yes that’s a fairly extraordinary thing to write. The poverty line is being calculated as 50% of the mean so you get the point. The unemployed and students live below it and we’ve got a lot of both. Still, 50% of the mean is about $14,000 per year, which isn’t really all that bad.

“Still, 50% of the mean is about $14,000 per year”

Actually it’s not that much. I don’t remember the median income but I’m sure it’s under 25000 euros/year.

sorry for using your nick

It~s a warning to the spd: you~re deviating from “trully left policies”, put up your taxes for nokia directores, bank managers and rich bastards!

ps:The poverty line is calculated as 60% of the mean

How much is 14k/year after taxes? And how about living off of that in the Helsinki area, that barely covers rent and food. That has to be tough.

Maybe they are not counting all of the social welfare that the Finnish State provides accurately?

USD 14 000 per year…let me check my Reuters screen for the EURUSD FX rate…=1.1906. That makes EUR 11 758.78 per year, which is EUR 979.90 per month. ‘Which isn’t really all that bad’??? Finnsense you have got to live with your mother, if you think EUR 979.90 ‘isn’t really all that bad’.

One can’t possible pay one’s tailor bills with such poor cashflow. Impossible I tell you.

Heh, while studying and working part time at HKL, I made pretty closely that 14k/a. OK, I had a HOAS housing and student discounts, but I never had to count the monies and compared to the opintotuki&MacJob guy next door, I was a bloody Rockefeller.

My kids make below the poverty line, both are in college, and both could go out and get state support (Claim Welfare, get food stamps, etc).

Kind of funny but both refuse to do so (One is defiantly a lefty at heart, but not in action). They would rather go to Wal-Mart and eat ROMA-Noodles (4 servings for a dollar) than ever stand in a Government welfare line.

Me thinks, I did well, educating my young ones.

““Current political choices” ?? Well who’s been in government during the past decade or so?”

Or during several decades… but of course welfare-statist-Stakes actually means the evil liberal economy politics being pushed in the recent years. The welfare state is practically being torn down.

Statistically there are now more poor, because some are getting rich and some are not. I thought libertarians love that? In the libertarian utopia, income differences would be astronomical! And naturally the minarchist state would also rob poor people’s right to pick berries.

Finnsense you have got to live with your mother, if you think EUR 979.90 ‘isn’t really all that bad’.

I hope that’s sarcasm. I get some 430e a month and get by just fine. Sure, the rent would be higher if i lived in Helsinki but then again they would pay me a bit more too. Bottom line, people consume too much. I have money for new CDs and DVDs and everything useless too so I don’t exactly live like a monk.

Pave, if you get by with EUR 430 a month, and you have to pay rent from that, I honestly admire your thriftyness. That is a true skill.

lots of students in finland yes. but finland produces some 75000 master degrees a year. a few years of suffering until the key to prosperity is in ones hands. then again, there can only be so many managers, teachers, etc in a country of five million residents. perhaps finland should import even more immigrants to do the “shit” work so the retirees can enjoy pullakahvi in the old folks homes.. until then, finlands greatest export will be educated brains.

Homicide Rate Table (Death rates are per 100,000)
USA – Finland – France – Canada
5.70 – 3.24 – 1.12 – 2.16
(http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html)

Sexually transmitted diseases, among 15-19, per 100 000
USA – Finland – France – Canada
Chlamydia: 1,131.6 – 650.8 – 55.1 – 563.3
Gonorrhea: 571.8 – 3.7 – 7.7 – 59.4
Syphilis: 6.4 – 1.8 – n/a – 0.6

(http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/3202400.html)

Number of people without health care coverage:
USA: 45-50 MILLION
Finland, France, Canada: NONE

So keep on talking about “European” problems….

Phil should switch off this “Remember the last name”-option.

According to Stakes those who are threatened are (mostly) young families. Nowadays people don’t have a decent work history when they become parents and thus are not getting decent social security. Goes to show that there is something wrong with the system.

According to Stakes those who are threatened are (mostly) young families. Nowadays people don’t have a decent work history when they become parents and thus are not getting decent social security. Goes to show that there is something wrong with the system.

(I pressed esc when I noticed that the name was once again wrong … but was I fast enough?)

Many of these so called poor people should get a life!! I know too many that are just lazy socialist who enjoy getting their benefits from the government.

and actually last summer, to justify trip home i did pick berries. i made a grip (ie a shitload of money tax free) i would be happy to do it again. do you finland fuckers know how much a cloudberry is worth?

Phil should switch off this “Remember the last name”-option.

I haven’t seen that option.

Pave, if you get by with EUR 430 a month, and you have to pay rent from that, I honestly admire your thriftyness. That is a true skill.

I’m sure anyone could do that if they wanted to. As I said, I do not even have to really plan it, there’s lots of stuff that i don’t need but i buy anyway. So what are people spending their money on? I suspect booze and fuel.

Besides working the summer will make up for whatever you lost during the winter. jenkki has a point there…

How much is 14k/year after taxes? And how about living off of that in the Helsinki area, that barely covers rent and food. That has to be tough.

I got by just fine with about 3000 EUR/a when KELA was paying the bills. A combination of affordable student housing and a tight budget. Of course, you can’t have any expensive hobbies and you pretty much have to stick to “Chateu IMadeItMySelf” and the occasional shot of cheap Estonian vodka instead of decent Bordeaux’s and single malts.

It is quite amusing that you would find poverty so disturbing, as the libertarian solution to the problem is a lifetime of shining shoes with the abovementioned wages and legal crack to keep you happy…

Oh sorry. I forgot. The free market will make billionaires out of all the shoe-shiners and burger flippers.

After paying the rent, my total income is about 200e/month and I think I’m doing pretty well. I have never had to give up anything. I never go to Pubs and stuff (as an absolutist) though, but trust me, I _really_ enjoy my life the way it is and I even feel kinda lucky….

(Gosh, I never thought I’m considered as a “poor” person here! I think I’m rich… In a different way you think, but anyway ).

Do you people only pay rent? No electricity, tv license fee, insurance, water, heating, and such? Also do that from 200 a month?

Ten percent sounds rediculous. Why, because globally one is poor if he/she earns less than one dollar a day. EU and US have their own poverty levels. I had a post about this in my 2nd blog Canopy: Poverty Compared(http://sampsa.wordpress.com/2006/01/13/poverty-compared/), in which living standards of an unemployed US citizen and a Kongolese doctor are compared. I hope the post will give some perspective to the issue.

Recently in Finnish press has focused on students who are queing for free food and clothes. To be frank, I don’t understand why students are doing this. people in their best work condition. Either the students in the queues are so busy studying that they don’t have time to work, are lazy and take advantage of charity, or feel that as we now are in University we don’t have to suffer in crappy jobs.

I just finished my 6 years of studies in Helsinki University and did financially pretty well (had money to party) during those years. Yes, I had to work and get bank loan but so what? I chose to study in hope of a more sensible career, instead of career climbing in “a company” and getting paid immediately. to compare how “we” students have it today, my parents didn’t get any study support back in the ’70s and paid all their expenses with bank loans.

I do agree strongly and know that KELA (state) support is pocket money in Helsinki. When living in a flat rented from the private sector in the capital, you can barely pay the rent. This is an issue that politicians should notice; KELA student support should be equal around the whole country, indexed to regional living cost (rent) rate.

Nice topic Phil.

(Wow this thing remembered my name!)

Sampsa, KELA’s support for rent is bigger as the rent goes higher. Besides, you find work a LOT more easily in Helsinki than here in Rovaniemi for example. So if the state doesn’t give you enough money you can always go work part-time which is not a very good option here.

Majava: Rent includes water and heating here. Electricity is some 6e a month (fixed price). Insurance is for pussies. I don’t pay TV license fee, the amount goes beyond ridiculous. Broadband is 17e. So I end up with almost exactly 200e a month for everything else.

No Satellite TV in Finland? To get around the State TV Fee?

How will the state collect the fee when we start getting TV on our broadband connection? Its already out there.

(Hmmm… is this thing guessing who else I might be, now it says “Drakon”)

Hehehee. My annual income has been roughly 2000 € for a few years, and I collect no support money from the system, just doesn’t seem right to take free money for no reason. But I have savings and close relatives that farm, so that makes it easy to live on, especially since I hunt (bears are surprisingly tasty and the fur leaves a nice pile of euros when it is relocated to a buyers wall or clothing).

Must be a browser/cookie issue.. I’ve been posting a lot lately and I’ve never had any problems.. WinXP, Firefox 1.5.0.1

Re. 16 TomiA wrote:

According to Stakes those who are threatened are (mostly) young families. Nowadays people don’t have a decent work history when they become parents and thus are not getting decent social security. Goes to show that there is something wrong with the system.

I agree, there is most likely something wrong with the system. To continue the thought:

I didn’t read the study, but I assume that the “young family” means young couple with kids. That would be a newsworthy finding, because traditionally the poor household is most often a single mother household.

Anyway, if we assume that the new poverty threatened families are young couples, and we further assume that they are doing their best to promote their own wellbeing, the finding could show that:

1) The public sector promises benefits that make it an optimal choice for young couples to have their children before having that decent work history. For instance the couple might calculate that they lose some income-dependent discounts/benefits in child care if they first have decent incomes and then have children. Or they might expect to not have those decent incomes in any case, so there is no good reason to postpone starting a family.

2) The couples fail to predict their future chances and to choose between their options correctly. Consequently, they choose to start a family against their own best interest.

3) The condom broke and abortion is not an acceptable option.

But then, would it be wise to have sex with someone if it led you to have a clearly unwanted child with that person? A child is, after all, a bigger investment decision than a house: it ties your time use, other consumption, and investments for the next 20+ years. And unlike with houses, there is no resale market. So probably the surprise parents at least “kind of like” the idea of becoming parents. Which brings us back to 1) or 2).

Or perhaps some of those couples-at-risk don’t really care to be couples, but plan to be single parent households?

I recently read a news piece in a Finnish newspaper (Aamulehti?) that the Finnish social workers are worried about an increasing divorce trend among young couples with a first baby. Maybe that trend goes to show that people want to have a baby, but not a spouse. Maybe people want a wedding, but not a marriage. Maybe the woman wants to protect the property rights of the child by marrying the father and divorcing him later. Maybe the man wants to protect his rights to have a fatherly relationship with the child by marrying the mother first and divorcing her later.

I think it is wisest to assume that people do use the options available for them to promote their best interest, but that their best interest might not always be what “the system” assumes or wants it to be.

“and actually last summer, to justify trip home i did pick berries. i made a grip (ie a shitload of money tax free) i would be happy to do it again. do you finland fuckers know how much a cloudberry is worth?” at #17

Exactly. Guess how the country kids financed their mopeds and gadgets. Heck, referring to that immigrant identity in Europe and America discussion, I propose we hand the finnishness of the highest degree to jenkki immigrant with the secret handshake. The comment could have been made by my late WWII veteran grandfather with the f-word included.

“Insurance is for pussies.”

What an utterly juvenile and ignorant thing to say. You deserve to be living off of EUR 200 a month until time eternal. Lets hope your monetary situation stays the same and it prevents individuals such as yourself from procreating.

Go on. Go and call an individual with a family a pussy for taking out insurance policies to protect his children and his property. I’d call that a loving and sensible human being. You on the other hand would call them a pussy?

You are a pleb. The fact that you proclaim it with such clear abandon proves that a pleb you will remain, regardless of your financial circumstances.

My rent includes water, electricity and internet.

Jenkki immigrant:
Homicide Rate Table (Death rates are per 100,000)

Homicide rates are dropping in the US but are on the rise in Europe. US suffers from high homicide rates because of certain black/latino neighborhoods. These neighborhoods have only lately started to appear in Europe while they’ve existed in the US for centuries.

Number of people without health care coverage:
USA: 45-50 MILLION

Health insurance or not those people are still free to walk in to a hospital and expect treatment. Besides – those 45-50 million people are not without a health insurance at all times. Periods without a health insurance are usually short term.

Health insurance or not those people are still free to walk in to a hospital and expect treatment.

in case of an emergency.

Mikko,

You don’t really believe what you just wrote do you? Firstly, the homicide rate in the US is three times that in Europe and it’s dropping a little bit in some places in the US and rising in others. Secondly, several European nations have plenty of minorities and have had them for decades. Sweden has as high a proportion of minorities as the US.

As for health insurance, you will get treated in the US if it is an emergency (i.e. you will die) but if you go into a hospital without coverage because you feel bad or have been having headaches, or need a couple of stiches or have toothache or mild bronchitis, you won’t even be seen. You need to be visibly in serious trouble. The only person I’ve ever heard argue what you just argued is Bill O’Reilly so it’s pretty shoddy company you keep.

just want you all to know that comment #14 was not me. interesting fact charts anyways. however #34, i’m not sure i agree with you that the u.s. has a high homicide rate because we have blacks and latinos…if i remember, finland had a pretty high homicide rate during the civil war, and all you had here were white people.

Wow! Did I hit a nerve or something? “Insurance is for pussies” was my way of saying I can do without it while i’m a student and it’s not a necessity. IT WAS NOT MEANT TO SOUND LIKE ALL INSURANCE PAYERS ARE PUSSIES. Sorry for hurting your feelings but you win the prize for overreacting if you ask me…

“You deserve to be living off of EUR 200 a month until time eternal. Lets hope your monetary situation stays the same and it prevents individuals such as yourself from procreating.”

If you’re trying to say that I get all the money I deserve, then I agree. I don’t really need any more. And about procreating… well if we ever decide to have kids I might just get that insurance then. But that’s not on the agenda right now. Do you think money is a problem if one wants to procreate?

Even though I have no insurance I do get excellent health care at the university. Insurance companies seem very dodgy to me anyway.

Finn”sense”:
“Firstly, the homicide rate in the US is three times that in Europe and it’s dropping a little bit in some places in the US and rising in others.”

Tell me one state where the homicide rates haven’t dropped since the beginning of the 90′s.

“Secondly, several European nations have plenty of minorities and have had them for decades. Sweden has as high a proportion of minorities as the US.”

And as was posted here some days ago, a remarkable proportion of our (Europe’s) prisoners are either Muslims or immigrants. This is the so called European “social model”. Compare Malmö’s crime statistics to that of other cities in Sweden. Finland has, at least on some level, managed to avoid most of these problems simply because we have so little foreigners here.

Violent crime in the US is most existant in neighborhoods where nearly or over half of the population consists of non-whites. This is a statistical fact:
http://m-sandt.blogspot.com/2005/12/violent-crime-in-american-cities.html

“As for health insurance, you will get treated in the US if it is an emergency (i.e. you will die) but if you go into a hospital without coverage because you feel bad or have been having headaches, or need a couple of stiches or have toothache or mild bronchitis, you won’t even be seen. You need to be visibly in serious trouble.”

Sounds reasonable yet there are more than one type of hospitals in the US. Many take in the poor and the weak and give them what they need. It’s not like it’s much better here – the state-run hospitals won’t spend extra money on you just to be sure. This leads to delayed operations and deaths.

“The only person I’ve ever heard argue what you just argued is Bill O’Reilly so it’s pretty shoddy company you keep.”

And?

Violent crime in the US is most existant in neighborhoods where nearly or over half of the population consists of non-whites.

And?

It’s not like it’s much better here [about the health care]

Actually it’s without a doubt much better. I suppose it takes a libertarian to think that it’s “reasonable” that the poor get just emergency care.

“Wow! Did I hit a nerve or something?”

Of course you hit a nerve, you hit my ‘I don’t suffer fools’ nerve. I thought that would be blatantly obvious to anyone who is literate.

““Insurance is for pussies” was my way of saying I can do without it while i’m a student and it’s not a necessity.”

There’s a place for you in politics after all. What you wrote was very clear. The fact that you feel the need to explain it after the fact, makes you appear like… hang on, I know, I’ll say it with a word even you can understand…It makes you appear like a pussy.

“Do you think money is a problem if one wants to procreate?”

I would certainly hope it would come in as a primary consideration (in your case obviously that would be asking too much) since a person planning on a family should be able to provide for their family.

Jukka:

Seriously, I was trying to be funny. Or more like not-as-boring-sounding… Sorry again, you can stop the name-calling now.

As I said, would I have kids in some point of my life I’m sure I’d make sure they had all they needed for a happy life. Providing love and care is part of that too, not just putting food on the table.

You say money is the most important thing you need for raising children. I would go for love. But of course money is important – especially in our society – when did I say that it’s not? I live a very non-consuming life right now but that doesn’t mean that my children would have to beg or anything. Bah, I don’t understand why your attacking me. Are you just trolling?