physical racism – “They smell, they are ugly, they dress stupidly, their language sounds like monkeys chattering” . Economics don’t come into it much, face it some people are just die-hard racists. Don’t try and shift this onto the welfare state. That’s a very new thing compared with racism.
Also by your logic, does this mean that the USA, which is not and never has been a welfare state has never had racism and doesn’t have any now?

You really think the folk in war-torn Somalia sat there dreaming of a life in Finland because of the benefits?

I don’t think they sat there dreaming of a life in Finland period.

I’ve had Indians in Finland tell me that they don’t experience racism, their reasoning, because most all Indians in Finland are here to work, they’re not taking the “hard-earned fruits of the Finns’ labour”.

So I don’t think that the racist Finns simply don’t like them because of their skin color.

Hank racism in Russia is a little bit different than in other places but has something in common.

In Russia they afraid of immigrants who come to their country and soon live better than most of them. Not because of welfare but because they are hard working, creative and soon establish and run their own business. They afraid that soon immigrants will run everything in russia.

In Finland any foreigner considered asylum seeker or refugee. A person who came to enjoy benefits of their country. There is some logic here. Many Finns are moving to other countries, who’ll move to Finland from better place? Only people from poor countries will ever move to Finland as the only choice to go. There are some who came to work(temporary) or on family tie but the number is quite low. That’s why it doesn’t matter where you from in Finland – you are considered unemployed immigrant who came to take benefits.

I don’t know if situation will change one day when all immigrants will get a job. Maybe then we’ll see situation like in Russia?

By the way, situation is quite different in Italy. We have immigrants and they don’t get anything from state. They earn their money and relations with locals is much better than Finland. Italians don’t escape/afraid talking, helping, dealing and living with foreigners.

Isn’t it strange that 100% of Finns consider me to be Italian in Italy(even when I speak english) but in Finland 95% consider me as turkish/iranian/kurdish/iraqi?

They don’t belive that Italian will ever move to Finland?

“They smell, they are ugly, they dress stupidly, their language sounds like monkeys chattering” . Economics don’t come into it much, face it some people are just die-hard racists. Don’t try and shift this onto the welfare state. That’s a very new thing compared with racism.

Sure, there’s those minority of retards who are going to believe “they smell” etc.. But there’s a much larger group in Finland who aren’t complete retards, and probably very educated, who think “I’m not racist, I just don’t like those people because they take away my resources.”

Also by your logic, does this mean that the USA, which is not and never has been a welfare state has never had racism and doesn’t have any now?

By your logic, there’s only one thing that creates racism. Like I said in my initial post, “it’s got to be the #1 reason why Finns are so against immigration.” …meaning that there’s also reasons #2, #3, 4, 5….

They don’t belive that Italian will ever move to Finland?

Yeah, what are you nuts!?

Hank – “As I said in my previous post, the government wasn’t prepared. And Finns weren’t prepared. “Who would want to come *here*?” So it must be to exploit the system. And it does not help that some people do exploit the system.”

You say that like there aren’t scores of natives and non-refugee immigrants who don’t work the system as much as possible as well as corruption and waste in spending that few want to see or think about. 60% of my earnings taxed in a tiny little country tells me that it ain’t just the few darkies sucking up the freebies honey. Oh, and about the skinheads in Russia: CNN did a report on rising skinhead-ism all over the EU and, judging by the holy war that is just gathering steam, it likely is only going to get much worse.

And, Phil, I’m also with the opinion that it isn’t the welfare state, but the overall culture that tends to be assholes to their neighbours, much less to freakish outsiders….not to mention children who learn very early to hate the kids who are different and not Finnish. It’s much more complex than simply the give and take of the welfare state.

After watching ‘Schimanski’, ‘Der Alte’, ‘Ein Fall Für Zwei’, ‘Matula’ and other classics on the Finnish tv, I can ssure you the Germans deserve all the crap

I can’t believe you failed to mention the one and only, the original, Derrick!

Sure, there’s those minority of retards who are going to believe “they smell” etc..

Well, if you ever get on a local bus with Somali ladies going out to town – they do smell – of a “different” perfume. Finns don’t use that kind of perfume so of course the “foreigner smells”… Your diet also dictates how you smell. Finnish men on a Sunday morning can reek of alcohol sweating out from their pores. Smokers smell too.

The thing is that the human olfactory sense is not as keen as say a dogs, but humans can smell and sometimes the sense works in the subconscious. As the combination of diet, perfumes & beauty products in Finland has been stable for a long time that “smell” you don’t notice. its like a guy needing to work in a sewer – one gets used to it. Now if someone comes and sits next to me after treating their hair with coconut oil, of course they “smell” as the coconut oil is something different from the surrounding “background noise” of smells. Now if I went someplace where everyone treated their hair with coconut oil, it’d blend into the background noise and wouldn’t be notied. Probably the locals would think I smelled funny as I used something than what they didn’t use everyday.

So yes, “people from a different region smell different”, but one becomes a “foreigner” adapting to a different “smell culture” – I remember coming back from the Caribbean and I thought Finland “smelled weird” and reportedly I “smelled weird”… took a week or so to adapt.

By the way, situation is quite different in Italy. We have immigrants and they don’t get anything from state. They earn their money and relations with locals is much better than Finland. Italians don’t escape/afraid talking, helping, dealing and living with foreigners.

Well, that’s not the image that official Italy projects. Didn’t one of your ministers say something like France had ruined its national football team by letting some pesky immigrants play on it? And hasn’t there been talk for quite some time to lessen the number of foreigners playing in the Serie A? What about the player who got booted out of his Italian team for scoring a goal against Italy in the 2002 World Cup?

And don’t even get me started on Berlusconi, who isn’t exactly the prime example of civilisation or cultural sensitivity.

Isn’t it strange that 100% of Finns consider me to be Italian in Italy(even when I speak english) but in Finland 95% consider me as turkish/iranian/kurdish/iraqi?

Just as strange as it is that, in Finland, most French and Italians consider me to be Finnish. In France or Italy, they think that I’m either German or Dutch (even when i speak Finnish which has nothing to do with German or Dutch). From a Nordic point of view, all Southern European and Mediterranean countries belong to the same cultural pool. From a Southern European and the Mediterranean point of view, all northern European countries belong to the same cultural pool. It’s just the point of view.

Hey! No bashing Derrick or Der Alte! Those are two kick-ass shows. And Schimanski is the man, dude!

mein name ist Köster, kriminalpolizei.:lol:

And, Phil, I’m also with the opinion that it isn’t the welfare state, but the overall culture that tends to be assholes to their neighbours, much less to freakish outsiders….not to mention children who learn very early to hate the kids who are different and not Finnish. It’s much more complex than simply the give and take of the welfare state.

Really? you don’t make it sound complex at all. Finns are born and bred to be racist, they hate everyone and their dog (including themselves), and they are all-round mean and nasty people who live in a mean and nasty country which also has bad weather and rotten tomatoes.

Discussion solved, we can all go home now.

I’m admittedly no expert on the causes of racism but I bet that if someone dug deeper in the history of racism in any welfare state, the results would be that racism predates the welfare state. It might even be that there is less racism in many welfare states after the welfare state is created, or that the relation is nonexistent.

Phil, I understand your view on how you think racism and the welfare state are connected and I’m certainly not saying there isn’t some truth to it. But saying that the welfare state is the #1 reason is just a typical libertarian interpretation.

If you were talking about a welfare state with a large immigrant population, your point might make some sense. But in Finland we have still relatively few immigrants and there has been racism also in places where immigration is low.

Perhaps Phil’s point would be more accurate for the Norwegian debate. After all, the progressive party (Fremskrittspartiet, the anti-immigrant party) have been all along saying 1) the welfare state that gives benefits to all regardless of ethnic origin is bad and leads to disincentives 2) there should be more welfare benefits given to native Norwegians, the state is being too thrifty with the oil money that is there in great piles to be divided among Norwegians 3) non-Norwegians should get no welfare. After all, only a welfare state can create an extreme right that has such an argumentation.

But I don’t think we have such bizarre politics in Finland. The welfare state could create racism if we had people in such large numbers like progressive party voters in Norway, who want to maximize their welfare state benefits and minimize those of non-natives.

The welfare state can create a specific type of racist welfarism but I don’t think we have that in Finland and my assessment would be that whatever the kind of racism there is in Finland today, it is the very same type of racism that was there before the welfare state.

“Sure, there’s those minority of retards who are going to believe “they smell” etc.. But there’s a much larger group in Finland who aren’t complete retards, and probably very educated, who think “I’m not racist, I just don’t like those people because they take away my resources.”

–Surely then that’s not racism, that’s anger at anyone who is not working. Aren’t those people who think that way just as likely to not like fellow Finns if they are not working and thus ‘taking away my resources’?

Surely if people from other countries were not entitled to any protection from the state, they would be going around stealing and commiting crimes, which I suppose would not really endear them to us either.

There is undoubtabely and sadly racism to some degree present in Finland, as there also is here in Sweden, and I’m sure also in every other land in the world, but to blame it on the welfare state seems to me absurd.

I agree that there are racist people in Finland who are not retards and have good jobs. But I still think that generally the economic arguements they make are just a pretext for basic racism.
Thus my in-laws, who work, have higher education etc, start out on
” Immigrants come over here, take our jobs, use our benefits”. I say,
“Yeah, like me” And they say “Oh no, but you’re white”!

” I am not a racist, but..”. My arse – it means ” I am a racist, but scared to admit it, and I want to make a sweeping statement about a whole race of people”. I have heard Finns use this and then go on to use “Yö-Timo” in the same sentence. The two don’t square with me.

What do you think, I know my husband thinks I am too harsh on people who use these words. Can you use these words, yö- the n word, and not be racist ?

It’s much more complex than simply the give and take of the welfare state.

Like I said, there’s most definitely more than one reason for racism. In my experiences, in Finland, the #1 reason is due to the welfare state.

Hmmm, the only German-bashing I have noticed is the constant cracking about not allowing them anywhere near the matches. Especially in the northern parts of the country.

But I don’t think we have such bizarre politics in Finland.

I’m sure it will get that bizarre in Finland once this country actually gets a lot more immigrants. I’ve heard so many people claim that Finland deals with its immigrants so well…..cause we don’t have that many!

–Surely then that’s not racism, that’s anger at anyone who is not working.

But that attitude breeds racism.

Aren’t those people who think that way just as likely to not like fellow Finns if they are not working and thus ‘taking away my resources’?

Are you kidding? The welfare statists love people not working. They practically encourage it. The attitude is: They’re Finnish, so they’re entitled to Finnish resources no matter what they do. They’re foreign, they didn’t “earn” out resources.

Surely if people from other countries were not entitled to any protection from the state, they would be going around stealing and commiting crimes

Are tens of thousands of people going to leave their homes and families, only to come to Finland to be criminals? I seriously doubt it.

No, but it only requires a few visible ones – like the Rumanian gypsies last summer – that gets the media attention.

Are you kidding? The welfare statists love people not working. They practically encourage it.

Speak for yourself. I support the welfare state because a civilised society provides a safety net for people who fall in a tight spot. I absolutely loathe and despise people who are fit for work and make it their mission to freeride on the benefits for their entire lives with no effort to support themselves.

For one, I support at least a partial privatisation of healthcare. I sincerely believe we can cherry-pick some of the better aspects of the US system.

Are tens of thousands of people going to leave their homes and families, only to come to Finland to be criminals? I seriously doubt it.

Certainly not. Try hundreds of millions of people who’d be quite happy to move into any developed nation to get by by any means, including crime. I think you’re being quite naïve about how miserable things are in the 3rd world.

What do you think, I know my husband thinks I am too harsh on people who use these words. Can you use these words, yö- the n word, and not be racist ?

Whatever their education or job title is, I regard people who consider racist tirades to be a proper topic for dinner conversation as nothing but white trash.

Try hundreds of millions of people who’d be quite happy to move into any developed nation to get by by any means, including crime.

And I think you’re naive to believe they’re all a bunch of criminals. Or potential criminals rather.

About the welfare state. I once read an excellent comment from an older woman who had risen from meager beginnings to a high position in Finland. She said that, for her generation, the welfare state provided a ladder, but that nowadays most people use it as a hammock.

I couldn’t agree more. Anyone, Finnish or foreign, who has ever been unemployed in Finland and has thus had to deal with Kela knows that unemployment is not an enviable or encouragable state to be in.

If one good thing can be said about that place it’s that it’s not racist: it thinks that all people are scum regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, or gender.

Correction: “unemployed”, not “unemployment”.

Where in Europe are or have been the biggest nationalist xenophopic parties? In Finland? The “big-time” welfare states, like Sweden? Where do you find most racist crimes? Where is the number of people who tell that they don’t feel easy in the presence of foreigners greatest? Where did other “races” get civil rights just a couple of decades ago? In Finland?

Of course there are racists and the like in Finland – or Sweden – their number just happens to be smaller than in most other countries.

Looking into these kind of questions and trying to find correlations is called good argumentation. You can base your opinions solely on idology but be prepared to be laughed at, Phil, silly you.

Many people tend to look at the USA as some sort of a “immigration model”: less safety nets, more integration. It’s almost like a necessity. These people forget, though, that there are other countries that are as multicultural (at least in mumbers) as the US but has been able to keep the welfare srtuctures pretty much intact – like Sweden or Canada.

How come, by the way, there are more people moving from Italy to Finland than vice versa if Finns are such assholes and their tomatoes rotten?

For one, I support at least a partial privatisation of healthcare. I sincerely believe we can cherry-pick some of the better aspects of the US system.

Don’t cherry-pick the health-care system then, for heaven’s sake! It’s propably the worst in the developed world.

How come, by the way, there are more people moving from Italy to Finland than vice versa if Finns are such assholes and their tomatoes rotten?

Beautiful blondes. and Nokia.

Beautiful blondes. and Nokia.

So the Finns are assholes except for the beautiful blondes? Very polite indeed, and funny too! Very funny … And this is the fellow who pretends to be above xenophobia! That’s truly funny …

Relax, I’m joking around.

“Are you kidding? The welfare statists love people not working. They practically encourage it. ”

That’s a very strange statement. I have never heard any sincere ‘welfare statist’ state such a thing. I strongly believe in the welfare state myself, and I certainly do not think that people not working when they could be is a desirable thing, let alone encourage such a situation. That really isn’t the idea of the welfare state at all.

Beautiful blondes. and Nokia.

So let them have the blonde pississies from Vantaa and leave the Italian donnas to us.

#25: According to Phil’s logic Russia must be a top notch welfare state.

and

#56: You can base your opinions solely on idology but be prepared to be laughed at, Phil, silly you.

Indeed, the absolute best thing about this blog is how well it turns people off to libertarianism. I would like to be proven right or wrong however, so may I propose a poll? ….

Q: Has this FFT blog made you more or less supportive of libertarianism overall?

Options:
- MORE (I’m from Finland)
- LESS (I’m from Finland)
- MORE (I’m from the USA)
- LESS (I’m from the USA)
- MORE (I’m from another country)
- LESS (I’m from another country)

Indeed, the absolute best thing about this blog is how well it turns people off to libertarianism. I would like to be proven right or wrong however, so may I propose a poll? ….

Absolutely. The only self-proclaimed libertarians here are Phil, Finnpundit, and winter who could not make up a coherent and well-researched argument between themselves even if their life depended on it. When all I ever get is “Welfare state bad, libertarianism good” -type of grunting, you can count me out on that ideology.

Not that I actually subscribe to any one ideology, I think that they turn people into tunnel-brained broken records.

I would love to see that poll here, though.

Anzi @ 39: what does Berlusconi has to do with italy’s official image?

Anzi @ 39: what does Berlusconi has to do with italy’s official image?

He hasn’t much to do with it anymore now that he’s been voted out of office, but he used to be Italy’s Prime Minister and therefore the country’s main official representative.

Antti: “Well, the “others” should have done their entré more gracefully, than stabbing a schoolgirl in Tampere for return of a place to be and “fruits” shoveled to them by certain aunties.”

Read your post again as if you were one of the “others”. Think about how insanely sick it is that some people put the blame of all the bad deeds the “others” do ON YOU.

Indeed, the absolute best thing about this blog is how well it turns people off to libertarianism.

Hey, ever since I began writing this blog, I’ve been turned further away from libertarianism myself. Seriously. You all have changed me.

Libertarianism is rarely discussed and debated by non-libertarians. I’d bet this is one of the few libertarian blogs where like 99% of the readers aren’t libertarians. There are some real holes in libertarianism, like all political ideologies. One day I’ll have to write some blog posts about that.

The only self-proclaimed libertarians here are Phil, Finnpundit, and winter who could not make up a coherent and well-researched argument between themselves even if their life depended on it.

Finnpundit is not a libertarian, he’s a conservative. And my guess is that winter is a conservative as well.

When all I ever get is “Welfare state bad, libertarianism good” -type of grunting, you can count me out on that ideology.

Socialism, conservatism, communism, enviornmentalism….all the same way. Us good, you bad. That’s nothing new.

I would love to see that poll here, though.

Done! Although I added one question to it in case people had no idea what libertarianism was all about.

But hey, if real libertarians would read my blog, they’d kill me. There’s quite many libertarian positions I disagree with.

Phil:
Hey, ever since I began writing this blog, I’ve been turned further away from libertarianism myself. Seriously. You all have changed me.

Or perhaps you’ve just grown up a bit.

Thank you for posting the guest poll It will be interesting to see the results.

Hey, ever since I began writing this blog, I’ve been turned further away from libertarianism myself. Seriously. You all have changed me.

I don’t know, your blog posts have certainly not shifted accordingly. I think you are teasing us

I am not really interested in what caused racism in Finns, or what kind of racists they are (-like the not so racist towards whities, or more xenophobic than racist, whatever). what interests me is what the behaviour of Finnish racists is resulting in. How does the foreigner, immigrant or refugee gets treated differently and what is the effect of that?

But I already know the answer more or less and the outcome is that the effect is harmful, no matter if the Finnish racist also hates his neighbour who is from Savo. No matter if he or she is otherwise very well mannered and has a good job. No matter if 15 years ago he never saw any foreigner here and is therefore so shocked (?!).

I consider racism still a very normal human reaction towards “outsiders”, but Finland is a modern society with plenty of ways and also plenty of time to educate people enough to handle their negative feelings and avoid turning them into negative actions. Sorry to see that (also) in Finland something went wrong….

I may be a conservative.

I work, save money, pay taxes, and protect my capital. I am not interested in Government fix this or fix that programs.

If I need something (Dental work), I budget and pay for it myself.

I am not interested nor have I ever taken handouts, freebees, or even 2,000 on a credit card, after a storm. I will fix it myself, just stay away.

I help local folks who need odd jobs to get to a new paycheck, but I limit that to 1-2 day efforts to keep them from becoming dependent.

I guess I am a conservative.

This is funny

History Review . . .

Humans existed as members of small bands of nomadic hunter/gatherers. They lived on deer in the mountains during the summer & would go to the coast and live on fish and lobster in winter.

The 2 most important events in all of history were the invention of beer and the invention of the wheel. The wheel was invented to get man to the beer. These were the foundation of modern civilization and together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into 2 distinct subgroups: Liberals and Conservatives.

Once beer was discovered it required grain and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can were invented yet, so while our early human ancestors were sitting around waiting for them to be invented, they just stayed close to the brewery. That’s how villages we re formed.

Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to B-B-Q at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what is known as “the Conservative movement.”

Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting learned to live off the conservatives by showing up for the nightly B-B-Q’s and doing the sewing, fetching and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the Liberal movement. Some of these liberal men eventually evolved into women. The rest became known as ‘girliemen.’

Some noteworthy liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, the invention of group therapy and group hugs and the concept of Democratic voting to decide how to divide the meat and beer that conservatives provided.

Over the years conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.

Modern liberals like imported beer (with lime added), but most prefer white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi , tofu, and French food are standard liberal fare.

Another interesting revolutionary side note: most of their women have higher testosterone levels than their men. Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, dreamers in Hollywood and group therapists are liberals. Liberals invented the designated hitter rule because it wasn’t “fair” to make the pitcher also bat.

Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat and still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, Marines, athletes and generally anyone who works productively. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.

Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to “govern” the producers and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals remained in Europe when conservatives were coming to America. They crept in after the Wild West was tame and created a business of trying to get MORE for nothing.

Here ends today’s lesson in world history:

It should be noted that a Liberal may have a momentary urge to respond to the above before simply laughing and forwarding it. A Conservative will be so convinced of the absolute truth of this history that it will be forwarded immediately.

I work, save money, pay taxes, and protect my capital. I am not interested in Government fix this or fix that programs.

Including “fixing” Iraq, I presume.

I voted for “I never really knew what libertarianism meant”, because I didn’t and still don’t. All I’ve gathered is that it has something to do with blaming everything on the welfare state and thinking that all humans are isolated beings whose actions and thoughts have no causes or effects. Or something. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Over the years conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.

While entertaining for knee-jerk conservatives, it is a slap against the face of early America, which was built (through agriculture as pointed out) on the back of a “jackass”, not an elephant.

Mapleleaf… get a funny bone

It helps to have one (Including a spine)

I voted for “I never really knew what libertarianism meant”, because I didn’t and still don’t.

Libertarians believe that you have the right and responsibility to make the important decisions in your own life.

winter, actually the conservatives are sitting on a tree branch, munching on bananas and sneering at those goddamn librool eggheads and this fire thing they’ve been raving about.

Libertarians believe that you have the right and responsibility to make the important decisions in your own life.

Well that’s a broad carpet theory if I’ve ever heard one.

Including a spine

Oh a spine, I see. Do you mean the spine supremely demonstrated by the USA during the Yugoslavian war, as you exemplify incessantly?! Well world opinion actually agrees that it was a very good decision. But didn’t that spine belong to a president representing the supposedly weak left, at the vehement objection of the supposedly omniscient right?

Oh, THAT spine. Thank you sir, it’s been very helpful.

Pave, I have been there. I have been accused of buying a new Mercedes every second year with the agricultural subsidies, being a bloody hayhat, the usual scheisse you get being middle-aged white male in science & engineering (ranging from being dumber than a piece of railroad rail to being borderline autistic). With HKL uniform, you get spitted on above, when heading for the Metro at the railway station, you are called incompetent, wanker, a gay or all of the above, spouse killer (after a lady on the line 6, who really did that in the 90′s) etc. I think it’s something in human behaviour, that no amount of public awareness campaigns + other education can remove.

I’m just pointing out the “others” would be better off without such incidences.

“But didn’t that spine belong to a president representing the supposedly weak left, at the vehement objection of the supposedly omniscient right?”

Heh, that president-to-be was once in a middle of a bar fight between two drunken finns on a ferry en route from Stockholm to Helsinki. He was going in between, but was told to keep out as the drunks would stop beating each other and would start beating him together. I guess he didn’t learn the lesson…

Well that’s a broad carpet theory if I’ve ever heard one.

Well that sums it up in one sentence. Try Wikipedia…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

mapleleaf

A spine that does not let the first world trade center bombing go un-noticed, or the planned attack on our President as he visits Kuwait.

Yes, you libs do need a spine, as cut and run, as a central strategy will not work.

As the going get tough, the spineless want to leave.

You guys have to remember, we were for about 100 000 years or so very very homogeneous group of whity people, living IN COLD conditions and marrying cousins all the time, sort of whity Japanese and then, all of sudden we got a bunch of black people from Somalia. What a shock! BTW, name one black people country where trains run on time ?

Black people or brownish or people “who do not need sun anymore” are mostly living in de facto sauna, basically. In sauna, only the essentials works. Unless they have air condition. Stuff are happening in South America because they can now afford cooling themselves.

North Italian people are effective because of air condition but South Italians, what bunch of “niggers”. It has nothing to do with color of your skin, just temperature, temperature, temperature. Freeze bunch of Ethiopians and out comes a couple of Einsteins….ok, maybe that was racists but so it goes

“Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, Marines, athletes and generally anyone who works productively.”

Funny, I spent four months working on a Marine base overseas recently. I don’t know how many of them identified themselves as “conservatives,” but a lot of them really didn’t like Bush. I guess being constantly rotated through a war zone that never needed to happed will do that to you.

About Libertarians, they’re just future Republicans that want to sound cool to the youngsters…

Correction: happen not happed

Anonymous.

Darn. Libs all over this blog with no funnybone, no spine. Do you guys just drag yourselfs around or do you demand wheelchairs for free from the Government?

So the Marines that I spoke to that had done a couple of tours in Iraq are liberals with no spine? Somehow I doubt you would say that to their face, especially since some of them had arms the size of some peoples legs…

Yes, they are doing their duty to the bone. Trying to get ahead. But it should not be like that but so…..no friggin idea.

Anyway, you suck it up and use your vote and if you have energy, try to change the system.

I read the Wikipedia article and, sorry, I’m not very convinced. Maybe that’s just because I think that humans are essentially apes with clothes and cannot function without rules and leadership.

“About Libertarians, they’re just future Republicans that want to sound cool to the youngsters…”

That is not true at all. In fact I know many people who used to be republicans but are now libertarians. And I also know a lot of libertarians who voted for Kerry… most of them regret it now though, and wish they’d voted for Badnarik instead.

“Sure, there’s those minority of retards who are going to believe “they smell” etc..”

Phil, I guess you haven’t been talking with many Finns about that. The dislike of “the Russian smell” is quite mainstream. I’d say that Russians who get rid of the smell or don’t have it to begin with (and who speak Finnish well) face far less anti-Russian sentiment.

Sure, there’s those minority of retards who are going to believe “they smell” etc..

Well, if you ever get on a local bus with ladies going out to town – they do smell – of perfume. Now if they happen to use sandalwood fragrance -Finns don’t use that kind of perfume so of course the “foreigner smells”… Your diet also dictates how you smell. Finnish men on a Sunday morning can reek of alcohol sweating out from their pores. Smokers smell too, and say you’re smoking Prima you will “stink out” if everyone else is smoking Marlboro lights.

The thing is that the human olfactory sense is not as keen as say a dogs, but humans can smell and sometimes the sense works in the subconscious. As the combination of diet, perfumes & beauty products in Finland has been stable for a long time that “smell” you don’t notice. its like a guy needing to work in a sewer – one gets used to it. Now if someone comes and sits next to me after treating their hair with coconut oil, of course they “smell” as the coconut oil is something different from the surrounding “background noise” of smells. Now if I went someplace where everyone treated their hair with coconut oil, it’d blend into the background noise and wouldn’t be notied. Probably the locals would think I smelled funny as I used something than what they didn’t use everyday.

So yes, “people from a different region smell different”, but one lacks being a “foreigner” adapting to the different local “smell culture”. So if the “Finnish smell” requires you to splash green Mennen and eat pea soup and rye bread, then you can’t go on splashing YSL and eating reindeer spinchters…

Well, nothing changes here: the welfare state baiting is getting quite mechanical and unchallenging – take any unrelated negative aspect of Finland and connect it with the satanic system… Considering the state of Scandinavia, arguably the most advanced and just societies the humankind has yet achieved in modernity (admittedly a very little said there), it would be nice to believe that the welfare state would be the magic formula to achieve this level of development universally. I’m only afraid that in the Nordic cultural matrix it is more an ephemeral concequence than any fundamental cause and is already crumbling before the Anglo-Saxon style quarterly based market economy. Just some patience, Phil and you might well see lessened social mobility, more poor quality education and health care, high crime and slums even here. Though that would basically destroy the very raison d’être of this site, you would have to find another hobby…

Winter:

“I am not interested nor have I ever taken handouts, freebees, or even 2,000 on a credit card, after a storm. I will fix it myself, just stay away.”

So you paid a “market price” for your education, and your parents payd all the “lapsilisät” back to the state.

There is no lapsilisat in the US. Winter, I’m sure you have driven on roads, funded by the government. Maybe you have gone to a university, funded in part by the government. Maybe you have taken some medicine or had an operation. Many medical procedures and medicines are started in public universities and then liscensed to private companies. University researchers are public employees. Maybe you have shat in a toilet which then went into a sewer system funded by the government. Maybe you have slept on a nice bed, many of which use technology initially developed by NASA. Once again funded by the government…

Face it winter, there is all kinds of subsidies you take with out even knowing it. Unless you earn boat loads of cash, your tax dollars do not contribute more than you take out.

Thomas

I went to a PRIVATE University. Did you get that ……PRIVATE.

I have a SEPTIC system. All I need is power, and its from a PRIVATE Utility.

If the Government wants to spend my tax money, then so be it. I just do not ask for any back.

#100 But you still benefit from the roads, police protection, & national defense, to name a few things. And unless you hunt and grow your own food, the government has inspected it to make sure it’s safe to eat. The list could go on and on…

Actually here in southern Maryland you have to duck and cover during hunting season. My neighbor leaves his shells on my grass as he shoots ducks (In the air, but just barly so).

My guarden is a wrek. The wild bunnies are all fat. We need the fox to come back. Me thinks the fox did not duck and cover last year.

And to make things real bad, the beaver chopped down a tree for food. Now if I can only train him, I can make some real money.

Even the Government grass cutter will not come down my road. He says our dogs just chase him away. So no real service there.

And for all this I pay taxes?

All utilities are subsidized by the govt, the are given free land to run their lines. I’m sure it must be miles and miles of free land before they reach your mud hut.

Point is all people receive govt. subsidies. In the US, most people receive more than they contribute. It’s not shameful to use govt. handouts if it’s needed but it is shameful to abuse it. Many people who use it, abuse it.

Point is all people receive govt. subsidies.

Point is I do not demand it, I don’t expect it, don’t want it, in fact I try to give it back.

You can even have my SS, I am doing fine thank you, and I do not want to burdon my kids

Well, the guest poll wasn’t up there for too long, but it appears that after about 70 votes the “more’s” took a major drubbing

winter:
I went to a PRIVATE University. Did you get that ……PRIVATE.

You went to a university and spell like you do? I hope you didn’t pay too much.

Pay??? I get paid???? Darn I just knew I was missing something.

Everyone is racist. If you really think your not racist your having yourself on.

The guest poll didn’t last long now, did it?
Did the results proove uncomfortable for the host?

winter:
Pay??? I get paid???? Darn I just knew I was missing something.

You got paid for going to university? Darn, did you get free dental care as well?

Ah that Private University again.

It’s a good question of how this blog has changed my view on libertarianism. I must say it has remained unchanged but become more nuanced. I had read libertarian stuff before reading Phil and I think Phil’s blog is better than most libertarian websites, not least because libertarian views get challenged here. Regardless of what kind of political platform a blogger has, I like to read a post to the end before making my mind on it, even if I can see from the first line where it’s aiming at. In this case I actually think some of the posts are better argued at the end of the post than what the beginning promises. When Phil makes a good argument, I think I could see this issue from a libertarian point of view. When I feel that it’s a post that could only have been written by a libertarian and only libertarians get it, it makes me less inclined to see the issue from a libertarian point of view.

Whether we are non-libertarians or libertarians, I believe libertarian arguments will have more influence in twenty years’ time than they have today. I expect more libertarians in positions of power (perhaps in the corporate world or even in the military), even if there will not be a libertarian political party than can seriously challenge the top dogs of politics in most countries. Libertarianism will gain ground among at least some socialist parties so that the liberal values agenda will by promoted more than the economic agenda. Among conservative parties libertarianism will gain ground so that the culture wars agenda will not be as prominent as the free market agenda.

Maybe it’s just my feeling that the US liberals have been losing in the economic debate (which has given heart even to European conservatives) and European conservatives have mostly had to give up on their conservative values (which gives heart to US liberals that social conservatism will lose out to liberal values even there). In this way, the libertarian agenda is advanced by default, when the conservatives gain ground in economic issues and liberals in social issues. I’d expect Finnpundit (who is not a libertarian, and neither am I, nor am I a supporter of Finnpundit for that matter) to be even much more strongly of this opinion than I myself am. I’d probably disagree with him on the consequences but that’s a very possible trend.

Funnily enough, if the conservative gains in economic issues and liberal gains in social issues would be replaced by libertarian gains across the board, the results would be much more extreme. Since neither conservatives nor liberals (in Europe social democrats) believe in libertarianism, they are never bound to go overboard in their enthusiasm for more libertarian politics (they are rather adapting to a tendency toward more individualism, which has changed the essence of both conservative and liberal politics).

Nirva: would the libertarians who voted for Kerry regretted their vote had Kerry won? After all, their reaction can simply be that since they lost anyway, they’d rather have lost voting for their own guy. What about libertarians who voted for Bush (some twice)?

Kerry winning? Lets all send Kerry to fix the current Middle east problem. He said he was the go to guy (Reporting for duty), so lets send him in.

“Kerry winning? Lets all send Kerry to fix the current Middle east problem. He said he was the go to guy (Reporting for duty), so lets send him in.”

I would have thought that George W. “I’m a uniter not a divider” Bush would have been able to sort it out by now, especially since he had sooo much experience before he was “elected.”

My four-year-old could run the country better than that incompetent.

I feel that Finland is for the Finns, and you should deprot the Somalis to the U.S. They would fit in very well over here. The peace you had in Finland, that the Finns in the past fought for means nothing to them. December 6th is a day that holds great feelings to the heart of a Finn. Finland is not a melting pot the, U.S. was founded as one! P.S. Sure wanted to make it to Finn Fest in Astoria, Oregon which is going on from 26th to the 30th of July!

Its human nature to be racist
Finns are no exception to every country in this world

I come to Finland BEFORE the recession.
The racism I met was incredible.
” Where you from, why you are here, when will you go back to your home country? ”
This was typical 90% of the time.
Or: ” you must be unemployed, living from our tax money ” Me: No I am not, I make handicrafts. Fin: ” So you are taking the job away from a Finish gold smith “.
Me: ” No because I work with non precious metals “.
About the Somalis: The Finish government was obligated by international
agreements to take refugees. The Finish government was informed that hey had to prepare to take a certain number of Somali refugees. The Finish government did not make any preparations for the arriving Somali refugees.
They had to put them to hotels. Which made the Fins very angry but they were not angry at their government for not making preparations in time but were angry at the Somalis.
Remember also when after long discussion the Finish government agreed to take a huge number of refugees ( about 500 while Sweden agreed to take several thousand and without complain )
Finland hasn’t been my first country but nowhere did I ever experience so much hate and racism ( with the exemption of some parts in Belgium )
As her in Finland.
I am from South Europe.
I have been living in Germany before for 13 years.
Never ever was I being insulted in Germany in Bars and only ONE time on the street.
In Finland it was almost daily.
I had 3 kids with a Finish women and my jewelery business was doing fine.
Things are much better now.
My guess is that about 50% of the Fins are racists.
The older they are the more they hate.
I do enjoy a conversation here and then with young Fins. 25 or younger.
35 and older, most of them are full of shit.
Positive conclusion: About 50% of the Fins are OK
PS: It is OK for Finland to export 500.000 Finns but having 50.000 foreigners in Finland ( that time when I come to Finland ) is way to much.
It was also OK then for Finish pensioners to own entire villages in Portugal but when a French company wanted to build a factory in Finland ..
what an outcry come from most Fins. Finish banks again buying a factory in Belgium .. very good but NOT the other way round.

Racism in Finland is for the protcetion culture and genetical heritage.
How many truely succesful multicultural nations is there? USA is the worst case scenario to happen. Corruption, poverty, religious and cultural differences cause conflicts, increasing drugs and criminality. About genetical heritage.
USA is VERY heterogenous but Finland is VERY homogenous so we all in Finland like one big family(all are related to other one way or another)there are ups and downs in homohgenosity but they can someday be fixed. Outsiders are not allowed to intervene with our business or just immigrate to our land wich we and our family has worked so hard for. For ex. somalians came unwanted to Finland and what are they good for? Our nation has to use money on them and they are beggin all around the streets. Foreigners are allowed to come but on one condition: when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

PS. THOSE WHO DON’T KNOW DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FIN AND FINN OR FINISH AND FINNISH ARE STARTING TO GET ON MY NERVE!!!!!!