Finland for Thought
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14.6.2006

Shoplifting lady in Pori sentenced – take all, pay none – loose your skirt!

Tags: Uncategorized — Author:   @ 2:21 am

The first case ever in the history of Finland, a part of a “national costume” was confiscated by the court as a “object used to commit a crime” in a sentence that was handed over in Pori today.

Traditionally, the “object used to commit a crime” has been “senteced to be forfeited the state”. The secretary of the Advisory Board on Romani Affairs notes that the unique decision of the court is the first time ever a Roma woman’s expensive velvet dress was confiscated to the state writes Satakunnan Kansa. The court found that the dress been altered in such a manner by adding hooks and extra pockets to make shoplifting viable as its reasons for confiscating the dress.

According to the police, the modus operandi regarding the redistribution of wealth was that a group of women went into a store, where they started “making a fuss” whilst one went around and collected items ranging from a chainsaw to groceries. The police said they hadn’t tested what the maximum load of such a dress was, but they stated two women had 76 packets of coffee and nine 4-litre canisters of motor oil between them “under the skirt”.

Is it fair in your opinion that someone abuses her cultural heritage in this way?

The Finnish Roma women’s dress is quite astounding, and Finland is apparently the only country in Europe the Roma have a distinct “national costume”. The women’s dress style dates from the 18th century and is padded with three layers totalling 27 meters of black velvet. A girl makes a choise around the age of 16 of she will wear the traditional dress, as it also obliges its wearer to the traditions regarding the dress. Wearing the dress is heavy, not only that it weighs about ten kilos but the general population does have prejudices, so for a traditionally dressing woman finding a job can be very hard, it is as if the person disappears, but the velvet dress labels one all of a sudden with certain characteristics.

  • http://mouronacosta.wordpress.com/ aNtonio

    I wounder if the skirt any sort of shelves or some kind of hangers :)

  • Anonymous

    observer
    I told you so

  • winter

    Cool skirt. I can use that idea to remodel the Wifes side of the closet.

  • Finnish honesty

    Wonder why this story has got into the news now?

    There’s obviously no connection between the timing of this story and the previous wholesale allegations of racism against the Roma.

    Who is trying to discredit whom?

    Is this story true, or is it a fabricated distraction designed to take the heat off the Finnish racists of Pori?

    The subtext racist Pekka and his Juntii chums are supposed to read into this story is that……..

    “The Roma deserve it”

    “The restaurant owners in Pori were justified in excluding the Roma”

  • Finnish honesty

    Secondly, Hank, your racism is pretty thinly disguised. What’s your solution? Concentration camps?

  • prince of dorkness

    @Finnish Honesty,
    members of a minority can also have less than desirable attitudes towards the majority. In this case, a somewhat relaxed attitude towards the property rights of the Gadje (non-Romanies, a category that includes Finnish Honesty, too). Of course there’s white Finnish shoplifters, but the attitude of the general society is condemning. For me, anyway, being thought a thief is a bigger deterrent than any laughable suspended sentence or minor fine. For some (not all) Romany, there’s no shame in thieving, it does not make you worse person. Some younger Finns think like that too, which I find disturbing.

  • gopha

    A chainsaw and motor oil? Damn… lol

    “Hail to the King, baby.” -Ash

  • Hank W.

    I don’t know where you come from “Finnish honesty” , but in Finland court records can’t be “fabricated”.

    Now apparently you get all upset because your fantasies of innocent people aren’t true. See now the reality of life is there are all kinds of people in every group. If you read the “Discrimination” thread you hear people mentioning the Roma ladies skirts and saying bad things about them. You of course don’t know anything of what can really happen, so you just accuse these people of racism. Now you can see for yourself as a fact, that sometimes these allegations are true. So now that you know both sides of the story, your illusions get shattered. Poor you.
    Is it fair in your opinion that someone can be a career shoplifter and abuse her cultural heritage in this way? Why should she be excused – just because she belongs to an ethnic minority? Does this kind of thing rise prejudices? Maybe. Can you now understand why shopowners will get a nervous breakdown when they have roma ladies with big skirts enter their store? It is a quite understandable human reaction – maybe out of ignorance or prejudiced stereotype – but it is not because the shopowner would be inherently *evil*. They just panic themselves.

    Two wrongs still don’t make a right, so banning roma women in the big skirts is not the correct way to operate even it would diminish the risk of chainsaws disappearing.

    My solution? Locking the ice cream cabinets?

  • Helsinkian

    pod: I bet you have no idea how many white Finnish shoplifters there are. Shoplifters usually do it just for the kicks in the well-to-do countries, it must be one of the most common crimes there is almost everywhere. OK, I’d like to see statistics if it is less common in Finland than in most other countries, as we know honesty is always touted as a stereotypically Finnish quality but somehow I still think shoplifting is common in Finland… Roma shoplifters have the disadvantage of being suspected of doing it even before they do it. Unfortunately for them, they tend to use this “making a fuss” strategy which ethnic Finnish shoplifters usually don’t use AFAIK. Surely they use that strategy because they are more likely to be suspected in any case than ethnic Finnish shoplifters.

  • Justen

    I find it amusing that several newsstories I read didnt have the word “roma” anywhere in it. Just said that a “finnish woman lost her skirt to the state”, and emphatized that it was their “national” dress. Made me quite baffled, till I saw the picture examble.

  • http://- Abu Omar

    whilst one went around and collected items ranging from a chainsaw to 76 packets of coffee and nine 4-litre canisters of motor oil to the treasures found “under the skirt”.

    76 packets of coffee => 0.5 kilo/packet => ~ 35 kilos
    nine 4-liters => 9*4 = 36 kilos

    So, the “collection” weight is around 70 kilo !!!

    Are you fooling us ??
    You need to make better lies to prove your argument.

  • prince of dorkness

    Enlightened people (Hank’s flower-hatted aunties) presume minorities to be always only poor innocent victims.
    I’ve just been reading Anatol Lieven on the Chechen war and I’m really glad we’ve no Chechens in these parts. Lieven is sympathetic towards them but he notes that they were the top gangsters in 90′s Russia and proud of it, too. They don’t give a rat’s ass about what any non-Chechen thinks about them and do not believe thay have any moral obligations towards non-Chechens.
    On the whole, I’d rather have our Romany.

  • spendler

    Close to where I used to live there were two small shops where this “skirt problem” got so much out of hand that the police gave the employees a direct number to call whenever it happened. I saw such an incidet twice myself. The third time was different. Two Roma men walked into a shop took some beers and then just tried to walk away. I happened to be at the door and the lady employee shouted: “Stop them”. Like a schoolboy I carried on with the instructions and blocked the doorway. The other fellow looked at me somewhat puzzled but then drew his knife and asked: “Do you wanna die”. Well, I didn’t and thus the fellows got away. The lady at the counter was really pissed off – at me, and mumbled something about “useless men”. I was still shaking.

    If I was “roma honesty” I would now, because of these experiences, start raving about how the Roma are all this or that. But honestly I don’t think so.

    I used to have a Roma schoolmate. A very nice fellow who dreamed of becoming a doctor. It looked like he could make it, too. He graduated from lukio (“highschool”) with excellent numbers. Then I lost the sight of him. A few years later I met another schoolmate who had become a cop. I asked him about this common friend of ours. It turned out that he had gotten involved in some age old family feud and while trying to escape his adversaries he drove over an innocent bystander who got killed. Our friend ended up in jail. I felt sorry for him. But what can you do? If you’re born into these problematic and violent social relations apparently you’d better not dream of becoming a doctor. Then again, what do I know? Perhaps he is a doctor nowadays in Sweden where he moved later on. Many Romas have, after all, made it against all odds.

  • http://- Abu Omar

    but in Finland court records can’t be “fabricated”.

    Could you please list your sources?
    I need to read the original story from those “records” directly.

    I still wonder how can anyone carry 70+ kilos in a skirt

  • spendler

    I once interviewed several security branch people for an article. The number of shop lifters has apparently risen very dramatically during the last two decades or so. These professionals seemed to be pretty sure that the reason has been illegal drugs, not any trend for more “kicks”.

  • Hank W.

    Ah, Abu Omar, read the bloody newspapers yourself.

    It was in both IL and IS yesterday and they quoted Satakunnan Kansa.

    Actually I read it fast myself, it was 76 packets of coffee and nine four-liter oil canisters divided between two women. So ~35 kilos between the two. Still a hefty load.

  • Hank W.

    Last summer the police caught a few shoplifting gangs that operated Europe-wide. One was peculiar that it concentrated on razor blades. Only razor blades? So there is probably a range from “amateurs” who do it for the kicks to “professionals” to even “international professionals” that feel at home in Hague or in Helsinki. Last week there was a woman sentenced for pinching underwear. She concentrated on expensive brands and apparently sold them forth, so yes, there is a reason why the ice cream cabinets are locked.

  • Moral minority?

    Hi guys, please note all that “Abu Omar”, the previous pseudonym of “Finnish honesty”, is back here, “accidentally” at the time “Finnish honesty” claims he’s returning back to his native London. What a coincidence, not? Remember that “Abu Omar” claimed to be a Jordanian student and “Finnish honesty” claims to live in the UK although both are in fact the same Finnish person. Abu Omar, welcome back, you’ve been really really missed!

    Don’t bother with this guy, he’s not worth it. Instead he should think how bad a picture of real immigrants he’s been creating here by posing as a racist, intolerant and most of all ignorant foreigner living in Finland.

    MM

  • Moral minority?

    Hank, I remember to have read that actually razor blades are the most shoplifted item anywhere. Probably by Google you can find sources to back my memory as well. Anyone more clever than me might know why on Earth… Of course they’re small and easy to steal but is there a black market for them or what? Strange people we have around.

  • Jani

    I’ve only seen one attempted shop lifting. A Roma woman made a fuss and the other one went for the cigarette shelf. Her intentions were obvious, so I kept staring at her. Se saw me and didn’t take any cigarettes. Shortly afterwards both women left the shop without buying anything.

    The security people I know tell me that drug addicts are by far the biggest shop lifters. The number of Roma shop lifters is way out of proportion to the population size, though.

  • Hank W.

    #19 There must be a black market for razor blades somewhere, as why would you go to a foreign country and steal a lifetimes worth of razor blades? I mean the article wasn’t elaborating too much but it wasn’t just one or two packets, but a car boot full.

  • Helsinkian

    This article (seems to be originally from Hesari) says the police think the same as Hank, that someone is buying those razor blades:

    http://agonist.org/20060331/shoplifting_in_finland

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    MM – While I could be wrong, the English FH uses is not indicative of a Finnish native as native English speakers and Finns make different sorts of mistakes. Not that these mistakes can’t be learned over time, but after reading the writing for a while, I’d say the person is an English speaker.

  • Hank W.

    From the article : “About 35 shoplifters are caught in a day in Helsinki.”

    So either we have a lot of shoplifters or we have just bad shoplifters that get caught.

  • http://- Abu Omar

    Abu Omar, welcome back, you’ve been really really missed!

    Thanks a lot MM :)

  • http://anzisblog.blogspot.com Anzi

    I thought FH was Polish? He sure talks about Poland a lot.

  • Moral minority?

    I think we should not try to get too much involved in trying to find out who’s who. Anyway, it’s a question of voluntarily being anonymous, for various reasons, like almost all of us participating here. However, in the Abu Omar / Finnish honesty case it doesn’t take a linguist to see that the style of writing is so similar that someone is using two pseudonyms on the same blog ;-) .

    Anyone ever been offered razor blades on the black market?

  • Helsinkian

    Here’s a BBC News report from last November on shoplifting in Britain:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4477596.stm

    “Professor Martin Gill, directof of the University of Leicester Scarman Centre, says what people steal can depend on whether it is for personal use or to sell.

    Razor blades, air fresheners, batteries, CDs, DVDs, electronic gaming and music equipment and alcohol are cited by offenders as good items to sell on, according to his research. Also cheese, meat and other foodstuffs, all of which can be exchanged for cash very quickly.

    And while there is no absolute rule, those who steal to sell on are likely to steal much larger quantities of product than those stealing for themselves.

    ‘It is no surprise that razor blades are top’, he says. ‘They are expensive, also easy to conceal and sell on. Expensive toothbrushes are another popular item.’

    He says the acronym CRAVED is used to explain the product characteristics most likely to influence a thief’s decision about what to steal. It stands for concealable, removable, available, valued, enjoyed and disposable.”

  • Helsinkian

    That BBC News report (where it was also claimed that 700,000 Brits shoplift each year) had an interesting comments section. One guy from Coventry commented on the black market value of razor blades: “£6 for two razorblades in the shop or £5 for two packs from a bloke in a pub or dodgy car booter?”

  • Helsinkian

    I’m terribly sorry, six pounds for four razor blades (not two) in the shop in Britain according to the comment I misquoted in #29.

  • http://finnsense.blogspot.com finnsense

    Obviously one should not jump to conclusions but it is hardly surprising if Roma people do commit more crime per person than native Finns. Roma culture is strong, it does not favour integration and it is not averse to theft from non-Roma. It is a short step from conceiving an “us” and “them” situation, to not caring about “them” or what they think of you.

    All that said, you still do incredible harm by generalising that “Roma” do this or that. If there is only one Roma who does not, you are guilty of a miscarriage of justice against that person.

  • prince of dorkness

    IIRC you only absolutely have to wear the skirt if you are in the presence of your Romany elders and betters. So if you’ve no older Romanies in your workplace and no chance of one of them entering the premises, it should be OK to wear ordinary work clothes. In some jobs it might be better to make allowances and let them wear the damn dress. Sure it’s a silly rule, but it’s better to give in to minorities over petty issues like this. Our National Service law explicitly excludes the Jehowah’s Wittnesses because it’s just stupid to jail basically law-abiding and harmless people for refusing to serve.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    Somewhere I saw a picture of a sign on a shop door in Finland:

    “vain yksi romani kerrallaan” (Only one Roma at a time.)

    I have always wondered why those skirts were so big. Pretty damn hard to hide a chainsaw in a mini.

    Just imagine how much stuff they got away with beofre getting caught. Is this why they all seem to be hanging out in Downtown Helsinki? Pretty hard to walk away with all the store’s coffee without being noticed.

    No, I am not saying all roma are theives. Although a community is normally partly to blame for the reputation they have. How many Roma knew about this tactic and kept their mouths shut? How many more skirts like this are there.

    Why not weight each customer as they come in and out? Put a scale right there whey people wait to pay.

  • Helsinkian

    finnsense: there is also a long history that has shaped the development of Roma culture in Finland.

    http://www.oph.fi/english/txtpageLast.asp?path=447,490,15850,15996,15999

    16th Century is when they came to Finland. Soon thereafter they were denied access to churches. I’ve understood that decision had something to do with Luther’s theology. Not letting Roma into white churches has been one of the biggest issues during the centuries. I’m not sure how many of them were Christian to begin with but today the Roma are very strongly Christian (at least those Roma who are not assimilated).

    The history pages also says that according to the 1637 hanging law it was legally ok to kill Roma in this country.

    It was during the Russian rule that the Roma got civil rights.

    I’ve understood that a huge change has happened during the past fifty years in the status of Roma. There is an enormous difference between how the Roma have it in Finland and how they have it in the Balkans, to name one example where the Roma have had very hard times in the past years. But really, fifty years ago the Roma had it here almost as bad as they’re having it in many parts of Eastern Europe today.

    Of course, Finland has completely changed in any case from what it was fifty years ago. The standard of living has risen dramatically for the entire population.

    Yes, the Roma are poorer and have a statistically higher crime rate than the majority of Finns even today. They are a disadvantaged minority compared to the well-off majority of the population of this country. Still, the conditions of living for the Roma have improved dramatically during the past fifty years.

    The big issue has always been education. Even here, during the past twenty or thirty years an improvement has happened when it comes to the Roma population in general.

    So the Roma have all these social problems relative to the ethnic majority. But don’t think that the ethnic majority is free of social problems (alcoholism or violence, anyone?). Just because there’s a higher percentage of problems among them than among us doesn’t justify the attitude that they’re all bad and we’re all fantastic.

    Ironically the most bitter anti-Roma rants I’ve heard from alcoholic ethnic Finns who have social problems themselves. Yet when it comes to anti-Roma attitudes, it is nowhere as bad here as it was for fifty years ago. I don’t really get the whining about national costumes, since our Roma do far better with the costumes on than the much less integrated and more discriminated against Eastern European Roma with Western-style clothes.

    I think the biggest difference between ethnic Roma and ethnic Finns is that ethnic Finns are more individualist. If Hank says Finns are like that and I say, no, we’re like this, there is not such a strong instance of conformist control to intervene and force all of us to do the same (I bet there used to be much stronger conformism in the past than there is today) than there is among the Roma. The non-assimilated Roma have much more rules governing what a Roma should be like and conservative and religious elders have more to say on what kind of music the young should listen to and so on than there are in Finland generally, as the general trend is toward a stronger individualism.

  • Finnish honesty

    Immoral (Finnish) Majority uses 2 sad pathetic tactics when proven to be wrong

    1. Tells lies. Makes up false statistics, and worse still claims that others have fabricated when that person’s figures are correct, and Immoral Majority knows it.

    2. Claims that a whole host of foreigners who post on here are the same person. LAUGHABLE!

    But, pathetic and sad at the same time.

  • Finnish honesty

    Hank is just a typical juntti racist who looks like what he is; someone who has just walked out of the forest.

    Hank:

    1. Go abroad and get a proper education

    2. Go abroad and see what life is like elsewhere. I promise that you’ll be amazed

  • gopha

    Heh, the article grew a bit since this morning…

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “Yes, the Roma are poorer and have a statistically higher crime rate than the majority of Finns even today. They are a disadvantaged minority compared to the well-off majority of the population of this country. Still, the conditions of living for the Roma have improved dramatically during the past fifty years.”

    and;

    “Just because there’s a higher percentage of problems among them than among us doesn’t justify the attitude that they’re all bad and we’re all fantastic.”

    It does not give them a permit to steal either.

  • Helsinkian

    Fred: I certainly didn’t say there’s a permit to steal for anyone.

    Let’s say there are two persons of Roma origin: Roma A and Roma B. Roma A doesn’t steal but Roma B does. Hank’s point has been it is wrong to discriminate against Roma A, yet it’s perfectly cool that Roma B is tried in court for stealing.

    Or did I misrepresent Hank here? I that was his point, I agree with him.

    Now there are people like Fred who believe all Roma are like Roma B and they’re all thieves or whatever. After all Fred, it was your point that the skirts are so long because of stealing. I happen to disagree with that point. Then there are people who believe all Roma are deep down like Roma A and all the problems of the B-type Romas are simply explained away by discrimination. I’m certainly not suggesting that, and I don’t think anyone else on this thread has, either.

    I’m proud that the Roma have civil rights in Finland and since they got civil rights, many things have improved in their lives.

  • Helsinkian

    Sorry Fred, you actually said in your post that you don’t think that all Roma are thieves. My apologies.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “Now there are people like Fred who believe all Roma are like Roma B and they’re all thieves or whatever.”

    No I do not. I do belive that the Finnish Roma community has a larger crime problem than the rest of Finnish population.

    I also belive that those who do not work, Roma and other Finns (who hang out at the main train station for example) are more likely to steal than those who have a full-time job. It is not Roma lined up in S Market at 0700 weekdays with beer hidden under their shirts, it’s unemployed drunks. I just wonder why their shirts are not confiscated. So the community as a whole has a crime problem. Anyone at S-Market at 0700 will see that the drunks are treated like criminals too by the security staff, only because they learn that they are more likely to be stealing than other people in line like me.

    One way to address the issue is to put the criminals in jail. Then the majority who are not criminals will not have to put up with the reputation the criminals earn them. Part of the problem is that the good Roma shield and protect the bad Roma.

    This has to do with profiling and lets face it, profiling works to a degree. As the article points out, there is at least two roma thieves in the community. Think those two stole that coffee for their own consumption? The State needs to track down where the goods went and imprison them too. (For the good of the community.)

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “Sorry Fred, you actually said in your post that you don’t think that all Roma are thieves. My apologies.”

    Thanks. Were all friends here. Anyway, knocking away at a keyboard keeps all our sticky fingers away from other trouble!

  • Anonymous

    “Actually I read it fast myself, it was 76 packets of coffee and nine four-liter oil canisters divided between two women. So ~35 kilos between the two. Still a hefty load.”

    One should also consider the length of the velvet in those skirts, they’re HUGE.

  • Anonymous

    I wouldn’t be surprised if “finnish honesty” turned out to he Phil’s sock puppet alter ego.

  • Helsinkian

    Now I’d be really interested to know more about how the Roma were treated in Finland in the middle of the 20th Century. I’ve understood that the Roma fifty years ago were very poor, yet they didn’t have a similar unemployment problem as today. After all, there is this theory that the general economic progress has rendered many traditional Roma occupations obsolete.

    I’ve had the understanding that the Roma here had it better than in the neighboring countries.

    One example of a country where it was not good at all to be a Roma is Norway.

    Here’s some stuff on the Norwegian Roma:

    http://www.axt.ac.uk/antisem/archive/archive4/norway/norway.htm

    “In the 1930s, the policy of ‘Norwegianization’ gave rise to new laws for ‘dealing with’ Roma, especially the one passed in 1934 that allowed for the enforced sterilization of Roma on both social (because they were unable to provide for their children) and eugenic (because they were ‘inferior’) grounds. While the Roma were not, like the Jews, deported to the camps during the Nazi occupation of Norway, the legal abductions of children, sterilizations, sometimes castrations, and later on in the 1940s, lobotomies continued long after the war. Other measures were also introduced, including the law, in 1953, that forbade travellers from owning horses. It was not until the 1970s that there was any discernible protest against the treatment of Roma, and not until 1988 that all special legislation concerning Roma was removed from the statute books.”

    One bizarre aspect to the above quote is that the Nazi occupation is treated as simply a part in Norwegian history where the treatment of the Roma remained almost the same as before and after it. If that is so, it’s quite significant actually, since it made a huge difference to the Jews whether the Nazis were in power or not. Even if there was a Holocaust of Central European Roma, apparently there was no time or interest to transport Roma from the occupied Norway to the concentration camps. I even read somewhere that despite the urgings of the ethnically Norwegian Quisling’s minister of police, the Germans didn’t feel any need to rush their intention to exterminate the Norwegian Roma, so they didn’t feel they had the time to do it despite the long period of occupation. Indeed the anti-Roma legislation became to some parts worse in the liberated Norway ruled by social democrats than it had been before. Sterilizations, castrations, abductions of children from their parents and lobotomies (which meant death for a significant percentage), that was the fate of many mid-20th Century Norwegian Roma, even during a period when the Nazis were not occupying the country.

  • Helsinkian

    Sorry the link didn’t work. This should be the page on the history of Norway’s treatment of minorities:

    http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive4/norway/norway.htm

  • Anonymous

    “But, pathetic and sad at the same time.”

    You, dear “finnish honesty” just described yourself. You’re nothing but an arrogant, bigotet, rasistic insecure little child trolling and desperately crying for attention.

  • m

    Don’t feed the trolls.

  • Helsinkian

    I also found a Norwegian-language website on the history of travellers (gypsies) in Europe:

    http://www.lor.no/historie.htm

    Some tidbits from that Norwegian website:

    In 1544 groups of Roma boat refugees arrived at the Norwegian coast after they had been deported from England.

    In 1619 the king of Spain states that the death sentence is the punishment for wearing the gypsy costume or talking the Romani language.

    In 1637 the hanging law comes into effect in Sweden. If this website is correct, it was not ok to execute Roma women and children, just the men, and women and children were to be deported.

    In 1646 in Berne it was allowed for everyone to kill a Roma.

    In 1650 was apparently the last execution in England for the reason that someone was of Roma ethnic origin. After that they were transported to America.

    In the 1660s Per Brahe tried to settle the Roma population in Karelia. Swedish Roma were moved to Finland.

    In 1943 Norwegian Prime Minister Quisling sent the following report to the justice department: “During my travels I constantly notice that there still are groups of travellers (tater, Norwegian word for Tartar was used of them and not just by Quisling) along the country roads. There are in any case all reasons to take up the traveller question in all its breadth, also from the point of view of racial hygiene.”

    In 1958 all horses of the Roma people were killed in Czechoslovakia.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Anon – “I wouldn’t be surprised if “finnish honesty” turned out to he Phil’s sock puppet alter ego.”

    The English spelling and usage are way too good to be Phil. :)

  • Helsinkian

    One thing about profiling: I was buying my groceries the other day when the police were alerted because somebody had stolen stuff from there. I didn’t see the thief. There were also a couple of drug addicts buying their groceries. Not too many minutes later the police arrived and those drug addicts were apprehended and so the police officers ask the employees if these were the thieves. The answer was no and the addicts were pretty mad at the police officers.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    Helsinkian,

    Yes, there are exceptions to profiling, but we all do it, we can’t help ourselves. You yourself dubbed them “drug addicts” even though you could not know for sure unless you actually saw them doing drugs.

  • Helsinkian

    Here’s a link to the Wikipedia page on the Nazi holocaust of the Roma. A slightly ironic detail is that the Nazis chose to exterminate the Roma even if they knew that they were dealing with an Aryan people. But they tried to justify the extermination of the Roma saying that they were of mixed race and the goal of the extermination was to preserve Aryan racial purity:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porajmos

    Apparently ten percent of European Roma were deemed to be racially pure Aryans by the German racialists and hence spared from the concentration camps.

  • Helsinkian

    Fred: Sure everybody does profiling.

  • Helsinkian

    Since the history of the state church is quite interesting to me, I tried to do some research on which bit of Lutheran theology the edict of not allowing Roma to churches was based.

    Apparently he wrote nothing as heavy anti-Roma stuff as his infamous anti-Jewish script “On the Jews and their Lies”. That one is said to be anti-Jewish rather than anti-Semitic since Luther had absolutely nothing against Jews in racial terms, he advocated their persecution purely on religious grounds since they weren’t Christians. I googled “jews their lies” on google.com and every single hit on the first page had to do with Martin Luther’s text.

    The one of Luther’s texts that has been used against the Roma is from 1528. It is a preface to a new edition of a book called “liber vagatorum”. There Luther warned against the treacherousness and the lying of the travellers. According to this German text on the history of theology the Reformation meant a sharpening of attitudes toward the Roma and many Roma moved from newly Protestant territories to Catholic ones:

    http://aps.sulb.uni-saarland.de/theologie.geschichte/inhalt/2006/10.html

  • http://- Abu Omar

    Moral minority:
    However, in the Abu Omar / Finnish honesty case it doesn’t take a linguist to see that the style of writing is so similar that someone is using two pseudonyms on the same blog

    You are so smart Mr. Columbo

  • http://- Abu Omar

    No one has the right to label the whole race because of bad actions committed by some people who belong to that race.
    The picture is very clear; who considers roma as an inferior race, then no doubt he is a racist

    Please thinks about the following points, and do your mental calculations
    - Both Roma and Jews are a race of 12 millions around the world
    - Both Roma and Jews suffered greatly as victims of Nazi genocide => Roma suffered more
    - Both Roma and Jews are/were isolated in their ghettos
    - Both Roma and Jews have the same historical and fictional image => e.g., Shylock in Shakespeare

    Because Jews are “acting” on the internation level and “stealing” lands => they have a state -in the occupied Palestine-

    Because Roma are “acting” on the very low level, and only “shoplifting” => they are victims of racism

  • Finnish honesty

    Immoral (Finnish) majority is a pseudo who tries desperately to come across as a serious middle class Finn

    In fact he, or she is from the same mold as Hank

    Racist, simple-minded, binary-thinking Finn who lives in a constant dillusional state of denial

    In-between Black and White there are shades of grey in-between. I just wish they would teach this philosophy in Finland, not just facts, X is correct, Y is wrong.

  • Finnish honesty

    Helsinkiperson you wrote that

    “I’m proud that the Roma have civil rights in Finland”

    I would like to remind, or possibly inform you, that Roma are human beings.

    What else could possibly happen: Roma don’t have civil rights?

    In practice the laws that Finland has to prevent discrimination against minorities are fake, they’re a sham, for “show” purposes only. Let’s see what punishment the Finnish courts dish out to the Pori based restauranteurs

  • Hank W.

    The only “state of denial” I have, is when deny “´Finnish Honesty”
    and his likes have an arse of gold we need to lick.

  • prince of dorkness

    “it made a huge difference to the Jews whether the Nazis were in power or not” Helsinkian, post 45
    One possible explanation to the difference (includes huge generalizations, don’t bother to nit-pick): The Roma and the Jews were traditionally outcast groups, outside the mainstream society of old Europe. ‘Unehrlich’, without honour in the sense that they were not a part of the moral community of good Christians. But the Enlightenement and the French revolution broke up the Ancien Regime in the course of the 19th century, leading to a situation in which people were assumed to be ideally equal citizens, with equal rights.
    The Jews (not all but lots) took advantage of this. The Roma did not, on a similar scale. There was a Gentile backlash of antisemitism; there was no such backlash of antiromanyism. A son of a wealthy Jewish family like Dreyfus might choose a military career. A Roma would have been very unlikely to voluntarily serve in a Gadje army. The Roma were despised, but they were not seen as a threat. There was no ‘Protocols of the Elders of Roma’.

  • Helsinkian

    pod: In 1937 the Nazis prohibited the Roma from serving in the army. I thought there were plenty of examples of Roma serving in Gadje armies as conscripts throughout European history. Voluntarily serving is a different thing of course but nitpicking or not, I’d like to hear more on the subject of Roma serving in armies.

    The Roma were a threat to the Nazis, to their theory, not in practice, because they were an Aryan people speaking an Aryan language, living proof of their Aryan race theory being complete BS. So they decided to exterminate them not long after the Wannsee decision for the final solution for the Jews. Why they didn’t push for this being done in Norway (and indeed in some other countries they were less interested in exterminating Roma than exterminating Jews) is probably because they weren’t in such a hurry with a relatively small number of people who the Norwegians were willingly ‘taking care of’, albeit slowly and less certainly, with their sterilization procedures, all on their own. The Nazis always liked the idea of their subjects doing their dirty work for them.

    Then it’s a totally different matter that it was quite normal in the 1940s for even liberal intellectuals to think of the idea of the sterilization of underprivileged groups as a good way of improving the quality of the population. Lobotomy was also seen as a great advance in science and parents would send their mentally handicapped kids for lobotomy for various reasons. For example, if sex drive was seen as an undesirable characteristic in a handicapped person at that time, lobotomy was seen as a surefire cure. At that time, many intellectuals thought of the Roma as handicapped or ‘inferior’. As late as 1977 Roma women were forcefully sterilized in Norway:

    http://home.online.no/~ol-enge/art02/03-1Rasehygiene.htm

    The article also says that there were *less* forced sterilizations in Norway during the war (when of course the Nazi occupation occurred), which is called a paradox, and there was a rise in the statistics after the war. Exactly how many of those sterilized by the Norwegian government were Roma, is difficult to determine.

  • Helsinkian

    Another paradox in the Norwegian article was that one of the leading proponents of racial hygiene in Norway, Johan Scharffenberg, was a leading intellectual in the Labour Party who was arrested by the Nazis during the war because he was so active in the resistance.

    http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Scharffenberg

    As early as 1933 Scharffenberg called Hitler “a paranoid psychopath”. That’s pretty foresighted conclusion. The Labour Party he joined in 1937, despite having been close to it earlier on. Norwegian wikipedia doesn’t quote him as on the Roma or sterilization as they do on his clear moral judgment on the Nazis. The other article stated that this leading Norwegian psychiatrist and criminologist didn’t see much difference in developing the racial characteristics in domestic animals as in humans. Funny that a guy like him would forget that humans have free will. Scharffenberg was also one of leading advocates of temperance in Norway who preached against the uncultivated drinking habits.

    Although Scharffenberg was a longtime proponent of racial hygiene, after the Nazis gained fame he preferred to call his PC version of it “slektshygiene” instead of “rasehygiene” so as not to been seen a racist or a supporter of Nazi theories on race. A man a generation older than Hitler, he’d of course supported racial hygiene for a very long time before he understood the problem in using that word.

  • Helsinkian

    I actually wonder if one key of the reasons for why there were less sterilizations during the war in Norway was that the Nazis fired this Johan Scharffenberg gentleman from the position of leading doctor at Oslo Hospital. Scharffenberg had been such a leading proponent of racial hygiene and he’d been in a position where he could put his principles into practice. He obviously wasn’t fired because he supported racial hygiene but because he was a principled anti-Nazi and so the Nazis prohibited the publication of his works and ordered him not to speak in public. So the downturn in forced sterilizations could in part have happened by default. If Norwegian leading experts in the field weren’t in friendly terms with the Nazis, they might get replaced by incompetent yes-men and so the efficiency of racial hygiene went down, as the efficiency of all disciplines tends to go down during dictatorships when party books are more decisive than merits.

  • prince of dorkness

    @62,
    well they did serve in the Finnish army during WWII, anyway.
    What I meant was that there was a Dreyfus case because Jews took advantage of their legal rights and entered roles they had never had before, threatening the Gentile establishment’s monopoly of power and honour. The Roma did not do this, they remained mostly outside Gadje society. Can’t blame them for being wary of us, look what happened to the Jews.
    And there’s a world of difference between a poor bloody infantryman and a staff major. Imperial Russia, no-one’s idea of a philosemitic country, used to conscript Jews for the same 25 years as the rest. (The first legal loophole allowing Jews to settle here in Finland was an act of Nicholas I permitting Jewish veterans to settle anywhere in the Empire.) But I don’t think there were Jewish senior officers under the czars.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Didn’t Finland also have a compulsory sterilization program up through the 1970s? Also forced abortion?

  • spendler

    Helsinkian, it seems that the Nazis regarded most Gypsies racially impure, but according to Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porajmos
    there was about ten per cent who were pure enough. No decision was made on what should be done to those.

    According to the racist theories Germans and Scandinavians must be the purest Aryans because the race first appeared in northern Germany and southern Scandinavia. The term “Arya”, which was supposed to mean “noble”, was theorized to have been the original self-designation of these first Indo-Europeans (if I’ve understood correctly the main-stream thinking of the Nazi science).

    (“Arya” is perhaps the root of the word “orja” (slave) in Finnish, by the way. If that’s true the early Finno-Ugrics, who lived next to very early Indo-Europeans, had Aryans as their slaves. Which, in turn, according to racial theory should make these Finno-Ugrics the original master race.See (Finnish):
    http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit)

  • Helsinkian

    hfb: Sure we had a forced sterilization program.

    According to this article, the Finnish program was in force from 1930 to 1955, with 1,460 sterilizations compared to Swedens 60,000, to name one example:

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/60/135.html

    You bet there was racial hygiene behind the Finnish program as well. Still this is one issue and the treatment of the Roma minority is another issue. Not that I don’t find all these forced sterilizations on racial hygiene grounds distasteful.

  • prince of dorkness

    @hfb
    Can’t find any reference to sterilization or abortion policies aimed at the Roma. But there was a policy of forced assimilation: children taken away from their parents, the use of the Roma language and all Roma customs strongly discouraged. This lasted c.1900-1969.
    I suppose nobody watched that documentary about the life of one guy who’d been taken and placed in some home that was on TV recently.
    One of the guys from the band ‘Pelimannet’, I think.

  • prince of dorkness

    “there was about ten per cent who were pure enough” spendler, quoting Wikipedia in post 67
    Genocide is not an exact science. I think the Nazis pulled figures like that out of their ass to account for the disturbing presence of many people rather better and more Nordic/Germanic looking than Hitler among the untermenschen.

  • spendler

    Helsinkian, the figure is according to Taina Uusitalo about 5 000 between 1935 and 1970 when forced sterilizations became illegal. Most of these were women who were deemed not fit to bear children because of some gentic disease – which included all kinds of mental disorders that today would not be classified as genetic.

  • Helsinkian

    hfb: I was reading a thread in a pro-life evangelical discussion group where a pro-life evangelical researcher in biomedicine claims that the figures for forced sterilizations are so low because the general practice in Finland was to classify most sterilizations as voluntary. This classification of a sterilization as either forced or voluntary is problematic. In the same pro-life evangelical discussion board there was also a claim that Finland simply has not provided statistics of how many were Roma.

    I’d like to have confirmation on this issue from a source that is not driven by an ideological pro-life agenda combined with an interest in conspiracy theories. But there most certainly is a conspiracy theory that states that forced sterilizations or doubtful cases were classified as voluntary and the statistics on Roma sterilizations were swept under the rug. The same source claimed that the sterilization rate (this has nothing to do with forced or voluntary) was almost the double in Finnish-speaking municipalities than in Swedish-speaking ones, and there was zero interest for sterilization in Åland. This was also presented in a manner of a Swedish-speaking conspiracy theory (the statistics, of which it was unable to determine the ethnicity of the sterilized, only municipality, were combined with pointing out by the same conspiracy theorist that the sterilization law was first propounded by a Swedish-speaker).

    I’m still waiting for impartial sources. The key explanation to the conspiracy theories may be that the Finnish statistics (on neither Roma sterilizations nor forced sterilizations, not to speak of forced Roma sterilizations) simply aren’t there or aren’t 100% reliable. So if Roma were sterilized, it wasn’t written down that the reason for this was that the person was Roma, this was done for some other reason and then the ethnicity of the sterilized was simply not classified in the statistics.

    Sorry for spamming you with conspiracy theories but I didn’t find an impartial source as yet.

  • spendler

    It’s indeed seems to be true that the Swedish-speaking part of the population was more into the racial side of eugenics, particularly in the 20s and 30s. Finnish speakers, who at the time belonged to an inferior race according to many authorities, naturally, could not really support such ideas and were thus more interested in getting rid of the inheritable diseases.

    Katso: Taina Uusitalo, Turun Sanomat 30.9.2004 (artikkeli pitää hakea Googlen cachesta)

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    spendler – that article appears to be outdated as the updated numbers from the late 90s appears to be 11,000 up through the early 1970s.

    Helsinkian – It’s difficult to say who was the target of them since there is apparently very, very little written about the program, Roma or not.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Oh, and the article I forgot to quote:

    “Report: Research reveals larger Finnish sterilization program
    By Matti Huuhtanen, Associated Press Writer

    HELSINKI, Finland

    New research reveals that Finland forcibly sterilized more than 11,000 people – about eight times more than previously reported, Finland’s largest daily newspaper said Saturday.

    In addition, the practice continued as late as 1970, the Helsingin Sanomat newspaper said. Previous reports had said the policy of involuntary sterilizations, which began in 1935, ended in 1955. About 4,000 involuntary abortions also were performed between 1950 and 1970.

    The newspaper attributed its information to a researcher at Tampere University, Markku Mattila.

    The report comes as several Nordic countries take a painful look at their history in the wake of reports that Sweden had forcibly sterilized 60,000 people.

    Both Sweden and Denmark have announced government investigations of the sterilizations, which were done legally but go largely unmentioned in history books.

    The sterilization policies were enacted under the influence of eugenics, a once-popular but now discredited movement that advocated improving the human race by controlled breeding.

    © The Associative Press”

  • Helsinkian

    Now I found a source. Markku Mattila has written a PhD thesis on racial hygiene in Finland up until the 1935 sterilization law.

    http://www.uta.fi/laitokset/kirjasto/vaitokset/1999/7299.html

    This is no source at all on the statistics of what happened after 1935 and I haven’t read Mattila’s book but there it’s possible to read on the debate that was behind Finland’s sterilization law.

    Tieteessä tapahtuu 8/1997 published Mattila’s article on racial hygiene in Finland:

    http://www.tieteessatapahtuu.fi/897/sisalto.htm

    Mattila states there that the early phases of the eugenics debate was related to a discussion on the state of the Swedish minority in Finland. The Florin Commission, a private sector body (precursor of Folkhälsan) that investigated the situation of Swedish-speakers from 1911 onwards from a eugenics point of view, was important in this aspect. Harry Federley was the leading expert on eugenics in Finland. So in some sense the first spark to get interested in eugenics in Finland may have been related to the worry about the declining number of Swedish-speakers. I don’t think there has to be anything conspiratorial about this, though, as in all countries the poor were more targeted for sterilizations than the affluent and in Finland it so happened that there were more poor (and more poor municipalities who saw in sterilizations a way to get down their social welfare payments) among the Finnish-speakers. Since there was this class aspect to the eugenics thinking, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Roma would have been disproportionately hit by it even if there was no expressed racist intent to cut their numbers as there was in Norway.

  • Helsinkian

    Thanks hfb, your source says it all as far as the statistics are concerned. At least those are the figures that Mattila has come up with in his research on the stats for the period 1935-1970.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    And here’s a summary of the book Mattila wrote on the topic. http://www.lib.helsinki.fi/elektra/summatti.pdf

  • prince of dorkness

    About the ‘voluntariness’ of sterilizations: epileptics were forbidden to marry in 1929, but if they volunteered for sterilization, they would get a permission.
    (http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/hum/histo/pg/pohtila/liianhuo.pdf)

  • me

    hello i’m from finland and i live in city of pori and you all here think that all finnish people is racists.no that isn’t true! this women and this grop in pori menace peolpe!kids old people. i don’t want to be racist but this group are mean and they assault peoples.but i fact there are nice romanies and like some of them. i’m sorry about your misunderstanding .:/

  • me

    and she had also stolen motorsaw with that skirt

  • me

    I do belive that the Finnish Roma community has a larger crime problem than the rest of Finnish population.

    ^^^thats true

  • Johannes

    Is it fair in your opinion that someone abuses her cultural heritage in this way?

    Stealing plays an important role in the cultural heritage of Finnish Roma community, so I wouldn’t call that abusing, rather expressing traditional Roma customs.

  • http://aijoovai.blogspot.com Aijoovai

    The situation and the whole culture of the Finnish Romas has puzzeled me for a while. Inspired by this discussion I digged the web for a while for general information on what the Roma culture really is (to clear my conceptions) and how the Romas are doing in Finland. Below are the links I found interesting if anyone else wants to look into this.

    It seems that regardless of this single case (which is no news – I once worked in a store where a Roma lady had hidden *a case of beer* under her skirt!) and the fact that Romas are still in general less advantaged compared to the rest of the population the situation of the Romas seems to have gotten better over the recent history and seems to be in a good direction.

    All information is in Finnish.

    City.fi – Nuoret romanit
    http://www.city.fi/lehti/­article.php?id=1126
    - an insteresting article from 2004 about the Roman youth. As it’s City-lehti it’s surely not a research perspective..

    ROMANIT – Helsingin yliopiston luentosarja http://www.valt.helsinki.fi/sosnet/luennot/romano/
    - 4 RealPlayer streams to lectures about Romans. I listened about half of the lecture of Väinö Lindberg (a Finnish Roman, in Finnish). Interesting background information.

    Suomen romanit (Sosiaali- ja terveysministeriö)
    http://pre20031103.stm.fi/suomi/­pao/julkaisut/romanit.htm

    Sosiaaliportti.fi – linkkejä romaneista
    http://www.sosiaaliportti.fi/­Linkkikirjasto.aspx?wordID=b55d8a..
    - laaja ja kattava lista linkkejä romaneja käsitteleviin raportteihin jne.

    “Suvaitsevaisuus Länsi-Euroopassa”
    http://www.lyseo.edu.ouka.fi/­suvaitsevaisuus/
    - tietoa Romanien historiasta

    Tietoa romaneista
    http://www.pohjois-suomenromanit.fi/­Tietoaromaneista.htm

    Romanit – Wikipedia
    fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanit

  • Finnish honesty

    You should see what a racist juntti Finn can get under his baseball cap. An article in Junttisanomat reported that one of these sub-humans stole a 7 series BMW by putting it under his baseball cap, and tthen walking out of the car showroom. It was in the Junttisanomat, so it must be true!

  • Anonymous

    “You should see what a racist juntti Finn can get under his baseball cap.”

    The only racist here is you. Read your own racistic, arrogant and hostile rants. You’re a textbook example of a reject who desperately tries to cry for attention. Seek psychological help and learn to control your hostility.

  • Krisu

    I have never had a single good experience when dealing with the Romani. I avoid them as much as I can, because it is better to be safe than sorry.

    Finnish honesty is a typical liberal-thinking utopist, whose only tactic to confront the opposition is slander. Insults like “Racist” and “Nazi” are typical of people like him.

    If a group of people get a bad reputation because that group is disproportionally represented in crime statistics and inmate populations, it makes perfect sense to be more careful around that group. Prejudiced? Hell yes, but also good for your health. Think about it.

  • Johannes

    Finnish honesty, the original news was in Satakunnan Kansa. Read it here:
    http://www.satakunnankansa.fi/teema/varkaudet/2923474.shtml

  • Helsinkian

    One group of Roma that are facing persecution today, are the Roma of Iraq called Qawliya:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qawliya

    They have been targeted by the Iran-backed religious militias such as the Badr Brigades and the Mehdi Army.

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