Comments on: Problems with socialized healthcare, an example http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/ Politics, current events, culture - From Finland & United States Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:08:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Corrinne Lecznar http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-380448 Corrinne Lecznar Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:31:19 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-380448 I recently found your blog from Google and browse many of your other posts.All great. Please continue this great work. Cheers, Thank you. I recently found your blog from Google and browse many of your other posts.All great. Please continue this great work. Cheers, Thank you.

]]> By: spendler http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64768 spendler Fri, 16 Jun 2006 05:25:02 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64768 A few facts can never hurt, can they: Finland's maternal mortality rate is among the lowest in the world and about three times smaller than in the US. Finlands's infant mortality rate is likewise among the lowest in the world and about two times smaller than in the US. http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/indwm/ww2005/tab3b.htm Within the EU15 the Finns are more satisfied with the health-care system than in any other country, perhaps because it's not "socialized" contrary to what you think. But then again, no, it can't be because the Finns have less private insurances than almost no other citizens. http://www.irdes.fr/ecosante/OCDE/74.html But what would they know, right? A few facts can never hurt, can they:

Finland’s maternal mortality rate is among the lowest in the world and about three times smaller than in the US.
Finlands’s infant mortality rate is likewise among the lowest in the world and about two times smaller than in the US.
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/indwm/ww2005/tab3b.htm

Within the EU15 the Finns are more satisfied with the health-care system than in any other country, perhaps because it’s not “socialized” contrary to what you think. But then again, no, it can’t be because the Finns have less private insurances than almost no other citizens.
http://www.irdes.fr/ecosante/OCDE/74.html
But what would they know, right?

]]> By: hfb http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64639 hfb Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:37:13 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64639 Catilina - You have my sympathy as this is why I previously stated I wouldn't go to the ER even after getting refused for appointments by both the public doctor and my pre-natal nurse who was away for the week. They say being preggers with the flu is dangerous...I guess they didn't think so. My mom was an MD and I used to work in the ER some summers to make money. There's nothing like working at a young age in a primary trauma center in a large city to make you lose all hope in humanity, especially on a full moon. My mother used to wish for socialized medicine and I, too, thought it was a worthy ideal, but now I'm not so sure. Catilina – You have my sympathy as this is why I previously stated I wouldn’t go to the ER even after getting refused for appointments by both the public doctor and my pre-natal nurse who was away for the week. They say being preggers with the flu is dangerous…I guess they didn’t think so.

My mom was an MD and I used to work in the ER some summers to make money. There’s nothing like working at a young age in a primary trauma center in a large city to make you lose all hope in humanity, especially on a full moon. My mother used to wish for socialized medicine and I, too, thought it was a worthy ideal, but now I’m not so sure.

]]> By: Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64330 Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:13:50 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64330 Winter, If you want to continue the debate, post some *good* arguments in my blog (I've reposted one of my comments here as a story there, and the comment section is open). As of right now I am no longer following this story's comments. Winter,

If you want to continue the debate, post some *good* arguments in my blog (I’ve reposted one of my comments here as a story there, and the comment section is open). As of right now I am no longer following this story’s comments.

]]> By: winter http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64298 winter Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:27:19 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64298 Antti Where is personal Responsability is the Social net you want? None, zero, so the Drunk keeps drinking and you are helping him out. All in the name of Christ? Next you will be offering free needles for drug users to help them get a free fix. Wait... you are already doing that to? Antti

Where is personal Responsability is the Social net you want? None, zero, so the Drunk keeps drinking and you are helping him out.

All in the name of Christ? Next you will be offering free needles for drug users to help them get a free fix. Wait… you are already doing that to?

]]> By: spendler http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64263 spendler Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:27:28 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64263 And even the super rich who for some reason don't have an insurance pay in the end as higher taxes, because the health-insurance costs are tax-detuctible. It seems that the American system is designed the big companies, not patients, in mind. They've gotten almost free hands to rip off tax payers money, very few "checks and balances" in the system. No wonder the expenses are huge but the results modest. Or am I missing something? I mean, there must be a reason why certain low-paid employees don't get an insurance, so the companies have to benefit somehow from not paying the fees. And even the super rich who for some reason don’t have an insurance pay in the end as higher taxes, because the health-insurance costs are tax-detuctible. It seems that the American system is designed the big companies, not patients, in mind. They’ve gotten almost free hands to rip off tax payers money, very few “checks and balances” in the system. No wonder the expenses are huge but the results modest. Or am I missing something? I mean, there must be a reason why certain low-paid employees don’t get an insurance, so the companies have to benefit somehow from not paying the fees.

]]> By: Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64257 Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho Wed, 14 Jun 2006 04:36:15 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64257 Winter, I could talk about social responsibility, "no-one is left behind" and all that but I doubt you'd understand the concept, so I won't even try. Or I could assume that you are Christian (I don't know if you are) and refer to the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost son, but, as I said, I don't know if you are Christian. Instead, I'll note that unless you are super-rich enough to actually afford the cost of any medical care you might need, your insurance payments would also pay for the alcoholic's liver, in an insurance-based system with similar coverage to the public health care system. As for me being left-wing, many of my leftist friends disagree :) Winter,

I could talk about social responsibility, “no-one is left behind” and all that but I doubt you’d understand the concept, so I won’t even try. Or I could assume that you are Christian (I don’t know if you are) and refer to the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost son, but, as I said, I don’t know if you are Christian.

Instead, I’ll note that unless you are super-rich enough to actually afford the cost of any medical care you might need, your insurance payments would also pay for the alcoholic’s liver, in an insurance-based system with similar coverage to the public health care system.

As for me being left-wing, many of my leftist friends disagree :)

]]> By: winter http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64247 winter Wed, 14 Jun 2006 00:40:36 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64247 tim3 traffic light? you have those? Town I am in has a single blinking light, which makes it hard for you to rob me. (No one stops anyway) Right now my neighbors are getting ready for hunting season. you might want to duck and cover as they are not very good shots even when Bamby and Donald are in their cross hairs. tim3

traffic light? you have those? Town I am in has a single blinking light, which makes it hard for you to rob me. (No one stops anyway)

Right now my neighbors are getting ready for hunting season. you might want to duck and cover as they are not very good shots even when Bamby and Donald are in their cross hairs.

]]> By: tim73 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64240 tim73 Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:52:39 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64240 Yeah, winter: Why the fuck I will not rob you in the traffic lights? It is my duty anyway and survival of the fittest, right? Any means necessary... Yeah, winter: Why the fuck I will not rob you in the traffic lights? It is my duty anyway and survival of the fittest, right? Any means necessary…

]]> By: winter http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64219 winter Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:58:44 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64219 Antti Sure - insurance must have controls, or they will be taken advantage of. Thats the same for a free Medical program, its just a matter of how long a line one wants to stand in. Make insurance kick in at a very high number, and make folks actually responsable for their own actions (Can I say the responsabiliity word here amoung the left wing?). Again.. why do I have to pay for a drunk and his new liver, or even his loud demands to get his stomach pumped in the ER? Why do I have to pay for free dental work, when that person will not even brush his/her teeth? Antti

Sure – insurance must have controls, or they will be taken advantage of. Thats the same for a free Medical program, its just a matter of how long a line one wants to stand in.

Make insurance kick in at a very high number, and make folks actually responsable for their own actions (Can I say the responsabiliity word here amoung the left wing?).

Again.. why do I have to pay for a drunk and his new liver, or even his loud demands to get his stomach pumped in the ER?

Why do I have to pay for free dental work, when that person will not even brush his/her teeth?

]]> By: Catilina http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64130 Catilina Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:29:25 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64130 Yes, we _are_ pretty good at that. The first glance when shaking is aimed to the question: "is now something seriously wrong?". Guess what? Those drunkards and brawlers an sufferers of mild discomfort get a correct and mostly polite treatment too, and they are _demanding_ it. They see it as their "right" to get to a psychiatric ward immediately when a regular shelter isn't comfortable enough, their knee sores have needed checking just _now_ after all these months and so on and so on. Yes, we _are_ pretty good at that. The first glance when shaking is aimed to the question: “is now something seriously wrong?”.

Guess what? Those drunkards and brawlers an sufferers of mild discomfort get a correct and mostly polite treatment too, and they are _demanding_ it. They see it as their “right” to get to a psychiatric ward immediately when a regular shelter isn’t comfortable enough, their knee sores have needed checking just _now_ after all these months and so on and so on.

]]> By: Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64129 Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:26:50 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64129 @62: A "pay as you go" system would just evolve - fairly quickly - into an insurance-based system, because people who have some sense in them and are not millionnaires will realize the benefit of a medical insurance in a "pay as you go" system. I don't understand where you get the idea that in an insurance-based system (even if the insurance only covers the "big" bills) there is no need for the insurance companies to invest in fraud detection and investigation. @62: A “pay as you go” system would just evolve – fairly quickly – into an insurance-based system, because people who have some sense in them and are not millionnaires will realize the benefit of a medical insurance in a “pay as you go” system.

I don’t understand where you get the idea that in an insurance-based system (even if the insurance only covers the “big” bills) there is no need for the insurance companies to invest in fraud detection and investigation.

]]> By: prince of dorkness http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64128 prince of dorkness Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:23:46 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64128 Re Catilina's lament, the one time my wife needed to get to the jour at Malmi at night, just after Vappu, she got excellent treatment and was moved to the front of the queue, ahead of the drunks and the brawlers. The staff do try to distinguish between time-wasters and self-inflicted problems and 'real' patients. They have my sympathy. But the trouble is, some real problems may get dismissed as time-wasting too. Re Catilina’s lament,
the one time my wife needed to get to the jour at Malmi at night, just after Vappu, she got excellent treatment and was moved to the front of the queue, ahead of the drunks and the brawlers. The staff do try to distinguish between time-wasters and self-inflicted problems and ‘real’ patients. They have my sympathy. But the trouble is, some real problems may get dismissed as time-wasting too.

]]> By: Catilina http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64121 Catilina Tue, 13 Jun 2006 06:31:35 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64121 Actually people show up for various reasons. Getting a certificate for a sick leave at midnight isn't exactly a life threatening situation. Nor is insomnia presented at early night. You would be surprised to see _why and on what grounds_ people actually seek a doctor at jouring hours. Then it happens that those people that really are seriously ill must be attended in extra time. Obviouslu _you_ have never done this work yourself. This is regular and never ending complaint in restricted medical discussion boards, and my whining is _very_ moderate in tune. When have _you_ spend over 400 hours at your work place a month and all you got in reward were taxes? Actually people show up for various reasons. Getting a certificate for a sick leave at midnight isn’t exactly a life threatening situation. Nor is insomnia presented at early night. You would be surprised to see _why and on what grounds_ people actually seek a doctor at jouring hours. Then it happens that those people that really are seriously ill must be attended in extra time.
Obviouslu _you_ have never done this work yourself. This is regular and never ending complaint in restricted medical discussion boards, and my whining is _very_ moderate in tune.
When have _you_ spend over 400 hours at your work place a month and all you got in reward were taxes?

]]> By: spendler http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/comment-page-2/#comment-64117 spendler Tue, 13 Jun 2006 06:13:52 +0000 http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/06/10/problems-with-socialized-healthcare-an-example/#comment-64117 Catalina, if you were really a doctor or even a nurse you would know that people don't visit a doctor or a nurse because of a flu unless they a) need a certificate proving they are ill or b) are afraid. You would also know that visiting a doctor is rarely free (although it doesn't cost "dearly"). Few people are rich enough to pay something like 15 euros just for the privilige to get to whine. Fortunately for you, whining here is free, though. Fortunately for the rest of us, you really have nothing to do with taking care of people. Catalina, if you were really a doctor or even a nurse you would know that people don’t visit a doctor or a nurse because of a flu unless they a) need a certificate proving they are ill or b) are afraid. You would also know that visiting a doctor is rarely free (although it doesn’t cost “dearly”). Few people are rich enough to pay something like 15 euros just for the privilige to get to whine.

Fortunately for you, whining here is free, though.

Fortunately for the rest of us, you really have nothing to do with taking care of people.

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