Banging your Head into a Finnish Wall.
@ 2:14 pm Way to avoid a headache - learn Finnish?!
As we’ve been skirting the immigration thing lately; here is one good human experiment to read for anyone having any imagination of just popping over to a northern waste and start digging gold like the people did in the Alaska Gold Rush:
Six Polish journalists were sent to Athens, Barcelona, Dublin, Helsinki, Lisbon, and London to look for work. Their mission was to portray themselves as ordinary job applicants and to describe conditions in each of the cities in blogs and newspaper reports.The journalists’ reports were part of “Next Stop Europe”, a joint project of three major media - the leading newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza, the radio station TOK FM, and the television station TVN24. The project examines the implications of large numbers of Poles travelling to other European Union countries to work.
Of course comparing huge cities like London and Barcelona is not fair. Dublin maybe, but their economy is in such a boom I had to take tourist photos of a “thing you don’t see at home” - vacancy ads in a shop window! Reading the story of finding work in Athens would be interesting. However the poor person sent to Helsinki gave up in a week already…
The other journalists found work in a week, but Ola Pezda was the only one to run into a wall. She says that her gender prevented her from getting work as a painter, and she was told that she might get work handing out the free newspaper Metro “sometime later”. At two employment agencies serving foreigners, Eures and Staffpoint, she was told that “nobody will accept an application form” if she does not speak Finnish.Helsinki is a rough place for foreign job applicants! Everywhere you go you need to know Finnish, as if it were a conspiracy of some kind. Nevertheless, nearly everyone speaks English, says Aleksandra “Ola” Pezda.“You can’t even get a job as a cleaner without a knowledge of Finnish. I was told that measuring and mixing modern cleaning chemicals is so demanding that English is not enough. They don’t really want foreigners here”, Pezda says.
Or maybe due to historical reasons we don’t want to speak in one language to the master, and in another language to the servant. How would it be, say if teaching Finnish to foreigners was forbidden?
And nothing is like at home…
At one point she tried St. Henry’s Catholic Church. In other EU countries, Catholic churches are meeting places where local Poles can swap stories. The church did not even have the typical “wailing wall” - a notice board for situations vacant and wanted. The only announcement there was a notice for a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. A monthly mass had been cancelled.
(Helsinki Catholic Bishop is Polish BTW)
So what is then the observation? Trade Unions are bad - no solidarity here…
Pezda was astounded to see the largest trade union headquarters that she ever seen anywhere. She suspects that the trade union movement might be partly to blame for the negative attitude toward foreigners in the workplace. Pezda met a number of Polish fitters working in the Helsinki area. She was shocked to hear that they were able to send home no more than EUR 500 a month after taxes and the commission paid to the temp agency. Pezda emphasises that Helsinki is nightmarishly expensive.
Yes, well, like *we* don’t know that??
OK, so I’d like to see a Finn go to Poland and find work - how easy would that now be?
What is the world coming to when people expect their employees to speak or at least be able to understand the language of the country in which they are resident? It’s barbaric. And don’t think that free money and training in the language is any excuse either. Poles should be able to come to to live in Punavuori and be given jobs immediately. That’s what the EU is all about.
The thing that most disgusted me is that the Catholic Church in Helsinki seemed to be some kind of place of worship rather than a social club for poor Eastern Europeans. It’s a certain sign of the moral degeneracy of this country.
Comment by finnsense — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
No fear, once you learn Finnish, there is a ton of other reasons why they will not hire you.
One employer even had the balls to tell me that I wasted my time and should have learned Swedish instead!
If you want to work in Finland, you need to have a skill that is in demand. That will be as helpful if not more than being able to understand what your boss is saying to you.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
The “speak finnish or die” part reminds me of an incident years back in a metro ride I was in. There was a group of young female tourists chatting happily, when an old pensioner started to bark at them “goddamit, when you’re in Finland, you’re supposed to speak finnish!” and similar - in finnish. That perplexed the girls, having probably no idea what the guy was on about.
I guess he didn’t take kindly of not understanding what he was eavesdropping.
Comment by Cthulhu — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
>…least be able to understand the language of the country in which
>they are resident?
Yeah, as if those other Polish reporters in question knew any Italian or Spanish or whatever. Gimme a fucking break.
Finland IS hostile towards foreigners in many ways, clear and simple. Is that so hard to admit?
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
I’ve once tried to get a job in a pizza restaurant run by a couple of immigrants in Finland. They did not hire me but I don’t suspect that the trade unions had anything to do with it. I guess the employers in general have very high demands for their staff in this country.
Comment by Auriga — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 3:33 pm
If you have 2 applicants and one of them can speak / understand finnish and the otherone doesn’t. Which one you would hire?
And i think we have more than enough applicants like the first one.
Comment by Plasma — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
AnonyMeaCulpa,
What other countries choose to do has no bearing on what Finland chooses to do. If it is considered standard in Finland that you must speak Finnish in order to get a job, that seems very reasonable. I wouldn’t employ a cleaner who I couldn’t communicate with and as Plasma sensibly points out, if you have the choice, you’ll choose the one who speaks your mother tongue. What’s hostile about that.
I’ve only come across one person in London who didn’t speak English. He was a barman and couldn’t understand my order properly. I thought he had no business working there.
Comment by finnsense — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 3:52 pm
No one said being an immigrant was easy. If i go find myself a pretty young polish chick, marry her and move to Poland. I’ll find myself in exactly the same fucking boat as i am here. I have to learn Finnish, and it’s been difficult so far. But that’s life. No one made me come here.
Comment by gopha — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 3:57 pm
I second what gopha said. I came to Finland with a good degree but when I was rejected for jobs on the grounds I didn’t speak Finnish I didn’t whine about it, I tried to learn Finnish and do less desirable work in the meantime.
Comment by finnsense — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 4:00 pm
“Helsinki Catholic Bishop is Polish BTW”
Not being Catholic myself so maybe I shouldn’t comment on that but at least sometime after the Bishop, the Most Reverend Prof. Dr. Wróbel came to Helsinki, there were some letters to the editor in some newspapers by parishioners protesting how conservative and dogmatic this bishop is. The previous Dutch bishop had been seen as more liberal and the liberal catholics had felt the parish to be a much more inclusive place before.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 4:35 pm
There are few things one should consider. First of all, right now, it’s employers markets here. There’s lots of domestic skill, highly educate people without jobs and if you are a foreigner, don’t speak the language, you’re in trouble. IF you want a good job, then you NEED to have something people want. If you don’t, you’re out of luck, but who can you blame really?
And that you could only send 500 euros back home, should I share a tear here? Welcome to Finland. That’s the way it goes and if you want more money, then you need the skills. Simple. You can’t just go and demand job and expect to be paid nicely.
Furthermore, even though it might seem racist to few PC cops, if you come from another country, Eastern European country or some other regions that are seen a bit ‘poor’, and you don’t have a job waiting for you, people assume you have no skills and you came to do crappy jobs to make a living. And usually they would be right.
If you want a good salary and a good job, you have to get the job first, THEN come to the country. Wandering around gets you nothing.
It’s tough for everyone. Not just foreigners.
Comment by Frustrated Finn — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
>What other countries choose to do has no bearing on what Finland
>chooses to do.
Eläköön! Eläköön! Eläköön!
Oh, definitely not. Koti, uskonto & isänmaa and all that moldy old jazz, right? But hey, cheer up, because didn’t Frank Zappa once say that jazz’s not dead, it just smells funny
But never mind. If Finland chooses to shoot its legs off in the long run - what with all this talk of future needs of foreign labour and everything - hey, no problem. No-one’s business but Finland’s either.
The soddin’ _stupidity_ of it all is what I find a it unsettling, though, because we live in a competetive world nowadays. And as you can imagine, this much-needed foreign labour - or the best part of it at any rate - will go where they feel most welcome.
And regardless of how you look at it, Finland is NOT that place. Though it can be argued that language requirements like this are just an icing on the turd
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 4:43 pm
I’ve only come across one person in London who didn’t speak English. He was a barman and couldn’t understand my order properly. I thought he had no business working there.
I was in Ireland in a fairly big hotel, and asked the barmaid (a stunning brunette) “can I have a pint of Guinness please”. Yeah, so guess what the answer was? - “What is pain kines, I no understand, sorry I come from Slovakia.”
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
AnonyMeaCulpa - *what exactly* “much needed foreign labour”?
- labour (as noted the union aspect) that will do work cheaper than the locals with worse working conditions?
- labour that will work in those booming industrial estates (with all the factories and jobs taken overseas)
The only “labor shortage” at the moment is looming in the healthcare sector. Well, we educate nurses all the time - but there is no tenures - so the trained nurses either move or get a real job. And in a hospital with elderly care I’d appreciate having a nurse who understands what I am saying…
So do you want to create a two-tiered society?
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
Finns doesn’t need foreigners. That’s their own choice. “Speaking Finnish” is only a good excuse and a very good excuse since finnish is relatively difficult language to learn. If foreingers need jobs, then they can go to other countries where they are needed. Let Finns live their own life in the middle of forest and don’t bother them any more. What Finns need are a good sauna, a lake, alcohols and nothing any more.
Comment by european — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 5:21 pm
It’s tough for everyone. Not just foreigners.
Yup, I think that’s it exactly. Maybe it’s best our welfare state makes it difficult for foreigners to get a visa here, it’s for their own good.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
It is really funny that foreigners ask something to Finns. Why do people interrupt other people’s life when they are enjoying their own way of life happily? Finns will live happily without foreigner’s advice nor any help. Forests provide enough things edible and usable and without any cleaners nor IT persons, Finns can live without problem in the forest enjoying sauna and cloudberry liquors and reindeers. Why foreiners?
Comment by european — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
OK, so I’d like to see a Finn go to Poland and find work - how easy would that now be?
Make that a gay black atheist Finn, since Poland is such a bastion of tolerance compared to Finland…
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 5:46 pm
I met a British guy living in Sweden who had similar troubles. He had been living there (in a hostel) for six months, but couldn’t find work because he wasn’t fluent in Swedish.
He complained about it, but I understand why no one hired him. Because in any situation he would be the weakest link. If he were working in a factory and somebody yelled something in Swedish like “the whole place is going to blow, everybody out!” he’d have to ask someone to translate it for him
Likewise when I lived in Tallinn, I had a hard time with some service personnel that didn’t speak Estonian OR English. Such situations require people that are fluent in several languages and it drains you of your time and patience and you have to worry if people understand you correctly.
Comment by giustino — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
Frankly, I’d consider anyone very lucky to get a job in a country where one doesn’t have a clue about the spoken language. (Temporary) academic positions like fellowships are often available where English skills will suffice, but those are among the jobs you find and secure for yourself before entering a country. If you just come and insist on finding something where you don’t need to speak the local language at all, you’d better be speak English at the least, and some sort of language teaching or work with foreigners is probably your best bet. In some places there’s more of that sort of work available than in others.
I’ve worked in the States; I spoke the language and did my best to learn more all the time. I’ve worked in Italy; as a PhD student fellow at an academic institution I could manage with English, but I learned to speak Italian nevertheless, as it made life so much easier and more fun. When I worked in the Netherlands (well, was a trainee at another academic institution, no one paid me a penny), I managed with English and by being able to understand a great deal of written Dutch with the help of my other language skills (never tried to learn that language, since I knew I was definitely leaving in six months). Some Finns I knew came to the Netherlands to live and work a little after me, and in spite of the very good English skills of almost every Dutchperson they took it for granted that they needed to learn Dutch. After a year in the country they speak good Dutch. And have nice jobs.
I’m not saying that Finnish employers never discriminate against foreigners in hiring (and a well-educated, well-connected, French-speaking, married-to-French-man friend of mine hasn’t had any luck finding a job in France either), but it’s self-evident that having no local-language skills definitely won’t help anyone in the quest. If Finnish is too much for you, then learn Swedish at least - that ought to be pretty easy to English speakers.
Comment by Paula — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 6:05 pm
The current unemployment rate in Finland is between eight and nine percent, which means that employers have no shortage of Finnish-speaking job applicants. There is no reason to hire someone who has the handicap of not being able to speak Finnish.
“She was shocked to hear that they were able to send home no more than EUR 500 a month after taxes and the commission paid to the temp agency.”
She’s shocked that they were able to send only double or more the amount that an average Pole makes in a month? I think 500 EUR is a decent sum to send home from any country.
Comment by Turjake — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 6:11 pm
I think Paula and Turjake hit the nail right on the head. I think the best chances for a non-Finnish speaking person to find a job in Finland are in the academic world and professional jobs, i.e. jobs where your colleagues use other languages on a frequent basis. And even then you must be able to show that you have some special skills that are more important to your employer than speaking Finnish… and this of course becomes more difficult if we are talking about jobs like flipping burgers or mopping floors.
It’s not always a question of speaking Finnish either… but rather a question of having local experience… just like it is everywhere else in the world. Of course the inflexible labor laws in Finland make finding a job even more difficult.
I also think that, similar to what Paula commented earlier, a lot of Finns who move abroad see learning the local language as a must… not as an option… regardless of where they move. Especially people who have already learned to speak other languages. At the same time, a lot of foreigners (especially English speakers) are simply against learning Finnish or any other language since it is difficult and time consuming… although I do know several who have.
Comment by The Dude — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 6:59 pm
When my family moved to Finland, my wife was fluent in Finnish, having been an exchange student here 1980’s. She was the one who had a job before touching the Finnish soil. I was unemployed for three months and studied the language, and then got my first job as an English-Polish-Spanish interpreter for a Finnish construction company, just because I am a structural engineer.
The language skills of our Finnish employees are amazing. We once counted that we have four Arabic, three Russian, and three Turkish speakers. Two of the Finnish guys speak Portuguese, French, and Italian, and we even have a Catalan speaker, and a Finn who’s Polish is absolutely perfect, and he also speaks Dutch, because of his Flemish wife. On top of this everyone speaks excellent English and apparently good Swedish or German. We have only a dozen people in plus two summer trainees.
Now, if you look for employment in Finland, and somehow show your unwillingness to learn the language, you get what you deserve.
Comment by Oregon — Wed, Jun 21st, 2006 @ 8:33 pm
I wouldn’t dream of going abroad to find work and expect to get by without knowing the language. If I managed to get a job in a completely strange country where I don’t speak the language I would consider myself extremely lucky. It’s difficult enough to get a job in Finland without much work experience and I certainly wouldn’t expect to get a very well paying job to start with. At the moment I’m doing my traineeship for my polytechnic studies and living on student benefits. 500e extra per month would more than double my income.
Comment by hobbes — Thu, Jun 22nd, 2006 @ 10:26 am
Well, I do understand those immigrants who don’t wanna learn Finnish. There should be some kind of reasons to spend time and learn any language.
In many european countries immigrants learn language and even able to find job with poor language knowledge.
But situation in Finland is totally different. It doesn’t matter whether you speak Finnish or not. If company needs foreigner - they hire him despite his language skills. If not, they simply discard his resume even without reading. I personally knew people who apply for the jobs and receive confirmation ‘Email was erased without reading’. So, if they don’t open email with resume to read about person’s skills and knowledges, what’s the reason to learn Finnish?
I’m sure in no other country first selection of resumes begin from sender’s name. That’s why immigrants in Italy, UK, France and all other countries try to learn language. In Finland immigrants know that learn or not, they’ll end with a job in cleaning sector. By immingrants I mean those who moved here permanently to live and not people who work on contract base for IT companies.
It’s enough to read survey results in Finnish newspapers. Vast majority of Finns would be happy to see foreigners working in cleaning sector. LOL:)))) So you need foreigners or slaves to clean shit after you?
Comment by Belino — Thu, Jun 22nd, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
Belino,
About not opening emails: That shit goes on everywhere, especially in the UK and US. When I was applying for jobs in the US, I found out after sending A LOT of email applications that often attachments from “strangers” are not opened because people here fear computer viruses…. even though it’s the hiring manager’s job to do so
Not really surprising given the shitty quality of anti virus software here 
Comment by The Dude — Thu, Jun 22nd, 2006 @ 6:05 pm
I don’t quite agree with Pezda’s conclusions there.
It’s certainly more difficult to find work without the local language (as it would be in any country) but it IS definitely possible. If she quit after a week she obviously didn’t put much effort into it.
“She says that her gender prevented her from getting work as a painter”
That’s bull surely?!?
Comment by maca — Thu, Jun 22nd, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
can’t stop laughing, really.
Before learning any finnish I STRONGLY advise to ask any russian guy you know - “Hey. what is Pezda in russian?” (do not ask girls please).
After hearing the answer you will understand why Ola Pezda did not find any job here…
Comment by Alex — Thu, Jun 22nd, 2006 @ 8:31 pm
#15 you’re so retarded. “and nothing more” You dumb fuck Finnish society is aging very fast and you will have to start employing foreginers to take up the lower middle class work. The population is too small to handle the huge rate of elderly. You must be missing a few teeth and banging you sister some place. start thinking about the future shit head.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:05 am
>Finnish society is aging very fast and you will have to start
>employing foreginers to take up the lower middle class work.
Yup. Was what I meant too. The only thing being that these foreigners won’t probably come because of our society’s hostility towards them!
So we’re shooting our feet off in the long run, just as I said in my previous post.
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 11:27 am
#29 and #30: In spite of what seems to be a widespread idea out there (particularly among English-only speakers), the fact remains we Finns do not speak Finnish in order to incovenience foreign workers, we speak it because it is our language.
Comment by Paula — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 11:53 am
>we Finns do not speak Finnish in order to incovenience foreign
>workers, we speak it because it is our language.
Definitely. But that doesn’t take away from the fact of Finnish society being hostile towards foreigners, with language demands as mentioned here merely being an icing on the hostility cake. Making those allegedly much-needed foreigners most likely go elsewhere!
Mikä muuten saa sut kuvittelemaan etten mä ole suomalainen, sivumennen sanoen? (Tr: What makes you think I’m not a Finn, BTW?)
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:06 pm
Fazer, Stockmann, Sibelius, Mannerheim, Torbalds …
I guess (from their family name) all these people are from immigrants descendants. Are they Finns or not?
Comment by european — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:24 pm
#32: “Mikä muuten saa sut kuvittelemaan etten mä ole suomalainen, sivumennen sanoen? (Tr: What makes you think I’m not a Finn, BTW?)”
Ei mikään. Missä välissä olen arvaillut kansalaisuuttasi mihinkään suuntaan? (In English: Nothing, since I haven’t been thinking anything about that either way, thank you very much.)
“that doesn’t take away from the fact of Finnish society being hostile towards foreigners, with language demands as mentioned here merely being an icing on the hostility cake. Making those allegedly much-needed foreigners most likely go elsewhere!”
Well, plenty of foreigners have made a career in this country just fine - in the past and in modern times. That said, I’ll grant you that Finnish employers are often needlessly suspicious of foreign job applicants, but please remember than firstly, Finnish applicants are at the moment having a hard time getting jobs too, and secondly, some sort of Finnish skills or at least willingness to learn are hardly an unreasonable thing to ask.
Comment by Paula — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
#33: Most Finns have at least a drop of some sort of foreign blood in their background when you go back a few centuries (I know I do). However, merely having a Swedish family name (or one ending with -us) doesn’t really mean anything, just so you know; this country has been partly Swedish-speaking for ages. As far as I know, the Sibelius and Torvalds families are pretty much Finnish, though Swedish-speaking.
But you’re right in that Karl Fazer came from a Swiss family, Georg Franz Heinrich Stockmann was German, and the Mannerheims came originally from the Netherlands.
Comment by Paula — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:07 pm
Paula in 35:
“But you’re right in that Karl Fazer came from a Swiss family, Georg Franz Heinrich Stockmann was German, and the Mannerheims came originally from the Netherlands”
But, can you name 5 or 6 recent immigrants to Finland that have been made it in Finland in the last few years, excepting some Nokia transplants?
Comment by Observer — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
>Ei mikään. Missä välissä olen arvaillut kansalaisuuttasi mihinkään
>suuntaan?
OK, my bad, sorry. Misunderstood you there for a while, that’s all.
>…some sort of Finnish skills or at least willingness to learn are
>hardly an unreasonable thing to ask.
Of course they aren’t. But the prevailing attitude still seems to be one of stonewalling anyone not fluent in Finnish, regardless of how long they’ve been in the country to begin with. Add to this the all-too-common racist standpoint of many Finns, and what you end up with is by and large a hostile society towards anyone non-native (or non-white at any rate). This just happens to be the sorry and stupid fact around here, and no amount of euphemisms you’ll care to write will change it.
Sad but true.
Granted, the job situation is bad for us natives too - which of course affects everything - but the basic tenet _still_ stands. And this being the fact, do you seriously think foreigners WILL come here later, when according to all demographic forecasts they really ARE needed???
Well, me neither. Thus we really _are_ shooting ourselves in the foot in the long run with this attitude - which, BTW, was my point all along…
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 3:02 pm
>…blah blah anyone not fluent in Finnish, regardless of how long
>they’ve been in the country to blah blah…
Ahem. Should of course be “regardless of how little time they might’ve been in the country to begin with” or something. HTH
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Fri, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
In my workplace, we had this cleaner from Mauritius. He is married to a Finnish woman and speaks EIGHT languages, including Finnish and Swedish (his wife is a Swedish speaking Finn). He complained to me that after four years in the country he was still unable to find anything other than cleaning jobs. He spoke French, English, Italian, Finnish, Swedish, Creole (natively) and others I can’t recall. I think he would be a pretty decent translator, but no one will hire him.
On almost every interview he was told he can’t have a good job unless he is computer literate and can write in Finnish. He was pretty pissed off, I can tell you. Anyways, I fixed him up with a computer and told him the basics. Now he’s learning to speak nerd and hopefully he’ll be able to get a decent job some time in the future.
I have my doubts. The market is really tough. Even I have been unable to find a better job and I’ve been looking for almost a year. The requirements for almost any job are unrealistic: You have to be young DI with years of work experience and fluency in Russian, Chinese or some other unlikely combination of requirements. Also, the starting salary would then be somewhere around 2000 Euros. That’s ridiculous! I don’t want to work in my current workplace anymore, but it seems I don’t have any choice in the matter. I’m bummed.
Comment by Fat Bastard — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 4:10 am
Being from Poland I can clarify two issues
about this story:
1. In all other places people could find a job within a week not knowing local language. It was whatever mean job: cleaner, dishwasher, construction apprentice. Except Helsinki.
2. It was not that some workers from Poland were not able to send 500 euro
month home. Their net salary after taxation and temp agency overhead was 500 euro!
The article was a big surprise for public in Poland too as picture of Finland is extremely positive there (Nokia, ski jump, Rasmus, Lordi effects:). So the article was like a bombshell destroying the image of country which i closed and dumb. Especially that this article was practically oriented and not mentionning that reason for all this is in the end very tight job market in Finland comparing to the other places.
Author of this articel instead asked in the next article explanation from the Polish guy settled in Finland, Stefan Widomski, who made up his rank to the vice-president of Nokia (actually retiring from there end of this month). His reply was that Finns do not like foriegners fearing them disturbing their peace and manners. He did not mention at all situation in job market. Which in a way is understandable since, being multimegamillionaire he does not have to look to such lowly thing.
Comment by wirek — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 11:34 am
What Wirek said is extremely unsettling. Hey you fellow Finns, we are fucking up bigtime here. No?
OK, the job market’s too tight to mention, granted, but if this attitude continues it’s the Suomi-kuva down the fucking pan anyway. Nice going, oh ye nation you…
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
@41
Finland Image is largely a lie. People who learn abut Finland only from the mainstream media get a very false impression. Usually the media are simply repeating what they’ve been told by Finns. Some journalists reporting on Finland have never stepped foot in the country. Thanks to the internet especially, it is now possible for people interested in Finland to get info directly from many expats resident in Finland. In many ways it is not a pretty picture. In serious matters like employment Finns are profoundly xenophobic. Outside work it depends on race and nationality.
Comment by XL — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
I’ll agree with Fred Fry and Fat Bastard that it doesn’t matter how many languages someone can speak and whether it includes Finnish. It’s a red herring. I have met countless multilingual foreigners with university degrees and they still end up working in pizza/kebab places or as cleaners.
Ditto for most Finns born of at least one foreign parent: having dark skin or a foreign-sounding name is sufficient to be kept out of the game.
Hessari recently had the story of a girl who was adopted at birth (from Pakistan, if I remember correctly) and who basically never had any other citizenship than Finnish and who grew up here with a completely Finnish-sounding name. Just the fact that she has dark skin was enough to make bureaucrats everywhere systematically ask to see her residence permit and for the police to disregard crime reports she occasionaly had to file and instead check if SHE had any criminal record.
The problem really is that an important share of the Finnish population genuinely feels that foreigners are not trustworthy. That their reasons for their prejugees tend to be far off the mark is irrelevant; they still act upon their xenophobism regardless.
Comment by Martin-Éric — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
I am tempted to tone down the comments
about xenophobia and racism in Finland,
at least regarding jobs.
Job market was always either tragic or bad or just very tight when booming. People never experienced good job market
so their were never light about jobs it is
like a life/death question for them. Jest hearsay about foreigners looking for jobs makes them shivering. So they express their negative attitude in whatever manner. But I strongly believe, have they been experiencing once a bustling job market like in Ireland their attitude would change fast.
Comment by wirek — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 7:38 pm
It’s not really racism. Finns fear. Traditionally Finns lived isolated and haven’t had much contact with foreigners. Finns have lived in the forest encountering only few people and reindeers. So the first response from Finns toward some strangers are fears. It’s like the attitude of Pacific Islanders encountering americans in the movie King Kong. That’s the origin of finnish attitude. You have to understand this mentality.
And finnish economy has never been good. Finns have lived relatively in poverty and their deep inferiority complexes toward foreigners strengthen finnish attitude against foreigners.
I don’t think finnish attitude will change soon. Basically even nowadays most spend their summer hollidays in the finnish forest instead of going to sunny Spain or Greece.
The best attitude is to understand this finnish attitude and leave this country as soon as possible. This is the only solution. Let finns live happily without seeing strangers.
Comment by european — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 9:39 pm
Of course Finland dont have to employ workers from another EU-countries, it’s choice of employers from Finland. But I wonder how u will exist in the near future when in Finland will live more elderly people… Who will works for them !?
In Poland we also will have problems like that. Even now, despite we are ‘young’ nation we have problems with enough medicine staff.
I remind that we are in one-big-market - European Union.
Comment by Polish Boy — Sat, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 11:37 pm
I am Polish living in Finland for over 5 years. Honestly I find Finland very hostile and Finns really friendly and helpful. I have never had any bigger problems than Finns with finding a job in Finland, no matter whether it was on the beginning, when I didn’t speak any Finnish, or now, when I do speak.
Of course, I had some problems with my employee who was discriminating me. But… you can find these kind of people everywhere. I would be really unfair generalizing and saying that all Finns discriminate foreigners.
If you come to Finland (or any other foreign country), it is YOU who has to make an effort to become a part of society. You have to come to them, open yourself and accept that being accepted takes time. Nothing for free. And it was truly hard for me here at the beginning, but it was worth it.
Greetings to all Finns and foreigners in Finland (and not only
Comment by Mistle — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 12:02 am
Belino, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. The situation for immigrants (especially dark skinned immigrants) for example in France is quite horrible. Have you really missed all the burning cars lately? They’re really not that happy over there and they surely feel that the French government and the people there are very prejudiced. Lo and behold, the french are no better than the finns.
And as for what comes to the “shit jobs” (cleaning etc.) it’s the same everywhere in Europe. White europeans give only shitty jobs to immigrants, especially if they happen to be black. The vast majority of street cleaners that I’ve seen in the UK have been black. Almost all of them actually, at least in the London area.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 12:56 pm
@Aboy - I really dont know why u compare polish workers with (generally) ileegaly immigrants from Africa and Middle East !
Comment by Polish Boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 3:39 pm
Aboy:
You are sooooooo precious.
Whenever someone criticizes Finland, your favourite debating technique is to find worst examples outside of Finland whenever someone find faults with Finland.
Your remarks in ¤48 is classic Aboy.
Why don’t you find better examples than Finland and strive to reach for that higher standard, than trash the rest of the world to make Finland seem better.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
I think it’s only fair to point out that other european countries are not that great either, especially when some people try to argue here that somehow they treat immigrants better elsewhere (which is not true).
I’m trying to get some sense of reality into this conversation by noting that even though people like to bash Finland with comments like “all the other countries in Europe are soooooo much better and sooooo much less racist” that it’s not really true, that prejudice and racism is alive and well all over Europe and in other places beside Finland as well. Especially in some central european countries who often pride themselves on how “civilized” and “tolerant” they supposedly are. Contrary to what some people even on this thread try to argue prejudice and racism are not problems unique to Finland. So all I’m asking is could you please be fair instead of this onesided Finland-bashing?
Many foreigners like to project only bad sides to Finland and to finns. That way they can feel superiour and they don’t have to face the fact that it’s really not that different in wherever they come from themselves. People are pretty much the same everywhere and prejudice can be found in every country.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Like someone already said earlier: Let’s send an openly gay, black atheist to Poland to search for a job and live with his same-sex partner. Let’s see how well he’ll be received by the oh-so-tolerant-and so-much-more-open polish people.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
Ã…boy, you are right. Every country has some problems and conflitcs every part of Europe. If you speak Parisian, you will not be too much welcome in Marseille. But here we are saying of the degree of such attitudes. For the reject of foreigners, the score is 9 of 10 in Finland, whereas that is 4 of 10 in other part of europe. You are saying 4 is the same to 9 since it is not perfect score. But we are saying 4 is lower than 9 and 9 is better. Do you see the point?
Comment by european — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
@Aboy: we are talking bout work in Finland and u are talking about homosexualists, rasists and atheists…
I don’t think that rasism, religion and sexually orientation is problem of this disscusion
Comment by Polish Boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 8:42 pm
No, Polish Boy, we’re talking about prejudice and discrimination and how according to some people it’s somehow a major problem _only_ in Finland. I do not believe this cause it’s fairly easy to see that there’s prejudice and discrimination in other european countries as well, and in some countries quite much more so than in Finland.
Ethnicity, gender, religious beliefs and sexual orientation have all of them often been the basis for discrimination and prejudice, thus they should be noticed equally. Although I understand that you as a polish person might be deeply catholic and so you perhaps do not see anything wrong with discriminating against gays, for example. If this is the case then I think that you have no right to criticize finns for being discriminatory because your own nation is in many ways way more intolerant towards some groups of people (i.e. gays and lesbians) than the finns are. Otherwise you might just come off as being plain hypocritical, you know.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:03 pm
>But, can you name 5 or 6 recent immigrants to Finland that have been >made it in Finland in the last few years, excepting some Nokia >transplants?
Well, “last few years” in Finland it takes a long time to get “into the grind”… lets see now: Neil Hardwick, Roman Shatz, Shefki Kuqi, Keith Armstrong, Wilson Kirwa, Phil Schwartzmann… celebrities off the tabloids… there are many more. Hardwick and Schatz aren’t that “recent” though.
Comment by Hank W. — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:14 pm
I don’t think finnish attitude will change soon. Basically even nowadays most spend their summer hollidays in the finnish forest instead of going to sunny Spain or Greece.
Of course the fact that most Finns spend their winter holidays there is not a factor at all in this discussion. It is also adviseable to completely ignore the fact that there is a very large Finnish colony on the Costa del Sol.
The best attitude is to understand this finnish attitude and leave this country as soon as possible. This is the only solution. Let finns live happily without seeing strangers.
No, that method is called giving up and being a wimp. It has nothing to do with understanding and adapting.
Comment by Anzi — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:18 pm
Besides, if I remember correctly even the jews have come under heave prejudice and antisemitism in Poland.
Radio Maryja, anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:21 pm
[Edit post #58: "..even the jews have come under heavy prejudice.."]
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:23 pm
@Aboy: hey hey hey - I dont criticize finns for being discriminatory !! I only wonder why u dont want to employe UE-foreigners. It’s sth another !
And something else, u said:
“I understand that you as a polish person might be deeply catholic and so you perhaps do not see anything wrong with discriminating against gays, for example”
????
:o 
Why u think I’m intollerant ? Now I’m little resentful… I don’t remember I have told it here !! I wonder why u are agressive for me, for central european people.. I will not discuss with u, sorry
Comment by Polish Boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:24 pm
Hank W. forgot to mention Umayya Ubu Hanna, who is a very active politician in the Green party and a journalist in YLE. She is also a successful author. I’m a big fan of hers, she is a perfect example of a person who has taken a lot of shit in the past, but has managed to adapt and make a vary good life for herself here.
The author Märta Tikkanen also comes to mind, although she is not a recent immigrant either. The football player Aleksei Eremenko, jr. was born in Russia.
One of Finland’s top 10 richest people is a woman of Russian origin who has made her fortune as a private entrepeneur.
I thought of these names in the shower, it took me about 10 minutes.
Comment by Anzi — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:25 pm
>Of course the fact that most Finns spend their winter holidays there is not a >factor at all in this discussion. It is also adviseable to completely ignore the >fact that there is a very large Finnish colony on the Costa del Sol.
This is typical finnish reaction. I am not saying there are no finns spending hollidays outside finland, but I am saying that still most finns spend their hollidays inside the country. Finns really lacks the understanding about the world outside finland, and don’t care what’s happening outside the forest.
>No, that method is called giving up and being a wimp. It has nothing to do with >understanding and adapting.
But when Finns refuse to change, who can force them?
Giving up is the only solution then.
Comment by european — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:31 pm
Polish boy,
Ok, I apologize if I offended you. I was just saying that if one is a zealous catholic and doesn’t see anything wrong with discriminating against some people on the basis of their sexual orientation then he/she might seem like a hypocrite when he/she wouldn’t accept discrimination in some other context. That’s all. I’m sorry if I made it sound too personal. Perhaps I was being a tad bit too provocative.
And I don’t think that it’s being aggressive if I say that people in other parts of Europe are also sometimes just like some prejudiced finns are.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:37 pm
european wrote:
“Finns really lacks the understanding about the world outside finland, and don’t care what’s happening outside the forest.”
Rubbish. I’m sure that the average finn knows a whole lot more about the world outside his/her country than let’s say the average french person does, for example.
I seem to recall the french people rejecting the constitution for Europe because of some domestic political issue which had practically nothing to do with the constitution itself but with the people who were supporting it and who were against it in France. Was this perhaps the kind of “enlightened european attitude” that the finns should adopt?
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:56 pm
@Aboy, yes, here u are right - reject of the European Constitution was against french politics, not against UE. I know it cuz I just was there, in France when it all took place. I lived by french family and we discussed about politic a lot. And u shouldnt adopt it.
And going back to Poland…u should know that Poland isnt only Radio Maryja and stupid politics… If u are interested in it u should know that few weeks ago it took place in Warsaw gay pride, and it didnt cause occasion for acts of vandalism, as it happened last years. U should know, that young polish people are really another than elderly or middle aged people. They have really different (I mean: better) opinion about things such us tollerance or rasism…
Comment by Polish Boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 10:35 pm
Aboy:
Your remarks particularly in 52 and 58 etc. are even more classic Aboy.
You attack some poor Polish because he lamented that it was difficult to find work in Finland. He is apparently a well-meaning type who simply came to Finland in search of opportuntiy.
Because of his rather bland remarks (look at his largely conciliatory remarks in his posting in 46), you then in 52 and 68, end up criticizing Poles for being anti-semitic, anti-gay, anti-black etc. in retaliation to his statement that was hard to find work in Finland (which no one disputes).
Give the guy and the Polish nation a break.
I think that we all agree that Finland will eventually need immigrant workers such as this Polish guy.
Don’t trash well-meaning types who invested alot of time and effort to reach Finland because in a few short years you will properly start to recruit them, and the recruitment process will be made more difficult when you trash them now.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 11:07 pm
The prejudice and discrimination in Poland was just one example of how these phenomenon can be found just as easily in other european countries as well.
“Give the guy and the Polish nation a break.”
I could ask the same for Finland from many other people writing here. This onesided Finland-bashing is getting really old really fast.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 11:19 pm
Aboy:
But, the poor guy wasn’t trashing or bashing anybody.
All he did was come to Finland legally looking for a job.
And indicated that it was difficult. And perhaps, even looking for advice.
He spant alot of time, effort and money to come to Finland in good faith to find work. Perhaps, naively.
In any case, he did not come to Finland to bash it.
But, guess what, when he returns to Poland, he probably will bash Finland.
Keep up the good PR work for Finland.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 11:27 pm
Hmmm, I actually do know some fellow finns, who spend their summer holidays abroad. Their motivation is to ensure at least two sunny weeks, but really, what do you learn of the foreigners out there as a tourist. I think it requires a deeper dive.
Personally, I rather stay here in the forest for the summer. First, in the south it comes dark also in this time of the year and I demand a full refund for that damn 6 months eclipse. Just like the french scientist Maupertuis wrote on his degree measurement expedition to Lapland in the 18th century. Second, it makes much better sense to travel in the wintertime and the multitudes, even from the deepest forest, really hit Las Palmas then, but like I said, what do you learn as a tourist. Third, returning once more from a worktrip to Noordwijk in the Netherlands, I think I learned a lot more in 3 days, than by laying for two weeks on their splendid beach.
OK, I’m really from the forest big time, but what do you know. Our dentist married an all-american smalltown girl and she fitted in, like a nose to the head. And that was in the dreaded 70’s and the deepest Kekkoslovakia. Another unforgettable encounter in the forest (definetely not as in Yrjö Jylhä’s poem with that name) was a French (or was he a Belgian) artist, who was travelling there by foot, in the middle of the freezing winter and -nowhere, even in our sense of the word, with only very light clothing. After we defrosted the guy in sauna, he made almost a local celebrity with his stories from his walking trips all around the world. Heck, the hicks are very interested what happens outside the forest. Just don’t tell them, how to run their businesses and everything goes fine.
And finally about the subject. Don’t apply for the jobs, for which the natives are piling up in työkkäri. Be a Russian microwave engineer or a Polish signal processing guru and you are in.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 11:33 pm
You’re beating a dead horse, dear Anonymous. Would you mind stopping it? The smacking noise is distracting. I can almost hear the violins already and can hardly hold back the tears.
Now, you wouldn’t by any chance actually happen to be dear old “Finnish honesty”, would you?
Comment by Ã…boy — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 11:35 pm
The change of direction in this discussion reminded me of a very old joke from the time Poland was still under communism. I can’t remember it all, but the point of it was that a Russian communist, unable to explain to an American visitor the imperfections of the Soviet Union, answered, irritated: “And in your country they beat up blacks!”
I really don’t think it is wise or fair to comment on “antisemitism” or “intolerance” in Poland without actually experiencing it. It is an issue that has been blown out of proportion by the media, both in Poland and abroad, where media often copy the most sensational pieces of news from the Polish media and exaggerate them even more. It is part of a larger thing (politically) which would take too long to discuss or explain here.
I know Polish people who are gay and have never experienced discrimination of any kind. Actually, I have never known any gay person who has. Antisemitism - you hear about it a lot for some reason, but I think it’s safe to say it doesn’t really exist. If it existed before WWII - these are the times I don’t remember; and don’t forget those countless people who risk their lives to help Jews survive during the war hiding them from Germans. There were more of such decent people - I believe.
You might meet some primitive people who dislike foreigners from some countries, but that is rare. The predominant attitude towards foreigners is positive. Of course, Poland is a country where the unemployment is high and so is the crime rate, and unfortunately things do happen there, but to all people, not just foreigners. It is a country with many problems, but you would really need to read some history books to understand them. It is impossible to discuss these things properly here.
Comment by A. — Sun, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 11:52 pm
@ A. - u are talking very clear and wise. I see u really know a lot about Poland. U are from Poand, or from Finland ?
________________
@ Anynomous (post 66.) - I’ve never been to Finland, so it’s untrue that I’m desperated or sth like that
Comment by Polish Boy — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 12:38 am
I’m kind of from both - I come from Poland, but my home is in Finland now.
The two cultures are actually very close. I found it very easy to feel at home here. Being accepted or not is another thing. It really saddens me when Finns say, or rather write
horrible things about Poles, especially that most of the time they really don’t know what they’re talking about. Fortunately, all the Finnish people I know who have visited Poland have fallen in love with it 
Comment by A. — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 1:00 am
Well written, A.
Personally I just find it a bit irritating how some people are so eager to badmouth Finland with such fervor even though their places of origin are nothing to write home about either. It’s that pious, holier-than-thou attitude that one can smell from some writers even in this thread (and also in numerous other threads in this blog).
When you and your people are at the receiving end of constant whining, bitching, belittling and contempt you begin to wonder if the criticizing person really is in any position to slander your country in such a way. That, I guess, is the point even in that joke of yours: the american feels superiour and laughs at the russians even though his own country is really not what it’s cracked up to be either.
I do of course realize that there are problems in Finland, like there are everywhere. But I object when people start talking like Finland was the only place where there are problems. That is just load of bull and totally hypocritical.
Comment by Ã…boy — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 1:10 am
@A. Both cultures are very close.. What u mean ? It’s another nation, another language group, not our neighbour… so what ?
That can be interesting
Comment by Polish Boy — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 1:53 am
Ã…boy (74), I see your point of view. Don’t take it this way because no one intends to badmouth Finland here. You wouldn’t believe how happy I would be if at least some things in Poland worked the way they do in Finland. My friends there can’t believe how easy and clear some things are, e.g. the tax system. Even looking for a job is easier here (LOOKING for it, not getting it!) thanks to the excellent internet job sites. A lot of things could be better or even better, too, but overall this is a beautiful country with a lot of fantastic people and an unforgettable character you won’t find anywhere else, and if some foreigners decide to stay here, it is just because they like it. No one would move here if it was all so bad, would they?
The issue here is that perhaps Finnish people would benefit from trying to be a little more accepting towards the residents of this country born elsewhere. I don’t mean Finland should welcome huge crowds of foreigners, but - there are no huge crowds coming here to live. There are some people who ended up here for various reasons, for example came here as exchange students, stayed here a bit longer and liked it too much to leave (the Finnish authorities were really taking serious precautions against it, in case you don’t know - I had to sign at least twice a paper stating that I realised that after graduating I had to immediately leave Finland). Or people who came here with their Finnish spouses. These people wouldn’t be here any more if they hated the country. These are the people who like this country, feel part of it, have a lot of respect for the way it is run and would make excellent citizens if given a chance. But if they try and try for many years - we’re talking years here - to get a job, to get a promotion etc., they will just become totally disillusioned and leave, and if their experiences have been really horrible, yeah, some of them may start badmouthing Finland then. I must say that if I had known earlier that nationality was the main criteria here, I would have started learning Swedish much earlier (I love the North with its winters, you see!
so I don’t have that many options). And, yeah, for many Finns there are “better” and “worse” nationalities. As a Pole, I have to work a lot harder to find work than e.g. an American. Although it’s much easier for us to learn the Finnish language than for them 
From your point of view, what is being said here may look like complaining and whining, but a lot of people have had a very hard time here. I personally never had the time to whine because I spent all my time looking for jobs and applying for them. To get a job for two weeks, I had to send 400 applications. To get another one (2 hrs per week at the start), I had to send 600. One year I applied for almost 500 jobs between January and May and then went to Ireland for a few months to save some money because I couldn’t get anything at all for the summer, not even cleaning (I can’t work in my profession in the summer). I applied only for the jobs I could do and had experience in. And, yeah, I do speak Finnish - when I dare; a lot of the time I simply feel discouraged because many people have been impolite to me after hearing my not quite perfect Finnish. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not whining, I do have some work sometimes and at the moment I don’t have to rely only on myself any more, as I did for 6 years, so I love my life as never before. But this is just to explain what scale of things we are talking about here. In this situation, the official invitation of the Finnish authorities directed towards foreigners, which the Polish journalist wrote about, really looks like a bad joke. It would be better to specify that Finland needs professionals ONLY in a few specific sectors.
Comment by A. — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 2:04 am
Ã…boy, that’s right. Finland is not the only country with problems. But what i see the difference is that finns don’t want to accept the problem. France has some pros and cons and french people casually accpet both pros and cons. Germany has some pros and cons and they accept both. Belgian, Dutch, Swedes, etc….
But finns are totally different. Even though they see the problems themselves simply they ignores and pretend that there are no problems and advocate their country.
This is the reason why always get the highest score from World Economic Forum and others. Finland is a country with corruption as any other countries, but when finns are asked how they think about their country, finns always say Finland is the cleanest country and they get the highest scores.
But covering up is not the solution!
Even in this board, we see finns denying the existence of problems. If there are no problems and they don’t need to think about the solutions. Very easy attitude.
Comment by european — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 2:22 am
Polish Boy (75) - I really don’t know. This was just my experience, but not only mine. I guess a lot depends on where and how you grew up - Poland is a vast and varied place with a lot of cultures and ways of doing things
But there are similarities in our histories, for example - what a shame so many Finns don’t know or remember that! What else, hm… we are clean. And we take off the shoes at home. A little thing but it matters if you like crawling on the floor in your spare time 
Perhaps it’s also the differences that made me feel at home, actually! Finns is are generally very accepting and tolerant (in other situations than employment). You can wear what you like, behave the way you like, talk to others or shut up and stare into space if you like and no one will mind or be surprised. When in Ireland I took a bowl of salad for breakfast, people were looking at me like at an elephant on a parachute.
And as for the languages, Finnish works in very much the same way as Polish. It has a similar word order and generally a similar logic. The only thing is that the words are all different
I had a much easier time learning Finnish than German. It’s a shame it’s so hard to use it. Many Finns expect your Finnish to be absolutely perfect if you want to speak it. You need a very thick skin to actually use it with the natives.
Comment by A. — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 2:22 am
European (77) - can it be that Finns just really don’t like discussing what they see as THEIR own problems with “strangers”? Most of the Finns I know do criticise many things in their country among themselves, perhaps also in the presence of foreigners they know well and do not see as strangers any more. But they are also quite patriotic and defensive of their country. I’d say they might feel much more connected to their country than many people elsewhere. Perhaps they also take criticism very personally - hearing that Finland is xenophobic, they may think: right, it means I am xenophobic and I’m not, I have a few foreign friends! I can understand that - I myself feel disgusted reading some strange and untrue opinions about both Poland and Finland.
Perhaps a good solution would be - try to see foreigners living here as part of your society? Especially that many of them already feel part of it. They are not here illegally, so how about accepting their right to be here and live, work, have families just as Finnish people do?
(The way you feel reading the word “accepting” will tell you whether you are xehophobic or not
)
Comment by A. — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 2:44 am
I always find it very strange when I hear or read comments like number 77. I have always thought that if you listen to Finns talk about their country, all you hear are complaints, whining and “how much better the Swedes do it”. But maybe this only happens among fellow Finns, like A. said above.
Or maybe Finns are finally getting tired of always being solely on the receiving end of the criticism and are starting to dish some of it back. This is what’s going on in this blog as well, most people only correct the downright lies and slander directed towards us, or try to give a Finn’s point of view and some historical perspective to certain things.
As for the French taking criticism directed towards their country well…bullshit. Unless, of course, the criticism comes from a fellow Frenchman. Same goes for the Swedes.
Comment by Anzi — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 10:12 am
Anzi,
True. You should defend your country against any lies and slanders.
But, I think that the Finnish reaction is exactly what “A” says in #76 and #78.
Most of the foreigners came to Finland with very possible feelings towards it.
Finns are somewhat responsible if they, in effect, have forced many of these foreigners to adjust their views of Finland to a substantially less favouralbe image of the country.
Why? Finns - or at least a large minority - do not like foreigners living in Finland. And, as a foreigner, you never feel completely accepted or at home.
Some of the foreigners have, over time, swung from passionate Finland lovers to Finland haters, as a result. Some - like Finnish honesty - have really gone off the deep end.
I myself loved Finland at first. My problems with Finland was not with employment (I had a decent job), or the economic system (I mostly was a supporter of the welfare system, and was never really very critical of it).
It was the people issue. Of course, Finns are generally unfriendly or reserved even among themselves. But, ¨for foreigners in Finland, there is an extra dimension that only foreigners in Finland feel. And this feeling of not being wanted just builds up over time to the point where you can no longer deny it to yourself..
The reason that I stayed in Finland was that I had a number of good friends, and abit out of laziness and inertia.
However, over time, I just decided to move on.
My family situation wss flexible, and it was relatively easy to move my household.
I left many years ago, and sometimes I do regret it. I left behind my good Finnish friends who I miss. But, overall, it was the right decision.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 10:37 am
“It would be better to specify that Finland needs professionals ONLY in a few specific sectors.” (A., post 76)
That’s certainly the way Finnish employers act. As long as they are unwilling to hire foreigners, it’s wasting everybody’s time to try to attract foreigners here. Of course a lot of them act like they’d be happy if they could run their business or whatever without any employees, foreign or Finnish.
“Finnish works in very much the same way as Polish. It has a similar word order and generally a similar logic. The only thing is that the words are all different.”
WTF?! I’ll have to give Polish another try, some day…
Comment by prince of dorkness — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 11:22 am
I have to say that you have very good insights, A.
Like Anzi said, it’s certainly not true that finns do not see anything wrong with Finland. Sometimes I feel that finns compete on who dislikes Finland the most and who can find most that is wrong with the country. Somehow I see an allegory to the blacks of the USA in here. The blacks in america may use the word “nigger” when addressing eachother and it’s only taken as a sign of affection or humor, but if a white person makes the mistake of saying it they certainly will not tolerate it.
But to be honest I think that other nationalities really do not receive criticism about their countries from foreigners a whole lot better either. At least the italians, spanish, french and english people that I’ve talked with have had a very patriotic and ideal picture of their respective countries and couldn’t see much anything wrong with them.
Comment by Ã…boy — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 11:53 am
“Fortunately, all the Finnish people I know who have visited Poland have fallen in love with it…”
I second to that. I have few pages on my passport full of Polish stamps, as I had frequent worktrips to ‘Instytut Lacznosci’ at the outskirts of Warsaw and to the phone operator Centertel. I still have one faxed invitation from the Centertel laboratory: “Take the capacitors with you and come to Poland.” Now if anything is ‘reilu meininki’, that is.
On taking critique on one’s country…Well, Irish people like to tell Irish jokes, but heaven forbid you to tell them one, without being one. It’s the same here.
About being in denial mode on problems, as european says up there. OK, I can’t go around telling the foreigners, what they should feel about my country (or letting them define, what I should feel about it), but I agree on one point. Nothing is really fixed in Finland, unless there is a full scale catastrophy on. No money from the council for the warning sign, until someone gets killed. It is considered to be a problem, if it quintuples the price of Koskenkorva, ends Tallinn trips and gets the sauna banned.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 1:37 pm
I still have feeling that attitude towards foreigners in Finland is dictated by the job market.
Imagine that suddenly job market in Finland heated up to the sauna level:).
Meaning something like in Ireland. After deep initial shock and desbelief Finns would enjoy jumping from job to job and up the salary ranks. And then they would be friendly welcoming hordes of foreigners pouring in….
The problem is that there will never be hot job market in Finland, rather chilling wind blowing all the time
Comment by wirek — Mon, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 9:01 pm
One of the differences between Poland and Finland when it comes to intolerance is that it would be very hard to imagine a guy like this in a Finnish government:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Lepper
All the Poles I’ve spoken to say very unkind words of this Lepper character. If there is a negative opinion about Polish politicians abroad, it’s people like him that reinforce that opinion.
The explanation offered for the Lepper phenomenon is the collapse of Soviet-style agriculture in those territories that Poland got from Germany after WWII. This guy has then become the mouthpiece for those farmers who had no place in the new economy, finding all sorts of targets for the frustration of his people.
I’m sure he’s not representative at all of Poland, indeed I’ve yet to meet a Pole who likes him but giving him a cabinet position as minister of agriculture sort of makes him a representative and ambassador of Poland if you know what I mean.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 11:01 am
An excellent portrait of Mr Lepper (currently Poland’s Deputy PM and minister for agriculture) was last year at the beatroot blog. The blog entry’s prognosis for Lepper in the presidential elections was 12% (I think he then got 15% and third place):
http://beatroot.blogspot.com/2005/10/presidential-candidate-andrzej-lepper.html
“He has made anti-semitic remarks in the past, which is probably where the ‘far right’ tag comes from. He has praised Goebbels for his mastery of the media, and Hitler for his ‘economic policy’.
But he has also expressed regard for someone who is usually thought to be a bit of a basket case, the President of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko. He supported Lukashenko’s successful attempt to change the constitution so that he could stand for a third term as head of state. Lepper thinks that he should be president ’till he dies.’”
I’d like to add that Lepper has later on dissociated himself from his previous anti-semitic remarks. He has a weird tendency to flip-flop, to say one thing and then the other. Some say he’s far left, others far right, he’s certainly far out.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 11:27 am
Helsinkian, that is one politician from one party and if you know more about Polish history and the present situation, you know that it’s just one bit of a very complex thing. People who voted for him and his party are, as you wrote, frustrated and disillusioned and disappointed in politics in general. The fact that he got so far shows how many of such people there are in Poland. And, although I am not an enthusiast of this man, I must say that I was really surprised at how his manners had changed. I hope the change goes deeper than that.
And as for Polish politicians, this is really not the worst case. For 10 years Poland had a president with a communist background who, before taking the office, basically stole 100 mln dollars (not zloty!) from the state. I’m not sure if you’ll find anything in Wikipedia about that.
Yeah, Poland would be a different country now if it hadn’t been for some bad politicians, and the communism. All that is wrong in Poland now has its reason in the years of communism that, remember, Polish people didn’t choose, it was imposed on them after the war when Poland was basically given to the Soviet Union. Finland was lucky - the same could have happened here.
Comment by A. — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
A.: “Finland was lucky - the same could have happened here.”
Absolutely true. Sure I’m very interested in Polish history. You’re absolutely right in that Lepper is just one politician but I think he is the one politician many people wouldn’t want to see in government, even as a junior partner to the conservatives.
I also understand perfectly well why Lepper got his post in government.
In Finland, we had a small-farmer populist party (SMP, Suomen Maaseudun Puolue), the precursor of today’s True Finns. This party was taken into a coalition government in 1983 and when they left government in 1990, their support was about half of what it had been when they entered government. Urpo Leppänen was quite a character as minister for labour between 1983 and 1987. Whereas Leppänen seemed like a joke to many people, he wasn’t a mean person like this Lepper seems to be.
Yes, the idea is to civilize Lepper by giving him a post in government, teach him to talk correctly and act according to the dignity of a cabinet minister. This is why the conservatives picked him as their junior partner and in 2009 they expect his support to have dwindled (since the Lepper supporters are supposed to be morons who prefer the loudmouth from the gutter to the elegant deputy PM who moves in European salons).
The difference between Finland in 1983 and Poland in 2006 is that the Finnish small farmer populists, those two who got the cabinet posts then (Pekka Vennamo and Urpo Leppänen) didn’t need to be civilized.
Today we of course have Tony Halme in parliament, whose makeover from angry loudmouth to elegant parliamentarian hasn’t been as successful as that of Lepper’s in Poland.
Halme (True Finns MP) may lead one to all sorts of conclusions about the state of Finnish politics, as Lepper has done in Poland (the collection of Halme quotes must be as rich in Finnish as the collection of Lepper quotes in Polish). Many Finns would be shocked, though, if Halme would one day emerge as the leader of the second largest party in government.
I underline yet again that the small farmer populists in Finland who entered government in 1983 had shown considerable backbone in politics during the Kekkonen years. They were popular in Finland because they had been a true force of opposition at a time when all other parties of significance had supported Kekkonen and undermined democracy by doing this. Finnish small farmer populists were in no way anti-democratic or friends of dictators as the Lepper movement is in Poland. Sure, the idea is to make a democrat out of Lepper by giving him government responsibility. Either Lepper will become like all other politicians or other politicians will become more like Lepper, it can go either way. It may indeed be so that Lepper, who is very willing to distance himself of his previous statements, may present a case of having changed and the rise to power having civilized and democratized him. But it’s a very risky gamble. It also creates a slippery slope pattern where the next Lepper (antidemocratic politician of either left or right) also might get a government position but there would be no guarantees that the next populist might abandon populism in exchange for power.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
More Finland vs. Poland stuff… Wikiquote Tony Halme page in Finnish:
http://fi.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tony_Halme
only two quotes are available in English:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tony_Halme
Wikiquote Andrzej Lepper page in Polish (sadly no translations):
http://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Andrzej_Lepper
So there are less Halme quotes than Lepper quotes. Halme is a minor politician in Finland, Lepper a major politician in Poland. Lepper’s support has constantly grown in Poland, whereas Halme has seen some of his support go down, not so much because he has failed to transform to a respectable parliamentarian as much as because his personal life and court appearances have affected his image.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
A:
Two questions:
1. What is the name of the girl that keeps you in Finland? She must be quite ok.
2. Have you ever thought about sending something like this as a file attachment to your CV as background material or a form of reference? If nothing else works, why not try it?
It shows a study which indicates that Poles have a higher IQ than Finns, in general.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2105519,00.html
Professor Vanhanen, the sociologist father of Finland’s president, has also indicated and confirms in another study that Poles are smarter than Finns in general. Perhaps, you can find that one and attach it also. That would be a big hit.
Best of luck in your job search.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 4:42 pm
I agree that it is a dangerous gamble, as you said. That is why the decision to give him this position was very half-hearted, as was the coalition with his party. Sadly, without this coalition the parliament couldn’t work.
Lepper’s supporters are in a way anarchists. They are people who are angry because of all that has gone wrong since the communism ended and disappointed with the politicians that let it happen. They were also against Poland joining the EU e.g. because they were afraid everything would get even more expensive. If the situation in Poland starts to significantly change for the better, the number of his supporters will drop. But if it gets even worse, next time Lepper’s party may even win the elections.
Comment by A. — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
To Anonymous: heehee, thanks for the link, I never saw that
My family comes from the part of Poland which lies on the border with Germany, do you think I should also add that?
I have a job now, a part-time and very irregular one, but I don’t mind as at least I am earning something while I’m working. I got it in one of those places where being a foreigner is not seen as a disadvantage - there are some very decent people in Finland
But I have to keep applying for more work all the time. The longest time I was without a job here was 6 months and that was when Poland was already in the EU.
And as for your question number 1, it’s not a girl, it’s a man
He’s from Sweden so I was really happy to see the position of his country on the list you linked 
No, I don’t think it would be smart to send this together with job applications.
Let’s be nice to Finns: some study proved Finns are best in Europe at understanding what they’re reading
Comment by A. — Tue, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 5:00 pm
Hello everybody!!
It is very nice and hot discussion and I must admit that I really like to read your posts. But the reason for starting this discussion were problems with getting job in Finland for foreigners. I understand that most of Finns remember times when it was huge rate of unemployment here, I understand that some of you are afraid of foreigners but I don’t really understand businessmans attitude for e.g. Poles who are looking a job here. If I would have a business here and once came to me a guy who wants to get a simple, physical job for 5-7 euro per hour doing the same things as my present (or potential) Fin worker wants to do for (let say) 9 or 10 euro per hour I would have chosen this cheaper guy. And here is something personally for Ã…boy: If I had a bussiness in Poland and possibility to give a job for a Black-Gay-Muslim-No teeth-Bold-Stuttering person who wanted to work for a half or less than my present Polish workers doing the worst things I would CERTAINLY give him a job because in normal working economy the most important thing is reducing costs of work and maximising income!!! It makes no difference for me who is the person who wants to get a job. Most important is what he can do and how much he want to be paid!! But in Finland it seems that the employers does not care about working costs and they are simply chosing those who are more expensive-but OURS. This is probably caused not because of intolerant but simply - because of STUPIDITY. Do you agree with me? Maybe there is something more important than money they are earning for employers here??
Comment by Grzegorz — Wed, Jun 28th, 2006 @ 11:51 am
Grzegorz: this something more important is called unions and collective bargaining that limit the power of employers in Finnish society.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jun 28th, 2006 @ 12:37 pm
So why Finland always winning competitions for being the most competitive economy on the world?? What you wrote is pure negation of competitive economy…
Comment by Grzegorz — Wed, Jun 28th, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
Grzegorz,
I don’t know or care much about those studies/competitions, but one possible explanation might be that if every businessman in Finland paid his employees less, there would be fewer people buying anything here (most of our businesses sell most of their stuff to the domestic market), hence less business all round. Competitiveness of individual companies ^= competitiveness of the whole economy. Cutting domestic demand is a tried and tested way of putting an economy into a nosedive.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jun 28th, 2006 @ 2:35 pm
The lack of domestic demand is an old explanation for the 1929 Great Crash and the Great Depression that followed it. The high wages and relative employment security offered by major US companies in the postwar years have been used as an explanation to American prosperity, as domestic demand got up. Libertarians would probably argue that’s just a liberal myth.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Jun 28th, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
Finland has a 9% official-figure unemployment, or 18% including hidden unemployment. My experience - as a Finn - has confirmed that it’s very hard to get a job in this country, unless you have some work experience to show. One job I applied to was taking office garbage cans and sorting the contents: 20 applicants, one selected.
I can imagine how hard - downright impossible - it is for someone who can’t even speak Finnish. I can defend the employer’s position on the Finnish requirement with one critical reason: safety. Critical warnings, instructions, and teaching are all in Finnish. Consider ignoring this small note on a machine: “Älä käytä - happolinjan tiiviste vuotaa!” A non-Finnish speaker is a disaster waiting to happen.
I recommend getting any job first. After you have that any job in your resume, seeking employment suddenly much easier.
Comment by sepisp — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 2:04 am
It’s always stuff like this that makes me wonder how the EU exists and how long before it crumbles under the weight of the stupid bickering of each country.
The EU was supposed to make certain things like labour much more easy to move around….except when countries pull the language and outsider cards to prevent that from happening.
It’s like the current exhibit down at the Jugendsali which is in tourist central…and none of the tags on the exhibit are in English, (or French or German for that matter) only Finnish and Swedish, and it sends a really clear message to those visiting from elsewhere that Finland is not only uninterested in sharing it’s culture with others but that it’s openly hostile to doing so. I just spent a week in BF nowhere Greece and ALL the museums from the smallest one had tags in English without expecting me to learn Greek to indulge my curiosity in THEIR culture.
You’d never guess that Helsinki is an EU capital city……
Comment by hfb — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 9:36 am
Ok I understand your point of view Prince of Dorkness(97) and Helsinkian(98). You want to say that Finnish domestic demands are important part of your country development. I agree with that, this is true nobody can deny it. But tell me truly what would have happened in that (imagined) situation: There is a businessman who has a small firm restaurant/hotel/warehouse and is giving a job to (for e.g.) 5 people. Each of them is being paid 2000€/month and are doing some simple physical jobs. One day he meets a Polish/Czech/whatever guy who is experienced in the same sort of jobs but want to be paid 2 times less - 1000€/month. What this businessman would do?? I can guarantee that answer in Poland/Germany/England/US/..many, many more countries would be that he will hire him instead one of his present workers or as a additional help. In Finland answer is NO he will not give him a job. My question is WHY. I really don’t believe you that every single businessman in this country (whether he has small or huge company) really care about possible harm to whole Finnish economy as a reason for not having additional income. If he is educated at the primary level I am sure he can easily count it: 5 workers *(multiply by) 12 months*1000€ = 60 000€/annualy of additional income ONLY for him. Of course this is a big oversimplifying but shows the relation. If you have a cheaper worker you will have more money. You say that this may cause harm for a country economy but tell me who care about that except of some economy professors or government ministers? When you are a normal ordinary businessman there is a 20 million reasons (percentage of bank your credits, you want to have a new car, your wife wants a holiday on Caribbean Sea, your daughter is going to study abroad, your father is ill, you want to enlarge your business, and so on, so forth…) to have additional income. It seems to be working everywhere but not in Finland… I am personally from Poland and I do have a job in Finland but I wanted to find something for my girlfriend and younger brother, something easy, physical as for e.g. dishwasher job in restaurant. I thought this would be something attractive for entrepreneurs here but this was a big mistake. I know some examples from Poland that building company or warehouse is hiring people from abroad usually from Ukraine or Belarus, but English speaking persons are also welcome if only they can work for a lower prices than Poles. If my country was wealthier I am sure there would be much more of that examples as it is in Greece, Portugal or Holland. Tell me WHY businessmen here don’t want to have more money?(and in case of small companies trade unions have not very much to say) Maybe they have to much of it? If so they can give me a little bit I may assure you that I would know what to do with it:):):)
Comment by Grzegorz — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 10:57 am
hfb:
Ever visited the Louvre or Versailles? All tags are exclusively in French, and audioguides (which are provided free of charge in eg. Berlin) cost 5-10 €. The Louvre museum shop has one small table with books in English, and most museums publish their catalogue only in French.
Compared to many cities I have visited, Helsinki (and Finland) can pride itself on its multilingual services. Helsinki Help, and the way the tourists have found this service, is a prime example of this.
I used to enjoy reading your blog, thinking that you at least attempt to see things objectively, without retorting to the often infantile and unfair comparisons, and even more often downright lies, that often plague the observations of people who have become disenchanted with Finland. I’m very sad to notice that I was wrong.
I do not have a problem with people who decide to leave Finland because they don’t like it here. You can’t please everybody. I do, however, have a problem with people who try to justify this decision by making unfounded and unresearched comparisons and retorting to downright lies and slander. Nothing justifies that kind of behavior, because it is false and plain childish.
Comment by Anzi — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 11:17 am
Anzi: hfb cited an example of her own choosing from her own experience. It may not be that representative of Helsinki but that’s how she felt when she saw that one exhibition. When someone is moving out of a country, it’s quite common to seek reasons to trash that country so that it wouldn’t feel so bad to move out. Take Finnpundit for an example…
That this type of behavior is childish, sure, but it’s so common I’d call it typically human. You just left France, and I bet you don’t have a problem in finding examples of things that you didn’t like in France.
It’s just my feeling that when moving out many people think, so now I don’t have to put up with this and this and this any more and when moving in it’s like, cool, can’t wait to check all this out.
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 11:53 am
That this type of behavior is childish, sure, but it’s so common I’d call it typically human. You just left France, and I bet you don’t have a problem in finding examples of things that you didn’t like in France.
I guess I was just raised differently. Actually I think that I outgrew that phase when my family moved from Germany and a school that I hated to Austria and a school that I liked. I used to bash my old school (an American DOD school) and classmates quite a lot, finally realising that I was being a baby about it and decided to move on with my life.
I have a lot of complaints about France and I could make a whole list of things that I didn’t like there, like the fact that I still haven’t received my last salary. But I don’t tell lies and make up nitpicky arguments to make myself feel better.
I also do not find it at all unfair to expect that any person who has had experience living abroad and visiting different places would be educated enough to not retort to petty slander and mud-slinging.
Comment by Anzi — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
Anzi - French has been and remains one of the official LANGUAGES OF THE EU nation. Again, German is also an official language as is English. Perhaps you missed the part where I mentioned either German or French would have been welcome.
Again, you go off on some ‘but France sucks more’ tangent which wasn’t the point at all. I’ve noticed this in Finnish museums time, after time after time after time. It wasn’t just this one isolated incident. Finland is supposedly part of the EU so why doesn’t it act like it most of the time? Isn’t there about to be an influx of foreigners for the Finnish EU
presidency? Are these people all supposed to learn Finnish to indulge their curiosity about Finnish culture in the same manner expats are told to? In six months?
Also, I never said I didn’t like it here, I said I felt unwelcome here…there is a difference. I’d stay if I felt like there was some sort of long-term future for myself and for my soon to be half-foreigner spawn.
There is no crime in pointing out that these museums could do better, especially when more tourists are not from around here every year. I noticed the other day an article in the HS that mentioned the cops are going to start cracking down on public urination and intoxication…whatever that might actually mean in practice, it’s nice to know at least somebody in Helsinki thinks it’s a problem worth addressing instead of bitching about how France and the UK have a worse problem and that those bothered by such things should just fuck off.
Comment by hfb — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
hfb: “Are these people all supposed to learn Finnish to indulge their curiosity about Finnish culture in the same manner expats are told to?”
Swedish is not that different from German or English. English, Swedish, German, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian all share so many common words. It’s probably just that English and German speakers never felt a need to bother with any Swedish (or other of these smaller languages), since it’s the small Germanic language speaking nations that are most likely to provide information in English.
But sure your point about English, French and German was a good one. Regardless of how potentially easy Swedish (or Portuguese or whatever) is, people would always say but it’s not English (or French or German). Swedish is even closer to German than it is to English and exactly like Dutch, it combines the masculine and feminine words into one gender, leaving the neuters alone as a remnant of the old Germanic genders.
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 12:40 pm
hfb, all the languages spoken in the EU area are official languages in EU. Yes, even finnish.
And Anzi I almost wanted to warn you.
On this blog you can’t really point out that everything’s relative and that there are even worse problems in some “open” and “tolerant” societies abroad. Finland’s problems are - according to many - very unique and out of every proportion when compared to other countries’ problems. 
I guess we finns still are supposed to be the “lackey nation” who serve others obediently, with whatever language they happen to speak. And like the dog who licks the boot that kicks it we should only nod and smile silently when our country is trashed with preposterous, spiteful propaganda.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 12:48 pm
*sigh* No, not all the languages are official languages of the EU when it comes to the EU administration. French, German and English are the choices though from what I gather, English has more or less become the operating language of the EU governmental bodies as well as the common language of choice. Of course, the French still fuss over that quite a bit.
Why do I bother wasting my time here while on holiday to make the point that to be part of the EU and to be welcoming to foreigners, especially those who are members of EU nations who arrive here speaking English/French/German, you kind of have to meet them halfway and not suggest that Swedish is pert near close enough since, you know, cuz it’s an IE language. If that were true, we could all get jobs in a few weeks by taking a crash course in Swedish and all of the Finnish history and culture would even be available in Swedish….which it’s not.
And Helsinkian, I do know German as my mother is from Germany. I still require a dictionary for Swedish…something I don’t tote around with me to museums while on holiday.
Comment by hfb — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 1:05 pm
hfb:
I don’t recall anybody stating that the urinating and littering that goes on here is not a disgusting problem. We simply pointed out that it is not the isolated “Finland-only” -problem that you and many others made it out to be.
Same goes for this museum-incident. I never went off on a “France does it worse” -tangent. I merely pointed out that, once again, Finland is not the only country where these types of things happen.
And considering the fact that the Louvre is one of the biggest tourist attractions in the world, I do find it odd and off-putting that they only have monolingual tags and signs all over the place.
Once again: my problem does not lie with people who point out problems and expect them to be fixed. My problem lies with people who point out general problems and pretend that they are specific to one city and nation only, when they clearly aren’t.
Comment by Anzi — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
And yes, on paper, all EU languages are official languages when it comes to administration. All official parliamentary written and oral questions, EU documents, and official papers can be made in any EU language, including Finnish, from which they will be then translated into other languages.
The practice, however, favors French, German, and English.
Comment by Anzi — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
109:
“I don’t recall anybody stating that the urinating and littering that goes on here is not a disgusting problem. We simply pointed out that it is not the isolated “Finland-only†-problem that you and many others made it out to be.”
I don’t recall anyone saying that people only urinate in Finland.
I just think that some people said that Finland would rank high on the urination index, if there is one.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
I just think that some people said that Finland would rank high on the urination index, if there is one.
Having lived in Helsinki for a few decades, I’ll have to say that downtown streets becoming piss-soaked is a recent development. Attitudes toward alchohol have relaxed and other social controls relating to pissing on the streets smashed out of your mind haven’t been established.
Despite being a goddamn liberal flower-hatted auntie, I advocate the “nokialainen nuoriso-ohjaaja” option. Exert some outside control on people who are incapable or unwilling to control themselves. Besides, I understand that it is legal for an adult to confiscate alcohol from underage pississies, or has the law changed?
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 29th, 2006 @ 7:06 pm
Besides, I understand that it is legal for an adult to confiscate alcohol from underage pississies
No way! Underage drinking isn’t illegal in Finland. Only selling or giving alcohol to persons under 18 is illegal.
Comment by mh — Fri, Jun 30th, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
To Hlesinkian and other guys comparing
situation in Poland and in Finland with respect to bad guy politicians.
Please take into account that 30% population in Poland lives in countryside.
These people had a very hard time before Poland joined EU. Basically it was full competition of subsidized food from EU vs. absolutely no support. No wonder some more extreme voted for the protest guy named Lepper. Now is different story, farmers get EU subisidies, the protest guy support hovers around 6%.
Comment by wirek — Sat, Jul 1st, 2006 @ 12:54 pm
Grzegorz (101), your raise question why
businesses in Finland do not want to employ cheaper foreigners? According to market eceonomy this would be natural and logical. But in Finland (and its role-model Sweden) there is managed market-economy.
So first there is unionization at its top levels in the world.
Where there is no unions, there is always a danger that unions will get informed or authorities will get informed. This may end in investigation e.g. about using slave-labour or bad working conditions or whatsever. In the end it is better no to try to save money on paying employees by employing cheaper foreigners.
If you combine tight labour market with high unionization you get a system in which there are absolutely no incentives to employ foreigners to say the least.
To be honest, this system has one advantage: if foreigner gets employed than it is treated as a local so you will not hear ‘working foreigners are discriminated salary-wise’.
Comment by wirek — Sat, Jul 1st, 2006 @ 1:08 pm
After readings those comments now I see why A. claims that Poland and Finland are very similar - hostile to any criticism and tending to see it as an attack but quite nice if you claim that you didnt mean as an outright attack.
Also it seems really Polish to react to Ms Pezda article (btw Alex - work on your russian - if you are a native speaker work on your understanding of the latin alphabet)
Because why would Finns care - the whole project is a rather ill-conceived, at best mildly entertaining, tongue-in-cheek series of articles about trying to find a low-paid gastarbeiter sort of job in EU coutries in an extremaly short period of time.
Why would Finns care - Ireland and UK obviously needs workers like this, Finland doesnt. End of story.
Her articles are not as bad but that whole Seksmisja crap I dont get (especially from a woman) and the whole argument about not being able to get a job as a women is based on talking to one potenitial employer willing to talk to her.
Then when a random guy in the street helps her to fill in a form in Finnish he is “instantly bored when he finds out I am looking for work” - nice bias in reporting isnt it - a random person in the street helps you translate stuff and you describe him as an ass. While later she writes about a resident Pole who wanted to charge 20 euros for it but thought Poles wouldnt pay. You just proved her right - people are being paid for using their language skills - why would you think that a random male would do it for free?
Anyway - Aboy and Polish Boy - y