Actually, I’ve never come across Finns taking a “sickie” (pretending to be sick), which is commonplace elsewhere.

It’s also really stupid to allow sick people into the workplace. They’re unproductive and spread the illness. There’s nothing worse than these coughing, sneezing martyrs sitting at their desks bringing the place down.

But you put your finger on it. Finns are the most honest people around and they trust one another. Americans (and just about everyone else) are much less reliable and so employers don’t trust them. In that case you need a stigma against taking days off so the people who aren’t really ill don’t stay home.

It’s just common sense that you’re doing more harm than good by being at work when sick: you work slower, make more mistakes, recover slower, and also spread some nasty bacteria around the workplace.

It’s unbelievably stupid and selfish to go to work while being ill. One or two more days on sick leave is so much wiser than going to the office and spreading the bug to possibly dozens of people. That’s what slows down projects, not choosing to stay at home until you really aren’t ill anymore.

That is true. Here you know your colleagues are not doing any work, and often their bosses know it too, but they still allow it to happen not to upset the peace. Especially if they are in the same freemason lodge or similar mans organisation. Guess it is even bigger problem outside of the capital where people live and work much closer together.

That’s true, Finns got it right, stay home if you’re contagious. But taking a sick day because of “family troubles” or “fatigue”, that’s a different story.

I guess it all depends on your company and your boss. If your boss doesn’t mind you taking off sick all the time because of fatigue, than go for it. But then, don’t wonder why you keep getting turned down for promotions.

Well, in a sense, you might consider fatigue something that would really slow you down/affect your concentration at work. I don’t know how fatigue and family troubles were defined in that study, but I find it hard to imagine it’d be comparable to pretending to be sick. The reason I’m saying this is I know getting rid of the protestant work ethic is hard, believe me I’ve tried and had no success. If an averga Finn would just take the day off for no real reason I’d suspect they’d be more stressed about missing work than they’d be about working.

Then of course it depends on the employer as well. My partner’s current employer has got it right I think, they work from 9am to 3pm Monday to Thursday. Fridays are free. That way they keep the employees happy and energetic and actually productive.

Well, as I’ve pretty much worked only in the IT/games industry, can’t say about anything else, but IMO if you just do your stuff on time and don’t leave people hanging in the wind, nothing else matters. I always stay home when I got flu coming since I’ve had my share of the working superheroes who come to the office even if they had the plague.

and I’m writing this from work, on sunday

Well, I am writing this from the office on Sunday . I just came here to get some stuff “proper done” as I am feeling a bit downwind, sore throat… I could do most of the stuff distance but needed to get out and all the printers are in the office… And having some chilli ramen noodles is just what the doctor ordered.

Well, I am writing this from the office on Sunday

Hey, working on Sunday cause you fucked around Mon-Fri doesn’t count.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that each worker in Finland gets 10 or so sick days which is fully reimbursed by the employer. Sick leave beyond the annual quota is reimbursed at a lower rate.

Again I might be wrong but I remembered that if a worker does not use them one year, they accumulate and can be taken the next year.

While I was in Finland, I didn’t take a sick day for about 5 years. Perhaps, 2 or 3 times during these 5 years; I should have stayed home, but I didn’t.

I noticed that many other people took sick days exactly equal to their annual quota. And they treated them as Personal Days.

Furthermore, many mothers would openly call in sick not because they were sick but their child was sick and had to miss school. This was tolerated and even applauded.

At the end of my time in Finland, the management and ownership of my employer changed. The new management were control freaks, where all your movements were monitored by an electronic key, and your internet surfing during company time was also monitored. I also think (again I might be wrong) that they required doctors’ notes for certain absences, whereas before this was not required.

Peter, the amount of days one can be sick in a year with full compensation depend not only on the legislation but also on collective agreements. The accummulation thing IMHO is not believable.

Parents have the right (and that’s in the legislation) to stay home to take care of children below a certain age (which I don’t know by heart) but that right is limited to only some days per year.

And Phil, as someone who wrote about going to Cebit and planning to get intoxicated there every evening, I doubt you’ve also used hours paid by your employer when you haven’t been in the best possible state of mind at work with full salary plus all the travel benefits. Moreover, what the Yle article says is the percentage of people thinking what is right, not the percentage of people exercizing that right. Like me – never been sick for a fake reason from work, moreover been at work so sick that my workmates would clearly have preferred me to stay at home.

Did you catch a virus from CEBIT, Phil?

In my office, someone is always off sick either with the kids or, like one colleague, out for four months who just resurfaced in the office after not having seen him since about November 15th. In the states, stringing along 4 months of sick time with a company paid conference in the middle just wouldn’t happen. The concept of no limit to sick time still boggles my mind.

Peter,

Do you really think it’s wrong to take days off when your kids are sick? What else can you do? They aren’t allowed at school or in daycare because obviously they make the other kids sick.

Quite right it is applauded. Most people who work know that when they have time off, they have a shit load to do when they get back. It’s not fun for most people to be off work.

The concept of no limit to sick time still boggles my mind.

Well, umh, if you ARE sick? Not really fair to sack someone just because they’re ill, is it.

Do you really think it’s wrong to take days off when your kids are sick? What else can you do? They aren’t allowed at school or in daycare because obviously they make the other kids sick.

Could that be a reason why Finnish women aren’t making as much money as men in the workplace? They’re not in the office as much. Kids get sick and who stays home? The mother. Stay home alot and you’ll be known as “unreliable” around the office.

What, so it’s kind of their own fault for having kids?

If children are ill in the US they’re just left home alone to cry about their fever?

It’s quite rare in Finland to be paid whatever the employer feels you deserve. I think it’s an American idea that the employee gets more money if the boss likes their face.

In most jobs there’s a general contract negotiated by the unions that determines how much a person in a given post makes.

Now, getting that job is a whole other thing. Women under 30 or 35 are not considered as potential employees at all often because they’re going to have children at some point anyway. Unless you actually have like two already it’s something that you’re going to be asked about in the interview, despite it being slightly illegal.

What Anna is writing above is at least partly a stereotype which is slowly becoming a quasifact here because it’s been repeated over and over again by women (and male politicians) for years. My personal experience as a thirty-something male has been that the jobs I’ve applied for and of which I know who got the one I didn’t is that the vast majority of those selected have been WOMEN, less educated and presumably with weaker previous work experience than I have, and if one is to judge from their names (no Tyynes, Kyllikkis etc.), also in a potential child bearing age (or older, and then we can easily step into the myth of older people not hired just because they’re old).

The times I’ve been in an interview and not picked up differ – it might be that just my appearance didn’t make a good impression but in the vast majority of the cases above I’ve not even been called for an interview. Summa summarum, the papers of a thirty-something educated male look worse on the table of the potential employers than those of a potential mother.

That’s my experience. If Anna or someone else has a first-hand story on the contrary, I’d be interested in hearing them.

“But you put your finger on it. Finns are the most honest people around and they trust one another.”
– They do lie when they tell you in English “I will call you back.” Never happens.

“Americans (and just about everyone else) are much less reliable and so employers don’t trust them.” What experience do you have that Americans were unreliable? I was working in Finland because I was more reliable than any Finns than they could find. The Finn I was trained with in the port quit only two weeks after training. He went back to a less-demanding position.

As for people being sick in my office, I require that they bring in a doctor’s note declaring that they are fit for work if they are out three days in a week or in a row. Many companies have the same requirement. In this company, your sick days are given to you as part of your vacation.

That’s my experience. If Anna or someone else has a first-hand story on the contrary, I’d be interested in hearing them.

Now there I would be violating god knows what since I was mostly referring to my experience in being one of the interviewers.

Anna…with regard to the no limit to sick time….

Perhaps ‘being sick’ covers a very, very wide range of ailments but being out of the office for four months with nothing life threatening or having a limb cut off along with going to Hawaii for 2 weeks for a company paid conference and his own wedding/honeymoon does stretch the limits of what one might consider in the realm of the plausible.

Having sick days available to use is great, but there are plenty of people who abuse them to various degrees. The thought that Finns are universally pure and honest as the driven snow is a quaint notion.

Fred,

“I was working in Finland because I was more reliable than any Finns they could find”

Seriously, you have to be kidding. True or not they would not have known before they hired you. Secondly, I’ve worked in many different companies here and there are a huge number of Finns who are a hundred percent reliable. And you obviously can’t beat that.

Finns perceive themselves as honest and are percived by people who do business here as honest. That’s not the same as being true but one wonders where the credible counter-evidence could come from. Americans are not perceived as honest and with the exception of you, don’t see themselves as honest in the way Finns do.

Oh well, now you bastards jinxed me. Woke up today with a swollen and sore throat. Must be the bird flu, beak is dripping and I feel as if I have a chicken brain. Need to go back to bed.

Though I will probably do some distance stuff, so as to not cause any schedule clogs. I’d need a week off for stress if *that* happened.

My brother worked in Norway as a constuction welder, like many other finns. Their boss told that he would rather have a drunken finn in the site than avg. norwegian. Partly that’s caused by their oil money covered safety net. Talking about wellfare country, there hangover is sickness, and they afford it.

And other thing, I have been at home with sick kids atleast as much as my wife, or even more. That’s my effort towards the equality of men and women. Or is it really only mothers responsibility?

“In this company, your sick days are given to you as part of your vacation.”

If this is a Finnish company they are clearly breaking the law. Sick days are not allowed to be counted as vacation.

Anne says a few things in her 17 statement:

“What, so it’s kind of their own fault for having kids?

If children are ill in the US they’re just left home alone to cry about their fever?”

I spent my childhood in the US. My mother and the mothers of my classmates took care of us children whenever we were sick from school. Always. Or they had relatives or helpers to care for us in their absence. Mothers around the world care for their children. That is something that I learned from living in various countries over the years. Finns do not have a monopoly on loving children.

“It’s quite rare in Finland to be paid whatever the employer feels you deserve. I think it’s an American idea that the employee gets more money if the boss likes their face.

In most jobs there’s a general contract negotiated by the unions that determines how much a person in a given post makes.”

LOL. “It is quite rare in Finland to be paid whatever the employer feels you deserve.” Fortunately, in almost all cases where I worked in whatever country I lived (including Finland), this was not true. Almost always in Finland, I received a higher wage than my co-workers because I worked harder, and the employer paid me what he felt I deserved to maintain my higher level of productivity. I was happier because I was rewarded for my work performance, and the employer was happier because he received a relatively better performance from me. The only people who were not happy were a small handful of jealous, resentful and lazy co-workers. Incidentally, no one likes my face. I am quite an ugly guy. But, they did like my work.

Perhaps ‘being sick’ covers a very, very wide range of ailments but being out of the office for four months with nothing life threatening or having a limb cut off along with going to Hawaii for 2 weeks for a company paid conference and his own wedding/honeymoon does stretch the limits of what one might consider in the realm of the plausible.

Well naturally I did not give an opinion about the particular case you brought up, because I don’t know anything about it. Being absent for that long should not be a simple matter of just not showing up to work, but rather quite a bureaucratic process with Kela, your doctor and your employer. Unless you work for a Finnish university where I can actually see something like that happening, I’d suggest there’s something seriously wrong with the way your company is run.

The thought that Finns are universally pure and honest as the driven snow is a quaint notion.

Well I’m not terribly fond of the opposite approach either. Thinking all people are greedy, lying bastards will just lead to “oh yeah, and I know this guy who so abuses the system” -> they’re all like that -> let’s get rid of welfare provisions. Nope, I can’t think like that.

26, Peter, IT sector? Yeah, they’re generally not very well organised into unions.

“Seriously, you have to be kidding. True or not they would not have known before they hired you.”
– No, not other than looking at my resume. At the time I was a licensed ship officer and I was interviewed by a former ship Captain. Working on ships was good enough for him. My interview consisted of him telling me that the job was not that bad and that I should see him if I had thoughts of quitting. I was hired in March as “Summer Help.” because the four regular employees were going on summer vacation. When the first two came back the second two went on vacation. THEN the first two went on sick leave for TWO MORE WEEKS and I was there by myself. So he might not have known about me, but he knew how reliable his regular employees were. They reliably went on sick leave after vacation each year.

“Secondly, I’ve worked in many different companies here and there are a huge number of Finns who are a hundred percent reliable. And you obviously can’t beat that.”
- You can’t beat 100% but there are many less than performing Finns. I left Finland five years ago. Just last year I was contact by my last Finnish employer asking if I wanted to come back and then takeover the division after the current leader retires in two years.

Perception and reality are two different things.

No I am not trashing Finnish workers. Working in Finland and in the US is different.

I am not an IT person. And in Finland, I worked almost entirely for employers that had unionized workers. And I always received a abit more than my co-workers.

Once in America, I also worked in an union setting, and unfortunately, only received the standard union wage, which led to a “why bother to work any harder” attitude, not only from me but everybody else. Furthermore, this company also had an affirmative action program for minorities (which greatly limited promotional opportunities for white male workers, in favour of ethnic minorities and women)to redress past discrimination suffered by these groups. However, it was a real downer to be constantly passed over for promotion by relatively lower skilled and qualifiedd co-workers, strictly on the basis of race or gender. It made me appreciate the evils of discrimination whatever the reason. Incidentally, the union at this US employer was greatly responsible for the earlier discrimination against minorities, and not the employer, which was rather enlightened and liberal.

The Finnish conditions vary quite a bit depending on the company. The previous (American) IT multinational I worked for had 5 sick days even without a doctor’s certificate, and they would pay full salary for up to 5 months of sickleave. Plus there were benefits for dentist and optician costs. All the while my wife in a part time job needed a visit to the dreaded terveyskeskus with 40 degrees fever just to be absent one day…

In the ideal world of course there would not be paid sick days at all. In the halcyon Victorian days of almost completely free market that used to be the case. One wonders why they stopped doing that, the bloody socialists!

“I don’t think Americans would be more likely to pretend they’re sick, I’ve just noticed that Finns are more likely to unconditionally trust one another.”

I doubt this has got anything to do with trust. The emloyers are not idiots. They might recognize a bit of themselves in their employees. It’s a custom to have sickleaves for minor reasons, a habit, not an issue of trust. They might look over it simply because they know of being guilty of it themselves as well.

“sore throats, sneezing, coughing, cold symptoms”

These are hardly a reason to stay home, not even in Finland. Fever is a bit different thing , usually associated with the rest of the symptons above, but sneezing and coughing alone are not.

It’s true that you’re just one call away from staying at home if you’re sick in Finland.
I do of course think that it’s good that people who are sick stay away from work, but I do sometimes wonder if it’s good that people can get to stay away from work that easy. I’m not saying that people tend to use this for their own good, but some people might have realized that it’s a great way to stay away from work and have a day off.

It’s probably the army. In the Finnish army, if you go VP (vapaa palveluksesta, free from service) you’re instantly treated as a lower lifeform. Well, almost. I heard that in some companies, even temporary VMTL (usually exercise-, and sports injuries!) may be grounds for barring you the righ— privilege to visit the cafe. Getting a VP results in all furloughs/shoreleaves being denied. What does a sick soldier need a weekend for.

“if you go VP (vapaa palveluksesta, free from service) you’re instantly treated as a lower lifeform.”

When was the last time you were in the army? Some might look down on you but the rest are just purely jealous and want to be in your position.

I don’t know if it is much easier to be sick, at least in some parts of the country, as my wife has to get a sickness evidence from the health care if she is away even for a day with illness. Stupid company has its health care provider in another district to where we live, so she has to travel the same distance to work to see the health care person (arbetshälsovÃ¥rd) instead of our own local one. Mostly in any case. Dumn rules.

“I’ve just noticed that Finns are more likely to unconditionally trust one another.”
There’s been studies about perceived/assumed honesty in different cultures. (Denmark scored highest, Brazil lowest, but I can’t remember what countries were included in the sample.)
If you can assume that others are honest, you spend less time checking up on them. A lot more efficient, that.

Well, I work on IT and when I do get sick, I’ll call my boss to arrange my work and he tells me to stay home until I’m well. In this field in my experience there is trust between the employer and employee, by necessity due to the nature of the work. Ultimately whether I do my job well or not is up to me, how I manage my time is my business. The alternative would be to have a huge and unproductive mid-management in place. It’s kind of like the banks, x% of their income is wasted or even stolen, but to stop that would take y% and propably would lead to magnitude of higher productivity losts of z% due to bureaucracy, and z + y is whole lot more than x.

Oh and btw, in my experience the guy who calls sick and doesn’t appear for a month has either a serious illness or is burned out, and the latter type tend to be quite productive until they snap.

Isn’t the whole point of a ‘sick day’ to stay home and rest while you are sick? I do not see why buisnesses in America make such a big deal out of it. . . Would they rather have the whole office sick, which would affect their work quality, and quanity and their customers. . . it makes sense to take off for a sick day when you are sick.

“I do not see why buisnesses in America make such a big deal out of it. . . Would they rather have the whole office sick, which would affect their work quality, and quanity and their customers.”

In theory yes. In practice, I don’t see others in the office getting sick from other sick employees because they come to work. The again we all like to maintain a safe distance from each other. Good hygene does not hurt too. Anyway, they are probably carrying whatever they have to spread before they even show any symptons.

Also, lets remember that not everyting is contagious, like sneezing due to alergies, or a sore throat, or arthritis, the list of employee ailments is huge. There is also a difference if your sitting at a desk or if you are doing something physical.

More national self-stereotyping here: http://www.zompist.com/amercult.html

Check this out: this 100 year old was only absent from work only one day in 76 or so years, that was on the day that his wife died:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4841942.stm

Finns, in my experience, do not conform to the postive stereotypes that THEY have created for THEMSELVES

They might LOOK serious and earnest. However, I have found them to be quite dishonest, especially in a work related situation. For example, promising to pay X to start a job in Finland, and then once the person is in Finland they try to pay LESS than what they originally promised. This has happened on 3 seperate occassions to 3 different Britis ex-pats who have been lured to Finland on a false promise. Finnish honesty. Yes, it would be nice if there WAS some.

I really like the layout and colors that you chose for this website! It certainly is incredible!

This is a one super duper site

People are most likely to become infected by HSV-1 by exposure to someone with a cold sore. A cold sore goes through several phases before it disappears. The tingle stage is the first. At this point, the cold sore has not yet formed, but the virus has been reactivated. The risk of spreading the virus increases at this time, but the risk is highest when the sore is in the weeping stage. This is when the sore bursts open and expels a clear liquid. Even during the crusting stage, when the sore is scabbed over, the risk of infection is greater than normal.