Now you have my goat up. Just tried calling the local health centre for an appointment concerning joint inflammation. As it’s not “an emergency” I will have to wait until 5.5.2006 before I can see a doctor: Not an emergency? Can’t lift anything, can’t run and in constant pain but can still work and pay my taxes (their salary) so wait 2 weeks. All appointment times are booked by drunks, bums and retirees bleeding the free system while hard working tax paying citizens get screwed. Welfare? A world model? ME think not…..

Oh well, I had a fairly serious illness for 2 years with regular 3 month checkups at Jorvi general hospital: most efficient, no waiting times, no costs (well, 26 euros actually for each visit). The system is getting worse gradually, but the basic functions are still there. As for dentists the whole thing is simply a political sham. A nice, popular law was introduced with no actual intent to take it seriously. You better have an emergency or six months to several years time to wait… Phil, be a good libertarian and use the private sector.

Calling a city dentist… You can book denture fitting while you’re at it.

Weird for you. I get an annual demand that I come to the dentist for a regular clean up. I guess that rather than a systemtic failure it’s shortage in certain regions. Just saying before some retards come in spouting about how universal health care is doomed or some such shit.

I got my wisdoom teeth removed really fast too. I guess it’s better up here in Vasa.

“All appointment times are booked by drunks, bums and retirees bleeding the free system”

I doubt that it’s like you describe. There are probably people in the line before you who really have a more severe problem. The drunks and the bums are somewhere else, they do not care about taking care of themselves in the first place you know.

I haven’t been to a dentist in ages either (about 15 years now). Daily cleaning and healthy food is enough for me. Maybe your expectation of the level of service you can get with taxes is too high. Going to a dentist for a cleaning is a new concept to me. Or maybe the dentists are too busy running their private clinics. Who knows…

no, they are the ones in front of other patients being treated for self induced injuries caused through the consumption of State sponsered alcohol and the accidents it brings.

I agree with you that the system doesn’t exactly work well. It’s kafkaesque to be told ‘yes, we’ll have time for you…four months from now. What was it you had? two small holes, half an hour’s appointment will be enough for you.” Yes, unless in four months the small holes have become big holes and the whole hassle needs to be started over again and again and again…

I can’t quite remember how it works but don’t you just go to a private one and then KELA pays half or something. I hadn’t been for ages and the dentist did a few fillings and such and it really wasn’t very expensive at all. I’m pretty certain KELA pays some.

Phil, be a good libertarian and use the private sector.

Yup, and I will. And I’ll get incredible service, like I always do when I visit the private doctor.

I’m pretty certain KELA pays some.

Yeah, they do pay some.

Maybe your expectation of the level of service you can get with taxes is too high. Going to a dentist for a cleaning is a new concept to me

You must be British!

Phil…don’t count on that ‘incredible service’ honey. I had a 300 euro bill from a really, really mediocre dentist for two teeth spackled and a 20-minute ‘cleaning’.

And KELA doesn’t pay that much.

Auriga (6): Cleaning of the teeth improves the chance of successful dental hygiene at home. Whitening tooth-pastes can ameliorate the situation, but they’re not always sufficient. And I enjoy my smile more when I know that my teeth do not have dark stripes next to gums.

Toby (9): Yep, Kela pays a portion… of the Kela list price which does not coincide with the actual price. So if you can afford to use a private dentist after paying a great deal of taxes for the public system, you only pay three-quarters of the market price. Big whoop-de-doo. A kick in the teeth, really

I’d rather keep another 25% of my taxes (the portion that goes to social and health care) and use it to pay for the full price of a check-up at a private doctor (and save the rest for a serious future illness and any periods of unemployment, thus taking full responsibility for my own life). However, I do not have that choice. Instead, I’m forced to pay twice if I want my teeth cleaned (once to the public system and once to the private clinic).

The public health system has actually let me down two times so far. Fortunately their failure only reduced the quality of life instead of killing outright. I suffered from frequent infections of inner ear as a child. In the 70s they were treated by puncturing the ear drum (to relieve the pain) and with antibiotics. As a result, I got permanent hearing damage (30% reduction of hearing ability in left ear).

In my teens the inner ear infections turned into outer ear infections (go figure) and the sinus infections started instead. They were treated by irrigating (the nasal passage was anesthetized and a thick, hollow needle was punched through the bone to the sinusoidal cavity for flushing away the infected matter with a half-liter of saline solution). There is a surgical treatment for this chronic syndrome, but an average of seven sinus infections per year (with a minimum of two weekly flushings per infection) was apparently not enough for that.

This continued until I was 23 and I happened to read an article about effects of milk proteins on some drinkers of milk: swelling of mucous membranes, exposure to ear infections, the whole nine yards. I quit drinking milk and from that day forward I have only had one instance of ear infection (right after drinking two glasses of milk with flapjacks… mmm, flapjacks) and one instance of sinus infection (a liter of yoghurt may have promoted that one).

So you might say that I’m not too enamored of the Finnish health care system…

So essentially you blame them for not knowing something that was probably not known at the time and likely a new discovery. And it’s not like your ear problems would have been better with a private doctor, they would have punctured your ears too. Thats standard practice. They did it on me and I didn’t suffer from it. Maybe they could have magicked your ear problems away, or let it burst on it’s own, causing scarring.

And this taking responsibility of your life isn’t outweighed by taking responsibility for your countrys wellbeing. Remove public healthcare..you might as well privatize the police.
A private only system would leave adequate healthcare to only those who could afford it and ordinary families would go bankrupt due to health costs when something bad happened. That would suck for the economy to destitute shitloads of families who would otherwise be productive citizens.

No lets cut all the fat away from all the useless things the goverment spends money on.

@ ozy: You should provide some convincing evidence as the basis for your stories.

I think that you juts consider everyone else’s problems inferior to yours, no matter what that person is suffering from.

MarkkuT:

I don’t have any dark stripes in my teeth, but then again I don’t drink coffee or alcohol. And my father is the same, he doesn’t go to the dentist either and has no health problems. Don’t know if I’m a freak or is just evolution (or ID).

But I don’t really think it is the responsibility of the state of polish my teeth bright. It is my responsibility to take care of my health.

I have always received professional help from the health care when I have been sick. Also in Espoo.

Cheer up Phil. I had a friend (aged 42) here in Germany waiting for a lung transplant. They told him it would take a year to find a match. After two years he passed away still waiting.

Regarding your plight, do what Brits have been doing for awhile now… jump on a charter flight to Prague and pay the dentist in cash.

Cheer up Phil. Remember your taxes paid for those other folks to get in line ahead of you.

So please tell me again, what exactly did you pay for? A long line to wait in? A Gov guy to tell you others have priority, and that he will tell you how he is going to spend your tax money?

Yup Phil, thanks to your and several others taxes someone didn’t die because he couldn’t afford treatment. For shame!

By the way, the more I think about this I think teeth cleaning is a luxury service proably not intended to be picked up by the public system anyway and likely reserved for private dentists. I am pretty lucky to get annual check up and cleaning from our public system.

Oh.. now I understand

You all pay for a service, and then don’t get it.

What a sham. Unless your one of the folks who don’t pay, and get something for FREE.

FREE

FREE

Shut up retard. I work and I fucking pay.

I don’t think every euro anyone has is well earned or something. Some people have money because their parents are/were rich. Some people have money because they’ve found a job or have been qualified for one thanks to a good education. Some people are students and get benefits because they will be the payers in the future. Etc. Money doesn’t tend to go to those who deserve it, that’s what the welfare system tries to correct, I think.

Believe or not, there are people in need that didn’t cause their own problems at all.

Not in my area. I can get an appointment with my “omalääkäri” (own doctor, public) when ever I need. When I need it, I can get a call time the same or the next day and she calls me (not the other way around). Espoo must really suck.

Åboy, just visit one of these places and open your eyes. You’ll see the people in there being served and judge for yourself. It doesn’t add up. These non-contributors are gettinng the service we pay for yet are unable to get. As for Pave (23) lets punish people for being innocent victims of well off families!!! Are you real? What total bastards, I mean imagine having rich parents??? UNFAIR!!! People that are studying will be contributors in the future? In Finland? Where are the jobs now and more so in the future? “Money doesn’t tend to go those who deserve it, that’s what the welfare system tries to correct, I think”…….. Well think about this. I work and earn and pay tax yet am too “well off” for my family to get any of what I pay while everyone else that doesn’t contribute gets it for free. Are you telling me I don’t deserve access to the system I and others like me pay for? I believe North Korea and Cuba are beautiful this time of the year. Take your views and move there. See you back next Christmas my friend.

“Åboy, just visit one of these places and open your eyes. You’ll see the people in there being served and judge for yourself. It doesn’t add up. These non-contributors are gettinng the service we pay for yet are unable to get.”

I think that I know fairly well what I’m talking about. I’ve had my share of health center visits.

First of all, pointing out the obvious: I would say that don’t judge a book by it’s cover. Someone who in your opinion looks like a “bum” might be a company CEO or a highly esteemed professional.

Second, how on earth do you presume to know how long those people, who are being served before you, have vaited for their service?

Thirdly, a comparison: Even though I have no children of my own and probably won’t have in a long while I gladly pay taxes to support the families with children. Is this crazy and unfair? I don’t think so. We live in a society and as members of that society I think that we all have a responsibility to take care of eachother and help one another. I think it’s right to help those that are in the need for help.

Is the cocept of taking responsibility for yourself too hard to grasp or do you nead these Gov people to aid you? Can you or do you do anything for yourself without consulting a brother citizen? Grow up and look at the real world. As for your bums and CEO comment, no I doubt it. Most CEOs don’t walk around smelling of booze with their pants soiled in human waste. Not even Finnish ones

Q:How many libertarians does it take to stop a Panzer division?
A:None, obviously market forces will take care of it.

I don’t believe that the average person using the healthcare services provided by government funding is totally lacking in personal responsibility. I think that it’s just easier for you to view people as lazy and irresponsible. That way you don’t have to face the fact that some people actually are in the need of some outside help, even though they’ve tried to get their act together and partially succeeded in it.

I wouldn’t want to live in a society where everybody are left to fend for themselves and starving in the gutter in the case that they meet unfortunate circumstances. Sometimes bad things happen to people no matter how hard they try to make it, and in those instances I think it’s only fair that others help them. Trust me, when it comes time for them to help others, they’ll remember the help and support they got themselves.

Captain

“I word and I pay”, and just how long do you have to stand in line?

I guess you all miss the point. Why have a line at all?

If you are the worker and thus the payer, why don’t YOU get to go to the head of the line?

I just can’t figure this one out.

Please,, I need help here with your system.

Explain to me why the guy who paid the health care bills is not at the head of the line getting his MRI in one day, not the 6 months like in Canada?

Its just that simple?

A friend uses a following method: He reserves doctor’s appointments like year in advance, for every month. Then, when the actual date rolls up and he has no issues at the moment (ie. does not need the doctor) he just calls and cancels it (and some lucky sap gets a “cancellation appointment”). And if there IS something up at the time then he goes and gets the treatment.

(No one has ever asked “how did you know you will have this infection you got like two days ago when you were reserving the appointment like a year ago?”)

winter, it’s like this:

Persons A, B, C, D, E, F and G all collect some money to form a big sum of money. This bigger sum is then used to help anyone of that group when he/she hits hard times. The money that they gather together is more than what each of them individually could afford. By working together, helping eachother, they guarantee that each of them get the help they need when they need it.

Now, when the time comes to evaluate who gets what medical services it’s judged by the immediacy of the problem, not by how much each in the group has paid. This way the most urgent cases get treated first and the not-so-urgent cases come after that. In this way the people most in need of the help get it and those with bucks (but with inferior problems) can’t jump past the poor people in the queue (with bigger problems) just because they are richer.

Aboy

That sure sounds like by Blue Cross Blue Shile Policy. Except I have great service and no lines, and we all pay the same amount for the same level of service.

Why again do you have any lines if your system is so good?

Some problems have started to surface already but that’s not because of some inherent flaw in the welfare system. On the contrary, it’s because the welfare system is being dismantled by liberalization and privatization. A lot of cuts has been made on the funding of the public sector and they are even discussing lowering the taxes, taking even more funds out of the public services.

In other words, the current situation is due to the intentional downgrading of the welfare services. The services are not working as they should because politicians and market force enthusiasts have already managed to sabotage the system.

By the way, the more I think about this I think teeth cleaning is a luxury service proably not intended to be picked up by the public system anyway and likely reserved for private dentists.

Yes, that is the ideal tactic for the welfare state, just keep taking basic services away from people to save money.

Well, at least in some cases cleaning teeth is a preventive measure to avoid inflammation of the gums. Quite the same way that brushing your teeth every day helps. And if 100 Euros every year on a scheduled appointment keep me from having to beg for an unscheduled one when having actual pain due to some inflammation, I decided for myself that’s worth the money. Going to a private dentist for this, as it seems to be the standard in the captial area, is quite ok for me. One way or the other I have to pay for it anyway. In case of a private doctor, I can at least choose to which level I want to spend money on preventive appointments.

I like the swiss model quite a lot. In which you basically have a mandatory health insurance: private insures compete for the lowest price for a set of mandatory medical measures – dental not included. That pretty much takes care of providing basic health care. It’s a matter of public opinion what should be included in basic health care and what shouldn’t. They just decided that dental stuff isn’t included. I also thing that insurers cannot deny you as a customer (e.g. due to existing health conditions leading to higher expenses).

If you’re worried about not having dental care in your basic insurance take a supplementary insurance for it. The state does its job: providing some basic level for the less fortunate people in the society while at the same time allowing you as an ordinary wage earner to mae you own decisions on how much you want to spend on health care, esp. prevention.

I guess you all miss the point. Why have a line at all?

I just can’t figure this one out.

I guess you missed reality. Like there wouldn’t be a line in a private system unlesss you are content to let people die outside, and at any rate there would be a line anyway, just the rich would go first instead of the sick. I guess some things are worth more than money. It’s a damn sick fucking world but thats how it is.

P.S. For future reference I do about the same kind of work Phil does. IT stuff, coding for the companys website and internal systems, designing, administrative stuff. Thats how it is at a small firm, I get to run everything and get to become a bit versed in all areas. I do think I like the tech side better than photoshopping and working in inDesign though.

ALso, fucking cookies on my home comp…

Oh Åboy… “Persons A, B, C, D, E, F and G all collect some money to form a big sum of money. This bigger sum is then used to help anyone of that group when he/she hits hard times. The money that they gather together is more than what each of them individually could afford. By working together, helping eachother, they guarantee that each of them get the help they need when they need it.”
Just as I said to an earlier post, North Korea and Cuba are meant to be quite beautiful at this time of the year…. As person H I say who cares about A-G? Let me look after myself and determine what to do with my needs and why don’t you learn to do likewise? Oh, I forgot. You’re not taught or allowed to think for yourself from the time you go to school until the day you need aged care in this country are you?

Yes, that is the ideal tactic for the welfare state, just keep taking basic services away from people to save money.

A public health care system as I see it isn’t supposed to do everything, only the basics, a teeth cleaning I can see as part of an annual check up but I don’t see why you’d go to the public system for an entierly elective procedure. There are loads of elective procedures that could / should be covered by an additional private market.

The public side should always be minimal and sleek to ensure it is effective at what it sets out to do, which is provide the basic services and do a good job of it without bogging the tax payers down.

Now if we got rid of alot of useless stuff we could focus the money on the important things like healthcare, infrastructure and education and keeping it good and possibly even get some tax cuts out of it. Alot of things in our goverment should be privatized.

A few years back, I fucked up my knee pretty badly playing basketball, and being the stupid twat that I am, I didn’t have any insurance. I went to the ER, and the on-duty surgeon made the ‘drawer test’ and informed me that there is a 90% chance I have a severed ACL. After they found out that I don’t need sick leave cause I’m unemployed, they decided to not to operate immediately, but scheduled me for a magnetic something scan almost four months later. Four months as an invalid (difficult to seek/find a job), and then looking forwards to another three to six months awaiting surgery. No thank you. Luckily I had funds for a so-called ‘erikoismaksuluokka’ operation (the patient pays for the surgeon’s fee, but the surgeon is free to schedule the operation). Dunno if that’s an option in the dental scene..

@Spring. Yes the swiss are actually quite the role model for other countries, they seem to have a very good balance being public and private going on.

Winter just do not understand one point about US taxation system: it is way too low to support the government in the long run and it is sure way to bankrupting the nation for good.

Just paying interests is your third biggest expense in the budget already in these times of relatively low interest rates. The biggest expense is of course D-FENS! You guys at your side of the pond are so scared that you have to outspend everybody else combined in the planet to weapons. Forget education, social services and pretty much everything else (NASA: 15 billion) that would actually help poor and middle class people.

One comparison: Finnish government yearly debt interests payments are about 8 percent of the budget, US is already paying over 17 percent of it’s yearly budget (no principal paid at all, 352 billion dollars in the fiscal year of 2005 alone) plus taking more debt about 300-400 BILLION dollars per year, not taking into account Iraq and Afganistan (not included in the budget).

Let say the interest rates of 10 Year U.S. Treasury Notes goes from current 4,95 percent (Oct 2004 it was 4,2) to 7,0 percent -> that is roughly 150 BILLION dollars more, meaning about 22-25 percent of the whole budget going to just to pay interests.

Any kind of crisis in the economy and you guys are just fucked, the percentage could go to maybe up to 40-50 percent, banana republic style. Guess what, the housing bubble did just bursts…housing prices are dropping like stone. Good luck, winter. You are gonna needed it.

This all is like a guy with multiple credit cards and 20-25 percent of yearly income going just to pay interests and fees of those credit cards. Is he rich ? Hell no, just another idiot.

The taxation wouldn’t be a problem if the Republican party in charge where actually true to their motto of small goverment, but they’ve been in the autocratic bigass goverment gear for several decades now, yet they still try to come off as that old small-goverment party.

That whole trickle-down-economics thing that Reagan I’ve heard economists say could have worked, but not if you don’t cut goverment spending to match, instead he did the fucking opposite and ran up a huge deficit and other useless pork-barrel spending.

tim73. Your year of birth or IQ? Get another credit card idiot. A global economy is what we live in and money talks, BS walks. Rightly or wrongly Finland shall be walking

A public health care system as I see it isn’t supposed to do everything, only the basics, a teeth cleaning I can see as part of an annual check up but I don’t see why you’d go to the public system for an entierly elective procedure.

I agree actually, I don’t see why all these little trips to the doctor could be handled by the private companies. If you need some larger surgery, then maybe the state can step in and fund it.

But this teeth cleaning IS something the welfare state offers, it’s done in many other municipalities, Espoo is just one that’s waaaay too underfunded.

Tim73

I agree at 17% we pay, is way to much in interest.

But its the only way to keep the liberals from spending more, by capping the money supply. By the way the Liberals in the last 30 years spent most of that money. Now in fairness for the last 10 years the right wing has helped, even giving old folks a new drug bill NOBODY even asked for.

But then again refigure your numbers against GDP, and I think we are about the same. So one might just say we can afford the bill as our free labor system without government corruption (See your long line, wait to die, health system) works well.

Look Captain

Reagan ran up those numbers and won a war. I think that’s a nice trade off.

The silly left was screaming bloody murder, when Reagan was spending and making speeches about “Tear down this wall”. Then again Reagan had the vision of what it takes to win, and the liberal left just thinks good old containment is the answer. Guess again, appeasement does not work.

Please learn the lesson.

Don’t waive the French white flag of surrender.

Why does every thread, no matter what the topic, have to spiral into the same old ranting match about the pros/cons of the capitalist and the welfare state. The same arguments have been made over and over again. What does Reagan have to do with dental care and how it’s handled in Finland? Does anybody have any ideas how to we could actually resolve/alleviate the current problems?

Oh here we go with the Reagan-masturbation and those “he won the cold war! Hurrrr!!!” stuff. The soviet union would have killed itself mainly thanks to internal reforms brought on by Gorbachev anyway so no it wasn’t a fair trade. It was still just as stupid then as it was now. You either do one thing(spend) or the other(cut taxes), not both at the same time. You sound like the communist hordes would have overrun europe or some nonsense like that if Reagan hadn’t pissed away a few billions on things like the star wars program.

Haha and “french white flag of surrender”, I see we have here a real fucking jingoistic flag waver, a walking, talking, Reagan loving stereotype.

What does Reagan have to do with dental care and how it’s handled in Finland?

It was a response to the poster above me, but then some jingoistic crazy person caught me sinning by talking about his messiah.

I guess the Captain is right. So just were was the EU when it came time to do the job in Bosnia?

Oh… you forgot to spend the wasted money? Or were you just to smart to not spend the money?

By the way I do like your answers, just they don’t fit the way the world actually operates.

@Captain Haddock

I didn’t mean you in particular, of course . I’m just a little frustrated that many of the potentially interesting and meaningful threads mutate into a verbal group wanking.

Captain: Ray-gun is The God for Republicans, he won USSR all by himself according the new “Republican History” book, next to that “New Earth History”.

winter: “But then again refigure your numbers against GDP, and I think we are about the same.”.

No, check your facts first. You can always count on Republicans not bothering to check the facts or do the math. That is why they “feel” that evolution is wrong, global warming is one big liberal conspiracy , trade deficit is a sure sign of strength, war is peace and all that BS.

So what this all got to do with Phil’s teeth? Nothing, Phil should ask his girlfriend to clean his teeth for him if it is soooo difficult Manly man go to the dentist only if something hurts like hell, you little wussy

I’m talking on intuition now, those who know the real statistics, feel free to speak up.

To be honest, my feeling is that we are not living in that deep welfare state anymore, also known as Kekkoslovakia. I think the high noon of that model was on the Koivisto’s first term. PM Esko Aho even declared the ending of the nordic model in the beginning of the 90′s. It seems that they still keep talking it and keep the facade on just not to scare everyone and keep the trade unions at bay. Those noisy old left-wingers of the 60′s have already a fat stomach and wallet to keep them quiet.

The capitalism proponents here are making mockery, that the government should tax more, more and more to keep the inefficient, no good public services afloat. Well, here are the news: They are not going to do that. They don’t want to piss off Jorma Ollila et al., OECD or some other powerful organizations with an ideology. They don’t decrease the taxes either, but they are selling away the state property, for example, companies such as Sonera, Metso or Rautaruukki, which were the social and economical cornerstones in the Kekkoslovakian model. And they are downscaling all public services, give or take some cosmetics.

As a result, we are stuck somewhere in the gray zone between the two models, having probably the worst of the both. As we are in Finland, I suspect, they have to drive the remains of the welfare model into deep crisis to be able to get rid of it, and that is, where we are heading.

I think we should change the name of our country from Finland to Kekkoslovakkia and dig up his casket and start worshipping him as our God! Then we could start spreading the message of Kekkonen to all around the world until there would be only one Kekkonen to rule them all.

This way we could solve all the problems of the world, since there would be no more divisions of idealogy or religion and even the bald men could get some Tush, since they would look like.. Kekkonen..

Kekkonen..Kekkonen.. Kekkonen!

Lets summarize

1) There are long lines in Government run Health care

2) To Get around those lines, one either needs to place a reservation for each month a year in advance, or hope the guy holding a reservation dies, or go private.

3) Hope some Government guy will let you have an operation before your time is up. If to many more qualified (Sicker) folks are ahead of you, just start planning the funeral.

4) You love this system, and it works so well there are no complaints.

5) Your substandard health care hides the long lines. By just calling you (Phone call is OK) to touch base, so they can say they made contact and move you to another longer line.

And the kicker is, you paid for this incredible, super good, service?

Why?

Winter. . It is pride. People in general are not too keen on admitting their mistakes. All people. You see it in America, you see it in Africa , you see it in China you see it amongst the muslims. It is a human condition.

If you as a American would go to critisize our style of governing to some typical Finn, he would probably not say a word, thinking hard how to insult you without losing face. Then saying something about how America is actually the country in need of critisism.

That person would not entertain your critisism for one iota.

It is hard to take critisism coming from foreigners.

Especially when pride is one of the few things you have.

Now imagine a country full of people whose grandparents or great grandparents were poor, jealous of the countries that were saved from the ravages of war..

Oh how they loved to see the “tuhlaajapoika” or “prodigal son” coming back from the US who did not make it there. And how they hated to see the ones who came for a short visit to decalre that they had found the promised land.

Because every time that happened, it chipped a little corner out of that old saying “it is like winning in a lottery to be born in Finland”.

Finns are a proud bunch.

But then again, so are the Americans.

I would like to see a more globalized world. I hope that the internet will not make people hate each other, but rather, enable us to learn and live with each other.

But Sometimes it feels, we are lightyears from that happening.

If I were you, I’d call a private dentist and get reimbursed by the state for a big part of your expenses. Whining will never get you where you want to be – healthy and pain-free! Health care is way less expensive in Finland than in the U.S. -with higher standards backed up by modern technology! Make the best of it!

So, this too has devolved into a Finland sucks/USA sucks/Finland sucks… war of half-thought out arguments. If you all can’t see that all countries suck a little, all economic and political systems suck a little, then you, my friends, are blind.

I’ve been told by a local health center in Helsinki that routine visits to public dentists are really only available for children. I have also been told by private healthcare in the US that I would have to wait 6 months to see a doctor for something that may not have been immediately life-threatening but was none-the-less important to me.

So, you have to pay for private dentist in Finland to get timely care. Suck it up and deal, or leave. Just hope to hell you don’t end up unemployed in the US, when health insurance (which often when employed is greatly subsidized by the employer) will cost you around $1000 per month for a family of 4.

Yes, I thought we were talking about teeth.

“By the way, the more I think about this I think teeth cleaning is a luxury service proably not intended to be picked up by the public system anyway and likely reserved for private dentists. I am pretty lucky to get annual check up and cleaning from our public system.”

Why do you need to see two sets of dentists/doctors. Do you really want to sit through getting two sets of x-rays as that’s the first thing dentists always do! Two sets of dental records; one for the state dentist to handle the basic stuff, and onother set for the one to do your cleaning and braces(I assume that’s a luxury too.) Sounds like a wate of time, energy, and wholely inefficient. Of course your private dentist can also be your public dentist too, just after he hs seen his minimum patients.

I think dentists will tell you that annual (or bi-annual) teeth cleaning is not a luxury. There is a real point to having it done. The time getting the cleaning probably takes less time than filling the cavities and other problems that the cleaning prevents. This is an educated guess, but probably a good one considering that dental insurance in general does not cover much, but they always cover checkups and cleanings.

Any dentists care to comment?

Please,, I need help here with your system.

Explain to me why the guy who paid the health care bills is not at the head of the line

If you have a family it shouldn’t be too difficult to figure out. I mean, if your kid is dying and you have the flu, I don’t suppose you don’t see the doctor first just because you have money and the kids don’t. Now you just have to expand that idea to a whole nation. If you don’t want to do that, don’t ever move away from where you live because that’s pretty much the way the civilized world does it everywhere.

By the way, dentist serveces for all, not just the kids, is a pretty new thing, something like five years old. The system doesn’t work well – yet – but better than the previous one, when many people didn’t see a dentist ever because it’s so expensive.

for a big part of your expenses.

Big part my ass Zach. I actually have the bill right here,
checkup + filling redone.
Dentist charge: 134 euros.
KELA rate: 62,40
KELA rebate: 37,45

Yeah, so I am getting 60% back allright – from 45% of the bill!

The comments made by STP were top class!

He definitely deserves to use the name “Finnish honesty”

Lets summarize again:

We both pay – no disputes there

Yours goes to a Government that then decides who gets in line where.

Mine goes to an Insurance agency, who determines what it will pay for the procedure and pays that amount. No fiddling with lines here, just find in an open market, your doctor.

Your money pays for all folks who just show up.

Mine pays for my family first, then their are those hidden taxes to pay for folks who just walk in and are seen by law. So in effect all folks who show up get service.

There are probably less incentives (Discussion on dental cleaning above) in a Government program to “clean up your own act”.

I don’t have to play any games with reservations.

I love my system for its service and level of care.

You love your system for its service to all, even when you are standing way way back at the end of the line.

And we both plan on staying put. I mean in the sense that yours will go more Government run, mine will go more private. Did I get this one wrong – are you headed back to a controlling government system, and killing of those evil private doctors side work? Or is the private side growing due to the evil Government workers saying who can, and who can’t get care?

“You love your system for its service to all, even when you are standing way way back at the end of the line.”

The private doctors are within the system also here. You just pay some more and in most cases, there is no line anymore.

“Did I get this one wrong – are you headed back to a controlling government system”

The doctors on the public sector don’t go to play golf in the end of the day. They start again in their prosperous private practice. There is no government able to take that away from them. How many doctors there are in the parliament?

The government does not decide your place in the line, it is always the doctor. My mother was diagnosed with melanoma, when she was 73 and she got all necessary treatments and scans within few days. With children, I waited about one month for a minor surgery. Both on the public sector.

The idea was that you get in most cases a reasonable treatment on public sector. If you are not happy with that, you can pay some more and get what you want. Both ways are perfectly OK within the system But like I said before, I have a feeling they are downscaling the public services…

You don´t really seem to realize that the whole public dentistry for
everyone hasn´t even existed for more that something like five years. 40+ people (and earlier everybody except school children, students and war veterans) just used private, and KELA disn´t pay a single cent. This “everything is free” and “I have payed for it in taxes” attitude actually pisses me. Necessities are free, but teeth cleaning doesn´t fit among necessities in my books. But I get it done twice a year. Privately, and it does not cost much.

I have not even imagined using public dentistry after I passed 25,
but the difference to earlier is, that now I at least get a little
something back.

When something is urgent you also get it done urgently. And
practically free. A friend of mine was diagnosed with prostate cancer
just just a month ago. The doctor gave him one week to ponder the
choices, and two weeks ago he was operated. Just two weeks from the
diagnoses. Some measly 20+ euros per day, with full surgical team,
five days in the hospital, a “my own nurse”, multiple meals, all the
possible medication, patholocists post surgery check, physical trainer and his post surgery progtram, and so on. He has only praised the hospital. A public hospital.

I am so old that I have lived also the times when “welfare state”
didn´t exist, after all the whole thing is only 30 years old. There
was no public dentistry, public nurseries for everybody,
“toimeentulotuki”, “vanhempainraha”, “kotihoidontuki”, “opintoraha”,
“asumistuki” and the rest. Maternity leave was three months. It was a harsh, unforgiving system. Really “crush the weak for all I care”
world. Present day in Finland is way more civilized than Kekkoslovakia was.

According to the Ministry of Health and Social Affairs there are 265 open places for dentists in the public health centres.

http://www.stm.fi/Resource.phx/publishing/documents/6405/index.htx

The number of dentists seems to be going down both in public and private sector according to The Finnish Union of Dentist. Total reduction 133 dentists in five years (2000-2005).

http://www.hammasll.fi/

My guess is that we are going towards more privatisation and that we will import dentists from poorer countries in the coming years. Too bad. If the money is the only thing that talks, the really poor won’t be able to even walk.

Summary again

You are headed to a private system. The public one seems to be broken.

Your doctors probably make more in the private side, so do they get to do that full time? Or are there restrictions?

I saw this happen in a business I ran. First, when we were a start up, we took Government funded folks. But as the private side filled up, we just stopped accepting Government vouchers. No zero, nada, one is now allowed due to the low pay provided.

Is thats whats happening in your system? It a way for the Government to get out of the business, but it does take some time.

You are headed to a private system. The public one seems to be broken.

Heh. Are you imbecile or what?

…a way for the Government to get out of the business, but it does take some time.

No, actually, I think winter hit the nail on the head on this one. It did not occur to me that the increasing cutbacks in services in Finland are only accomplished when the planners (both left wing and right wing) know that a private sector can take up the slack.

It seems this is already happening behind closed doors, but not discussed in public (though I do hear about it from a doctor in Finland who is a family friend).

The reason avoiding debate might be desired is, of course, that the taxation levels become less justified. But eventually the debate can’t be avoided, so the Left’s strategy, at present, is to continually stress the moral imperative of universal health care, as if that had anything to do with efficiency. The right’s strategy is only to stress more cuts, and empower a willing private sector, which will be dependent on consumers having more after-tax money to spend on their services.

Yes, I would say the public healthcare system is in transition, which takes some time. Where the new balance point between the public and private side is going to be in the future, I don’t know. It depends on politicians. Probably they don’t discard the public system completely, but they think there is not much of a marginal to expand it either.

Press says on #70, that old “Kekkoslovakia” was a harsh place. Indeed it was, but the direction then was towards more welfare services and for example, if you went crazy, they took you away (hahaa) to a mental hospital. Now the public healthcare is more priorized and the direction is towards less services. If you go crazy, you are on low priority. They give you some pills and tell you to go home. A short while ago, this kind of a case was trying to get to the mental ward here in Oulu and they didn’t accept him in. After this he went to the court house and run amok smashing up everything on his way. This time he was accepted.

Also, say, you are a cancer patient and there is a treatment costing 30.000 EUR / year, which probably gives you a couple years more. No way the public side is going to pay that. You have to buy your years yourself. If you are poor, you die a bit earlier.

The public system is more or less designed to keep the big health meters of the entire nation in the green zone. You want some individuality, you pay a bit more.

The whole ‘future of healthcare’ issue is so complex that even the experts can not tell what is going to happen. And I am not an expert. We’ll just have to wait and see.

I am also fed up with the Finnish public health care “services”. I hardly used it – sometime normal emergencies required sitting in the waiting hall for hours. Dental care experience: I am going to a private doctor. The invoice against the “Kela taksa” (the valid price defined sometime around 1917 for the type of service) are of course very different. I usually get around 25-30% of refund (this is 60% of the taksa). My husband tested the queue for dentist in Porvoo. He waited for an appointment for half a year, in a 40.000 inhabitant city! The Terveyskeskus doctor made the check, found some minor non-urgent fixing and proposed… another appointment in about four months, … or next Friday in his private enterprise. My husband took the second option, but this is so unfair! The doc uses the KELA crap as a private channel to lure customers.

I tested the speed of service once again. I wanted to visit a terveyskeskus suuhygenisti to make the proper cleaning instead of paying for it 100 Euro. Not urgent, but yes, it prevents gum problems and this should not be luxury in the 21st century. But… you cannot get to the suuhoitaja before visiting the KELA doctor. Thus, they promised to inform me in autumn, when a possible appointment is possible… I called them on 1. of March.

Our company provides good healthcare in other issues, which is by Diacor and most of the specialist costs are covered. The public sector sucks! It is a myth. But see the statistics, once 86% of Finns are happy with the services, Finland is on top of some EU statistics regarding social system, then again none of my Finnish friend would ever recommend the public health care and Finland is listed as “developing country” regarding prevention and healthcare.

A private insurance is so expensive and hardly covers anything. Germany is upset with the changes in their healthcare system, but I felt safe there. Here I don’t.

Captain Haddock (15): And this taking responsibility of your life isn’t outweighed by taking responsibility for your countrys wellbeing.

I’m definitely taking responsibility for my country’s wellbeing. The current system is based on economic fallacies and outright lies, and will eventually lead to complete destruction. It must be dismantled so that the country’s destruction won’t destroy all of the people, as well.

Auriga (17): It is my responsibility to take care of my health.

I fully agree. However, the state takes away the money I have earned under the justification that they will provide me with dental care, among other things. Otherwise I could easily afford private dental care whenever I feel I need it. And in the current situation I must get private dental care if I want to get my teeth cleaned, and I cannot always afford it.

Preventative care is _always_ cheaper than actual treatments, and tarnishing or tartar build-up expose gums to gingivitis and teeth to caries.

Haddock (22): Ad hominem. How sad.

Anonymous

I just asked the question.

Your response fuels the fire that the system is broken.

Auriga

Health care may be complex. That’s why you don’t let any government control it.

Yet with this horrible government-based welfare system we still seem to be doing a better job in keeping our citizens healthy than you, winter.

Life expectancy at birth m/f (years):
USA: 75/80
Finland 75/82

Healthy Life Expectancy at birth m/f (years)
USA: 67.2/71.3
Finland: 68.7/73.5

Child mortality m/f (per 1000):
USA: 9/7
Finland: 5/4

Adult mortality m/f (per 1000)
USA: 139/82
Finland: 134/57

(Source: The world health report 2005)

http://www.who.int/countries/usa/en/
http://www.who.int/countries/fin/en/

77. Hahahahaha! Yeah right.

Ad hominem, more like statement of fact. Secondly an ad hominem means focusing on the persons character instead of an argument, while the gist of my post was that I worked and did not as the turd in question tried to imply someone that got it for “free”.

Looks like someone doesn’t know his definitions. How sad.

Health care may be complex. That’s why you don’t let any government control it.

Indeed, if you want to have an expensive an inefficient system. Few do.

The key word is “control”, I suppose. Finland’s public spending in the health care is 76% of the overall expenditure while in the USA it’s 45%. In dollars the US spends apparently a bit more than Finland but doesn’t get anything like the standard in Finland. Why? One reason is that the market share of the public sector here is so big that it indeed can control many aspects, like salaries, within the system and thus bring costs down. Apparently 45% isn’t enough – no big surprise there; the US system is, after all, isn’t designed to work for the common good.

The obvious problem is that the costs rise very fast – and in the near future even faster. But that’s not a welfare-sate problem, of course. In fact, it will hit the US system even harder because it’s so inefficient. It’s not so much us but you, who have to rethink your system and make radical changes (your system is broke, in other words).

But there is still hope, just remember to vote for Hillary in the 2008 elections…

One correction: the US doesn’t spend in dollars “apparently a bit more than Finland” as I wrote above. In fact the US expediture in the public health care per capita is something like 50% more than in Finland. The US spends more on public health care than Finland on public and private put together!

Here are the figures:
http://www3.who.int/whosis/country/indicators.cfm?country=fin
http://www3.who.int/whosis/country/indicators.cfm?country=usa

Haddock (81): Shut up retard. I work and fucking pay.

Looks like an attack on winter’s person to me. You’re clearly saying that winter is a retard, and because of that he shouldn’t even post (the “shut up” part).

I haven’t seen any indication of retardation in winter’s comments.

“I haven’t seen any indication of retardation in winter’s comments.”

You just haven’t been paying enough attention. I think that a guy who doesn’t know that the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 might not perhaps be the sharpest pencil in the box and probably isn’t the most well informed person to diss Finland.

Looks like an attack on winter’s person to me. You’re clearly saying that winter is a retard, and because of that he shouldn’t even post (the “shut up” part).

I did make a point, namely that he should cease his insinuation that I did not work and leached of other people, because I do infact work and pay taxes. Calling him a retard for trying such a underhanded tactic at the same time doesn’t nullify the rest of my post. It’s just stating the obvious.

I haven’t seen any indication of retardation in winter’s comments.

Probably because you share his viewpoints in the matter and thus give him a wide berth.

Look guys. I am just point out the facts?

A system based on taxes as its base, becomes broken very fast as the politicians start to promise you more and more (See all your posts on dental as a new benefit) to get elected.

A system with cost controls (Private system funded by the user directly), does not have that problem. If I want more dental coverage its there!, I just have to pay a little more.

Bottom line. A public system is doomed by its very structure (See the new USA Free Drug program for old folks, nobody wanted) as you can’t stop the politicians from messing with it for re-election points.

Second part: Government taking money from the private sector. That’s the most evil thing a Government can do to its own economy. And they now know it. Just look at the EU economy and the USA economy and bang, it hits you in the head. (Aboy go slap yourself.)

Thus the new Government trend to not take more funds to fix the broken health care system, and the move toward the private side.

Haddock (86): Well put. Yeah, winter (21) can be interpreted as an insinuation. However, now we know that you’re just another of us chumps (net payers), not a leech (net benefiter).

It is interesting that it is such a point of pride for you, though, for if the public health care were morally right, it would mean that there is no shame in being a net benefiter in the system. So which is it? Is it a shame to be a leech or not?

@ Markku:

What exactly is this so called “leeching”? There is no shame in using the tax-payed healthcare services as they are there just for that: to be used. By anyone. Yes, even by those who are not that well off and haven’t been able to contribute so much lately. In the case you haven’t noticed that’s the whole point of the system (!), to provide the healthcare services even to those who otherwise couldn’t afford it.

@ winter:

Look at post number 80. Then look at it again, please. Before you start praising the american system and bashing the finnish system you should perhaps get yourself acquainted with the statistical facts concering the two.

Look at post number 80.

The UN is in the hands of communists, don’t trust their statistics. In fact the US system is superior in any way imaginable and will always be. How could you you even suggest that the communist health care of yours could even come close? Learn some basic truths about the politicians and North Korea. Then come back with your “facts”. Actually a friend of mine told me that irresponsible surgeons or politicians have already killed you all off, so why am I bothering? You fuckin deserved it.

Åboy (90): A leech is a parasite that lives on somebody else’s expense. A net benefiter in the Finnish system is a leech in that he or she lives on the net payers’ expense.

What makes it worse is that in Finland the net payers aren’t paying voluntarily. In an insurance system participation is voluntary; in a socialized system you either pay or the state will confiscate your property and destroy your life.

The argument for the socialist system is that otherwise the disadvantaged could not afford health care. The counter-argument is that without the socialist system the sphere of private charity would be much larger, as there would be a need for it. This was true in the US before the New Deal crowded out the private charity, and it could be true again.

The counter-argument is that without the socialist system the sphere of private charity would be much larger, as there would be a need for it.

It’s always fun when these jokers who preach “rational self-interest” from one corner of the mouth declare the blessings of altruism from the other.

Look, it is not in my “rational self-interest” to support poor, ugly, smelly people in any way. I’d rather let them die and only have beautiful, smart and succesful people such as myself around. But I’m still happy to pay taxes to maintain a safety net. If this puzzles you, look up “prisoner’s dilemma”.

Aboy

I note your comment on “to be used”. That is what I am all against, and the point here.

You don’t have to be a leach, its your choice, and YES there is shame using Government resources. I do understand you paid the government for this service, but I expect you to vote with your conscience and go private.

My personnel choice, and yes I have had many opportunities to Leach (get money from being unemployed (many opportunities here), taking free donations from charities,) and yet I chose not to leach.

Its a pride thing with me. I just want to die, knowing I NEVER LEACHED on my fellow man, but was always the contributor to the less fortunate. Standing in a Government line for a free service, is leaching to me. Government lines should be a safety net only.

When the Government blurs this line, then how do I know if I am paying to much for help or not? They can just hide it in a cost increase, and use the money somewhere else. I.E. where is the accountability here. Accountability is what keeps a Government honest.

Now don’t confuse road/bridges (infrastructure) with a service. Service’s should generally always be in the public sector, and not mixed with the government pork we call road building. Road building is another long topic.

The counter-argument is that without the socialist system the sphere of private charity would be much larger, as there would be a need for it.

In the end, social benefits doled out by the state are a form of charity. The upside of charity, however, is that those accepting it (because they are in need) don’t see it as a right, or a normal state-of-things. Thus there’s motivation to rise above the acceptance of charity.

As to the efficiency of welfare state health care, or its possible advances in some statistical studies: all of those points become moot when one considers that not only does the US consumer pay for all of its own healthcare, but it also winds up paying for most of the world’s medical R&D, simply because the American consumer market creates an economically-friendly environment for such enterprises.

The rest of the world, of course, enjoys a freeride from the fruits of that innovation, thanks to the American worker-consumer.

“Government lines should be a safety net only.”

Well, my dear, that’s just what they are. Do you think that people in Finland exploit these services? Perhaps some do, but it is not as widespread as you imagine.

We have paid for services for example for rehabilitation for the sick and injured, for the child families with low income, for the currently unemployed but who are looking for a job and in the meanwhile have to live on something, for the pensioners who have worked all their lives building this country and paying their taxes, for the bright university students who wouldn’t be able to study in a university if it wasn’t supported by the government, and so on and so forth.

The tax-payed services are there because without them there would be a state of social darwinism where the weak would perish and the strong would stomp on them. We would live in a society where the poor couldn’t get a decent healthcare and a decent education, no matter how bright they were. Their talents would be wasted. We would live in a society where socioeconomical status and not your personal abilities would dictate your options and position in life.

The safety nets that we’ve built (and which some are eager to tear down) are there for a reason: to give everyone a chance, no matter if they were born to a rich family or not. Finland is a small country and it knows that it can’t waste it’s brain-potential.

Aboy

Yes we do love the state of social Darwinism where the weak would perish and the strong would stomp on them.

Lets go look at Cuba!!! How about North Korea?? Or maybe the true state of social services in the EU?? All places where the state has imposed social Darwinism by the taking of taxes and telling the people exactly what they are getting back.

Then we swing across the sea to the USA, and its strong economy, job growth, GDP rates —– WAIT… STOP…. According to Aboy theory the USA can’t happen. Why, they stomp on the little guy over there and he has no job, he has no economy to feed him, what he needs is a Government to supply all that stuff.

Note to myself: This self-reliance bull has got to stop. Must change into a Welfare loving, State rules, stand in long lines are ok, the Government is right, type of guy.

According to Aboy theory the USA can’t happen.

Are you under the illusion that the USA is some sort of a libertarian anarchism? In fact, the US is a welfare state but just in a smaller scale than Finland. All civilized countries are welfare states, guaranteeing to some degree that the underprivileged people are not thrown into the trashes or that you can educate yourself even if your parents are poor and so on.

What bothers the other half of the Americans and most Europeans is that there are people in the US that believe the American welfare system could be abolished and then things would get better. Even Bush jr, by the way, don’t agree with this silly view – not anymore in any case. Just check out what he said in his latest state of the nation speech.

For some reason the extremist view you seem to represent also represents the picture many Europeans have of the USA, when, in fact, a large majority of the Americans would like to have, for example, the same kind of health-care system we have.

Your political system just can’t produce what the people want, and that’s another reason why people form more democratic societies find it hard to understand and accept your policies.

In other words, the majority of the Americans seem to be okay, value-wise, although a bit old fashioned. But the political system of yours produces unacceptable results in our view (“our” meaning a large majority, not the libertarian or communist kind of leeches trying to suck out the life force out of this hard-gained civilized way of life). Examples are for example: the right of the state to kill its own citizens or letting children live on the streets – or not granting decent health care for all.

Anyway,

Tomia

It great to see you have all the liberal news fed stories of the USA so handy.

The political system here is doing just fine.

The kids are doing just fine.

In fact the entire Nation is doing just fine.

We have 10 Million people who came here, are undocumented, and just for some odd reason.. want to stay.

go figure.. we must want to suck their life forces out, and they still want to stay.

Lets not go into the EU system of “Burning cars for better dental benifits”, or your great EU Military that did not even bother to show up for the little Bosnian war. If we go down your low EU GDP growth rates, then that’s just to much to bitch about.

In UK, public dental care is virtually free for all. As it should be.

In UK, live to age 89 and find yourself to old for medical operations.

Thats what my gradma was told for a hip operation, so she went private, and now is walking vrs in a bed.

Great system.

winter:
We have 10 Million people who came here, are undocumented, and just for some odd reason.. want to stay.

And thousands upon thousands of people from the third world are willing to risk death to get into the EU each year. Your point was?

Freeriden

And yes your’s want to burn cars for more welfare, ours just want the opportunity we provide.

Its that simple.

British dental care might be free but more and more inaccessible http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4908250.stm

And yes your’s want to burn cars for more welfare, ours just want the opportunity we provide.

Aw, c’mon. There are plenty of opportunities in drug dealing and prostitution in Europe as well.

Its that simple.

Everything’s simple to simple people.

the people who burn cars in europe are normal citizens, who feel solidarity with the illegal immigrants, who, in the name of e monetaristic and exploiting policy dictated by USA and the big cartels behind USA, have to leave their poor country for a piece of bread. In USA there is no protest at all about the inequality caused by YOU, ASSHOLES!!!! Only in Europe – and then in the 3d world – people protest for their right. USA FUCK YOU, HANDS OFF FROM OUR WELFARE STATE!!!!

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