I agree with your girlfriend.

Taxes are indeed insane here. Thats why I went to germany and bought my car. I still had to pay like 3900 in taxes. But it’s still a good deal. However! If the goverment decides to cease with this form of legalized theft then I want my f***ing money back! All 3900 of it! I see red when I have to think about this.

At least, they could have a year of mercy every 10th or 15th year, when everybody could buy their car taxfree, so we would get the worst POS’s out of traffic. But somehow I suspect, we wouldn’t see the corresponding drop in car prices.

P.S. Listen to your GF. That thing is what you get, when some Hitler’s Benz marries tippa-Rellu (Renault whatwasit).

I have to agree with the previous comments, apparently your girlfriend has a better taste in cars than you.

Generally I don’t have a problem with our high taxation, but I must say that this insanely steep tax on cars is not defensible, it penalizes new and environmentally more advanced vehicles (SUVs I would tax to hell…) – I would shift the tax burden towards the actual usage (maybe with some tax breaks if you live outside the urban areas). Maybe the Helsinki area could have some extra tax for car users that would be used to further improve the public transport (this last one just to annoy all the libertarians reading this thread!)

Yes, the car indeed looks horrible (like most American cars) and I hope they adopt the Swedish way of taxing cars.

There are no car manufacturers of any scale operating in Finland. Creating a more buoyant market for cars would benefit firms from abroad, rather than Finnish employers.

High taxes on cars DO encourage people to use Public transport more often than they otherwise might do. Revenues for the State owned railway benefit indirectly from high car taxes. Finnish firms running bus services will also benefit too if cars are made artifically expensive by insane indirect tax rates.

High taxes on cars in Finland reduce the demand for cars. The money that would otherwise be spent on new expensive cars is spent on other big ticket items that might not be direct substitute for a car e.g. Over priced Finnish brands Iitala Glasswear, yet another over-priced Nokia mobile phone with some new feature etc etc

High taxes on cars in Finland are used to deliberately manipulate consumer spending, so that as much money as possible stays within the Finnish economy.

This type of crude protectionism also explains the continued existance of the state owned Alko monopoly. When taxes on alcohol were cut in Finland the aim again was to re-direct expenditure away from imports. The percentage tax cut on spirits was far higher than the tax cuts on less harmful forms of alcohol such as wine. Finland does not have any vineyards. However, there are still plenty of Finnish jobs tied up in the Vodka industry. This explains the Finnish government’s decision to change the relative price of vodka relative to wine.

High taxes on cars DO encourage people to use Public transport more often than they otherwise might do.

Poor people.

I have to agree with the previous comments, apparently your girlfriend has a better taste in cars than you.

Whatever. That PT Cruiser is so gangster. As soon as I’d buy it I’d immediately go out and a buy a few pin-stripped suits and some black hats and cruise around my neighbohood starring evilily at my neighbors. Oh, and I’d get a fake Thompson submachinegun and aluminum baseball bat for the trunk.

This is me driving around –>

PT Cruisers are cheap in New Jersey.

Time to come home.

Yeah, they’re like 15K to start in US, so like 13K euros, and they’re 26K euros to start in Finland.

See, this is why I am going to bring “moving” vehicles when I move to Finland. Since they are considered, “moving” (as in, moving to a diff place) vehicles, then you don’t have to pay taxes on them (or at least very minimal). I just don’t know what I will do once they are too old to drive anymore! :-O

Yes, you should have brought one with you.

Phil, I don’t think the cruiser is a real winter car.

Aren’t you now living in the sticks? Does everyont refer to you as the crazy American yet?

The car tax is insane, for once I agree. But on the other hand I don’t see anything wrong with using the public transports. They are a far more environment-friendly way to travel than private cars.

I agree with mjr’s comments. Directing people towards the use of public transport is a Good Thing. That being said, the current tax system sucks, as it does not really favour economical and environmentally friendlier cars. We should strive to get rid of the 19th century technology of the internal combustion engine and the Finnish tax system doesn’t help with that at all. The tax makes even a regular small hybrid like the Prius unaffordable to most people, putting it in the price category of a C-series Merc. Not to mention taxes against electric vehicles which are truly an abomination.

And another thing – how about these people driving Audi’s and Mercedes around town, the debt these people are in must be astronomical.

What debt? You do not seem to get it into your head that we do have rich people in Finland. Go a few notches up in your Nokia hierarchy and see what the somewhat bigger boss makes. It’s public information.

Finnish honesty:
There are no car manufacturers of any scale operating in Finland.

You’re forgetting the Porsche Boxters manufactured in Uusikaupunki. Maybe they should get a tax break.

By the way, one gets by just fine without a car if one doesn’t live in the backwoods of Espoo.

One more thing: Doesn’t the USA have some sort of a gaz-guzzler extra tax on mostly foreign sports cars? Miraculously, though, SUVs are exempt. Perhaps driving an SUV is a God-given right of the American worker-consumer that must not be infringed.

When quoting US prices, please include the after Tax Prices – what’s the sales tax in NJ? 6%? Are there any other fees you have to pay when your buy a new car? I find that North Americans tend to use the pre-tax/pre-hidden fee prices and forget that usually in Europe the sticker price is the final price.

Not to say the Finnish Car tax isn’t insane :
The Tax Free price of a PT Cruiser is 15602 Euros in Finland:
http://www.chrysler.fi/chrysler_hinnastot.php?p=taxfreehinnasto

The after Tax price is 26990 Euros:
http://www.chrysler.fi/chrysler_hinnastot.php

11388 euros of Tax (~42%).

But anyway, in Helsinki you don’t need a car. I don’t consider myself poor and I’m living without a car in downtown without living in a box/nor spending half my life doing commute. Espoo definitely isn’t the best choice to live if you would like to commute.

The price of a car gives me nice additional investment sum to use as I please – while your car is rusting, my capital is earning me interest. I’ve probably stressed out few years of my life in San Diego and other North American gridlocks, now I can just sit back and enjoy my commute with other poor people .

I’ve lived in various places in Finland and abroad ranging from small towns to big cities and never needed a car. Phil, you don’t need a car here if you don’t need it for your work or live in the deep countryside. I’ve survived several small Finnish towns, one of them even really small, with public transportation (in that small town, there wasn’t even local public transportation the town being too small for that).

Car or public transport, it’s mostly a question of attitude. Also, you can spot Finnish politicians in public transport here as well. I remember for example sharing a Helsinki tram with at least a current MP, former MEP and former minister, all separately and on different routes.

MM

By the way, this “poor people get screwed by the auto tax” argument is pretty braindead. Yes, poor people can’t afford many things that rich people can. Does our libertarian have a problem with that?

And indeed, remembering that there’s an environmental justification to the auto tax, I must point out that poor people get screwed by waste management fees as well. Perhaps they should be allowed to dump their waste oil and lead-acid batteries in Phil’s groundwater, eh?

Phil: That PT Cruiser is so gangster. As soon as I’d buy it I’d immediately go out and a buy a few pin-stripped suits and some black hats and cruise around my neighbohood starring evilily at my neighbors.

Yeah, I really like public transport* but it would be difficult to see how anyone could get the same effect by entering a HKL tram wearing a pin-stripped suit… Although, people who know something about cars have complained about the engine choises available for those PT Cruisers in Finland.

*) I’m just so lazy that I’m happy with any form of transportation that doesn’t involve me behind the wheel. In that sense I’m actually with you Espooians (?) as I think taxi’s should be categorized as public transport.

“Yeah, I really like public transport* but it would be difficult to see how anyone could get the same effect by entering a HKL tram wearing a pin-stripped suit…”!”

You just need the violin case and the 1920′s General Electric tram called ‘jenkki’ from the HKL museum. I think that comes pretty close.

I don’t understand the “only poor people use public transportation” -argument that Phil so often uses, either. I know lots of people who have cars but who still prefer public transport or even a bicycle.

I use public transport and my bike because it is just so much easier and hassle-free. I look at all of those poor bastards here in Paris, stuck on the périphérique, and I flash them my public transport pass and mock them with my monkey pants.

I also walk a lot, but yet I have a valid driver’s licence with I put to use several times a year. Does this freak you out?

Hei Phil! You can buy a car in an other EU-Country!

Hei Phil! You can buy a car in an other EU-Country!

You do know what’ll happen at Finnish customs, don’t you?

They use some kind of freaky algorithm in calculating the “going price” of a used car in Finland. Car values depreciate in e.g. Germany faster than in Finland, so it makes sense to buy a bit more expensive used car from Germany. Let’s say a 5-year old big Audi or Mercedes. According to a theory, car dealerships keep used car list prices artificially high to discourage this practice and keep business coming their way. The asking prices of relatively new cars with 10-20kkm on the meter are insane: almost the same as brand new cars.

Bringing in a new car from another EU country is completely senseless. You’ll end up paying more than you would if you bought it in Finland.

PT Cruiser? You need to be slapped like a bad housewife.

I agree that Finland penalises people for buying cars with the high tax rates but it’s hard to see it as a bad thing. Cars contribute massively to the two greatest environmental problems – localised air pollution and CO2 emissions. Any policy that reduces that is a good policy.

We have a car but we hardly ever use it because gas is so expensive and we don’t need it. If you live in the greater Helsinki metropolitan area you really don’t need a car. We only use ours to get out of town and buy big stuff.

And Phil, that car is ugly, ugly, ugly. And there’s a reason you hardly ever see American cars in Europe. It’s because they cannot go around corners and in Finland, we have corners.

“High taxes on cars DO encourage people to use Public transport more often than they otherwise might do.”

With what logic? It doesn’t add to the logic if you write “DO” instead of “do”.
One can still buy that rusty bucket with wheels for a couple of thousand, no matter how high the car taxation is. It pollutes more and isn’t as safe as a newer one would be, but you have it none the less. We all know that the cost of driving an old car is nothing when compared to driving a new car, and the cost isn’t even affected by car taxation. Therefore, once you have the car you’re likely to use it. How does this add up to the use of public transportation.

Saying that high taxes on gasoline encourages people to use public transportation, is correct. But saying the same about car prices is a thing I can’t understand. Can someone help me to?

Saying that high taxes on gasoline encourages people to use public transportation, is correct. But saying the same about car prices is a thing I can’t understand. Can someone help me to?

I’d rather take the bus to work than a clanking rustbucket that’s likely leave me on the side of Tuusulantie. Been there, done that, decided that if I buy a car, it’ll be a new one.

Hey Zark, the “sales tax” in Finland is 22%. And it is levied on the PT cruiser (tax free + car tax)+22% VAT = 26 grand.

You can always go to Denmark, where its 180% tax + 25% VAT… no wonder bicycles are so “popular”…

Phil, aren’t you waiting for the Dodge Caliber? Me would like one with diesel engine (rumored to be arriving to Europe) and uhh, less tax if possible.

Public transportation has a big problem: you can’t haul lots of stuff with you.
Of course you could pay for a taxi, but those are quite expensive and they’ll get annoyed if the car isn’t immediately loaded up and unloaded.
I’m always annoyed when I have to move some stuff and theres no car available. It’s even worse if I have to travel outside of Helsinki.
Besides the car related taxes, driver licenses are also very expensive; 1600 euros and up… legalised theft.

Cars are all the time becoming more and more cleaner environmentally so theres no reason to keep excusing that aspect. Our old cars are a problem, to their owners and environment.

Cars contribute massively to the two greatest environmental problems – localised air pollution and CO2 emissions. Any policy that reduces that is a good policy.

Yeah but the high taxes don’t really prevent people from buying cars, it just prevents them from buying cleaner, safer cars instead of holding on to their Ozone killing gas guzzlers.

Antti (the redneck one): “You just need the violin case and the 1920’s General Electric tram called ‘jenkki’ from the HKL museum. I think that comes pretty close. ”

Now that does sound like something worth seeing!

Didn’t you get the memo that only aging baby boomer guys with long hair and beer guts drive those awful PT Cruisers? And women. Gansters drive real cars, not those ugly ass wannabe nostalgia mobiles built on a Dodge Neon chassis. Work on your combover and leisure suit honey.

Gansters drive real cars, not those ugly ass wannabe nostalgia mobiles built on a Dodge Neon chassis.

Yeah. Phil should get an Eldorado and pimp it.

Americans need always a car, because their asses are too fat for walking.

Here’s a little something about car tax + Finland.
All you americans can cry now about your high taxes, this is the car of those who care
http://www.nullwave.net/cartax_transam.jpg

Whatever. That PT Cruiser is so gangster. As soon as I’d buy it I’d immediately go out and a buy a few pin-stripped suits and some black hats and cruise around my neighbohood starring evilily at my neighbors. Oh, and I’d get a fake Thompson submachinegun and aluminum baseball bat for the trunk.

I’m sorry Phil, but gangster does not come to mind when I see that car. A small, middleaged asian lady does.

@25

I agree that Finland penalises people for buying cars with the high tax rates but it’s hard to see it as a bad thing. Cars contribute massively to the two greatest environmental problems – localised air pollution and CO2 emissions. Any policy that reduces that is a good policy.

A) Cheaper taxes would allow people to buy newer, more enviromentially friendly cars that use less gas and in the long turn saves money for people and the enviroment as well.

B) Cheaper taxes will sell more new cars, thus increasing consumption which is good for the economy.

It’s a win-win situation.

We have a car but we hardly ever use it because gas is so expensive and we don’t need it. If you live in the greater Helsinki metropolitan area you really don’t need a car. We only use ours to get out of town and buy big stuff.

Then please argue from the standpoint that not everyone lives in helsinki.

Then please argue from the standpoint that not everyone lives in helsinki.

A LOT of people in Helsinki often forget that. They need to try leaveing Ring I more than twice a year I think.

The argument that in environmental terms it’s better to lower taxes so people buy newer cleaner cars isn’t obviously true (nor obviously false – there’s a debate to be had).

In my experience, you don’t see as many beat up old cars in Finland as you do in the US. However, cars are much smaller here. Taxes do a couple of things, only one of which prevents people upgrading their cars. They:

1) Don’t buy a car at all or have one per family instead of two.
2) Buy a smaller rather than a larger car.

Balancing these factors with the “upgrade” factor is not at all simple.

Captain Haddock,

I should have written “any metropolitan area” rather than Helsinki. We didn’t have a car until we came to Helsinki and got along fine in day-to-day situations.

In Finland, I live in Turku. I get by quite well without a car.

In my experience, you don’t see as many beat up old cars in Finland as you do in the US.

Ofcourse but we have a better social system and thus less poor people.

However, cars are much smaller here. Taxes do a couple of things, only one of which prevents people upgrading their cars. They:

Balancing these factors with the “upgrade” factor is not at all simple.

What of the increased consumption factor? Does economy mean nothing at all?

More like Ring 3 and the GHA

I need a new car, too. And yes, taxation on cars is ridiculous, bordering criminal. What I want to comment is Phil´s favourite car model. Well, that is also my favourite. I liked it from the moment I saw it something like three years ago. It looks funny, like a shortened London cab. It has humour and personality.

BUT: I am a very middle-aged woman. I would imagine that a young man would like something more sporty. I said that I would like to have that London cab, and my menfolk laughed and said that “even you are not that old”, and recommended me some Fiat model that has been designed by somebody famous.

Plus they pointed out that every single test tells that Chryslers are very prone to rust, they always lose when compared to other cars. Just go and check the paper in any “katsastusasema” wall.

Phil: “A LOT of people in Helsinki often forget that. They need to try leaveing Ring I more than twice a year I think.”

Let’s keep in mind that most of todays Helsinkians have actually moved there from outside the Rings so it’s probably not just a question of forgetting.

Helsinki constantly comes up as an example in these debates simply because it’s the centre of the only kind-of-metropolis in this country and thus also suffers from the worst traffic problems. Similar issues do exist in other parts of the country too, but since the scale is a bit larger here, especially many Helsinkians have a hard time understanding why everyone should drive their own car when so many could in fact simply choose otherwise too.

Of course there are large parts of the country where you absolutely need a car if you want to get around. There are also plenty of jobs in the cities that require a car for constantly moving around or transporting stuff from one place to another. These issues shouldn’t be forgotten and all of us would benefit from newer, safer cars on our roads.

That said, there are also a lot of people who avoid public transport simply because of attitude problems or laziness and by doing so end up making everyday life unnecessarily difficult for the rest of us. Everyone can’t switch to public transport but for those who could, the right way of promoting it should be based on improving the service instead of trying to stop them from buying cars.

As a victim of Finnish car tax, I am ready to riot against it. It is insanely high and I doubt that there is a single valid good argument for maintaining it except protecting Finnish market and shoveling more money in the few car dealers pockets than is already happening.

Furthermore, I don’t understand the arguments of people who claim that cars should be banned in greater Helsinki area and peoople living here should pay higher taxes. Isn’t it enough that people in Helsinki have to pay double the price for flats than in other parts of Finland? Do people here earn double the salary than in other parts of the country? Already the proposal shows a disrespect of equality and a ridiculous envious attitude to anyone who can afford a car! Finnish jealousy vs. Finnish sisu: the ones working hard have to punished even more.

And the “fairy tale” about the good public transport. It’s just ridiculous in what world some of the commenters here are living! have you ever tried to travel from Vantaa to Espoo and vice versa? Or within Espoo and Vantaa in times except the morning and afternoon rush? Public transport works ok from Helsinki center or regional centers (Tikkurils, Tapiola, Leppävaara) to other centers. Otherwise, it just sucks! I was spending 2 hours or more in 3 different busses (could have chosen also 1 bus and 2 different trains) to go from my home to my work. when I started using the car, it took me half the time and I was flexible.

The only public transport where I am is the school bus and it goes the wrong way… And i wouldn’t be able to get back home then either. I drive a total of 32km everyday just for getting to and from work and thats not that far compared to others.

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I’ve always lived in deep suburbs of Helsinki and I’ve never even given a thought of getting a car.

The 300C is ganster. The PT cruiser… isn’t.

Maybe if you cut half of the roof off it could pass for a bootlegging truck.

‘Isn’t it enough that people in Helsinki have to pay double the price for flats than in other parts of Finland?’

I feel so sorry for you. Try another town, there are some in Finland you know.

An American can’t get out of his fur even in europe Phil wants to see the rush hours of Los Angeles here in Helsinki, I suppose.

What is with this philosophy that everybody should own a car. More fumes, bigger and longer rush hours, environment going down, drunk driving increasing without public transportation. Imagine that 6 billion people would own a car. Our planet can’t take this much longer with this rate of oil consumption.

Actually, they surveyed the “Los Angeles” option for Helsinki traffic planning in the beginning of the 70′s. The problem was, that the downtown is located on a narrow peninsula and there is simply not enough space for the “all private car” option.

On the other hand, the faces of those Eira fineasses complaining about few concerts would have been priceless, if Kaivopuisto was bulldozed under a 6-lane motorway accross the sea to Vuosaari, as required by the abovementioned planning option.

Oh God Jaakko. What is wrong with you people? Do you apologize for being alive too?!!

And people wonder why Finland has so many unemployed people!!

The last thing Finland / Finns should worry about is enviroment.

Most of Finland is about as pristine as can be. When you take off from Helsinki – Vantaa, all you see is forest. And that is our fragging capital! Most of Finland is nothing but a forest.

Those newer cars you are against (because that is what you are against when you are for higher taxes), would actually be WAY less polluting than the old ones. So actually you are dead wrong about the effects of vehicle taxes in Finland.

So that leads us to the question of taxes.

Lets see, vehicle taxation on PT cruiser gives 11 388 euros for the goverment.. Do you really think that it is a good idea to give that 11 388 euros to the goverment instead of private business (where it would go when people would have it left over)?

Basically, here we have the difference between typical American and typical Finn. Finns actually believe that it is a good idea to give that money for the fragging goverment. While Americans believe that that money should go to private business..

When it comes to the poor people of this country. It makes perfect sense why they want things to be as they are. They get their money from KELA. So, that 11 388 goes to them..

What they do not understand is.. That under American style system, most of those people would not be dependant on the KELA in the first place. Since that money would have gone mostly to private businesses which then in turn were able to employ them (and with higher salaries to boot if their taxes were cut too)..

It is impossible for your typical Finn to see this / trust capitalists, since they are dependant on that KELA money. They are afraid that if their neighbour was allowed to keep part of the 11 388.. They are afraid they would never see a hot cent out of it.

Am I weird in a way that I do not covet my neighbours money?

The last thing Finland / Finns should worry about is enviroment.

Actually, that is the first thing that people everywhere should be worrying about, especially if they happen to have children.

When you take off from Helsinki – Vantaa, all you see is forest. And that is our fragging capital! Most of Finland is nothing but a forest.

But how much of it is in its natural state?

Finns actually believe that it is a good idea to give that money for the fragging goverment. While Americans believe that that money should go to private business..

Let’s just say that I trust even KePu more than I trust Wal-Mart management.

That under American style system, most of those people would not be dependant on the KELA in the first place.

Is that the system where everyone makes $60,000 a year?

It is impossible for your typical Finn to see this / trust capitalists, since they are dependant on that KELA money.

Oh please, get a grip. A “typical Finn” is not dependent on KELA. Actually, I would venture to say that the “typical Finn” is pretty much against the car tax. That being said, it takes some kind of a commie ideology to consider being able to afford a PT Cruiser as some kind of an inalienable right. Last time I checked, a Ford KA cost 10,900 €, which everyone with a full-time job should be able to afford. Oh, let me guess: not “gangster” enough?

Personally, I feel that anyone with enough money to waste on an ugly POS such as the PT Cruiser deserves to have it taken away from them.

‘What they do not understand is.. That under American style system, most of those people would not be dependant on the KELA in the first place. Since that money would have gone mostly to private businesses which then in turn were able to employ them’

Of course, the first thing the private business does is say ‘thanks for the money, lets find some welfare people we can employ.’ Bollocks do they. They bugger off to China or look for a tax break somewhere. What colour is the sky in your world?

Anonymous, thank you for prooving my point about the difference between Finns and Americans.

Franklin, I see where you stand. But when you say that typical Finn is not depending on KELA, you are just outright lying. Most Finns do depend on them at some point of their lives. But hey, you can say they do not. Be proud. Good for you. Finland is paradise! Not.

STP:
Franklin, I see where you stand. But when you say that typical Finn is not depending on KELA, you are just outright lying. Most Finns do depend on them at some point of their lives.

Oh, I see. You belong to that school of thought; everyone should start paying their own way from at least kindergarten. Then you’d be correct. Every Finn is dependent on direct or indirect state support at some point in their lives, starting from the maternity ward. But regarding your rant about the envious “average Finn”, I’d imagine that most toddlers aren’t that concerned about the car tax.

Then again, claiming that most Finns are just loafers on welfare for their entire lives is a bit of a stretch of the imagination.

As for “coveting my neighbours’ money”, I belong to the top 10% income bracket (and pay pretty hefty income taxes) whereas most of my neighbours are students. Sorry, I think that’s the one sin I’m not guilty of. I’m happy to support them on their way to becoming productive worker-consumers, though.

Finland is paradise! Not.

I’ve never claimed that. Our social system is pretty good, though. Beats the law of the jungle 6-0.

Ask a Friend in the US to drive around for a couple of years in a PT you bought, and then get it to finland free of tax My friend did that on a porsche, saved some 30k eur

http://citycarclub.fi/

Franklin wrote:

“Let’s just say that I trust even KePu more than I trust Wal-Mart management.”

And what has Wal Mart managment done to you? They are equal opportunity employee, hiring people from all walks of life. They are innovator on the field of logistics and commerce. Actually, Wal Mart is hated in America mostly for using Chinese labour to cut costs. But hey.. What ever works. And I am pretty sure the chinese purchiate that money in their pockets.

That is what capitalism is about. About innovation inspired by greedy stockholders.

The thing about welfare state goverment is that no one is optimizing its logistics, no one is going to be fired if they waste some money here and there. And there is no customer service desk!

I love Wal Mart for all the things I stated above.

If you put Wal Mart through times of recession. I am sure it will survive. Sure it will fire people, sure it will become smaller chain, but it will survive. Now, for the reasons stated above. I am certain that our welfare state can not come out of a bad recession.

I am dreaming of American style, leaner goverment in Finland. Not necessarily cut throat lean. But leaner. I am saying that we SHOULD
send our goverment people to learn from Wal Mart. We should privatize more services!

The thing is. If we allowed this country to get rich. The people could carry themselves with straighter back than they do now. But ofcourse you can not believe me, because it takes a leap of faith to see it happen.

Maybe it would happen, maybe it would not. But one thing I DO know is, that the situation we have right now, with double digit unemployment and general stagnation. Is just not how things should be.

Nokia just made records profits. But one of these quarters, it will take one in the butt. One of these quarters, the tax tap will stop pouring cash into the welfare state coffers and then. It will be the time to think about what I said.

I always liken the welfare state to limited bloodflow to the heart. Sure it is going to work. But it will not grow as strong as it would if the bloodflow (cashflow) was unlimited.

But hey.. Why should we care? Right? It is Friday. I am going to pour myself another drink.