When I was at Akateeminen today, and they were selling the Finnish language version of the book for much less than EUR 40 – and the original English version – without the translator’s cut – was less than EUR 15. OK, it’s (slightly) cheaper at Amazon (USA) but that’s only because the Bush administration has managed to trash the US currency.

I just hate the bitch! When the Americans were bringin democracy to those ungreatful Vietnamese devils, she had the nerve to criticize them for it. Let me guess; the broad doesn’t even like that millions of the Iraqis are enjoying freedom and security that was given to them by the wise men in the DC. She is sick, I am telling you!

There was a time when most Finns did not think greatly of those Finns who broadcast for Radio Moscow during wartime.

I can’t remember the name, but Finland had its own “Tokyo Rose” in Moscow at the time. My mother still remembers her shrill denunciations for the Finnish invasion during the Continuation War. The message was basically the same as Jane Fonda’s.

In an effort to explain why she made her broadcasts over Radio Hanoi, Fonda writes in her autobiography that she had mainly wanted to educate U.S. pilots about the great harm their bombing campaigns were inflicting on innocent people. But in fact, most of what Fonda said was of a highly political nature; clearly, many of the statements had been scripted for her by the North Vietnamese. Among these statements were the following (as catalogued by Henry Mark Holzer):

. The Vietnamese people were peasants—leading a peaceful, bucolic life before the Americans came to destroy Vietnam.
. The Vietnamese seek only “freedom and independence”—which the United States wants to prevent them from having.
. The million infantry troops which the United States put into Vietnam, and the Vietnamization program, have failed.
. Patrick Henry’s slogan “liberty or death” was not very different from Ho Chi Minh’s “Nothing is more valuable than independence and freedom.”
. President Nixon had violated the 1954 Geneva Accords.
. The United States must get out of South Vietnam and “cease its support for the . . . Thieu regime.”
. “I want to publicly accuse Nixon here of being a new-type Hitler whose crimes are being unveiled.”
. “The Vietnamese people will win.”
. “Nixon is continuing to risk your [American pilots'] lives and the lives of the American prisoners of war . . . in a last desperate gamble to keep his office come November. How does it feel to be used as pawns? You may be shot down, you may perhaps even be killed, but for what, and for whom?”
. Nixon “defiles our flag and all that it stands for in the eyes of the entire world.”
. “Knowing who was doing the lying, should you then allow these same people and some liars to define for you who your enemy is?”
. American troops are fighting for ESSO, Shell and Coca-Cola.
. “Should we be fighting on the side of the people who are, who are murdering innocent people, should we be trying to defend a government in Saigon which is putting in jail tens of thousands of people into the tiger cages, beating them, torturing them . . . . And I don’t think . . . that we should be risking our lives or fighting to defend that kind of government.”
. “We . . . have a common enemy—U. S. imperialism.”
. “We thank you [the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese] for your brave and heroic fight.”
. “Nixon’s aggression against Vietnam is a racist aggression [and] the American war in Vietnam is a racist war, a white man’s war.”
. Soldiers of the South Vietnamese army “are being sent to fight a war that is not in your interests but is in the interests of the small handful of people who have gotten rich and hope to get richer off this war and the turning of your country into a neocolony of the United States.”
. “The only way to end the war is for the United States to withdraw all its troops, all its airplanes, its bombs, its generals, its CIA advisors and to stop the support of the . . . regime in Saigon . . . .”
. “There is only one way to stop Richard Nixon from committing mass genocide in the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and that is for a mass protest . . . to expose his crimes . . . .”
. “In 1969—1970 the desertions in the American army tripled. The desertions of the U.S. soldiers almost equaled the desertions from the ARVN army . . . .”
. American soldiers in Vietnam discovered “that their officers were incompetent, usually drunk . . . .”
. “Perhaps the soldiers . . . who have suffered the most . . . [are] the black soldiers, the brown soldiers, and the red and Asian soldiers.”
. Recently I talked to “a great many of these guys and they all expressed their recognition of the fact that this is a white man’s war, a white businessman’s war, that they don’t feel it’s their place to kill other people of color when at home they themselves are oppressed and prevented from determining their own lives.”
. “I heard horrifying stories about the treatment of women in the U.S. military. So many women said to me that one of the first things that happens to them when they enter the service is that they are taken to see the company psychiatrist and they are given a little lecture which is made very clear to them that they are there to service the men.”
. “The POWs appear to be healthy and fit. . . . All of them have called publicly for an end to the war and signed a powerful antiwar letter . . . .”
. “A few of them [the POWs] tell me they, too, are against the war and want Nixon to be defeated in the upcoming elections. They express their fear that if he is reelected, the war will go on and on . . . and that bombs might land on their prison.”
. “I am asked to convey their hopes that their families will vote for George McGovern.”
. “I ask them [POWs] if they feel they have been brainwashed or tortured, and they laugh.”
. “We read with interest about the growing numbers of you [South Vietnam Army troops] who are understanding the truth and joining with your fellow countrymen to fight for freedom and independence and democracy [i.e., with the Communists]. . . . We think that this is an example of the fact that the democratic, peace-loving, patriotic Vietnamese people want to embrace all Vietnamese people in forgiveness, open their arms to all people who are willing to fight against the foreign intruder.

Such statements could have had only one purpose: to provide aid and comfort to America’s Communist enemy. Fonda’s propaganda efforts played a major role in prolonging the war and increasing the death toll. As North Vietnamese Colonel Bui Tin explained in a postwar interview with The Wall Street Journal, the American antiwar movement “was essential to our strategy. Support for the war from our rear [China] was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda . . . gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses.”

“I can’t remember the name, but Finland had its own “Tokyo Rose” in Moscow at the time”

Ah, Moskovan Tiltu. I think her real name was Aino Kallio. Here is a sample

http://www.histdoc.net/historia/pic/tiltu.ra

My parents lived in the Soviet Union in the 1970′s (and not because of ideological reasons.) They remember listening to YLE’s “Naapurineljännes” and grinding their teeth with desesperation. I had a chance to listen to some of the programmes and my god what naïve BS.

“..doesn’t even like that millions of the Iraqis are enjoying freedom and security that was given to them by the wise men in the DC.”

*GROAN* DD

That’s it! Thanks, Antti.

Irony and satire are two forms of art that are not easily recognised in Finnish culture therefore, at the risk of insulting the intelligence of some of the readers of this web site, I wish to point out that comment #2 by “Petteri” is a joke.

As for “Finnpundit”‘s contribution (number 3), yes, there was a Finnish equivalent of “Tokyo Rose” on Radio Moscow – known by the Finns as “Tiltu”. According to a Wikipedia article, http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskovan_Tiltu Finnish soldiers were actually encouraged by their superiors to listen to her broadcasts: as they were so off the wall, as to be self-parodying.

By comparison, Jane Fonda’s message at the time made fairly good sense – which is why the Republican establishment is still shitting in their collective pants over it.

There is a Marlene Dietrich Strasse in Berlin. Wonder when there will be a Jane Fonde Avenue in Washington?

Jane Fonda’s message at the time made fairly good sense

Wrong. It made no sense at the time, and Jane Fonda herself has apologized for it on numerous occasions, citing her senseless youthful idealism as the reason.

It was both sensible and morally right of her to take the stand that she took during the Vietnam war. Recanting was simply expedient from a political point of view.

Regarding Tiltu, the Wikipedia article links to a Pravda article: http://www.histdoc.net/historia/pravda1.html with a strikingly similar message to most of Finnpundit’s ramblings.

She’s ugly.

MS: You have obviously never seen Barbarella – or Coming Home, or On Golden Pond, for that matter.

Recanting was simply expedient from a political point of view.

Wrong again. Her views became more tolerable to the public after the US withdrawal, so there was no need to recant for political purposes.

She has simply expressed remorse for being a traitor during wartime.

Oops… Even worse, she’s a born-again Christian:(

“Why be a born-again when you can just grow up?”

Will she sign the book:

Hanoi Jane

This reminds me of movie: “A Fish Called Wanda”.

Regarding Tiltu, the Wikipedia article links to a Pravda article published around the beginning of the Winter War that is eerily similar in tone to most of Finnpundit’s ramblings about evil little Finland.

Not that this is totally surprising. Both vomits of hate speech are fueled by similar ideologies.

Finnpundit’s post number 3 would be true, if Vietnam had been trying to invade and conquer the US and not vice versa.

As for treason, in the US only waging war on the US is treason.
Because the Founding Fathers were quite familiar with the habit of would-be tyrants of branding all opponents of their policies as traitors. (Google Aaron Burr for details.)

KGS59: “Fonda’s propaganda efforts played a major role in prolonging the war and increasing the death toll.”

No, the antiwar movement shortened the war by drawing attention to its futility and persuading the US to give up the effort (although not nearly soon enough). The pro-war hawks were the ones that prolonged the bloodshed, and it would have stretched it out even more if it had not been for the escalating dissent.

Dear KGS59:
Thank you for printing what you did. Some people aren’t aware that G.I. Jane had a major impact on American Veterans, or; at the time, American Soldiers. We did not belong in Vietnam. Although Jane Fonda has apologized for her comments, it comes late.
As for Vietnam in general: imagine being hunkered down in the jungles with machine gun fire whizzing over your head, hot as hell and some of your buddies have been killed before your eyes. Think how those men felt knowing that back home they were not supported. That people were angry instead of supportive. Self esteem basher. A lot of those soldiers suffered from P.T.S.D (Post traumatic stress disorder,a term coined as a result of Vietnam) and their lives changed forever. No parades to welcome them home like back in WWII.
Read her book, or don’t read her book, like her or not; but those that are doing the same thing to the troops over in Iraq have a hell of a nerve. Iraq is not Vietnam. I cringe every time I hear anyone refer to them as the same. We are building a working society there, where, eventually; they will catch up to the rest of the world. I only wish their Government were working at the same pace as the rest of the country.

Ms. New Jersesy is suggesting that the worst, and possibly only tragedy about America’s misguided military adventures is that it is depriving the poor innocent US soldiers (who inflict far more casualties than they sustain) are being deprived of the self-evident American entitlement to feel good about themselves. What narcissistic bullshit!

Sure, Iraq is not Vietnam. Iraq is an Arab country of deserts, Vietnam is a Southeast Asian country of jungles. Otherwise the paralells would be quite astounding to anyone bothering to take his or her rose-coloured glasses off.

By the way, I remember back in the days of the Vietnam War many veterans actually agreed with Jane Fonda, who worked quite closely with them.

“We are building a working society there” (Ms. New Jersey)

No, you’re not. You have no political base in Iraq. You’ve done nothing for reconstruction. You provide no security of any kind. You’ve done nothing to organize local government, which has been taken over by local activists (Kurdish nationalists in the north, religious leaders everywhere else). The ‘Iraqi government’ you have created has no forces, no money, no significance of any kind. It’s local representatives either work with the local bosses or they die.

All you can do is run around Iraq bombing, killing and destroying.
The sooner you get out the better for everybody.

Can’t say WTF you actually are trying.
Could be the old Roman policy, make a desert and call it peace.

Ms.New Jersey is ‘spot on’. N.Vietnamese counted on the ‘fifth column’ of peaceniks and the Leftist media to bring pressure on the States, otherwise the Tet offencive would have indeed been their end …as it should have been.

I agree with Kimmo W, in that a comparison can be drawn from that period to toady’s Iraqi war, in that the loony toones are out in number as before, but with the advent of the internet, they can’t get away with theirs as before.

@KGS59, post 25
The US mainstream was quite gung-ho until they saw that the war was going very badly indeed. Once they decided that Vietnam wasn’t worth the trouble, withdrawal was inevitable. Very sad for the Saigon fat cats, good for everybody else. The peace movement’s only effect on the war may have been to prevent Nixon from using bombing on the scale he wanted to.
Dolchstoss theories (‘We were victorious in the field but the traitors stabbed us in the back’) are insane and dangerous, as the Germans found out the hard way.

I read the book some time ago. Fonda is apologizing for all kinds of things but not for her activism. She still thinks that the Vietnam war was wrong. And she was right, so, why apologize?

As for Vietnam in general: imagine being hunkered down in the jungles with machine gun fire whizzing over your head, hot as hell and some of your buddies have been killed before your eyes. Think how those men felt knowing that back home they were not supported. That people were angry instead of supportive.

Yes, absolutely terrible. I’m sure the feeling was shared by many Waffen-SS veterans, even here in Finland.

Dear KGS59:
I guess I missed the boat on that one, to some extent. Kimmo is right that there are parallels that can be drawn, up to a point. You must remember though that nobody went into Vietnam with a plan for their Government; to help them democratize. We are doing so with Iraq. Also, please look at some things: 1)the U.S. and U.K. have taken soldiers from Iraq and brought them to the U.S and U.K. for military training. One such detail went to Wales for that in 2005. 2) there are approximately 10 functioning Iraqi military units. 3) there are schools being built and doctor exchanges going on so that Iraqi doctors can be better equipt to do their job.
As for the looney tunes that are out there, they are; of course and intent upon staying out there unless shown that the people are gonna live their lives irrespective of them. How do you get 3 distinct groups of Muslims to agree? You don’t. You get them to meet in the middle. That way they can run a government. Mr. Griffin (of England’s SAS)left the Armed serivces on Moral grounds. Proof that some bad things are going on in Iraq, that the soldiers are participating in. Hostage taking, and death squads aside, progress is being made there.
As for the internet; well, the word is mightier than the sword. Anyone can talk and rant about what they want to do to someone else, and they can even do it on the internet if they please. It takes a bigger person to ignore the ranting and raving and look for peaceful ways to get themselves heard. The Lord is mightier than the sword.

Not to mention imagine being a five year old child, hunkered down in the jungle with machine gun whizzing over your head, hot as hell from the napalm burning your skin and your parents have been killed before your eyes.

@post 29
’10 functioning Iraqi military units’
Functioning as parts of the US military, not as the army of a sovereign Iraqi state. They are under American control and have no independent capability. Native auxiliaries of a colonial power in other words.

As for the plan to help Iraq democratize, wasn’t the original plan for Paul Bremer to decide everything and the natives were supposed to be so grateful they’d do anything he ordered? If the Iraqis hadn’t insisted on elections, they’d have never been held.

“It takes a bigger person to ignore the ranting and raving and look for peaceful ways to get themselves heard.”

Like Bush and the Military-Industrial Complex?

“The Lord is mightier than the sword.”

Not only is she a war monger – she’s a blasphemer too!

“No, the antiwar movement shortened the war by drawing attention to its futility and persuading the US to give up the effort (although not nearly soon enough).”

No. What the anti-war movement did was act like a fifth-column within the US. Just look at John Kerry’s actions:

– Secret meetings to discuss the assasination of US Congressmen.
– Secret meetings with N. Vietnam in France diccussing surrender.

All this from just one guy. Even the North Vietnamese thank Kerry and the Anti-war movement to this day as a big reason the US pulled out.

“The pro-war hawks were the ones that prolonged the bloodshed, and it would have stretched it out even more if it had not been for the escalating dissent.”

You mean the pro-war hawks in Moskow who funding the north right?

——
Nobody bothered to mention that the Frence started this whole mess in the 40”s. Nor did anyone mention that the Northed asked the US for help in kicking the French out of Vietnam. Too bad we went in there to cover the French withdrawal.

You guys have a problem with free speech? Bush seems to.

“No. What the anti-war movement did was act like a fifth-column within the US. Just look at John Kerry’s actions:
- Secret meetings to discuss the assasination of US Congressmen.”

Some of the more bizarre Internet folklore used in the character assassination campaign of the ’04 presidential race. If he did that, he would be in jail.

“- Secret meetings with N. Vietnam in France diccussing surrender.”

Do you actually claim that Kerry was in a position to “discuss surrender”?

“You mean the pro-war hawks in Moskow who funding the north right?”

Sure, the Soviet Union supplied North Vietnam with equipment. Why not? It was expedient for them to do so. But it was the North Vietnamese and the NLF who used it and did the fighting and dying. The Americans had to bring in their own soldiers because the side they were backing was not motivated enough to do it themselves.

“Too bad we went in there to cover the French withdrawal.”

Yes. Too bad you went there.

@Fred Fry
You did not ‘cover the French withdrawal’, you took over after they had already left. Your war, your choice. Same old traitors working for a foreign overlord, though. And this mess did not start in the 1940′s, it started when the French conquered Vietnam. It ended when the Vietnamese got all of their country back.

Fred: those stories about Kerry were Swift Boat Vets’ lies. Same sick people came up with the stories about John McCain’s insanity in the 2000 Republican primaries. Absolutely tasteless and despicable but some people are apparently willing to believe anything about their political opponents. It still amazes me that Karl Rove and his people would have so little decency that they made a big campaign issue out of these lies that everybody knew were lies to begin with. But that’s where politics is going these days: no need in discussing issues when you can spend all your money and energy in character assassination of the most infantile sort.

“Sure, the Soviet Union supplied North Vietnam with equipment. Why not? It was expedient for them to do so. But it was the North Vietnamese and the NLF who used it and did the fighting and dying.”

I guess you missed the news a couple years back that there were thousands of ‘Soviet Advisers’ including pilots in North Vietnam helping the Vietnamese.

“Fred: those stories about Kerry were Swift Boat Vets’ lies.”

Call them lies if you want. Lets look at a couple of facts:

– Kerry’s first purple heart – self awarded without an injury.
– The FBI has documents that he attended meetings where the discussion covered assasination of US Congressmen. And no, none of them were arrested.
– Kerry had to retract the claim that he was in Cambodia over Christmas. This was one of the LIES brought out by the swift-vets.
– Kerry has yet to release his full military records. He only released some. Even Bush gave full disclosure. Not only did he not do it, but he tried to deceive the public by authorizing the release of some, and only to the press.
– He has yet to explain why all of his documents were re-issued in the 70s and none of the government records are from the time of the original issue.
– Kerry did meet with the North Vietnamese in Paris about US withdrawal. No, did could not discuss surrender. However, he was in a position both to explain to the Vietnamese their actions that most sway US opinion, ie, send more American bodies home in body bags. Explain how the US military operates and it’s weaknesses. He was also in a position to accept requests from the North Vietnamese on how they wanted the Anti-war movement to be used and even disclose US failures to the anti-war movement for publication in the US. This is called treason, regardless if you are in a position of power or not. Jane had no power either. Doesn’t mean that she’s not a traitor too.

It is suspected that Kerry got an other than honorable discharge from the Navy, and then that was later changed by Carter who pardoned all those who ran into military trouble during Vietnam.

Kerry got a pass from the MSM who was too busy faking documents about Bush’s military career. Read CBS’s own report about the fake document. It is an eye opener. Eventually the story will come out about Kerry. Too bad we have to wait for him to die so see what his military record hides.

As for Jane, the US Military should have proved her right by dropping a bomb on the meeting in the picture.

Well, Fred, for all your ranting, one simple fact remains about the Vietnam war.

You lost.

“Kerry’s first purple heart – self awarded without an injury.”

Did even the Swift Boat Vets said it was without an injury? I think they were saying Kerry’s injury was according to them too slight to deserve a purple heart. They were saying that if a bullet just doesn’t hit you deep enough it doesn’t really count. They had nothing to say about Kerry’s second and third purple hearts. Of course nothing similar as the story of Kerry’s first purple heart never happened to any of the Swift Boat Vets. Who cares, none of them was running for President anyway. And Bush and Cheney didn’t fight so they certainly have nothing to hide about their Vietnam War records. Kerry fought in the war and showed considerable courage under fire. But then, of course, you value the actions of Bush and Cheney much more.

It’s stupid that the campaign focused so heavily on what any of them did during the 1970s rather than the 21st Century but both parties seemed to like it that way.

Fred, the facts you present are innuendo and speculation to me. On the same ground you dismiss every negative thing said about Bush and Cheney.

John Kerry and John McCain and many others are traitors to these Swift Boat Vets (even McCain because he supported the normalisation of the US-Vietnamese relations in the 1990s) and their heroes are people like Bush and Cheney who had other things on their minds when the war was going on.

N.Siinistö: “You Lost”

More correctly, the S.Vietnamese people lost, as well as the rest of south East Asia. with 2.5 million murdered in the communist paradise, and millions more not wanting to endure ”re-education having to leave as refugees. Many more drowned in the attempt.

Vietnam is still a back water in comparison to S.Korea, yep, its the Vietnamese that lost when the US pulled out due to the fifth column’s (anti-war crowd)pressure.

“Kerry’s first purple heart – self awarded without an injury.”
– Sorry, self inflicked wound. Not enemy action. Self-inclicked woulds do not qualify for the purple heart.

“Did even the Swift Boat Vets said it was without an injury? I think they were saying Kerry’s injury was according to them too slight to deserve a purple heart. They were saying that if a bullet just doesn’t hit you deep enough it doesn’t really count.”
– Self inflicted.

“They had nothing to say about Kerry’s second and third purple hearts.”
They did:
– None of his woulds required any time in a hospital.
– He was never struck by a bullet.

Of course nothing similar as the story of Kerry’s first purple heart never happened to any of the Swift Boat Vets.
– The swift boat vets spend more than 4 months in Vietnam.

And Bush and Cheney didn’t fight so they certainly have nothing to hide about their Vietnam War records.
– Bush was in the Guard and for some reason the press thinks he does have something. It is the press hiding things about Bush’s record. Like someone pulled strings to get him onto the Guard unit. Not mentioned was that the Texas Air National Guard had no waiting list. There were available spots when he joined.

It’s stupid that the campaign focused so heavily on what any of them did during the 1970s rather than the 21st Century but both parties seemed to like it that way.
– The only reason the war was even brought up was because the Democrats ran Kerry as a war hero and Bush a war 0.
– I agree. It was somewhat irrelevent, except in the end backfired on Kerry once his follow vets spoke up.

Fred, the facts you present are innuendo and speculation to me. On the same ground you dismiss every negative thing said about Bush and Cheney.
– It all depends on what the charges are and who is making them. Lets look at some of the charges against Bush:

– Lied about WMD in IRAQ
– Lied about Osama – Iraq link
– Plamegate
– Illegally wiretapping Americans

All of this is nothing more than political static.

The left needs to realize that Bush is not running for re-election. Bush is hated by many and he still one. What is going to happen in 08 when a less-hated Republican runs…..

Yes, the Vietnam war (not just its outcome) was a massive tragedy for the Vietnamese people, and yes, the country does have some problems. What country wouldn’t, after having been so extensively bombed, strafed, shot up, and agent oranged by their “liberators”?

Yes, South Korea is doing better for now: might the fact that their little Cold War sideshow had been over for more than 20 years when the panic rush was on at the US embassy helipad in Saigon have something to do with that? Nevertheless, people I know who have visited Vietnam say that the people there generally tend to think that life is worth living even in their country. They have a free market and a consumer culture to a far greater extent than North Korea, for instance.

Do those 2.5 million murdered Southeast Asians include the victims of Cambodia’s the Khmer Rouge? It’s the group that was able to take power after the USA had first undermined the neutral government of Norodom Sihanouk, installed a hated right wing government, that was then overthrown by the KR when the US war machine finally collapsed.

So, KGS59, you’re saying that things would have gone “better” (the war would have lasted longer, more people would have been killed … whatever) if the US war effort had not been undermined by anti-war fifth columnists.

What you are saying is that things would have gone differently, if large numbers of Americans had unquestioningly accepted the increasingly incredible stuff that their administration was putting out: if they had not seen what they saw, heard what they heard, felt what they felt, and reacted according to the principles of free speech that they learned in civics class at school, and expressed their views.

If pigs had wings, they’d be eagles.

Kimmo,
N.Vietnamese generals have long been on record as thanking the anti-war crowd for their services rendered. Back in 1968 when the Viet Kong were defeated as an effective military/insurgency force in the South (the biggest myth being the North was fighting a war of nationalism) that they are then ”breathed life into” by the idiots in the West. The TET offencive was a military disaster for the North, but the US media turned into a major win.

Talk about grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

Now just like then, the Cindy Sheehans and the Jane Fondas of the looney Left (for the most part) are helping the Jihadists like they did their fellow utopians, the Communists, in giving totalitarianism a sense of hope. Great going!

Blaming Pol Pot’s genocide on the United States is yet another example of how the Left always exonerates itself from the human blood that its own ideas spawn. It is simply a historical fact that the Khmer Rouge would not have achieved significant gains in Cambodia had it not been for the help of their North Vietnamese mentors (against whom they would turn only later). Pol Pot would never have come to power if the U.S. had succeeded in its military objectives throughout the region.

The Khmer Rouge were fanatic Stalinists whose intellectual leaders, who had all been radicalized in France’s universities (they called themselves Angka Loeu – “the Higher Organization”), had meticulously planned their leftist social engineering experiment far before the American bombing of Cambodia.

The fact that Pol Pot was going to introduce ‘pure socialism’ is a relatively short time period spelled doom for its society as Pol Pot ‘culled the herd’ of ‘non-believers’ which usually consisted of people that could read or write or even wore glasses.

The 2.5 million Sout East Asians I talked earlier about was including that number, and its socialists and their supporters around the world that have thier hands bloodied over it, not the US gov’t.

According to your ‘white wash’ of that socialist hog wash, those pigs are Lear jets.

Re: #42 “All of this is nothing more than political static” and “What is going to happen in 08 when a less hated Republican runs…”.

The Republicans are going down in flames (they cannot run away fast enough from Bush now), and then sanity can regain a foothold in US politics.

prince of dorkness, you’re such a Finn, with these priggish, categorical accusations. Do you really, honestly believe that the US has done ‘nothing’ for Iraq reconstruction and security? billions and billions of dollars have been spent, but even you must be able to see that the sectarian hatreds are too strong for even the US to eliminate. What are you going to do, if you have two creeds living side by side who hate each other enough to slaughter one another without mercy? The amount of money, care and planning that the US has put into stabilizing Iraq is mind-boggling (and I have talked to several people working in the field here, believe me), which makes it so heartbreaking that the result hasn’t been a good one.

Regarding Vietnam: without the material support from countries like China and the USSR, and without the moral support of millions of people in the West and East–indeed, with the inspiration of the international communist ideology–the north Vietnamese communists would never had obtained the measure of support that they had, even amongst their own people. But they did, and the US ended up fighting an unwinnable war. Supporting Ho Che Minh and the NV communists was (and in places like finland, still is) considered the enlightened way to think. but what did these enlightened people end up supporting? Another totalitarian basket case, with millions of people desperate to escape from economic stagnation and re-education camps. Many Americans aren’t willing to accept that their government was guilty of war crimes in SE Asia, which cannot today be denied.
Are you supporters of the NV regime willing to take responsibility for its crimes? In these kinds of conversations, I never get the sense that the left ever acknowledges the sufferings of the Vietnamese people due to the actions of their own leadership, whose ascendancy they supported so fervently. After all, your whole-hearted moral support helped make these crimes possible.

Whatever one thinks of the morality of US methods in Vietnam, it’s undeniable that wherever the cause of Marxism triumphed, the result has been economic disaster, human misery, and the impoverishment and degredation of the human spirit. Compare Taiwan to China, Vietnam to South Korea, eastern Europe to western Europe, Finland to Karelia–the record speaks for itself. Think of the personality cults in China, Turkmenistan, North Korea. If the US had won, Nokia would be competing with Vietnamese cell phones. Instead, they’re cheap labor for SE Asian businesses, having finally joined the capitalist system that the so many fought against. It’s ludicrious for Finns to exalt in the American loss in Vietnam. If anything, it’s a tragedy for any liberal person that so much of the world supported an unworkable ideology that lead to such ruinous consequences.

“billions and billions of dollars have been spent, but even you must be able to see that the sectarian hatreds are too strong for even the US to eliminate.”

And it was supposed to be a cakewalk over rose petals thrown by grateful locals. Part of me wants to gloat, but it’s just too tragic.

“What are you going to do, if you have two creeds living side by side who hate each other enough to slaughter one another without mercy?”

What are you going to do? How about staying the hell out of the mess in the first place!

“The amount of money, care and planning that the US has put into stabilizing Iraq is mind-boggling (and I have talked to several people working in the field here, believe me), which makes it so heartbreaking that the result hasn’t been a good one.”

Nobody said that this quagmire was a cheap one!

“Regarding Vietnam: without the material support from countries like China and the USSR, and without the moral support of millions of people in the West and East … the north Vietnamese communists would never had obtained the measure of support that they had, even amongst their own people.”

The support material support from China and the Soviet Union would nomt have meant anything without millions of Vietnamese willing to suffer all kinds of deprivations in the war effort. The movement was basically a nationalist one. The fact that international communism was the main political beneficiary was certainly a major American and French screwup.

Certainly, Vietnam is no model country, but it remains to be proven that perpetuating the war there would have made things much better.

Bush has set a course for victory that will transform Iraq and the world for a generation and he is well on his way to success. Iraq is not bursting into Civil War as the media wants, and more media crying will not make it happen.

Me thinks you all are not getting the memo. So here it is:

Bush is in power for 2 more years, and he has the will to win.

That says it all folks. (No french wave of the white flag from Bush for those who want to quit)

The good thing about the Vietnam war was that it ended. (Despite ending wrong.) Look at North Korea. That war was never finished so here we are with a maniac state. A state that cannot even produce fertilizer. Then instead of paying for what they need, they demand it for free. Once Iran is taken care of, something will probably have to be done with North Korea. Either that or one day they will fall over the boarder in droves.

This post was about Hanoi Jane. She is a hero of Communist Vietnam and a traitor of the US. How times have changed. I don’t know what happened to ‘Tiltu’ but other traitors of WWII were executed once the shooting was all over. She should consider herself lucky.

As for Iraq. That will end in success too. Winter’s right. Time will tell.

“Bush has set a course for victory that will transform Iraq and the world for a generation and he is well on his way to success.”

Thanks, winter. There’s nothing like a good laugh to start the day!

“Iraq is not bursting into Civil War as the media wants, and more media crying will not make it happen.”

So it’s a great media conspiracy to undermine Dubya’s noble war effort by distorting the truth of what’s really happening in Iraq. What’s their motivation? What is the truth that they’re hiding? How do you know what is really happening in Iraq better than the media, which actually has journalists on the spot there?

For all of you mental contortionists whose information filter allows you to see the Iraq mess as both a noble cause and a success story, I recommend listening to a program I heard last night that had been broadcast on NPR a few hours earlier. In it, Diane Rehm interviews Francis Fukuyama, a former leading American neoconservative who has seen the light and understood the flaws of the Bush doctrine.

You can pick it up here:

http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/index.php

“So it’s a great media conspiracy to undermine Dubya’s noble war effort by distorting the truth of what’s really happening in Iraq. What’s their motivation?”
– Actually it’s to save their hides. Many reporters will not venture far from the Green zone.

What is the truth that they’re hiding?
– They only report bad news. See any good news from Iraq? Did you read the letter from the Mayor of Tall’afar? Have you even heard of it?

http://www.blackanthem.com/World/military_2006022502.html

“How do you know what is really happening in Iraq better than the media, which actually has journalists on the spot there?”
– How often do you see reporters reporting from any other place than from the Green Zone?
– Read a couple of blogs from Iraq. Try this one:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Thanks Fred Fry. There are two sides to a story, and I am not going to believe the MSM one.

But then again there was Dan Rathers fake documents to help out the MSM cause.

Even the way left BBC has figured it out now, and thinks Iraq is going quite well. That was a suprise.

Fred Fry:
“They only report bad news. See any good news from Iraq?”

Interesting logic: The fact that so little good news comes out of Iraq is evidence that the conspiratorial media hiding in the Green Zone is keeping the great Bush success story from us. And why are they so rarely venturing out of the Green Zone? Are they afraid that they might not be able to handle the tidal wave of good news that would hit them if they did?

“Read a couple of blogs from Iraq.”

Ah, yes, the infallible blogosphere….

winter:
“Thanks Fred Fry. There are two sides to a story, and I am not going to believe the MSM one.”

For someone professing the existence of two sides, that’s a rather one-sided point of view. (By the way, for the benefit of those readers who might not be familiar with American right-wing jargon, MSM means “mainstream media”, which is hated because of its lack of an overtly right-wing agenda.)

“Even the way left BBC has figured it out now, and thinks Iraq is going quite well. That was a suprise.”

Way left BBC? You’ve got to be kidding! (Although unfortunately, you probably aren’t.) My experience with the Beeb is that it does not collectively “think” in any single manner, and unlike propaganda machines like Fox News, reflects a broad diversity of views on various subjects.

But if the BBC is inherently untrustworthy, how can you trust items of good news that they might report?

Kimmo.

You are Correct on “BBC is inherently untrustworthy” as it took them 2 years to even figure out we actually won the war and were not still on the road to Baghdad.

Its so sad to see the left leaning MSN agenda unfold.

1)First they thought they had the killer reporter assigned to take out Bush weeks before an election, but all he had was fake documents.
2)Now They think they have a civil war, and nothing is really going on.
3) then The NEW YORK TIMES’ runs a story this week with a reported real live Abu Ghraib inmate, and guess again, he is a fake.

If it were not for blogs, we would all eat this trash up.

I guess when you really want something and reality hits you its time to eject eject eject

I messed that link up.

Here it is again:

I guess when you really want something and reality hits you its time to eject eject eject

“Interesting logic: The fact that so little good news comes out of Iraq is evidence that the conspiratorial media hiding in the Green Zone is keeping the great Bush success story from us”

Not exactly a conspiracy, more like they are not interested in being kidnapped or killed. Why is it that most of these attacks occur around the Green zone attacking check points? Why not go after the power and oil plants in the middle of nowhere? The news coming out of Iraq is just plain distorted.

Take Afghanistan. The news was all gloom and doom. Now you hear almost nothing from there. Surely there is good news there? Looking at the press, you would never know.

Take the polls here claiming that record lows for Bush approval. Blah, blah, blah. These are the same polls that declared Kerry the winner of the 04 Elections and Democrats the victors for the 02 mid-term congressional elections. Twice the MSM has had to apologize for distorted polling and they still poll way more Democrats than Republicans in these polls. I am sure no one remembers that the press admitted after the 2000 election that their coverage was biased against Bush.

By the Way, what happened with the book signing? Anyone bother to go?

The cold facts are killin the left. All those purple fingers shocked them, so now the news is a conspiricy of the right.

Its just not fair, to show facts to the left wing.

The purple fingers were certainly great photo-ops – reported by the lefty media!

How many here have even talked to an Iraqi? I work with one and he has send his son to Iraq twice now. He’s not complaining that the US is there. I also have an Iranian at the office. She keeps asking me when the US will free her country too. Spoke with another Iranian yesterday. When I found out where she was from, I asked her opinion about the Iranian President. “He should be shot. He’s an idiot.” I corrected her in that he is a dangerous idiot.

More on the media bias:

It is common that they report polls that people belive that the US is getting worse. What they don’t report is that these people say that THEIR situation has been getting better. Hmmm.

Wow, wish I had seen this earlier. Looks like Richard Belzer is applying to be the Iraq War Bahgdad Belzer. He gets all his news from the MSM and discounts whatever good soldiers IN Iraq have to say about the war, because they don’t have time to read newspapers:

Belzer Proclaims He Knows Better About Iraq than Uneducated Soldiers in Iraq: http://newsbusters.org/node/4503

Be sure to watch the video. Belzer is an example of how dilusional the left has become, thanks partly to the media.

Here’s an interview of Iraqs former interim prime minister Iyad Allawi, done by the oh so evil baby-eating leftist bbc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4821618.stm

Ms. New Jersey said:
“We are building a working society there, where, eventually; they will catch up to the rest of the world.”

Yup. You sure are building somekind of society over there. I’m just not that convinced that it’s the kind of society which will benefit the people of Iraq:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

Probably the only ones who’ll benefit are the american oil and military industries.

Åboy, you are wrong. of course they are building a working society in Iraq and also those torture pictures are a evil commie lie because thats what the ‘fair and balanced’ fox news told them so it must be true.

We must never believe those evil baby-eating leftist propaganda machines like bbc. Only the neo-cons and the religious right know the truth, heck they even have a straight fax connection to gods office in heaven

working society in Iraq????

How abou trying to get one in France. Anyone have a citron to burn?

How about those purple fingers. Kind of hard to hide them, even if they were a shock to the left wing MSM.

Yea we know the truth, and its in all those purple fingers.

hahahaa

neo-cons/fundamentalist christians always give you a good laugh.

They never dissapoint you with their arrogant and incredibly ignorant comments

This hits the nail on the head:

“The reporting on Operation Swarmer is a microcosm of the sub-par reporting on the Iraq war. Events are immediately placed into a political context. Commentary is often mixed in with reporting. There is little understanding of operational intent or how the military even works. Operations are viewed as individual events, and not placed in a greater context. Failure and faulty assumptions are the baseline for coverage and analysis. Success is arbitrarily determined by a reporter or editor’s biases. The actions of the U.S. and Iraqi military are viewed with suspicion and even contempt.

Just read the “objective” reports from Time’s Brian Bennett and Christopher Allbritton. Would they have preferred a bloody battle? Should the military sought their advice in advance to determine the size and composition of the assault force?”

thanks to : The fourth Rail

Fred Freedom Fry:
How many here have even talked to an Iraqi?

We talked to an Iraqi family some three years ago on a plane that was on its way to evil little Finland while their home country was being showered with clusters of Freedom(TM) and Democracy(TM). They were quite anxious to get out.

He gets all his news from the MSM and discounts whatever good soldiers IN Iraq have to say about the war

Oh yeah, the evil leftist MSM conspiracy is at it again. We should get the Truth from the Pentagon-sponsored cheerleaders embedded journalists or those soldiers’ blogs that have oh-so-spontaneously emerged. Or from Rush.

It is common that they report polls that people belive that the US is getting worse. What they don’t report is that these people say that THEIR situation has been getting better. Hmmm.

No doubt, Iraqis believe that their situation can only get better. Funny, though, how polls like these are quickly discredited when they indicate that people in an evil socialist welfare state like Finland are happy content with their lives. Those misguided commies.

Yea we know the truth, and its in all those purple fingers.

You know, they did have elections in Iraq before. Saddam Hussein was wildly popular. I’m sure the current US puppets are as well.

How abou trying to get one in France. Anyone have a citron to burn?

How’s that for a red herring? Why burn Citroëns, they’re far too classy to be used for firewood. Better get a cheap Chrysler. Costs next to nothing, thanks to the toilet paper currency. Oh, but that would make a freerider out of the American worker-consumer. Can’t have that. Better keep printing that money.

Here’s a useful recap of the predictions made about the Iraqi conflict:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/03/three-years-of-dragging-democrats.html

Finnpundit, why take the words of some politicians (carefully selected out of the context) if we can consult a real academic study of the issue? The following analysis, written by professional researchers from Yale, Harvard etc., was published by the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2002.

http:///www.amacad.org/publications/monographs/War_with_Iraq.pdf

The paper provides discussion about the validity of the reasons of the war and gives many different scenarios of what might happen. Many of them have clearly been flawed, but it nevertheless provides a good picture of the way people were aware of many of the possibly negative consequences of the war.

The way I read this, the results of invasion look now rather more like the “negative” than the “positive” set of expectations outlined in the paper. For example, the invasion and its aftermath has already proven a lot more costly than the “low cost scenario” given at page 77 (and this was for the years 2002-2012…)

A cursory glance at the study reveals the overt bias of the authors, so the study can mostly likely be easily dismissed. For example, they believe that US alliances and participation in various international institutions will be undermined throughout the world, when in fact the war has shown that those relationships were not worthwhile to maintain in the first place.

The American Academy of Arts and Sciences has a political slant, like all think tanks, and has to contend with a whole marketful of politicized think tanks. But it does not bode well when certain beliefs about the value of international organizations are premised before the study.

Another point, that the war will have negative consequences for economic growth in the US, simply hasn’t been borne out, as growth has been unexpectedly positive.

But an interesting study anyway. I will look at it further. Too bad its findings are not corroborated by Iraqi opinion today, some 70%, IIRC, of whom would not like to return to the status quo ante.

Ah the USA puppets in Iraq question again. All those Iraq’s who we control with some mind bending zapper ray.

Must be reading the BBC again.

Then there is a country producing 25% of the world GDP with only 5% of the world population. Anybody guess who that evil country is?

The problem in France is that people want some security in their lives and the right wing government is trying to snatch that away from them. The students do not want a two year probation time:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4826918.stm

And for what comes to americans in Iraq, I guess it’s really not that different from Vietnam. Innocent civilians are probably being tortured, raped and killed even in Iraq:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4827424.stm

and then there is a country producing 24-25% of the world pollution with only 5% of the world population. Can you guess winter who that evil war-mongering country is?

Evil is the word. We spend the daytime figuring out who-next to invade. Can’t figure if its Iran, or North Korea.

Maybe we should go for the oil rich one first?

25% of the pollution could have been averted. Just like the Germans (Except they cheated and used a baseline that included a very polluted east Germany, and imported energy from France’s nukes) we to could have gone to nukes for power generation.

But alas those funny environmentalist groups would rather we spew coal gases out.

It seems that those great humanitarian benefactors – the US Marines – have actually managed to perpetrate an Iraqi version of My Lai:

“The residents said troops entered homes and shot and killed 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.”

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Fatal-Raid.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

If that doesn’t open up, the text is also here:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032106N.shtml

Small children can be dangerous adversaries. They might accidentally bleed on you after you’ve shot them in the head.

Seriously, slaughtering families now is it? I guess you’re right, Kimmo. It’s Vietnam and My Lai all over again.

But alas those funny environmentalist groups would rather we spew coal gases out.

This irrationally dogmatic anti-nuclear stand is the most serious problem of the environmental movement today. When it started, it was actually quite pro-nuclear.

Now, greenhouse gases obviously don’t account for all pollution. Here is a great informational site about pollution in the US, with detailed information about the types of pollutants and the those responsible for the pollution.

Of course, pollution is just a liberal lie and an invention of the MSM.

“Evil is the word. We spend the daytime figuring out who-next to invade. Can’t figure if its Iran, or North Korea.”

Well the road home from Iraq leads through Iran and North Korea.

As it is they moved the US Military away from the DMZ and brought in long range bombers to the Pacific. Hmmm.

Kimmo

You missed the news story from Bagdad. The locals discovered a guy in a market wearing a bomb around his waist. No draggging him off to court, they executed him on the spot.

So sorry to say this is a war. Bad things happen, or did you miss the memo.

Security = “right wing government is trying to snatch that away from them”

Ah yes, the right to keep your job, even if you are not doing it.

Come to America. You can get fired at any age from start to finish. All the employer has to do is give you 2 weeks notice. And thats if he is nice.

Its that easy and yet we don’t riot over some silly security rule. Rather we get out and find a better job.

“Come to America. You can get fired at any age from start to finish. All the employer has to do is give you 2 weeks notice. And thats if he is nice.”

- Virginia is a right to work state. You can be fired at any time with no notice. However, we normally hire temps first when looking for new employees. This way we can find the right person and until we do, the temps are employees of the temp agency and not the company. Now the only people that have been fired have been fired for ’cause.’ My ‘assistant’ (She assisted 4 managers.) in my old position was fired for cause. I had complained that she failed to understand that she was employed to assist me and three others. She was a real pain in the ass. I happen to make a comment one day to the COO who was dealing with a deparmtnetal problem, and he decided to search her desk. In it was a file containing copies of our emails. HR was brought over, she cleaned out her desk and was escorted out.

“Its that easy and yet we don’t riot over some silly security rule. Rather we get out and find a better job.”

- Exactly. It doesn’t hurt knowing that you could be fired. Call it an incentive to do your job. The US would fail to function if companies could not fire employees. Nobody would do any work!

“Virginia is a right to work state. ”

I don’t know if Maryland is a right to work state, and I really don’t care. I do not want any government protection from a bad employer, as I will just fire him first.

I did that twice now in my carrier. One was with a boss who held me back on promotion after promotion. So I went to the next level up and asked for a lateral assignment away. I got it, and a new boss, and soon had the next level raise (with the support of the new boss).

“You missed the news story from Bagdad. The locals discovered a guy in a market wearing a bomb around his waist. — So sorry to say this is a war. Bad things happen, or did you miss the memo.

Oh boy, denial is a powerful force apparently.

What has waging war got to do with slaughtering innocent civilians in your mad rampage across civil areas? Are the americans afraid of the little children and their grandmothers?

“Ah yes, the right to keep your job, even if you are not doing it.”

That’s not the point. They are protesting against arbitraty firings, you know the kind that can be made without a valid reason. Just for the heck of it, so to say. I’m glad we have some protection from the whims of greedy and/or stupid employers here in the nordic countries. That way we can actually count on the fact that we’ll still have our jobs in a couple of months (if we do our jobs well, that is) and maybe plan ahead with some security.

The US would fail to function if companies could not fire employees. Nobody would do any work!

So, Americans are not the happy workers-consumers we have been led to believe, then? They have to be forced to work, constantly monitored, ever living under threat of being fired.

Ever living under the threat of being fired?

Yep, and doing quite well I do believe. No problems getting a job here, whats it like in the EU? Any riots in France?

Security is in the knowledge that you are worth something to the employer, and he will make money by keeping you. Now thats security one can depend on.

“So, Americans are not the happy workers-consumers we have been led to believe, then?”

- 99+% are.

“They have to be forced to work, constantly monitored, ever living under threat of being fired.”

- This is to take care of the

Dear winter,

I can’t believe the way you’re making excuses and defending the atrocities that the american troops have commited (both in Vietnam and in Iraq).

Let me get this straight: Because you’re afraid of being shot by the enemy you walk into the nearest civilian home and blast everyone in the face, just in case that the three-year-old was an evil enemy combatant or perhaps just to vent your frustration and fear. Then you walk out of that home and into the next one and kill everyone there, man woman and child. After that you step to the street and shoot anyone who happens to walk by. And to your opinion this is somehow excusable and understandable?

Right. Don’t come crying and wondering why anti-americanism might be on the rise.

The more likely reason for this kind of behaviour is psychotic arrogance, stupefying ignorance and total disregard for human life and suffering.

And as for what comes to the employment subject, security is in the knowledge that you are worth something, yes, and in the knowledge that your stupid-ass employer can’t juts ditch just in order to get another trainee in for cheaper expences when he should actually make you a regular employee. Or that he can’t sack you just because he doesn’t happen to like your face or because you’re not slaving away and obeying his petty commands like a Pavlov’s dog.

Aboy

If you are sloving away like Pavlov’s dog, its it time to get a new dog? or master? I would.

Second. You have no clue about war. Its ugly and not fair. But in the course of war bad thing happen. The USA does not target kids like you think we do. So just get over it, and quit reading the BBC for your one sided view point.

Third. The war in Iraq is still going on because we are such nice guys. When Sadam was shot at, he executed the entire village and all resistance stopped. Yet I see no complaint from you? Why is that?

*Sigh*

Dear winter,

Are you serious? I seem to have a far superiour understanding of warfare when compared to you. Under the international human rights agreements and the Geneva Convention no war can justify anykind of atrocities targetting innocent civilian population or prisoners of war. No matter how upset or frustrated your soldiers are. This should be clear even to american troops. What the american troops are doing, if they really are reenacting the horrors of My Lai, are actually war crimes.

“When Sadam was shot at, he executed the entire village and all resistance stopped. Yet I see no complaint from you?”

Are you as inane as you seem or are you just pretending? How could you know anything of how I felt about Saddam when he was in power? Of course I abhor the horrendous things that happened under Saddam’s rule, but are you saying that since the americans were able to overthrow Saddam they have the right to do whatever they please in Iraq??

Think again, I implore you. I’m beginning to feel though that you’re not worth the time and effort of trying to explain this.

winter if thats how you truly see and think about this subject and other things.

Then you truly are a moron

A couple of points:

Yes, Saddam was a bloodthirsty tyrant, but the USA had no problem with that when his bloodlust was focused on Iran, and his own national minorities. The Americans turned a blind eye to the gassing of the Kurds, and even to the firing of missiles at a US Navy vessel in the Persian Gulf.

And it really is interesting that the BBC – the state-run broadcaster of Bush’s most loyal ally in the Gulf War – is suddenly seen as the font of misinformation by the neocon crowd.

Not for anything, but Europe was given the opportunity to handle Iran and gee two years later we are again with the Security council trying to figure out what to do…….

Great job Europe.

You state the USA is doing war crimes (Yet in fact we prosocute our war crimes), you march against the USA on every pretext. Yet when Sadam was executing all those people, did we see even a small march in the EU against Sadam?

I think not. You have a zero case.

You all say you disliked Sadam, and yet you supported him (Just look at what the oil for food program produced).

Now do something, like Fred Fry suggested and get out there and protest against Iran.

But no, i really don’t think I will see that. Just more protests against the evil USA.

“…when Sadam (sic.) was executing all thouse people, did we see even a small march in the EU against Sadam?”

Europe has certainly shown inexcusable indifference toward human rights abuses, but the United States is in no position to preach in that regard. When Saddam perpetrated his worst atrocities against Iran and its own people, it was business as usual.

It wasn’t until the Kuwait thing that this great trading partner was suddenly seen as the focus of evil in the world.

The world has now changed after 9/11.

The USA does not care about Human rights anymore, if you all in the EU want that banner, go ahead and take it. You can start with DARFUR. The USA has no plans on preaching anything. Like I said, we just don’t care.

The USA will just take on the truly evil ones, that “we” think need to go down.

“The USA does not care about Human rights anymore”

As if it ever did.

“The USA will just take on the truly evil ones”

No. Bush and his cronies take on the ones which they think they can make the best profit out of. Nothing to do with the targets being “evil” or not.

Aboy

Yes its the OIL again. And right now we are all swimming in it.

Gee, I must send a note to Bush and thank him.

Second. You have no clue about war. Its ugly and not fair. But in the course of war bad thing happen.

Yeah, shit happens. Like on 9/11. I don’t know why these pansy-ass hippies get all worked about things like these. It’s just business as usual.

Freerinin

You callin Aboy a “pansy-ass hippie”? Because he sure fits the bill.

In case you haven’t heard, winter, it’s called “irony”. Although I do understand that it is wasted on the simple people.

Speaking about Vietnam War, I read just a quite interesting american book of that issue. It was written the Arkansas senator J. William Fulbright in the year 1966 and the books name was The Arrogance of Power. – Well, I think that was a wonderfull book and should be read by americans as well as us finns. It’s easy to buy from Amazon.

I just wanted to say WOW! your site is really good and i’m proud to be one of your surfers

Wonderful web site, was very useful. Lovely touch having this guestbook. Thanks