Yeah, Christians in despair are always real funny. More fun than a barrel of monkeys. Hilarious. A riot.
You funny, Mister.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer – That seems to be the price of international success… which is sad.
How should we be able to deal with such a problem and not scare away the foreign and domestic investors?

Evil supreme nanny Manna-Apu!

2,5 billion dollars per day. Anybody spare a change for those broke ass americanos?

ques getting longer and longer? Did he say medical cues? Or just the food cues?

Its called the social state of Finland, where mother Finland takes care of you. Why not get in a food line.

What passable incentive does one have not to get free this or that and not keep asking for more free stuff.

You broke it. Now you get to fix it.

Tim73

get your Facts please

The USA with 170 Million Less folks than Europe but generates More GDP.

Better Fact: If the rate of GDP grouth stays the same, the average USA resident will have a 2x income of the average European in 20 years. We are already well above a 10% split and growing.

Ireland, which has lower tax burdens and fewer regulations than the rest of the EU may be the only exception along with England.

Its the TAXES…. Duh

Winter, either you are a filthy rich divorce lawyer, one of those who will get tax reduction about $42,000, or you are dummer than a door nail, middle class bugger, who gets a whopping $32. As I am typing this, Forest Gump, and the gang in the White House, is dismanteling the middle class out of the exsistance and trickling some dough up to the needy billionairs.

Better Fact: If the rate of GDP grouth stays the same, the average USA resident will have a 2x income of the average European in 20 years. We are already well above a 10% split and growing.

As a friendly advice: why on earth don’t you try to find a discussion forum where this would actually sound possible. To rave about the welfare state and its shortcomings for people whose economy has been growing faster than the US one for decades makes you sound like a fool.

And, yeah, we all know that there are no poor people in the USA. It must be because of the lower taxes.

Yankee go home, and don’t come back before you’ve figured out how to run your own society as well as we run ours.

Quotes like these from the welfare state remind me of the Christians who cry, “How could God let this happen!?!”…

The differenece between Finland, for example, and the free world is that if you haven’t been liberated yet you can say such stupid things like: “food queues are a shame”. In the USA only stupid liberals have nerves to talk about things like that. Fortunately the number of free Finns is increasing, soon the queues will be just one unavoidable fact of life among many. Hell, what can you do about it? Freedom comes with a price.

Josku sokeakin kana löytää jyvän, sometimes a blind hen will find a corn, or something.

Being free of food and property is good. Just like getting spat on the face and kicked in the balls is great. If you’re on acid.

To folks who want to be poor and have all the spiritual values on the up and up, keep it to yourselves and spread the gospel to the homeless crowd and other poor people who can not afford to think like that.

I myself like some standards of living, even though little materialistic, it’s still not any better or worse than other ways, because it’s my way and it’s my choice. And the most important thing is that I want to keep it as a choice, not forced situation. THAT is freedom.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer – That seems to be the price of international success… which is sad.

Tell that to the Africans who have seen enormous improvements over the past few years.

the only way from rock bottom is up

>Evil supreme nanny Manna-Apu!

The sad fact that such organizations are needed at all in an institution calling itself a “welfare state” only serves to underline what crap our politicians spew out when they praise it (and the allegedly superior Nordic model behind it). This is a welfare state for the läskidemarit with their union dole, true enough, but the real poor? Why, they can always go and slip a big one up their whatsit!

And what’s with this “evil supreme” shit in this context? These organizations at least offer direct help WITHOUT moralizing and/or guiltifying anyone, unlike our employment/social services for example. YOU just try and survive on the basic unemployment money while involuntarily partaking in their cretinous “activation” courses – courses which have never EVER done anything but insulted those sad buggers who are forced to attend them!

But you supposedly had a _point_ in there somewhere as well, didn’t you?

winter,

The US has a smaller GDP than Europe. Additionally, if current trends continue, the US will still have three times the murder rate of the average European country, still have 10% of the nation without health insurance, still die sooner, still be fatter and unhealtheir, still be less happy and still have far worse educational outcomes than Finland. The US will also spend half its income paying down its debt. Americans will still work longer hours and get less holiday too.

You will have bigger TVs though and probably more of them. I wonder which I would choose.

Don’t forget faster cars!

m,

Sure they’ll have more and faster cars, made by German and Japanese companies!!! Seriously, why can’t Americans engineer cars properly?

Petteri:
“As I am typing this, Forest Gump, and the gang in the White House, is dismanteling the middle class out of the exsistance and trickling some dough up to the needy billionairs.”

It’s Forrest Gump. And the rich have become poorer during Bush:
http://m-sandt.blogspot.com/2006/04/bush-blood-sucking-vampire.html

Finn”sense”:
“Additionally, if current trends continue, the US will still have three times the murder rate of the average European country

What you mean “if the current trend continues”? For the past sixteen years crime rates have been going down in the US. If the current trend continues EUROPE will witness an increase in crime rates.

still have 10% of the nation without health insurance

At a given time yes. Doesn’t mean they can’t go to a hospital any time they want.

still die sooner

Lel! The difference is what – 0.65 years?

still be fatter and unhealtheir,

That’s their choice. Couldn’t care less.

Americans will still work longer hours and get less holiday too.

They get to choose how many hours they work a day.

Well, as I have said many times, we are not living anymore in the deep welfare state of Kekkoslovakia, which reached it’s high noon about in the beginning of the 80′s. That was when PM Kalevi Sorsa cited Kivi’s poem “Oravan laulu” (squirrel’s song) to demonstrate how well we were doing here in the good Lord’s purse.

People started to queue up for bread at the Salvation Army in the 90′s, when Esko Aho declared the experiment over. They keep the few corner stones of the welfare state and some cosmetics in the politician’s speeches up just not to upset the danm zombies, who have voted for the same parties for the last hundred years, because their grandpa did, no matter what. Liisa Aalto haven’t noticed yet, that she’s been opiated.

Sandt wrote: “They get to choose how many hours they work a day.”

If we want to compare the level of income and standard of living, working hours per week or month are a very essential factor.

At least my journalist colleagues in the U.S. seem to doing longer days than journalists here in Europe (Finland, at least), and they don’t have from five to even seven weeks vacation in the summer time and one week more in the winter.

For me paid holidays are very important part of income anyway. And often when I’ve told about our long holidays to my colleagues in the U.S., they’ve said they’d like these too.

Yes I know that Americans work more but I was saying that many of them work more because they choose to (the average week still consists of about 40 hours of work which is the same as it is here). Thousands of people move out of welfare states each year and willingly give away a bit of their free time to make more money.

Having the ability to make a choice is what counts. Here the unions make the deals and you better stay out of it.

Mikko,

No-one moves from Europe to the US to do a normal job but ust to work more hours. If you’re a manager or higher, you work lots of hours whatever job you’re doing unless you’re in an enlightened company like Mars or ICL.

Americans work on average something like 15% more than Europeans. The idea they do this because they want to is assertion and is not backed up by evidence. The evidence is that Americans work longer hours because they have to and because they have a culture of hard work, where to be the first person out of the office is looked down upon. Given the culture in the US one wonders what the actual difference is since many people do not record their overtime.

This is not to mention the meagre holidays Americans get nor the lack of support for the family in terms of maternity and paternity leave.

To pretend that Finns would suddenly start working longer hours if some of the restrictions were lifted is nonsense. After all, plenty of people work overtime already.

Honestly, of coure these benefits have an economic cost. It would be far better for the economy if everyone rushed out to work, worked 80 hour weeks, took a weeks holiday (unpaid) and outsourced the raising of their children to professionals so it showed up on the GDP statistics. But wake up, we earn money to live and live well, we don’t live to earn money.

>They keep the few corner stones…
:
:
>…because their grandpa did, no matter what.

Spot frikkin’ on. Brilliantly put. Cheers Antti.

Having the ability to make a choice is what counts. Here the unions make the deals and you better stay out of it.

So far my union (of which I am not a member) has given me two raises but has yet to stop me from working overtime. Funny.

3 (m): Manna-Apu is only partially tax-payer funded, so it is only partially evil. http://www.autaystavaa.fi/home.php?100242

As for the why of the queues for food aid (if anybody cares):

Short version:
Structural unemployment is here to stay, since there is no political interest in correcting the situation (it would decrease the dependence of people on the state and thus diminish the power of politicians, after all). Food lines are one of the ways for an unemployed to improve one’s quality of life, and longer one is unemployed, more one finds out about the lines, and more attractive they become.

Long version:
Public spending in Finland is over 50% of the GDP (based on 2002 data). This slows down creation of new jobs, among other things.

Tax burden on the wages of an average Finn is over 40% (in 2002).

Heavy wage and work market regulation has resulted in monstrous structural unemployment.

The Finnish school system does not produce independent people who can take care of or improve themselves. It produces people who believe that authorities are good and kind and they want what is best for everybody.

Since the Finnish politicians represent this authority, and they have a habit of lying and breaking promises, nobody seems to care for this principle: “Do what you promise to do”. So lying and breaking promises is becoming the law of the land in Finnish society. “Mitä isot edellä, sitä pienet perässä.”

When the above factors are combined, the “career choice” of learning the ins and outs of the welfare system and living as a leech can be quite attractive compared to finding a job, and spending 8 hours a day at it at the cost of significantly less leisure time. If part of that time is spent in the line of Manna-apu, some of that welfare payment can be used on other stuff that improves quality of life (soap, beer, whatever rocks the person’s boat).

MarkkuT – Interesting response. While not wanting to paint with too broad a brush the lack of independent thinking as this is also true in the US to a certain degree, though much of that sort of indoctrination is left to religion or TV rather than the state, I have also noticed this especially when questioning something I might find odd but which receives a very swift and negative emotional rebuke. Even my husband has vestiges of this at times which is like finding a land mine in a field of harmless flowers. Perhaps it is because the US is so full of flaws and so often criticised that I am far less touchy about such things, but I do find the lack of public interest in political debate and investigation into corruption rather curious.

WRT the welfare careerists – I saw a recent post somewhere from a German guy who had a bunch of Finnish friends in their early 30s who fit this profile and he was wondering if it was normal for 30-somethings in Finland to live on the dole, sleep all day and party all night. I suppose I was/am surprised that there seem to be few social barriers to being on the dole as well as few, if any, policies to move the slackers to a corporate payroll.

People rather often say that Finland is a great place to raise a kid, but I suppose that really depends on what you value. My husband and I had to discuss this at lenth as, although the state does offer quite a few benefits for people having children, I am more of the mind that, given the choice, I’d rather raise a child in the US even with the added expense and risks because I value more than just the welfare state benefits. Not to mention that when 22 arrives, they had better be living in their own house and be making their own money.

I suppose I was/am surprised that there seem to be few social barriers to being on the dole as well as few, if any, policies to move the slackers to a corporate payroll.

You live in a dreamworld, it seems. Something catches your attention and never mind how trivial it is it becomes all of sudden a general truth. What kind of education it was, again, that produces that kind of thinking?

And now, the regular disclaimer: Nope, Finland is not a perfect place, whatever you think the Finns think. Actually “the Finns” don’t think anything. Different Finns think differently, belive it or not, so much so that some 20 parties is needed to accomodate even a fraction of them. Even by reading this blog alone should make it clear that for every Finn thinking this or that way there is at least another one who thinks it’s actually absolutely the other way around. And although the overly patriotic nationalism of your native country is alien to us, we are not altogether free of that sin, quite a few of us think that although Finland basically is a crappy place in many respects and in particular when compared to more central and southern countries, the society still works pretty well most of the time. Does that make us indoctrinated fools? Perhaps so, but at least we don’t go around telling everyone that we live in the best place of the world, the country of the free and the brave or what not.

And, by the way, please, no comments on my talking about the US. It’s you who constatnly bring up the subject.

Spendler – you are the archetype of knee-jerk reactionary Finn. You seem to imbue value judgements in my words that aren’t there. The whole “…but we’re at least better than the US…” misses the point. You also need to read more carefully, but I suppose that would come with thinking instead of reacting.

>…the overly patriotic nationalism of your native country is alien to
>us…

Yeah? So why is it, then, that a guy who’s done the civil service instead of the army is regarded as being guilty of high treason in many circles around here in Finland?

hfb, you’re hurting my feelings. Your point in many posts have been that there is something wrong with Finland. That’s ok, there are many thing very wrong with Finland.

What seems to perplex you is that many Finns don’t understand it. They seem to be pretty happy with the way thing are. They even dare to point out that to you, particularly when you base your arguments on misunderstanding or dream-like myths. How could this be?

The explanation you have come up with in many posts is that the education system indoctrinates the Finns to believe in wrong things, not fully understanding how the world really is. This is a common argument among people like you, and yet it manages to piss me off every time – that is, as a person who has gone through the system. I’m pretty sure I can think as clearly as you with your American education.

I let you taste your own medicine and obviously you didn’t like it. Perhaps you can take this as an educational process.

And by the way, my political views have been described in many ways over the years but I think you’re the first one calling me a reactionary. What party did you vote for in the last elections?

Spendler, again, I don’t think you’re reading much or well here. Maybe you missed the comment above mine completely or, do native Finns get a pass on their opinions?

I’ve made no degrading personal comments, either as far as ‘taste my own medicine’ goes.

I suppose for every Finnpundit, there is an equal on the Finnish side.

So why is it, then, that a guy who’s done the civil service instead of the army is regarded as being guilty of high treason in many circles around here in Finland?

And what are those circles exactly? Perhaps I mingle with wrong people, but mostly people who done the military service seem to think that the civil service and the freedom it expresses is one of those things that are worth defending even with arms if necessary.

But, anyway, I was refering to the kind of outspoken patriotism the Amaricans so much fuss over.

Maybe you missed the comment above mine completely or, do native Finns get a pass on their opinions?

If you on the other hand tried to read what I wrote, you’ll notice, perhaps, that I wasn’t solely refering to “the comment above” but to “many comments”. There is a difference, don’t you agree.

And it’s still degrading to talk to a Finn about “the Finns” as people who have been brainwashed by the state – or whatever term you used.

spendler, a.k.a. USpundit, again, you weasel out of an answer to the question and instead resort to a bait and switch tactic. Again, I don’t think you read them.

>And what are those circles exactly?

Well, you’ve got a bunch of older conservatives, particularly in the rural areas of the country – the so-called stupid white men as Michael Moore put it – who disapprove _strongly_ of anyone who hasn’t gone to the army! And yes, I’ve unfortunately met a few of those recnecks myself – wasn’t nice, wasn’t pretty… wasn’t sober either, because me and them good ole boys was in a pub in Pohjanmaa at the time

But yep, that’s them cowboys. The younger generation, OTOH, is a bit broader in their views as you know…

“I suppose I was/am surprised that there seem to be few social barriers to being on the dole as well as few, if any, policies to move the slackers to a corporate payroll.”

There is the lutheran work ethic. It seems to be enough for most people. I don’t know any “yhteiskunnan loinen” but they are generally frowned on.

The lack of the political will I blame on the zombies voting the big 3.

hfb, is it possible that you don’t remember writing stuff like: “There is no rational thought. There is only closely held self-deception.” or “if I have learned anything in my time here it is that Finland and the US are far more similar than not, especially now when questioning the status quo in the US has become likened to treason.” or “And what you say about Finnish food?! Why you hate freedom?!” or “the lack of independent thinking as this is also true in the US to a certain degree, though much of that sort of indoctrination is left to religion or TV rather than the state” or “for all the education in Finland, it seems to produce a lot of people who trust blindly rather than question convention.” and so on.

Now that you have been reminded, can you honestly say that there is a group of people in the world who would not at least potentially feel offended when told that they are a bunch of brain-washed idiots. WIth such emotional skills no wonder that … well let’s not go into that.

Discussing with somebody like you with such bad memory reminds me of the old Monty Python piece:

M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven’t.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn’t.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn’t
A: I did!
M: You didn’t!
A: I’m telling you I did!
M: You did not!!

Instead of perhaps quoting me out of context and ignoring the finnish post above mine who phrased his comment far more broadly than I did to make for a personal attack, you might actually provide some rational argument to dispute my observations or even ask maybe what has drawn me to this conclusion. I don’t see much independent thought in that at all.

The picture the quotes above draw is propably to much for your self-image – it’s bigotry – so I understand you hide behind the “out of context” defense. Anybody interested can check out the original context but the message is pretty clear even without it.

Here’s a graph of the values in different countries:
http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/images/feature_pics/valuemap.gif
The Finns are less individualistic than most other protestant or English-speaking peoples, no big surprise there. That doesn’t mean necessarily that the Finns would be self-deceptive, not being able to question the status quo, blindly trusting and however you choose to libel us, though. Perhaps we just happen to be a pretty satsfied bunch of people – as we on average indeed are according to several surveys. And pretty rational, too.

If that’s not good enough for you, how do you actually see human beings in general? Does somebody know what’s good for him or her or is it just the Finns who are ignorant in this respect?