hello, good morning.

I’m always annoyed at the muteness of Finns and the lack of good mornings and hellos and thank yous after I return from some trip to the States, but the thing is that your “typical Finn” and “typical American” are just plain different people used to different things.

A couple of years ago I was on an academic summer course in Jyväskylä with lots of international participants (and teacher), including an American girl. She was very nice and sociable, but she was obviously uncomfortable about even the shortest of silences in social situations, and we Finns were equally uncomfortable about her tendency to babble hysterically about anything whatsoever just to keep silence from falling even for a moment. One wanted to tell her “Seriously, we don’t hate you at all, but PLEASE shut up already! This is FINLAND, we LIKE silence here!”

To quote Saffron Monsoon from the BBC TV comedy Absolutely Fabulous:

“No, people don’t have to talk endlessly!”

Its been almost a year i have lived here in Finland. Its just shocking that I have not seen my nearest neighbour-forget about greetings and so on..!!! I dont even know if some one really exists next door!! I dont know what makes these people so ‘typical Finn’!!

Its just shocking that I have not seen my nearest neighbour-forget about greetings and so on..!!! I dont even know if some one really exists next door!!

*Shrug* Not everybody wants to have anything to do with their neighbors, especially in town. They might be busy with other things, too, and possibly spend very little time at home. How about just letting them be and socializing with those people who want to socialize? (Also maybe your next-door apartment really is empty.)

paula,

Iam talking abt omakotitalo.And, its NOT in a city.

Regarding the term ‘busy’, we all are- kind of- busy and have own stuffs to do. True, I have perfectly let them be free. Dont woryy!! And, my neighbour(S) are probably socializing with those whom they want.

Please get me that I am NOT seeking anyone come to me saying ‘Terve’. I was just talking abt the tendency here which is different from where I actually come from. I am sorry if my comment hurt or annoyed you.

Raks,

oh no problem, just trying to be helpful, I guess. That said, Finns living in omakotitalos usually do know their neighbors (at least by sight) and generally say terve, so your neighbors do sound slightly odd. Maybe they’re being overly shy of foreigners?

Phil, why don´t you try it? Next time someone says “How are you” start a lengthy description of your headache and tell about troubles finding a plumber who does not charge a million. Then proceed to describing your athletes feet.

Heh, my russian colleague told me about this, that if you ask a russian, how he is doing, he’ll tell you about his wife buying something too expensive, car breaking down, himself being on antibiotics etc.

Those two-faced Americans..

I went back to the US after living in Finland for a while and was shopping in one department store for clothes. A woman next to me asked me something about some clothing she was buying for her daughter. I literally jumped as if she had scared me. I had gotten so used to nobody ever talking to me in Finland in the stores that it was quite shocking! I had to laugh. I got back in the swing of things later on in the trip… I like Finnish directness though and going back to the “not saying what you really mean” culture in the US has been annoying. I guess it’s just what you get used to.

About the neighbors thing, when living in Helsinki it took a looonnnngg time for anybody to say hello (I spoke in Finnish). The little kids were friendly but the adults would just stare at you without saying anything. After a year or two of riding the elevator together and seeing each other in the halls they would say hi. We then moved to a small town. Everybody knew everything about us before we even got here. I introduced myself to our immediate neighbors by bringing some homemade baked goods over and we greet each other etc. Most on our street wave to us or say hello. However, we have other neighbors on our street (two houses down) that it took 2 years for them to say hello. I would be out in the yard working and every day they would go walking. I would wave as they walked by – they obviously knew I was their neighbor since I was in my yard – and say “hei.” They just looked away and walked on! This went on for 2 years!! Finally, they started saying hello out of the blue. ?!?!?!? Another neighbor is like that too – I wave when I drive by or see them and they just turn away. I’m sure they must know I live on the street since our street is quite small and has a dead end. I always joke with my husband about ways we can get them to at least respond…hand gestures for example! I guess I just have to wait for a couple years…

My daughter is really friendly and says hello to everyone. When she is in the driveway and someone walks by with their dog she will say hello in Finnish and wave. 99% of the time the people turn away and don’t respond. She kept asking me “why don’t they say hello mommy?” I can MAYBE see not saying hello to an adult (=stranger, you don’t greet people you don’t know) but why not to a child?

Phil is turning Finnish!

I don’t care much for over-friendliness from complete strangers; the scenario where an underpaid kid at Starbuck’s would actually care about how my morning’s been has always seemed unrealistic to my Finnish self. Unless your prepared to hear the REAL answer to the question, why ask, like?
But some basic courtesy from Finns would be much appreciated: smiling and saying hello to a stranger is not a crime. I mean, what’s the worst that can happen?

I lived in Japan for a while and the culture shock when returning to Finland was pretty bad: No-one took notice of me! I had gotten used to acknowledging neighbours and virtually all people around me in some way, but usually just by saying hello. This worked the other way ’round, too, and it was at times tiresome but mostly great. It’s a way of saying ‘I see you, and I respect you as my neighbour, and you’re part of my life because of where I live’. Even in Tokyo there was still that sense of community left, and having these strict norms of how to behave towards strangers and other people you came in contact with made life easier in many ways. At least you knew how to answer a shop clerk when they shouted their welcomes at you. It was great not being invisible, as so often happens in Finland.
I’ve never been to the U.S, but even the superficial politeness here in Britain drove me nuts until I accepted that it was often just talk, not necessarily a verbalisation of any real emotion. It was perhaps a blessing that I lived firt in Britain before going to Japan… Finns seem to sometimes confuse the two, or think that talk without emotion as back-up is just fake, and therefore really eeeeevil and invasive. I have to say that I quite like being met by other people in a polite manner, and tend to treat others with the same level of respect I get from them. I don’t give a shit whether they’re always sincere in their replies, sometimes just the gesture is good enough.
There aren’t that many clear cultural norms for how to meet and greet a complete stranger in Finland, and it leaves people puzzled. I’ve had some discussions about this on the Helsingin Sanomat site, where many of us Finns-who-live-abroad (what’s the English term for ‘ulkosuomalaiset’?) congregate. Some Finns are more sociable than others and want that polite contact with others, whereas it’s also acceptable for Finns to be the silent type in all occasions, including when working in customer service. I respect the argument that in a city people are often quite happily isolated from others and that it’s sometimes even seen as a city-dwellers ‘right’ to blank people you don’t want to get acquainted with. But I’d almost say that it’s the other way around: If you’re not that interested in other people, why live in a heavily populated area in the first place;)?
But a nice middle road is to be found somewhere between Finland and the U.S, and Japan for that matter, I’m sure.

But some basic courtesy from Finns would be much appreciated: smiling and saying hello to a stranger is not a crime. I mean, what’s the worst that can happen?

If and when people are used to it and take it as just a polite smile and a polite hello, fine. But I have been in situations where I ended up wishing I’d just averted my eyes and kept my mouth shut since the person I greeted clearly thought I think them something special and became a real nuisance.

Paula, that’s just what I was saying if you read my whole post: there aren’t any norms or rules to how to meet a stranger in Finland. It’s not very convenient to say hello to people there because people might actually start babbling about personal stuff, so I understand why Finns are reluctant to being polite. It’s regrettable. How are things in the Netherlands?

Paula had mentioned that she wished that she had averted her eyes because the contact initiated unwelcome contact.

I’ve had it happen the other way too – meaning Finns take my polite smile the wrong way. This is especially true when the other party is under the influence of alcohol!

Phil check your emails!
Or is there just a hint I’m not getting..

As for the topic at hand, I’d like alittle more smiling and common courtesy in Finland as well.
There should be some big campaign on TV with the Tarja, Matting and all the creme de la creme taking part and then everyone in Finland would start being polite and friendly at an exact stroke of time on a set date. Like the switch from left lane traffic to right lane traffic in Sweden.

The title it reminds me off a funny story btw..

President Martti Ahtisaari was on a state visit to the US and was meeting with president Clinton, he walked up the stairs with his pinguin walking style to shake his hand and intended to utter the phrase “hello, how are you?”. He opened his mouth but instead he said with his lousy Finnish-English accent “Hell, who are you”

Well I think it’s funny atleast..

Ool tö änimals aar tankerous…

“There should be some big campaign on TV with the Tarja…”

But we had such a campaign before the 1952 Helsinki Olympics to make people look less pissed-off about the war reparations, food rationing, lost Karelia or dad or brother coming back in a box few years earlier. Couldn’t we go another 50 years with that…

I had to search the archives for this. I think A Finn put it best (one of my favorite comments): “Some people are too stupid to do anything but speak.”

I will always remember the managing director (or Senior Vice President… why is it Americans love such grand sounding job titles) of the Americas division of my company. Everytime he walked down the corridor in our Europe office on his visits he would announce “Hi, how are ya?” at those he passed. He did this to me several times… my natural reaction is too answer the question, which I did several times, only to see him walking off down the corridor. Of course, he never actually meant it as a question as Phil illustrates in his opening remarks.

Anyway, on his last visit, sure enough, he passed me in the corridor; “How, how are ya?”. But, this time I said, “Fine, but would you mind stopping to allow me to answer your question, otherwise it’s rather inconsiderate. How are you?” He was rather shocked, yet we had a 2-3 minute conversation out of it… Perhaps he shall stop when he asks “Hi, how are ya?” to me on his next visit…

Phil is turning Finnish!

He is, he is!!! We’ve given him some good training.

Slightly off topic

Why do americans wear shoes indoors?

Am I really weird or something since I’ve always said hello to my neighbors (in big Finnish cities) and they’ve responded? I always say hello to the cashiers at supermarkets, too, and they also respond. I thought that this was common behavior in Finland but the comments here tell me otherwise.

It is true, though, that a lot of Finns lack simple socialising manners. Especially “excuse me” seems to be a difficult phrase for a lot of people.

But yeah, a big whooping YAY!!!! for not having to talk all. of. the. frigging. time. Silence is truly golden.

“Some people are too stupid to do anything but speak”

I guess some people might think that some people are too stupid to do anything but quote other people!

Miriam wrote:
“there aren’t any norms or rules to how to meet a stranger in Finland”

No rules at all? That’s not true. There are rules but they are a bit different then let’s say in the US or in Japan. In the US, for example, you might be supposed to greet everyone you come in contact with and ask about their day even though you’re actually not even slightly interested. In Finland that’s called “being fake and intrusive”.

As a rule of thumb, when meeting a stranger in Finland you should inconvenience the other party as little as possible and you should always respect their privacy. That doesn’t mean that you can’t sometimes exchange smiles or even a few words with them. I’ve had this happened to me several times even though I’m a finn and I live in Finland. It’s all about recognizing the situations where you are allowed to smile and have a little chit-chat. Admittedly it’s quite rare in Finland but it does happen.

Ahtisaari, by the way, lived in New York working in the UN for several years, and used English every day for decades as a diplomat among other things. Of course he talks pretty perfect English. Many diplomats and such choose to talk with a domestic accent, though. No reason to give native English speakers yet another advantage, the fact that they don’t have to struggle with finesses of a foreign language is enough.

I understand that in Finland people want privacy and don’t want to be inconvenienced. I suppose uttering a “hello” or exerting yourself by lifting your hand to wave is extremely inconvenient and also very invasive of other people’s privacy?

In the US it is easy because you say hi to everyone. In Finland you have to think “can I speak or not” (will I inconvenience them or do I know them so it’s ok to speak) or “did I greet them already today” (once a day only is the norm). Talk about inconvenience….

I’m not sure that saying hello or greeting people makes you fake. And I’m not sure that it’s intrusive to use “how are you doing” (as a greeting) if you don’t really expect an answer! Besides, if someone asks you can say fine. They wouldn’t grill you to really tell how you are and “intrude” upon you. In Finnish “ole hyvä” doesn’t really mean to be good does it? Should I feel that Finns are commanding me to be good? Talk about intrusive!!

Most Finns wouldn’t want to hear intimate details of how somebody is when they first meet them either. It is just a different way of doing things.

Comment by Blah:
“Slightly off topic
Why do americans wear shoes indoors?”

My theory is that they consider floors, as well as sidewalks, so dirty that you don’t want to make your socks/feet equally filthy. Of course if you walk around with street shoes, the floors become dirty, too! Finns consider floors clean by default, and don’t want to make them dirty with street shoes.

Working here in NYC, I always change into sandals after I get in. This has shocked many coworkers and work neighbors, especially in the winter. One neighbor-office dude even told me, that no-one around here comes in and changes into sandals… I was like “yo, homie, just watch me!”

And, at mi casa, I ask people to take shoes off right inside. The plan always fails when they are leaving: they put on their shoes, _then_ start walking around looking for their things & bags etc >;P

mb/nyc

Thanks mb

“Some people are too stupid to do anything but speak” .
Very true statement and funny thing when i came here first i found it refreshing not having to respond to hello`s from people i dont know , but been here for 4 years now i miss the anonymous greetings, going back to Ireland for week this year, so after 20 mins of hello, hows it going, what u doing, where u going, who`s that, wheres that, is it cold all the time………i will miss finnish anonymity, all those finns staring at the footpath the trees or anything that gives a half reasonable option of not making eye contact.

For Europeans wondering why Americans are the way they are, think of American friendliness and talkativeness in context of the American experience of becoming a nation:: America developed into “the land of small talk” because we were 800 different kinds of heavily armed Europeans each with different boiling points. Filling the void with friendly nonsense is a necessity.

When you use smiling and seemingly pointless smalltalk in the United States, it’s your way of saying “I’m not hostile”. To be actually friendly to someone, you have to PUSH friendliness- it’s rather subtle and hard to teach to foreigners. But it always comes back to the mistrust Americans had for each other in the beginning. For you Europeans, your smiling and engaging in pointless chatter has, since the very founding of the Jamestown colonies, been a way to keep high-strung and well armed Americans from killing you. You might want to consider that if you visit. Silence didn’t develop as a social tic in the United States, it developed as the MOMENT YOU’RE GOING TO ATTACK. Americans are descendants of these people. It’s a way of guaging your intent. Now, it has developed over the years: there are many subtle cues you can get by how enthusiastically you engage in it or the tone you put to it, but smalltalk ALWAYS has the original intent of

For instance, when that woman wanted to fill the void with chatter when talking to Paula, it means she was subconsciously afraid or uncomfortable in the situation she was in. The silence you take for granted exacerbated her sense of threat.

Smalltalk isn’t needed in homogeonous societies. The Swedes and Norwegians can generally be mild pricks in social situations because it doesn’t have deadly consequences for a small uniform society. The French in particular know precisely how far they can push each others, and portion it as an outlet for emotions.

If you want to do some social investigation, you should watch some American movies. Now, mostly they give you a completely unrealistic and actively misleading idea of the US social situation, but the one way they DO usually get it right is how quickly minor rudeness can descend into violence.

The next time you think smalltalk is due to the trivial nature of American social scene, you might consider that it might have a deadly necessity. Smalltalk is no small matter. It’s not shallow, it’s a way of guaging someone else.

James V., my sincere thanks to you for making it so obvious why small talk etc. is so important in the American society! I kind of like it, with some reservation, but after your well thought analyses plus side gained a lot.

Rgal, I enjoyed and laughed about your keen observations with hint of pain mixed with regret.

#32: do you have sources for your thesis, or is it something you made up? Would be interesting to read some academic studies to see what were basis of your comments.

#17: your joke about Ahtisaaari is totally off the mark. I met him on a number of social occasions where English was spoken. He was fluent in English. More importantly, he was also intelligent and had strong humanitarian values, which were sincere. In short, he was not a juntti as you portray him in your joke.

#30 I think the “privacy and inconveniencing” silence has developed. probably because of some similar reasons. Now being silent nobody can tell you are a stranger in town, so nobody will confront you, so you won’t get into trouble because of your accent. A mad drunk Finn will attack, if one starts pulling attention to themself. So being in a “faceless crowd” is one of the survival mechanisms… as well as “not paying attention” to drunks/crazies/strangers.

Was Peter asking himself if he had a study to back his own question up? Wow, think of the ontological implications.

I believe it. It probably has to do with the less contact prone life Fins lead combining with the more atomized modern life- it’s just easy to stay out of contact in a more solitary and dangerous world (modern dangers, meaning crime). My girlfriend, when I was in Oslo, thought they were standoffish and rude, but it was instantly explicable to me simply because it made sense- Scandanavia is damned cold. I didn’t want to talk to people outside either. If you’re raised there in what are essentially (from the average Scandanavian’s POV) the same boring old crowd in your boring old town, what reason do you have to strike up conversations?

#30

James V,

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it would be consired weird to greet every person you walk by on the streets of New York or another big city. Isn’t small talk used only in situations where you don’t really feel threatened? Like in offices, shops etc…

I guess the feeling of being threatened in the absence of communication does translate to the net as well, based on the amount of american spam in my inbox.

I am not a socialogist but I imagine that is in not to hard to believe that the culture of every society is formed from the makeup of its members.

In America, the majority of the members came from countries where social interaction tends to be relatively active: Italian, Irish, Polish, Spanish etc.

If social interaction is relatively more active in America than in Finland, it might be because of its ethnic makeup.

Today, when I travel to Italy or Poland or Spain or the USA, I see substantially more social interaction in those countries than in Finland.

I don’t believe it is because these countries are more “heavily armed” and people are enclosing themselves in some kind of protective armour of friendliness.

I don’t really know why these societies are more open than Finland. I suppose it has something to do with the climate. And perhaps, these societies were urbanized earlier than Finland where until relatively recently in the mid 20th century most Finns lived in rural areas. Perhaps, the different style of educational systems had an input as well.

It would be interesting to hear some constructive comments or theories on this issue instead of some comments found earlier in this thread which are, LOL, complete rubbish.

Incidentally, if you are in Helsinki, New York, Rome, Warsaw or whereever, the quickiest way to get in trouble with a crazy is to start to engage in small talk. It is best to keep to oneself, and ignore the other person, if he is acting abit strange.

Not the entire US is the overly friendly freakfest you all make it seem. New England is especially similar to here, but at least you have the option to say hello and that, when merely waved at or greeted, people will respond instead of the rudeness of turning away and pretending that you are actually living in a forest alone and somehow just imagined a tree waving and moving on its own instead of admitting that a person might want to say hello. Even a ‘fuck you’ from the nasty neighbour is better than being shunned and ignored.

I don’t entirely buy the cherished myths offered forth for the asocial behaviour in Finland as it’s not just with strangers that this happens. I had to go to a graduation party not long after first arriving. About 30 people, all family/related, sat around the living room looking down at the floor for about half an hour, but which seemed like an eternity. I nearly started crying as it was so uncomfortable and so unimagineably unfriendly that so many family members could get together and look at the floor. After the food was served it warmed up but I don’t think I ever recovered from that experience. At xmas, it took me and a colleague from Kuopio to rescue a work ‘party’ where when we arrived everyone was sitting around a table in the pub without beer and not saying anything. I was like, wow, time for a beer and maybe a whiskey. Apparently everyone else was from the silent Western side of Finland so we more or less had to get them out of their staring at the table contest.

While I don’t particularly enjoy the overly chatty American ways at times, it at least gives you the option of being friendly and it sort of makes life a little more pleasant when someone randomly compliments your attire or whatever. Small kindnesses can really lift your day. Here, everyone appears to be either so self-absorbed or so unwilling to appear friendly for fear of being mistaken as a foreigner that it almost seems absurd and as fake as the ‘how are you?’ greeting since both are reflexive.

Just get a dog and hang around a dog park as dog people are almost always chatty and greet each other.

In all my years in Finland, there was only one neighbour from the different buildings where I lived who sought me out.

She was an elderly widow living alone who was very lonely. Whenever she heard my door open, she would meet me in the hall way and engage me in conversation. She had no one else to talk to. Everybody else shunned her. I really felt sorry for her.

Likewise, everybody seemed to avoid everybody else in whatever apartment house I lived in during my time in Finland.

Each went into their respective boxes called apartments, and shut out the rest of the world behind their double doors.

When I lived outside of Finland, I regularly made friends with many of my neighbours, whether it was in the UK, US or one of the Baltic Countries. And shared an occasional evening out, or helped each other when someone needed something or a favour.

Ever wondered why rates of depression and suicide are so high in Finland?

I really love living in Finland and am very happy here. I haven’t found it hard to make friends here although I do think that often it takes a while to meet people. I’m not lonely or desperate for conversation. I enjoy talking but also can enjoy silence sometimes too. I can appreciate aspects of both cultures.

Even though I am American, when I see people and I say hello or wave I don’t expect them to engage in a lengthy conversation with me. Or to be my best friend for life either! I don’t want to invade their privacy (or feel I am). I am just acknowledging them as my neighbor. For me pretending we don’t exist is much more fake than a quick hello (in Finnish) or wave. If someone wants to talk ok, if not then it’s ok with me to go on my way. If I don’t want to talk I just say “I’m sorry but I’m in a hurry right now” and I don’t see anything wrong with that.

When we were at work we smelled smoke and heard the fire alarm. The “fire captain” on the floor said we had to get out of the building. As I was going down the steps (as one of the last ones to leave) I saw someone (a coworker) who was lying down on the steps. Hoards of people had already gone by this person who was holding her ankle as if she was hurt. I asked if she was ok and needed help. She said she twisted her ankle so I helped her down several flights of stairs. She, a Finn, had said no one else had bothered to help her – they just walked past and ignored her. When we got out of the building she explained that there was no real fire. They were just conducting a realistic test.

I guess Finns might expect that you ASK for help otherwise you are capable of managing by yourself? What do you think?

#42:

Many foreigners like Finland for a initial short period of time, perhaps a couple of years until the novelty wears off. Particularly, if you are young, male and like the attention that the girls give to foreign guys, and Finland is your first foreign country where you have lived.

However, after a few years, it becomes abit gray and boring, a large part due to the unfriendliness inherent in Finnish culture.

I don’t have any statistics to prove it but, at least, what I have seen, most foreigners – unless they marry and perhaps come from a third world place – leave after a few years somewhat disillusioned.

Some leave because of the climate, some because career opportunities and salaries are so low, and others leave because of the social isolation inherent in Finnish society.

Again, I don’t have any statistics, but I believe that the retention rate for foreigners from OECD countries in Finland is probably much lower than other countries.

Incidentally, I was initially very positive about Finland myself, but eventually left, and I now only return for short visits to see my Finnish buddies – I would not consider moving back despite the fact that I do have some good memories of my stay there.

Yes!

If the woman was Black or Asian, and if she had collapsed in a train station, God knows what would have happened

But some basic courtesy from Finns would be much appreciated: smiling and saying hello to a stranger is not a crime. I mean, what’s the worst that can happen?

Happens to me all the time, especially in our apartment building…

*shrugs

Arttu, how long have you lived there and what part of Finland do you live in (what is the size of the town)?

Forget the talking and the saying hello. What always got me was how Finns do not hold the door open for the person behind them, especially the women who will contort their body to slip through a closing door in an effort to not touch it.

I think this is somewhat related. When you say hello or how are you doing, you are recognizing their presence, as is holding the door open for them. Is one related to the other, I am not sure.

Fred, at least my dad has completely stopped opening doors for Finnish women, as he feels that his courtesy is being ignored when no-one ever thanks him for it. I think it’s related to not saying hello. It’s ignorance, and not just respecting other people’s privacy.

About not holding doors, I think maybe Finns feel that they can (and want) to do things for themselves? To me they seem quite independent and don’t rely on others in general to do things for them. For example, in the US people expect you to give directions to your house. Finns get out a map and figure it out themselves. I respect Finns for being so self-reliant in many ways.

I (a woman) hold doors for people regardless if they are male or female. This naturally causes confusion for the Finns when I do this! I personally don’t think the whole door holding thing is a gender issue. I just think if I already am going through it’s quite easy to hold the door for a second more to let someone else go through – whether it’s a man or woman. Or I will hold it if I see someone who is carrying lots of things. On the flip side I like it if someone holds the door for me.

I’ve heard of some Finnish women who get mad about things like that and say “I can do it myself!” I feel like the person who held the door isn’t holding it because they think I can’t but because they are being courteous so I don’t take offense or get mad.

I’ve lived in this building for 5 years or so, but it’s a fairly transient population. It’s in Kallio, Helsinki…

Generally, I end up in short conversations with random strangers much more often could be expected were one to believe the hoary platitudes trotted out about a number of nationalities in this thread…

Arttu, so maybe it’s just that Finns don’t talk to foreigners?

And if you live in Kallio I have to ask…are they drunk?

#50 says:

“About not holding doors, I think maybe Finns feel that they can (and want) to do things for themselves? To me they seem quite independent and don’t rely on others in general to do things for them. For example, in the US people expect you to give directions to your house. Finns get out a map and figure it out themselves. I respect Finns for being so self-reliant in many ways.”

Finland is a nanny state, providing from cradle to the grave, and treating you like a child when it tries to limit your activity in somne way, ie. buying alcohol. What is this self-reliant stuff?

And what is wrong with being considerate in providing directions to one’s house. You make it sound like a serious moral lapse to be helpful to someone.

Frankly, Finnish and American societies have much more in common with one another, then all this superficial sparring would otherwise indicate. Each country has its nuances and peculiar customs, but the US has probably more in common with Finland, and vice versa than Finland and the US has with Greece or Italy, for example.

My first Finnish friend here in the U.S. would respond with “Do you really mean that?” when I asked him how he was. Married to a Finn, spent a few years in Finland. Now, when I ask a Finn or another foreigner who has lived there that question I phrase it “How are you, in the Finnish sense of the question?”

I find the comments about self-sufficient Finns to be true in my experience. People in Finnish communities here in the USA can be really funny that way. I have a group of close friends in the Washington DC Finnish community who have a set system that works for them, it it’s always best if you are not a Finn to follow their ways. On countless occasions, I have given them suggestions for better efficiency and compatibility with American customs, but my sugestions are rarely taken. One example, a Finn might give his/her address on an email with no directions. Or, another Finn might say in an email “meet at Tarja’s house” as if we all knew where Tarja’s house was. Americans can be so used to having everything spelled out for them, that we often don’t think for ourselves. Other times, when I am talking to Americans in business matters, they will ask me to be more specific. I find this very annoying. At least my perception is that what I meant was self-evident. In the USA, there are so many ways to interpret someone’s intentions, but when I am in Finland, I often get the feeling that many Finns are able to read my mind. It’s amazing. Perhaps teir staidness or reticence has led to better reasoning, deduction, and listening skills.

Regarding the silence vs. small talk debate…I find Finnish quietness and social terseness to be quite refreshing. I lived in Finland for one year, and maybe I’d feel differently if I had lived there for a longer period. My general observation is that there are pros and cons to both ways. In the USA, one has the luxury to start a conversation with whoever they want, about any subject. In Finland, one has the luxury to enjoy silence and moments of reflection whenever they want. But in Finland, it’s hard to make friends quickly. That can be personally difficult for foreigners. In the States, it’s easy to make too many friends, and then knowledge of who you trust can be clouded. Also, if one wants peace and quiet and reflection among the crowd, I find it pretty much impossible.

#53

My comment wasn’t an attack against Americans after all I am one. And they weren’t intended to imply that Americans are not self-reliant. I just think they are self-reliant in a different way.

I don’t think it is inconsiderate to provide directions or “a moral lapse”. If so I must be morally decrepit. I think it’s nice if somebody does. But I have never (ever) had a Finn ask me for directions. Finns are self-reliant in that way. I assume Americans can read a map too (I am one of them and I certainly can and do) but the custom is to rely on others to tell you how to get from point A to point B. In my experience, Americans tend to gather information by asking moreso than Finns do. Maybe your experience is different?

I don’t think Finns intend to be rude when they don’t hold the door open either. I just think they have a different way of thinking about things.

About opening the doors. I usually open for the ladies and nobody has complained, but it is more just complicated here. Be selective, to whom you open and don’t make a big deal about it. Don’t open it to some pissis, who thinks the whole world wants a piece of her ass or those, who look like they are going to give you the feminist crap. Most older ladies remember the time, when it was just common courtesy.

And be quick, otherwise you end up letting the damn battallion in.

On self-reliance, well, for me the welfare state is just something that prevents my children having a fabulous fate, written by H.C. Andersen, if I get hit by a brick, while walking on the street and end up being a vegetable. I can have all the booze, smoke and unsaturated fats I need. Old geezers, especially in the countryside, are quite reluctant to receive any kind of help. You can see the bad side of it in the typical finnish male behaviour; he doesn’t go to see the doctor, until the symptoms are intolerable.

To be honest it pisses me somewhat every time I read some interview of some modern metrosexual, who practically boasts of not being able to change a fuse, if the lights go out or doesn’t have a clue of the inner workings of his car. Heck, the cars and fuses are as much western civilization as Virginia Woolf or bloody Derrida.

OK, everybody has a mobile phone to call for help, but if you are driving somewhere in spruce’s ass and your radiator cap pops up and is lost somewhere, it is a lot more fun to take a piece of wood, carve a tap for a replacement and secure it down with your belt, than waiting whole night for someone to come and tow you away.

…And all the saturated fats I need…

Well, some of my neighbours must be quite shy…
it happened several times that when I’m leaving or
coming home one of my neighbours is leaving.
S/he’s about to close door when s/he hears
me, realizes the s/he will soon face the excruciatingly
painful situation of meeting a neigbour on the stairs,
so s/he does a sudden about-turn, re-enters home
and slams the door behind.
Then I pass and reach my floor and 30-60 seconds later,
if it’s quiet again on the stairs, the ‘shy’ neighbour
opens his/her door again and continue where s/he was
interrupted.
No offence intended, but I found a behaviour so stupid
that every time it happens I feel amused.
“Böööö! Bugbear is coming!”

Reading these comments about relateives who do not talk to each other at parties, neighbors who do not greet each other, people who do not help each other, and office parties where people sit around sipping beer and not talking makes me feel like I live in a Finland that is situated in some strange parallel world. All of the situations that I mentioned above are pretty foreign to me.

Reading all the coments on this page and speaking to my Danish and Swedish friends in NY about Finnish people is like telling a New Yorker to move to rural New Jersey, if you understand the socioloigy (New Jersey is considered crappy). I’ve been to Helsinki several times for business and it seems that the people are a mirror of their enviroment. Cold and without character. I don’t mean to be a dick but everyone voices their opinion about the States or Russia or where ever so let’s call a duck a duck. It sucks there on multiple levels. I guess that’s why it’s not a tourist destination for many. Stockmans cannot be the highlight of a city and expect to be taken seriously. BTW/ I’m not american so don’t feel inclined to attack them cause I said I live in NY.
PS
Never seen such bad fashion in my life.

Auriga , you’re right that the more gregarious American habits aren’t universal. Larger cities tend to have a more anonymous feel to them, and the North in particular is less talkative than the South- although as soon as you hit the rural North or even medium sized metropolises in places like New Hapshire, you are back in the more open territory. Regional, state and even within state differences are sometimes large in this respect, but it’s still a very solid American social trait.

:I am not a socialogist but I imagine that is in not to hard to believe that the culture of every society is formed from the makeup of its members”

Actually, it is by definition a makeup of its individual memebers.

“I don’t believe it is because these countries are more “heavily armed” and people are enclosing themselves in some kind of protective armour of friendliness.”

I didn’t say “these countries”, or even the United States itself. I said this was the historical reason for America being what it is now, as a carry-over from older times. You’re making the mistake of generalizing a long held social custom from its origins. As I intimated earlier, the reason Americans have this gregariousness now is because it conforms to more modern needs- as a form of pleasant social interaction.

“Incidentally, if you are in Helsinki, New York, Rome, Warsaw or whereever, the quickiest way to get in trouble with a crazy is to start to engage in small talk. It is best to keep to oneself, and ignore the other person, if he is acting abit strange”

Yup. Dats cities for ya.

“About not holding doors, I think maybe Finns feel that they can (and want) to do things for themselves?”

Ah, but I do dearly love all forms of civalry. I’m a huge proponent of opening doors for women, letting women have seats in busses, getting up when women leave the table, etc.

Interesting story- first time in Europe, I was in Helsinki. I opened the door for an old woman who couldn’t walk easily, and smiled. She smiled back and went through. A stunning woman -the kind that stops busses and causes car crashes and strained necks- came up behind her so I held the door open for her as well, and she snapped “I can do that mySELF” in a very sharp tone and a really harsh look. I don’t know why, but I was just CRUSHED. That had never, ever happened to me anywhere else, even in other countries. I just lowered my head and said “I’m sorry”. I must have looked truly pitiful because she immediately backtracked and apologized sweetly. Anyway, long story short, it turned out she was the love of my life. Later she said I looked like I was going to cry and I looked like a kicked puppy.

Incidentily, she became hooked on Southern flirting and manners and adored the whole civalry aspect of the culture, blushing and giggling when I opened car doors and the like (when she finally learned, she was a natural flirt). I’m not a patriot, but I do believe completely in mannerred flirting and chivalric behavior. It’s one of the truly great unearned graces.

Anonymous: So how come the influx of tourists to Finland has increased rapidly from year to year? If it is truly the fortress of bad fashion and unfriendlyness that you make it out to be?

Just the fact that you think that Stockmann is some sort of main tourist attraction shows that you obviously haven’t put much time and effort into actually getting to know Helsinki or Finland.

I don’t believe in chivalry in the sense where it is directed specifically from men to women. I do not see why women can’t open doors for men, bring them flowers, and help them across the street. To me, these things are a matter of common courtesy, not of chivalry and flirting.

If I happen to be walking right in front of a man and open the door before him, I will keep the door open for him and not slam it in his face just because I am a woman and he is a man. Unless I am dressed in a big, complicated dress or am wearing uncomfortable shoes, I will not sit in a car twirling my thumbs until my male companion opens the door for me. I also don’t see why I shouldn’t offer to help a man to carry large bags or packages if I happen to be carrying nothing.

If this makes me unfeminine and some sort of an example of a typical Finnish bitch, then so be it.

Anzi – “Reading these comments about relateives who do not talk to each other at parties, neighbors who do not greet each other, people who do not help each other, and office parties where people sit around sipping beer and not talking makes me feel like I live in a Finland that is situated in some strange parallel world. All of the situations that I mentioned above are pretty foreign to me.”

Unfortunately, I didn’t make this stuff up. If I would have had a means of escape from that family graduation party I would have bolted in minutes. My husband contends that this is absolutely normal. I didn’t even mention the part of the graduate’s grandmother who when introducted to me she glared at me as though I had three heads. Just as not all of the US is a chatty love-in, not all of Finland is a cone of silence.

The thing I don’t get is how there is an implied value judgement that somehow silence and shunning is more ‘sincere’ than greeting someone with “Hi, how are you?” It’s just as much a part of the script as is Finns staring at the ground to avoid eye contact.

Anzi…also, about the tourism, I think most of them arrive via cruise ship and only spend the afternoon. It is very disappointing that the demand for budget airlines into Helsinki doesn’t seem to be enough to sustain any that have tried to make a go of it here. Rovaniemi seems to do alright with the Santa and reindeer with the Brits and the Asians every year though.

James V. – NH “Open”? Hahah…you’ve clearly never been to NH. Best joke about NH was the one where a news reporter was interviewing an 80 year old man somewhere in NH and she asks, “Have you lived here all your life?” There was a long pause and the response, “Not yet.” Head for flyover country then you’ll see what ‘open’ is all about when the guy standing behind you in the grocery check-out line tells you all about his latest colonoscopy.

I think Anzi’s opinion at #66 highlights well the finnish mentality on manners in general. People don’t necessarily do what is good in the golden book of good manners, but what is practical.

Lenita Airisto made a tsunami about finnish businessmen wearing white tennis socks with a dark suit. Well, “the businessmen” in question happened to be Rauma-Repola (now Metso) CEO Tauno Matomäki, who was selling oil drilling equipment for some Texas oil millionaires and had only adopted their dress code.

Well, Helsinki isn’t exactly the most joyful barrack in the camp, but they have a lot more to see, than Stockman. If one is looking for some fashinable rags, it is better to go straight to Paris or Milan.

The thing I don’t get is how there is an implied value judgement that somehow silence and shunning is more ’sincere’ than greeting someone with “Hi, how are you?” It’s just as much a part of the script as is Finns staring at the ground to avoid eye contact.

You are insightful as ever. That is so true, and it bothers me as well. There is a cherished myth in Finland that chatting and small talk is somehow silly and frivolous behavior which should be avoided in order to be taken seriously. I find this weird. I’m all for not having to talk when you don’t want to talk and I do love the finnish respect of silence and privacy, but sometimes good ice-breaking chit-chat is very welcome. Sometimes you just want to shoot the breeze without it having to mean anything.

I started thinking about why finnish floor-staring contests are so foreign to me and realised that maybe it’s because I have a tendency to start conversations with people in situations like that. I usually get responses, too. If I don’t, I shrug it off and continue on to the next person. I guess it’s just the way I was brought up. I don’t give up easily, not even with my taciturn compatriots.

Feminine (in a traditional sense) doesn’t especially spring to mind when I think of Finnish women as a whole. Words like modern, pratical and independant are more apt in my opinion. And I don’t think it has to do with whether they follow traditional etiquette either but is more in their style and attitude. I think a woman can, for example, hold a door for a man and still project femininity. I think many Finnish women look down upon being considered feminine (in a traditional sense) as if it is being weak and subservient.

Lets face it, we Finns handle causual conversation like a hand granade, and any kind of light harted interaction with a stranger (those of whom we have known less than 3 yrs.) is, if not against the law, considerd as being contrary to the the “good” manners which have been passed from generation to generation. Well, something strange happened during the past 50 years and our society changed from the backward agricultural one to this postindustrial high tech one but, in some sense, most of us never left the sticks. We are finally part of the rest of the world but we look like nobody else. We have built this silly myth about us where we try to convince, mainly ourselves, that our grumppy, stoic, non verbal, and reserved bone headedness is something to be admired about. We feel that these foreign bastards should melt in admiration seeing us desperately diving in bushes to avoid horendous possibility of being violated by intrusive and careless hellos and unpleasant eye contacts. I truly believe that we would be amusing to the rest of the world if it wasn’t so sad.

“Group says New Orleans’ juveniles imprisoned under terrible conditions

By MARY FOSTER Associated Press Writer

(AP) – NEW ORLEANS-When Hurricane Katrina crashed into the Orleans Parish juvenile detention center, 15-year-old Eddie Fenceroy spent three days without anything to eat or drink, standing in sewage-filled water that reached past his hips, he said.

“It had feces and stuff floating around in it, but some people drank it anyway because they were so thirsty,” said Fenceroy, who spoke at a news conference held Tuesday by the Juvenile Justice Project of Louisiana.”

This stuff is straight out of some third world hellhole. So maybe we Finns are not so talkative but at least there is not so much BS floating around. I have seen cultures where everybody is always smiling and polite but they rarely say directly what they mean. Behind one’s back you can say anything but never directly.

So what is the point of having hundreds of polite “friends”, talking shit most of the time, when you know not one of them is going to help you when shit hits the fan? All of sudden they are all busy…

I also think many (not all) Finnish women tend to focus on trivial things like a man holding the door open as a feminist issue or attack against equality for women. They take offense to courtesy. This may be the thing that gives the “bitchy” impression. They seem to do this instead of focusing their energy on real issues pertaining to equality of women like equal pay in the workforce.

When a Finnish woman with a baby carraige boards a tram and a man helps the woman often acts as though it is something required. No thank you is offered or show of appreciation since they feel it is a man’s responsibility. They turn it into a male-female issue when I think it should be about one person helping another. So why not say thank you or acknowledge the help? I think it is about common courtesy rather a feminist issue.

I wonder if drinking has something to do with this cherished myth of enforced silence.

I don’t know how many times I have seen Finns in social gatherings avoiding contact but guzzling down alcohol. And often, you can see their courage starting to build with each refill, and you say to yourself, now any moment now…

And suddenly,these quiet shy guys are rapidly transformed into loud and boring drunks who come uninvited into your group and you can not shake them off.

One Finnish stereotype of a quiet reserved Finn metamorphizes into the second stereotype of the Finnish guy with a few too many.

I always thought that alcohol was the lubricant for many individuals with these cherished Finnish “good manners” of silence etc. to free themselves of it, and make social contact.

Anzi (comment #60) Also I have to admit I encountered all of the mentioned silent treatments among family, friends and strangers. So much even that I’m almost used to it. It’s only a bit tricky to therefore start saying “Finns are …” I mean, I know still enough Finns that do not act in this way.

I wonder if drinking has something to do with this cherished myth of enforced silence.

To put it short: It totally does.
I know a lot of people who say that they need alcohol to become more social and have a better time at parties. Most of them are much more fun sober. They might be taciturn and reserved, but at least they are sweet and calm instead of obnoxious and loud.

Anzi – Well, anyplace that makes me look like the life of the party in the majority of social situations has issues

Tim73 – What does a natural disaster, the likes of which would cripple even Finland, have to do with basic social norms? I don’t think you understand the magnitude of the disaster or the masses of people volunteering, even nearly a year later, to help get people back on their feet, even when FEMA and the rest of the governmental agencies failed. One hopes that when/if another storm hits NO again this year that they’ll be better prepared for disaster. You should hope Finland will never have to deal with something of that magnitude…like the sea rising a few meters as Greenland really starts melting.

Tim 73:

What is your point?

Imagine that Helsinki was the city hit by a Category 5 hurricane. Both Helsinki and New Orleans are similar in size. NO had 480 k people and abit over 1 million in its environs.

Imagine 80% of Helsinki flooded with 7 meters of water, and all the roads cut off, and 1300 people dying in the storm surge of water., and hurricane gust winds of up to 200 kmph for 6 hours smashing most of the windows in the city’s hotels and even blowing out beds from the hotel rooms and desks from the office buildings. And gas main breaking causing fires. And some 30 000 people trapped in the Hartwell Areenats Areena for many days.

And severe damage from Turku to Kotka and to Tampere in the north.

And, no water, no electricity, and very limited amounts of food entering Helsinki.

How is your comment relevant to this thread?

hfb& peter: Every other nation there except USofA was prepared, especially Cuba was hit really hard multiple times last summer but with few casualties.

It is not like those hurricanes came out of nowhere like earthquakes. New Orleans leevees was PREDICTED to break but nothing was done in all of those years before Katrina. Not even evacuation plans, nothing.

There are no excuses for this kind of behavior. Many Americans behave like teenagers and take no responsibility for their actions. So maybe we Finns are not so polite and talkative but we get things done. I hope we will never have a small talk culture here because that would mean we have turned to useless Elois.

Tim73:

I hope that Finland never has a disaster on the magnitude of Hurricane Katrina.

And I hope that your theory never gets tested in practice.

But even on a much smaller scale, the Finnish government’s response to the tsunami victims were considered inadequate.

At first reporting that all Finns were safe, and on the next day reporting that a few were injured, and then on the third day reporting that several hundred were missing.

Imagine a disaster 1000 times greater to hit Finland proper.

Tim73 – While I will admit there aren’t many words to describe the anger I felt over how things happened in NO, your ideas about the disaster are infantile. I might also add that Cuba has considerably less infrastructure and is not built on a sub-sea level river delta. Unfortunately the press only concentrated on scenes of the poor people who didn’t have the means or the smarts to get the hell out of the way of a storm that large and powerful. I barely managed to get off the island of St. Croix before Hugo hit and the way that island was denuded (where looting and mayhem broke out in the storm’s wake, too) it gives you a new respect for the immense power of these storms. No amount of planning will prevent these disasters, especially now when it seems their frequency and intensity are only increasing.

In times of disaster like that, the veneer of what we all like to comfort ourselves with as ‘civilisation’ disappear. While one can never say with any certainty how people will react in times such as the Katrina disaster, when it comes to survival, people act like dumb apes more often than not, regardless of whether they’re American or Finnish, gabby talkers or silent brooders. I wouldn’t comfort yourselves thinking even for a moment that a real, serious natural disaster would be any different here than anywhere else.

I suppose Finland should be delighted that nothing ever happens here…that way you can claim how superior your response might be without ever having to find out if it is or not.

I agree with Arttu… but things are friendlier in the Swedish speaking enclave anyway.

WOW! you people are a mess. Given the high education Finnish society claims to bestow upon its masses, the evidence here is the contrary. I assume most here are Finnish. What are you people discussing? It went from Americans have useless small talk to natural disasters.
My deduction from reading about the blogger (PHIL) is that he was an outcast in America (probably went to a state school and couldn’t get laid to save his life so he hid behind computers) and went to Finland with the expectations that his social structure would change and appreantly it has. He now comments on how useless and nonfunctional small talk is. What a cunt. From the looks of him he must be dating a big ol’ gal with bifocals who reassures him she won’t leave him for her countrymen.

“I don’t believe in chivalry in the sense where it is directed specifically from men to women.”

Yeah well, it’s a free country, you’re free to be wrong. Chivalric behavior is a sense of going beyond courtesy into honor, hence your confusion in thinking chavalric behavior is mere courtesy. And, whether you believe it or noticie it or not, it is intensely sexual and gentle* at the same time, making it almost entirely male and directed at women.

Your behavior is courteous, not chivalric. There is a difference. Courteous would consciously go out of its way to make someone feel good. Chivalry would insantly and without thought save a life in danger. Chivalry is a completely different level of existing from courtesy.

*- Well, the part of chivalry that still survives, anyway. Obviously there was more to it than mere relations between sexes, but for this discussion it’s true enough.

“I think Anzi’s opinion at #66 highlights well the finnish mentality on manners in general. People don’t necessarily do what is good in the golden book of good manners, but what is practical.”

I think you’re right, and that’s why she’s wrong. Chivalry is, at its basis, not practical but romantic, making it completely alien to Finnish society*. That’s the key: chivalry could never be practical.

*- All Finnish utopianism seems to be relagated to childish socialist claptrap.

“James V. – NH “Open”? Hahah…you’ve clearly never been to NH”

Just got back last year from living in three different places throughout rural NH for almost five years, and they had a great yankee version of southern hospitality. Except for a bit more stoicism and less locquaisciousness than southerners, they ALL waved and said “hello” (or, rather, “lo”, seemingly incapable of saying “hell”).

In fasct, every time I got to talk to someone at a store I almost had to shoot myself in the foot to avoid talking to them for 45 minutes I had to go through so much pleasantness. I went to a feed store (for a gf’s hand cream) once and spent the entire morning and half the afternoon making small talk with the people who passed through “just to say hi”. You’re not just wrong about NH, you’re double dog ding dong wrong.

#44 if you are young, male and like the attention that the girls give to foreign guys,

And then one wonders why the young, male Finnish guys are hostile towards foreigners

James V. – I didn’t say they didn’t talk, but they’re certianly not Southerners. I wouldn’t call them open, either, at least not to strangers. I’ve not been to rural NH much since we of Taxachusetts generally only venture up there for tax-free shopping and booze. (That TV news clip though…that really happened.) The old farts can be really inscrutable old bastards. You’d be the first southerner I’ve ever heard thinking that New England was any where near hospitable by southern standards.

Anonymous – No, Phil managed to marry an attractive blonde Finnish girl. We aren’t entirely sure how that happened except that the local selection of guys is apparently rather, unappealing. Show ‘em some pictures Hank. It’s real unlikely she’ll dump him for a local boy.

“…except that the local selection of guys is apparently rather, unappealing.”

Noo, we are the best A-class. It is the blondes that are leftovers. Everyone wants a dark brown-eyed beauty and settles for the round, rosy-cheek countrygirl, who is good at farmworks.

For anyone on this thread who can read Finnish I recommend Juha Ruusuvuori’s book ‘Muukalaisena Muumilaaksossa’ (‘A Stranger in Moomin Valley’), where he explains how much nicer it is to live in a Swedish-speaking small town on our west coast than Helsinki or any part of Northern or Eastern Finland. The people are so much nicer. Really.

Well I have to agree with prince of dorkness here. The western and south-western Finland is like another country when compared to north-eastern and eastern Finland. The mentality is totally different. I’ve also read from somewhere that there’s more heart disease and mental health problems in eastern Finland than in the west.

Maybe it’s the swedish influence in the west, I don’t know. If it is then are the eastern finns perhaps affected by the close proximity to Russia then?

Höh, what’s wrong with us easterners? We are talkative and poke our noses in other people businesses out of sheer curiosity. Even talk to the strangers in the bus. I’m from a small village. If somebody moved in, he was quickly integrated, if he was active enough to see his new neighbours and join the hunting society, Martta-club, church choir or some other local activity. I suspect the swedish speaking “duck pond” may have some invisible glass roofs and -walls, although one of my best party experiences is somehow ending up in a finland-swedish homecoming party, without knowing anyone there.

And the food culture…well, traditionally in the eastern Finland they warmed up the oven every week to bake fresh bread and great variety of different pastries, while the westerners baked a lot of bread once a year and ate those terrible dry rye känttys with hole in the middle for the rest of the year. Even the orthodox religion is more tolerant to the small pleasures of life, than the western, pietism-spoiled lutheranism.

The heart diseases are exactly caused by the good food with a lot of butter, cream and salt. And the mental health problems are due to our bipolar nature with high points really high and the low points really low plus the destruction of the social fabric, when everybody had to move to Sweden or south in the 70′s.

OK, my observations in the east are probably somewhat biased, as they can tell me being a local the second I open my mouth and a lot has changed, since I left, but the only times I have had to tolerate outrageous behaviour from a stranger are from my years in the south

#90, 91

I don’t remember which town of bättre folk it was, maybe Porvoo, where a lady behind a market square counter was reading HS, but couldn’t understand my finnish. So much about swedish influence.
Well, finn-swedes are not exactly swedish, but still…
And what comes to eastern hospitality, asking directions from total stranger has never led me such chit-chat like in Savonlinna, Ilomantsi…
Once I even had a counter-question, what am I going there for, and if I’d see this-and-that who lives in the same neighbourhood, would I say hello?

Damn, it’s not the first time when this antti -guy has the word from my mouth written here while I’m still typing my comment (in ten fingers -style: two writing and the rest eight searching).

“James V. – I didn’t say they didn’t talk, but they’re certianly not Southerners”

I didn’t say they were, they just had the civility thing down pat.

“The old farts can be really inscrutable old bastards. You’d be the first southerner I’ve ever heard thinking that New England was any where near hospitable by southern standards”

Well no, not by Southern standards, but by Finnish standards they are. I agree, yankees are natural pricks and probably have low character and are renowned for having small penises as well, but the rural people are vastly different than the cities. They do say “hello”. (or, rather, ‘lo’) to an extent that would probably get them put in an asylum in Scandanavia.

Phil – you’re turning into a Finn!

I can relate, I experience the same shock when I go home to Canada…

The terrible truth about us , the Finnish males, is that we are butt ugly. Don’t bother coming to Finland, ladies, for eye candy, cause you aint gonna find any! It is true, though, that Eastern Finland have the most open and fun loving people. I should know since I have lived in practically every region.

The terrible truth about us , the Finnish males, is that we are butt ugly.

Bullshit. Finnish men are not handsome in the traditional sense, but they have a rugged bear-like charm that I, and many others, find absolutely irresistible.

Give me my Karhumies love machine over some groomed smooth operator any day.

I personally love the deep voices that so many Finnish men have! Very sexy!!

And once you get them talking they have a great sense of humor too!

I’m not going to touch the whole Finnish politeness vs US politeness stuff with a 40-foot pole, but I do have one question: what about giving up your seat in a bus/tram/whatever for someone else?

Me, if I see an older person, or pregant or wieghed down with shopping, I always feel like I should give up my seat for them. Usually I do, but sometimes the person I offer the seat to is embarrassed by this, and I just end up feeling guilty. I still do it tho, coz it’s hardwired into my behaviour set. So am I being rude or what?

Oh, and I don’t give up my seat just because there’s a woman standing. Only for those who look like standing would be a problem/uncomfortable.

-BM
(for background: Scottish, male, 20s, been in Helsinki about 5 years)

Badgermushroom: The other person may sometimes seem embarrassed, but never mind. We Finns are sometimes really bad at reacting to polite behavior toward us, but that doesn’t make you impolite or anything.

I’m female, 30, Finnish, and I also do my best to offer my seat if an elderly person or some such is standing in a public transport. The problem being that I’m often so deep in my own thoughts sitting in public transports that I just don’t notice them – just like I may “ignore” people I know and even friends in public places. I suspect the same applies to many other Finns.

It is a Finnish counter-politeness thing working there. Like if you are offered coffee, you should decline twice and then ‘just a half’ on the third offer… This is a very hard-wired fashion in older people, as is the “weird” habit of bringing a packet of coffee when going on a visit. Now that is explainable as coffee was the one luxury that was rationed until 1952! So thats why coffee is one of the weird focal points of elder society, and theres a bit weird habits regarding it on whats proper and whats not.

So if you say yes on the first offer you are being greedy… same thing about the offering of the seat – someone discomforting themselves on my behalf etc. you’re supposed to wrangle for a while.

how’s your morning been so far? let’s get together soon!

i totally agree with you. i say “hi,” but rarely “how’re you doing?” because unless i care about you, i don’t really want to hear about your fucking day.

maybe you should pretend you don’t speak english…

So if you say yes on the first offer you are being greedy… same thing about the offering of the seat – someone discomforting themselves on my behalf etc. you’re supposed to wrangle for a while.

So it’s a case of: “After you” “no, after you”, “Oh, but I insist”, “Oh, all right then”? Like some 1950s idealised civil society?

What excessively polite people Finns are.

Btw, what made me come back to this conversation was being reminded of it while reading this:

Audi, vide, tace, si tu vis vivere (in pace). – “Hear, see, be silent, if you wish to live (in peace).” Roman proverb.

Could quite easily be a Finnish proverb too…

-BM

So it’s a case of: “After you” “no, after you”, “Oh, but I insist”, “Oh, all right then”? Like some 1950s idealised civil society?

Well, in principle yes. Of course this varies between regions, but the undertow is there. Of course as in every “big city” the inhabitants of Greater Helsinki Area are perceived to be rude by people from other parts of the country.

I don’t know if it is “politeness” but some people are very “shy” in a sense that they “don’t want to be trouble” so like older people won’t go to see a doctor as “there are more sick people than I”.

When I came to study here in eastern finland from southern finland, I was in shock the first few months. Strangers chatting to me by parking meters, in lines in the supermarkets, on the marketplace etc. That had never happened to me in the south (except with some drunks). The chatter, and by finnish standards freaky openness, can’t be really compared with american style smalltalk, it’s something, let’s say karelian, that’s definitely happening only in eastern parts of finland.

I’m fortunately learning the habbits or manners or norms more and more every day, and it is always strange when I get back to southern finland or visit the west coast.

It might be a good idea to respond to a “how are you?” like “paskaaks tässä” or “ei kurjuutta kummempaa” and then continue in english. After all that’s exactly what most finnish think how they are doing.

BTW it really boggles my mind that people wear shoes indoor and only take them off when they go to bed? Yet you take off your jacket etc?

Oh, mine is “same shit, different package, delivered daily”.;)

Lets get together soon! I’ll call! What’s your number! We should hang out!
The number of times a Finn has said that to me and I’ve never heard from them again. heh.
Also “how are you” is a greeting. It’s a set routine of politeness. Do not think that “how are you?” actually means “how are you?” So given that it does appear to be a question, you might think it’s meaningless and making Americans appear to “not really care” but that’s not what it is. If you have time you might be interested in reading up on some some cross-cultural and intercultural social interaction.