Porvoo Cathedral ARSON
@ 12:54 pm 
So anyone having their wedding planned there, change of venue…
The fire brigade managed to contain the fire, so only the outer roof and “attic” burned, the vaulted inner cieling remained intact and the interior didn’t receive total damage. The chandeliers have crashed to the floor, and there is doubt of the condition of the organs that may hav been damaged in the heat, but as the fire brigade removed artefacts from the church and used as little water as they could to avoid water damage.
Initial police statement at 10 am was that “the fire started externally”.
Porvoo Cathedral dates from the 13th century and was completed to its current form in the 1400’s and refurbished in the 1730’s. A landmark of the City, the cathedral stands on a hilltop overlooking one of the few remaining old “wooden cities” of Finland.
The Archbishop and the city fathers are already planning on the restoration, after all the church has burned 1508, 1571, 1590 and 1708 as well as bombed in 1941, so there is no excuse of not restoring it promptly.
29.06.06 14:42 Update: The Porvoo police have released a statement, that after interviewing witnesses and physical evidence they are investigating the fire as an arson. (Or as the PC term these days goes, aggravated causing of damage). The police are frustrated as their ‘usual suspect’, the disturbed young man who started 14 fires in Porvoo 2004-2005 is in jail even the flower-hatted aunties let him out to barbecue a few trash cans in between…
30.06.06 10:15 Update: The Porvoo police have arrested “more than one person” for interrogations in connection with the fire.
31.06.06 17:30 Update: Police have arrested three people, a woman and two men, aged between 18 and 20 for the intentional fire that severely damaged Porvoo’s Cathedral. They gave themselves up to the police on Monday evening. The three have been arrested on suspicion of aggravated arson. All were under the influence of alcohol at the time of the crime but police have no additional data as to their motive. A decision on their imprisonment will be made on Thursday.
The parishes of Helsinki and Espoo have both upgraded security at churches and cemeteries, especially at night. The move reflects a growing fear of similar arson attacks and increased vandalism to graveyards.
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How many firefighters?
See here in Maryland, the news will say
22 firefighters 22 minutes to put out fire
or
35 firefighters 35 minutes to put out fire
its almost like a Union requirement to let the fire burn time equal the number of firefighters sent.
Comment by winter — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire…
Now let’s wait, when the first fundamentalists blame Lordi for this.
Considering the fire brigade management, in Finland the old joke is “Fire put out in a wrong way”. I think it originates from a paper factory with it’s own fire brigade and if they managed to put out the fire in the factory before the city fire department arrived, the chief of the department always complained, that they did it in a wrong way.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:43 pm
The pictures of the burning and burnt cathedral are truly horrible for anyone to whom the town of Borgå means something. The cathedral is the symbol of the city, I am sure if you asked any person from Borgå to think of an image of their hometown they would immediately think of the red storehouses on the riverfront with the wooden town dominated by the old stone cathedral behind.
It’s very sad. It’s only fortunate that the interior has apparently largely escaped damage according to HBL. I hope that it is restored to its as near to its original as possible.
Comment by JG — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
21 units, 80 firemen, they let the roof burn and concentrated to protect the ceiling from crashing down, because they wanted to use as little amount of water as possible.
Feels really bad.
Comment by Anna-Leena — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
I enjoyed visiting that church, and the city of Porvoo several times. Hope the church is restored quickly.
Comment by Peter — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 2:34 pm
Now let’s wait, when the first fundamentalists blame Lordi for this.
I wouldn’t be suprised if someone religious nut ran his/her mouth about that. It’s starting to get as bad over here as it is in America.
Comment by gopha — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 2:34 pm
So winter, I guess you guys should just send the one then.
The thing about the “old city” one must remember is that the roofs are usually tarred this time of the year, and as some neighbours had to have bucket-chains to save their roofs from catching fire, it is quite fortunate the fire didn’t spread. The vicar said the “small church” - a small wooden one right next t o the cathedral had its roof tarred just the past week… So the elements for a big catastrophe were there.
Comment by Hank W. — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
What is the matter with people? Just a few years ago somebody burnt the Unesco World Heritage church in Petäjävesi. I hope the murals in Porvoo cathedral are intact.
Comment by press — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
Some people just can’t wait to bash the fundamentalists. I’m not saying the fundamentalists are right, but it’s just annoying to always read about how they are going to get furious about something and how stupid they are, even though they hadn’t said anything yet. And it seems that a lot of people enjoy this. Please grow up.
Comment by sieni — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
sieni wrote:
“it’s just annoying to always read about how they are going to get furious about something and how stupid they are”
Oh come on.. Fundamentalists and other crackpots deserve everything they get. People who are seriously suggesting that kids reading Harry Potter books become witches and satan worshippers really do not warrant that much respect. Although every now and then they do provide a good laugh for the rest of us.
Comment by Åboy — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 3:30 pm
Re: 8. Press, I think you mix this up with the burning of the old church in Vammala in the 90s (which has later been rebuilt). The one in Petäjävesi is alive and kicking!
Comment by Moral minority? — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
We were celebrating the birth of my bro’s kid in Vammala, and next day the paper says that old wooden church had burnt down.
… I remember we had a barbeque, I think, but I don,t confess anything.
Comment by issi — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 3:53 pm
Bombed in 1941? Strange, I tought we had peace 1941.
Comment by Finn — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
“Some people just can’t wait to bash the fundamentalists…”
Well, my pleasure in this is more like placing bets in a horse race. I may guess right and win or be wrong and loose. I let the fundamentalists do the running.
That said, was that Tyrvää (Vammala) St. Olaf church arson perpetrated by some fundamentalist, who was pissed off about some archbishop statement on gay people, or was that just wild speculation? I think they caught the perp after couple of years.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
Finn: the peace between the Winter War and the Continuation War (known in Finnish as “välirauhan aika”) lasted until June 1941.
Comment by Helsinkian — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
antti: the Tyrvää arsonist said in court it wasn’t meant against the church or religion:
http://www.vammalanseurakunta.fi/pyhaolavi/tuhopoltto.shtml
I think it’s pure pyromania that inspires many of these arsonists. When choosing a church as the target, maximum publicity for the arson is ensured.
Comment by Helsinkian — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
On some forums, such as the one on the Ilta-Sanomat website, some people already made the connection between this and Lordi’s pyros… When will these people get a clue?
Comment by Ano Nymous — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
For those who can’t read Finnish, this dude goes to the historic Tyrvää church in 1997 to steal some wine, then he gets scared that he left some fingerprints so he sets it on fire as a cover-up of his theft. He hadn’t even found any wine but he stole some books and vessels. Yeah, right. But that was his confession.
Comment by Helsinkian — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:45 pm
So maybe this time one might consider using something else than wood…
Comment by tim73 — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
Fuck this. I hope they catch the fuckers.
Comment by m — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 5:00 pm
yep, it was a sad sight even though I don’t support the ideology of the church or any religious organization. It was just sad to see a beautiful and historically significant building burn.
Hope they catch the fucker(s) who did this.
Comment by Blah — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 5:38 pm
tim73, no chance with the museum wankers…
Comment by Hank W. — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
Why blame fundamentalists only? What about prekariats, I mean those who burned Makasiinit? The Green Party does not like lutheran sate
church either…
I mean, let police do it´s work!
Comment by jormanen — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 6:59 pm
Please grow up.
b-o-o h-o-o
RIP Paul Gleason.
Comment by gopha — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 8:47 pm
There is no excuse for not having cameras. Everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland. I would think the Cathedral right in town would have cameras. How about a security alarm? How about smoke detectors?
Would a camera have stopped this crime? Proably not, but the chance of finding the person(s) would have been greater preventing other fires, provided that the Government had the stomache to actually put them in jail.
What target is next? What about the sailship in Porvoo? What about the Hesburger ship?
My inlaws live near the Tyrvää. I is really nice. I would not be surprised if that church is torched again. By repairing it, you only make it more of a target.
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 9:50 pm
Well, besides building material, wood is classified also as a domestic fuel. For that reason, we can’t boast with 1000 years old buildings. It comes as a part of the deal, that wooden buildings may catch fire and the generation in charge have to rebuild. Even without the fire, the wood will eventually rot, although the type of shingle roof in Porvoo church will last for few hundred years, if built correctly and tarred regularly.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 10:05 pm
Radio Vega said their were smoke detectors inside the cathedral’s interior, but because the vaulting is so solid between that and the roof, it took sometime before they were activated. Maybe they should have some in the roof though also when they restore it.
I agree with Fred Fry though on surveilance cameras. I am quite suprised that there were none at all, as this is an important national historical site as well as being a beautiful building.
Comment by JG — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 2:18 am
21 units, 80 firemen
so then
it took 80 minites to put the fire out? (Union rules no less)
Comment by winter — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 3:01 am
Well, they didn’t think cameras were needed, after all, who would burn the cathedral…
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 3:05 am
Antti (the redneck one) wrote: “Even without the fire, the wood will eventually rot, although the type of shingle roof in Porvoo church will last for few hundred years, if built correctly and tarred regularly.”
How do you know all this stuff. I noticed over the last six months or so that your various postings are interesting and show a wide range of knowledge of various subjects.
Once I remember you said that you were a bus or taxi driver or something. Is that true?
Comment by Peter — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 9:07 am
“A man without memory is like a city without old buildings”. Who I am supposingly quoting I don’t know, or whether it is even exactly as I stated. The point is, though, that every time we lose a historically valuable building, we loose a piece of our common memory. Finland being a country with relatively few really old heritage buildings, makes this fire even more tragic and, if this wasn’t quite enough, it had to be an arson.
Comment by Petteri — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 10:06 am
a wide range of knowledge of various subjects.
You know, Finlanders have the unfair advantage theres always 6 months of darkness left to read unnecessary information. And you have to read, because the TV is so bad, another unfair advantage.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 10:12 am
Well, that particular chip of information was from my brother-in-law. He knows everything about the traditional methods of wood handling and finishing. My wife complains, that these kind of things stick to my head, like a fly on syrup, but I don’t remember, whether the kids have any spare gloves left in kindergarten.
I just paid attention at school, university and conscript service + read the newspapers.
Yes, I was a HKL tramdriver in 1991-1995. I refer to it from time to time, as it was quite an intensive period. Later, I graduated from HU in physics and now I’m designing neat electronic circuits for various companies from IT to pulp&paper and heavy machinery. One just hears and sees quite a lot.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 10:50 am
The Porvoo church burned down because god hates gay people
Comment by Kras — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 11:36 am
“Everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland.”
You Finland bashers are a hilarious bunch, aren’t you. Arson is, of course, a very rare crime in Finland which is a lucky stirike in a country full of wooden sructures, hundreds of, centuries old wooden churches, for example, but never mind so long as you can express your superiority and our inferiority.
Why didn’t they have cameras? Because they are so fucking stupid or because Finland is such peaceful a country that they didn’t come to think of getting them (not as peaceful as your native country, of course, where nobody neveeeer gets drunk or high and even if they do they behave in an orderly manner - but still).
Find a better target for your contempt! Suggestions: suicide rate, concentration camps in East Karelia, withdrawn carachter, welfare state, tango …
And sorry about your wife’s alcohol and hate managment problems, but you shouldn’t think that all Finns are like her, Fred.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:10 pm
First comments from a few fellow Finns when hearing the news (after the sad bit had got through) was the ironic “Wonder if it was an act of god (lightning)” and then “guess the church was too mean to insure the place so they will go around cap in hand to everyone” now saying how poor we state funded church is.
Comment by Hugh Janus — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:18 pm
C’mon, what’s Fred’s wife got to do with this? spendler, Fred wasn’t personally insulting anyone. He was just expressing his opinion. You know this is what Finnpundit is always complaining about, Finns not being able to take contrary opinions and then going over to personal insults…
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:23 pm
Lucky for the church, they had insured it. But no doubt there will be fundraisers…
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:30 pm
@Helsinkian, post 37,
The one positive thing about Finnpundit is that but for the grace of a Lutheran God, he might still be here with us, and on ‘our’ side, defending Finland against any and all criticism with the kind of logic he now uses to attack it.
If only Spendler could also go over to the Dark Side.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:38 pm
Well, Fred’s wife is a Finn, isn’t she? If not, I must apologize. If she is, I shouldn’t we conclude that she shows typical Finnish traits: getting drunk and then burning up things, for example? I was just, sort of, pointing out that when mr Fry makes general assumptions of the Finnish carachter he should understand that his wife is included.
Anyway, what was the contribution in his message you think was worth expressing? Are you really suggesting that “everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland” is valid information? If not, don’t you think that I’m allowed to be a bit frustrated or at least point out the error.
On the other hand, if he said, for instance, that the Finnish suicide rate is about the highest in the western Europe, I would have nothing against it because it’s true.
Do you see the difference?
AS for “Finns not being able to take contrary opinions and then going over to personal insults”, well, I think that the contrary seems to be closer the truth. Quite a few Finns seem to be too polite to correct foreigners even when what they say is incorrect or even an insult.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
jormanen stated previously that “Green party doesn’t like lutheran sate (sic!) church”.
Well, one of the tragedies of this arson is that it makes any serious discussion of the proposal of the Green League for a separation of church and state very difficult. Phil has previously advocated such a separation at this website and I’ve always thought it would be a natural and logical end to a long process.
Whether we’re for or against the separation has nothing to do with this arson. This was an attack against our cultural heritage, a way more serious one than any other arson. Since Porvoo Cathedral was the scene for the Porvoo Diet that established Finland as an autonomous entity within Russia in 1809, we’re not only talking about a building of significance in the history of the church. Porvoo Cathedral will always remain one of the key buildings in the history of Finland.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:46 pm
Fred never said that burning up things is a typical Finnish trait. There’s been a series of church arsons in the USA this very year. Fred’s only point was that having a camera might help in finding the perpetrator. Not that Fred can’t defend himself but I just felt like expressing an opinion to say the insult on him was unwarranted.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:51 pm
Helsinkian, if mr Fry’s only point was that having a camera might help in finding the perpetrator, why do you think then wrote “everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland”. It’s a mystery, I guess, but thanks for interpreting for me what he really means behind the actual words.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 1:04 pm
spendler: you were trying to say that Finland is so peaceful that we have no reason to be afraid of church arsonists. These things happen in Finland and in other countries as well. No-one is completely safe from the wrath of an individual drunk or a psycho. Porvoo had indeed suffered of a series of fourteen arsons (as Hank pointed out in his post) in 2004-2005, the perpetrator of which series is currently in jail.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 1:23 pm
the suicide rate in finland isn’t actually higher than let’s say france. In france they write these suicides as accidents because it’s a somekind of a taboo. for example the usual explanation of the cause of death that the doctors make after the autopsy is something like; He accidentaly slipped and fell thru the open window or he didn’t notice that the gun was loaded and accidentaly shot himself etc etc.
So in short finland is more honest when it comes to statistics about suicide
And this information is based on hearsay made by a friend who is a doctor in france.
Comment by Bla — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
“you were trying to say that Finland is so peaceful that we have no reason to be afraid of church arsonists.”
Where exactly was I trying to say such nonsense?
My point was, as you very well know, that “everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland” is false information because it, among other things, implies that there is either in the Finnish character or society something that produces execptional numbers of drunks or pshycos who like to burn up things - otherwise the “argument” just doesn’t make sense.
What would happen if we replaced Finland with the US? It would still be bullshit, but now, I guess, everybody would readily recognize it as such: “Oh, no, once again an ignorant Finn expressing anti-American ideas”. All the hfbs of this world would tell me to stop learning from American movies what the US is about or worse.
And what was that Finnpundit thing about? What are exactly the similarities between me and him?
I’ve been to the US several times and it’s a fine country in many ways, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue in question.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
the suicide rate in finland isn’t actually higher than let’s say france.
Yeah, I heard the same story - about the Catholic countries in particular. But the Finnish suicide rates are still much higher than in other Scandinavian countries, I guess. They are droipping though, perhaps because less people feel uprooted and have settled in cites after the “mass migration”.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
That sucks.
Comment by giustino — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 3:55 pm
Dear Spendler,
Apologies for not commenting sooner. I was out working.
For your benefit allow me to clarify.
- Yes, my wife is a Finn
- My wife is not an alcoholic
- All Finns are not alcoholics
Concerning:
———–
“Everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland.”
You Finland bashers are a hilarious bunch, aren’t you. Arson is, of course, a very rare crime in Finland which is a lucky stirike in a country full of wooden sructures, hundreds of, centuries old wooden churches, for example, but never mind so long as you can express your superiority and our inferiority.
———–
- I was not bashing Finland. I was merely pointing out a basic fact that in the Cities in Finland, you need to protect everything. I ride the bus here in DC, which is a criminal paradise, but at least I can look out of windows not scratched to hell. Ever been in a public elevator in Helsinki? They have cameras because people use them as bathrooms. That is not bashing. That is the truth. In the US a store window os broken because they are robbing the store. In Helsinki they are broken for stupid pranks. Drive around the city on a Saturday/sunday morning and see all of the overnight glass patches were done. On my last trip, somone broke the huge window in the Carrolls across from Stockmanns. Was someone trying to steal some fries? Countless bus-stop glass panes have been destroyed for fun.
- My comment refered to destruction, not arson. Hijacking planes in the US is a rare crime too.
- There are about 50 Americans for every Finn. So one Finnish arson would relate to 50 in the US considering the same rate of crime. Taking into account 2 high profile arsons recently, I would say that is a lot. Have there been 100 high profile arsons in the US? I think not.
Concerning:
———–
Why didn’t they have cameras? Because they are so fucking stupid or because Finland is such peaceful a country that they didn’t come to think of getting them (not as peaceful as your native country, of course, where nobody neveeeer gets drunk or high and even if they do they behave in an orderly manner - but still).
———–
- Just in case you are not aware, I spent three + years living in Helsinki. Peaceful might be, but you are fooling only yourself if you believe that nothing goes on as my comment above notes.
- The main threats in the US concern those who want to harm for a cause (jihad) or for financial gain (robbery resulting in murder). In Finland the threats come from all sorts of directions. Was the person struck in the head with an axe in the Metro for what purpose?
- I am not sure where you live in Finland. Maybe where you live is as you say.
- Then again, the countryside is not so peaceful either. For those who are not aware lots of finland’s violence is between family.
concerning:
—–
Well, Fred’s wife is a Finn, isn’t she? If not, I must apologize. If she is, I shouldn’t we conclude that she shows typical Finnish traits: getting drunk and then burning up things, for example? I was just, sort of, pointing out that when mr Fry makes general assumptions of the Finnish carachter he should understand that his wife is included.
—–
- I was not aware that a Finnish trait was getting drunk and burning things up.
- Just like in the US, there are different groups, even in Finland. Maybe these generalizations only apply to a certain group, or even age group. Maybe my wife is a Swedish-Finn (she is not). My generalization refers to the class of ’stupid-Finn’ that tends to leave a path of destruction behind them. (The movie Häjyt comes to mind.)
—————–
My point was, as you very well know, that “everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland” is false information because it, among other things, implies that there is either in the Finnish character or society something that produces execptional numbers of drunks or pshycos who like to burn up things - otherwise the “argument” just doesn’t make sense.
—————–
- Yes there is. For starters, Finnish youth are let out on the streets at a younger age. People living in the US are familiar with “It is 10PM. Do you know where your children are?” Well in Finland they are out drinking. 16 year old sitting on the curb with a full case of beer is not something you see in the US. That is a big reason for the vandalism.
- The judicial system is different too. Finns try to understand ‘why’ a crime was committed and many times being drunk is an actual valid excuse.
Concerning:
———–
And sorry about your wife’s alcohol and hate managment problems, but you shouldn’t think that all Finns are like her, Fred.
———–
- Pointing out that my wife is a Finn is valid.
- I am not sure where you are headed with this comment.
- I can lower myself to your level, but I prefer to have those types of conversations in person.
- Once again, my comments are related to living in Finland
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 4:37 pm
Fred, Don’t forget Finland is comparitively a small place compared to the USA. The news agenda is thus significantly smaller, it takes a LOT less to make the national headlines in Finland than in USA.
There are probably equally as awful and random killings as the metro axe-man in the US on a far more regular basis than in Finland. But crime is more common in the USA, so it’s harder for it to make the national top headlines.
I am sure it would not be so hard to find some high-profile arson cases in the USA also. For instance, I believe the US state of Alabama is currently experiencing a church burning arson spree.
I’m not saying Finland or the USA is better, just that unfortunately their are crazy people who need helping everywhere.
I am however glad that the Police have some suspects already. I hope they find who did this and why they did this crime.
I also hope that the restoration can be put under way soon as pictures of Borgå/Porvoo minus the cathedral’s roof are horrible and this is a historic building that deserves to be put back to how it should be.
Comment by JG — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
Fred (this was years ago, though, doesn’t happen every day), I remember one peaceful Saturday morning walking down Vaasankatu in Helsinki. Approximately one meter from where I was walking somebody (who I suspected of being on drugs because it was in a part of town where you’re most likely to meet drug addicts and drunks often break things in a more predictable manner) kicked in a window and immediately disappeared from the scene. I was really surprised. When I read your comment on US-Finnish differences, I thought, had that been America, maybe it would’ve been someone trying to break in. But it was Finland and it was probably either for fun or because there was a grudge against the place the window belonged to.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
JG: here’s an article for you on Ala. church arsons by Patrik Jonsson of the Christian Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0208/p02s01-ussc.html
“According to the Insurance Information Institute, the top reasons for torching a church include the coverup of a burglary, vandalism and revenge. Racism, insurance fraud and thrill-seeking are less common.
In fact, church burnings are common. The nation sees 15 to 20 church arsons every month, scattered from Florida to California. [Editor’s note: the original version misstated the frequency of church burnings in the US.]
Nearly 1,000 churches burned between 1996 and 2000 nationwide, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). Authorities nabbed about 100 suspects, a pace that has only decreased slightly.
Since the summer of 1996, when a spate of racially motivated Alabama church fires drew national attention, investigators are not much closer to knowing what fuels the church arsonist. Confessions range from the hateful to the mundane: In Suffolk County, Va., an 18-year-old pleaded guilty to torching St. Mary’s Catholic Church in October 2005, after stealing a few hot dogs and some sacramental wine in the course of an inebriated evening.”
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 5:25 pm
In the Cities in Finland, you don’t need to protect everything, what on earth are you talking about? Broken windows in downtown Helsinki? Are windows everything? And why don’t they have the US style protection in front of the windows then? And what about the passed-out person at a station who finds his wallet not stolen in the morning? Who protected him? What about cars, street lights and so on. Then again we all know that in the American cities only the criminals dare go outside after dark. Right?
“Finnish youth” is not on the streets drinking, a small minority is. Then again American youth is smoking crack in somebody’s garage. Right?
Being drunk is not “many times an actual valid excuse” (although it occasionally can be under exceptional circumstances).
And so on.
you are fooling only yourself if you believe that nothing goes on as my comment above notes.
Why should I believe in such nonsense? Could it be possible that I meant what I wrote and not something you think I meant? I was commenting this stupidity: “everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual [w]rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland”. Remember? Above you kind of admit that it’s not true but a huge exaggeration. Why not say it out loud?
And sorry about the wife comment. Had I thought it a bit longer I would have come up with a more polite way to stress my point.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 5:47 pm
JG,
Odd things happen in all places. I had said a while back that both Finland and the US are great places to live. Phil might complain, but at the end of the day, he is sleeping in Finland. There are exceptions to every rule.
I have had a knife pointed at me once. It was on Mannerheimkatu on a Saturday afternoon by a vagrant who ever so nicely asked “Do you want to die?” as the them demanded money, in English as he heard me and a friend speaking. The funny thing was that the street was full of people and nobody bothered to do anything even though everyone heard him as he repeated his demands for money. (We were graduating from MBA so we were in suits). I quickly got us out of these because there was no telling what he was willing to do.
I have called the police in a number of other occasions. One that comes to mind was three dunk kids in their 20’s picking on an older guy in a ‘night bus.’ I called the police from the bus because one of them was holding a knife behind his back in case the older guy tried to defend himself. Again nobody else did anything, other than the bus driver who had called the dispatcher. They got off at a stop and I was the only one to talk to the driver making aware that one of them had a weapon. The funniest thing was the reaction of the police. “Yes, yes. Man on bus with knive.” like it was nothing abnormal.
Living in NY I can compare experiences in two places. Surely it is easy enough to find trouble in NY, but it seems (at least to me) that it is easier to run into it in Helsinki. Arson might not be a Finnish ‘thing’ but breaking glass sure is.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
JG: in Alabama they arrested three suspects already in March related to the series of church arsons. Two of them were students at Birmingham Southern College and the third was a student at the University of Alabama-Birmingham. All three are young men and they hadn’t expressed any anti-religious views. They are described as smart, involved in school, fun-loving and interested in theater and music. It was their fun-loving streak that was on display in the church arsons, a college prank that got out of hand:
http://www.nbc13.com/news/7811631/detail.html
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
Spendler,
“In the Cities in Finland, you don’t need to protect everything, what on earth are you talking about? Broken windows in downtown Helsinki? Are windows everything?”
- No, but it is an easy example.
“And why don’t they have the US style protection in front of the windows then?”
- I wonder why Finnish businees don’t use polycarbonate or similar resistant glass. Perhaps it expense related as would putting in steel gates.
“And what about the passed-out person at a station who finds his wallet not stolen in the morning? Who protected him? What about cars, street lights and so on. Then again we all know that in the American cities only the criminals dare go outside after dark. Right?”
- All I can say is that if you have not been here, you should and then you can see the difference. Even at night.
““Finnish youth” is not on the streets drinking, a small minority is. Then again American youth is smoking crack in somebody’s garage. Right?”
- It is a small minority that does these things.
- What about the Somali attacks a while back. That small minority caused lots of havoc and fear.
- I will leave the crack smoking in the garage to the Liberals. They claim that those people are not harming anyone but themselves….
“Why should I believe in such nonsense? Could it be possible that I meant what I wrote and not something you think I meant? I was commenting this stupidity: “everything, including the worthless crap needs to be protected in Finland because nothing escapes the eventual [w]rath of a drunk or psycho in Finland”. Remember? Above you kind of admit that it’s not true but a huge exaggeration. Why not say it out loud?”
- I stand by the statement and also state that it is not an exaggeration. In addition to the window breaking is the graffiti. Then there is the odd practice of pulling the benches out of the ground at Esplanade. Chaining of trash cans at South Harbor to prevent people from throwing them into the harbor. Public unination, vomit and other… All of these activities are done to property that needs to be cleaned up. Helsinki on a sunday morning is normally a mess.
“And sorry about the wife comment. Had I thought it a bit longer I would have come up with a more polite way to stress my point. ”
- Noted. Thanks.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
an 18-year-old pleaded guilty to torching St. Mary’s Catholic Church in October 2005, after stealing a few hot dogs and some sacramental wine in the course of an inebriated evening.
I’m shocked, it wasn’t solely a Finnish trait after all.
Actually I feel a bit sorry for the Americans.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 6:08 pm
That the three students suspected of nine February church arsons in Alabama started it off as a joke, comes from a statement of a witness in the case:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/08/alabama.churches/
It’s kind of funny that they torched only Baptist churches and Southern College where they were studying is affiliated with the United Methodist Church (two of them were students of that college at the time and the third one had transferred from the same college to University of Alabama-Birmingham).
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 6:10 pm
If there are as much violent crime in Finland as in the US if not more as mr Fry convincingly implies above, I wonder why there are about ten times more people in jail in the US (relatively speaking, of course). It must be the efficient police force. Apparently it’s just the arsonists they can’t catch.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 6:35 pm
spendler: don’t forget there was something called Prohibition in Finland between 1919 and 1932.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_alkoholin_kieltolaki
“Korruptio, salakuljetus ja laittomat markkinat aiheuttivat poliisille huomattavan resurssipulan.”
(My transl.: Corruption, smuggling and illegal markets caused a considerable lack of resources for the police.)
See, when alcohol was prohibited even corruption was flourishing in Finland and the police were overstretched.
America of course had the same problem at the same time (Prohibition in Finland ended in 1932, one year before America).
Today the War on Drugs is pushing America into a similar situation as Prohibition used to be. Drugs are simply so common in America that it becomes too hard for the police to enforce the laws and very many people end up in jail.
In Finland, we simply have been lucky and drugs are so far less common here and people are still drinking alcohol in many instances where a citizen of many other countries would be taking something else. So we have plenty of alcohol-related problems in Finland but we don’t have overcrowded prisons because of the prohibition of the people’s drug of choice. Yet it would be interesting to know whether the Porvoo church arsonist was drunk or on something else or perfectly sober.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 6:47 pm
I must say that i find your explanation for the different “drug cultures” a bit wanting. If Finland has been lucky, does it mean that the US has been unlucky?
Anyway, it would be nice to know how the US has been able to produce at least a couple of generations now, who mostly think Marijuan is fine and apprently the harder drugs not so bad either.
Comment by spendler — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 7:14 pm
Mr’s Fred had a couple comments when I discussed this with her:
“The social pressure here (in the US) keeps you from getting totally wasted in public.”
“Many many Finns would be considered alcoholics if they were living in the US drinking like they do now.”
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 12:13 am
54. Yeah, Fred, you really have to realise that the Finns won’t go “mess in other peoples business” because the innocent bystander/hero is the one that ends up in court accused, or in hospital or on the slab. And the bus driver - what is he supposed to do? Call the dispatch, is the only thing he is supposed to do to get backup. His job description does not include “go get beaten up by drunks”.
What you say about calling the police in Helsinki being useless, spot on. As you said the kids leave on a stop and the police still take 1/2 hour to get anywhere…
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 8:59 am
“The social pressure here (in the US) keeps you from getting totally wasted in public.”
That’s of course not true. My guess is that the main difference is that in the US the drunks, other abusers and psychos live in different parts of a city while in Finland they often live among us (the idea is that social unrest is minimized when the anti-social cases are not put in one place) … that was: I _guess_ and the _main difference_. It’s also true, though, that the social norms regarding drinking are somewhat different. And that was: _somewhat_ because the large majority here, of course, behave pretty much the same manner as the large majority of the Americans. These “decent” people tolerate heavy drinking more than their counterparts in the US, that’s true though, as do for instance the Irish or French on average, by the way. On the other hand they would propably regard those Americans who sip wine on meals and have a drink or two after a working day as alcoholics.
But why do so many Finns tolerate heavy drinking? Personally it’s like: “well, that’s his business, who am I to tell him what’s right?”
Comment by Spendler — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 11:12 am
“His job description does not include “go get beaten up by drunks”.”
If you look the “maintenance of order in the public transport act”, (signed by big K himself) the driver can ask help from the other passengers to restore the order and they should help, but as the other passengers are usually quite reluctant for the abovementioned reasons, you just do the zen thing and see, whether the mulquists…errr…challenging customers leave the vehicle at the next stop.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
Why sexism and ageism:”flower-hatted aunties”
Couldn’t find another word?
http://blogisisko2.blogspot.com/2006/
05/seksismi-ja-ikrasismia-kieless_29.html
Comment by Anna Amnell — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 2:52 pm
“54. Yeah, Fred, you really have to realise that the Finns won’t go “mess in other peoples business” because the innocent bystander/hero is the one that ends up in court accused, or in hospital or on the slab. And the bus driver - what is he supposed to do? Call the dispatch, is the only thing he is supposed to do to get backup. His job description does not include “go get beaten up by drunks”. ”
- Actually I was not complaining about the driver. He had contacted the dispatcher already and when I talked to him he had called back to tell the dispatcher where they had gotten off and that one of them did have a knife. The only other think would have been to pull the bus over and get everyone off.
- It is really funny to ‘correct’ someone in English in Finland. Once outside Botta there was a husband and wife on the ground. The husband had his hands buried in his wife’s hair letting go a string of v.t.s’s and satana’s while shaking her head wildly. I went over and in English and told him to stop and let go of her or I would call the police. I then asked her if she was ok and told them to get up. There was probably 100+ people watching, doing nothing. that’s a shame.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 3:03 pm
Anna Amnell: I read the piece on your blog about the expression “flower-hatted aunties”. It’s really funny if true that it used to refer to Finnish-American females coming to visit their old country wearing a type of hat that was uncommon in Finland.
I guess it’s Hank W.’s favorite expression and I suspect he chose it to flaunt that he isn’t “politically correct”. It probably means everybody who doesn’t support a tougher attitude on crime.
I think it’s interesting that “flower-hatted aunties” are often said to be “conservative moralists”. After all, it’s usually the conservatives who have a need to use such an expression to show that they aren’t overly permissive or PC.
I still haven’t found an individual who is permissive on all issues or moralist on all issues. Sure there are extreme libertarians and extreme authoritarians but after scratching the surface, most people tend to be permissive on some issues and not so permissive on others. These labels serve to portray issues in a men vs. women or left vs. right antagonism when the ranks of opponents or supporters of a cultural issue are often much more diverse.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 5:11 pm
65. Anna - interesting comment, but how do you translate “narsissipipo”? Crocusbeanie? The word “kukkahattutäti” I think stems from the character of “Fröken Pruselius” from “Pippi Långstrump” though. She is the epitome of one.
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 5:15 pm
Helsinkian; I use “kukkahattutäti” as a politically correct term of “sosiaalitantta”…
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 5:37 pm
Well, I have heard “Mekko-Einari” being a male counterpart for a flowerhat auntie. We also have “huru-ukko” for a stubborn, coservative old man with 180 degrees phase shift on everything. Hey, they are just words. All 40+ ladies are not flowerhat aunties. A logical continuation for being all-PC is to talk about the dreadful snowperson of Tibet.
I don’t know, whether Anneli Tempakka or Maija Dahlgren wore flowerhats, but they definetely qualify for making big deal about Sex Pistols gig in Finland (which never happened then) or “Rappiolla” (Decaying) piece by Hassisen Kone.
My personal experience of the real flowerhat aunties are actually quite positive. In the 70’s, I was many times seeing my grandma in Helsinki and many times some old, swedish-speaking ladies with huge glasses and a flower hat came to speak with my mom in a bus or tram. Mom spent the wartime in Sweden and speaks fluent swedish, so these ladies thought I was some gulliga lilla Magnus.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
Antti: are you saying that Mekko-Einari is the opposite of huru-ukko?
When there was all this discussion about Lordi and “flower-hatted aunties” being enraged about Finland sending them to Athens, so what do we do with all the male conservatives who said negative things about Lordi? Is such a person then Mekko-Einari or huru-ukko or both?
It’s not at all uncommon that an elderly Finnish male thinks that hard rock or heavy is something negative. I had a very hard time believing that it would be elderly women who were specifically appalled of hard rock being connected with Finland. Then again I guess Eurovision is more of a pastime of elderly women than elderly men, so in this sense the idea of women being affected might even make sense.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 6:16 pm
Well, just the facts that there are far more old ladies than old gents in Finland. Old gents got killed in war, get killed by cancer/heart disease or my favorite reaso, because of the nagging. But if you look at the statistics there aren’t as much huru-ukkos around.
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
And I won’t stop using “flower-hatted auntie” especially if some “kukkahattutäti” comes to tell me to.
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 6:30 pm
Old gents get killed because of the nagging? How about the statistics showing that married people live longer than singles. Old people often die pretty quickly if their husband or wife dies because of the heavy mourning. Some people are even used to nagging at each other and couldn’t live without it.
Sure, the war was there but in a generation or two it won’t affect the statistics any more. Yes it was a big thing for the war generation.
There are more old ladies than old gents, sure. But my guess would be there are disproportionately more of them in cities than in the countryside, since women were more active than men in the big wave of people moving from country to city.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 6:41 pm
I think huru-ukkos have actually high risk of being married to traditional flowerhat aunties, so the male conservatives opposing Lordi are probably huru-ukkos sharing the view of their wives. (Or actually the other way around, as huru-ukkos tend to tell everybody in the family, who they should vote, etc.) Mekko-Einari is probably a male counterpart for the left-wing flowerhat auntie.
Is “narsissipipo” actually any better, as it has reference to a hat, used by rastafaris and people living in cold climate.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 7:04 pm
Suitable punishment for these arsonists should not include jail time.
They should be placed in public for everyone to see and every Porvoolainen should be allowed to walk by them and say exactly what they think.
Public humiliation for such an idiotic act would be suitable in my eyes.
Plus I think they should be involved in the rebuilding efforts as part of a sentence of thousands of hours of community service.
Comment by Shoal — Thu, Jun 1st, 2006 @ 12:29 pm
At the time, when Porvoo church was constructed, one punishment for a minor misconduct in the congregation was tarring the church roof.
I agree Shoal that the arsonists should participate in rebuilding. They proved to have some spine though, as they turned themselves in to the police.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Thu, Jun 1st, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
It would be interesting to know if the Porvoo three have a similar background than the three Alabama church arsonist students. At least they are of the same age group (Alabama arsonists were between 19 and 20, the Porvoo arsonists between 18 and 20). You know, happy and successful kids who party hard and when they really want to have a blast they go torch a church. Maybe some kids (sure, grownups but just barely) don’t know when they’re playing a computer game and when the flames are for real. Maybe they’re not sure if they themselves are for real. Maybe they were having such a hilarious party that they lost the sense of time and space and the following morning they thought “now what have we done?” I’m just speculating but I wonder if they really had a motive apart from daring to do something spectacular after having had too much to drink. One problem may be that the kids just don’t learn that there are some things for which being drunk is no excuse at all.
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, Jun 1st, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
Maybe, just maybe, part of the problem is that their parents never taught them to respect anything.
Why haven’t the press managed to publish these clowns photos on the front pages yet?
How on earth did the police decide that it was OK to let two of them free?
Comment by Fred Fry — Thu, Jun 1st, 2006 @ 3:26 pm
I’d make a guess. One of them took a tarred paintbrush, lit it on fire, tossed it up… OOPS OMG WTF
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 1st, 2006 @ 7:35 pm
[i]How on earth did the police decide that it was OK to let two of them free?[/i]
It is not up to the police to make the decision. They have to go to a judge for a hearing. The judge has the flower hat then.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 1st, 2006 @ 7:37 pm
The judge has the flower hat then.
No. If there’s no reason to believe they will torch another church, flee or destroy evidence or disturb the investigation in any way, they must be released. The actual punishment (a prison sentence, I hope) will be decided later in a court of law.
Comment by mh — Sat, Jun 3rd, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
June thirty-first must have been a great day. Nice that you can foresee so far ahead in the future :o)
mac
Comment by mac — Wed, Jun 7th, 2006 @ 1:15 am