Why Finns binge drink
As discussed in a post below, the French seem to be able to handle their alcohol while some Finns go on a binge and head out in public to cause trouble. It’s only a small percentage of Finns who do this, but all it takes is one drunk assshole in the evening to piss off hundreds of people. And in line with typical leftist thinking, the state treats us as if we’re all drunk assholes but putting a hefty tax on alcohol to try and curb drinking. Head downtown to any Finnish city and you’ll plainly see their efforts have been futile.
So why does this small minority of Finns get plastered and cause trouble downtown while this behavior in France and the U.S. is much less? I think I have a possible answer - During my very first week in Finland in 2002, I witnessed a drunk man at the bus station in Tapiola slowly pull down his pants and take a shit on the pavement in front of dozens of bystanders. I was in shock, and angry. I was eagerly waiting for some concerned citizens to take action and beat the shit out of him whoop his ass. Of course, this didn’t happen, people stood there in disgust and obediently waited for their bus. This angered me even more.
In Baltimore, it doesn’t matter how drunk you were, no one would be crazy enough to shit at the bus station, citizens take enormous pride in their neighborhoods and wouldn’t allow this to happen. I’d suspect a similar thing would happen in Nice, France. However, there’s a lot of drug dealing going on Baltimore city streets while citizens are “allowing” it to happen - but you’d be more crazy to mess some drug dealer on the street than to take a dump on your own block. So basically, no one is dumb enough to get that wasted because you’ll quickly find yourself in the hospital. Oh there’s certainly binge drinking in Baltimore, but people just keep it inside their homes and if they do go out, it seems as if they’re more inclined to keep to themselves.
Helsinki is statstically a *much* safer city than Baltimore, you can pass out at the bus station and in the morning you’ll still find your wallet. You can lurk around harrassing women all night and never find a bruise on your body. You can take shits at bus stations, and have no fear that anyone will even scold you. So people do these things cause they know they can get away with it, the citizens won’t do anything to prevent this and we all know the cops don’t have the resources to handle every single drunk.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying things are handled better in Baltimore. Not by any means. I’m just saying that’s how things are. I think Finns get wasted and cause trouble because they know they can get away with it, they’ll wake up in the morning with nothing worse than a nasty hangover. I think if the Finns took more responsibility in their own neighborhoods, we’d see that minority of nuisances crowding our streets shrink even further.
Phil just might have something here. It wouldn’t hurt implementing some measures against these minority Neanderthals who can and will regularly wreck havoc among the people who are out to have fun. Why is it that we let these sub humans to terrorize us and spoil our enjoyment time and time again. If it is some stupid form of civility, it is totally wasted and misplaced. Oh I know, it should be initiated by the government and untill then lets just keep quiet!
Comment by Petteri — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 10:45 am
During my very first week in Finland in 2002, I witnessed a drunk man at the bus station in Tapiola slowly pull down his pants and take a shit on the pavement in front of dozens of bystanders. I was in shock, and angry. I was eagerly waiting for some concerned citizens to take action and beat the shit out of him whoop his ass. Of course, this didn’t happen, people stood there in disgust and obediently waited for their bus. This angered me even more.
Hmm, Phil, you stood by waiting for concerned citizens to act and when they didn’t act, you ac… sorry… were angered?!? Any Libertarian should then act himself, not wait for the people passivized by the welfare state (or the welfare state itself) to start doing something, right? Or should we have the right to pee and shit anywhere we want..?
OK, Phil is in my opinion partly wrong, partly right. First of all, it’s definitely not only Finland where people drink too much. I’ve lived abroad in a so-called civilized environment where there shouldn’t be any binge drinking but cultured wine sipping, hahaha, let me tell you I saw alcohol consumed in situations I’d find impossible in Finland.
On the other hand, it’s annoying to watch these binge drinkers. Like yesterday evening in the Lordi concert. Most people around me were at least somewhat drunk, concentrating on chatting rather than the music which should have been the reason they came there for, hah? The amount of empty bottles on the square and the surrounding streets was incredible. With a van to put the empty bottles to I would have financed a heavy binge drinking session for myself. Last but not least, on the way home in the crowd we spotted a probably teenage girl with her pants down on the street, with us bystanders just continuing walking with some amused/annoyed looks.
MM
Comment by Moral minority? — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 11:32 am
I’ve never seen defacate in public before but in the UK and US I’ve seen plenty of drunks urinate and no-one says anything. It should hardly come as a surprise that drunk people are not the best citizens. The problem, though, is the drunkenness. Until there is a social stigma about getting drunk in public, you’ll get these problems.
The problem really is that a lot of people really enjoy getting drunk.
Comment by finnsense — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 11:43 am
Well what can you do in a society of sheeps?
Oh, Finns are definitely talented in forever waging the Winter War, but when it comes to resisting any current harmful phenomena - be it drunken assholes, the politicians touting “security” to the extent of having everyone’s phone calls logged, whatever - you can count on little or no public resistance. Nope, we mostly just bend over and say “AAAAAHHH”, and (maybe) privately gripe about it later…
But hey, Finland’s recent history consists of having been bedfellows with (or subjugated to) totalitarian systems like the Csarist Russia, the Third Reich and the Soviet Union, doesn’t it? And taking that into account, is it any wonder that we’re such spineless conformists?
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 11:55 am
MM - I’ve seen this, too, countless times. Especially when you’re a newcomer, you feel it’s not your place to say something and wait to see what the appropriate local response is to someone doing such a gross and disgusting offense in public aside from endagering public health. When, after watching it happen time after time and nobody so much as batting an eye it’s frustrating and aggravating both because there seems to be no help at all for the professional alcoholics and that they are not shamed for their behaviour. Doing nothing at all doesn’t and will never change the problem of downtown Helsinki being one giant public toilet.
Summertime in the parks generally turns them all into public toilets as the kids (and the pros) drink and don’t want to pay the 40 cents for the public toilet or, as in plague park, there is no public toilet nearby and so they all pee around/on the church. I’m often telling parents not to let their kids play in the green area by the dog park because it is basically a toilet though most seem surprisingly unconcerned. Given the frequency of people relieving themselves in my neighbourhood, I’m surprised that cholera hasn’t made a glorious comeback.
The behaviour begins at a young age…both children witnessing drunks and the non-reaction in public ( http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/photos/hanoirocks/hanoi-thedrunkguy.html ) to the highschool kids ( http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/photos/penkkarit06/penkkarit06-pitstop.html ) and it become just a part of the landscape. Presumeably indoor plumbing and the concept of public health issues relating to human waste are not terribly new concepts.
One would think that the tourist bureau and the people fussing over the impending EU presidency would prefer that tourists and visitors not be exposed to this sort of thing and make an initiative for plentiful, free public toilets around the city as well as more bins for litter.
Comment by hfb — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 12:35 pm
Alcohol is used in excess by people who want to escape from something that they don’t like: THEIR LIFE!
Rates of depression, suicide and alcoholism are far too high in Finland. Personally, I don’t blame it on individuals. Its down to the overly conformist stifling nature of Finnish society
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 12:44 pm
“Alcohol is used in excess by people who want to escape from something that they don’t like: THEIR LIFE!”
Nonsense. Alcohol is used in excess largely by people who like the feeling of being drunk. I agree it’s not sophisticated but some of the happiest people I know get drunk every week.
I also don’t find Finnish society stifling at all. In fact it’s very free. Go to the US or UK where telesales people still have to show up in a suit and tie and you’ll see conformist. And how conformist is it, when the government say don’t drink, for everyone to go out and get drunk?
Comment by finnsense — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
Finnsense: where did you get your expertise on the dress code of telesales people in the US or UK. I am just curious.
Comment by Peter — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 1:48 pm
No! Alcohol used in excess is pathetic, sad escapism
Comment by Finnish honesty — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
@ No. 5. Hahaha! Thanks for those links. Reminded me of the Greetings from Helsinki postcards:
http://www.greetings.fi/pages/greetingsa01.htm
Click on the picture to move to the next one.
Comment by XL — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 2:04 pm
Well, technically, if you see someone taking his pants down in public for taking a dump, it is probably too late to stop that person with a lecture on general decency, as he is probably not going to pull his pants up and abort the release of number 1 or 2.
People in the countryside are not shy with their bodily functions, as are not those, who went to army before Elisabet Rehn’s time as the minister of defence. Now rub some higher human mental functions off with the constant alcohol abuse and there you go.
“One would think that the tourist bureau and the people fussing over the impending EU presidency would prefer that tourists and visitors not be exposed to this sort of thing…”
Heh, In good old Kekkoslovakia they actually fussed big time for the conference for European security and co-operation (CSCE) in 1975. Helsinki winos were collected and deported to some island to be out of the sight for the time of conference. They were given also obsolete but tidy clothes from the HKL depo, some of you may remember those light blue shirts, filled with white HKL logos, so the city seemed to host an AA convention for the ex-public transport drivers some time after the CSCE.
But you know, there are these human rights people and all kinds of ecohippies today making big noise if someone tries to cut the corners the old way
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
The French actually binge drink much more often than the Finns. Of course this information comes from an international study, not a few days in Nice, so it’s propably considered worthless.
And could somebody please tell how the stfling nature of Finland expresses itself. As Finnsese more or less put it, the problems often seems to be the lack of social norms not not their abundance. Most Finns have been living in cities - or rather in those ugly concrete suburbs - only for a couple of decades so no wonder there is too little “stiffness”, rules for social behavior etc.
And before I’m called a knee-jerk reactionary or whatever, here comes the regular disclaimer: nope, the Finnish society, not to mention the drinking habits, are far from perfect (and of course much worse than in Baltimore where nobody has ever pooped in public, not even the drug-abusing homeless people. And this is a fact because I once was there for two days and couldn’t observe it).
And, by the way, the youth unemployment is nowhere near 20%. Of course this information comes from the Finnish authoroties who are, as we all know, corrupted, so it’s propably considered worthless.
Comment by spendler — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
Antti - People in the countryside are not shy with their bodily functions, as are not those, who went to army before Elisabet Rehn’s time as the minister of defence. Now rub some higher human mental functions off with the constant alcohol abuse and there you go.
But this is downtown, not a forest, and I’m not sure how the brochures proclaiming Finland the ‘information society’ works with the barnyard behaviour. You don’t get to boast about how high-tech you are and then make excuses for ultra-low-tech customs by saying that you just dropped in from the trees and toilets are still too new fangled. Is Finland home to the ‘missing link’?
Personally, I wouldn’t be opposed to the rounding up of the professional drunks and putting them in detox and work programs considering the harm they do to themselves and the general quality of life around the city. Although I would be happy just to see abundant free public toilets around town as it’s a lot easier to upbraid someone behaving like an animal when they have options for civilised behaviour which they don’t have at present.
Comment by hfb — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 5:25 pm
But this is downtown, not a forest, and I’m not sure how the brochures proclaiming Finland the ‘information society’ works with the barnyard behaviour.
“What will they think of us?” You’re turning Finnish! Now it’s time to move back to the States before you pass the point of no return.
You don’t get to boast about how high-tech you are and then make excuses for ultra-low-tech customs by saying that you just dropped in from the trees and toilets are still too new fangled.
But this is actually the way things are. A few mobile phones or a new OS don’t change the fact that the majority of Finns are straight out of the woods.
Personally, I wouldn’t be opposed to the rounding up of the professional drunks and putting them in detox and work programs
They are doing that already, at least with drunk drivers. Personally, I find it a waste of money. I don’t know how it is with alcohol treatment, but with illegal drugs I find crying for forced treatment highly hypocritical as there is not enough quality (i.e. medical) treatment available to even those who are motivated.
Although I would be happy just to see abundant free public toilets around town
Yeah, that would definitely be an improvement. It helped in Amsterdam.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 8:38 pm
“But this is downtown, not a forest, and I’m not sure how the brochures proclaiming Finland the ‘information society’ works with the barnyard behaviour.”
Well, another undercurrent in the finnish society is what kind of picture the elite is painting of the finnish people and how the people fit into that picture. The nationalist project started in the 19th. century. First, the finnish language had to be released from the kitchen and the servant’s quarters to the literature, theater and the science. Lönnrot et al. did a great job. As a result you have “Sähkö”, not “elektrisiteetti” and “ongelma”, not “probleemi”. At the same time, however the picture of the nation was some kind of virtuous, hardworking, sauna-clean Kalevala people.
Enter Aleksis Kivi and his “Seven brothers” -novel with bunch of barnyard brothers, who first don’t learn to read and escape the disgrace by moving deep into forest. (Later they return successfully to the civilization after burning down their house and sauna in christmas while boozing.) Kivi’s realistic picture picture was too much for the elite and he was practically crucified. One explanation for the finnish drinking habits has been this rebellion against the elite’s picture, but I don’t know, how well it is working as the habits are probably older, than the elite with it’s pictures. It fits perfectly to the finnish mindset though, as nothing is more fun, than a bunch of fine people, who don’t have it their way, despite of their great plans.
Once I was waiting for the bus here in Oulu at -20C and heck of a wind from the sea. One drunk came to me and said, that the weather is such, that he wants to punch everybody in the face. (He didn’t.) I guess you can make the same statement by pooping in public.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
Hi,
I`m very sorry that some people here in Finland can`t behave. Last summer I had couple friends from UK to visit. We went to Suomenlinna and there was three “ladys” very drunk and still drinking more. Only word they said was v***u. Only thing I said to my friens “I`m sorry” and I as very ashamed.
I have a friend, he moved to USA for over 30 years ago. He was in Helsinki this year for 2 weeks. When he got home, he was happy… For not living here
Have a nice summer
Comment by Sari — Sat, May 27th, 2006 @ 9:27 pm
This sounds like a contest, Finns worst drunks ever. Agreed there is a lot of bad behaviour with drunks here but i have seen same amount in England Ireland Australia and New Zealand.I cannot understand why people here are trying to say this is a finnish problem when it happens everywhere. Maybe spending a package holiday in a country dos`nt qualify you to comment on that country, for some mad reason the tourist spot your holed up in your 5 star hotel might not represent the whole picture.
Comment by sppuuddy — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 12:59 am
I actually red all the comments, and to me it boiled down to the quite simple solution (since there is no changing these “piss bags”); GET MORE FREE TOILETS!
Comment by Petteri — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 1:48 am
Antti - Interesting as I hadn’t thought about Kivi and the general literature. Is there really that much distinction between the so-called Swedish elite and the Finnish proles these days? It’s funny how time often fails to make such old feuds irrelevant, much like how the confederate southerners in the US continue to keep the Civil War alive and that, too, was a battle between the hicks in the sticks and the Yankee elite. In the more modern version we have the religious right vs. the godless educated liberals and, well, we can see how well that works out for everyone. Being contrarian and ornery in spite of yourself isn’t always the best plan. It explains, but doesn’t excuse, quite a bit.
sppuuddy - It’s strange how any sort of criticism about Finland somehow winds up being a battle of statistics and comparisons to elsewhere. I think just about anywhere else had the issue of drunks peeing, pooping, vomiting, etc. in public areas being a nuisance and threat to public health been raised few would disagree that it is a problem worth addressing without resorting to irrelevant comparisons. I suppose this relates to the point Antti makes above that such ideas will be met with resistance if only because it sounds elitist. I live in one of the more posh parts of downtown and I see one or more of the above sorts of behaviour each and every day in the warmer months which makes me wonder just how much worse it is in the shabby more ‘ghetto’ parts of town.
Freeridin’ - If the city can spend 60,000 euro on an bunch of blocks of ice as a ’sculpture’ in the middle of summer which lasts less than two days, I’m sure they can find some cash to spend on public sanitation and substance abuse. Perhaps the paradox is that if they get these people off the juice, they’ll have less money to spend.
Comment by hfb — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
I think the American civil war parallel hits right on target. Surely the differences between different groups in the finnish society have very much waned, but you can still see the remains of the trenches, if you look close enough. Had Aleksis Kivi lived up to 1930’s (He would have been in his 80’s.), he would have got duly recognition for his works, but you can discover similar national “picture clash” again in the 50’s, when the popular “rillumarei” culture was drawing people away from the elite’s mold. Later, the music and the movies of that era were rehabilitated by Peter von Bagh et al. to an extent you think you have a multilayered, multifaceted, deeply humanistic experience, while wathing “Pekka and Pätkä as negroes”
I think Lordi’s victory in ESC is the latest one in this series, as some elitist “expert jury” in YLE would have probably sent in some awful piece of scheisse once again.
Returning back to the ground, I agree with Petteri’s solution to the original problem. More free toilets and mark them so that you figure them out as free toilets, even with your reptilian part of the brain working only.
OK, this drunks pooping in public is one side of the postcard, but maybe the other side is some people being real naturkinder. In one small village, one country house patron and matron could strip butt naked in front of everyone and take a cool dip in the nearby river after a hot day on the hayfield with such an innocence, you could have let them attend the sunday service in their birthday suits.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
“I have a friend, he moved to USA for over 30 years ago. He was in Helsinki this year for 2 weeks. When he got home, he was happy… For not living here
Have a nice summer 
”
Oh shut up, there are plenty of really bad places in the US, where you might get yourself KILLED. So a couple of ladies getting drunk is absolutely nothing compared to that violent gangland hell going on in the US major cities.
Comment by tim73 — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
hfb:
I live in one of the more posh parts of downtown
Punavuori isn’t “posh”, it’s trendy and overvalued. It’s the most bohemian place downtown on that side of the bridge. (Rather than tracks, we have the Pitkäsilta in Helsinki). If the prices stay as ridiculous, it might eventually be completely gentrified, but it’ll still take a couple of decades.
Even if you live in Eira, you’ll have to take a walk through the ‘hood to get to the dog park.
which makes me wonder just how much worse it is in the shabby more ‘ghetto’ parts of town.
I recommend a field trip to Myllypuro or Kontula. If you take the metro to Kontula and have to take the lift, take the one facing west, especially on a warm day.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 5:48 pm
Talking about the Punavuori neighborhood, do they still have that bumshelter on Pursimiehenkatu? That might explain their occurrence in the area. Many mornings I drove some of those hard-working taxpayers (their own term) to their workplaces in Hakaniemi with 1A.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
Talking about the Punavuori neighborhood, do they still have that bumshelter on Pursimiehenkatu?
Yes, I believe it is still there. Officially it’s a “matkustajakoti”, i.e. “travellers’ home”. Guess it’s mostly “travelling without moving” or as the Fab 4 put it:
Without going out of my door
I can know all things of earth
Without looking out of my window
I could know the ways of heaven
The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows
Without going out of my door
You can know all things of earth
With out looking out of my window
You could know the ways of heaven
The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows
Arrive without travelling
See all without looking
Do all without doing
There’s also a needle exchange in Hernesaari and I believe some kind of housing for drug addicts on Iso-Roba. There also was an A-klinikka on the corner of Freda and Iso-Roba, but I don’t know if it’s still there. These will attract some of the more interesting elements of society to the area, regardless of the 5000€/m2 RE prices.
Of course, not even überposh Eira is bum-free. The Kukkapuisto (behind the kiosk in the corner of Tehtaankatu and Laivurinkatu) bums are legendary. They tend to be an easy-going bunch and rarely venture outside the park, however.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Tim73 - It would be interesting to find out how many Finnish expats, particularly successful ones, emigrate to places like the US and who never return to Finland to live. I’m sure Linus is dodging bullets daily
And Punavuori isn’t posh…who are the elistists now? Y’all cling to the idea you are homespun country folk but Punavuori ain’t good ‘nough?
I was simply referring to the fact that it’s in the center and reasonably well maintained due to the concentration of tourists from the cruise ships. It’s no Tuxedo Park, but it’s not bad, even by Finnish standards.
There’s also a nut house nearby that must let people out on a day pass around here, too, as sometimes the dog will go bonkers over a few clearly sober, but ‘not quite right’ people who are walking together.
Comment by hfb — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 8:36 pm
In Baltimore, it doesn’t matter how drunk you were, no one would be crazy enough to shit at the bus station, citizens take enormous pride in their neighborhoods and wouldn’t allow this to happen. I’d suspect a similar thing would happen in Nice, France.
This made me laugh out loud.
I have never seen so many untidy, smelly, defecating, and disorderly people as I did in Paris. I lived in two very different neighborhoods, one of which was trendy and youthful, the other one working class and run-down. Both had homeless people in their sleeping bags left and right and all of the human and animal feces that I had to avoid almost turned me into an olympic hurdler. Metro stations often reaked of piss and vomit, and there was always some drug addict or homeless person making noise in the metro wagons. Yet nobody seemed to mind. I once saw a homeless lady pull down her pants and take a leak right in the middle of the metro station and people just looked the other way. Of course this type of behavior could not to be witnessed in the tourist-laden downtown, but that is not where the real Paris lies.
This does not mean that I accept this kind of behavior. It ticks me off to no end and I find it absolutely revolting. I get really aggressive at bumbling drunkards or druggies who cannot even stand straight, I find them irresponsible and utterly ridiculous. If you absolutely must mess your head up so badly that you cannot even take responsibility of your bodily functions, don’t make the rest of us suffer for it!
Comment by Anzi — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 9:38 pm
I rarely see this kind of thing in Tampere. Maybe this is just a problem in Helsinki?
Comment by m — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 9:56 pm
hfb:
And Punavuori isn’t posh…who are the elistists now? Y’all cling to the idea you are homespun country folk but Punavuori ain’t good ‘nough?
I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying that there are less bums just about anywhere else downtown, with the exception of Hakaniemi and Kallio. Try Kruununhaka close to the seaside, for example. As the market is completely upside down, it’s even cheaper than Punavuori.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 10:14 pm
I have never seen so many untidy, smelly, defecating, and disorderly people as I did in Paris.
Please, you’re spoiling the SM party.
Comment by spendler — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 10:20 pm
I think Finns get wasted and cause trouble because they know they can get away with it, they’ll wake up in the morning with nothing worse than a nasty hangover.
I very much agree with this statement. I do think that drunken behavior is way too tolerated in Finland. It is very unfortunate how many Finns still regard alcohol as only as a means to get plastered.
Please, you’re spoiling the SM party.
I know, I’m sorry. It’s horrible when people come up with counter-arguments based on personal experience, isn’t it?
Comment by Anzi — Sun, May 28th, 2006 @ 10:42 pm
Phil:
“I witnessed a drunk man at the bus station in Tapiola slowly pull down his pants and take a shit on the pavement in front of dozens of bystanders.”
The best I ever saw was a drunken old man peeing in the middle of a crowded street (in Seinäjoki) at the busiest hour of the day. My grandfather, who used to be a cop in the city, said that that’s what the guy has been doing for the past decades:)
Comment by Mikko Sandt — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:00 am
I know, I’m sorry. It’s horrible when people come up with counter-arguments based on personal experience, isn’t it?
Yeah, it sure is, and don’t worry, I got the irony (although it didn’t really hit the target because I tried earlier to refer to an international study regarding the issue in question).
But, anyway, take a person who sees a pooping loony and makes that almost like a symbol of a whole nation. And what about the idea that the rest of the world would be appalled when visiting Finland, with the boozing and all? Surely we all know that’s true, after all, we are unique! And do you really think you are not capable of thinking freely because you went through the Finnish educational system, as hfb told us? And so on.
And to this bigotry you folks kind of just nod in agreement.
I’m not keen on national sterotyping, but what should I make of the meek response to these claims? Are we a nation of sheeps - having been bullied around for centuries we now happily serve as door mats for anybody?
Well, who cares. My kids both go to an English school…
Comment by spendler — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 2:11 am
I see your point spendler. It is true that it seems to be the popular viewpoint that a Finn who doesn’t take all of the stereotyping and downright bigotry lying down is a nationalistic freak, but anybody else reacting in the same way in the same type of situation is just a “proud citizen”.
Again, I am not condoning drunken and disorderly behavior, but please do not expect me to believe the “Finland only” -horseshit.
Comment by Anzi — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 8:30 am
hfb is quite right on the public toilets etc., but I guess the logic still is that ‘if we put in more garbage cans, we’ll have to pay someone to empty them’ (an actual reason given by some city of Helsinki type years ago for not having more garbage cans in public places).
If anyone has any ideas on how to restore social controls (which we used to have), I’d love to hear them.
Nowadays, people just mind their own business. They’ve neither the right nor the duty to interfere. And the authorities are understaffed and unmotivated. (The cops used to interfere plenty, when they still had the powers to put you in a cell for 17 days before they even had to charge you. But I suppose Phil wouldn’t like that either. He did not, IIRC, praise the Helsinki Traffic for cracking down on drunks etc. in public transport.)
Comment by prince of dorkness — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 10:35 am
What a bunch of elitist fancyasses here. You guys probably would party right next to dying human being in the streets and critize that how he/she is smelling and ruining the party. Beautiful minds at work, do not bother asking for help.
Comment by tim73 — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 11:05 am
Tell me if I’m going too far but my theory is that hfb has been living a priviledged life in the States, a life in a middle-class neighborhood safely away from the slums. Now, for the first time, she has to live in a place where the drunks and “crazy people” live among the “decent folks”. It’s a shock, of course; they don’t look nice - nor smell. (Helsinki is indeed an exceptional place even in the European context according to an international study. Even in Stockholm “anti-social” elements live a much more separated life in the suburbs. Not to mention the American cities - but at least they don’t poop in public there, as we have been told.)
And, oh, Anzi, I agree, something strange seems to be going on. Is it the low self-esteem that makes some Finns defend our “honor” to the extreme and others bow down before any bigot and take the slashes in the “yes, massa” style?
Finland is a pretty nice place, not perfect by any means, but pretty nice. If only the summer would finally come …
Comment by spendler — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 11:15 am
Tim73 - Well, considering the dude who fell unconscious in the street onto his glasses giving himself two really ugly matching shiners and a big gnarly purple gash on his face was back in the grocery a day later buying 2 twelve packs it would seem there is little help to be had for these people, even when it’s clearly needed. In fact, YLE had a news blurb this morning on how alcohol-induced dementia in the young is becoming a problem and how, overall, these problems simply aren’t getting treatment - http://www.yle.fi/news/id35227.html
Prince of Dorkeness - Aside from more rubbish bins and free toilets, I would guess a campaign of reverse psychology might be a good place to start given the contrarian explanation. I was personally thrilled about the public transport campaign and hope they continue to enforce it. With all the tax money, you’d think that funding for something as basic as rubbish collection would be a guarantee. Don’t journalists ever do investigative reporting to find out just where all the money goes?
Anzi - Every city has a ghetto but I suppose the odd part here is that the ghetto comes to live even in the nicer parts of town. My husband initially got pissy when I sent him the url for the greetings.fi website with the postcards, many of which were taken in our neighbourhood and replied that we “live in a ghetto.” The truth hurts, especially the truths that you either deliberately or unknowingly avoid seeing.
Comment by hfb — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 11:32 am
hfb - As a born and bred helsinkian, I do not consider Punavuori to be a nicer part of town. It’s more overpriced getto chic than anything. The difference between Kruununhaka, Katajanokka or even my own native Etu-Töölö is very visible. During my parents’ childhood and youth, Punavuori was a very rough, working class neighborhood where the criminal element was high. No amount of trendy cafés and overpriced apartments can change that.
I lived and worked in Punavuori for two summers and have quite a few friends who live in the area, so I am very aware of the truth and reality there. In Paris I worked in an upper middle class suburb, and even there the metro stations there reaked of piss and vomit and came with their token homeless people.
Comment by Anzi — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
Anzi - Well, most of downtown is a slum if you take into consideration the number of bums and the amount of rubbish and broken glass on any given day. All the real estate in Helsinki and Espoo is largely overpriced so I don’t know that property value has any bearing on that either. Still, I’d say a majority of the tourists come through this part of town, especially Bulevardi, and I don’t understand why this doesn’t appear to be a problem worthy of more attention both by the citizens and the government.
Comment by hfb — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 12:41 pm
One of the first things that I noticed when I got back was how clean and neat Helsinki is.
But you’re right, the bums are disguting and should be taken care of better. I guess we’re just too used to our “puistosedät”, most of whom are actually very mellow and keep to themselves, to really notice.
Comment by Anzi — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
Anzi - Wow…is Paris that dirty these days?
Comment by hfb — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
“Why do Finns binge drink?”
I don’t think the reasons are so complicated.
For a good part of the year, Finland is cold, gray and dark and depressing. Drinking for a short time makes one forget the climate.
Furthermore, Finns surround themselves with walls, and social interaction is limited. Drinking helps break these walls down.
Despite the many good things about it, Finland is a generally boring place (partly due to the climate and partly due to the small population, and the taciturn nature of Finns). And since people’s disposable income is relatively low in Finland, activity like going out for a nice restaurant meal on Saturday night and other social diversions etc. are not an option for alot of the population.
And drinking has a social status, of sorts, and is acceptable as a part of Finnish culture. For example, ýou can always get a laugh about drinking while joking around with a Finn. Getting drunk is not always considered a disgusting activity.
Comment by Peter — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:19 pm
“During my parents’ childhood and youth, Punavuori was a very rough working class neighborhood…”
I know some old country hicks, who visited sometimes in Helsinki and while on the run from the matriarchy back home, were asking directions to Punavuori right at the railway station. At that time, Punavuori was the place to get an unofficial bottle and other b-things.
Hmmm, do we actually have any real ghettos here. OK, if you set the reference to some pleasantville, designed by architects Disney & Orwell, everything looks like a ghetto, but I guess the lack of the no-go zones even for the police and drive-by shootings etc. is still painfully eating the self-image of the little east Helsinki gangstas.
I was living in Koivukylä and Malmi, when people living in the center considered them as dreadful hellholes, but really, only nuisances I remember was Ilpo Larha robbing the bank in Koivukylä and the racially motivated window breakings and trash shed arsons in Malmi. However, I was never afraid of walking back home in the middle of the night, sometimes even with the driver’s cash bag.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
@tim73,
I’m not intolerant of just crapping in public, I also hate people who drive like they’re training to be suicide bombers. A real Nazi control freak, me.
In the real world, actions do have consequences.
I know a house in Kallio where they are considering taking action against the City of Helsinki because the city dumps its most horrible social rejects there.
Every time they manage to evict one, the city gives the flat to another one. OK, they gotta live somewhere, but so do ordinary people. Nothing elitist about wanting to sleep at night, is there? (Unless having a job or studying is elitist.) So what do we do? Defend the right of every idiot to behave like a total jerk, or the right of most people to live in relative peace?
Comment by prince of dorkness — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:30 pm
hfb, if you ever had been to Paris you’d know that it’s one of those “low-maintenance cities”, not as bad as most American cities of course, but still. Sorry to break you illusion.
Comment by spendler — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:37 pm
“OK, if you set the reference to some pleasantville, designed by architects Disney & Orwell, everything looks like a ghetto, but I guess the lack of the no-go zones even for the police and drive-by shootings etc. is still painfully eating the self-image of the little east Helsinki gangstas.”
That’s pretty brilliant (said he, taking aother beer while listening to Neil Young’s newest. “Soon I’ll take a poop in the city”, he thought, “just the celebrate the vacation”.)
If the gangstas are indeed sissies they know which way to head. Tony rules!
Comment by spendler — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
I’ve been to Paris….where I seem to remember them washing the streets every morning mostly because the French have an aversion to picking up after their dogs.
And, Spendler, maybe you should get a job and stop watching all those movies where you get your ideas about America.
Again, I find it immensely frustrating and bizarre that finding Helsinki dirty and gross due to the trash and bums is constantly rebuffed with some other EU or American city that has no relevance. Yes, I’m a woman of privledge as I prefer not to associate with people who poop in public nor surround myself with broken beer bottles and other trash, especially in a place that takes close to 60% of my wages presumeably to keep the city clean and care for its citizens.
Prince of Dorkness - I’ve been contemplating putting oil-based paint in a squirt gun and spraying cars who never stop for people in the cross walk. It’ll need constant refilling.
Comment by hfb — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
I think that our society has taken so big part of taking care of people’s problems that it has actually alienated ordenary people from taking responsibility in everyday situations. I guess everybody’s thinking here in Finland that police or someone else will take action and throw bad-doers to jail.
Comment by Satusetä — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
I’ve been to Paris….where I seem to remember them washing the streets every morning mostly because the French have an aversion to picking up after their dogs.
No, I believe it is mostly to keep the air breathable after traffic. Few French poodles poop in the middle of the Champs-Elysées and live to yap about it. I only wish they’d wash the parks as well.
Did you by any chance leave Ile de la Cité at any moment? Even a train to Versailles introduces you to quite different standards of cleanliness. I can only imagine what it’s like in the banlieus. My own experience of living in Mantes-la-Jolie is clouded by nearly 30 years and things have probably changed since then.
Again, I find it immensely frustrating and bizarre that finding Helsinki dirty and gross due to the trash and bums is constantly rebuffed with some other EU or American city that has no relevance.
Since it is not financially feasible to maintain silicon clean room or OR standards in the entire city, you have to compare it to something to keep perspective. While Helsinki is definitely not the cleanest city in Europe (anyone who believes that needs a reality check), it is still among the cleanest.
especially in a place that takes close to 60% of my wages presumeably to keep the city clean and care for its citizens.
Are you making 7 figures or did you include VAT in that?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
“maybe you should get a job and stop watching all those movies where you get your ideas about America.”
I’ve been to “America” (you meant the USA, of course, but being an arrogant and ignorant American you are, you don’t even notice the difference) and there they washed not only the streets but the buildings, too - twice a day. And why should I get a job when my vacation just started?
Just a minute … Isn’t the vacation meant for pleasure? What the hell am I doing here discussing with you? Yoy’re not even interesting. I’m off, our sauna by the sea is waiting. See you, or better still, let’s not see.
Comment by spendler — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 7:23 pm
Antti:
At that time, Punavuori was the place to get an unofficial bottle and other b-things.
When I was living in Punavuori 6 years ago, there was an establishment across the street where gentlemen could apparently get these other b-things, among other services. This judging from the continuous stream of taxis and other activity at night. Posh? I don’t know, perhaps one of the Tatjanas bore some resemblance to Mrs. Beckham.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 7:33 pm
Spindlier said: “I’ve been to “America†(you meant the USA, of course, but being an arrogant and ignorant American you are, you don’t even notice the difference)”
Spindler, you surely don’t mean ignorant “American”. You probably meant USAlainen.”
Incidentally, hfb sometimes offers insightful views of Finland and, eh, USA.
Spindler, you simply insult and talk rubbish.
Comment by Peter — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 8:19 pm
hfb insightful
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 8:35 pm
I do think that hfb is insightful. There’s no need for slander and badmouthing. Please at least attempt to behave and keep the conversation civil, ok?
Comment by Anzi — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 8:50 pm
What’s Baltimore jack in Springsteen’s song Hungry Heart, by the way?
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, May 29th, 2006 @ 11:14 pm
@hfb,
spraying paint is hard to explain away if you’re caught.
I’ve thought about using a Nerdic walking stick,
a big spike-headed umbrella or other suitable object to signal my intent to cross. No my fault if someone drives into it.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 9:50 am
So what did Elizabeth Rehn “wrong” do that has managed to evade my Centre Party indocrinated head
Comment by Hugh Janus — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 10:04 am
It is remarkable that Finland has a shortage of “free” WCs… and it does annoy when many shops think you will pay to pee. But I guess many people have abused the facilities as well.. plus the domestic “screw the customer even more” mantra comes into play, whilst they waste more money on “employee team building” by handing out bullshit trinkets every so often.
Comment by Hugh Janus — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 10:43 am
“So what did Elizabeth Rehn “wrong” do…”
She ordered booths to be built in the army barracks lavatories. Before there was just a long row of porcelain of IDO 59 -variety and so everybody was practically pooping in public, while conscripted.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 11:20 am
freeridin’ - I did include VAT, but rounded down
And I’m not necessarily looking for ‘clean room’ standards, it is a worthy question when countries with much lower taxation seem to keep their cities as clean, if not moreso. Perhaps I just don’t understand the sort of attitude that just ‘good enough’ or the bare minimum is as good as it gets, especially these days when so many points in the public system, such as healthcare and substance abuse treatment, are being reported in the news as mediocre. Things can and should be done better, why is it so offensive to suggest that and want that? Why aren’t people demanding the city and the state do a better job with their money and reporting? I try to keep up with the HS everyday, but maybe I’ve missed the hard-hitting journalism that asks where all the money goes and why. I don’t mind paying taxes, but it does bother me that my neighbourhood in this tiny city is a giant public toilet filled with drunks and druggies that the city seems to ignore.
prince of dorkness - yeah, but I can dream, can’t I? Every time I nearly get run over by some asshole wannabe rally racer in a hurry in a city the size of a postage stamp it really gives me the urge to do damage. I heard a story the other day in the dog park that a friend of one of the regulars had her dog run over by a taxi driver in a crosswalk. The driver never apologized and has been showing up at their house daily demanding payment for the damage to his front bumper. Maybe it’s because they’re foreigners but, man, that’s pretty unbelieveable.
And, I don’t know that I’m insightful, especially with an issue that I have a personal interest in such as this, but yes, Spendler has a burr up his arse for me in particular for some reason. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.
Comment by hfb — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 11:30 am
“What’s Baltimore jack in Springsteen’s song Hungry Heart, by the way?”
“Got a wife and kids in Baltimore, Jack” is the first line of the Springsteen song from the double album The River. The line “Got a wife and kids in Baltimore” is addressed to a guy named Jack. Bruce Springsteen wrote the song Hungry Heart with the Ramones in mind but in the end decided to keep it for his own album. He had had no top ten hits before Hungry Heart and maybe one reason for the song becoming his first such hit is that it was simply supposed to be a catchy Ramones tune, not a serious Springsteen song.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 11:53 am
One more Hungry Heart tidbit for Anonymous: since Born to Run is such a hugely famous song, many people assume it to have been a top ten hit (the single peaked at #23 in 1975).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Springsteen_discography
Hungry Heart was Springsteen’s first top ten single on the Billboard chart (peaking at #5) but if we talk about his albums being hits as well (not just singles like Hungry Heart), then of course Bruce Springsteen had had top ten Billboard Album Chart positions with Born to Run (#3) and Darkness on the Edge of Town (#5) before The River, which happened to be his first US number one album.
Comment by Helsinkian — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:04 pm
“the sort of attitude that just ‘good enough’ or the bare minimum is as good as it gets”
Bingo. There’s no question we could run things even worse than we do now, so why the insistence we couldn’t do any better? Even Phil once praised the way the YTV runs its garbage collection. We could easily bring that down to the usual standards by getting rid of the regular bidding for new contracts and the punitive effect of customer complaints on service providers’ bonuses.
The lack of investigative journalism? It’s a small country. You’ll be living with these people for a long time. Do you really want to make enemies? Some little rag like ‘Voima’ could maybe decide the hell with making nice but to get something like ‘the Private Eye’ you’d need talent plus the rest of the press corps feeding you all the stories they weren’t allowed to print.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 12:26 pm
prince of dorkness - True, Helsinki is particularly small and everyone does seem related to each other in some way with a max of 2 degrees of separation, but does investigative journalism that asks questions that should be asked inherently enemy making? If the population of Finland is generally unfriendly or indifferent to each other ( as has been suggested before as a reason foreigners find it difficult socially here ) what’s the problem with pissing off a few potentially corrupt people? Hmmm…the thought of so many turning a blind eye to things because of potential near relations or not wanting to be deemed a troublemaker is somehow deeply depressing.
Comment by hfb — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
Oh, and for the Springsteen guys…Jack is Jack Daniels
Comment by hfb — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
I remember some two drunks on a bus, and they wanted to talk in a full morning bus to a couple from Philadelphia. The hoeboe spoke fluent english and new a lot about culture and what have you, everybody have fun. So even though people are drunk, they’re still civilized
(and this doesn’t apply for everyone, hell no - thought it just be a funny pointer 
Where else in the world can you find someone drunk in a 3 promille hangover that knows who Catherine Deneuve is, really ? 
Comment by Keksi — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 10:39 pm
7. The reason you take the ferry to Stockholm or Tallinn is:
a. duty free vodka
b. duty free beer
c. to party heartily…no need to get off the boat in Stockholm or Tallinn, just turn around and do it again on the way back to Finland.
Finns are only mid-way up the European league table in terms of per capita alcohol consumption (6.7 litres per head of 100% alcohol a year, by comparison with the boozy sods in Luxemburg or France who drink nearly twice as much). However, the Finns are the Maurice Greens and Michael Johnsons of the drinking sport, rather than long-distance runners (which is a bit strange when you think about it, given our earlier glories at long-distance running). Alcohol is still viewed to some extent as a forbidden fruit; even after the recent reductions, it is still rather heavily taxed, and whilst the Alko stores are increasingly pleasant and well-stocked places to shop, the truth is still that wines and spirits are not as easily available as in Central Europe. Hence (at least this is my theory and I’m sticking to it) it pays to have a decent belt of the stuff and get some benefit, if it’s costing so much and is hard to come by. Sipping is for wusses. In recent years, partly as a result of tax differentials on wine, Finns have moved from the grain and hops mentality in the direction of wine-drinking. At the same time, they have slipped closer towards a European attitude to drink - a couple of glasses on a weekday evening after work - without totally surrendering their proud national traditions of getting legless on Friday and Saturday nights and then going jogging the next morning to shake off the cobwebs. A great deal will change in May 2004, when Estonia joins the EU. This is the reason the government brought down booze prices in March, as it was thought prudent not to encourage people to import hundreds of litres of vodka as soon as the import restrictions were lifted. It remains to be seen how well this will work.
Had to
(from hs.fi)
Comment by Keksi — Tue, May 30th, 2006 @ 11:21 pm