Interesting. Just a note, basically two main types of citizenship can be found in Europe, traditionally (as you will find in the literature) labelled as the German ethnic type (jus sanguinis) and the French civic type (jus solis). Legally meaning the German model is more interested in who you’re born to and the French in where you’re born, in terms of citizenship.

Also traditionally, French policy towards all those non-French is precisely trying to make them all French. It would be possible to argue that this is exactly where they are wrong (examples could be 19th century policies in West Africa or the recent immigrant riots). The essence of the European Union for the French is that it is a grand French project with the ultimate goal of making Europe French, to put it simplistically. For those more interested, the French republican approach to immigration largely rests on the following; universalism (Rights of Man, 1789), unitarism (la république une et indivisible), the separation of church and state (laïcité), and the politics of assimilation.

Ok, so it’s 11pm on Monday and I’m bored. Was just wondering then how you would categorise American nationalism? (To me, clearly there is such a thing.)

Well, the Swedes had the “french model” to “Swedifying” the immigrants. Worked bllody well on my cousins – they are not “Finnish” even their name by the “german model” says so.

Americans are mainly wannabe’s. If they cannot speak the language they are wanna-be something-american they are just wanna-be. As in if you speak Finnish you are a Finn, pay taxes and suffer. You drive a SUV and complain $1.20 a gallon is expensive for d
gas – you’re a wannabe. Only few people I’ve met that say they are “Americans” and proud of it… must be they’ve lived here a few years and noticed that having some plumber impregnate your grandma doesn’t make you any more apt for controlling faucets.

Oh something else that caught my eye; Polish nationalism is very interesting. Much of it came about due the fact Poland did not as such exist for over a century. A while back I did some research on the partitions of Poland and the subsequent romantic nationalism of the early 19th century. Before the partitions you might argue Poland (or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was a multi-ethnic, multi-lingual and multi-religious society, notable for its religious tolerance as well as its own form of democracy, something which was actually still evident in the 1980s Solidarity movement. But then European history is full of examples of how non-unitary states do not really survive.

I may need to get a life.

Join the club.

I always have wondered when i will stop being Mexican-American and just start being American.

it is a grand French project with the ultimate goal of making Europe French

Didn’t Napoleon try that once?

“Only few people I’ve met that say they are “Americans” and proud of it…”

I am an American and I am very proud to be one:)

Then again, we probably haven’t met.

—————————————————–
SUV’s are overrated. Anyway, saving energy is the new big sport around here these days:

Maryland gets less road revenue than expected as drivers cut back

Scottish – American, and just love going to Scottish Games, for the Bridies (Little meat things you eat), and beer.

But then the local Wine Fest comes, I go there for a case of local wine. (Food as well)

Guess I just want to join all traditions, as they each have good food and cheer!

Its great to live in the USA. Good stuff all the time.

“This ethnic definition of citizenship and basis for the state is one main cause of many of Europe′s problems.”

Yeah, US of A is really showing the way to us undynamic and problematic Europeans:

“Americans are among the world’s most cash-strapped people, according to the latest semi-annual survey from ACNielsen released Tuesday.

Nearly a quarter (22 percent) of Americans have no money left once they’ve paid for their ESSENTIAL living expenses and spent their discretionary dollars. That puts the United States at the top of a list of 42 countries for saving futility. The United States is neck and neck with Portugal.”

Country, % of consumers with no spare cash
United States: 22%
Portugal: 22%
Canada: 19%
United Kingdom: 17%
France: 16%
Netherlands: 15%
Turkey: 14%
Germany: 13%
Chile: 12%
South Korea: 12%

In addition, Americans are saving more cash by curtailing some of their discretionary spending. Nielsen reports that 66 percent of those surveyed said they have cut down on take-away meals; 61 percent have TURNED DOWN the thermostat to save on gas and electricity; 61 percent have cut back on home entertainment; 54 percent on new clothes; and 47 percent do less driving.”

Total nonsense.

tim73

and yet the economy keeps on trucking.

Sorry but your posts just don’t match reality. But then again, I did turn up the thermostat today, as the temp dropped down to 32 degrees F.

Question is? Is your glass half full or half empty?

Don’t agree.. just look to Sarkozy, says he’s french, says emigrants are “racaille” and want to be the next french president. According to your post he would have to be called a pole!

Was just wondering then how you would categorise American nationalism?

According to his article, Munkhammar is hanging around Washington DC, a city full of immigrants and Americans from other cities (no one in DC is actually from DC). He should go past Dulles airport on Route 66 for an hour or two then ask the locals about Americans and Americanism and he might get a different answer.

Oh something else that caught my eye; Polish nationalism is very interesting.

I’m half Polish- half German. It’s a very common question from even complete strangers, “Where are your ancestors from?” or something like that.

Baltimore has a very large and loyal Polish population. My father grew up in a Polish neighborhood.

Nearly a quarter (22 percent) of Americans have no money left once they’ve paid for their ESSENTIAL living expenses and spent their discretionary dollars.

Heh, ask an American what is “essential” and you’ll get some wild answers. When I was living in one part of the city, beer, cigarettes, and weed were absolutely “essential” goods. Food came fourth.

I have became an American over a decade ago. It’s a great country and I am proud to be a part of it. I know for sure that my kids would be 100% Americans and nobody would give a rats ass where their parents came from. Actually, I have never met anyone who asked me why I’m living here. I think Europeans all too preoccupied with their bullshit nationalistic views (jus sanguinis, jus solis, #$%&*|:+-%, blah-blah) to live and appreciate their lives in full, hence all their problems.

I may need to get a life

a nice and long vacation away from the books with plenty of sun and sex should do it works for me.

“I think none of them were actually born in these countries and hardly were their parents. But their family originally comes from there, which they are very interested in and proud of. America is an inclusive society, an immigrant country. You can be Irish and American at the same time.”

You could interpret it that way. Alternatively, you could interpret it as a sign of the weakness of American identity. For some it is not sufficient to be American, they crave the depth of history and meaning that Europeans have and so reach back to their ancestry in order to add some gravitas to their cultural identity. Europeans, on the other hand (and Chinese and Indian and most every other nation) feel less need to hyphenate their nationality because their given cultural identity is already strong enough to place them.

Of course, its all a huge generalisation; I’d not be surprised to learn that both interpretations are true, for different people.

(Btw, how do you do italics here?)

-BM

Passer-by said Sarkozy should be called a “pole” if what is said in this post would be true. He’s no Pole, Nicolas Paul Stéphane Sárközy de Nagy-Bocsa is proud of his aristocratic Hungarian heritage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy

There’s nothing shocking about a descendant of immigrants of noble origins looking down on other immigrants. Stuff like that has happened throughout American history as well. Immigrants never really tend to see all other immigrants as exactly like themselves.

There’s an issue here to do with history. America is an idea as much as a place. The idea was that being American was about what you believe not what genes you have or where you came from. That’s why all Americans are both American (believe in the American Dream) and something else.

In Europe when you say what nationality you are, you’re not endorsing an idea but making a statement of fact.

There is another side too. No black British person would need to refer to himself as “African-British” or “Caribbean-British”. He would just say he is British.

“Sarkozy says that his father considered Hungary too small a country, and the Hungarian language and culture useless in the modern world.”

I think French is about as useless

IMHO the thing (we) Europeans call Nationalism is pretty much the same thing Americans call Patriotism. The Nationalists spend their time trying to sort out “the foreign” in their country, where the Patriots spend the same amount of time trying to sort out “the un-american” in theirs.

Both ideologies are useful when [fill in a nation] is facing great threats (the World Wars, 9/11 etc.) because then they work as combinign forces that give people the feeling of being part of something great and powerful instead of facing the danger alone. But in times of (relative?) peace they can be very destructive..

As for cultural identities: (IMHO again) they are so much more than what country you are from, and trying to simplify them under such headings as “Finnish” or “American”, as easy as it may seem, is almost useless. For example: a young born-bread-and-fed Finn from the countryside can nowadays identify more with some Californian sub-culture than the culture he/she lives in.

To put it shortly: the natural state of a culture is change. They’re costantly absorbing influences and interacting with other cultures.

T

Ps. when I speak of culture I see it in the widest possible way: something that includes every aspect of a persons/people’s life from the house they live in to the way they hold their forks (if they use them;)) to the god(s) they worship and the music they listen. Everything.

Finnsense: “In Europe when you say what nationality you are, you’re not endorsing an idea but making a statement of fact.”

But is it a fact that being British is a nationality at all? Just look at most sports where England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have separate teams. I know, the Olympics is an exception, where British medals are being counted, but still.

This America-bashing is getting old. Look, USA has a different kind of distribution of income and wealth. It’s wider, so there are more rich people and more poor people and a smaller middle class. The average income is bigger than in Europe, except for Luxembourg.

You can argue that it is crappy to have more poor people, but even then these percentages are idiotic. If you wanna bash America, do it right, do it for the things that actually are wrong. Like military spending or human rights of “hostile combatants” or whatever the word was. Or crime.
(Well, forget crime, cause Finland doesn’t do much better.)

The US was for a long time primarly an “Anglo-Saxon” or “Germanic” project, much more racist than most European countries. Still in the late 19th century it was very hard to get into the US unless you belonged to the “Germanic” or, even better, to the “Anglo-Saxon” “race”. At the same time there were a mass migration of the Jews, for example, to Germany and a few other countries. This racist foundation the US was build on really started to disappear only after the WWII – or in the 60s as could be argued – as did all kinds of racist ideas, also in Europe.

Munkhammar, being a Swede, apparently finds it hard to understand how multicultural Europe is. In central and southern Europe every country has a clear multicultural and multiethnical background. But even Sweden has absorbed many ethnicities into its culture, pretty much the same way the US has. Just think about children of the half a million Finns who migrated there in the 60s and 70s.

Finland, again, is a multicultural – or at least “bicultural – by nature, although it’s not so evident anymore because the Swedish-speaking part of the population has become more and more invisible, so to speak. But I agree that it’s apparently hard to feel Finnish if you are part of some recent minority.

tiedemies,

The post is critical of Europe not America.

Helsinkian,

Yes, you’re probably right. In fact, being from North England is very different from being from the South in terms of sense of humour and other aspects of culture. Still, it’s a world away from being French!

**********

“But is it a fact that being British is a nationality at all? Just look at most sports where England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have separate teams. I know, the Olympics is an exception, where British medals are being counted, but still.”

Britian is a union of (originally) four nations. Think of it as a very very early version of the European Union.;-)

That’s why it is easy for me to say I am Scottish and British, in the same way a Finn could say they are Finnish and European. Its just different levels of identity.

The only British people who think Britain is a nation are (some of) the English, and that’s only because “the Celtic Fringe” is pretty irrelevant to them so that British = English.

-BM

Tiedemies, Norway, too, is richer. See:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
(although these comparisons should be taken with a pinch of salt).

Interestingly enough even Finland would, apparently, be as rich as the US if the Finns just decided to work as long hours as the Americans. Then again, it’s ufair to compare a large country like the USA with, say, such higly urbanized countries like Denmark. California, I seem to remember, if compared as a counry would be the richest by far.

As for crime, I don’t understand what you are talking about. The USA has for example imrpisoned 680 people for every 100 000 citizens, while in Finland the figure is 45. Surely these figures must have something to do with criminal activities (both correlating with crime and perhaps even deterring it).

I was not referring to the post, but the comments.

America has a lot to teach Europe, at least at the level of ideas. Yet,somehow if any such ideas are ever brought to light, people immediately start bashing America, like in the comments here.

I do think that Europe is better in many ways, and perhaps overall, for me, a better place to live. And there are aspects of the American way that are just horrible. But let’s face it, in this respect – assimilating the immigrants – it is much better.

I’m a little bit in doubt, how much finn they let you be with your american double identity. At the 1920′s finnish immigrants were on FBI’s watch list for importing such commie concepts as asunto-osakeyhtiö and ammattiliitto. And are your all-american neighbours perfectly allright with your log sauna construction on the backyard with you chilling out on saturday evening butt naked with your wife and kids.

Excluding some flower-hat aunties, I bet they’ll tolerate the compatible and neat aspects of your old country identity, those that would be appropriate for a Disney movie.

tiedemies,

Comments responding to Europe bahing can hardly be considered anti-American. Munkhammer is a professional anti-European who stated goal in life is to convince the Nordic countries that they should be less happy than they are.

America has a lot to teach Europe about entrepreneurship and innovation but nothing to teach us about assimilating immigrants. As I’ve said on my own blog several times, no-one knows how to integrate immigrants and no-one has done it successfully. Even the US, a nation of immigrants, has terrible race problems. Canada would be a much better example but they too have their problems.

Badger,

Perhaps the English think it’s more than a union because your seat of government is in London (your Parliament has v.little power) as is your Queen, and she’s the Queen of England and talks with a posh English accent.

Correction, shes the queen of the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland.

finnsense-nonsense

Finnsense wrote:

“America has a lot to teach Europe about entrepreneurship and innovation but nothing to teach us about assimilating immigrants. As I’ve said on my own blog several times, no-one knows how to integrate immigrants and no-one has done it successfully. Even the US, a nation of immigrants, has terrible race problems. Canada would be a much better example but they too have their problems.”

I disagree very strongly. American race problems were not caused by immigration but slavery. Secondly, American assimilation of immigrants was never a failure. On the contrary, it was a spectacular success.

What are the terrible race problems the USA is currently suffering from apart from those that can be traced to African-American slavery 150 years ago?

I agree with Markku on that one.
Also, in general in the States it’s more important what you can do and not who you were born to. And if one can do something good, well, the opportunities are out there. I know lotsa immigrants who have easily assimilated in the States and doing quite well. Hey, look at Schwarzenegger. He surely knew what he wanted and he’s got it.

I’m a total loser because I cannot speak Italian yet I am Italian-American.

I’ll say this, Italian-American is its own category. You become aware of your relationship to your parent country via several avenues.

1. Physique. You start growing a beard at the age of 11. Your chest is ape-like by the time you are 15. You have one eyebrow you must work very hard to control. Your hair really is greasy. If you have a sister, it’s likely she may have a mustache too.

2. Cuisine. Imagine being the kid at the lunch table whose Mom sent him to school with mozzerella, sun-dried tomatoes and bread. You think garlic smells good, while others recoil at your oily, garlic-laden food. You know the names for different kinds of pasta and Italian foods and can describe them in a Southern Italian accent, like bresaola is pronounced ‘bra-zhol.’ And not only do you know the food lexicon, but you can eat as well. You’re a “gavone” – a pig. Also, you are disgusted by the way non Italian-Americans eat Italian food, especially Northern Europeans who seem to think tomato sauce and ketchup are the same thing.

3. Society. Society recognizes you as a member of a notorious ethnic group. If all the Jewish kids in school are thought to be the children of lawyers, doctors, and rabbis, Italian families are assumed to be in the restaurant or sanitation business. You are suspected of Mob-ties, in fact, you sort of wish you did have a Mafia tie, just because it may make you more popular in school. Also, you will always be Italian by name. If you are a singer-songwriter, you may feel that you just can’t get as far with a name like Jimmy Abbandando as you could if your name was James Taylor.

4. Sex. You like it a lot. You’re like Maddona Ciccone, stuck between a culture that denies it and uses it to sugar everything. Madonna is the quintessential Italian-American. You wouldn’t catch Linda Ronstadt writhing around in a wedding dress to a song called “Like a Virgin.” We’re hoes.

5. You yell a lot. The toilet may just need a little flick of the handle to stop running, but with you it’s a catastrophe, and it’s somebody else’s fault. To us it is quite natural to start screaming over anything, like “who left the milk out” and pepper it with obscenities. You don’t notice it but it is sort of frightening to northern European types. A typical heated discussion between a mother and son may come off as a matter of life or death to an unknowing listener. But it may just be about car insurance.

When you inherit all of these traits that are shared by people that only come from a certain country, then you no longer can see yourself as the equal of your traditional cattle-rustling American. You must use a term that distinguishes your culture, and there are many smaller cultures in America. For example, I can travel 40 blocks to a majority African-American neighborhood here, and I may not understand 60 percent of what they are saying because they use a different dialect. Not only that, they may dress differently, have different traditional foods. They are culturally different from me, yet we are both Americans.

Does that make any sense?

Americans care so much about their ancestry for several reasons: 1.America is “a nation of immigrants”, more so than any other nation.
2.The span of 200+ years is a blink of the eye when looked at in the context of human history. So of course Americans yearn for history beyond their short one. Their ancestors lived somewhere else for thousands and thousands of years, 200 years is nothing.
3. Many Americans have a hard time identifying with what it means to “be American”

So it makes sense Americans identify with other cultures.

So I have a question, is there a such thing as an American “look”, the way there is a sort of French look or Italian look? (NO this is not an invitation for fat american jokes!!!!) You can look at most Americans and be able to tell what ancestry they’re of.

My name isnt tanja, please fix me. -the internet fairy

I agree with Johnny Munkhammar that Americans generally are proud of their family background in the old world. Still, it’s a pretty shallow concept, mostly about ethnic foods, holidays and things like that. “Compatible and neat aspects of your old country identity, those that would be appropriate for a Disney movie” (comment #30) pretty much nails it. If anything, Americans are American nationalists. (The shiny city on the hill; that whole American exceptionalism thing.)

Markku,

If you think it’s only blacks that feel discriminated against in the US, you really need to do some reading (Hispanic Americans – Asian Americans). You also need to check your history. Slavery ended a long time ago but the blacks didn’t have civil rights until 50 years ago.

I liked the comment 35 by giustino, funny guy!

The idea was batted around Parliament that people should start calling themselves, British Arabs; for intstance. In America people often take note of where they come from by saying something like: I’m Italian American. Heritage and Ethnicity are important, but; isn’t it important that you know who you are and have a well developed sense of where you come from? No matter who you are and where you live, it’s what’s inside that counts.

Referring the original post:
Both of my parents are refugees of 2nd WW, evakko’s, as we say.
Moved here while being just kids. Alright, for years ago I overheard a conversation where couple villagemen suspected me and my bro’s were fishing without a license. Well, they were right about that but the argument was, like, “even the local people wouldn’t dare”.
So my grandparents moved here some sixty years ago, I’m born here, but still I’m not a “local people”.
And there’s less than 200km from here to the place my mom used to live before war.
So that Munkhammar guy has a point saying it’s not easy to blend in atleast here, but the change is gonna come. I believe that my kids are already as local as anybody here.
And surely there is even worse middle-of-nowhere-dead-end-villages in U.S.