Even though I think Irving isn’t really worth mentioning, it’s good to keep in mind that those kinds of laws exist only in certain European countries – for instance Denmark doesn’t have one. So at least in that sense all religions are treated equal.

Then again, I don’t really see how denying a historical fact is somehow comparable with critique of a religion, or whatever for that matter. Especially since the Holocaust was an attempt to wipe out a whole minority where as those Danish cartoons were, at best, a bad attempt to poke fun at a major religion that happends to suffer from an image problem that is largely caused by some of it’s self-proclaimed members.

As for Irving, even he doesn’t seem to believe his own stories any more:

In his trial, the 67-year-old historian admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews.

He said this was what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.

“I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn’t saying that anymore and I wouldn’t say that now,” Irving told the court.

“The Nazis did murder millions of Jews.”

In that sense he doesn’t seem to qualify for a poster boy for the ultra right wing any more. Jailing him was still a questionable decision as he will probably be seen as a martyr by some, instead of what he really is – a lousy historian who didn’t get his facts straight.

And don’t forget the trial of Roger Garaudy for the same crime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/45888.stm

According to news, he really said it in Austria. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make any sense.

where as those Danish cartoons were, at best, a bad attempt to poke fun at a major religion

So, do you think that labeling Muslims with terrorism (the turban drawing) is just an attempt to poke fun !

Denying Holocaust ==> offends 17 millions of one nation ==> a crime
Insulting Mohammad ==> offends 14000 millions of around 47 nations ==> NOT a crime

Can you explain it to me …

Abu Omar,

what do you think about the commonplace denial or glorification of the Holocaust whereby Nazi Germany exterminated millions of innocent, among them 6 million Jews, in the media in Muslim countries?

Now, I don’t think Holocaust denial should be outlawed. But if you consider poking fun at sacred Islamic symbols distasteful at best, then I think you should – in the very least – condemn the kind of hate mongering so commonplace in Arab press against Jews depicting them as blood-sucking, baby-eating monsters.

So, do you think that labeling Muslims with terrorism (the turban drawing) is just an attempt to poke fun !

Don’t see Muslins that much upset with Bin Landen

“Denying Holocaust ==> offends 17 millions of one nation ==> a crime”

No, he offended the local laws and that’s why is a crime. Sure some austrians might take offence but that is not why he was judged.
Still a stupid law that will make a martyr of him.

I think the bomb-in-the-turban cartoon was meant to imply that prophet Muhammad was a proto-terrorist and a role model for modern day Islamic terrorists.

It is true that Muhammad was no conscientious objector. He and his followers waged aggressive wars against non-believers, enlarging their influence through military conquest. If Muhammad and his followers only waged war defensively, are we to believe that the Islamic empire arose accidently?

Can you explain it to me …

It’s double standards from Western governments.

Anonymous:

then I think you should – in the very least – condemn the kind of hate mongering so commonplace in Arab press against Jews depicting them as blood-sucking, baby-eating monsters.

Muslims coexisted with Jews since early days of Islam. There are so many Jews in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Morocco, Egypt and many other Arab countries.
I totally condemn any hatred incitement against Jews and Christians. BUT at the same time, I do believe that “Zionists in Palestine” and “American Army in Iraq” are blood-suckers and baby-eaters.

Our issue (as Arabs) is not with Jews or Christians, it is with those who invaded our countries. (I am a Palestinian by the way)

Quran says the following about the Jews and Christians ( People of the Book )

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(6:8) Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(3:64) Say: “O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.” If then they turn back, say ye: “Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah’s Will).
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(3:113) Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(3:199) And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(29:46) And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
So, how on earth do you thinks that Muslims look at Jews as blood-sucking, baby-eating monsters because of their religion?
Please read the above quotes from Quran carefully.
Here is a link if you want to search in Quran:
http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/

So, do you think that labeling Muslims with terrorism (the turban drawing) is just an attempt to poke fun !

Oh please, I’m not going to explain this again. Go and read my earlier comments if you want to get a picture of what I think. (If you really care that is, as judging by some of your earlier posts, it seems that you are just one of those types who likes to blame the U.S. etc. for everything instead of trying to look at things on a more objective issue to issue basis. Or am I perhaps wrong?)

Denying Holocaust ==> offends 17 millions of one nation ==> a crime
Insulting Mohammad ==> offends 14000 millions of around 47 nations ==> NOT a crime

Can you explain it to me …

The difference is that the Holocast, a historical fact, was an attempt to destroy a whole group of people by gathering them to camps and ultimately killing them. Claiming that it never happened is simply stupid and has nothing to do with, let’s say, critisising Israeli politics or something like that.

The Mohammad cartoons on the other hand were, well, insulting cartoons. They were very much unnecessary and one could argue that they represent bad taste, but getting upset is still not the same as trying to deny something that really happened.

I would argue that labeling all Muslims as terrorists is probably as stupid as denying actual events of history, but other than that I don’t really see how these two issues could be compared. It’s not about how many millions are on each side, it’s more a question of sanity and humanity as you have to agree that killing is worse than offending, don’t you?

I understand the historical aspects of why some countries like Austria or Germany have fealt in necessary to make laws that strongly denounce even the smallest bits of extremism of this nature. However, extremism doesn’t go away by simply banning certain words. In fact those kinds of laws are probably more counter-productive in today’s world, as various extremist groups use them as “proof” of their dumb conspiracy theories, and also call people that were jailed because of them as martyrs.

So in that sense I don’t think that we should have those kinds of laws that limit the freedom of expression. In general it’s often better to let everyone speak as that way it’s a lot easier to know who really deserves our attention and who is simply an loud mouthed idiot.

“offends 14000 millions”

The earth seems to be really over-crowded!

I agree that the law in Austria is stupid. However, it is worth remembering that Irving was found in a British court to have denied the Holocaust by deception. He was an accredited academic, who used his professional position to publish work that was deliberately shoddy in order to further anti-semitism (so the court found).

That is different to drawing pictures, the point of which is open to debate. Certainly they were not deliberately revising history to mislead the Danish public.

And Abu Omar, I’d love to know in which countries the 14 billion muslims live in a world with a population of about 6.2 billion people.

Anonymous:

It is true that Muhammad was no conscientious objector. He and his followers waged aggressive wars against non-believers, enlarging their influence through military conquest. If Muhammad and his followers only waged war defensively, are we to believe that the Islamic empire arose accidently?

What do you think of the Mongols Conquest of the world in thirteenth century? They invaded almost the whole world (see the maps in Wikipedia).
What did they left behind them?
Do you really compare the “Islamic conquest” with the “Mongols conquest” ….

Islam did not spread by war. In Quran it is stated very clearly that (2:256) Let there be no compulsion in religion

Most of today’s Muslim countries turned to Islam without any bit of blood. There are many example; to name a few: Indonesia -the biggest Islamic country- and most of the southern countries in Africa.

The wars waged between Muslims and others were merely a war between “A nation” with another “nation”. As it was between France and Briton for instance.

What I want to say, is that offensive and defensive wars are politics and has nothing to do with the religion.
I again refer you to read verse 2:256 of Quran (quoted above)

Abu Omar is right. Whereas it is true that many muslim nations have been rather warlike, so were their predecessors in these regions. Arabs, for one, before Islam, were nomadic people who fought amongst themselves almost continuously. And Persians weren’t too peaceful either. I don’t really think religion has all that much to do with anything here.

I’d love to know in which countries the 14 billion muslims live in a world with a population of about 6.2 billion people.

Oopss 8-0
I’m so sorry, I was a typing mistake. I meant 1.4 billion.
Or it might be some kind of wishful thinking

What do you think of the Mongols Conquest of the world in thirteenth century? They invaded almost the whole world (see the maps in Wikipedia). What did they left behind them? Do you really compare the “Islamic conquest” with the “Mongols conquest” ….

The Mongol conquest was, of course, a huge disaster for almost the entire Eurasia (and Egypt). I admit that I have a cruel streak (quite well under control) and having fantasized about burning and crushing the Mongols to death (the warriors, not young children yet to be trained as murderers), because I consider them subhuman scum because of their extraordinary cruelty and contempt for all others.

The Islamic military conquest was a large scale endeavor, but not quite as succesful as the Mongol one.

Islam did not spread by war.

Not true. It is, true, however, that Islam spread also through voluntary conversions.

In Quran it is stated very clearly that (2:256) Let there be no
compulsion in religion

Didn’t Muhammad say this before he had conquered Mecca? I’ve read that there were two distinct periods in Muhammad’s religious activity. The Medina period during which he was exiled from his birth place Mecca, persecuted because of his religion. Muhammad also spent time in Ethiopia during the persecution. During this time he had good relations with Jews and Christians. After he had gained strength, he and his followers used military force to conquer Mecca.

Most of today’s Muslim countries turned to Islam without any bit of blood. There are many example; to name a few: Indonesia -the biggest Islamic country- and most of the southern countries in Africa.

Sure, lot’s of people converted to Islam without any blood. I never claimed Islam spread only through violence.

The wars waged between Muslims and others were merely a war between “A nation” with another “nation”. As it was between France and Briton for instance.

What I want to say, is that offensive and defensive wars are politics and has nothing to do with the religion.

I believe that was the case when wars were waged between two Islamic “nations” or ethnic groups without theological differences. However, the 1300 year old Sunni vs. Shia schism has everything to do with religion.

off the topic

be sure to watch todays game, Finland plays against usa in a semifinal match

Gosh, are we at the semis already? I thought it was quarter-final tonight!

I am sick of Muslims trying to cover their collective arses with more verses from the Quran.

What their co-religionists have done thorought the ME speaks louder than any ‘one’ or group of religious verses. What they are tought in their religious schools and Mosques is what is important….

After a few pictures and 30 dead 3 embassies burnt and death threats issued, I think that the Islamic world has more to answer for than the Jyllands-Posten.

When Mecca is OFF LIMITS to the infidel, though Rome and Jerusalem is open to non-believers, also puts a dagger into the myth of Islamic tolerance to other religions.

Just how many more verses does Abu Omar wish to dig up for us?

Nice that people are missing the point.

It’s double standards from Western governments.

Yep.

This is a sad time for freedom of speech and this is outrageous that this man was jailed for saying the Holocaust never occurred. Austria is supposed to be a “Western Democracy” with the freedom of speech and that means Irving should be allowed to say whatever he wants. Anyone who denies something like the Holocaust, considering all the evidence supporting it, is a fucking idiot. Irving is a fucking idiot. However, it’s his right to say it. That’s the beauty of freedom of speech. This shit stinks and it’s a real double standard. When muslims point this case out in comparison to the cartoon fiasco, they will be in the right.

KGS59

I don’t see anything wrong for Mecca being off-limits for non-muslims. Non-hindus are not allowed into hindu temples (at least some of them), does that make hindus less tolerant to other religions?

How I see it is that each religion has their own concept of what is sacred and how to maintain the “purity” or “sacredness” of these sacred things or places. So, if muslims regard Mecca as a place that only muslims should go, we should let them.

I feel this cartoon thing has gotten out of hand. Muslims are taught certain things and then they display the opposite by rioting. That sends a mixed message to the world. Do Mulsims want to be seen as aggressors? The massive rioting seems to indicate that they do. Freedom of expression is one thing. Using that power in the wrong way is something else. We all live on this planet together. The newspaper that published the cartoon issued an apology. What more do Muslims want? Hasn’t this dragged on long enough?

“How I see it is that each religion has their own concept of what is sacred and how to maintain the “purity” or “sacredness” of these sacred things or places. So, if muslims regard Mecca as a place that only muslims should go, we should let them.”

So how about throwing the same idea for Jerusalem? Let’s say that the holy city is off-limits for anyone who isn’t a jew or a christian. I can already see the flags burning and ignorant mobs destroying everything they can..

Anyways, I can’t understand the bitching and moaning about the stupid cartoons, when opening a bhagavadgita or a bible in some of the ME countries gets your ass kicked and house burned before you can say “freedom of religion”. Muslims demand “respect” while they don’t know the word in their theocratic societies. Let’s see how long I stay alive if I go and burn a saudi flag and wave around a bible in Saudi-Arabia or Iran, five minutes maybe? We, the infidels, suffer from our civilized ways and don’t understand that if this “respect” marches over our freedom it will most definately NOT stop there. “If you tolerate this, your children will be next”

And anyway, this meddling of ME in the internal affairs of Denmark is just so Soviet Union.

Anonymous:

Didn’t Muhammad say this before he had conquered Mecca?
- – - – -
After he had gained strength, he and his followers used military force to conquer Mecca.

Dear Anonymous,
I expected you to bring any war related issue except this one!
You seem to have read something about Mohammad’s life, but you might forget that signed a treaty with Meccan’s in year 628 for ten years. After two years, Meccan’s breached the treaty, and upon that Mohammad decided to conquest Mecca.
And don’t forget that Mohammad was expelled from Mecca after being persecuted for 13 years. Nevertheless, the conquest of Mecca was considered as one the most peaceful conquests in history where no drop of blood was shed.
At that time, Muslims were 10,000 and in the next year 631 they became 100,000 without any bloodshed.
Please, revise your readings about Mohammad’s life if you want to be subjective.
This is about Mecca conquest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad#The_conquest_of_Mecca
And this about the treaty terms signed by Mohammad and Meccans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyya

I hope that you will spend some time reading this short Wiki article about “Mohammad as a warrior”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_as_a_warrior

Muhammad also spent time in Ethiopia during the persecution.

To be accurate, some of Mohammad’s followers (~ 170) migrated to Ethiopia, but not Mohammad himself. He asked his followers to go to the Christian King “Najashi” and described as a Just King.
By the way, did you asked yourself why Mohammad selected the Christian King of Ethiopia specifically?

However, the 1300 year old Sunni vs. Shia schism has everything to do with religion.
There has never been any wars between Sunnis and Shias !
The difference between them is that Shia considers the Mohammad’s family members (especially his cousin Ali) have the right to rule the Islamic state. Sunnis have different opinion about this.
All in all, the schism between Sunnis and Shias are related to very minor details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia

The Islamic military conquest was a large scale endeavor, but not quite as successful as the Mongol one.

So, how do you measure the success ?
There is no comparison between Muslims and Mongols.
Mongols left behind them massacres, and blood
Muslims left behind them a religion which still exist to these days from far China to South Africa.

And about those quaran verses..

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

Jizya is a special tax for infidels, because of their wrong religion. Submissing and paying special religion taxes, sounds pretty libertarian to me. So much for the respect for other religions in quaran.

Hi DUH,

There is a major difference between the center of the Islamic faith, Mecca, being off limits to non-believers, and the differing local rules for various Hindu Temples scattered around the world.

That the epic center of the Islamic religion is off limits to everyone else, while other epic centers for world religions do not, speaks volumes of the intolerance of Islam. There is no excuse for it.

That Mohamed chose to do so, reflects the time of that age, but as other religions have made the jump into the 21 century, Islam remains in the chains of the time period it was born in. Apologizing for such intolerance is ridiculas.

SOIA:

So how about throwing the same idea for Jerusalem? Let’s say that the holy city is off-limits for anyone who isn’t a jew or a christian. I can already see the flags burning and ignorant mobs destroying everything they can.

Remember that Jerusalem has been under the Islamic rule from 638 to the Israeli occupation in 1967.
During the Islamic control of the holy city, no Jews nor Christians have been persecuted. Moreover, they have had their churches and temples and they were respected highly.
Christians supported Saladin in his fight against the crusaders.

That is to say that Islam coexisted very peacefully with Jews and Christians in the holey city of Jerusalem, despite the fact that Muslims considers Jerusalem as the third holy city after Mecca and Medina.
Mecca is a special case, where infidels are not allowed to enter.

when opening a bhagavadgita or a bible in some of the ME countries gets your ass kicked and house burned before you can say “freedom of religion”

Who taught you this ?
As I said previously, all Christian holy places, churches and symbols were maintained by Christian themselves during the 1300 years of Islamic rule.
So why do think that opening a bhagavadgita or a bible will cause you a problem in ME.
Don’t you know that there so many Jews are still living in Iran, Syria, Irqa, Egypt, Morocco, and many other ME countries?
Don’t you know that churches are at large in almost all ME countries?

SOIA:

Jizya is a special tax for infidels, because of their wrong religion. Submissing and paying special religion taxes, sounds pretty libertarian to me. So much for the respect for other religions in quaran.

This what wikipedia says about Jizya:
————————–
Jizya was applied to every free adult male member of the People of the Book, and/or non-Muslim living in lands under Muslim rule. There was no amount permanently fixed for it, though the payment usually depended on wealth: the Kitab al-Kharaj of Abu Yusuf sets the amounts at 48 dirhams for the richest (e.g. moneychangers), 24 for those of moderate wealth, and 12 for craftsmen and manual laborers. Females, children, the poor, and hermits were exempt from it. The disabled and elderly were exempt unless they were independently wealthy , as were mendicant monks—those living in productive monasteries had to pay. Historically Muslim rulers also attempted to collect jizya from Hindus, Sikhs and Zoroastrians under their rule. The collection of the tax was often the duty of the elders of those communities.

In return, those who paid the jizya were not required to serve in the military and were considered under the protection of the Muslim state , with certain rights and responsibilities. Non-Muslims were also exempt from zakat, or mandatory charity imposed on Muslims. In addition, if a non-Muslim chose to serve in the army, he would be exempt from the jizya . If he refused to pay the jizya, he might be imprisoned, as Abu Yusuf recommended.
————————–

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

You have to know the context of the text before you judge it. That verse is talking about the “Battle of Tabouk”. Here is more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tabuk

Not to repeat myself again, I refer you to page in this blog where the same issue were clarified: (read comment #126)
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/02/01/drawing-mohammed/#comments

KGS59 :

That Mohamed chose to do so

Mohammad did not chose to let Mecca off-limit to infidels. That was decreed by ALLAH in verse 9:28 of Quran.

Apologizing for such intolerance is ridiculas.

There is no apology over this. Did you hear it from anybody?
Mecca is a holey city and it was decreed by ALLAH that is shall remain sacred. That is it.

However, any non-Muslim can enter any other mosque.

“Don’t you know that there so many Jews are still living in Iran, Syria, Irqa, Egypt, Morocco, and many other ME countries?
Don’t you know that churches are at large in almost all ME countries?”

Yes, probably still living, but not very equal when compared to the muslim citizens.

I know that in Iran, a christian cannot get high positions in the government or the army. I know that if you convert to christianity from islam in Iran, you’ll have to run and hide from people trying to stone you to death (I’ve talked to this person myself) and that your family is forced to forsake you. I know that diyeh of a non-muslim is fraction of a muslim in Iran. And that’s just Iran. You really call this fair?

Christians are held and put to jail on regular basis in Saudi-arabia, their belongings are searched and bibles destroyed. These are the people who demand “respect”. Unbelievable.

Hindus suffer alike for example in Pakistan, also buddhists are persecuted.

“As I said previously, all Christian holy places, churches and symbols were maintained by Christian themselves during the 1300 years of Islamic rule. So why do think that opening a bhagavadgita or a bible will cause you a problem in ME.”

Don’t you see the controversy? Christian churches were burned just a couple of weeks ago, in Pakistan and in Nigeria. In the past, hmm.. how about Hagia Sofia? I’m sure muslims would be eager to right the wrongs and hand it right back to the church. And you know, just “maintaining” is not the same as being free. Religion in muslim countries is controlled by the government, you can’t build/start churches without a permission and you can’t preach christianity/whatever in public places. You want another example? Take a look at Egypt and the kopti-christians there, mosques don’t need permissions, but you can’t even REPAIR a church without a “yes” from the government.

sorry, that last post was not from Markku but from SOIA. Phil, your cookie/whatnot -system is messed up, because the “Name” textfield offers some random usernames atleast for me, that’s why the mix up happened. Sorry Markku!

Hey Abu,
I sure as hell did hear someone apologize for the Islamic intolerance of not allowing the ‘infidel’ into Mecca. In DUH’s post he doesn’t see anything wrong in not allowing a Jew or Christian in Mecca.

That is nothing more than apologizing for an intolerance not seen by anyother major religion in the world. I personally find offensive the ”for Muslims only” roads in Saudi-Arabia, as well as the confiscation of personal religious artifacts at the Saudi ports of entry as well.

KGS59 :

After a few pictures and 30 dead 3 embassies burnt and death threats issued, I think that the Islamic world has more to answer for than the Jyllands-Posten.

Demonstrations and condemnations spread around the whole world over the insult of Mohammad (from Pakistan to Venezuela, and from Finland to South Africa).
The burning of embassies has nothing to do with Islamic teachings nor with Muslims.
Syria and Lebanon (where embassies burned) have a very complicated political problems with the west. Nothing to do with Islam nor Muslims.

Hey Abu,

Just ”how many” Jews are left in Iraq ? Here’s a time line from media reports:

“Jews remained under constant surveillance by the Iraqi government. Max Sawadayee, in “All Waiting to be Hanged” writes a testimony of an Iraqi Jew (who later escaped): “The dehumanization of the Jewish personality resulting from continuous humiliation and torment…have dragged us down to the lowest level of our physical and mental faculties, and deprived us of the power to recover.

In response to international pressure, the Baghdad government quietly allowed most of the remaining Jews to emigrate in the early 1970′s, even while leaving other restrictions in force. Most of Iraq’s remaining Jews are now too old to leave. They have been pressured by the government to turn over title, without compensation, to more than $200 million worth of Jewish community property. (New York Times, February 18, 1973).”

“Only one synagogue continues to function in Iraq, “a crumbling buff-colored building tucked away in an alleyway” in Baghdad. According to the synagogue’s administrator, “there are few children to be bar-mitzvahed, or couples to be married. Jews can practice their religion but are not allowed to hold jobs in state enterprises or join the army.” (New York Times Magazine, February 3, 1985)”.

” Baghdad was one-fifth Jewish and other communities had first been established 2,500 years ago. Today, approximately 61 Jews are left in Baghdad and another 200 or so are in Kurdish areas in the north. Only one synagogue remains in Bataween, – once Baghdad’s main Jewish neighborhood.- The rabbi died in 1996 and none of the remaining Jews can perform the liturgy and only a couple know Hebrew. (Associated Press, March 28, 1998)”

Truth be known, the Islamic ME, where Jews had lived for centuries were foribly emptied, with an ethnic cleansing of a people who have lived in the region for ages……..sadly these refugees rarely get a hearing, or a UN refugee organization of their very own like the Palistinians (UNWRA), while the rest of the world has to use just one (UNHRC).

Great huh?

Sorry Abu, but your ”nothing to do with Arabs or Muslims” mantra is a hollow form of denial.

It has everything to do with Islam, Muslims and the intolerance preached in thier Mosques and religious schools. The fact that the Danish Imams peddeled their wares around the world in hoped of inciting the rest of the world’s Muslims to their cause, makes them an accomplice to the mayhem and murder that followed.

Seeing that it only took a bit of encouragment to get the responses witnessed by the world, proves that the intolerance is tought though you can quote a ‘umpteenth’ number of verses from a book that speak otherwise. Its what’s tought in the schools and Mosques what is important.

The rage in the streets was mindless idiocy, and apologizing for it as stupid as the original outrage over a few cartoons of man.

Talk about idolatry, the Islamic world has been caught red handed in worshiping a man, giving him a god-like status, and deem his image to be more important than life itself. Get real, and get reformed.

SOIA: (or Markku)

Yes, probably still living, but not very equal when compared to the muslim citizens.

No, they are equal and even have more privileges as a minority.
In my country (Jordan) they have a predefined seats in the parliament. The same applies in other ME countries.

Christians are held and put to jail on regular basis in Saudi-arabia, their belongings are searched and bibles destroyed. These are the people who demand “respect”.

That might sound right. BUT, it has nothing to do with Islam ! It is a government policy.
You don’t find this kind treatment in other Muslim countries. So it depends on the local legislations of each country.

Don’t you see the controversy? Christian churches were burned just a couple of weeks ago, in Pakistan and in Nigeria.

Did you hear any support for that by any credible Muslim scholar? Or even by any Muslim at all?
These are just a rioting acts.
All Muslims condemns this kind of attacks against churches. Those who attack temples and churches are sinners and should be punished under the Islamic law.

It was said clearly in Quran (6:108) that:
And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did.

And Mohammed said in one Hadith that “whoever insults or annoy the people of book, then he insulted and annoyed me personally”. So, Mohammad considers any attack against Christians and Jews as an attack against him personally.

how about Hagia Sofia?

I can not stomach this easily, and I think that it was a big mistake.
So, don’t consider this case to be the model of how Muslims look at other’s holey places.
Along the whole Islamic history, no churches were converted to mosques by force except Hagia Sofia.
For example, when the Taliban government in Afghanistan demolished Phuda temples, all Muslim scholars condemned that. So, those who demolish other’s holey places are condemned and punished by Islam.

And you know, just “maintaining” is not the same as being free. Religion in muslim countries is controlled by the government, you can’t build/start churches without a permission and you can’t preach christianity/whatever in public places.

Maybe I used wrong word of “maintaining”. In fact, Christians have had complete freedom in the Islamic state.
For example, until these days, Christians have their own juridical system regarding the marriages, inheritance, and other personal issues. This right was granted to them since the very early days of Islam.

Take a look at Egypt and the kopti-christians there, mosques don’t need permissions, but you can’t even REPAIR a church without a “yes” from the government.

Do you consider Finland as a country of freedom?
Then why Muslims are not allowed to build mosques (as an independent building) ?
There are many mosques in Sweden. In Finland it is firmly prohibited?
Can you explain why?

=> I guess that your answer to my above question will indeed be the same answer for your questions.

KGS59:

Just ‘’how many’’ Jews are left in Iraq ? Here’s a time line from media reports:

Did I say that Jews are respected under the Bathist law?
Simply Jews were persecuted in Iraq because of the Bathist government. Nothing to do with Islam.

Why don’t ask yourself this question:
What made the Jews and Christians to stay in Islamic countries under Islamic rule for 1300 years?

KGS59:

The fact that the Danish Imams peddled their wares around the world in hoped of inciting the rest of the world’s Muslims to their cause, makes them an accomplice to the mayhem and murder that followed.

Oh, yes I see. The Danish cartoonists have nothing to do with this.

I wonder if you followed the sequence of events accurately:
- Publication of the drawings (30.9)
- The Islamic Society in Denmark demands that Jyllands-Posten apologise to all Muslims and withdraw the cartoons. (9.10)
- 3,500 people stage a peaceful demonstration outside the Copenhagen office of Jyllands-Posten. (14.9)
- Meeting with Islamic Ambassadors refused by Danish Prime Minister (19.10)

Read the rest of the timeline yourself from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

And at the end you come to say that The fact that the Danish Imams peddled their wares ….
What a logic!

Seeing that it only took a bit of encouragment to get the responses witnessed by the world, proves that the intolerance is tought
Revise the timeline pleeeeeez !

“Do you consider Finland as a country of freedom?
Then why Muslims are not allowed to build mosques (as an independent building)? There are many mosques in Sweden. In Finland it is firmly prohibited? Can you explain why?

=> I guess that your answer to my above question will indeed be the same answer for your questions.”

If the case is so, that mosques cannot be build just because they’re mosques, it is an absolute outrage. But I do not believe it is so. If you mean that you cannot build a big arabic mosque in the centre of Helsinki by Saudi money, then you might be just right. But on the other hand, you can’t build anything in the centre of the city if it doesn’t fit the view and go through with the city board. As far as I know, there are mosques in Finland and I don’t know any reason which stops them to be started up and build.

(Some talk about saudi persecutions)

“That might sound right. BUT, it has nothing to do with Islam ! It is a government policy.”

So it’s a ‘government policy’ to persecute non-muslims? Of course it is has everything to do with islam. Islam is the very reason these persecutions happen, Saudi scholars (who are influencal and heard throughout the world in the muslim community) agree with these actions and have done nothing to prevent it, even though they easily could. And the same people cry out for respect when someone draws a stupid cartoon.

You claim islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. So why all the trouble? Why are people of different religions persecuted and put down in many many muslim countries? Do you have a theory? All that I can see connecting these countries (from ME to Africa and Asia) and people is the religion.

BTW. the cartoons were published in a big newspaper in EGYPT last october, why aren’t there any egypt boycotts going on and egypt flags burned? Maybe because it’s a muslim country.. talking about double standards.

SOIA:

I know that in Iran, a christian cannot get high positions in the government or the army.

Once upon a time, I was looking for a PhD research project in one of the “Helsinki University of Technology” labs.
I found one intersting adv about a military related research.
When I checked the requirements, the most important one was:
“Applicant must be a native-born Finn – both father and mother – ”

More about democratic Finland:
Chapter 5, sec. 54 of the Finnish constitution says that “The President shall be a native-born Finnish citizen”
So, even if I have the citizinship, I can not be a president.

Q.E.D

SOIA:

Saudi scholars (who are influencal and heard throughout the world in the muslim community) agree with these actions and have done nothing to prevent it

They also prevent the women from driving cars
And they persecute the Shia Muslims.
And they persecute the Sofi Muslims.
And …
So what?
Who said the “Islam = Saudi Arabia” ???

The Christian Europe invaded Jerusalem and committed huge massacres.
G. W. Bush talked about the “new Crusades”.
The Christian Germany persecuted Jews and Roma.
And …
Does that have anything to do with Christianity?

To put is simple:
Persons are judged by the concepts and not visa versa
I mean that “Muslims and their actions must be judged by Islam” and NOT as you trying to say “Islam is judged by Muslims”!

Quran is the Islamic constitution, and every action done by a Muslim should be judged by that constitution

SOIA:

You claim islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. So why all the trouble? Why are people of different religions persecuted and put down in many many muslim countries?

To conclude your point, can you please give a concrete examples of such persecution?
You made the claim and you shall bring some stories.
I am waiting …

Misconceptions about Islam:
http://www.muslim-answers.org/Introducing-Islam/miscons.htm

Read this paragraph:

Misconception #6: Islam was spread by the sword

————-
Many non-Muslims, when they think about Islam, picture religious fanatics on camels with a sword in one hand and a Qur’an in the other. This myth, which was made popular in Europe during the Crusades, is totally baseless. First of all, the Holy Qur’an clearly says “Let there be no compulsion in religion”. In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person’s faith must be pure and sincere, so it is certainly not something that can be forced on someone. In debunking the myth that Islam was “spread by the sword”, the (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O’ Leary wrote: “History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted.” (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8.). It should also be known that Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations. If Islam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islamic Empire? Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realize that they were far too few to force people to be members of a religion against their will. Additionally, the great empire and civilization established by the Muslims had great staying power — its citizens were proud to be part of it. The spread of Islam stands in contrast to the actions of the followers of Christianity, who since the time of the Emperor Constantine have made liberal use of the sword – often basing their conduct on Biblical verses. This was especially true of the colonization of South America and Africa, where native peoples were systematically wiped-out or forced to convert. It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it. This is a unique occurrence in history – the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered! Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims! Ask any of the over one billion Muslims alive in the world today whether they were forced! The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia — and there were never any battles fought there! So where was the sword? How could someone be forced to adhere to a spiritually rewarding and demanding religion like Islam?
————-

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/saudioppression.html

I stumbled upon this website. Is this accurate and up to date?

SOIA:

If the case is so, that mosques cannot be build just because they’re mosques, it is an absolute outrage. But I do not believe it is so.
You better believe it, because it is a truth.

If you mean that you cannot build a big Arabic mosque in the centre of Helsinki by Saudi money, then you might be just right. But on the other hand, you can’t build anything in the centre of the city if it doesn’t fit the view and go through with the city board.

What about your neighboring Stockholm?
There is one big mosque with dome and minaret, and it fits without any problem in Stockholm’s landscape!

BTW, mosques do look like any church from outside (with cross replaced by crescent), so there is no reason to prevent Muslims from building their own mosques.

One more thing;
The Christianity is recognized religion in most of Arab countries, where Christians have a quota in the parlaminate.
In Lebanon, the president must be Christian.
In Egypt, the minister of finance is “Youssef Boutros Ghali” is Christian, and the former UN secretary “Boutros Ghali” was the Minster of foreign affairs.
In Jordan, the deputy prime minister is a Christian. If I recall well, there are 3 Christian ministers in Jordanian cabinet right now.
In Palestine, one of the top officials “Abu Rudayna” -the president trustee- is a Christian as well.
BTW, do you that Hamas (the Palestinian Islamic party) had a couple of Christians in its candidates list in Gaza? And do you know that they supported 4 other Christians to win the latest Palestinian elections.

On the other hand,
Islam is not recognized as a religion in Finland?
The only UE country that recognizes Islam as a religion is Austria.
What about you Finland? Aren’t your democratic values qualify you to consider Islam as a religion.

On the other hand,
Islam is not recognized as a religion in Finland?
The only UE country that recognizes Islam as a religion is Austria.
What about you Finland? Aren’t your democratic values qualify you to consider Islam as a religion.

Not recognized as a religion in Finland?!

I’m quite sure that the Finnish Muslims have a registered religious community, if not several (I think the old Tartar community have their own congregation), just like all the others. Unless Muslims want a position as a state church here, which would frankly be absurd, I really don’t know what you’re talking about.

Lets see how much ‘spin’ Abu Omar puts on this one.

http://www.jcpa.org/christian-persecution.htm

Here is another for Abu:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19453

Abu Omar,

You simply talk nosense. Below you can see a link to the Population Register Centre (unfortunately this is in not available in English):

http://www.vrk.fi/vrk/files.nsf/files/9F361FCA95908895C2256FE80043312C/$file/rek.uskonnolliset+yhdk++31.12.2004.htm

This shows you that as of Dec 31, 2004, there were 15 (FIFTEEN!) officially registered Islamic congregations in Finland. Their memberships are generally very small, which means that most Muslims are not members there. Of these the Islam-seurakunta of the Tatars was established decades ago and was the first ever Islamic congregation recognized by a Western European state. And they do have mosques, not perhaps all of them, and Helsinki has several mosques itself. None are in buildings which only have this mosque but it doesn’t matter, the point is that there are mosques, so what’s the problem? And in my opinion, if you have the money and the building fits the surroundings, you should be able to build yet another one as you wish.

As for the naturalization thing, I don’t know of any country where you can become head of state with being a citizen by birth. Can you name an Islamic country where that would be possible? What about those Islamic countries – as far as I know, at least Saudi Arabia and the supposedly liberal UAE – which practically don’t give citizenship to immigrants even if they’ve been living there for ages? And which don’t anyway give citizenship to people who are not Muslims??? What would you say if Finnish citizenship was only granted to Christians? I would find that horrible.

As for mosques, in many Islamic countries, even Iran and Pakistan, non-Moslems can often/usually/generally visit them. However, for example every single mosque in Saudi Arabia is strictly off-limits to non-Moslems, and in such countries as the UAE and others in the Gulf, there’s usually one showcase mosque per country where infidels can visit during special opening hours.

In comparison, I don’t know of any single Christian church in Finland which which denies entry to non-Christians.

I think the idea that the head of state must be citizen by birth is stupid. America has this since they were afraid of the British when they achieved their independence and Finland has this because of the fear for Russians. In today’s world I think many Americans would welcome the candidacy of someone like Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (born in Austria) or Gov. Jennifer Granholm (born in Canada) who are currently ineligible. In Finland, say, MP Ben Zyskowicz is ineligible even though he’s lived in this country since he was a small child. As far as Islamic countries go, wasn’t the former PA President Arafat born in Egypt? Previous Israeli heads of state have also of course been born outside of Palestine/Israel.

Many monarchies have chosen a king from the outside when there has been a change of royal family. Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte, who became the King of Sweden in early 19th Century, was born in France and the current Norwegian royal family descends from the Prince of Denmark who was chosen to be King of Norway in 1905 at independence.

“What about your neighboring Stockholm?
There is one big mosque with dome and minaret, and it fits without any problem in Stockholm’s landscape!

BTW, mosques do look like any church from outside (with cross replaced by crescent), so there is no reason to prevent Muslims from building their own mosques.”

Well that’s an architechtural issue, not religious. If the swedes like to have more buildings with different styles, that’s fine, but Helsinki is quite strict with the Jugend spirit in the very core of the city. I don’t believe there are any new churches in the centre of helsinki either, temppeliaukion kirkko is probably the newest and it’s underground. And what’s the deal? I walk past two mosques on my way to work every morning.

“If the case is so, that mosques cannot be build just because they’re mosques, it is an absolute outrage. But I do not believe it is so.

You better believe it, because it is a truth.”

Please do give some proof for this claim, because legally it is not so. So prove it or it’s BS. Just because a mosque didn’t get a build permit SOMEWHERE it doesn’t mean that you “can’t” build a mosque at all. Of course you can, buy a spot of land with a building permit and start digging.

“On the other hand, Islam is not recognized as a religion in Finland? The only UE country that recognizes Islam as a religion is Austria.”

The best joke today. There’s probably not a single country in EU which does not recognize islam as a religion. Someone has told you an anti-european lie, perhaps it was the same imam who traveled around ME showing those two disgusting pictures which were not part of the original cartoon set of Jyllands Posten?

“What about you Finland? Aren’t your democratic values qualify you to consider Islam as a religion.”

You obviously have no clue of what you’re talking about. Islam is considered as fullproof religion as any other religious group. Actually there has been a registered muslim congregation in finland ever since the 1920′s. The first muslims in Finland were Tatars and many school classes visit a mosque as a part of their religion course. How many qua’ran school classes in Saudi-Arabia or Jordania visit christian churches as a part of their curriculum?

Here’s a list of registered muslim congregations in Finland:

* Al-Iman mosque, Helsinki
* Islam ja Rakkaus Yhdyskunta, Helsinki & Lahti
* Musliminaisten unioni
* Resalat Islamilainen Yhdyskunta (Suomen Ähl-e Beit) / Fatemeh Zahra Islamilainen kulttuurikeskus, Helsinki
* Suomen Islamilainen Yhdyskunta, Helsinki
* Tampereen Islamin yhdyskunta, Tampere

Anyways, this was not about Finland (which gives muslims as much rights as to any other religious group), this was about the fact that muslim countries do not themselves respect other religions and still demand “respect” in return from the west. If islam – the religion – respects other religions, then that’s great! But not a single country that claims to be islamic respects the freedom of faith and that’s a serious problem.

“To conclude your point, can you please give a concrete examples of such persecution?
You made the claim and you shall bring some stories.
I am waiting …”

Here you go, took about two minutes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/589977.stm

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18026722-23109,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175385,00.html

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06376353.htm

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13899.htm

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/14012.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4683894.stm

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE310052000

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE120091997

Anonymous:

I’m quite sure that the Finnish Muslims have a registered religious community

NO. Muslims are not recognized as a religious community , they are recognized as a cult or group.

Unless Muslims want a position as a state church here, which would frankly be absurd

Yes, exactly. And why do you think that it is absurd!!
It is already done in Austria.

I really don’t know what you’re talking about.

To give you some examples;
- There is no Islamic cemetery (graveyard) in Finland.
- Circumcision is not allowed by law in Finland, while it is allowed in Sweden. That’s why many Muslims in Finland circumcise their baby boys in Sweden or in their home countries.
- There is no way to have an official Islamic school administrated by the Finnish authorities. Muslims do have such schools in some EU countries, such as Sweden, Belgium, UK, France, etc.
- Mosques are not supported by the state, and are not recognized as a “worshiping place”
- Donations made by Muslims to mosques are not deductible from their tax

To put it simple; Islam should be treated as Christianity in Finland. Same rights and same obligations.
Austria is only EU to do this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Austria

None are in buildings which only have this mosque but it doesn’t matter, the point is that there are mosques, so what’s the problem?

No it does matter!
Why Muslims in Sweden do have their mosques as a building?

What about those Islamic countries – as far as I know, at least Saudi Arabia and the supposedly liberal UAE – which practically don’t give citizenship to immigrants even if they’ve been living there for ages? And which don’t anyway give citizenship to people who are not Muslims??? What would you say if Finnish citizenship was only granted to Christians? I would find that horrible.

Yes, I agree with you. BUT those countries are not parading their neutrality and democracy as EU countries do.

Getting back to Omar:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48916
Victims 1st were asked if they believed in Christ, infant, teen among dead

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010337.php
Muslim rioters in Nigeria have burned down 30 churches, and that in all 18 people have been murdered, “most of them Christians,” and that “the Christian Association of Nigeria said at least 50 people were killed in the violence.”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004893.php#more
Fitzgerald: Persecution of Christians in the Muslim world
And if the treatment of the Maronites in the world press was bad, and that of the Copts nearly as bad, so is that of the Assyrian and Chaldean Christians. They are the true indigenes, the descendants of those who were in Mesopotamia long before the Muslim Arabs arrived in small numbers, but nevertheless relentlessly managed to Islamize and to Arabize, non-Muslim and non-Arab peoples. The remnant that managed to survive is now being marginalized — whether under Saddam’s direct rule or Sistani’s indirect rule hardly matters, for the key to the marginalization of all these indigenous Christian groups is Islam.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004245.php
Spencer on the Persecution of Christians: When Will the World Notice?
The latest outrage in Egypt has been, like all the others, almost universally ignored by the international media and human rights groups. Wafaa Constantine Messiha, wife of a Coptic priest in Egypt, was abducted by jihadist Muslims and forced to convert to Islam. The Mubarak regime has done nothing. This is no isolated incident: Wilfred Wong of the Jubilee Campaign, a Christian human rights group, notes that “the attempts to force Christians to convert to Islam in Egypt are on the increase and the methods are getting increasingly varied and well organized. Some of these forced conversions are carried out by Muslim individuals, with the help of their friends, while others are being conducted by well funded groups.”
The situation has gotten so bad for Copts in Egypt that Pope Shenouda III, the leader of the Coptic Church, recently spoke out boldly about one common method of abduction and forced conversion: “I have received so many letters about what’s happening to the Christian girls who go to supermarket stores to shop. At the store they tell them that they have won and have to go upstairs to receive their award or prize. After that we don’t know what’s happening to these girls upstairs. There is a lot of talking going on about this matter, and I see that what’s happening will create a religious clash in the country. I’m urging the police to take a serious action against what’s happening.”

When Islam reforms itself, then I will take people such as Abu Omar seriously.

I wrote a long post, but I guess it got stuck in the SPAM-Guard because of the multiple persecution links I posted for Abu Omar. So Phil, if you happen to read this, it’s in the SPAM pile

“Unless Muslims want a position as a state church here, which would frankly be absurd

Yes, exactly. And why do you think that it is absurd!!
It is already done in Austria.”

It’s absurd, because the connection between the state and religion is a relic which we’re trying to get rid of. State and church, politics and religion, should be separate things. Combining them results in tyrannies such as Saudi-Arabia. And for clarity’s sake: this connection does not include all christians either, only the lutheran and orthodox church.

“There is no Islamic cemetery (graveyard) in Finland.”

I believe it’s possible to host your own private cemetarys, money talks and so on. The freethinkers have their own. Just pay up like everyone else.

“Circumcision is not allowed by law in Finland, while it is allowed in Sweden. That’s why many Muslims in Finland circumcise their baby boys in Sweden or in their home countries.”

Circumcision is mutilation and medically unnecessary, why should the state encourage it?

“There is no way to have an official Islamic school administrated by the Finnish authorities. Muslims do have such schools in some EU countries, such as Sweden, Belgium, UK, France, etc.”

Are these the same qua’ran schools which for example the london bombers went on? Again, it’s possible to start your own school in Finland, heck you can even educate your children by yourself if you want to.

“Mosques are not supported by the state, and are not recognized as a “worshiping place””

Why should they be supported? Neither are any minority christian churches. Lutherans are more tied up with the state, but they also offer a good deal of social services for their rights.

“Donations made by Muslims to mosques are not deductible from their tax”

Why on earth should they be? No one else gets tax deductions from religious donations either.

One more matter Abu,

Christians have been fleeing the ME for decades due to discrimination and intimidation. Most notably in the Palestinian Authority, where Christians have left in droves. Where Christians once made up the overhwelming majority of Bethlehem, are now a dismal minority.

Don’t even try the well worn out ‘disingenuous’ canard of ”Its the occupation”, because Muslims are’nt leaving, in fact they are taking over …a traditonal Christian city. The only area in which Christians population is on the rise…….is in Israel.

Abu Omar, I’m seriously starting to think whether you’re illiterate or a fundamentalist Christian provocateur trying give Islam a bad name. Your style is irresponsible: you write claims which the following writer can easily deny as being misinformation which you don’t comment anymore because you think it’s the easiest way of being caught for deliberate lying. I’m the Anon 49 (the other anonymous people are different). Below I’m attaching my original post with the parts you declined to comment anymore when I caught of of lying. Then I’m commenting forward. Please this time at least try to make an effort to reply.

———-

You simply talk nosense. Below you can see a link to the Population Register Centre (unfortunately this is in not available in English):

http://www.vrk.fi/vrk/files.nsf/files/9F361FCA95908895C2256FE80043312C/$file/rek.uskonnolliset+yhdk++31.12.2004.htm

ABU OMAR, first you claimed Islam is not recognized in Finland. Here’s the proof it is. Time to apologize for deliberate disinformation and mockery? Or were you serious you didn’t know? By the way, if you’re a Muslim, how come you don’t know the place you go to pray exists and is registered?

———-

As for the naturalization thing, I don’t know of any country where you can become head of state with being a citizen by birth. Can you name an Islamic country where that would be possible? What about

ABU OMAR, can you?

———-

those Islamic countries – as far as I know, at least Saudi Arabia and the supposedly liberal UAE – which practically don’t give citizenship to immigrants even if they’ve been living there for ages? And which don’t anyway give citizenship to people who are not Muslims??? What would you say if Finnish citizenship was only granted to Christians? I would find that horrible.

ABU OMAR, what would you say? As for the Saudi Arabian part here, get it, man, these countries are propagating they’re democratic and what does neutrality have to do here as you claim in your reply? Finland is not officially neutral (just military non-aligned), SA is neutral.

———-

As for mosques, in many Islamic countries, even Iran and Pakistan, non-Moslems can often/usually/generally visit them. However, for example every single mosque in Saudi Arabia is strictly off-limits to non-Moslems, and in such countries as the UAE and others in the Gulf, there’s usually one showcase mosque per country where infidels can visit during special opening hours.

ABU OMAR, first you claimed all mosques outside Mecca can by visited by non-Moslems. Here are the fact which you of course declined to comment anymore. How many lies can you fit into a shortish e-mail?

———-

Anonymous:

NO. Muslims are not recognized as a religious community , they are recognized as a cult or group.

ABU OMAR, no, they are registered as religious congregations. See above my link to the Population Register Centre for that. Hand on your heart, did you lie or are you illiterate?

———-

- There is no Islamic cemetery (graveyard) in Finland.

ABU OMAR, there’s one in Helsinki, located next to the Orthodox one in Hietaniemi. You’re a Muslim and never been there or even heard about it? Been there a couple of times myself, it’s beautiful and maintained by the Tatars. Are you now ignorant or just spreading disinformation?

———-

- Circumcision is not allowed by law in Finland, while it is allowed in Sweden. That’s why many Muslims in Finland circumcise their baby boys in Sweden or in their home countries.

ABU OMAR, this is nonsense. Circumcision for BOYS is legal here although there’s a debate whether it should be or not. Female circumcision is illegal, though. Now you’ll claim the ban is racist or something or you’ll use your other constant argument, i.e. it’s culture, not religion?

———-

- There is no way to have an official Islamic school administrated by the Finnish authorities. Muslims do have such schools in some EU countries, such as Sweden, Belgium, UK, France, etc.

ABU OMAR, show us the proof! There are very few religious schools here anyway, if you’ve been following the discussion here lately. The Tatars had their own school up to the 1960s. Do you know of any ATTEMPT to have an Islamic school estalished? If, so tell the details to all your readers here! The authorities are generally even against Christian schools or those following Rudolf Steiner’s pedagogy (Waldorf schools).

———-

- Mosques are not supported by the state, and are not recognized as a “worshiping place”

ABU OMAR, what do you mean they’re not recognized as a worshipping place??? Of course they are.

———-

None are in buildings which only have this mosque but it doesn’t matter, the point is that there are mosques, so what’s the problem?

No it does matter!
Why Muslims in Sweden do have their mosques as a building?

ABU OMAR, why does it matter? You need a sacred place, and that can be within a building, not an entire building. Can you then please tel us why this matters? And when has the building of a mosque, where, by whom, why been banned here? Do you know of any concrete plan? No, because there hasn’t been any. Needless to stress again, if you’ve the money, a good plan and all the permits, you should have one.

———-

What about those Islamic countries – as far as I know, at least Saudi Arabia and the supposedly liberal UAE – which practically don’t give citizenship to immigrants even if they’ve been living there for ages? And which don’t anyway give citizenship to people who are not Muslims??? What would you say if Finnish citizenship was only granted to Christians? I would find that horrible.

Yes, I agree with you. BUT those countries are not parading their neutrality and democracy as EU countries do.

ABU OMAR, your claims are so irrational that I can’t believe you’re not a deliberate provocateur writing against your thoughts. You really mean a country should be democratic if it parades that but a country that wouldn’t parade don’t even have to?

Now, please take some time and try to reply to my questions and tell us why you’ve chosen this strategy of discussion: first you lie/give disinformation, then it’s corrected (which doesn’t need a great effort because your mistakes are so obvious), then you ignore it, then you tell another lie and so on. You think we can’t read what’s been posted above?

Anonymous

Anonymous (Anon 49)

Funny how you judge things …
Who told you that my comment # 51 at 8:06 pm was my farewell comment !
Do expect me to stay tuned at my computer 24 hours to catch all claims and to answer them promptly !
After all, I posted 20 comments (out of 54) being in a confrontation with ALL of you.

Anyway, my answers are coming soon (NOT after 5 seconds as the zealot “Anon 49″ might expect)

Do you think that this the best way to present your ideas. Below is a list of your words against me:

illiterate
fundamentalist
Christian provocateur
irresponsible
misinformation
deliberate lying
caught of of lying
talk nosense
deliberate disinformation
mockery
How many lies can you fit into a shortish e-mail?
did you lie or are you illiterate?
spreading disinformation
deliberate provocateur
irrational
first you lie
then you ignore it

Abu Omar, but that’s a lovely list. I thought it was good stuff that I wrote but yes, it rules… I should actually print your mail and have it framed on my wall. I didn’t know I can type so fast and include so many English niceties in an e-mail. My old English teachers would perhaps be proud of me now .

Anon 49

KGS59 # 47

The http://www.jcpa.org is an Israeli website, and you have to expect even more lies about Palestinians.

OK,
Let me ask you couple of questions and I hope that you will address all of them:

Christians have been living under the Islamic rule since 638.
Did they realize NOW that they are Living amidst a xenophobic Muslim population plagued by endemic violence bordering on anarchy !!!

What made them to stay under the Islamic rule for 1300 years?
Why all of their historical churches and symbols are not touched since 638?
Why did they support Saladin against the Crusaders?

This paragraph is quite funny:
Their plight is, in part, attributable to the adoption of Muslim religious law (Sharia) in the Constitution of the Palestinian Authority

You need to read about the Fatah and PLO to know how is the “Palestinian Authority”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO

KGS59 # 48

You know, it is very easy to bring internet websites for any idea you want.
Did you notice that all of my websites references are based on Wikipedia !? thinking of it as an impartial source of information.

Please think about my questions in my previous comment (# 57)

KGS59 # 48

You know, it is very easy to bring internet websites for any idea you want.

Did you notice that all of my websites references are based on Wikipedia !? thinking of it as an impartial source of information.

Please think about my questions in my previous comment (# 57)

Yeah,
I am beginning to believe that since ‘Omar’s’ arguements are so nonsensical, this poster is just using ‘Omar’ as a ‘straw man’. Any Muslim would know where friends or relatives are buried, or that circumcision is not illegal for boys, unless his intention as a Muslim was to lie in order to gain sympathy for his cause.

Either way its dishonest.

I would trust the Israeli website any day of the week.

Just pick anything out of professor Justus Weiner’s report and intellegently and scientifically show us all ‘what is at fault’ with it and the logic behind its claims. Just saying its ‘Israeli’, is just an ”emotional” response, meant on discouraging anyone anyone from taking it seriously. I also find your remark not only stupid, but humurous as well, since your types regulary quote Israeli Leftist groups like Beit Selem and others.

If its a pro-Palestinain Israeli group (usually a moonbat Leftist type) you guys heap all kinds of credibility and praise on them. Lets try being honest for a change.

Actually you have given me a chance to encourage ALL who read this posts to read Professor Weiners report: here:http://www.jcpa.org/text/Christian-Persecution-Weiner.pdf THANKS!!

Abu Omar= Mikko Ellila, one well know flamer who came to the old Finland Forum board to stir up trouble. He has raised his ugly head around here in various Pseudonames as well.

One more thing’Abu’,

Minority representation in a non-democratic non-pluralistic society with respect for human/civil rights is mere ‘window dressing’ for outside viewing. Their representation is only significant when it resides in a true democracy with credible working institutions that respect the human/civil rights of all of its citizens.

As for why did persecuted minorities stay put in Muslim lands, its also true that they encountered the same scenario pretty much throughout the ME. As for Jews, anti-Semitism was more mild than in Europe, depending on the ruler at any one time. But the European strain of anti-Semitism has found a permenant home within the Islamic ME, proving that European ideals can be accepted by Muslims, even if its the wrong type.

Anon 49:

———-

ABU OMAR, first you claimed Islam is not recognized in Finland. Here’s the proof it is. Time to apologize for deliberate disinformation and mockery? Or were you serious you didn’t know? By the way, if you’re a Muslim, how come you don’t know the place you go to pray exists and is registered?

Did I say that Islam is not recognized in Finland ??
In my postings I said that “Islam is not recognized as a religion in Finland” (refer to comments 45 & 51).
And my point was clear from the beginning where I gave Austria as an example.

In Austria, Islam is recognized the same way as the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant churches. See the Reference below:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm

In Finland, Islam is not recognized as a religion. Muslims are recognized as a cult or sect (as the Jehovah’s Witnesses group for example).
Having some registered Islamic congregations does not mean that Islam is recognized as a religion!
I myself is an active member in couple of these groups.

———-

ABU OMAR, first you claimed all mosques outside Mecca can by visited by non-Moslems. Here are the fact which you of course declined to comment anymore. How many lies can you fit into a shortish e-mail?

Yes, ALL mosques can be visited by any non-Muslim. Only Mecca is restricted to Muslims.
Come and visit us in this mosque. It is open from 12:30 to 20:30. (It is a sincere invitation)
http://www.masjidiman.com/

———-

ABU OMAR, no, they are registered as religious congregations. See above my link to the Population Register Centre for that. Hand on your heart, did you lie or are you illiterate?

No I did not lie, but you did not understand.
Go and check the link above to see how religions are recognized in Austria.

———-

ABU OMAR, this is nonsense. Circumcision for BOYS is legal here although there’s a debate whether it should be or not. Female circumcision is illegal, though. Now you’ll claim the ban is racist or something or you’ll use your other constant argument, i.e. it’s culture, not religion?

The Muslims are lost among these debates about male circumcision.
Male circumcision is religiously mandated and it should be considered in this basis.

http://www.courtchallenge.com/news/lskl1.html
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20030325IE14

———-

ABU OMAR, show us the proof! There are very few religious schools here anyway, if you’ve been following the discussion here lately. The Tatars had their own school up to the 1960s. Do you know of any ATTEMPT to have an Islamic school estalished? If, so tell the details to all your readers here! The authorities are generally even against Christian schools or those following Rudolf Steiner’s pedagogy (Waldorf schools).

There has been many attempts to establish an Islamic School funded by the state.
I can not promise to provide you with all details since the latest attempt was in summer 2003. However, I will try.

———-

ABU OMAR, there’s one in Helsinki, located next to the Orthodox one in Hietaniemi. You’re a Muslim and never been there or even heard about it? Been there a couple of times myself, it’s beautiful and maintained by the Tatars. Are you now ignorant or just spreading disinformation?

Yes, I know that one, and I know for sure that it is owned by Tatars group and not by Muslims. Only Tatar dead can be buried there.
Islam mandates that Muslims should be buried in separate graves far from Christian graves (or any other unbelievers). Since Islam is not recognized as a religion, Muslims are offered a row of graves in one cemetery in Vanta (near the airport).
I participated in five funerals last year, and it was pity to see that we have to burry our dead in the same cemetery with others.

KGS59:

unless his intention as a Muslim was to lie in order to gain sympathy for his cause.
You have to apologize for this !
Or otherwise to show me where are my lies.

Observation:
I bet that your childish mind will make the following conclusion and will generalize it to all Muslims:
Muslims lie in order to gain sympathy

KGS59:
Just pick anything out of professor Justus Weiner’s …….. and others.

If you don’t open you mind and judge things yourself, you will remain enslaved by the media.

Example: Fox News viewers
33% of them still think that U.S. had discovered the alleged stockpiles of WMD in Iraq since the war began
67% of them think U.S. had “clear evidence” that Saddam Hussein was “working closely with al Queda
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/714.html

KGS59:

Christians have been fleeing the ME for decades due to discrimination and intimidation. Most notably in the Palestinian Authority, where Christians have left in droves. Where Christians once made up the overhwelming majority of Bethlehem, are now a dismal minority.

Christians, Discrimination, Intimidation, …. , all in Palestine
=> Why don’t you declare the New Crusade to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims !!

Anonymous:

Abu Omar= Mikko Ellila, one well know flamer who came to the old Finland Forum board to stir up trouble. He has raised his ugly head around here in various Pseudonames as well.

There is one post about “Monica Lewinsky”,
Go there and enjoy.

I assure you that there will not be any “Abu Omar” or “Mikko Ellila” to stir up troubles.

Oh Abu Omar,

”May the flies of a thousand camels infest your armpits”, if you really did know that the circumcision for boys in Finland is not illegal, but lied and said it was.

KGS59:

‘’May the flies of a thousand camels infest your armpits’’
=> Passed off.

circumcision for boys in Finland is not illegal
=> See the URLs in my comment #64