Phil, you are starting to sound like a member of the democratic party. TAXES, TAXES, TAXES! Fill the void and go pick up flowers or something There’s more to life than taxes.

When they lower my taxes I promise to stop bitching about them

Again, where does this “poor 15 %” come from?

According to you, people seem to either drive cars or stay at home. Bikes and public transport just do not seem to exist in your universe, save for the rusty former milkvan that passes your neck of the woods twice a day.

And how can someone love Espoo? On the same note, how can someone call it a city? It’s more like a myriad of motorways that combine various patches of residential areas.

I like the idea, however I feel that it should be an “impulse” measure. there would be immediate impacts in certain areas like real estate (prices and rents on the edges of the city going up, prices going down -or growing less- in Espoo , Vantaa, etc).

And as for the privacy, many other countries use a registry system to pay highway fees (there’s an identifier in your car and it checks when you go in and leave) and no privacy issues have surfaced, AFAIK. Back home they couldn’t even have the police check your medium speed when it’s obvious that some guys do 300 klms in less than 2 hours.

“And how can someone love Espoo?”

In Helsinki they always say Espoo is not really a city and in Espoo they want to make a big deal about Vantaa not being a city. How many people live in Espoo? 250,000 or what? Many of them love Espoo. Since I think it’s the city in Finland that has the highest number of people moving in each year, there are plenty of people outside of Espoo who would want to live there. I wouldn’t since I’m more than happy in Helsinki but really since so many Helsinkians are anti-Espoo the whole anti-name-your-city-you-love-to-hate thing is getting boring. I like it here since there are probably more people like me here than in Espoo and in Espoo there are more people like Phil. I wouldn’t want everybody everywhere be like me. I also know people who have moved from Helsinki to Espoo and say they’d like to move back. Other people who’ve moved to Espoo are very satisfied with where they’ve made their new home.

I’m a car owner living in suburbia, and while I think that driving to the heart of dowtown during rush hour is a nightmare and I’d much rather take the train, shopping with a car is far more convenient. It’s not a lifestyle for me, rather a necessity. All the decent shops are downtown and when I do go shopping, I buy a trunkful of stuff at once.

So I see that a congestion charge might hurt business downtown, which is a thing to avoid. I’m not a big fan of strip malls.

Have you been to central London, before and after the congestion charge? It’s made a good difference, but I suspect your idea that it keeps the poor off the road is pretty much bollocks. The amount is big enough that most people avoid it if possible, most of the traffic is delivery trucks etc that need to be there. The buses run better because of less delays and a mate who cycles says the areas with the charge are safer to cycle in before.

Isn’t it just a market solution to a problem? People need to decide what value they place on access to that (actually rather small) part of London.

I don’t see why Helsinki would need one though. Helsinkians have no idea what congestion can really mean!

I don’t see why Helsinki would need one though. Helsinkians have no idea what congestion can really mean!

I do think that quite a few Helsinkians have visited London and other similar cities. I agree that it’s a completely different scale, but have you driven through Mannerheimintie at 4 pm? It takes a bloody hour! One wonders if all those cars really need to be there.

Toby – You should see how people drive downtown. I’d be all for the central city being less congested. Between 3-6pm, there is a constant stream of idling cars on my street waiting for the light. Most other times they are just driving 90kph or so. I have no idea why non-residents would want to drive around downtown with the limited parking and the cobblestones which aren’t kind to suspensions.

The congestion charge in London has been a massive success and it’s going to be extended if the mayor gets his way. The mayor is a lunatic but this was a good idea. It doesn’t stop poor people going to the centre, it makes people think about whether they really need to, which is the point.

Lotsa wankers reading this blog by the looks of it (poll)…:)

“There are some serious privacy concerns with this system, the state will know exactly when and where you enter and exit the city.”

Yeah, of course, the government has nothing else to do than monitor who drives in and out of Helsinki. This is paranoia. You might not know that when the new local public transport cards were introduced in 2003, that was also the concern of some people – I mean that it could be observed afterwards who went where and how. The rules changed, however, and now all that information automatically disappears from the database.

If you want to argue against the toll (which I do support and which has been a success in Stockholm despite all the early populist opposition from people eho think cars are divine) based on “serious privacy concerns”, you could also try to ban credit cards, bank cards, library cards, surveillance cameras, mobile phones, buying tickets to see Depeche Mode, publishing information about yourself in your blog and lots of other stuff as well.

As far as privacy is concerned, the biggest news these days on that in Helsingin Sanomat has not been the potential toll. It’s been Nokia’s practice of monitoring its employees’ correspondence which the company first downplayed, then finally admitted the monitoring hadn’t only been general but concerned the correspondence of certain individual employees.

That’s what you should be more afraid, an evil company monitoring you at your workplace, not the evil state monitoring you at the toll booth, because the former has happened, the latter isn’t going to happen.

MM

Lotsa wankers reading this blog by the looks of it (poll)…:)

As if you needed a poll to see that.

14. No, but now it’s official. We’ll probably see a change in the ads!

One thing, how much will it be for the Helsinki congestion charge?

In Stockholm, it is 20kr (2€), in London it is £8 (12€)!

14. No, but now it’s official. We’ll probably see a change in the ads!

But I only read the blog for the comments!

I’ll only root for the congestion tax if they drop the other car related taxes to same level with the other EU countries. Soon we’ll be driving 50 year old cars and rest of the europe will be wondering how we’re able to keep them running.

Soon we’ll be driving 50 year old cars and rest of the europe will be wondering how we’re able to keep them running.

Isn’t that the case now?

I think some people would appreciate the amount of traffic in Helsinki more if they spent some time stuck in traffic on the West Loop in Houston, Texas at 5pm. Now that will put some hair on your ass.

“There are some serious privacy concerns with this system, the state will know exactly when and where you enter and exit the city.”

Yeah, so then you need to take the bus… oh, but the bus pass has all that data, so they know even where you change buses… eeekkkk

hfb and F.F. I work on Mannerheimintie so am “downtown” every day. I also used to live on Runeberginkatu (which make it more than just a prejudice when I say I hate Töölö) and in Kallio.

I cycle (3200 kms commuting last year – so I have PLENTY of time to pay attention to Helsinki driving styles and traffic issues!) and its very rare in Helsinki that you get lengthy amounts of standing traffic where cyclists can nip down between lanes as is SOP for British cyclists. On the rare occasions I need to drive in, about the only place you seem to get queues in the morning is at the end of the motorways (i.e. coming off Tusalantie). The UK is obviously a crappy comparison as it does have such major conjestion problems, but its what I know and thats why I think that Helsinki in comparison to most British cities just doesn’t have real traffic problems, particularly considering its unhelpful geography. Of course good public transport is central to this.

hfb:
I have no idea why non-residents would want to drive around downtown with the limited parking and the cobblestones which aren’t kind to suspensions.

Are you familiar with the concept of pilluralli? It’s essential for Finnish procreation (and, I suppose, should be tax-exempt because of that).

What is wrong with this picture?

In “Buying a car should be fun”, Phil points out the folly of high taxes on cars by asserting that they prevent people from trading up to less polluting vehicles:

“Yeah but the high taxes don’t really prevent people from buying cars, it just prevents them from buying cleaner, safer cars instead of holding on to their Ozone killing gas guzzlers.”

And yet here he seems to be doubling-back on this one, in spectacular fashion:

“But when 15% of the traffic stays off the road, what kind of people are those 15%? Yeah, it’s the poor. The poor will take their little polluting rust buckets off the Helsinki streets to make room for Finland’s wealthy, zooming around in their bigger, more polluting SUVs. At the very least, these bigger more polluting cars should be taxed more, but this isn’t done in Stockholm.”

But I thought the rich were in the CLEANER, safer cars, not the ozone killing gas guzzlers? And really, SUVs, here? I have a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

But I thought the rich were in the CLEANER, safer cars, not the ozone killing gas guzzlers? And really, SUVs, here? I have a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

This is the age-old libertarian custom of cherry-picking (just not on anyone else’s property!) the premises that best suit the argument at hand. Though, Phil has been disturbingly disloyal to libertarian ideals lately.

And by the way, cars don’t “kill ozone”, apart from perhaps leaks from old air conditioning systems that use CFCs. They’re a source of ozone, which is a Bad Thing in the lower atmosphere.

I would welcome the congestion charges as so much of our Helsinki region private car usage is just luxury (Phil, I am thinking especially of you…). The revenue collected should go for further improving the public transport system. Everyone would be a winner: we would waste much less of very expensive gasoline, the rush hour traffic would be much better and the public transport system would have more resources. No wonder they love the new system in Stockholm.

Toby – ride your bike down Lönnrotikatu between 3-6p any day of the week. With all the dust, grit, and other shit in the air that makes your nose burn right now, the added joy of exhaust from the standing cars and the thrill of asshole drivers driving up on the sidewalks to pass each other might make you appreciate Mannerheimintie. And, no, it’s nothing like Boston or London traffic but the air quality in Helsinki is much, much lower than in either of them which is one benefit of reducing the amount of traffic in the center. Breathing is nice occasionally.

And Frankin, I’m familiar…hell, even in Ivalo where there might have been 100 cars in total, I watched a guy drive the three blocks that was Ivalo round and round for several hours in the snow which I supposed was a function of there being nothing else to do in late November in the deep north of nowhere. Can’t the bored suburban kids do this in beautiful ‘downtown’ Espoo or something?

I’m sure this wind and rain is helping clear the air quite a lot at the mo’. I know that Helsinki does get bad air quality, but its never as stinky of traffic fumes as various UK cities I’ve lived in have been, although obviously that ain’t the same as air quality. The dust is minging though. When we lived on Runeberginkatu I hated it that you couldn’t open the windows (and we were 5 floors up) with out dust getting everywhere.

My big moan is about the cycle paths. Don’t get me started on this, or on how Finnish drivers treat cyclist (you seem to become invisible when on a bike). I could moan about that all day!

And Frankin, I’m familiar…hell, even in Ivalo where there might have been 100 cars in total, I watched a guy drive the three blocks that was Ivalo round and round for several hours in the snow

Did he even get lucky?

Can’t the bored suburban kids do this in beautiful ‘downtown’ Espoo or something?

Apparently the booty is better in Helsinki than “lovely” Espoo.

Toby:
My big moan is about the cycle paths. Don’t get me started on this, or on how Finnish drivers treat cyclist (you seem to become invisible when on a bike). I could moan about that all day!

Oh, you should have seen what it was like to try to cycle in the centre in the 80s when there were no cycle paths. Thankfully, the Greens in the Helsinki city council have since remedied the situation somewhat and we have at least cycle paths on Mannerheimintie and Bulevardi as well as across the railway station. But Helsinki is still a long way from Amsterdam when it comes to bike-friendliness.

I would differ from Phil on this one, and support a congestion tax, in that it’s essentially like a consumption tax. You have a choice as to paying it or not, while with an income tax, – especially with automatic withholding from pay – there never really is a choice.

Consumption tax increases prices, of course, but that is more than offset if there is a reduction in income taxes. Decisions can be made by the individual on the spot, on a daily basis, as to whether to pay for the price of the service plus tax, while one can only affect income taxes through the ponderous process of electoral politics.

I’d love to see higher tolls on the bridges and tunnels of New York (they’re about $4-$6 now; I’d like to see $10 or $20), and less income taxation from the City of New York. It would also be interesting to see San Francisco have the same kinds of rates: that city has worse weekend traffic jams than New York.

I once made the mistake of borrowing a friend’s car at 3pm on Friday in San Francisco, and attempt to get it returned to Berkeley by the usual 15-30 minutes it takes while driving at nighttime.

It took me four hours.

The Stockholm congestion charge trials here are working really well – a real success, the streets are notably less congested, and extra buses etc have been provided (which are more efficient due to the less clogged streets). I live right in the centre of Stockholm, well within the charging zone, and it really has improved the quality of life with less traffic and I assume less pollution (alas my nose is not sensitive enough to really notice, but I’m sure less traffic can only be good).

I have to admit, I was quite against it before it started, but am now all for it!

The only stupid thing is that currently if your car gets stolen and the thief drives it with the autogiro transponder in it, the police aren’t allowed to use the data from the charging stations to track your car (the data privacy laws are going a little too far there I think…). Worse, if this should happen you have to pay the charge and then appeal the charge as in the regular way for any other contested tax. But that is the only blip, and I’m sure it can be one that is easily remedied.