Racial Discrimination in The Deep North
@ 11:36 pm The residents of Pori are astonished, and I am too. One would think that in this day and age there wouldn’t appear such wholesale discrimination. However, one fortunately can’t generalise one town to represent the whole of Finland:
According to Hagert, this is more or less a phenomenon that exists only in Pori, as it has never happened to him elsewhere in Finland nor abroad.
What I find a good sign is that the issue gets tackled openly. It is no use trying to make changes if one cannot speak about the issues in question. What I find also important is that the law isn’t an “empty letter”.
The Equality Act forbids both private and public discrimination, but until now, there has been little or no proof. “On the basis of the proof, the case can be taken before the National Discrimination Tribunal”, notes Yrsa Korkman from the Office of the Ombudsman for Minorities. In fact, the National Discrimination Tribunal has already given the first decision on the basis of ethnic or national origin. In Helsinki, a restaurant was found guilty of denying a woman with a Russian accent entrance to the premises. It is true that restaurants may deny entrance on the basis of the customer’s earlier conduct, but according to the penal code, all discrimination not based on a person’s own conduct is punishable by law.
One really cannot expect changes to happen overnight – and you cannot force people to like each other – but I can’t see why the NDT hasn’t been more proactive, as you can’t have such “public secrets” and claim “not to have proof”.
If you’ve been into Pori, you’d know that the gypsey gangs there are really dangerous. Honest gypseys carry the consequences.
Comment by Outer Pori — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 12:22 am
Unfortunately discrimination is still very much alive and kicking. And not only racial discrimination but other kinds of discrimination as well. Just a couple of days ago the dutch ambassador to Estonia, Hans Glaubitz, resigned from his post because he and his cuban-born partner Raul Garcia Lao had been targeted by estonian skinheads and the estonian public. They were subjected to racial and homophobic abuse by the estonian public on several occasions.
More on the subject:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5057142.stm
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=30581&name=Dutch+Ambassador+to+leave+‘homophobic’+Estonia+
It seems that racist, homophobic and nationalistic mentality is very much on the rise in the former Soviet states, especially in Russia. Poland has also very rapidly become quite inhospitable to non-heterosexual people and to other ethnicities besides the polish.
I just hope that this “neo-conservatism” and nationalistic thinking doesn’t gain similar foothold in Finland. Things are somehow ominously starting to resemble some recent history..
Comment by Åboy — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 12:41 am
Many restaurant owners won’t let any Gypsies in just because it could attract further Gypsi customers. The worst case scenario naturally being that Gypsies would bring their whole family community with them eventually, which would alianate other customers.
Comment by Johannes — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 1:19 am
It’s progress that this is being openly discussed and put under the spotlight. It should be made known to all that this kind of treatment of people is simply not acceptable, not to mention illegal. I’m applauding the roma in question who have taken it to court. An open discussion and legal precedents on what goes on are the best cures for discrimination. Well, here’s hoping, anyway.
Comment by Miriam — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:02 am
Johannes, why would gypsy customers be so much worse as customers for a restaurant owner than other customers? If they’re paying customers, surely that’s all restaurant proprietors are interested in, or?? And if I had a business, I’d also be quite happy if they said a good word of my establishment to other potential customers.
What you’re implying is that gypsies don’t pay/aren’t just generally tolerated.
Comment by Miriam — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:12 am
Few of my friends – including my grilfriend – come from Pori and are not racists, but they can also verify the fact that Gypsies there can couse a lot of trouble. There are “legendary” Gypsies wwho everyone in Pori knows by name and who are always there (sometimes with guns) when something bad happens. I think those guys won’t do any good to the honest Gypsies around…
Comment by non-porian — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 7:31 am
Doesn’t surprise me. If gypsies behaves in restaurants like they behave at home and around their home, then I don’t see any point in letting them in. One gypsy family lives in the same apartment building as I do and another family in a building cross a street. They’re noisy, they keep smoking in the stairs, half of them behaves arrogantly towards us others, they drive just as carelessly as if they have their own set of laws, they often have loud verbal fights and sometimes cops have to be called in.
Why do these same people expect us to follow the common rules if they can’t do it themselves? This is truly the era of the minorities – the rights of majority are forgotten in favor of the minorities.
I haven’t met many rational gypsies and living in the same building has made me ever more critical towards them. If they’d really like to be accepted by the majority, then they should blend in with the rest and not try to keep up their culturality everywhere where they go. I mean.. whats the point with the huge dress that the women wear every day and hour? It’s not like the rest of us dresses similarly to the figures of Kalevala, except for some rare celebration. As obvious I’m not in favor of the multiculturalism thing which seems to be the thing in todays europe. Minor cultures will always blend into the majority and trying to stop the natural progress will only cause more grief. Like obvious in this case; gypsies life style simply doesn’t fit into todays world.
I suppose the drunken bums could just as well claim to be a minority and demand respect while causing the disrespect all by themselves.
Comment by S.Y — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 8:50 am
What surprises me is that this is surprising to anyone. Finland remains a very homogeneous nation, almost a monoculture. In such a society, anyone visibly different is treated with suspicion.
The opening of Finland to the outside world in recent years (especially post EU-accession) is changing that, but its a slow process.
As for the Estonian story, well I can’t say much about that, except to maybe question the wisdom of the Dutch government in sending an openly gay ambassador and his gay black partner there in the first place. Good that he’s going to be consul-general in Canada tho, that sounds like a big step up.
-BM
Comment by Badgermushroom — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 8:51 am
If they’d really like to be accepted by the majority, then they should blend in with the rest and not try to keep up their culturality everywhere where they go.
QED.
-BM
Comment by Badgermushroom — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 8:54 am
Heh, more details emerge.
Person appearing in the story, Dimitri, has apparently an eternal ban to rent movies from local Makuuni due unpaid charges etc., but the staff can’t tell it to him since he’d wreck the place or something.
Comment by non-porian — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 9:27 am
The fact is that the Finnish Roma community is and has always been mired with social problems. Unemployment, dropping out of school, violence, crime, substance abuse, neglect of children, etc. are all vastly more widespread among the Roma than the general population.
The Finnish social authorities have willingly gone along with this nonsense by tolerating the problems in the name of multiculturalism. A good example of this is the fact that a very high percentage (perhaps 20%, I’ve forgotten) of working-age Roma in Finland are on disability pension. It is not because they have actual disabilities (other than “lorvikatarri”), but because the authorities have deemed that it’s easier to just hand out money to them every month until they die than deal with their chronic unemployment and the resultant problems again and again and again.
There is no escaping the fact that many, many Roma are troublemakers. Business owners in Finland are keenly aware of this fact, and their discrimination against the Roma is not based on race but their long experience, which has taught them that wherever there are Roma, there’s a considerable likelihood of thievery, violence, and other disruptions that will drive away customers. And this “racism” is by no means limited to native Finns: for example, I know Turks, who run a restaurant in Helsinki, and they hate the Roma for precisely the above reasons.
Comment by Turjake — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:07 am
i’ve never had _any_ problems with any other race and have absolutely *nothing* against foreigners.
but Romas are a race of bullshitters and thieves. I feel sorry for the few genetic mutations, i really do.
i’d like to invite hank w to live with them everyday instead of shouting from his castle “be nice”.
it’s hard to be tolerant against them when you don’t have a single good experience from them.
don’t judge me as a megaracist, as i said i have no problems with other races.
Comment by complete stranger — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:13 am
The comments made by Hank and the other Finns say it all. Racism is most definitely alive and kicking in Finland. Racism exists in all societies. However, the level and intensity of racism in Finland is remarkable. The story from Pori is just the tip of a rather massive iceberg. Unfortunately, the situation will not improve until Finns recognise that THEY have a problem that THEY have to address. Personally, I can’t see this happening. Hank’s comments are fairly typical. His first response is to go into denial mode. Things will not improve here until Finns ditch this denial culture
The original article in the HS also included a rather sad quote from some city official. Rather than condeming the racism, stating that they would take action against those committing the racism etc etc all she could say was something along the lines that “at least there’s no discrimination by civil servants! For any foreigner who has lived in Finland this is a rather sick joke. In most countries racism is more prevalent in the private sector. In Finland the reverse is true, indicating institutionalised racism within the apperatus of the Finnish state.
One final point. Finland is rather small insignificant country by international standards. Outside Finland few people know what goes on here, and even fewer care. However, having said that the racism that does exist in Finland WILL become more known internationally over time. Finns have only really had the chance to be racist in the last 10 years (since joining the EU) Nationals from the new EU states now have the THEORETCIAL right to work here. Expect some more bad publicity and Internet rants from pissed off Poles who tried their luck in Finland, but instead encountered racism and the typical Finnish welcome to foreigners who dare to live in Finland.
Certainly when I return home I will also reply honestly to the question “So, what did you think about Finland?” I will also continue to write magazine articles about my perceptions of various aspects of life in Finland.
At the end of the day if you want foreigners to say nice things about Finland you have to treat them well. Telling them that “We Finns are honest” “Finns are modest” etc just won’t work especially when we are amongst friends or when we no longer live in Finland
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:15 am
i’d like to invite hank w to live with them everyday instead of shouting from his castle “be niceâ€Â.
As a matter of fact there are Roma living in my house. And apart from them leaving the big volvo occasionally on the driveway a bit rudely, theres not been much if any trouble. Theres a quite visible number of Roma in the area in general, and the youth do make a ruckus at the train station at times. I’ve also worked as a security in malls and I know how much stuff can fit into a skirt. But what I am saying that a blanket treatment is wrong.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:21 am
Oh yes, we accept your differences from the mainstream as long as you keep it from our sight at all times. We even accept the funny dresses on your women folk, but wear them at your homes (far from ours), after the dark…curtains pulled. There really is no concievable reason to be bone headed and insist on stucking out like a sore thumb, is there? You can change and become just like us – loveable pink Santa Clauses. Your disturbing and scary dark complexion can be altered and improved these days. If in doubt, ask Michael Jackson!
Comment by Petteri — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:26 am
the situation will not improve until Finns recognise that THEY have a problem that THEY have to address.
I thought the issue was that the Pori restauranteurs had found a problem and were addressing it?
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:28 am
This situation is addressed in Pori,but it still leaves one some what puzzled that such a basic right is violated. This is an issue which should be condemned by everyone, period. There is this one bad trouble maker Roma in Pori and that should make it acceptable to deny an entry for some other member of the entire ethnic group, is nothing short of a travesty of a human decency. I find it sad that most xenophobic membersof any given society are the ones that talk about that; “if you only would become like us we would let you be you.” Sorry, it just doesn’t make sense!
Comment by Petteri — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:51 am
#13 Hank’s comments are fairly typical. His first response is to go into denial mode. Things will not improve here until Finns ditch this denial culture
What do you mean “denial mode”? If I’d written an article “there is no discrimination in Pori” that’d been a denial.
Respect and appreciation are given to those who deserve it. Not to those who demand it. People do expect respect also from others. What makes you so special someone should respect or appreciate you more than others? Your pleasant character, intelligent discourse, or shiney golden arse?
The issue here is not that we’d somehow magically start to like people with shiney arses. The issue is that one ought not discriminate as a blanket group against people they suspect having a gilt arse. Now after the person drops their pants and wiggles their bum in front of you, I quite understand some people wanting to kick it. I don’t see how it is we’d have to appreciate someone’s arsewiggling if its not our way of doing things. But one should wait and see if the pants drop before saying “no to bums” at the door.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 11:03 am
i think Finnish Honest is in the denial mode with his BLIND “love&accept _everything_” -”anti-racism”.
i’d go as far as saying that if you can behave and respect the native culture here, you’ll do just fine.
just a small btw: my mother is a foreigner and she has never experienced any serious racism towards her.
Comment by complete stranger — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 11:37 am
Miriam – Because they are considered loud and aggressive. When gypsies start flocking in a restaurant, other customers will eventually disappear. If most people in Pori won’t eat with gypsies isn’t it bad business letting them in?
Comment by Johannes — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 11:51 am
It’s not like the rest of us dresses similarly to the figures of Kalevala, except for some rare celebration.
Oh, don’t make me comment on Finnish fashion. What’s wrong with their costume? It is better than the urine soaked pants of the drunks in the parks. Not to mention, it’s not like the rest of Finland dresses like Lordi…well, it’s often not necessary. All Hank needs is a dye job and some stubby horns, right Hank?
By the same logic, I’m surprised restaurants haven’t started barring yankees from their establishments as they generally talk really loudly and not in Finnish. They stick out, too.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 11:52 am
And in the libertaerian utopia the business owners are free to discriminate whoever they want.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 11:58 am
just a small btw: my mother is a foreigner and she has never experienced any serious racism towards her.
There is foreign and there is foreign. I’m foreign, but I’m a white male english-native professional who also speaks Finnish. So far, no racism.
There is also not-foreign. The Roma are not foreign, they are Finns. So are the swedish-speaking, russian-speaking and Tatar(sp?) Finns.
It has to be said at this point that I don’t think the degree of rasism in Finland is anything like as bad as in other countries. A lot of it (towards foreigners) is born out of lack of expereince with other cultures, rather than outright racism. That’s why I remain confident that continued exposure to other people and cultures will help reduce rasism in Finland.
-BM
Comment by Badgermushroom — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 12:06 pm
Also, I clearly cannot spell racism. So the less of it the better.
-BM
Comment by Badgermushroom — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 12:08 pm
@ hfb:
By using “arguments” like that (as in your post #21) you are guilty of the same sin as the person you’re trying to critize. Like that person you’re just spinning up oversimplifications and undue generalizations.
Saying that all finns are poorly dressed drunks who wallow on their own excrements is frankly very insulting and also quite bigoted.
Comment by Åboy — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 12:32 pm
[Edit #25: "..trying to criticize.."]
Comment by Åboy — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 12:34 pm
Since when has Pori been “Deep North”?
Comment by Passer-by — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 12:55 pm
Post 11 is right in that many Roma have problems, pretty serious ones. Being refused service in restaurants should be the least of their worries, but since it’s illegal, it should be easier to get some action on that. Arguably a part of the problem is that the authorities have given up on them and decided to just give them money and hope the problems will go away somehow. Heikki Lampela (a part-Roma lawyer and a Kokoomus City councillor in Espoo) used to criticize the authorities for helping to perpetuate a culture of dependency. IIRC he was quite used to both being refused entry (as a Roma) and being told that ‘you’re not a real Roma’ (because he was a reserve officer with a degree, a career etc).
I think some benign social engineering (i.e. not like the old days, when their kids could be taken away put in a home and so forth) might be in order. Some incentives to any who look like they might finish school and get a job.
Oh well. There’s been progress. In the 50′s the City of Helsinki used to house homeless Romanies in disused railway carriages.
And there were violent incidents in Malmi, with a couple of deaths.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 1:05 pm
Aboy – I didn’t say anything other than, if I have to choose between the rather swishy Roma skirts and the drunks reeking in their own pissed-on clothing in the scale of ‘we don’t want anyone different ’round these parts’ kind of attitude that the former is way more appealing. Perhaps you were trying too hard to be offended.
I note you didn’t take issue with the loud americans comment though
*pfftttt*
Comment by hfb — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 1:26 pm
“If they’d really like to be accepted by the majority, then they should blend in with the rest and not try to keep up their culturality everywhere where they go.
QED.
-BM ”
So in other words people should not expect that gypsies follow laws, but people should just accept that they carry guns, fight and cause problems?
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
“The story from Pori is just the tip of a rather massive iceberg. ”
And this comes from a person what any knowledge of the actual situation in Pori or the situation with the gypsies in general. Find out the facts before you spew your rants.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 1:30 pm
“Certainly when I return home I will also reply honestly to the question “So, what did you think about Finland?†I will also continue to write magazine articles about my perceptions of various aspects of life in Finland.”
You do that, as I’m currently doing about the US and UK where I’ve lived for a long time. Both countries with enormous social problems and both have committed war crimes. Everyone knows the situation in the US, but many people aren’t really aware of the enormous social problems and ill-being in the UK, the land of the world’s heaviest drinking women, the home of football hooliganism, and the country with serious problems in education.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
“The Roma are not foreign, they are Finns.”
They are not Finns. Finns are an ethnic group and the Romas are an ethnic group. The Romas belong to the ethnic group of Roma. They are Finnish citizens, but they are not Finns. If I move to Sweden and get the Swedish citizenship, it doesn’t make me a Swede, just a Swedish citizen.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
#2: is this another attempt of deflecting criticism away from Finland by citing negative examples from other countries?
And your final remark seems to deny any problems in Finland today:
“I just hope that this “neo-conservatism†and nationalistic thinking doesn’t gain similar foothold in Finland”
Comment by observer — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
hfb
one roma woman once told me that one reason for them to wear those skirts is because it can hide a lot of stolen stuff.
So I don’t know which is better drunks in their urine soaked pants or roma women with their macgyver skirts
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:07 pm
# 35 “one roma woman once told me that one reason for them to wear those skirts is because it can hide a lot of stolen stuff.”
Did you learn this by engaging in some friendly casual chit chat with the woman, perhaps on a tram one day?
Comment by observer — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
@anon, post 30,
I’d like both the Romany and the restaurants to obey the law. If it’s not too much to ask.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:20 pm
Finns are like the Nazis. Both beleive that they are the master race, and that others are sub-human. There is no other explanation for the behaviour of many Finns, and some of the comments posted here also support this view. Disgraceful.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
“I don’t know which is better drunks in their urine soaked pants or roma women with their macgyver skirts” (anon, post 35)
Anon, try standing downwind of a spuge the next time you meet one.
You’ll know.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:34 pm
Being of a master race and being a master in your own house are two different things…
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
Go and have a wash
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:44 pm
Since when has Pori been “Deep North�
Well, since north is past Ring I then past Ring III…
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
Hank – and then there’s being a master bater ….:)
Comment by hfb — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
@43,
I thought there was a mistake in #41, it’s -nk, not -sh.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
During my university studies I worked for five years in two small shops in Helsinki. I had to attend the shop alone most of the time and a group of gypsies (fro 2-10 people) came in weekly to harass and threathen me (sometimes with a kife) and steal stuff. The police could not do anything as they always came too late. Never had any problems with any other people apart from some junkie or alcoholic coming in once-twice a year.
Comment by Shop Assistant — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
Yeh, I’ve seen Hank in the flesh, and he looks like a right master bater. Go and have a wash
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 2:58 pm
They are not Finns. Finns are an ethnic group and the Romas are an ethnic group. The Romas belong to the ethnic group of Roma. They are Finnish citizens, but they are not Finns. If I move to Sweden and get the Swedish citizenship, it doesn’t make me a Swede, just a Swedish citizen.
By that “logic”, i am not American, i am Mexican. As well as GREAT MANY people are not Americans, they are (insert various ethnic group here). Well done! You should probably not post anymore opinions on this subject ever again. The world would appreciate it’s incredibly low collective IQ level to not go any lower.
As a person i am disgusted by the ignorance and racism towards Finnish-Roma, Russians and Eastern Europeans. Lately, here in Pori, i have heard a lot of resentment towards this groups. Being a “minority” in America i can appreciate their position and i feel for them.
I do wait for the time when people will openly discriminate against fucking idiots. Absolute, unadulterated anarchy.
Comment by gopha — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
“these” groups…
Typing 101, here i come!
Comment by gopha — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
@ hfb (post #29):
So you’re saying that drinking yourself to oblivion and laying in the gutter in your own vomit and piss is as common to the average ethnic finn as wearing the traditional Roma-gown is to the average ethnic roma woman?
@ observer (post #34):
I’m not trying to diminish the case in hand, not at all. I’m just noticing that this kind of thinking and behaviour is becoming more and more common even in countries close to Finland and that I hope this doesn’t gain a more secure foothold in finnish society as well. I see the situation in Pori partly as an example of this kind of racist and “neo-conservatist” thinking becoming more popular and I find it disturbing, that’s all.
Comment by Åboy — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 3:17 pm
@gopha,
by that logic you’d actually be American, but palefaces like G.W.Bush wouldn’t be.
But the Roma are a culturally distinct group, and Finns are used to including in and excluding people (Swedish-speakers, Roma, Saami…) from the concept ‘Finns’, depending on the context.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
Earlier I wrote that Finland’s reputation for racism would gradually spread. I’ve also previously written that in the future there will be progressively fewer immigrants to Finland. Today, on YLE there’s this rather interesting piece that PROVES that immigration into Finland is already begining to decline. This must all come as somewhat of a shock for nationalistic, boastful Finns. Come on YOU believe that Finland’s got the best education, health care etc etc etc in the world. Well if that’s true how come so few people want to come here? Don’t blaim the climate because Norway and Sweden have foreign populations that make up over 10% of the country, whereas poor old Finland can only scrape 2%
Here’s the article
“OECD: Migration to Finland Drops
Meanwhile, a report issued Thursday by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) notes that migration to Finland has dropped sharply. That bucks the international trend toward rising immigration into wealthy countries.
In 2004, the organisation says, the number of immigrants settling in Finland dropped by a quarter from the year before. The figures do not include short-term stays such as students or seasonal workers.
YLE24, Finnish News Agency, Reuters”
Finland has a rapidly ageing population. The Finns will pay a severe economic price for its racism, that is only now becoming known outside of Finland
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
Aboy – Uh….no. Boy, you’re sure working awfully hard at making my ‘HEY IF THE GUY THINKS THAT ROMA WOMEN ARE BEING OFFENSIVE BY BEING DIFFERENT AND WEARING THEIR GOWNS THEN MAYBE HE HASN’T SPENT ENOUGH TIME IN PROXIMITY TO THAT OTHER ATTRACTIVE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO STAND OUT BY SMELL’ comment into something completely different. If you want to be offended, that’s your business, but don’t twist my words.
And you missed gopha’s point. In the US, if you’re a citizen, you’re an American. Period. We have too many immigrants and ethnicities to be so exclusive as Finland.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 3:43 pm
comment 36#
she happened to be one of my friends mother.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
Let’s see what happens to the racist Juntti’s thatrun these bars and “restaurants” in Pori. The institutionalised racism in Finnish society will allow these racist idiots to get away with it. What odds on a €50 fine (if they’re really unlucky) anyone. Most likely they will just be asked not to do it again.
Its all happened before anyway in Helsinki. The bar owners refused entry to Roma and they didn’t get fined a cent. The police deliberately sat on many of the cases until they were time expired, so most didn’t even get to court! Its all described in an piece done by 6Degrees last year “Saturday night fever, but only if you’re White!”
Finns have anti-racist laws, but in practice we all know that they are not worth the paper they are written on because there is no will on the part of the police and the courts to enforce these laws. The lwas are fake, just like many other things in Fake Finland
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
Who do the Finns think they are kidding?
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:06 pm
Being of a master race and being a master in your own house are two different things… -#40, Hank W.
The question is, are you the master of your domain?
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Your_Domain )
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:07 pm
#51. What is the trouble with you – do you have a worm in your head?
The “nationalistic boastful” Finns are well aware nobody wants to move here, due to certain facts of life. Shit economy being one. You have an ageing popluation, but does anyone want to move here for the cheap prices, low taxes, high salaries etc? Sweden has had an active immigration policy since the 1960′s to get their share of “gastarbeiters” and Norway has oil. Finland has trees to count.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:10 pm
@ hfb (post #52):
Haven’t commented anything on gopha’s posts. (Perhaps you mistook prince of dorkness’ post to be mine?)
@ Finnish honesty:
You can huff’n puff all you want, either here in Finland or in wherever you’re going to go and punish people with your presence next. Once you open your mouth people will quickly realize that you’re really not quite right in the head, you know, and they’ll soon start to ignore everything you say or write. So go ahead, huff’n puff your brains out.
Comment by Åboy — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
Hank: You speak heresy!
“Finland has a shit economy”
So you didn’t beleive all that boastful nonsense that got wall to wall coverage in the Finnish media concerning the WEF putting Finland as the top of its international competitiveness league table.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:23 pm
@52,
yes, I understand, everybody is at least a potential American.
But who wants to be a Finn? Not FH, for sure.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
Aboy its self-evident that no one takes what you write seriously! Just speak for yourself and keep your childish insults to yourself. You are a great advert for the Finnish education system. You can’t debate or analyse. When faced with a point of view you disagree with you just make up random abuse about someone you have never met. Address the arguments and issues, you should at least know something about them. Keep your made up fantasies of me to your self. You have no idea who my contacts are!
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
So you stop huffing and puffing!
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
#54 That was my point exactly. They have the laws, but they’re not enforced.
However theres a bigger “problem” in the police/court system not having enough resources/money to investigate “trivial” things like some foreigner not being let into a bar. And yes, I say it is in the trivial category as nobody is dead and nobody got robbed. The police/courts need to prioritize the “crimes” and someone being discriminated comes on the list *after* someone being mugged. The police don’t care to investigate someone stealing your bicyle, ewhen they have a gold store heist. Is someone stealing your bike “trivial”? Probably it hurts you more than the gold store owner. But the police don’t see it that way. So some foreigner whining about not being let into a bar is on the list after more “serious” crimes, even discrimination is not a “trivial” issue.
But I still want my bicycle back before the foreigner can go to the bar
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
So you didn’t beleive all that boastful nonsense that got wall to wall coverage in the Finnish media concerning the WEF putting Finland as the top of its international competitiveness league table.
I think you can’t analyze what you read. Look at what the UPM-Kymmene id in Kuusankoski-Voikkaa? They “increased competitiveness” there. Meaning they close a factory and people are unemployed. That means UPM is “competitive” on the market, but the local economy is gone to the shits. And you answer is what – more immigrants to Kuusankoski?
Finland has seen whole factories close down and production opened up in sweatshops in “cheaper countries”. Now you see the “cheaper countries” sweathsops close down to sweathsops in even cheaper countries. Globalization you know. So when the factory is gone, why do you need immigrants? To join the soup kitchen queues?
Finnish taxation also effectively discourages enterpreneurship or even working two jobs. The employee costs for hiring a person are so high, so you don’t have “small jobs” like in other places, and you can’t hire linguistically challenged foreigners imagining you can hire someone to do translating for them. No, you have an overworked and underpaid annoyed Finn doing a job where in foreign countries you’d have 10 people providing “service”. So there is no use bringing in immigrants if they can not/will not do the same underpaid overworked job.
*That* is why I say “shit economy”. Something needs to change, but I don’t see us going the way of Estonia re. their market capitalism. Estonia has a better deal with enterpreneurship, but then again if you are poor and unemployed life isn’t as rosy.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
“Aboy its self-evident that no one takes what you write seriously!”
Only to you, you poor thing, only to you.
“Just speak for yourself and keep your childish insults to yourself.”
Let’s make a deal: I’ll start as soon as you do.
“You are a great advert for the Finnish education system.
Well at least that’s better than your situation, seeing as you obviously aren’t a great advert for any education system.
“You can’t debate or analyse.”
Are you claiming that you can?
Come on, don’t fool yourself. Compared to you I’m Plato.
“You have no idea who my contacts are!”
Awww… How sweet. Is this the part where you run to your daddy and he’ll come and beat my daddy up?
Shaking my boots, darling.
Comment by Åboy — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:48 pm
Finnish honesty: Please shut up. You’ve already said everything you have to say. You just keep repeating the same mantras in every comment you write without engaging in discussion. You lost every last bit of credibility you had by attacking Hank W. personally in #46. What a stupid piece of sh*t.
Comment by mh — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
Just a couple of days ago the dutch ambassador to Estonia, Hans Glaubitz, resigned from his post because he and his cuban-born partner Raul Garcia Lao had been targeted by estonian skinheads and the estonian public. They were subjected to racial and homophobic abuse by the estonian public on several occasions.
We’ve been discussing this on my blog. One issue that has come up is that the Estonian word for ‘black person’ is ‘neeger.’ The alternative word for black (as in the color black) – ‘must’ is also a synonym for ‘dirty’ so calling black people ‘must’ would be more insulting.
Hence, people pointing at Mr. Garcia Lao and calling him ‘neeger’ might be interpreted by him as offensive, when they are really just pointing out a black person – as not many black people live in Estonia.
I have to say something here though – why should Finland or Estonia be singled out for intolerance, especially sometimes by European NGOs that come from places like France – with its riots last autumn – or Glaubitz’s own The Netherlands – home to the Theo Van Gogh murder, the effort to strip Ayaan Hirsi Ali of her citizenship, and the assasination of Pim Fortuyn in 2002. I’m from the United States – and guess what – when I went to school in Washington DC in the 90s, there were some individuals that likes to spray paint swastikas and the ‘n word’ in prominent places.
It’s not just a Finnish/Polish/Russian/Estonian thing. If Western Europe needs Eastern Europe to make it feel better about itself in the wake of its 7/7 bombings and Paris riots, that’s fine. But it isn’t necessarily true.
Comment by giustino — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 5:35 pm
And we’d in Finland just taught kids not to call the Romanies “mustalainen”…
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
When I was in Finland I was harassed by Roma on two occasions. The first time, an old woman tried to steal my lunch in downtown Helsinki. She literally reached into my bag and tried to take my food out, right in front of me.
The second time, I was in a bar in Seinajöki and the Roma man showed some interest in a British friend, which prompted is wife to come in, curse in her face, and break glasses on the floor.
It was totally nuts!
Comment by giustino — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
I worked night shifts alone in a gas station one summer. The only time I was seriously verbally abused was from a young roma guy. Occasionally romas would also steal some stuff (nothing much, a beer bottle for example). There were also older roma couples who behaved very nicely and caused no problems. The youngster’s behaviour made me feel sorry for them.
Sure, the finnish drunks were annoying dickheads too, but I never felt threatened by them.
Comment by m — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
from a -> by a
Comment by m — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Like, what’s their deal? (not all of them, the ones that steal stuff/and or break things) Is stealing some sort of Roma vice?
Comment by giustino — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
It is like the Estonian stereotype of Finns being drunk all the time. And you go to Tallinn and wonder why the Estonians have such a stereotype.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 8:54 pm
Q: How do you starve a Roma family to death?
A: Hide the welfare checks/food coupons under dad’s working shoes.
Still, even if 99% of a given minority are career criminals or known to misbehave (and I’m not claiming this of the Roma), it still doesn’t justify a blanket treatment. It should be remembered that this is a two-way street: it must be hell to be a decent, hardworking gypsy, as you’re always expected to be no good from the get go. With all of Finnish dishonesty’s insane rants, he does have a point here. Finnish society can be intolerant and bigoted at times.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:26 pm
Gopha wrote: “Being a “minority†in America i can appreciate their position and i feel for them.”
You are not the first one. I was living in a student “cell” in Koivukylä with Mr. Martinez, who was an artist from Laredo, TX and on Fulbright scholarship at Kuvataideakatemia. One morning the doorbell rang. There were was a couple gypsys with a refrigerator asking for Toro. Later I heard he had traded some vodka for the fridge, as he thought the “cell” fridge was too small. There must have been something in it, as Toro didn’t speak any finnish, except the obscenities, I taught him on request and those gypsy’s didn’t speak english or spanish.
We have had the Roma here for 500 years. I think it is some sort of love-hate relationship. They can be obnoxious and there is discrimination against them, yet the worst rednecks may dig some tango music by Taisto Tammi or Rainer Friman or go to buy the bottle from the gypsys, if living in the countryside, far away from Alko. Then they laugh about Friman surely being the first gypsy in the world with a burn-out and tell their kids to eat well, or they’ll end-up like the gypsy’s horse; just when it learned to quit eating completely, it died.
One friend of mine bought a house from some Roma family and had to put sign “Myymälä suljettu” (out of business) to get some peace from the old regular customers…
When the finnish army was really “horse powered”, many Roma men served as horsemen. I think their wartime memorial at Hietaniemi, a broken carriage axle, is quite impressive.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:36 pm
Finnish society can be intolerant and bigoted towards anyone not fitting in. You don’t have to be more than from Rauma to not to be let into a disco in Pori “because we cannot guarantee your safety”. Look at the Finnish-Swedish language rants… and that has been going on for a few hundred years…
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:39 pm
“Finnish society can be intolerant and bigoted towards anyone not fitting in. You don’t have to be more than from Rauma to not to be let into a disco in Pori”
…Or from stinkin’ Ilomantsi. Or serve in the artillery.
I think they have this pole with arrows in Rauma pointing directions and distances to the various cities in the world. The Pori-arrow reads approximately 40000km. Rauma-society had also published a dictionary of Rauma dialect. The prices were 40mk for the members, 50mk for others and 60mk for the Pori residents.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Fri, Jun 9th, 2006 @ 10:53 pm
>Finnish society can be intolerant and bigoted towards anyone not
>fitting in.
Indeed. One of the worst shortcomings of this country IM(NS)HO.
This lack of conceptual diversity will, however, bite our collective ass bigtime in the future.
Unfortunately.
PS. Finnish honesty _does_ have a point or two buried in there somewhere. He goes all overboard with his incoherentish ranting, of course, but still…
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 12:42 am
hfb:
And you missed gopha’s point. In the US, if you’re a citizen, you’re an American. Period. We have too many immigrants and ethnicities to be so exclusive as Finland.
Yes, well, that’s why we have Finnish people (Swedish, Sami, Roma, Tatar, Jewish etc.) who are not ethnic Finns. American Indians notwithstanding, there is no such thing as an “ethnic American”.
But sure, the United States tends to be more receptive to immigrants of different ethnic backgrounds than most probably any nation in the world. Anything less from the nation of immigrants would be quite strange, IMHO.
By the way, what happened to you? You seem to have gone from the woman who was considering volunteering at Kalkkers (something which I wouldn’t dream of doing at my tender 30-something) to being disgusted enough by Punavuori bums (whom I’ve stepped over with nonchalance on my way to the kindergarten at 6) to start packing. Seems like a pretty strong change of heart.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 1:35 am
I think most foreigners (who are not political or economic refugees) who move to Finland are initially very positive at first.
After a few years, however, they become disillusioned and move on.
I have seen this played out time and time again.
We have talked about the quiet and withdrawn Finn. But, many Finns are also just downright distrustful, and unwelcoming to foreigners. And many others have an arrogant and nose up in the air attitude.
Besides the other drawbacks about living in Finland, often it is the attitude of the locals where are the last straw for foreigners before they move on.
If Finns wants to attract a quality immigrant workforce to help soften the upcoming demographic trends of an aging population, it should now start to do some soul searching.
Comment by observer — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 1:36 am
PS. Finnish honesty _does_ have a point or two buried in there somewhere. He goes all overboard with his incoherentish ranting, of course, but still…
I wouldn’t give him too much credit, though. A blind chicken will occasionally pick up a grain, and Finnish dishonesty has been pecking pretty frantically.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 1:42 am
American Indians notwithstanding, there is no such thing as an “ethnic Americanâ€Â.
The ruling class of the United States (most of not all of our 43 presidents have come from this class) have had origins in the following regions 1) the present day UK and Ireland (Washington, Adams, Jefferson….Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush 2) The Netherlands (Van Buren, Roosevelt, Roosevelt) and 3) Germany (Eisenhower)
All of these families have been in America since at least the mid-18th century. This is the US ‘founder’ population, along with African-Americans and Aboriginal Americans.
These are the people most thought of as stereotypical Americans. In Europe, few people recognize me as an American because I do not have an ‘American’ last name: ie Clinton, Bush, Smith…
Comment by giustino — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 4:38 am
#80 The thing is the Finns know the foreigner will come with their flashy car, whine, complain about Finland, and then leave. Leaving the Finn trudge along in the the misery here. The Finn knows everything the foreigner says and complains about is true, but the difference is the Finn has to spend his whole life in the country, and if he starts to think of all the misery involved he’ll probably go kill himself.
I for example know we have shit salaries, huge taxation, and expensive prices. How do you think I feel like sitting listening to some wanker complaining that his salary offer is half what it is at home, he got taxed on his car more than I’d be able to pay on mine ever, and complains of the prices, everything is so-o-o much cheaper back home. If everything is so much better back home, then why did you come here? To come tell me how I live in a dump and how life is so much better somewhere else?
Its no use telling us things we know. And its no use talking about things that everybody knows about. It is just no use.
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 5:29 am
Freeridin’ – Oh, I’d still volunteer at Kalkkers as it isn’t them that is sending me packing though I do wish they would not use the city like a giant toilet…but I largely blame the city for a lack of free toilets and aid for them and the social acceptability of being a drunk bum by society at large.
Observer – I think that describes quite a few of the expats who come here initially to make a life here and stick around for a long while. I certainly was among that crowd. But, over time, it’s the little things that pile up and finally get you to consider moving on. It’s not the low salaries or the cost of living, though certainly those work against you when weighing the decision to stay or go, but the overall and very clear picture that your own personal ability to fit in and have opportunities like your Finnish spouse are very limited.
Being an expat in such a dramatically different place is certainly an experience in really finding what you believe in, what you value, and also realising just what sort of shit you’re willing to accept from others. I thought I was old enough to know my own shadows, but even I had a few surprises in that department.
If you look at the migration stats from 2004 http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/04_maahanmuutto/finrep2003.pdf with particular attention to the net 2004 migration table, the US and UK both have very low net migration while other EU countries aren’t too far behind, but…the refugee countries, like Sudan, had 0 emmigration. So if one can extrapolate from this data and guess at some potential meaning is that people with someplace else to go often do. For a country who has a need for labour, especially when only 30% of the population aged 60-65 work and the fact that it takes so long for immigrants to learn the language to even minimal levels and get a job here, you’d think someone would be really asking the expats leaving as to why they are going. It’s not the “shit salaries, huge taxation and expensive prices” as everyone bitches about those no matter which continent you’re on.
Guistino – Bollocks. Besides, you forgot the Kennedys who were the closest thing we had to royalty and they were Irish. Of course, this might explain why we’ve had so many drunks in the white house. And, with a funky accent and a British name, I’m often mistaken for a Brit by non-Brits. I don’t often discourage that these days.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 8:33 am
American Indians notwithstanding, there is no such thing as an “ethnic Americanâ€Â. -Freeridin’ Franklin, #70
I don’t think that’s accurate. Yes, the presure to assimilate is high,but there are these considerations:
1. “Non-white” Americans are often considered ethnic Americans — no matter how long their family has been in the U.S. This goes for the descendents of Chinese immigrants who came during the Gold Rush (mid-1800s) to California, Tejano or Chicano people who’s families have been here for hundreds of years, and so on and so on and so on.
2. Many groups of immigrants in the U.S. did or have set up communities that have preserved ethnic identies. Even many ‘white’ people, who’s ethnic communities are not as strong as they were up until the 1970s, still have strong community ethnic-ties. Many of these communities are stronger for Americans ‘of color’ (due to racist divides), but they still do exist for Americans of probably every strip.
There have been, and there continues to be a great deal of academic study devoted to ethnic American communities and traditions. This is also true for, for example, Finnish-Americans. The area in which this year’s annual Finn-Fest is to be, the forested county’s population is 75% Finnish.
There are many, many ethnic churches (many of which have non-English services, including Finnish
), towns, neighborhoods, community centers and so forth.
Finally, there is a progressing trend in U.S. study and culture which is embracing the idea of a ‘cultural mosaic’ rather than a ‘melting pot’. In fact, last week’s New York Times had an article about the revival of the French-American community in Maine.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 10:25 am
“very clear picture that your own personal ability to fit in and have opportunities like your Finnish spouse are very limited.”
That certainly applies if you don’t speak Finnish. Not many opportunities in the US for non english speakers either.
Comment by m — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 11:04 am
It’s no surprise that hfb denies the racist history of her beloved country. It’s after all the Finns who must be the racists.
But American racism in the past now, right?
Try: “Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism”
http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/
Loewen’s “Rethinking our past recognizing facts, fictions, and lies in American history” is a good point to start, too. (It has something to do with PirateBay, but don’t ask me what …)
But, hfb, perhaps it’s better to stay away from these titles for your mental health’s sake. After all, the Americans are flawless, aren’t they, and they never pee in public, not even in Brooklyn …
Comment by spendler — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 12:04 pm
#83:
Please read my comments in #80 again.
I did not say that I left Finland for economic reasons.
I left because I found Finland unwelcoming to foreigners.
I indicated that many of us foreigners came to Finland originally optimistic about life here. Some of us – in the early stages of our stay – were probably even more pro-Finland than the typical Finn.
Most of us came to Finland fully aware of the nature of the pay, taxes, expenses etc. Nothing about these issues were viewed as particularly negative, and they did not deter our coming.
And, similarly, when many of us left or plan to leave after becoming disillusioned, these economic issues were not the primary reasons for our leaving.
For myself, and probably a large number of departing expats, the reason that we left was because of the unwelcoming attitude that we felt here. Worse than the high taxes, low wages and high expenses (which you mention in your post and which I did not in my post 80) were the constant low-grade saracastic, arrogant and kotimainen laatu attitude of a sizeable minority in Finland, who simply do not like foreigners in Finland, and who have an exalted opinion of themselves. Furthermore, the generally cold and aloof collective personality of Finns also did not help.
I am not bitter. I simply just weighted the pro’s and con’s, and felt disappointed that Finland in reality for a foreigner is different than what I hopefully anticipated at the onset.
I have many Finnish friends, and without them, I would have left much earlier. I have many good memories of my stay in Finland, and it was by no means without some very good times. And I periodically come back to Finland to visit during my holidays.
I feel that Finland will gradually change for the better in its attitudes toward foreigners, but I was not prepared to wait out the process, and so I boarded a plane and left. Once I left, this unwelcoming attitude was no longer my problem, but it remains your’s.
Comment by observer — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 12:10 pm
M – No, it’s more than that, but yes, the language matters. Just as Roma are not Finns, so too is it clear that most anyone else gets that same distinction. It’s a broad spectrum of lots of little things that, when considered as a whole, it’s not worth the fight to stay.
And, not speaking English in the US doesn’t mean you won’t get a job like it does here if you don’t speak Finnish. Immigrants get the shit jobs that nobody wants like picking produce and cleaning offices. Here, as Hank pointed out, labour is too expensive and with an unemployment level for native Finns running about 10%, it’s just not going to happen. Even with my masters and 15+ years of experience I didn’t get so much as a ‘fuck off’ when I applied for menial jobs. Even nurses, a labour pool Finland seems to be in desperate need of, get the HAND if they aren’t fluent in Finnish which effectively bars anyone not from Finland as what nurse wants to come here and spend a few years learning the language while unemployed/underemployed only to then take a rather large pay cut?
Finland is a small country with a non-IE language that is very different from just about every language in the EU (save Estonia) and while I appreciate the strong nationalism a homogenous population can tend to have, it’s not in a position to expect people to come to work in Finland if they are refused opportunity not only because of the language but also because they are not Finns. Clearly the migration statistics support that.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 12:16 pm
Not everybody fails:
http://www.6d.fi/portrait/page.2005-05-25.9814297803
Perhaps it should be noted that most Finnish emmigrants return or at least dream of returning. I guess it’s pretty universal not to feel at home outside your native country.
Comment by spendler — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 12:35 pm
I agree with “Observer”, especially posts 80 and 88
There are many things that I will miss about Finland. However, I too have found the Finns to be, at best, unwelcoming to foreigners.
However, unlike the observer I don’t think that Finland will improve. We haven’t even got to the first stage yet. The majority of Finns are still in denial. They refuse that their sick racist society has a real problem. Expect further decreases in immigration to Finland and more bad publicity
Comment by Finnish Honesty — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 1:49 pm
But Hank: Would you prefer Finland (language “issues” not withstanding) to change into what Sweden has become today, with immigrants creating no go areas, poor standards of education and a society that is falling into itself with denial.
Comment by Hugh Janus — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 2:06 pm
Dearest everybody, the discussion has taken some strange turns when it comes to migration to and from here. Once again there’s a lot of perhaps even deliberate disinformation here. Unlike at least Finnish honesty and hfb seem to claim above, migration to Finland is increasing all the time, with 2005 the year of the highest net migration to Finland ever in the history. Statistics even show that migration from other EU countries to Finland has been higher than migration from Finland to other EU countries continuosly since 1997. Although the figures are low by comparison to many other countries, the trend is clear and indisputable: Finland attracts more foreigners than foreign countries attract Finland.
Check the facts in Finnish on the Statistics Finland website (of course that racist, xenophobic, dishonest, nationalist, statist etc. etc. etc. organization doesn’t produce these graphics in English):
http://www.stat.fi/til/muutl/2005/muutl_2005_2006-05-05_tie_001.html
Now, it would be interesting to know what hfb and Finnish Honesty think now that the proven facts are completely to the contrary of their claims above.
MM
Comment by Moral minority? — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 3:58 pm
Correction to the above: 2005 wasn’t the year of the highest net migration ever but the year of highest migration ever. Last year “only” saw the highest net migration since 1991. And another one: migration from other EU countries to Finland has been on the increase since 1997 but there has been net migration only since 2001/2002. My apologies for some hasty translation work above.
MM
Comment by Moral minority? — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
Even with my masters and 15+ years of experience I didn’t get so much as a ‘fuck off’ when I applied for menial jobs.
As if we do. I think that we can all agree that the labour market in Finland sucks golf balls through garden hoses. I wonder if one has to pass some kind of an asshole test to become an employer or a representative of one in Finland (as a matter of fact, yes, and it’s called the Reserve Officer School.)
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 4:10 pm
“it’s not in a position to expect people to come to work in Finland”
I do not expect many people to come to work here. You should try working in France for example without speaking French. It’s equally difficult.
Comment by m — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 5:03 pm
“I wonder if one has to pass some kind of an asshole test to become an employer or a representative of one in Finland (as a matter of fact, yes, and it’s called the Reserve Officer School.)”
I’d have to agree with that. At least in certain industries.
Comment by m — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 5:06 pm
“I wonder if one has to pass some kind of an asshole test to become an employer or a representative of one in Finland (as a matter of fact, yes, and it’s called the Reserve Officer School.)”
Noo, the real mulquists graduate from aliupseerikoulu (like me). How many 2nd. lieutenants and captains run a dictatorship in the world? OK, there can be a junta of generals, but at the ranks of seargent and corporal, we can boast with some real personalities, such as Kekkonen and Hitler
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 5:07 pm
MM – Maybe you missed the Ministry of Labour pdf that I was referring to. You’re getting immigrants, yes, but emmigration is high in the US/UK/EU population whereas the people with nowhere else to go, i.e. refugees, seem to stick around. The MOL study also indicated that there is a net loss in educational levels with regards to migration.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
“You should try working in France for example without speaking French.”
France isn’t going to be the first country in the EU to experience the full force of retiring baby boomers bearing down on their working population as well as French being an IE language that is a world of levels easier to learn if you speak any of the romance languages natively.
The French, also, much to their credit, don’t immediately switch to English the moment you open your mouth and try speaking French, either. They are sometimes assholes about bad French skills, but they hold the line instead of assuming you’re incapable of communicating in their language. My French is awful to be sure, but I still managed.
The Germans are also this way, too. My grandfather refused to speak English, even in America.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 5:49 pm
were the constant low-grade saracastic, arrogant and kotimainen laatu attitude of a sizeable minority in Finland, who simply do not like foreigners in Finland, and who have an exalted opinion of themselves.
Well, thats how everyone is regarding their own ‘bellybutton’ here. You try moving from one town to another and you’ll find similar “unwelcome stranger” attitude. The trick is to show yourself better. To show yourself you can cope. Then you become one of “us”. Trying to carve a life here on the edge of civilization requires a mindset of its own.
Furthermore, the generally cold and aloof collective personality of Finns also did not help.
Collective personality – help, I have a Kekkonen in my brain!
but I was not prepared to wait out the process, and so I boarded a plane and left.
So in other words, you lacked the “sisu”.
So what you did was prove the point those unwelcoming nasty Finns had – a foreigner cannot cope with the realities of life here. And – those Finns will not have any incentive to change – because the foreigners are weak and leave. Those few foreigners who stay and try to make a change – you just made their job harder. Thanks mate.
Believe me, I’d love to board the plane and leave.
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 7:15 pm
Even with my masters and 15+ years of experience I didn’t get so much as a ‘fuck off’ when I applied for menial jobs.
Oh man, thats the dumbest thing to do. You don’t go apply for a “menial job” with a master’s degree and 15+ years experience. You go apply with a “dropped out of high school and being sniffing glue since”. For a “menial job” you need to be trained to do it. Now the employer knows with a masters degree you are just looking for another better job, you’re not interested in the job, and then when they finally get you trained for the job you have no interest in doing, you’ll bugger off. So really yes, no degrees when applying for those jobs. “Creative cv writing skills”…
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 7:22 pm
The MOL study also indicated that there is a net loss in educational levels with regards to migration.
Yeah, well go apply for a job after you graduate:
- we require work experience.
How the fuck does one get work experience if one doesn’t get a job?
Educated people of course want to leave. And that is why everyone switches to English tp practice it – they know English is a ticket abroad. Whereas teaching some foreigner Finnish – whats the use, they’ll be leaving shortly anyways, who the hell would wish to live here?
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 7:26 pm
I live in Pori and gypsies have quite a bad reputation here. No idea about the restaurant situation since I don’t drink and therefore I don’t visit restaurants.
Comment by Mikko Sandt — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 7:33 pm
Moral Minority: Read post 51
You have got your facts wrong again
Immigration to Finland is falling, and its the lowest in Western Europe
The source: YLE News yesterday
CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE WRITING NONSENSE
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 9:04 pm
Moral minority like most Finns you tell lies and you set out to deliberately mislead others
At best you must live in some sort of disillusional fantasy world
Who do you think you are kidding?
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 9:06 pm
Finnish dishonesty, it’s nice to notice how much trust you put in a state tv in a country you hate so much. It’s not worth the effort to try to discuss with you more. I’ve told it before that you’re a deliberate provocateur who has used other pseudonyms before and who’s in fact a Finn.
Who do you think you are kidding anyway?
MM
Comment by Moral minority? — Sat, Jun 10th, 2006 @ 10:14 pm
Hank, do we need to get you a mail-order bride to cheer you up?
Comment by hfb — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 12:37 am
Antti:
Noo, the real mulquists graduate from aliupseerikoulu (like me).
I’d wager that most petty officers in the reserves don’t entertain an illusion that they have learned all the management skills they’ll ever need in the army.
How many 2nd. lieutenants and captains run a dictatorship in the world?
Speaking of real personalities, Idi Amin comes to mind. Hitler was a private promoted to lance corporal.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 12:57 am
I don’t think it comes as a surprise to anyone but naturally hfb doesn’t know what she’s talking about … or is lying on purpose. See #84.
Net migration to Finland was 6 677. Sudan, of course, has pretty much nothing to do with the figure. The biggest net migration in 2004 came from – surprise! – Russia, Estonia and Sweden. The only people who were moving faster away than into Finland were Americans. An astounding -16 Americans “net migrated” (and propably even that figure is wrong because only “permanent immigrants” are counted). But reading whiners like hfb, no big surprise there either. Perhaps Americans want to move back to Watts, LA where nobody pees in public. I can’t tell for sure because I was told not to visit the area.
In the near future the baby-boomers will retire. What that will mean to the net migration figures? Perhaps even hfb can figure that out.
Anyway, hopefully hfb will soon join the Americans moving back to their perfect country where all people are sober and think marijuana is an exotic dance …
Here are the figures, by the way:
All nationalities 20 333 13 656 6 677
All foreign citizens 11 511 4 186 7 325
Russia (+ former S.U.) 1 939 353 1 586
Estonia 1 699 584 1 115
Sweden 678 376 302
China 433 131 302
Thailand 393 34 359
India 315 112 203
Germany 312 211 101
Sudan 299 0 299
UK 296 268 28
Afghanistan 284 8 276
Iraq 277 20 257
Turkey 249 30 219
USA 247 263 -16
Iran 232 18 214
Yugoslavia 219 26 193
Somalia 196 96 100
Italy 134 73 61
Ukraine 121 15 106
France 120 57 63
Poland 119 85 34
Finland 8 822 9 470 -648
Comment by spendler — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 10:52 am
The first figure is immigrants, the second emmigrants and the third net migration, by the way.
Comment by spendler — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 11:22 am
Immoral majority
Just admit that you made up the facts you mentioned earlier, and that worse still you accuse me, who got his facts right, a liar.
Immigration to Finland is falling
Point proved.
You lied.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 1:25 pm
Immigration to Finland is falling Point proved.
Häh? You can’t really be called a liar, I suppose, you’re just unbelievably stupid.
Comment by spendler — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
Finnish honesty, actually a couple of months ago when you provoked debate here under a previous pseudonym of yours, you were still worth some interest. Now, to be honest, you’ve turned into a comedian who is yet to realize that his joke has become old too long time and few people care anymore. What about reinventing yourself again?
MM
Comment by Moral minority? — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 5:06 pm
What about being honest yourself?
What about not making (proven) false alligations about others, accusing them of telling lies, when in fact it was you who just did that
What about an apology for making a false allegation?
What about an apology for telling lies on this forum, in this case, rather pathetically claiming that immigration to Finland is increasing when in fact YLE, Helsingin Sanomat, OECD etc etc all say the exact opposite
I don’t usually make personal comments, but in this case its justify, you are, without doubt, a person of extremly low intelligence who has no worries what so ever about lying.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 9:16 pm
What are YOU going on about pseudo names?
Who are you kidding Immoral (Finnish?) Majority
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 9:18 pm
#108 I *am* in good cheers
Comment by Hank W. — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 9:44 pm
113. You mean datsundatsun?
Comment by Hank W. — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 9:45 pm
“I’d wager that most petty officers in the reserves don’t entertain an illusion that they have learned all the management skills they’ll ever need in the army.”
Heh, that’s true, but we have also a special group of “I would have made a great 2nd. lieutenant, but I was too dumb to qualify for the course, so you are going to suffer for that (especially if you are a wiseass wearing glasses)” -type of petty officers.
According to my wife (who is a work psychologist) the leadership training on my petty officer course was straight from the 50′s, but I was there way back in the 90′s, so they didn’t have all this modern “deep management” buzz going on, like nowadays. Sure, these guys are awfully young, when they go to the reserve officer school and think they know everything at that age. Some don’t grow out of it even later on.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sun, Jun 11th, 2006 @ 10:53 pm
Hank…So I shouldn’t get you a greencard with boobs then?
Comment by hfb — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 8:18 am
hfb in 99:
could you indicate the address where these statistics can be found?
thanks.
Comment by observer — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 11:46 am
Geez…I think I’ve posted the address twice already in here. Maybe I should add a blink tag
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/04_maahanmuutto/finrep2003.pdf
Comment by hfb — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 12:11 pm
hfb in 121:
Thanks. A quick read of the stats show a negative demographic picture. The net migration is mostly of individuals from non-OECD countries, who are unemployed and draining social resources.
There is a slight net migration of individuals from OECD countries, and a negative net migration trend for Finns themselves.
Educational levels are dropping on a net migration basis, as you indicated.
So, net net, it appears a lower eduational profile for Finland (although this is slight) and the recent arrivals are drawing on social resources instead of contributing to society.
Finland needs the immigration of qualified educated individuals who can work and support the aging population.
Unless I missing something in my quick read, I don’t see this happening.
Comment by observer — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 1:11 pm
“Finland needs the immigration of qualified educated individuals who can work and support the aging population.”
1) The Great Labour Shortage has been just round the corner for as long as I can remember. Excuse me for being sceptical. Suggestions that ‘what we need now is 50 000 immigrants a year’ unaccompanied by any ideas about what the said immigrants would do have worn me down.
2) If Finland needs desirable immigrants, so does every other country (except for basket cases like the Congo). Why’d anybody come here?
3) I’m happy to listen to any suggestions about improving this place (I have to live here, unlike some people, and I’m not blind like certain other people). But I’m basically on the defensive on the reasonable assumption that ‘reform’ is these days shorthand for ‘bend over and grit your teeth’. Most change will be for the worse.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
#125, Prince of Darkness,
“Suggestions that ‘what we need now is 50 000 immigrants a year’ unaccompanied by any ideas about what the said immigrants would do have worn me down.”
Here are some suggestions on how to bring in some qualified immigrants:
First of all, since you have F-18′s which can’t be intercepted by the Swedish Grippens, you can fly over Sweden at will, and seed the clouds over Sweden so that it is always raining in Sweden, and less often in Finland so you have a few more nice sunny days in Finland. Foreigners are always bitching about the gray, cloudy and rainy weather in Finland.
Secondly, only allow ugly foreign men like me into Finland, who will not steal your women. I suspect that alot of the net negative Finnish migration is pretty Finnish girls moving out with their new found foreign partners.
Thirdly, only allow non-OECD types into Finland who can really cook a good curry or kebab or some other ethnic dish. These immigrants will then be working and hopefully paying taxes and not collecting social benefits. Furthermore, having good restaurants in Helsinki will further attract other desirable immigrants who were initially deterred from coming to Finland on account of the lack of interesting and spicy food.
Fourthly, if the Finns can contain their jealousy abit, perhaps they can provide an tax incentive for foreigners. For example, the first three years that a qualified and desirable immigrant is in Finland, his tax level is at a low level, perhaps at least at the same level of the country from which he is immigrating. That way, you can bring in alot of talented people (who are not from Sweden with an equally high tax level). I believe that Finland now gives some tax relief to foreign companies entering Finland, why not some tax relief to qualified individuals, who have the potential of being long term productive members of society.
Comment by observer — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 2:21 pm
“Fourthly, if the Finns can contain their jealousy abit, perhaps they can provide an tax incentive for foreigners.”
This has already been done, at least for foreigners who’re opening a small bussiness. Hence the numerous kebab-places in every street corner (at least in Turku). I’m not sure how long the lowered tax (tax free?) period is but I seem to recall it being something like four or five first years.
Comment by Åboy — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 2:52 pm
Aboy in 126:
So, in effect, my modest suggestions 3 and 4 have already been tried.
What about my suggestions 1 and 2, then?
Comment by observer — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 3:07 pm
@observer, post 127
(even male) beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
And weather like ours builds charachter.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 3:18 pm
Observer – wrt to suggestion #1 is the downside of all weather in Sweden generally winding up in Finland within 24 hours.
Prince of Dorkness – The numbers regarding the boomers retiring have been known for a really long time which is probably why you’ve been hearing about it for a decade or more. Sadly, I suspect this has the ‘boy who cried wolf’ effect on the public at large since the problems are coming. The unfortunate part is that Finland will be first in the age race in the EU so there aren’t any other models to look upon for guidance. The IMF says as much in their 2005 report – http://www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2005/102505.htm Already some things sound current instead of ‘in the future’ like privitization of medical care.
And, perhaps instead of asking why people would want to come here, maybe asking those who leave as to why they are leaving might be somewhat useful.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 4:37 pm
Respect to the “observer”!
Comment by Finnish honesty — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
Observer, let me quote my earlier post. Try to find the minus sign that indicates net loss migration. How on earth you are drawing the conclusions you did???? Don’t tell me you’re believing hfb:
All nationalities 20 333 13 656 6 677
All foreign citizens 11 511 4 186 7 325
Russia (+ former S.U.) 1 939 353 1 586
Estonia 1 699 584 1 115
Sweden 678 376 302
China 433 131 302
Thailand 393 34 359
India 315 112 203
Germany 312 211 101
Sudan 299 0 299
UK 296 268 28
Afghanistan 284 8 276
Iraq 277 20 257
Turkey 249 30 219
USA 247 263 -16
Iran 232 18 214
Yugoslavia 219 26 193
Somalia 196 96 100
Italy 134 73 61
Ukraine 121 15 106
France 120 57 63
Poland 119 85 34
Finland 8 822 9 470 -648
Comment by spendler — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
@hfb,
I’ve been hearing these predictions for a lot longer than a decade, but this time it’s for real, or so it seems.
‘If you build it. they’ll come’? I doubt it.
But sure, I’d be interested to hear from people who decide to leave, whether natives or expats. (Not that I’ve any intention of annoying people with stupid questions.) I’ll certainly be following your blog. Even Finnish Honesty gives the impression of having something to say.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
#120 I didn’t say that. Big bazongas please.
Comment by Hank W. — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
Hank, that lady with the shotgun and pick-up truck, as witnessed by Winter at #23 of women’s salary thread, may be available soon. I bet she has big ones…
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
Finland’s 6600 net immigration is not all that low. You have to remember that this is a country of only 5 million – and with an unemployment close to 7%. Nice thing is that there are more people moving into Finland than out from every country excluding the US.
Some Americans here think, apparently, that anybody coming from Russia or Estonia can’t have high education. Furthermore they like to classify people in general: the Finns that, the French that. Where do these racist ideas come from?
Is it that the American society produces racists? Even people who think they are not racist, in fact are.
If it’s so, is that where we are heading as a more and more multicultural country?
What about other countries with big foreign populations?
Perhaps we are not doomed to become racists after all?
Comment by spendler — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 10:47 pm
I’m leaving on Saturday
My reasons are
1. Many Finns give a very clear impression that foreigners don’t belong in “their” country. This feeling is quite wide spread amongst the ex-pats I’ve known. Incedentially, I’ve only been here for 2 years, but even in that time I’ve known at least 10 foreigners come and go. Why stay in a place where you are not wanted? The classic feeling for an ex-pat here is that it’s a no win situation. If you’re working you shouldn’t be here because you have stolen a job from a Finn. If you are unemployed then you shouldn’t be here because you are a parasite. I would like to ask the Finns here a very simple question: If you were a foreigner, would you stay in Finland?
2. Finnish PR and general boasting creates its own problems. Ex-pats who move to Finland have read all the articles (re-hashed press releases originating from Finland) in their newspapers and they really did expect to encounter something special here. If you constantly brag that Finland has the best health care, education etc etc in the world, the result is very high expectations. In Britain we are not used to this type of braging (you might prefer to call it national pride in Finland). So when ex-pats get here and encounter the reality most feel……….kind of cheated. The rhetoric doesn’t match the reality. One simple example, last year my Son needed to be taken to hospital. The ambulance took ages to arrive. We were charged a fee for the ambulance. Something that is absolutely normal here in Finland
In the UK we tend to run down our own state run NHS. However, all services are free at the point of delivery. I used to play football in the UK, and unfortunately, I’ve been taken to hospital a few times for x-rays, stitches etc etc after getting injured during a game. I have never been asked for any money. The NHS is paid for out of taxes. I really like this system. It makes Britain civilised. But, we don’t brag about it.
Honesty is another issue that Finns brag about. Trust me there is plenty of dishonesty in Finland. To be absolutely honest, that’s one thing I’m really looking forward to when I return to Britain; relatively open and honest communication. Finnish honesty bragging creates problems because it raises the bar. So when an ex-pat encounters dishonesty in Finland they tend to get completely pissed off because you, the Finns, raised the ex-pats expectations.
This non stop Finnish braging, and general running down of anything, or anyone that is foreign also pisses ex-pats off. Finns seem to be obsessed with nationality. The last thing an ex-pat needs when a Finn does talk to them is some immodest bragging about how much better Finland is compared to everywhere else in the world, including your country. Finns, give us a break and chill out!
3. Conformity and a boring monoculture. Finns have high rates of depression and they are more prone to suicide than most other Europeans. The reason is not the climate, or Finland’s northerly location. Instead, its these stifling social norms and strict rules that you all seem intent on living by. Finns don’t seem to like being with other people. Take sport. Finns like doing sport o their own, powerwalking with sticks, rollerblading etc. In England, its social cricket, and park life pub football. Team games in Finland have much lower rates of particpation. Not many young Finns play ice hockey, because there aren’t enough rinks. Only the best get to play. Its more elitist here. There’s also no competitive school sport here. This came as a big surprise.
I honestly believe that immigration into Finland will keep on dropping. The reason is that Finland has only been open for 10 years, since Finland joined the EU. Ex-pats like me, and the others that I have known who have left Finland feeling resentful, will have their own stories to tell when they return home. These stories will put others off from coming to Finland. Bad vibes spread even faster than good vibes.
Two weeks ago there was a really interesting programme on Radio 4 about Polish immigrants to the UK. Their views were fascinating. Many planned to come for only 6 months or so, but once here they felt at home, so they’ve stayed. This is great news for London and the UK. The vast majority of these Poles had set up their own business in the UK, so rather than stealing jobs they’ve created them. Secondly, and more importantly, London becomes an even more exciting and diverse city.
So in conclusion I can’t really see anything changing. The downward trend in immigration to Finland will continue, and probably at an accelerating rate as the bad news and rumours spreads. However, this isn’t all bad. I really do think that most Finns have a deep seated mistrust of foreigners. So most Finns will be happy that they will not have their conformist monoculture threatened by Johnny foreigner
One last thought. I don’t like 6 months of snow, mossies the size of tractors and rotten fruit and veg. However, these “push” factors are miniscule compared to the other factors mentioned above.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 11:11 pm
Well, #135,
1. No we don’t like foreigners. You gave the reason => 3. We don’t like people from the next village even less. We actually don’t “like” people. Its really nothing personal, or especially against foreigners. We just don’t *like* anybody right up front. You’ve not been here *two years* and you whine about acceptance? Finns warm up slowly. And they will show, if not straightforward hostility a disintrest. Why – well, you said it yourself. Foreigners come and go, they can’t be “trusted” as they are like migrant birds, they come and leave. Finnish culture requires maybe 3-4 even 5-10, years to be considered “local”, to be “trusted”, to be “friends” with. And it does not mean your superficial foreign grinning.
2. And you believe the PR? We happen to live here, we know the reality. The health care is underfunded, and you had to pay what – 16 euros for the ambulance? Must have been a devastating blow to your family economy. Unless you weren’t covered by KELA or didn’t get the rebate… yes, if you believe all that shit its your own fault.
3. I quite agree on that. There is a certain requirement of “keeping up appearances”. It is nothing unique to Finland though. And you can break the norms if you dare, or have the guts to do it. Then again you foreigners lack any guts.
Immigration to Finland has been growing exponentially since the 1980′s so if it stays as it is that’d be good. Why do we not get Polish guys starting a business here? tried to start a business yourself, stupid? The economy/taxes/prices just don’t make enough under the line. You can have 10 Polish plumbers come here start a business tomorrow. Why will they not? Nobody can afford to have any work done. And those that could afford…
You forgot #4 – the easy and international language. You know Finnish is like taught in every school in Poland just like French, German and English…
Yeah, most Finns can’t get to know a foreigner. They come here, have weird ways, talk foreign languages, complain about everything, demand this and demand that, disrespect the country and people and then leave. No guts. no perseverence. How can you trust a migratory bird?
See now if the folks back home ake you welcome as you are as whiney a git as here. You probably start it the day you landed and will still continue next year. But please do come back to the blog to tell how wonderful it is where you settle. I’d love to hear.;)
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:08 am
I’ll be back living a real life. So the chances of me posting are close to zero. Sorry if that seems brutal, but its true.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:22 am
Hank – You know bloody well that #2 is a valid point. How many times have you shot down someone, albeit possibly raving and bitter, who has tried to warn a shiny happy soon-to-be new expat that all is not golden in the land of trees, lakes and…yeah?
Mostly, I blame the Finnish spouses who return with their foreign mates with no clue as to how it is for foreigners here as not only is it not talked about even amongst ourselves, but certainly not by the HS except to extol some successful Iranian curry restauranteur in Tampere. The dark side here is dark. I lived in the UK for 6 years without any of the same feelings I’ve had here. The things that make you unhappy are petty and small and you bottle them up because they are personal and small, but then these are the things that make or break your happiness when the big things come along. We are made to have high expectations about this land of so many superlatives….few of which translate to reality.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 7:53 am
Finnish Honesty:
The British NHS has its own very large problems that make Finland’s look meagre.
Plus the English NHS is easily abused by foreigners seeking free treatment travelling thousands of miles for the free work that noone will question in case they are racist.
Comment by Hugh Janus — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 8:06 am
Comment by Finnish honesty  Mon, Jun 12th, 2006 @ 11:11 pm
‘I have never been asked for any money. The NHS is paid for out of taxes. I really like this system. It makes Britain civilised. But, we don’t brag about it.’
The NHS is nothing to brag about, that’s for sure.
Comment by CB — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 8:07 am
FH – “rotten fruit and veg”
Oh, dude, I could write a book on the horrid state of produce. At one point I was tempted to take photos and keep a detailed log, e.g. “liquified potatoes with flies, S-market, date”, but lost heart after so many store managers just didn’t seem to care. I mean, how long does rhubarb have to sit out for it to turn brown and mushy given the oxalic acid content in that shit? I’m guessing a really long time. I know Finland produces some decent fruit and veg so why the strawberries are furry in the grocery is unknown. I will admit when I went home for xmas and walked into the produce section of my mom’s grocery she had to restrain me from either buying all of it or rolling around in the heads of lettuce.
A while back, I remember reading a letter to the editor in the HS from a German guy who complained about the same sad state of produce so maybe it’s just the foreigners who see the brown and green mushy and furry bits.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 8:07 am
That’s why the situation in Finland for foreigners won’t change.
The first step would be for the Finns to accept that THEY have a problem with foreigners who want to live in THEIR country.
Until Finns come out of denial nothing will change
However, as I wrote earlier I really do think that most Finns are very happy with the current situation. Most really do hate foreigners who live here permanently, or at best the Finns are very mistrustful and sceptical of foreigners.
So the same question again for my Finnish friends: If you were a foreigner would you live in Finland?
What concerns me in particular is the attitude of young kids here. Many of them seem to be very conservative in their thinking, fearful of anything or anyone that is different. Young kids in my experience tend to be the ones that can be blatently racist. These attitudes come almost certainly come from their parents and teachers. Finnish adults show their racism in a different way. Its more subtle, and it usually involves trying marginalise and/or ostracise the foreigner- going out of their way to make the foreigner feel uneasy and most definitely not welcome.
3 days to go!
Comment by Finnish honesty — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 8:47 am
One other thought:
Finland’s not a bad place to live, provided that you are Finnish
Comment by Finnish honesty — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 8:49 am
“..maybe it’s just the foreigners who see the brown and green mushy and furry bits..”
I think the case is more likely that those are the only bits some foreigners want to see.
Comment by Åboy — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 8:54 am
@Finnish honesty, (post 135)
1) Yes. Tougher charachters do survive this, but why should you stay here, if you’re not happy?
2) I had no idea ‘our’ PR industry was that successful, I thought people were more sceptical. My honest reaction to the PISA competition results, for example, was that if our schools are the best in the world, God help the rest of the world.
3) I think we could do with rather stricter rules and social norms. Greater conformity. Really. The rules to be followed might need revising, though.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 9:22 am
Come on! This is the 21st Century, even in Finland! No one, foreigners and Finns alike, should have to see furry fruit and veg, especially at Finnish prices.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 9:22 am
Well, I don’t shop for fruit and veg in our family as I’ve been known to mistake Kiwi fruit for potatoes. But if I see pre-baked bread (if that’s the right term) with green mold on it, I just don’t buy it. No complaints, they’d be in one ear and out the other. Either the guy in charge of fresh produce knows his job or he doesn’t; it’s not my job to advise him. So maybe it’s my fault. I should complain, loudly, and report cases to the proper (health?) authorities.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:05 am
#134 above:
“Nice thing is that there are more people moving into Finland than out from every country excluding the US.”
Not true, the largest group of negative net migration is Finns, both in the last year as well as during the longer periods reviewed in the study.
“Some Americans here think, apparently, that anybody coming from Russia or Estonia can’t have high education. Furthermore they like to classify people in general: the Finns that, the French that. Where do these racist ideas come from?”
LOL. If you want to know what Finnish people really think of Russians,snd just sit on a guided tour bus in St. Petersburg arranged by a Finnish tour operator with only Finns on it – with one exception. The snide and elitist remarks are non-stop. Or if you want to get a read on how Finns think of Estonians, just sit on Viru Street in a sidewalk cafe in the summer, and listen to the Finnish comments about Estonians. Almost non-stop insults, excepting when they are ordering another beer. And that haughty arrogant nose up in the air attitude just makes Russians and Estonians love their Finnish visitors.
Comment by observer — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:17 am
Finnish Honesty: You know I don’t recognise the Finland you describe. I have only been a “guest” here since about 98 but maybe there is a cultural difference between the south / capital and further away where I am.
Have you tried to integrate? I think you’ve indicated you a foreigner yourself.
Have you learned Finnish / Swedish ? Or are you a Nokia refugee who comes on an ex pat licence?
There is racism in every country, even the UK which you give much praise to. Maybe Finland’s racism is more honest, a sort of Finnish Honesty (sic) rather than the form you see in England with a PC veneer
Comment by V2 — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:21 am
#138 OK, so how many more times have you seen me shoot down some bright-eyed “I want to move to Finland” with *reason* rather than “ooh, theres rotten veggies” argument? I think I am *notorious* in making people “feel welcome” as if slapping them over the head with a putrid lutfisk. However there is a difference with arguing with reason and whining over rotten tomatoes.
Mostly, I blame the Finnish spouses who return with their foreign mates with no clue as to how it is for foreigners here as not only is it not talked about even amongst ourselves,Now *that* is a valid point. I’d like to take the lutefisk and flog the Finnish spouses with.. love makes blind. Then the result, you know the kind of “Hi, I am moving to Nowheremäki with my Finnish gf…” -cases. We should make a similar poster campaign as the Animal Shelter does… “Don’t take a Summer Man, a man needs care and can live for over 60 years old. It cannot fend itself in the wild…”
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:29 am
#142 The first step would be for the Finns to accept that THEY have a problem with foreigners who want to live in THEIR country.
No, actually its the foreigners that have a problem trying to live in OUR country.
See, the foreigner doesn’t realize its OUR country, not THEIR country. It is a “foreign country” where things and rules are not THEIRS, they happen to be OURS. If I go to a foreign country, I go with THEIR rules, not MINE.
So once you accept OUR rules, you are not “foreigner” any more.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:37 am
V2: “maybe Finland’s racism is more honest”
This is a sick joke!
Who do you think you are kidding?
Both the observer and I have already told you that the Finns express their racism (towards white Europeans) in quite a subtle way. It usually manifests itself in the foreigner being deliberately isolated and ostracised by Finns, especially at work. If you’re Black, Asian or Roma you are more likely to face additional racism from the Finns e.g. not being let into restaurants, being beaten up, spat at and worse off all the Police showing absolutely zero interest in your complaints.
No, Finnish racism towards White Europeans is extremly subtle, but pretty nasty if you are on the receiving end all the same.
Comment by Finnish honesty — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:43 am
Foreign myth #239990: the Finns just keep bragging about their country. If you folks just read Finnish or even Finnish media in English! But no, you read English (or whatever) articles in Washington Post refering to World Economics forum, the PISA study and so on. The funny thing is that you folks write to a blog which weekly finds countless negative aspects in the Finnish system. And where does this Phil fellow get his news from? Yes, HS and YLE.
And what kind of an idiot would believe that there is a nation whose all memebers are totally honest, anyway! Somebody with the mental capapilities of a 6-year old perhaps?
Foreign myth #239991: Just the Finns feel that they have to defend their (national) way of life. What a joke! Just read what our British friend writes above. Not to mention some of our American friends.
Foreign myth #239992: The Finns are depressed mental cases who don’t care of each other. Actually Finns mentally very healthy compared to most other European countries. in Finland the percetage of people with health problems is 9 according to this study
http://tinyurl.co.uk/a269
In Great Britain the figure is 32%.
But the Finns don’t show concern when their compatriots have problems, that must at least be true. Nope. Amazingly enough, Finns show concern towards mentally ill people more or at least as much as any other nation within the EU. In Great Britain, for example, 39% of mentally ill felt that they received no or little concern while in Finland the figure was 7%.
Foreign myth #239993: All Finns are racists. Hmmm … when people in different EU countries were asked if they find the presence of foreign people disturbing 8% of the Finns answered yes. That’s pretty high figure, I must admit, but still it’s the second lowest within the EU15. In UK the figure was twice as high. See:
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb53/eb53_en.pdf
Now, does the fact that Finland does very well in surprisingly many surveys or by surprisingly many standards mean that we are a perfect country? Sure. That’s what we Finns all think. (That was sarcasm, by the way.) But it’s indeed true that Finns are proud of their country – congratulations, you fellows got something right! – although not as proud as the Irish, the Greeks or the the Potuguese (is that a word?). Then comes the Finns and the Britts (once again among the EU15 nations from the same document as above). So the small, perpherical nations seem to feel the need to be proud of their country … except for UK, whose citizens feel proud perhaps because their health services are run so well
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:47 am
Thanks for your honest point of view Hank. What you’ve written sums it up. But, would you fancy it?
Personally, that’s why I think foreigners like London. It does not BELONG to anyone. Instead, you are free to be whoever you want to be. There is no social pressure put on immigrants to follow British social norms, and in my opinion long may this continue, because it makes for a more diverse, and therefore more interesting society
Comment by Finnish honesty — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 10:49 am
Not true, the largest group of negative net migration is Finns, both in the last year as well as during the longer periods reviewed in the study.
No, no, your point was that the educated foreigners are emmigrating in larger numbers than immigrating. The Finns moving out has nothing to do with the argument. That said, it’s perfectly possible that some brain-drain is going on (although the author of the study wrote that it can’t be known for sure). All peripehrical countries tend to have this trend, Finland is no exception. Lucky for us we have a “periphery” of “our own” nowadays.
LOL. If you want to know what Finnish people really think …
I listen to you. Sure.
I think that you’ve made some good points, but please don’t generalize your personal frustration to concern a whole nation. That’s the kind of “racism” you pretend to hate (I presume). And I don’t doubt that you may have heard a comment or two like you described, there are, big surprise, stupid people in Finland … providing you understand Finnish. Do you?
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 11:13 am
Hank
Classic example was when, right after 9/11, the US was covered coast to coast in Old Glory which honestly made me uncomfortable as I’m no patriot of any nation, not even the ones I’ve a right to be, but Mr. J made a comment about how strange it was given that nobody ever flies the Finnish flag in Finland. …. Yeah… I’ve stopped counting the number of flag days in Finland. 
Especially since nobody ever seems to remember what most of them mean. 
All of us have blind spots about the places we are raised in as there are so many things that are just second nature to us, but the difference here in a US-FIN couple is that the US advertises both the good and the bad and, through TV, the completely fictional. There is little mystery to be had on the overall picture in spite of various small things we may not consider to be of importance to our spouse. I never gave a second thought that Mr. J would not be welcome and employable in the US and I was not once disappointed. On the flip side, I was given the impression that the same would be true here….and you know how long it took me to find a job and how hard I’ve tried to fit in, learn the language, etc. but there’s a point where you give up trying desperately to find the silver lining in everything and being afraid to be critical of things for fear of rebuke and retribution. I’m happy for the experience, but I just wish I had known then what I know now.
One thing Mr. J mentioned, that I found very interesting and that you might find equally so since you have lived outside of Finland for a time, was that he says he doesn’t feel like he fits in here anymore. I haven’t quite pressed him to elaborate, but seeing your own country through a strangers eyes, just as I saw my own through his, can be an experience that changes your world view, for better and for worse.
Price of Dorkness – The kiwi fruit is furry…uh, oh, wait.
Well, as I said, some of the things are small and petty, but when I stick my hand into a potato bin only to find liquified potato and flies, the squick factor is high and when the store just shrugs and says, well, maybe make mashed potatoes with them…. Like I said, I’m quite certain Finland has fine produce, but it doesn’t seem to show up at the local groceries. By comparison, had I gone to a store manager where I used to shop back home and mentioned rotten potatoes to the point of liquefaction, there probably would have been a lot of unecessary ass kissing and fuss, but those potatoes would be gone in record time. I suppose the difference is that we won’t pay top price for furry and rotten produce, but I do see people in Finland buying produce that should have been in the bargain bin or the compost heap a week prior to the sale. It’s like the store is saying, you’ll buy this slop, you’ll pay top euro and you’ll thank us for it instead of thinking that you have a choice and treating you like customers instead of cattle. If consumers raised hell for all the furry and rotten produce in the grocery, I’d bet there’d be a change, yes. Pity that Lidl doesn’t carry produce.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 11:15 am
Ummm… Lidl does carry produce.
I chucked a ‘soft’ tomato out the window in April… its still intact and red there on the hillside. I think Lidl “chemistry” in action…
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 11:32 am
#154 @Finnish Honesty – The thing is you lack a grasp of reality.
London is a melting pot of 7 million or so… *one city*.
Finland is a *large* and *sparsely populated* country. Finland has a population of 5 million. We have a very rare language, a very rare culture and we have fought and strived to keep from being overrun by “foreigners”; ie our superpower neighbours. We have had immigration, many of the “big names” in culture and industry are “foreigners” – we have had different religions here, total religious tolerance for Jews and Moslems in 1922… You can have a distinct culture/language/identity like the ‘tatars’ have while being a “Finn”.
We don’t have the luxury of letting hordes of foreign people come here and make Finland a mirror-image of their own society at home. Where will the Finnish culture and language go in a hundred years? Should we flush down the drain 6000 years of history just because some arse-gilt foireigner feels bad about us flying our flag. I don’t think so.
The reality of life here in Finland, with its shortcomings, is the “reality of life”. Do I “fancy it”? Not necessarily. Not the whole parts of it. But I don’t need some arse-gilt foreigner come tell me how things are. You should have been here in the 1970′s or 1980′s. And *then* complain about the rotten tomatoes. One should be glad even getting anything else than potatoes and carrots in February!!!
Finland has been improving in leaps and bounds in my lifetime in a manner I could not imagine. Compared to 1988 in 1998 Helsinki was *cosmopolitan*. But you want it to be like London immediately? You are comparing two totally different things.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 11:46 am
#156 hfb, you remember I told you of my sister… 20 years as an expat finn, tries to resettle, she went back. Though she was complaining of the ‘all these foreigners’
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 11:49 am
Hank – Hmm…I’ve only been in one Lidl since they haven’t yet opened the one downtown. Dunno about the ‘chemistry’ but most produce from large groceries, like bread, have preservatives or have been irradiated to lengthen shelf life. This is why you wash produce before consuming it.
“we have had different religions here, total religious tolerance for Jews and Moslems in 1922.”
I never can tell when you’re joking or not Hank.
Does this not include the all expenses paid trip to Auchwitz that the Jews got in WWII?
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 11:55 am
“the small, perpherical [sic] nations seem to feel the need to be proud of their country” (spendler, post 153)
“It [London] does not BELONG to anyone.” (Finnish Honesty, post 154)
Racist, nationalist stereotyping by an ignorant pillock (me):
Finland is a small, peripheral nation, with a defensive underdog/minority attitude to outsiders. That sort of thing is necessary and useful, up to a point, but not so nice when you are objectively a majority. (This is easier to see and criticize in others; I remember some Finn commenting on the same thing about the Slovaks and their hostility to their minorities.)
London is the capital of not just England but all of the UK and used to be the capital of a major part of the world. The price (or a benefit?) of empire is that English nationalism does not appear to exist; even the English (St.George’s cross) flag is problematic for some reason. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have all some form of autonomy, England does not, and it doesn’t seem to bother the English. A very different place, a very different history.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
@hfb (post 160),
the deported Jews were foreign nationals (German, Austrian and Latvian refugees plus some Jews among Soviet POWs).
Finnish Jews were in the odd position of being the Waffenbruders of the Third Reich. Cause for comment among Israeli independence war vets, IIRC. (Forty-odd Finnish Jews went to fight in Palestine in 1948-49; a fairly good showing when you think there was just a couple of thousand of them.)
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:14 pm
I never can tell when you’re joking or not Hank.
Does this not include the all expenses paid trip to Auchwitz that the Jews got in WWII?
What on earth are you talking about again? Are you saying that Finland sent its Jews to concentration camps or what?
Oh well, when have facts have had anything to do with anything as long as you ‘ve got the change to bash Finland?
And this comes from a person who can’t stand almost no critcism against the USA! Yeah, we know that there has been a lot less racism there than in Finland …
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
160. *Religious* tolerance, not *political* tolerance. Is a communist jew a jew or a communist? I don’t really know if you are joking, or do you lack history education
hfb – next time you go past the Synagogue, or the Jewish Cemetery go in. In the Synagogue is 1939-1945 ProPatria plaque and in the cemetary one of the only War Veteran memorials in a jewish cemetary outside Israel.
Oh, and while strolling in Hietaniemi, there is also a war memorial in the Moslem cemetary as well one for the Roma on the ‘old side’.
BTW
Q: How many Jews on the East Front were awarded an Iron Cross?
A: Three, in Finland, two male doctors and a nurse serving in the Finnish Army.
History is sometimes quite *weird*…
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:23 pm
Like I said, I’m quite certain Finland has fine produce, but it doesn’t seem to show up at the local groceries.
Try one of these: S-market Arabia, S-market Vallila, Alepa Helsinginkatu, Alepa Sturenkatu, Alepa Mäkelänkatu, Valintatalo Sturenkatu, Valintatalo Mäkelänkatu. I’ve bought my groceries in these stores for the last 5-6 years, never had problems to the point of liquified potatoes. I see bad fruit or vegetables from time to time but usually it’s just one single overripe tomato that is easily skipped over, not a whole box of rotten tomatoes.
Now, let’s make a couple of things clear: Yes, I believe the liquid potato incident happened as you described it. I also think the store manager’s response was not appropriate yet typical of Finnish mentality. The customers really are supposed to take whatever they’re given and be grateful for it. However, you make it sound like all we have here is rotten bad produce. This is simply not true.
Of course, what am I but yet another finn living in denial.
Comment by mh — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:25 pm
hfb:
Finland gave only about 10 Jews to the Nazis during WWII. Some of them were criminals and therefore considered “expendable”, but there were a couple of small children too. There has been a lot of soul-searching, a few books, and even a play written about the subject during the past few years.
Had all Finnish Jews been exterminated, I would not be here. My grandmother was born Jewish and she worked as a Red Cross nurse in a Finnish hospital during the war. Her family also lived and worked in Finland, completely in the open. How wold have that been possible if Finland had allowed all of its Jewish population to be exterminated?
Comment by Anzi — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:27 pm
I don’t know if “Finns don’t complain” is because they know what the “service attitude” is; or is the Finnish “service attitude” due to nobody complaining…
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:27 pm
152: “Finnish Honesty”
V2: “maybe Finland’s racism is more honestâ€Â
This is a sick joke!
Who do you think you are kidding?
– Not at all. In England, for example, you will either get outright racism “f… the pa…s and send them home”, the psuedo racist “I’m not racist but those X they are Y” or the politically correct veneer of tolerance (if the person is in fact not totally “ok” with immigrants)”
Both the observer and I have already told you that the Finns express their racism “(towards white Europeans) in quite a subtle way. It usually manifests itself in the foreigner being deliberately isolated and ostracised by Finns, especially at work. If ”
You see I’ve NEVER even suspected that and NEVER noticed a problem. Now I don’t work for Nokia or any “foreigner friendly” company, I don’t try and join all the local expat clubs and I don’t try and make myself different by not learning the local language. About the only thing I go against is bad timekeeping and crap customer services
Two bad partners doesn’t mean the next is a wife beater.
There is racism. Every one is racist to a degree. Is it racist to say I wouldn’t want to sleep with a west Indian woman ? I’ve never tried it and don’t want to. That is a choice but to many that is a racist preconception. I have taken no opinion on whether they should be sent back or allowed to stay. It makes no odds to me.
“you’re Black, Asian or Roma you are more likely to face additional racism from the Finns e.g. not being let into restaurants, being beaten up, spat at and worse off all the Police showing absolutely zero interest in your complaints.”
Maybe “differently” appearing folk can be a surprise. I used to live in a VERY multi cultural area in the UK and yet in a small town in the north it was a shock to see a black person. As in “why is that black person getting upset in the post office shouting in English”. Turns out he wanted some service and they didn’t understand his brand of English but after some help things were resolved.
Am I racist to then be shocked at seeing a black person?
Many Finns are / were unhappy at immigrants being “dropped” in their community (Somalis etc) and a number of them did not/don’t seek to integrate and just claim welfare (a complaint used against many Romas and Lapps by the way). Finland has its own cadre of domestic bums as well.
Vietnamese people also got some stick but they HAVE in my direct experience and with evidence from others, DONE THEIR DAMDEST to integrate (OK not in unions and that can cause friction) and they work like stink on the whole. In fact I do some consulting work for a nearby multi location corporation and their Vietnamese workers consistently put more effort in (on measurable items like assembly) that their local Finns. They are not taking pauses for this and that or fecking about. It caused some problems at the start but they get left alone (some of the older ones have language problems) but the management is progressive (hey, they hire Swedish speakers too !) and understands they work hard. Heck they even have their own company which does some assembly outside of work time (one way around the EU working time directive I guess!)
In fact you might get MORE “racist” comments against Swedish speakers in parts of eastern Finland and Tampere.
Racism and other problems happen. White Finn beats white Finn at a nightclub: a fight. White Finn beats black Somali at a nightclub: racist incident. Sadly this does not auto compute every time.
You are so glad that you are leaving Finland ? Good… your choice. So why keep coming here and getting aerated about it? Calm down dear, it is only a racist, msyognist, small country (according to you).
Comment by V2 — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:37 pm
154: London is not the same as the rest of England. And look at the state England has become with its illegal Official immigrants and undocumented.. Many “legal immigrants” both 1st and 2nd generation are quite pissed off baout being labelled in the same cateogry though.
Comment by V2 — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:39 pm
@Hank W, post 167,
IIRC they tried to award Leo Skurnik one, but he told them where they could shove it. He’d done his duty as a doctor (Hippocratic oath) and an officer by saving a wounded SS-man under fire when the German medics panicked and refused to go get their man. But being more than correct towards the Germans would have been above and beyod duty.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:46 pm
I find that it is quite easy to live in a city like London and live under the illusion that you are immersed in the culture and accepted. It is easy to spend your whole life there without having any British acquaintances or having very little to do with British culture. You don’t even necessarily have to learn English to make a life for yourself there.
This is somewhat impossible in a sparsely populated country like Finland where you have to at least try to integrate up to a certain level.
I am friends with quite a few immigrants who are living a very happy and satisfying life in Finland and what they have in common is that they’ve worked to integrate. They’ve studied the language, made Finnish friends, etc. All this while still keeping very firm connections to their native countries and cultures.
If you come to Finland thinking that you can make a life for yourself here while floating on some separate plane of existance with few or no Finnish contacts, expecting everyone to adapt to YOU and not vice versa, you will crash and burn.
Comment by Anzi — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:48 pm
Spendler – go look at the monument on obervatory hill for the Jews who were sent to the camps.
Prince of Dorkness – I’m not sure if it’s reassuring in the context of the conversation that only foreigner jews were deported.
Hank – Life, not just history, is strange.
mh – For even a German tourist to write to HS about it…and given that all the groceries near my house regularly have this sort of problem, I just don’t think it’s unusual. As I said, maybe it’s just that Finns don’t notice it as it’s just the norm, but I just can’t bring myself to buy it.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:54 pm
Anzi, uskaltaisinko kysyä neuvoa? Olemme menossa Pariisiin kesäkuun lopulla …. Äh, laitetaan englanniksi ettei näytä salmyhkäiseltä …. My Family will be taking a trip to Paris this month. I’ve been trying to find a good hotel, “good” meaning not overpriced but still close to “down-town” Seine, you know, Louvre etc. Although I’ve been to Paris a few times, it now has turned out that I don’t really know the “districts”; where is those areas where the tourist don’t flock but still are “close” … if there are such areas. The last time I, sort of, messed up and we ended into place that seemed to be collapsing (yeah, I know that’s “Paris” but still I kind of hoped to have a warm shower).
A few facts, by the way:
The government of Finland (meaning in this case the president – and Mannerheim, too) forbade all exportations of Jewish refugees as soon as they learned about them.
Many Jewish refugees were deported to work camps.
The Finnish Jews had nothing to do with all this.
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
well said
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:00 pm
hfb you make too much generalizations and you also lack knowledge in history.
please try not to sound bigoted and bitter even when your life in finland isn’t going as well as you thought it would
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:04 pm
@hfb
Yeah, but there was no ethnic/religious/racial discrimination. All foreign problem individuals were eligible for a one-way ticket, and most of them were not Jews. All nation states reserve the right to heave foreigners overboard if the lifeboat is full.
But the response you got seems a bit excessive. I’m wondering if I should start nit-picking every statement about US history Finns post on these threads. (I’m a history nerd with no life.)
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
Spendler – go look at the monument on obervatory hill for the Jews who were sent to the camps.
And? Are you saying that we should not show respect for those who were deported? Propably you don’t once again know what you are talking about, so I excuse you
but Finland has never ever imprisoned its citizens on ethnic or racial grounds (which is more than many European and one North American country can boast about).
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:16 pm
Prince of Dorkness …Yeah, sorry I mentioned the chink in the armor as I was only ribbing Hank. They were deported because they were Jewish though which is religious, even if it was done for the Nazi’s. It’s likely/possible that more/all would have been deported had the timing been a little earlier but….luckily not.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
That’s it spendler, you’re getting nit-picked:
Finland has not jailed Finnish citizens for belonging to ethnic groups but:
1) the Russian population of East Carelia was herded into prison camps in 1941, basically so it would be easier to ship them to Russia when the war was won. That was ethnic cleansing in the making. The conditions in the camps were crappy and thousands died. Luckily for us, The Soviets could give a sh*t about what happened to their people.
2) the White Army in 1918 was kind of trigger happy, and managed to account for a couple of thousand ‘Russians’ (two to four thousand is the best guesstimate available), some of whom at least were Finnish citizens. Many were not any kind of Russians. The language test they used in Viipuri was ‘count to three in Finnish’ and failure to pronounce the correct front vowel in ‘yksi’ got you shot. The Italian consul was livid about the two Italian victims.
That’s off the top of my head. More anon.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:36 pm
Yeah, sorry I mentioned the chink in the armor as I was only ribbing Hank. They were deported because they were Jewish though which is religious, even if it was done for the Nazi’s. It’s likely/possible that more/all would have been deported had the timing been a little earlier but….luckily not.
And on what is this wisdom based, for heaven’s sake? Finland was a Nordic democratic country – get it? – without almost no support for Nazism or racist ideologies in general – get it – and with a government which repeatedly told Nazis that Finland has no Jewish problem – get it? What else is there to the story? Oh, I see, the Finns still just waited for the opportunity to slaughter all Jews. After all, all Finns are racists and have always been, right?
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:37 pm
# 167 yes, I said “awarded” I didn’t say anyone “accepted”.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:49 pm
OK, dork
let’s change the subject, if you want. What you write is mostly true – “mostly” meaning that the East-Karelian Russians were put into camps by the army, not government, and they were put there because the army didn’t want to have enemies running around in an occupied area. They were supposed to be deported to inner Finland later, and quite many were, but then the Russians decided to win the war. The circumstances in the camps were pretty horrible, no excuses there, something like 20% (if I remeber correctly) of the inmates died because of – you know – malnutrion and cramped dwellings resulting to diseases spreading out during the winter of 42 (on the other hand the situation was so bad that summer that many civilian Finns died too in different institutions like hospitals of the same reasons).
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 1:59 pm
178. Finland was in a war. Foreign refugees were not *deported* to labour camps. They were put on internment camps to figure out who is who as in any country. Russians in East Carelia – well, how about the Japanese in the USA? You can’t have random foreigners run around the country in a war. What comes to labour there was a common “työvelvollisuus” – “obligation to work”. if you didn’t have a job you were assigned one. My father washauling logs with a horse in East karelia living in a “labour camp” at age 16. So what makes an able-bodied foreigner in an internment camp with somehow excused from the common “work obligation”???
Everyone remembers some 8 poor bastards just because they were jews, how about the some 140 jewish refugees that were *not* deported? There was more handing over of foreign people toGermany done than just the 8 foreign jews, really a small detail in the whole 1940′s wartime population movement. And then the “repatriations” to the USSR, nobody remembers the 10 Finnish and German citizens handed over to the “Allied Control Commission” to be flown over to Moscow without any crimes committed in Finland. Nobody remembers the 56.000 Ingrians handed over to the USSR to be sent to Kazakhstan plains nor the other “Soviet Citizens” like Estonians… One should talk about the whole situation and not focus on one detail.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
Spendler – Had the Germans wanted to press the issue, Finland, like most every other country, including Denmark and Norway, would have loaded up the trains. They wanted Russia more than they wanted Finland at the time as had they won Russia the world would not be the same today.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:15 pm
re post 181 by spendler
Memo to self: Finnish Army has no relation to Finnish government (like one having a commander in chief who’s the president of the other). Must be, or spendler wouldn’t say so.
I was responding to your relentless nitpicking positivity regarding Finland and negativity regarding the US. But the subject was not changed in the sense that most of the prison camp deaths were a result of neglect. The people in the camps did not matter to anyone outside who could do something. They were just Russians. And interning enemy aliens is quite common in war, but 1) you’re supposed to look after them and 2) it was just the ethnic Russians who got interned, the ethnic Carelians (and other Finno-Ugrics) were left mostly alone.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:21 pm
hfb they did press the issue and denmark and norway were under german occupation finland wasn’t
Comment by op — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
There had been over 500 jewish refugees from Germany into Finland up until 1941. Most of these had been able to move forward to Sweden and USA. Getting to Sweden was not anything that could not have been accomplished if the Germans would have really pressed the issue.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:23 pm
Hohhoijaa, Denmark never “loaded up the trains”. Have you ever read somthing about the things you like to comment?
As for the rest of the “counterfactual history”, yes, this or that could have happened … the USA voters could have elected KKK to run the country, or Roosevelt could have turned into a real Nazi instead of just playing with the idea. The Finns could have gone into a Jew-killing mode, why not?
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:31 pm
I was responding to your relentless nitpicking positivity regarding Finland and negativity regarding the US.
Please, show an example!
As for the rest of your post, I agree, in a civilised, democratic country things like should not happen. Period. I was just telling about the circumstances. But let’s repeat: no excuses there. OK, one more time: no excuses there.
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
@Hank, post 182
yes, the refugees were put in work camps, which was nothing exceptional or to our discredit. (Although I can understand that a Central European white collar type made to do hard manual labour out in the woods under a Finnish NCO is liable to complain a bit.)
@hfb, post 183
Norway and Denmark did not load up the trains. They were occupied, the Germans were in charge. Most Danish and about half the Norwegian Jews got to Sweden, thanks to their Gentile fellow citizens.The exceptional thing about Finland and Bulgaria (another German ally that saved its own, if not foreign, Jews) is that they remained sovereign and independent and were able to make their own decisions.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:43 pm
Prince (perhaps you didn’t like it when I called you “dork”), the condititions at the work camps was “discrediting”, at least according to those who were interviewd by Elina Sana (was it “Suomi” earlier or what?). Norway did “load up trains” as you would have realised if you had pondered for a bit longer the figures you yourself gave.
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
@190,
in an occupied country the occupying power calls the shots.
Quisling ^= Norway.
And if you think an occupied Finland wouldn’t have had anything like Quisling, think again.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
And if you think an occupied Finland wouldn’t have had anything like Quisling, think again.
Why would I think something like that?
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
Vihtori Kosola was alredy dead in 1936. I don’t think Annala would have made a too convincing Quisling for Finland. Heill’ Hitler, meill’ Kosola, as the local pisstake was at the time. (they’ve H, we’ve K)
BTW Kekkonen as the minister of interior was doing all kinds of – even skirting unconstitutional – “Kekkonen tricks” already in 1938 to get IKL banned. The so-called “shirt laws” banning political uniforms date from that era. IKL was banned 4 days after the armistice with USSR – way before they even made a list of “things to change”, it was just tolerated before that. Finnish fascist movement was basically kicked in the nuts already in 1932 and couldn’t rise, it tied to intermingle into the Conservatives but Paasikivi smoked them out from Kokoomus already before the war.
Oh, and before anyone gets on a spiritual orgasm level of the existance of a Finnish fascist party – IKL was modelled after Sir Oswald Moseley’s British Union of Fascists. So blame foreign influence from the UKÂÂ
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
Hank: even today Suomen Sisu quote Sir Oswald Mosley at their website:
http://www.suomensisu.org/content/view/81/95/lang,fi/
Other Sir Oswald quotes:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/o/oswald_mosley.html
Sir Oswald trivia: his second son Max is serving his fourth term as FIA president:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
Excuse me, Max is the second son from Sir Oswald’s second marriage. For the second time Sir Oswald was married to Diana Guinness, née Mitford, in the drawing room of Goebbels in Berlin. From his first marriage to Cimmie Curzon (the daughter of Lord Curzon, a former viceroy of India) Sir Oswald had three children. Cimmie died in 1933 and Sir Oswald remarried in 1936 (Max was born four years later).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 4:42 pm
As Suomen Sisu only seem to have the Sir Oswald Mosley quote in Finnish translation, here’s the original quote from oswaldmosley.com (from The Doctrine of Higher Forms):
http://www.oswaldmosley.com/policies/higherforms.html
“We must restore harmony with life, and recognise the purpose in life. Man has released the forces of nature just as he has become separated from nature; this is a mortal danger, and is reflected in the neurosis of the age.”
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 5:04 pm
Spendler (#172):
Difficult question since Paris is fairly full of hotels and quality varies highly. I’m personally back in Finland so I can’t offer much assistance but will try.
If you want a hotel in an area fairly close to the main monuments but where prices are not too over the top, try the Bastille-Marais districts. They’re full of things to do, without being too busy or noisy. If you speak franch, check out this website. http://www.eng.cityvox.fr/hotels_paris/Hotels
I used it to find a pretty nice and not too overpriced hotel for my boyfriend’s parents (Best Western Marais Bastille).
Hope this helped!
Comment by Anzi — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 5:35 pm
Anzi, thanks for the link. For some reason I had not found that one. My wife has been looking through the site. After all, it’s she who will make the decision – particualarly after the previous disaster …
Comment by spendler — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 9:12 pm
Paris arrondisements go round in a circle. You can have one bloc in the “wrong” address and you have half the price than in the “”right” arrondisemant. Then again you can be on the “right street” and as long as you can fake not disclosing the arrondisement…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissements_of_Paris
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jun 13th, 2006 @ 11:26 pm
200
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 12:04 am
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 12:44 am
A number of postings above talked about the moral questions facing Finland in the 1940′s.
Elina Sana, a Finnish researcher, opened up this debate first in 1978, when she first reported on the 8 Jews deported in her first book.
Here is a review of her second book on the subject of deportations and which was published in 2004:
http://dbgw.finlit.fi/fili/bff/104/marttila.html
Comment by observer — Wed, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 11:07 am
@202,
Marttila says there was insufficient documentary evidence to convict Anthoni.I thought this was a fairly obvious case of the bureaucracy covering up for one of their own by making files disappear.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 11:30 am
Here some background on the internment camps in Karelia for Russian civilians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Finland
Comment by observer — Wed, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 12:32 pm
I thought this was a fairly obvious case of the bureaucracy covering up for one of their own by making files disappear.
I thought Anthoni was convicted – ridiculously leniently but still. Anyway, the files “disappearing” after a lost war is the “normal” procedure and it’s not done to save a single man’s neck.
Comment by spendler — Wed, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 12:49 pm
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20031118IE7
Max Jacobson’s article about the POWs and deportees. Links to other articles at the end. Jacobson is of Jewish origin, by the way.
Comment by spendler — Wed, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 1:48 pm
This topic got too controversial for the Finns around post 155.
Too many serious issues expressed about Finland from a foreigners perspective. Time for a digression
Finns don’t want foreigners in Finland. They don’t want to change. “Why should we!”
That’s the answer for the Finns.
Adios!
But, just be open and honest about it
Comment by Finnish honesty — Thu, Jun 15th, 2006 @ 12:38 am
Yes, yes, begone now please.
Comment by m — Thu, Jun 15th, 2006 @ 3:53 pm
Hmmm…Maybe we should have presented FH with a passport cover and couple of coins inserted there with the british passport for the nice flapping sound + a MP3 from the punk band ‘Klamydia’…I guess the man is entitled to celebrate his TJ0.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Thu, Jun 15th, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
Consider the consequences of your idealism.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
Comment by Hege — Thu, Jun 15th, 2006 @ 9:55 pm
3am – a group of young gypsies stopped their car by the apartment building I live in and they started to honk the cars horn several times over for about two minutes. After establishing contact with some other gypsies they started to discuss LOUDLY. They are in total disregard of other people.
Tell me one reason why I shouldn’t be rude and without a hint of racism, just out of pure hatred towards inviduals with a great lack of respect of the others. Why many of these hated inviduals happens to be gypsies?
Comment by S.Y — Fri, Jun 16th, 2006 @ 3:14 am
@Antti,
why Klamydia? Why not ‘Armottomat’ and ‘Armottomat 2′?
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Jun 16th, 2006 @ 11:22 am
@ 209 They don’t want to change. “Why should we!â€Â
You should change if you move here. “Why should I? My arse is gilt!”
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Jun 16th, 2006 @ 12:05 pm
#214
Well, “Mä lähden himaan” by Klamydia was the official muzak for the “honorable discharge” to the reserve at my time. ‘Armottomat’ might be a great album “from Finland to remember her by” though.
This guy really sounds, that some passport flapping and telling “Hajoooo” to returning Nokia engineers at the Oulu airport might do some good…
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Fri, Jun 16th, 2006 @ 12:39 pm
Which Nokia engineers, the ones with brains, the ones with Indian or Bangladeshi passports?
Comment by Finnish honesty — Fri, Jun 16th, 2006 @ 9:59 pm
Finnish dishonesty:
Which Nokia engineers, the ones with brains, the ones with Indian or Bangladeshi passports?
If they had such big brains on them, I wonder why’d they come to this terrible hellhole.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 12:12 am
hfb:
Spendler – Had the Germans wanted to press the issue, Finland, like most every other country, including Denmark and Norway, would have loaded up the trains.
“If” is a stupid word in history, but I sincerely believe that they would have had to press the issue with Stukas and Panzers and be met with equally stubborn resistance as the Russians were. The Germans did, quite frequently, bring up the issue. The answer was always that Finland does not have a “Jew problem” that needs “solving”. It wouldn’t have been quite fitting to gather the Finnish Jewish community, many of whom were distinguished soldiers, in cattle trains bound for Auschwitz (even though the true nature of these camps was not even widely known at the time). We might have our faults but we do take care of our own. I agree that the deportation of foreign Jewish refugees is a very dark spot on the country’s history.
Anyway, you’re beginning to sound more and more like Finnish Dishonesty. This is a worrisome trend, as I’ve become to appreciate you as a person with a solid head on your shoulders. Even though Phil likes to bitch and whine about mostly everything, he seems to like it here more than you. Could it be because he never expected as much? This is why I have a problem with the kind of extreme flattery that goes on in the foreign press, like with the Washington Post love letters to Finland. Some people might take this propaganda at face value and be sourly disappointed.
Regarding your hubby feeling that he does not fit in here anymore: I can understand that, for despite being born and raised in Finland (save a few months in France and a couple in Espoo), I have spent most of my life not fitting in. Having experienced the horrors of Kekkoslovakia, contemporary Finland feels like a paradise. Only in fairly recent years has this started to feel like home.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 12:50 am
Dear Finns,
Your posts here give the outside world an opportunity to learn about the racism and xenophobia that exists at every level within Finnish society. As someone who has lived here for 2 years, and has been pretty disgusted with your sick society your posts are very useful
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 10:02 am
Well, one friend of mine was involved in a NMR imaging project some years ago and he is one of the very few people with an explicit piece of evidence for having brains (in a form of a picture). For the rest of us, it is more or less implicit. Later he turned into Nokia engineer. Of course, one cannot be sure, what heavy boozing in the Nokia summerparties and constant gin&tonicing on business trips does to his encephalos over the years.
But anyway, you can do the passport flapping equally well for the people with brain or no brain.
–
“Having experienced the horrors of Kekkoslovakia…”
Exactly, you people whining have seen nothing. OK, It was great to be kid in Kekkoslovakia driving JoPo-cycle and listening to the Hurriganes, but heck. You weren’t allowed to eavesdrop on the police radio and hey, didn’t they train the mailmen at some time to spot illegal satellite dishes, like they do now in Iran. At that time the direct broadcasting TV-satellites were just in testing phase and some big whig at the General Direction of the Posts and Telegraphs (sic!) decided the transmissions were not for the public consumption yet. If I recall, there was also some social democratic fretting over, what kind scheisse they are going to send over the cable and satellite to corrupt our children. This is a bloody anarchy now, compared to those days.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 10:15 am
Kekkoslovakian memories… What was it that Tuomas Nevanlinna wrote, ‘if there’s still a beauty parlour called Mylordinna and more security guards than blacks in Helsinki, imagine what it was like back in the old days’.
And Finnish Honesty, remeber, we’re holding your Finnish in-laws hostage. One peep out of you from now on, and we’ll release them and give them tickets to the UK.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
Multiracial US is rotten beyond belief…
“See the Minutemen confront the immigration invasion on our southern border”
http://www.yggdrasilfilms.com/
Comment by Hege — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 2:40 pm
Multiracial US is rotten beyond belief…
Oh fuck, Der Volksstürmführer is back…
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 3:35 pm
Oh man, I wish we had real freedom of speech like the Americans do…
http://www.filecabi.net/video/killerwhitey.html
KILL DA WHITE MAN!
Comment by Hege — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 4:45 pm
Oh man, I wish we had real freedom of speech like the Americans do…
The fact that the KKK freely uses their 1st amendment rights in similar fashion should make you a little happier.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Jun 17th, 2006 @ 8:56 pm
What did you think about the Minute men video?
Comment by Hege — Sun, Jun 18th, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
What did you think about the Minute men video?
I was really upset with the dirty Mexicans taking a dump in the national park. Who do they think they are, Finns?
But rest easy, eventually they’ll be riding snowscooters in the Yosemite park just like good red-blooded Anglos!
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jun 18th, 2006 @ 11:56 pm
We finns respect hard labor. I am 25 and i have never seen gibsies work. So if u wanna live in our country go and get a job, pay taxs and play by the rools. If you cheat in everything you do in life and treat other people with no respect you will never get any respect yourself
and also you will keep getting sutch a treatment that you deserve!
Comment by finns motto: dont be LACY — Thu, Jul 27th, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
Wierd how all the foreigners in Finland clamps down on Finland, trying to change it because it doesnt fir their twisted messed up multikulti picture. Defending romanis? First of all, the romains are indo europeans, they were deported to a remote place in Finland by the swedish King Vasa, (when Finland and Sweden was the same nation) because they were a pain in the ass for the swedes…
Listen, we have plenty of finns in Sweden, they work, they adapt, well its not hard for finns to adapt because they are closely related to us but they do… And that is how it should be!
gypsies dont adapt! multikulti hippi zionists dont adapt…
Comment by The Swede — Mon, Nov 13th, 2006 @ 2:58 pm
And Oh! almost forgot!
Bashing Finland for WW2 atrocities? Hmm the bolshevic jews of Mother Russia attacked Finland in 1939, Finland fought them with honor to a stalemate and won its independence.
Finland also saved jews from certain death by not deporting them.
And now you jews (I know you are by the way your multikulti brains work) are accusing finns? WTF is wrong with you people? Do you have any shame at all? If I would encounter lying sacks of shit like the lots of you, I would proudly kick your ass! you are SCUM!
Comment by The Swede — Mon, Nov 13th, 2006 @ 3:13 pm
Just visit my site please, its my first one: http://robstersblog.blogspirit.com/ robster
Comment by OnlyPhar — Fri, Oct 19th, 2007 @ 7:38 pm