My first day ever in Europe
Sorry for the light blogging lately, I’ve been very busy launching the redesigned S60.com and new S60 Blogs themes and new bi-monthly S60 podcast debuts later this week. I’m away on business this week then next week I head back to the states - First time I’ve been “home” in three years!! I’m not sure if anyone will be interested or not, but I hope to be blogging reguarly while I’m back in Baltimore and plan to share my thoughts on the U.S. after I’ve been away for three years.
So expect some light blogging over the next five weeks from me, but Monsieur Finnpundit and Monsieur Hank have generously offered to share their wisdom with you while I’m away. So many many many thanks in advance to those guys for helping me out while I’m busy!!
So today is my first day ever in Europe. I’m in Nice, France attending the S0 Summit then off to Monaco for some F1. Here in France (my first time in France) I finally feel like I’m visiting Europe. Tiny zig-zag streets, outdoor cafes, people singing while they ride their bicycles, topless beaches, litte family run markets, the smell of cigarettes virtually everywhere, funky sunglasses, cute but shoddy-looking apartments…these are things that all ignorant Americans like myself expect in every European city - whether it be Stockholm, Helsinki, Nice, a random big city in Armenia (I’m too lazy to Google it), or Jerusalem.
People say the French are rude, but I have yet to experience this. I picked up some 2 euro wine from the corner market along with a bag of chips, while placing the items in a bag (wow! the clerk put my items in a bag for me!). struggling in English the woman behind the counter said, “be careful so chips don’t get hurt” [by the glass bottles of wine]. How so very nice of her!! Maybe that’s how this city got its name.
Phil wrote:
“I finally feel like I’m visiting Europe. Tiny zig-zag streets, outdoor cafes, people singing while they ride their bicycles, topless beaches, litte family run markets, the smell of cigarettes virtually everywhere, funky sunglasses, cute but shoddy-looking apartments…these are things that all ignorant Americans like myself expect in every European city.”
You hit the nail on the head there. Europe is not France, France is just one country in Europe. Even if the average ignorant american thinks otherwise.
Europe is, afterall, formed by numerous countries with wildly varying languages, histories, cultures and customs. Americans sometimes say that the USA is varied and that you can’t really make generalizations about the whole USA because it has so many different reagons and peoples. To some extent this may be true but the variation doesn’t come even close to that of Europe’s.
This is the main reason why Europe will never become the same kind of federation that the USA is, no matter how strongly the EU tries to fuse the different countries together. Globalization seems to have weakened nationalistic thinking but it’s still there and won’t ever go away completely. The different peoples of Europe want to hang on to their national identities and sovereignty.
Comment by Ã…boy — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 9:44 pm
You’ve been to Germany. Doesn’t that count as Europe????
Enjoy your time in France and Monaco, while we are partying with Lordi on Friday night.
Don’t forget to say “baisse moi” when you are leaving the shop.
Comment by Saksalainen — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 9:45 pm
(Edit: ..it has so many different regions and peoples..)
Comment by Ã…boy — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 9:52 pm
Don’t catch the French disease :p
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 10:19 pm
Don’t catch the French disease :p
In France it’s better known as the Spanish disease.
And here’s a nice FZ song to hum along to while you’re there.
Ooo, I’m such a raving anti-French bigot!
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 10:28 pm
I think Phil meant that his mental image of “Europe” equals “France”. Therefore, he is visiting “Europe” the first time, meaning “France”. “Germany” dosent equal “France” and is therefore not “Europe”.
Wow, that looks wierd.
Comment by Justen — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 10:36 pm
How nice. Finland isn’t a part of Europe.
Comment by Janne — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 10:50 pm
yeah phil you must say baise moi if you want to be surrounded by pervs in leather jackets
Comment by p — Mon, May 22nd, 2006 @ 11:59 pm
You’ve been to Germany. Doesn’t that count as Europe????
sorta
Comment by Phil — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 12:11 am
In Phil’s defense, people in Estonia (and Finland, and the UK) often refer to a trip to France or The Netherlands or Germany as a “going to Europe.”
I remember I told a lady in London that I was going to France the next day.
“Oh, you’re going to Europe” she said.
“Um, aren’t we already in Europe?” I responded.
“Not really,” she said.
Hate to break it to you limeys, but the only difference between the UK and another parliamentary democracies with an ancient monarchy (Netherlands? Denmark? Norway? Sweden?) is that I can understand most of what they say in the UK…
I also remember an acquaintance in Tallinn coming back from skiing in France.
“We were skiing in Europe,” he said.
“But aren’t we in Europe?” I answered.
“Sort of,” he said. “We’re on the edge of it.”
Comment by giustino — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 12:44 am
Also, Phil, I look forward to reading your thoughts on “Bal’mur”
If you want to show the Finns what your hometown is like, maybe you should take your digital camera to the Bal’more bus terminal at 2 am on a Saturday. There’s bound to be all sort of upright Americans there, sitting around drinking beer out of paper bags and peeing on the terminal wall…
Comment by giustino — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 12:47 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/europe
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 1:13 am
I wonder if the use of the euro will, over time, change people’s perspectives on what constitutes Europe.
Comment by sherewin — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 1:33 am
Hanko is Finland’s Europe.
Comment by Arttu — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 2:38 am
Phil
If in France you get directed to a bar, and its playing YMCA…. well, just watch your …but….
But then again I need to stay out of those Sailor bars.
Comment by winter — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 3:52 am
“I wonder if the use of the euro will, over time, change people’s perspectives on what constitutes Europe.”
No, it won’t. It saves people the hassle of currency exchange, but otherwise is a meaningless, superficial thing.
Comment by Turjake — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 6:35 am
“…in France you get directed to a bar, and its playing YMCA…”
Heh, they played YMCA in Helsinki NMKY (=YMCA) basketball matches in the 80’s. The team was even coached by some very anti-gay pastor at that time, so they weren’t quite reading the message between the lines
On who’s in Europe and who’s not, I guess one headline from 19th century british newspaper says it all: “Fog in the channel - the continent isolated for days.”
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 8:58 am
winter wrote:
“well, just watch your …but…”
Yes because all gay men are horny devils who’ll bugger the hell out of every prone male that they come in contact with. Yeah right.
Grow up.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 11:18 am
Please remember how many points Monaco gave Finland in Eurovisut!!!
Comment by majava — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 11:39 am
On the subject of #18.
I wouldn’t be as harsh as winter here, but still it got me thinking.
).
Why the boldest and most isistent pick up effords towards me has been by gay males. Well, its kinda flattering but still, I would prefer such attention from opposite sex ( whitch rarely happens
My looks? -Like gays would have lower standards, eh?
I think I look and act like an average hetero, but still on my personal experience, I can’t help myself having somewhat stereopypical picture of gay men and it’s not just in my head.
No fobias or anything negative to say, I’m just wondering where it’s coming from.
Comment by issi — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 11:48 am
Have a nice trip home….it’s really weird going back. People actually smile and talk to you at random
I envy you the crabcakes at Bertha’s.
And Parisians are often the model responsible for the ‘rude French’ much like Helsinkians are the unfortunate representatives of the rest of Finland. I’ve always had a nice time in France and found the people mostly friendly.
Comment by hfb — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 11:49 am
issi, average gay men probaply look like other people, but we only identify as gays those who decide to broadcast the fact. Not unlike those heavy music fans (male) who decide to grow long hair.
Comment by Justen — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
Speaking fresh off the Paris-Helsinki airplane, I concur with hfb.
There is a big difference between official France and everyday France. The vast majority of the people I met and befriended in France were friendly, polite, and even humble. Of course there was the occasional bad apple but generally speaking the French are no ruder than anybody else. Official and administrative France, however, is backwards, slow, bureaucratic, obnoxious, and very rude. Although I did get very friendly service at the local IRS, which completely shocked my coworkers.
Comment by Anzi — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
If you haven’t seen narrow streets and old buildings in stockholm, you have never been there.
Comment by Finn — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 12:17 pm
Yes we all know that Finland is
- a member of the EU
- part of the Eurozone
But, is it European?
In terms of its culture Europe is certainly not homogeneous(which is great) However, in terms of deep culture Finland is pretty unique, and yes I HAVE travelled extensively around Europe, so I can judge
In my opinion Finland’s deep culture is unique compared to the rest of European. Like many others I think that Finnish culture is very similar to Japanese culture
So Finland might be on a map of Europe, but are the Finnish people really “European”?
Comment by watsonwatson — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 1:03 pm
“Hanko is Finland´s Europe.”
No, Rauma is.
Comment by press — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
I remember I told a lady in London that I was going to France the next day.
“Oh, you’re going to Europe†she said.
“Um, aren’t we already in Europe?†I responded.
“Not really,†she said.
God that annoys me when brits tries to pretend they’re not european.
Comment by Captain Haddock — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
@ issi (post 20): You can’t really make any generalizations, be it positive or negative, concerning gay people. That’s because as a “group” they are just as heterogenous (no pun intended :)) as straight people. The only common nominator for them is that they happen to prefer members of their own sex as partners. In every other respect they represent the whole spectrum of humanity.
There are some gay stereotypes that some gay people (for some reason) seem to exhibit but I’d wager that most gay people are as any other person. It’s just that you notice the more flamboyant ones and the ones that fit the stereotypes because they stick out, just like Justen said.
People tend to see members of their own group (in which they identify themselves) more heterogenous than the people in some other group, which on the other hand are seen to be more homogenous. I think this also explains why all gay people are often perceived to be this or that.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
What, no trip to Estonia?
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
Continuing still for a wee bit on the off-topic: You can think how absurd it is to try to talk of gay people as a homogenous group by reversing the issue. What if someone were to say that “all heterosexual people are like this and this”? Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Captain Haddock, don’t you know that britain is an island not connected to europe? :)))
In my opinion people refer to Europe as something more than just location. After France it’s quite hard to refer Finland as Europe. Not because bad life, bad weather or lack of monuments and interesting places, but because you don’t have that feeling. When you arrive to France your first impression is people. Look at them they all dressed so nice, they pay attention to their look, they are friendly that it’s enough to make good impression.
I imagine how many Finns are trying to google Armenia(instead of Phil) now, isn’t it?
Finns are the most religous nation(according to statistics) but can hardly say which country first adopted Christianity as religion. Vast majority never heard that there was celebration of Christianity(1700 years) in 2001 and hardly can point country on map.
Comment by Belino — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
It’s all a matter of who decides what is “Europe” and what is “european”. The common and ignorant way of seeing this has been that Europe equals France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Why does “european” mean to have sunny weather or old statues, or small and cramped streets and decaying and inefficient infrastructure? Europe is a wide place with different aspects. It’s probably that some people in the “Europe” do not want to include other nations to their little family so that they could feel superiour. Like a little elite club of selected members. “We are Europe but you are not”.
There are many nations in Asia with different cultures but they’re all asian. The same goes with Africa: lots of different nations and countries but all are african. Why would Europe be any different?
And as for what comes to christianity and religion, most finns belong to the church just because it’s a habit. Much less true believers in Finland than you would imagine from the statistics. And what has religion got to do with being european anyway? There are many different religions in Europe and some people are atheists. Does somehow being a christian make you a better european?
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 7:04 pm
“European city - whether it be Stockholm, Helsinki, Nice, a random big city in Armenia (I’m too lazy to Google it), or Jerusalem.”
Jerusalem? Is it a European city too?
Comment by Henkka — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 7:11 pm
On #25, I have noticed also this eerie connection with the Japanese, when doing business with them. Of course, they are even more formal and conformal, probably due to their high population density, but they are easy with long pauses in the discussion, consider modesty a virtue, are careful and prudent, if promising something, are afraid of making fools of themselves but may do terrible things in an open-loop mode without correcting feedback.
And they take their SHOES OFF, when visiting your house, so you don’t have to spend the next week by scrubbing off all the scheisse your visitors bring in in their shoes.
American indians probably noticed something too, as they had two classes for the white men. The europeans were white men as general but the finnish settlers were the ones-like-us white men.
I’m trying to figure out, what makes the European deep culture, if you peel off all the layers of civilization, that have affected also Finland for hundreds of year. Only difference, I can come up with is that the middle europeans cleared their forests and moved to the towns and villages pretty early, while the finns liked to live by themselves in small communities hunting and gathering. The first form of agriculture was also pretty solitary business, as you built your hut in the middle of the forest and burned the forest down to clear the field.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 7:33 pm
This is the main reason why Europe will never become the same kind of federation that the USA is, no matter how strongly the EU tries to fuse the different countries together. Globalization seems to have weakened nationalistic thinking but it’s still there and won’t ever go away completely. The different peoples of Europe want to hang on to their national identities and sovereignty.
Europe’s greatest richness lies in it’s immense diversity, I find the notion that we can not have political unity because French clerks are more polite or Italians kiss each other on the cheeks, a tad amusing.
And yes Europe will one day form a federation.
Lite kvällslektyr åt dig Åboy ;): http://tinyurl.com/k53fv
Comment by Anton — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 9:24 pm
European countries have language that are latin based. I’m convinced that language affects the way that you see the world. Language must have a significant impact upon a country’s deep culture. Apart from the Baltic countries and Hungary all other European countries have latin based languages.
Having travelled a lot, I would say that Finland’s deep culture is very unusual (from a European perspective)
Comment by Finnish honesty — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 9:47 pm
“European countries have language that are latin based.”
Krhm.
Comment by m — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 9:54 pm
Finland is not a Baltic country.
Comment by Kat — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 9:57 pm
Finnish dishonesty:
Having travelled a lot, I would say that Finland’s deep culture is very unusual (from a European perspective)
What’s wrong with you? Not fucked up, Satanic, evil - just unusual? I would have expected a rant about Finnish culture being the most terrible in the world. Are you going soft?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 9:58 pm
If you haven’t seen narrow streets and old buildings in stockholm, you have never been there.
Well, if you take the T-bana (Silja) or bus (Viking) straight to Sergels torg and sit on the stairs drinking pussikalja for the full 6 hours or so (been there, done that), you will probably miss them.
(Those Swedes are terrible bigots for having such a stereotypical view of Finns)
But seriously, running the Stockholm marathon is a great way to see the city. You will probably end up vomiting on the streets anyway, though.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 10:07 pm
“European countries have language that are latin based.â€Â
In what way is german, or any other germanic language latin based?
Comment by Christian — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 10:16 pm
I’ve always been pretty wary of the way the term “European” is used. It is such a broad and heterogenous concept, yet it is often used in a very narrow and heterogenous contex.
Every time someone says for example that Finns should dress, eat, or converse more like “Europeans” I make it a point to ask them to specify. Should we take our model from Germany or Portugal? The Netherlands or Greece? How could anyone claim that these countries form some sort of heterogenous block? How can any country be specifically excluded from this group when there is no real group to begin with?
Comment by Anzi — Tue, May 23rd, 2006 @ 10:18 pm
Anton wrote:
“I find the notion that we can not have political unity because French clerks are more polite or Italians kiss each other on the cheeks, a tad amusing.”
I think the cultural and linguistical differences run a bit deeper than just in the casual gestures of everyday life. Or more to the mark, the casual gestures of everyday life are probably reflections from these differences. Ripples on the surface, you might think.
I have a hard time imagining that every nation would give up their self government for a federal state. Can you see germans and polish for example taking eachother by the hand and dancing and frolicking to the tune of the federal state as one? I’m sorry but I can’t. There are a lot of historical and cultural divides between the different countries and their peoples, no matter how hard one tries to live in denial and to forget them. Even now there’s a growing tide of extreme nationalism in Poland and in Russia, and also in many other countries.
Whether you like it or not and whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing people do still identify themselves very much according to their nationality. Their nationality and their culture and language defines to a great extent who they really are.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 12:11 am
Hey Phil, I think saw you at the Airport. Were you wearing a blazer and jeans?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 1:14 am
Well, I will say where is europe from my personal experience.
Portugal, Ireland, UK, Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Czech, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Greece, Poland, Norway, Sweden are Europe.
Finland is not.
Comment by european — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 7:53 am
european: Your ignorance makes me ill and angry. Try learning some history before you come here to offer your idiotic opinions.
Comment by tim73 — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 8:02 am
American indians probably noticed something too, as they had two classes for the white men. The europeans were white men as general but the finnish settlers were the ones-like-us white men.
Antti - Do you have a citation for that? I’d guess that the Finnish immigrants were shooting the Native Americans just as much as everyone else who were taking their land. I’ll ask a friend of mine who is a linguist in Native American languages if he has heard of this, but it sounds a bit like an urban myth.
Also, one plausible explanation for the perception that Finland is not Europe is that, as far as I’ve read, the Finns migrated here from the direction of the Ural mountains in what is now known as Russia. The language and culture are markedly different from the continental European countries so I can understand how Finland is not always thought of as European, especially when the term is so subjective.
Comment by hfb — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 9:01 am
Tim 73
Let’s have some intelligent analysis rather than mindless insults!
Personally, I agree with this comment. Finland’s culture, in my opinion, is quite different from the rest of Europe. This is not a negative comment. Being different is OK!
The main aspect of Finnish culture that I find unusual is conformity. Social rules are obeyed in Finland. For example, public demonstrations are unusually rare in Finland by European standards. Individuality in Finland is viewed in a negative light. Two weeks ago I attended a lecture by a Finnish educationalist. She said that kids in Finland were educated to think “one country, one people, one language, one mind”. For some foreigners living in Finland this way of living is perceived to create a “safe” society
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 11:21 am
Well, there was this group of so called “forest finns” living in Sweden. I don’t remember exactly their history, but they moved from Savo area to Sweden, as Duke Carl wanted them to turn the thick forests of the central Sweden into fields. Later their method of clearing fields by burning forest started to bug the king of Sweden and he decided to make them outlaws, as they also declined to learn swedish. Many of them were deported to the new world, into colony of New Sweden in Delaware. Here is something about the colony and it’s relationships with the local Delaware indians.
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~mgf2j/finns.html
Later the finns got along with the Ojibwa’s around the northern Michigan so well, that there still lives a group of people, called the Finndians.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 11:44 am
Belino: according to you Finns are the most religious nation. Which statistics are you talking about?
So Armenia adopted Christianity for more than 1700 years ago. But being Christian can’t be the key issue when measured which country is European. Christianity as a religion is of Middle Eastern origin. The majority of the people in the Philippines are Christian but that country is Asian, to name one example. Christianity is a global religion with very many non-European adherents today and it was founded by non-Europeans. That doesn’t mean Christianity hasn’t been very important for the development of Europe and Europeans have been instrumental to spreading Christianity but it’s not an exclusively European religion.
Ancient Greek culture was very important for the development of what we usually see as “European”. For a very long time in medieval Europe, there was the risk of the Christians throwing the Greek (European) legacy overboard as Pagan. European civilization could flourish only when the Christians were able of accepting the great ancient legacy that had been there before any word of Jesus reached the shores of Europe.
Finnish honesty: Considering the relations between Greek and Latin (the word “Europe” is of Greek origin) it is not possible to think that those languages which are truly European descend from Latin. Greek is not a language of “latin origin” yet it is a very crucial language to the development of European civilization and was the language of such a civilization before Latin.
European languages that are of Vulgar Latin origin are the Romance languages such as Romanian, Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Catalan, Galician and some other languages such as Romansh (Switzerland’s fourth and smallest national language):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 12:28 pm
Finnish honesty: I think your point about some languages being more European than others was obviously not about Romance languages (those that descend from Latin); you were talking about INDO-EUROPEAN languages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
European languages would then be roughly speaking those Indo-European languages that do not belong to the Indo-Iranian family.
The Baltic languages of Latvian and Lithuanian belong to the Indo-European group (you were probably mixing them up with Estonian, which is neither a Baltic nor an Indo-European language).
Those Europeans who speak a Finno-Ugric (Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian etc.), Semitic (Maltese, Arabic, Hebrew etc.) or Turkic (Turkish, Azeri etc.) language or Basque could then be identified as speakers of a language that is not a European language.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 12:49 pm
According to european’s little list there, all other countries on the European continent are Europe except for Finland.
Yeah, right. If this was some schoolboyish attempt at bullying through exclusion, it aint working.
FInland’s position on the geopolitical map can be best described as being in between. We’re not “european” according to the standard, stereotypical explanation, but we’re not slavic or nordic either. Finland is a unique and sometimes strange and even unsettling mixture of different influences, starting from our language and genetic heritage. The language comes from the Urals, but genetically Finns have the most in common with the Dutch and Belgians. Finnish culture is a mixture of Nordic and slavic, and unlike most countries where the inner division of mentality runs on a north-south axis, Finland’s division runs on an east-west axis.
Finland is a country that is not easily categorized, and I think that we should leave it at that. I can understand how many people who are used to dividing things and people into categories and keeping them there have a hard time with Finland for this exact reason.
Comment by Anzi — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 12:49 pm
On the origin of finns, the theory I learned at school was that this country has been populated pretty soon after the last ice age. The finnish language arrived here with a relatively small group of people of the so called hammer-axe culture around the year 0.
For some reason, the germanic and other people living already here found their language so cool, that they adopted it also. We can still see ancient germanic loans in finnish, that has preserved them like a fridge.
If you look at the genetics, finns are 90% european and 10% uralic, like the Hungarians.
It is true, however, that looking from the continental Europe, Finland is practically an island. But if the first finns from Turku studied in the collège de Sorbonne already around 1313, we have been hanging on the edge of the European civilization, like a mongrel on sausage.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 12:52 pm
Finns conformistic? I was once listening to an american lecturer who said that the children who get bullied in school should conform and somehow change themselves because there’s something in them that provokes others to bully them. Even the USA is praised as a haven of individuality but in reality there’s a strict code of how to think and behave and live your life and if you don’t do it that way you are marginalized.
The finnish view is totally opposite. In Finland if a child is bullied the teachers try to influence the bullies and the whole class in such a way that the bullying will stop. This does not happen at the expense of the bullied child’s interests and individuality, like in the States.
And even if the french go out and burn cars or even if the polish dump manure on the steps of their parliament they are still way more conformist and conservative than finns. In many countries it’s still the regilious and family-oriented thinking that guides people in their lives and restricts their options. Little room is left for genuine individuality.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 1:20 pm
Ã…boy: did you see Belino’s post (31) where it stood that the Finns are the most religious nation of all (or maybe it was most religious in Europe, I still haven’t seen that study)? Now if that would be true it might indeed explain why Finns are more conformist than other nations (contrary to your thesis which states that we are less conformist because we are less religious). Does anyone have facts? Anyway, the issue of religion and conformism is anything but a simple equation. Just take all the people with New Age beliefs in Finland and elsewhere, are they a) religious and b) conformist?
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 1:35 pm
But are Finns more religious than other Europeans? Just because people belong to the church does not make them religious. The church certainly dictates peoples’ lives less here than in many catholic countries.
Comment by Anzi — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
Finns are habit christians.
an average finn goes to church three times in his life, when he is christened, when s/he gets married and when he dies. In two of them he has no say in and marriage well that can be debatable.
Comment by Blah — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
Anzi and Blah said it, just like I did already in post 32: finns belong to the church just because it’s a habit. Just like people in other nordic countries. And in recent years even this habit has been changing as more and more people are leaving the lutheran church. As paradoxal as it may seem, belonging to the church in Finland is no indicator of religious thinking.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 2:13 pm
Are the people of Finland a) conformist religious people or b) non-conformist secularized people?
I know too many of both categories to be able to see either one as more typically Finnish. I also know non-conformist religious people and conformist secularized ones.
As a Helsinkian my experience is that Helsinki is slightly different from the rest of the country. I’d be very surprised if there was any other municipality in Finland where a lesser percentage are members of the Lutheran Church. Yet even in Helsinki the majority are tax-paying members of the state church. Even here many do so out of conformism rather than out of religious belief. Indeed, many of the strongest believers leave the church to follow a religious leader with more fire and fervor than your average Lutheran priest.
In a small village (there are many of them left in the more sparsely populated parts of Finland where true religion can be a collective experience) a conformist would be a religious person. Going to school in Helsinki, I remember most of my school friends (those who aired their views, at any rate, not everybody did) being both atheist and members of the Lutheran church (although not very knowledgeable of who this Luther dude was and why the Church had such a name). Yet almost everyone chose Lutheran confirmation at age fifteen, out of conformism I guess (even an atheist friend of mine chose to get baptized in order to do the same thing as everybody else). So my general feeling at age fifteen was that religious people were considered weird by my peers and those who chose not to participate in the Lutheran rite of passage (in Helsinki probably many more than elsewhere in Finland) were either really proud of belonging to another religion or proud of their non-conformist decision to remain outside of religious communities at age fifteen.
Growing up, I often felt the many conformist views my parents expressed were the legacy of the small town and village environments they’d grown up in. I’m not referring to religious discussions here at all (we never went to church). But I felt that the collective legacy of my forebears was that whatever you do, don’t stand out in any way. It was really this legacy that I always felt was foreign to the spirit of my native city. Those times I’ve felt that I’m proud to be a Helsinkian it’s always been because it’s the most non-conformist place in Finland. Helsinki is a diverse city in this sense, conformists living next door to non-conformists, often not speaking to their neighbors and thus retaining the illusion that everybody else thinks like they do.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
“Religious thinking”..
Now there’s an oxymoron if there ever was one. 
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
Ã…boy: religious people have contributed to European thinking in many ways. Even those Ancient Greek Pagan philosophers believed in their Greek Gods. Not that atheists and agnostics haven’t contributed to thinking too but a key turning point in European history was when religion was understood as an individual choice rather than something that people as a collective believe in. This key contribution of religious thinkers (many of them more fervently and consciously religious than the average mass ever was) has opened many doors for non-conformists in many areas later on.
What else about the relation between religion and conformism? A Roma who is on average more religious than the average ethnic Finn is most probably seen as a blatant example of non-conformism by Finns but as a conformist by the Roma.
Born again Christians generally are non-conformist when measured by the standard of the majority of the population but conforming to their own code of conduct, sometimes very rigorously.
Atheism can also function as a religious doctrine, marking the nominally atheist person who is open-minded about religious questions as a weird non-conformist in the eyes of the true non-believers.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
And here’s a nice FZ song to hum along to while you’re there.
And here’s a Wierd Al tune on a similar theme:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdalyankovic/geniusinfrance.html
(yes I know the comment was waaay back, but I rarely have the patience to read through 60-odd comments.
)
-BM
Comment by Badgermushroom — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 2:49 pm
With some introspection, I think a big part of finnish comformism is just laziness. It’s a damn trouble to haul your ass to some office to quit church etc. The finns would not be afraid of going non-conformal, if they find the issue really important for them.
My wife comes with very left-wing backround. My backround was more or less nationalist moderate right. My wife’s grandpa took part in the winter war, but quit the continuation war, when the old Finland-Soviet Union border was crossed. He was court-martialed and threated by execution, but afterall was just jailed. My grandpa was almost court-martialed after refusing an incomprehensible order to arrange some extra physical exercise for his company, just after they have returned from a heavy battle. Having known them both, I have a high respect for these non-conformists.
Comment by antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 3:08 pm
About religion: I found online (sorry for not providing a link) a report called God, Guns and Gays linked to the World Values Survey project.
There was a reference to a 1947 Gallup Poll where the following questions were asked “Do you, personally, believe in God?” and “Do you believe in life after death?” The World Values Survey undertook a similar poll in 2001 (without the word “personally” in the first question).
In 1947 Finland was a very poor country compared to Sweden, and the already secularized Swedes considered Finns oddly religious. But what did the Gallup Polls show?
83 % of Finns said they believe in God compared to 80 % of Swedes. 69 % of Finns said they believe in life after death compared to 49 % of Swedes. Since this whole thread was originally about France being “Europe” (and France is a bastion of the stereotypically European secularism), let me add that in 1947 only 66 % of the French said they believe in God and 58 % of them said they believed in life after death.
What happened in 2001:
belief in God: Finland 72 %, Sweden 46 %, France 56 % (United States had showed constant 94 % both 1947 and 2001).
belief in life after death: Finland 44 %, Sweden 40 %, France 39 % (United States 76 %, up from 68 % in 1947).
So if we compare Finland with the über-secular Sweden and France, the poll results show that Finns are still more religious than them. Italy (that hadn’t been a participant in the 1947 Gallup Poll) polled much closer to US on both counts belief in God and belief in life after death.
I think Phil posted one time some stats comparing religiosity in different countries showing Italy much closer to the United States than most other European nations.
When looking at measurements of religiosity in Europe it would be nice to see different other variables than belief in God (such as churchgoing and the belief in e.g. church dogma, afterlife is already one) being compared between nations.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
still finns aren’t religious in a traditional sense.
typical finns think about god maybe once in a while thinking - Well maybe there is a god because everything is so complex but this believe in god is more like deism than theist belief.
If the survey would ask about do you believe in evolution there propably would be lower % for yes’s in other countries than Finland
Comment by Blah — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Dunno, but found this:
“There had already been a surprising amount of intermarriage between Finns and Lenape, especially considering the fact that the Finns had come over mainly as family groups. Many Finnish rebels had taken up refuge with the Lenape when their first revolt against the Swedish governor had failed. They hid among their new kin and eventually were absorbed as full members of the Lenape Nation. Other Finns would follow their example in 1669 and 1675 when similar uprisings against the British met the same fate. To the Lenape there was a distinct difference between these Finns, who they referred to as nittappi, “our fellow tribesmen” or simply “friend”, and all other Europeans, whom they lumped together as senaares, “alien people”. When the royal proclamation ending New Sweden was issued in 1655 many Finns disobeyed the orders to leave. Finns bound for New Sweden were told to turn around and go back home, but many made their way to Dutch ports and sailed anyway. When a shipload arrived with 33 men, 27 women and 32 children the new Dutch authorities tried to keep them from disembarking. The Lenape intervened. They demanded that the nittappi be allowed to come ashore. The same thing happened in 1664 when 140 Finns sailed from Amsterdam. This time the British tried to stop them from entering the territory they had taken over from the Dutch. Again the Lenape gathered a sufficient show of force that the English authorities stepped aside to let the nittappi join those already settled among the natives.”
Comment by Hank W. — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
Thanks Hank, that’s the one. A story about this was also in Kaleva few years ago.
Those Savo people, who didn’t go to Sweden or America spread to the east and north, as they were given a tax break, if they moved to those areas. Some time after they settled, the crown tried to start taxing them by sending some official there, but many times that official never returned. For example, Simon Affleck’s (Simo Hurtta) story could produce a real spaghetti eastern.
North-Karelians, are the descendants of these settlers and the original Karelian population. The spirit is somewhat still alive as few years ago some armed posse forced their drinking buddy free from Ilomantsi jail. It is quite common for these people to distill their own booze and they are not exactly happy that some bureaucrat from Brussels tells them, how many wolfs they should tolerate around their houses. Some conformists, heh.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
Phil had once this post on polls measuring religious importance in different countries:
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/06/06/religious-importance/
That number two poll there showed yet again Italy being relatively close to America in these issues. Too bad those stats didn’t include many interesting countries such as Finland or other Nordic Countries or Japan.
In a sense the French secularism is what I’d consider a typically European outlook on religion. Interestingly Italy is so close to France and Rome has been such a key city in European history.
I’d say Finland is all in all quite a European country when it comes to religion. It’s also such a typical European story that Finland was a deeply Lutheran church-going country when the people were really poor and the rising welfare shows in the diminishing churchgoing.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 6:28 pm
If my previous post was confused, I tried to say that Italy is mentally closer to America despite being geographically close to France when it comes to religious issues.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
Very Japanese!
1. Finns obey orders and rules.
2. Finns don’t demonstrate.
3. Finns don’t argue.
4. Finns take off shoes.
5. Finns are very nationalistic.
6. Finns are very polite.
7. Finns don’t go topless at beach.
8. Finns are not superficially friendly.
9. Linguistically closer to Japanese language.
10. Genetically closer to Japanese.
11. Finns don’t smile.
Finns are more Japanese than European.
Comment by european — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 7:55 pm
#67) I am a 10th generation descendant of these Savonian settlers of northern Carelia. Original Carelian population (Finnish speaking creek catholics) fled to Russia during the 17th century.
Comment by jormanen — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 10:41 pm
Good grief, european. You’re just an endless pit of simplistic lists, aren’t you?
1. Finns obey orders and rules, unless they think that the orders and rules are stupid (drinking in public places, downloading from the internet)
2. Finns don’t demonstrate what? Finns do march and protest. We’re not as keen to storm the streets as those hot-blooded southern European cousins of ours, but we protest when it really matters. It’s not our main modus operandi, though.
3. Finns don’t argue? Are you for real?
4. Finns do take off shoes when at home or at someone else’s home. It’s considered extremely rude and disgusting if you don’t.
5. Finns are very nationalistic. Yes, I guess we are. Though expect a lot of that from other countries as well this summer. There’s nothing like football to get those nationalistic juices flowing!
6. Finns are very polite. I agree. We might not always be correct, but we’re polite.
7. Finns don’t go topless at the beach but we go butt naked in the sauna. Something which our topless European cousins consider perverted. Go figure.
8. Finns are not superficially friendly, that’s true.
9. Since when have finno-ugric languages and japanese anything in common? Where do you come up with this stuff?
10. See above.
11. Well I’m smiling now. At you. It’s a very wide smile and I am shaking my head at the same time. See?
Comment by Anzi — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 11:12 pm
On #71 Yes, I think some of them settled in Tver area, close to the Moscow. There are probably still some finnish speakers left. Someone must have stayed or returned later, as the northern Carelia still has pretty strong orthodox presence, my granma’s family, for example, was all the way greek catholic and karelian as one can be, if judged by border-karelian dialect, words spoken per second and the number of different pastry recipies. On grandpa’s side, I’m probably a savonian descendant too, if -nen in the end of the family name refers to that direction.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, May 24th, 2006 @ 11:36 pm
Looking the statistic of how many finns believe in life after death makes me wonder how many finns believe in reincarnation.
Comment by comma copulation — Thu, May 25th, 2006 @ 4:41 am
Antti: I found this 2002 abstract on the situation of Tver Karelians from a University of Joensuu workshop website:
http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/methodsxi/abstracts/turicheva.htm
There’s something about the Karelian folklore groups and Karelian being taught at some schools and a monthly journal called “Karielan koivune”. I’d rather call them Karelian speakers than Finnish speakers but Karelian and Finnish languages are very close.
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, May 25th, 2006 @ 10:35 am
Sorry, it was this link I meant:
http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/methodsxi/abstracts/turicheva.html
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, May 25th, 2006 @ 10:36 am
Apparently there’s even a Karelian language summer course in June-July arranged for Finns in Tver by Etelä-Karjalan kesäyliopisto:
http://personal.inet.fi/koulu/iok/kirjasto/504tver2.htm
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, May 25th, 2006 @ 10:42 am
Actually this Karelian looks quite different from Finnish although some words are clearly understandable (from an issue of a bilingual Tver Karelian-Russian newspaper six years ago):
http://www.library.tver.ru/karel/sana/ks041.htm
One of the sentences sounds like this:
“Kaikilla, ket kuvneldih S.V. Tarasovan runoloida, hüö miellüttih.”
(”Everyone who listened to the poems of S.V. Tarasov, liked them”; my guess of a translation.)
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, May 25th, 2006 @ 10:51 am
One more Tver Karelian spam for you, it seems I actually found some of those poems by the Tver Karelian poet Stanislav V. Tarasov (in the original Karelian):
http://www.library.tver.ru/karel/tarasov-k.htm
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, May 25th, 2006 @ 10:59 am
Oh yes, not finnish, but karelian speakers, of course. Then there is this “border-karelian” dialect, I guess, it is considered a finnish dialect, but it sounds very much, like the language in those poems and newspaper articles.
I read one story, written in that dialect about the evacuation of people of Suistamo during the WWII. Apparently the people of the receiving community didn’t like the evacuees, as the writer commented “A kui tänneh tulih ga moishet mulgokatshonnat sain ja viel päälle kysyö solkattih…” (When I arrived here I got some dirty looks and the people were asking questions…).
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Thu, May 25th, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
Antti and Hank - I got a reply from the linguist which you might find interesting. Urban legend, but some truth in it.
“The Finns quite objectively speaking had some cultural traits in common with the Native population that others did not have. Furthermore, they were among first wave settlers. This meant that there was a high percentage of successful integration. On the other hand, Finns did not belong to non-violent religious groups, like the Pennsylvania Germans.
So they were more likely to engage in violent conflict, and when the occasion warrented it, they did so. So the reality is that sometimes Finns, because they were Finns, got along better with Indians than others did, but this was far from being the whole picture. The urban legend is precisely that, an urban legend, but it has a grain of truth in it, unlike many urban legends.”
Comment by hfb — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
hfb: and of course there were these legendary “No Finns or Indians allowed” signs in some places in North America. That was the same treatment that the Roma have experienced in Finland. Maybe that helped to create some sense of solidarity between Finnish immigrants and Native Americans.
This article on the Mesaba Co-Op Park I found at random (there’s some stuff also about Gus Hall, the legendary United States Communist Party leader and son of Finnish immigrants):
http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-2000/Visiting%20Mesaba%20Park.htm
“Faced with ethnic and political discrimination symbolized by signs that read ‘No Finns or Indians allowed’ Finnish immigrants collected money from workers’ and farmers’ organizations to buy some land.”
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
The PWW article from a few years ago was about Minnesota, this is about Keweenaw Peninsula in Northern Michigan, the place Antti was talking about (#49):
http://hunts-upguide.com/keweenaw_peninsula.htm
“Many Finns have intermarried with Ojibwa members of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, creating new generations of so-called ‘Finndians’ who may have blond hair or blue eyes. It’s not such an improbable combination, considering how in these parts both groups share a closeness to the land and love of fishing, hunting and the woods. Baraga and L’Anse schools may be unique in providing enrichment classes in both Ojibwa and Finnish.”
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 3:20 pm
Sorry about the wrong link, this should be it:
http://hunts-upguide.com/keweenaw_peninsula.html
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
Here’s the wikipedia article on Gus Hall (Arvo Gustav Halberg 1910-2000, who served as Communist Party USA leader until his death):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_Hall
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 3:27 pm
There was one thing that I found really curious in the PWW article on Mesaba Park, Minn. Why would mojakka be beef stew in Finnish? Indeed, it isn’t, mojakka is a Finnish American soup (lihamojakka = fi. lihakeitto, kalamojakka = fi. kalakeitto) and some Bothnians had apparently used such a word for soup at their time of emigration a century ago:
http://mojakka.com/
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
Helsinkian, you seriously should have your own blog. I’d be your loyal reader
Comment by Passer-by — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 4:32 pm
Thanks, Passer-by. Another note on that staunch Stalinist Gus Hall: he changed the last name from Halberg (the already Americanized version of the name that his parents used) to Hall but originally the family name was probably Hällberg. Gus is shortened from Gustav but he may originally have been called Kustaa.
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 4:53 pm
Thanks hfb and Helsinkian. I think we have the things in perspective now. Hmmm, I think there was some description of the finnish-indian relations also in some book by Martti Larni. I don’t remember the name, but my Russian colleague found it very funny.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Fri, May 26th, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
Armenia has never been a european country!:D
Comment by capiolet — Wed, May 31st, 2006 @ 2:54 am
Hey,
as a Finn I couldn´t care less what other europeans are thinking about us Finns. Those gayish swedes, pervert french, arrogant british, joint sucking dutch, (and I don´t have to tell you about germans, everybody knows their history) are not in the position to judge us.
instead there´s many similarities in finnish and native american cultures. Both have stuggled against much larger enemy. Original finnish religion also had spirits in the woods, water and air…and don´t forget the sweatlodge ( sauna in finnish)
so I´d be a finnindian much rather than decadent european!
Comment by Finnandproudofit — Fri, Jan 5th, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
Nice blog. I’m from Brazil.
Comment by André — Thu, Sep 27th, 2007 @ 3:45 pm