insulting = wrong

Rioting = Very very Wrong

I wonder if the National Bureau of Investigation has heard about Finland for Thought or Markus Jansson yet?
http://www.markusjansson.net/insult.html

Let’s help them!
http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/krp/home.nsf/feedback?openform&fin

Imagine if Tarja Halonen got insulted everytime someone said something critical about her!

This will just push Finnish sites “Offshore.”

This is yet another reason to post anonymously……

This world is sick! That’s all I can say… All everyone wants to do is fight and have wars.

“This world is sick! That’s all I can say… All everyone wants to do is fight and have wars.”

Not my comment! Damn this comment bug.

We have discussed here how America influences Finnish culture and Sweden influences Finnish legislation and party politics. There is also German and Russian influence and tradition, for example in the Finnish army and the Finnish secret police SuPo.

SuPo does not have resources to work globally, but they certainly follow foreigners and especially politically active foreigners here.
Nokia Corp has strategic importance to Finland.

Someone may knock on somebody´s door sooner or later…

Soon they will start tracking down all the websites which have a link to a website with the caricatures. After that they will hunt down all the people who even saw these caricatures. The fact is that the more we are talking about this, the more people will want to see the pictures themselves. It’s completely natural to be curious to see what people are talking about.

Not my comment! Damn this comment bug.

Try registering – http://www.finlandforthought.net/wp-register.php – that might help till I fix it.

comment bug has something to do with cookies

Well, this is of course just an investication. It seems to be highly inpropable that it would lead to any actions.

I came across this blog by accident when someone posted the url in irc as a good source for Conan O’Brien stuff for bored Finns living outside Finland. Then I took a closer look at the other stuff here and hey, it’s mostly the opposite of what I think. Good start.

There’s something here though no-one seems to have mentioned. Finnish law deals with religion in a certain way. The publication of the cartoons by a nationalist group (okay, we all know they’re mostly a bunch of racist twats) might well be proven to have been done trying to insult a religious group. Now that would be illegal.

Mainly it depends how stupid the suomensisu guys are when they explain their motives. (The famous case for reference here would the guy from Jyväskylä who got away with it by claiming that by ‘God’ he meant a pink elephant or something of the sort.) In any case, considering the law, there is a case to investigate here very clearly. (It’s another matter then to discuss the merits of the law in question.)

Oh, another thing. Memory seems to be so short. It hasn’t even been 40 years since Salama was convicted of blasphemy and suddenly everyone’s determined we live in a very secular society.

Well, I registered but never got an email?

Oh, might as well give my reference for that. The law in question can be found from finlex.fi (Rikoslaki, luku 17, pykälä 10: Uskonrauhan rikkominen). Don’t know where one could find it in English, if there is a translation.

If they come knocking I’ll join the march for freedom.

Well, I registered but never got an email?

Same problem here, and the forgot-my-password-thingy doesn’t seem to help either.

As for the actual issue, it’s still good to keep in mind, that the police has only started an investigation to see, if the publishing of those images might be against the law. Nobody has been arrested yet and also no websites have been taken down.

As for Supo, they actually were the first ones to say that this doesn’t really concern them and that the possible investigation should be conducted by the NBI. Could it be possible, that they have actually learned something from that Kavkaz Center mess some time ago? As you probably remember, back then Supo acted pretty much in the same way as their Swedish equivalent Säpo did now, i.e. contacted the hosting service provider.

I have said it so many times that there’s really no point in repeating, why I don’t think that the publication of those images was a good desicion in the first place even though the paper had every right to do so.

Still, I can’t really understand what Tuomioja is trying achieve with his letter to newspapers in Muslim countries:

“From the Finnish perspective, a country where no pictures so far – to my great satisfaction – have been published in newspapers, I would like to emphasise that intentionally hurting the religious feelings of anyone is unwise and deplorable”, Tuomioja writes.

Somehow that ends up sounding a bit like those Nestlé ads that were published in newspapers in the Middle East – you know, the “were not Danish, did you get it, not form Denmark, as Denmark is bad” kind. A cheap shot, or at least that’s the first thought that crossed my mind after reading that. The idea about increasing dialogue between the EU and the Muslim world on the other hand, is of course a good thing.

I don’t understand how putting cartoons that have been at least partly responsible for a great deal of unrest and such around the world is equivalent to ‘freedom of speech.’ Maybe I didn’t watch enough Beavis and Butthead.

Firstly, anyone who is familiar with the group who posted the pictures on their website and know what they stand for can pretty much say, they posted them to insult the religion. They are your typical racist imbecils. It’s not to protect freedom of speach. They just want an excuse to insult anyone who’s not a WASP. In my opinion, Kudos for the cops that they wont sit by idle while they spew out their racist beliefs.

Secondly, I think Tuomioja was smart to send that letter. Yet again ppl seem to concentrate on certain phrases in the letter rather then the whole context. A dialogue needs to be opened and I’m happy we have ppl in Finland who aren’t afraid to speak their mind. Should we just sit by and hope it all blows over?

Well one might note that there’s nothing particularly exceptional about the investigation, I’m under the impression that most cases the police deals with in Finland are grannies complaining about sites that are rude to Jesus and that sort of thing.

The cartoons themselves, as far as I’ve understood, are not banned in Finland, and I thought YLE showed some of them in the news (correct me if I’m wrong). Besides, anyone who really wants to see them can find them just by googling a bit.

That’s not really important, more important is for what purpose they’re published. Now in the case of the right-wing famously xenophobic Jyllands-Posten the freedom of speech argument can still be applied, albeit in my case grudgingly. I’m not for censorship, but that doesn’t mean I have to like vulgarity.

When it comes to a small Finnish group like suomensisu I think that while it’s perfectly justified to investigate them, because they did in fact do it to insult, it’s also regrettable because as a result a marginal racist and not-too-bright group formerly unknown to the general public gets all this publicity.

actually, too bad phil had to jump on the finnish fascist bandwagon. phil, suomen sisu hates you for the fact that you have stolen a finnish woman from them, potentially diluting their “master race”. they haven’t actually made a claim to being the “master race” but holy shit man, read their website. phil, you are a benefit sucking jobstealing racemixer in their eyes if you read between the lines. “right” is not always right. as a side note, i just saw on the news that tarja doesn’t approve of the suomensisu publication of the cartoons either. funny, they didn’t say anything about finland for thought. maybe they just assume this sight is published in the u.s. perhaps, technically it is?

I don’t understand how putting cartoons that have been at least partly responsible for a great deal of unrest and such around the world is equivalent to ‘freedom of speech.’

Elaine, you still think this is about the cartoons? Yes yes, because just a couple weeks ago, before the world discovered this cartoon issue, the Middle East was at peace. There was no war, no hatred. The Muslims were busy with their hectic lives going to work, prayer, and holiday. …..then the cartoons came and fucked up everything!!!! NOOO!!!!!!! [bomb sound] [explosion]

phil, you are a benefit sucking jobstealing racemixer in their eyes

And proud of it!!

What you see here Phil, is the attitude of people from a small country, who are very afraid to offend anyone. Finns, especially the educated ones, tend to be very easily covinced that they should appease others.

Being married to American, having spent a lot of time in the states, I know that most Americans are completely opposite. Average american citizen wants to feel that they really are free to say what ever they want. In Finland, people choose to self censor.

When you do not (self cencor), they feel it on their own skin. They think you are putting them to risk..

That is why you see those “lets snitch this bitch” links to poliisi.

In private though, they probably hate muslims just as much (or even more) than most Americans. Since Finns really are not multicultural nation! The reactions I saw on Suomi24 boards when the cartoon thing broke, were WORSE, than Ive seen on American boards..

God I am missing the southern spring..

Magnolias blooming..

Time to start burning NHL flags

http://www.nhl.com/scores/recaps/3_9_recap.html

“Jokinen got things started with a power-play goal late in the first period, and then added another in the second when the Swedes scored four times to grab a 5-0 lead against Martin Gerber.”

Those of you who speak Finnish, check out Hesari’s editorial and also the Heikki Aittokoski’s column Anteeksi on page B1 of todays paper (16.2.2006). They summon it up quite nicely.

Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that you have to publish anything, but on the other hand there’s no point in apologizing for the content of some tiny extremist Mickey Mouse homepage.

Since Phil doesn’t allow for a trackback, I have to tack my link to his blog directly.

http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2006/02/when-will-buffoonery-end.html

Regardless of the background of the group in question, they have posted their reasonings for posting the pictures. Nothing more can be done. I once more return to the point that this whole brouhaha has been highly orchestrated from the very beginning, and that the actions of the Danish Muslim leadership are greatly responsible for exporting a domestic issue, that should have remained a domestic issue.

The same clown Imam who is a Palestinian, who said in English that he’s sad over the boycott of Danish goods, is on record in Arabic abroad as being joyous over the boycott. If legally possibly, his butt should be exported abroad as well, for inciting violence towards his host country. KGS

What you see here Phil, is the attitude of people from a small country, who are very afraid to offend anyone. Finns, especially the educated ones, tend to be very easily covinced that they should appease others.

That reminds me of how I was once called “an appeaser” by a British conservative (the sort who think Thatcher should rot in hell for agreeing to the single market). At the time I had absolutely no idea it was meant to be an insult. I did not possess the logic with which I might have understood that as a negative term.

I realise the logic now, but I still don’t like the arrogance of it very much.

Furthermore, I think there are quite enough people in forums just like Suomi24 demanding that we attack the Arab countries (yes, all of them) immediately and that islam is just somehow vicious and perverse by nature.

Come on Anna,

When you look at all of the evidence, you will see an agenda by a radical Islamist (Palestinian) Imam, who KNEW what he was doing from the very beginning. He KNEW what would follow if he exported the complaint abroad, how the Muslims of the ME would react, as well as the controlled societies of Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran would use it to their best abilities. The burning of the embassies was just an added plus in Laban’s book.

What should have remained a domestic issue handled through the Jyllands-Posten op-ed section and through meetings with its EIC, should have ended it. They were given ample space in the paper’s op-ed columns but that didn’t suffice….it was never would, because they had biiger aims.

This whole issue is blown out of proportion and on purpose, to help secure an elevated status for Islam in a European country, now greater area to start from than a liberal democratic society, that is cowered into submission. Hell, Finland caved in much easier than expected.

What’s going to happen now, is that NO criticism of Islam will ever be allowed, because the politicians will fear a backlash from the international Islamic Ummah. Moderates in Islam will not get the backing they need in order to bring up the necessary debate needed, for they realize they will be left dangeling in the wind.

As it stands right now, most of Scandanvia is scared S–tless of the Islamic world, just like the Christian ‘Dhimmi’ populations scattered throughout the ME. Its a sad day for moderate Muslims who are just as disapointed with the Islamist victory as I am.
KGS

14:Don’t know where one could find it in English, if there is a translation.

In Finlex, if you look a bit closer.

What’s going to happen now, is that NO criticism of Islam will ever be allowed, because the politicians will fear a backlash from the international Islamic Ummah. Moderates in Islam will not get the backing they need in order to bring up the necessary debate needed, for they realize they will be left dangeling in the wind.

Oh come on, what planet are you living on? There is a difference between critism and intentionally hurting someone’s religious beliefs. Even many moderates have disliked the publication of those cartoons and the editorial policy of the consevative newspaper Jyllands-Posten that has supported the strong immigration policies of the current Danish government.

I agree with you on the fact that this issue should have been handled inside Denmark and that it was very irresponsible of Abu Laban, or whatever his name was, to make the effort of spreading at leats partially misleading information in the Muslim world. At the same time it’s important to remember that bad judgement isn’t a monopoly of any side. Mistakes have been made during the years in Denmark and other countries where many immgrants have trouble finding jobs etc.

Most people must agree by now that all of this has really little to do with the publication of a few cartoons. Instead it’s the outcome of a wide range of problematical issues that have been boiling under the surface for a long period of time. That said it’s probably true taht this could lead to a certain amount of self-cencorship at least regarding cartoons of this nature.

That doesn’t however, in my opinion, automatically lead to wider cencorship in journalism. Matters regarding Islam will be discussed as they have been in the past, and the same goes for the Muslim world, human rights and religion as such. There will always be disagreements and different opinions, that’s for sure, but to say that this episode would lead into a situation where something would become a banned subject is complete nonsense.

Scandinavia, or rather the Nordic countries that even Finland is a part of, are not scared shitless. The extremists or Islamists or whoever have not won as the amount of freedom of speech is simply not determined on the grounds of who went and published a few cartoons and who didn’t. Anyone who tells you otherwise is obviously taking all of this way too seriously.

When you look at all of the evidence, you will see an agenda by a radical Islamist (Palestinian) Imam, who KNEW what he was doing from the very beginning. He KNEW what would follow if he exported the complaint abroad, how the Muslims of the ME would react, as well as the controlled societies of Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran would use it to their best abilities. The burning of the embassies was just an added plus in Laban’s book.

Well I haven’t at any point believed that the cartoons were really the issue here. I’m not an expert on Islam or the Middle East, but it is my understanding that most of the (violent) reaction has come from poor, uneducated and largely illiterate populations. It is clear from this that the whole thing is orchestrated, but to serve whose interests in the end, I’m not sure. What seems to be happening is that both extreme right groups in the West and extreme islamist groups in the Middle East are the main beneficiaries.

As it stands right now, most of Scandanvia is scared S–tless of the Islamic world, just like the Christian ‘Dhimmi’ populations scattered throughout the ME. Its a sad day for moderate Muslims who are just as disapointed with the Islamist victory as I am.
KGS

I don’t think there is a tradition for verbal abuse of any religion in Finland or the rest of Scandinavia. In this sense one might say several religious groups enjoy an elevated status in Finland — Jehova’s witnesses and laestadians in the North serve as good examples. What is lacking in Finland, though, is a clear programme of immigrant policy. I shall leave the US out of this for now as it is a case of its own in many respects, but Finland is nowhere near any sort of arguments about ‘race relations’ (British term), or any sort of multicultural approaches (examples in Europe might be Sweden and the Netherlands), or any sort of coherent assimilation programme as can be found in France, or even a clear labour market needs based model of the German kind. Now the merits of all the above mentioned can, have been, and should be critisised, but it still remains a fact that Finland is largely just puzzled about what to do next.

Slightly off topic, perhaps. Not the best forum for discussion, either. Sorry about that

What’s going to happen now, is that NO criticism of Islam will ever be allowed, because the politicians will fear a backlash from the international Islamic Ummah.

I agree completely.

Joonas wrote:

“Most people must agree by now that all of this has really little to do with the publication of a few cartoons. Instead it’s the outcome of a wide range of problematical issues that have been boiling under the surface for a long period of time. That said it’s probably true taht this could lead to a certain amount of self-cencorship at least regarding cartoons of this nature.”

Ok Joonas, so when are we going to start “cracking down” on the atheist Finns who by droves are critisizing lutherans all around Finland? Okay? Hmm? It is not going to happen! And you know why? Because Finns are not afraid of Finns! You are never going to see the atheist Finns beginning to “self censor” themselves! They will keep on telling the religious Finns that “you are full of shit”. They have the right to do that, and you know what? I fully respect their right.

I wrote:

“What you see here Phil, is the attitude of people from a small country, who are very afraid to offend anyone. Finns, especially the educated ones, tend to be very easily covinced that they should appease others.”

Anna answered:

“That reminds me of how I was once called “an appeaser” by a British conservative (the sort who think Thatcher should rot in hell for agreeing to the single market). At the time I had absolutely no idea it was meant to be an insult. I did not possess the logic with which I might have understood that as a negative term.”

You are a appeaser Anna! And you know what, you have the right to be offended for me saying that. And you have the right to disagree. And you have the right to tell me to go f**k myself! And I totally respect your right for doing that.

I have nothing against moderate muslims who respect my rights. But when they come to my country telling me what I can do, and what I can not.. You know what? IT PISSES ME OFF. And you know what, as long as I am just pissed off and I do not take a gun and go out there and kill them. I have right to be pissed off!

I have the right to be pissed off about that morning I woke up to turn on MSNBC and I saw that first twin tower smoking. People hysterically explaining that a plane flew in to it. I have a right to be pissed off, because when those towers fell. Almost 3000 people died.

A lot of these fundamental muslims basically jerk off to those tapes. They loved to see them fall. So where can I call about that? Can we demonstrate in Helsinki? Can we bring back those 3000 people whose death started this all?

Anna and Joonas, if you guys ever fly to America. Next time, when you are near New York, for a moment, let your imgination see the terrorists yodling in Arabic “God is great” as the babies cry and people write their last wishes on a piece of paper. Imagine the people on those towers. A lot of them liberals I am sure. A lot of them appeasers I am sure. Even muslims! Imagine them all dying. Keep that thought in your mind. Then look at those pesky cartoons.

Mohammed with a bomb in his hat? How far off is that? In the name of Islam, what has been happening lately? A lot of bombs have been going off in crowds of innocent people. I think a toon of mohammed with bomb in his hat nails that perfectly. At the same time, muslims / us draw toons of war crazed Bush. If muslims want their image changed, STOP BLOWING UP THOSE BOMBS. If Bush wants his image changed. Ditto.

Still to Anna.. You DO know why brits have a bad rap for appeasers? Do not you? You DO know about that meeting with Neville Chamberlain and Hitler? Good ole Neville coming home with a piece of paper, as if Brits had dodged the bullet of war.

We are living very similar days to 1938. This time, the nazis are called fundamental muslims and instead of idealogy, it is the religions that are clashing, and instead of being confined to any single nation, it happens everywhere where those religions are present.

Little wonder brits and Americans do not want to appease them, they remember what happened the last time! And little wonder people are so afraid! they are afraid of bombs going off in their local malls!

But ask yourself Anna, would you be ready to give off your hard fought rights, or the rights of your daughter. Just to appease? Are you ready to start giving special rights to foreigners in our country? Rights that even us Finns do not seem to have? Rights to be beyond critisism. Protected by hogwash and fear.

End of rant.

I disagree.

The decision of the Jyllands-Posten to publish those cartoons was implicitly meant not to offend but to see what kind of self censorship has developed in Denmark to the rise of Islamism. The fact that an author of a book had difficulty in finding a cartoonist in the first place, raised the paper’s editorial staff’s curiosity.

It wasn’t out of spite or malicious intent, period. Saying otherwise is just putting words into the mouths of the those responsible for the running of the paper, who have maintained all along their intentions. The fact that they opened up their paper’s op-ed section to those who were offended should have ended the matter.

I also disagree with you about the ramifications of the Islamist victory in Denmark, who have managed to implement a damaging boycott of Danish products throughout the ME. As a dairy exporter to the ME, Arla is finished, and Valio is now seeking to fill the void left by the Danes. It might explain Vanhanen’s nonsensical overtures to the Islamic world with his recent groveling from Torino.

If some simple pictures are enough to get the Danish Islamists going, what will happen if a Muslim commissions a work of art called the Queer Mohamed? Or a non-Islamist Muslim questions Mohamed’s existence entirely?

Do you actually believe that an atheist can declare the Quran a work of fiction, make a play about it and see his civil liberties properly defended in a Europe that is calling for the re-introduction of blasphemy laws..?

What if artists want to depict the prophet as a gay man in pink tights kissing Salmon Rushdie? Is that artists rights going to be protected, as well as the local Islamists being told to slogg off? Do you think that with the recent Islamist victory over the cartoons, they will not try to do it again?

Come on, Joonas, there are moderate Muslims like Irshad Manji who think the very same way, that the pictures are hardly worth discussing , when its an intolerant religion being proffered by the Islamists, whose mainstream guardians of the faith won’t even allow non-Muslims entrance into Mecca, while Rome is freely open to non-Christians and Jerusalem is open to non-Jews. In light of that, Muslims have more to worry about that pictures.

Besides, Islamic law nor its Quran explicitly forbids the picture of Mohamed, with the Shiia’ freely drawing his grandson Ali. Hypocrisy abounds in this whole deal, and as I see it, the situation has been exploited by Islamists who want an elevated status for Islam in a liberal Europe.

With Abu Laban’s clear Islamist radical ties, along with his actions, you are going to have allot more info to prove otherwise.

KGS

You are a appeaser Anna!

I didn’t tell you why he called me that.

As to the rest of your rant, I refrain from commenting.

Jehovah Witnesses and Lestadilaiset do not demand special laws that shield themselves from criticism and scrutiny. They do not have an agenda to ‘by hook or crook’, create a seventh century ‘caliphate’ stretching from one region of influence to the other. Neither do they seek to spread any agenda by violence or by fear of violence.

Neither do they subject their women folk to remain indoors, and submit to the whims of the menfolk, nor does their religion allow for ‘honor killing’ when their family members stray from the faith.

All of the above is found within the radical Islamist circles, who would like nothing better in seeing their own fellow co-religionists, moderates and opastates, as well as the infidels towing the line.

In Britian, its gotten so bad, that even a Bitish firm created a policy that barred any image of a pig within the companies office space. Pigglet was barred and sent packing.

What is important for us all, is that when we talk of respect and tolerance, we assume it is mutual. When a nation has to change itself to suit the needs of immigrants, then a line is crossed.

For example:

If a Muslim women objects to her daughter being taught to swim by a male teacher, then a female should then be made available. But if the woman demands that the teacher be a Muslim, then the line has been crossed.

KGS

“”

Please, it’s much more complex than that.

I think that if people weren’t always so sure of themselves being right, all of this bullshit would be avoided. I think that people who really think they have objective truths figured out are dangerous.

I was trying to quote Finn married to an American’s rant above.

“All of the above is found within the radical Islamist circles, who would like nothing better in seeing their own fellow co-religionists, moderates and opastates, as well as the infidels towing the line.”

All of the above is also found within the radical christian circles.

You problem is with radicals, not with islam.

Jehovah Witnesses and Lestadilaiset do not demand special laws that shield themselves from criticism and scrutiny.

I wasn’t actually trying to compare these religious groups to Islam in terms of either content or methods. I was merely stating that they do ha a special status in Finland. Most famously of course, the Jehova guys are exempt from military service. In the Northern Ostrobothnian region dominated by the Laestadian movement (which there peculiarly often equates to the Centre Party) public discourse and the media have adopted an approach of self-censorship in the matter.

Neither do they subject their women folk to remain indoors, and submit to the whims of the menfolk

I do not fool myself about how cruel radical/conservative Islam is about this compared to our standards, but one thing I have to observe: given that a traditional hobby of the Finnish man is to regularly beat the wife it sometimes seems that the problem here is religion in general and not one particular religion. This line of thought could be developed further into the interesting and quite controversial idea of western secularism, but I’ll leave it. (Note here, btw, that I’m not defending any religion. There seemed to be a misconception of that earlier.)

i>When a nation has to change itself to suit the needs of immigrants, then a line is crossed.

Provided a suitable arena is found, I would be willing to discuss what that line is.

For now I’m just saying that while there are serious problems caused by immigration (security issues, social cohesion, that sort of thing), the fact of the matter is that immigrants, and vast amounts of them, are. There isn’t really anything to be done to change that.
Therefore it would be advisable to come up with ideas on what to do with them. (And “send them all back” isn’t one of the realistic options.)

Mmh, this was meant to be a quote in there:

When a nation has to change itself to suit the needs of immigrants, then a line is crossed.

My apologies.

Finn marrid to American:
Ok Joonas, so when are we going to start “cracking down” on the atheist Finns who by droves are critisizing lutherans all around Finland? Okay? Hmm? It is not going to happen! And you know why? Because Finns are not afraid of Finns! You are never going to see the atheist Finns beginning to “self censor” themselves! They will keep on telling the religious Finns that “you are full of shit”. They have the right to do that, and you know what? I fully respect their right.

Thanks for fully respecting my right to be a dumbass then. I said absolutely nothing about cracking down on crtisism of religion. I only agreed that this might affect the media industry so that they could start being extra coucious with cartoons, even though by now everyone must understand that all of this had really little to do with them in the first place. I didn’t say it was a good thing or in any way support it, or the angry mobs in the Middle East or anything of the sort – I simply pointed out that this might have that affect.

I have nothing against moderate muslims who respect my rights. But when they come to my country telling me what I can do, and what I can not.. You know what? IT PISSES ME OFF. And you know what, as long as I am just pissed off and I do not take a gun and go out there and kill them. I have right to be pissed off!

Absolutely, there’s no question. You have the right to like or dislike anyone. The problem with saying something like I have nothing against moderate muslims who respect my rights however is a bit problematic, as by saying so you actually imply that most Muslims don’t respect your rights. I would argue that most of them actually do – or at least do like you and choose to keep their opinions as their own instead of acting upon them.

The wider problem is that we are so used to seing Muslims demonstrating in the Middle East on our TV screens that it’s really simple to forget that a majority of them aren’t doing so. This same goes of course for most of the stereotypical images that people have the world over.

A lot of these fundamental muslims basically jerk off to those tapes. They loved to see them fall. So where can I call about that? Can we demonstrate in Helsinki? Can we bring back those 3000 people whose death started this all?

Anna and Joonas, if you guys ever fly to America. Next time, when you are near New York, for a moment, let your imgination see the terrorists yodling in Arabic “God is great” as the babies cry and people write their last wishes on a piece of paper. Imagine the people on those towers. A lot of them liberals I am sure. A lot of them appeasers I am sure. Even muslims! Imagine them all dying. Keep that thought in your mind. Then look at those pesky cartoons.

Hey, don’t blame me for something I didn’t say.

I can still remember watching in horror how the WTC was destroyed. I was over at a friends house and we all sat glued to the TV in silence. There aren’t words to describe that and I can’t even start to imagine how horrific the situation had to be to those who were trapped in those burning buildings.

Now as for the rest, someone else already said it: You have an issue with the extremists or fundamentalists, not Muslims or Islam as such. That’s completely understandable and as far as I know, most people would totally agree with you on strongly condemning every sort of extremism.

I never said that all this endless flag/embassy burning would somehow be an justified answer to a few cartoons. No. What I meant was that the paper had every right to publish them but that it was unnecessary. The point could have been made in a different way too.

After all, if they tried to start a discussion about freedom of speech and how it relates to Islam, wouldn’t that have been a hell of a lot easier if they wouldn’t have started by pissing the other side off? After all, it’s not just the extremist fundamentalists who have disliked the publication of those images, even though they have of course been the most loudest (and flag-burniest).

If muslims want their image changed, STOP BLOWING UP THOSE BOMBS. If Bush wants his image changed. Ditto.

I totally agree. However, you have to remember that most Muslims or Americans don’t bomb anyone or even ever plan on doing so. Labelling any group of people just because of the actions of certain individuals is simply stupid. (And before anyone says anything about this: No, I wasn’t the one comparing the president of the United States to mindless terrorists.)

End of rant.

Hopefully we got these things straight.

Now I’m not sure if this was even meant for me, but what the hell…

KGS59:
The decision of the Jyllands-Posten to publish those cartoons was implicitly meant not to offend but to see what kind of self censorship has developed in Denmark to the rise of Islamism. The fact that an author of a book had difficulty in finding a cartoonist in the first place, raised the paper’s editorial staff’s curiosity.

It wasn’t out of spite or malicious intent, period. Saying otherwise is just putting words into the mouths of the those responsible for the running of the paper, who have maintained all along their intentions. The fact that they opened up their paper’s op-ed section to those who were offended should have ended the matter.

What you said is probably partially true. Nevertheless, Jyllands-Posten also had a pretty controversial reputation among many people long before all of this. I’m not going to take the time to weigh all the different reasons for that or how much certain political views have affected their reporting and what lack of time can some times cause in the busy newspaper business, but the fact is that they have had a tendency to provocate. Now, there’s absolutely nothing wrong in that per se.

Denmark is after all a very open and liberal society in the sense that they have traditionally had a high tolerance on various issues such as religion. That said its important to point out that as all people, including Danes, are individuals, some people have always got offended by something they saw as hurtful. In that sense this is nothing new even though the country as a whole has, as I said, been quite liberal about most issues.

All this doesn’t however mean that the editors of Jyllands-Posten would somehow live in a bubble, where they couldn’t possibly comprehend that cartoons of the holy prophet might in fact offend many. That should have been clear to them at least when most of the cartoonists that they asked refused to participate. So even though the main intention behind the publishing of the cartoons was probably as you said, curiosity towards a difficult issue, saying that they were never meant to insult anybody is, in my opinion, bending the truth to the opposite direction.

(As you see, it’s difficult to give a throughout explanation on a limited comment field like this…)

I also disagree with you about the ramifications of the Islamist victory in Denmark, who have managed to implement a damaging boycott of Danish products throughout the ME. As a dairy exporter to the ME, Arla is finished, and Valio is now seeking to fill the void left by the Danes. It might explain Vanhanen’s nonsensical overtures to the Islamic world with his recent groveling from Torino.

You are right on Arla and the Middle East, but do you know which part of Denmark’s total exports are directed there? As far as I know, we’re talking about only a few percent. So even if all Danish companies would end up leaving Middle Eastern markets, it still wouldn’t be enough to give some extremists there a victory. On the contrary: The demand for Danish products have probably increased in other parts of the world as a result of all those Support Denmark style campaigns and sympaty towards them. Hell, even I have started buying Danish cheese, as I don’t like the idea of blaming a whole country for some editorial desicions of one newspaper.

Do you actually believe that an atheist can declare the Quran a work of fiction, make a play about it and see his civil liberties properly defended in a Europe that is calling for the re-introduction of blasphemy laws..?

I think that blasphemy laws should be abolished. That said, I don’t see how my freedom of speech should be primarly used to ridicule the religious beliefs of others. I don’t see the point in making these cartoons a symbol of freedom simply because there are far more important aspects of freedom of speech that actually deserve to be defended.

What if artists want to depict the prophet as a gay man in pink tights kissing Salmon Rushdie? Is that artists rights going to be protected, as well as the local Islamists being told to slogg off? Do you think that with the recent Islamist victory over the cartoons, they will not try to do it again?

My answer would be that the Islamists should avoid going to the exhibition with that piece of art – and the artist shouldn’t try to get it shown at the local mosque.

Come on, Joonas, there are moderate Muslims like Irshad Manji who think the very same way, that the pictures are hardly worth discussing, when its an intolerant religion being proffered by the Islamists, whose mainstream guardians of the faith won’t even allow non-Muslims entrance into Mecca, while Rome is freely open to non-Christians and Jerusalem is open to non-Jews. In light of that, Muslims have more to worry about that pictures.

I completely agree on that these pictures aren’t worth discussing. After all, even Erkki “the slow but obvious” Tuomioja agreed that this really isn’t about the cartoons, it’s a wider issue that only bursted out as a result of them. Something would have happened sooner or later. All the more reason to question the status of these cartoons as a symbol of freedom of speech.

With Abu Laban’s clear Islamist radical ties, along with his actions, you are going to have allot more info to prove otherwise.

That remains to be seen of course. On the other hand this has also clearly demonstrated that Abu Laban or anyone else doesn’t have a monopoly over Muslims as many have also objected his radical views.

Jehovah Witnesses and Lestadilaiset do not demand special laws that shield themselves from criticism and scrutiny. They do not have an agenda to ‘by hook or crook’, create a seventh century ‘caliphate’ stretching from one region of influence to the other. Neither do they seek to spread any agenda by violence or by fear of violence.

No, but neither do the Tatars who have for the most part been followers of Islam – and lived peacefully in Finland for decades. Neither did the demonstors of the Finnish Islamic community who, in a peaceful demonstration I might add, carried signs with slogans as “Freedom of Speech YES, ridiculing the Prophets NO”. People have every right to disagree and even demonstrate as long as it’s done in a peaceful manner.

As far as I know, most blasphemy lawsuits in this country have been started by Christians and even the law, that should be abolished, was originally a Christian thing. That said, Anna or whoever it was who said that Finns don’t traditionally mock religions of others was of course right. It’s about respect, not about censorship. The desired point can be made in a different way.

In Britian, its gotten so bad, that even a Bitish firm created a policy that barred any image of a pig within the companies office space. Pigglet was barred and sent packing.

I’ve told it before, but I’ll tell it again: That same thing happened in Espoo some years back too, when someone wanted to ban pig formed concrete traffic dividers as “they are offensive to Muslims”. When the matter was investigated, it turned out that the Muslims didn’t mind those things at all. The suggestion was made by a Chtristian priest, who thought that the pig forms might be offensive to Muslims.

Now, if there’s some people who we should keep a look on, it’s those ones who assume a whole lot of thngs about others without talking to them first.

What is important for us all, is that when we talk of respect and tolerance, we assume it is mutual. When a nation has to change itself to suit the needs of immigrants, then a line is crossed.

That’s of course true to a certain degree, but what if people’s minds change during the years? Should we just lock everything as it is right now, so that no change is possible? Even history proves that way of thinking wrong. In a open democracy we simply have to find a way to manage in a way that both protects our freedoms but also looks after the needs of our various minorities.

(Oh man, I have to stop now. Too long, way too long. Sorry Phil, especially since you probably disagree at least on certain points. If I even got them in there that is. TOO long.)

‘m’ and Anna are missing the whole point entirely.

‘m’ said:
“all of the above is also found in radcial Christian circles”.

Ehhh….what? Spreading fear and fear of violence if their utopia is not accepted by the infidel? Please show me where modern day Christianity in a concerted world effort, has waged a campaign of fear and intimidation, threatening death against those who either violate their faith or refuse their faiths advancement? Nonsense.

As for any single christian fringe group or individual guilty of an outrage, their deeds are ROUNDLY condemned throughout the Christian world. Plainly speaking ‘m’, you are guilty of trying equate or balance one side with the other. Any democratic Christian/Buddhist/Shinto/Jewish society is far more tolerant than any Islamic one, especially when it uses Sharia as the basis for its common law.

As for Anna, being exempt from something does not elevate a group, but being allowed something that no other group can claim equal right to, is an elevated status. Christian society has had to endure puns and ridicule in the name of free speech, however tasteless is allowed under free speech laws. We have a right more sacred than our sensibilities to lampoon sacred cows.

The very foundation of western philosophy rests on the notion that Socrates execution for blaspheming the gods was an unjust act. As for beating ones wife, nowhere is there justification for it to be found in Christian/Jewish scriptures, nor in a liberal democratic legal system or code. The Quran does allow for a man to beat his wife, that’s a fact and its taken very literally and as a right.

I have never mentioned anything about sending immigrants back, but yes if they are not citizens, and violate the laws of the land, then they are under no entitlement (IMHO) to remain. The issue is for immigrants (myself included) to realize the society in which they live is built on tolerance, and that that tolerance is a two way street.

Civil liberties are not to be toyed with and restricted because a group (any group, Christian or otherwise) is offended. The power of the pen works both ways.

KGS

We have a right more sacred than our sensibilities to lampoon sacred cows.

Ah I think here we find the source of our disagreement. I don’t consider any right sacred. (Which does not mean I’m against freedom of speech.)

The very foundation of western philosophy rests on the notion that Socrates execution for blaspheming the gods was an unjust act.

Heh, the very foundation of western philosophy usually lies in the notion most convenient for the argument.

First of all Joonas, I have maintained from the very beginning that the key issue has been the actions of the Danish Muslim leadership, not the issue of the printing of he cartoons, which is contrary to how this whole farce has been reported.

Regardless of how the Jyllands-Posten has been running its newspaper, its the legal system that handles such matters if a law has been broken. Obviously none have. I do not read Danish, so I would have to be privy to expert opinions on the JP’s news style, but again, it has not been my focus, the Danish Muslim leadership has that honor.

As an immigrant from the US who is proud to live in this wonderful country called Finland, I have been witness to one form or another of Finnish snobbery and vindictiveness in its media towards the US (and towards Israel for that matter). As much as it hurts to see my country muddied in one op-ed after another, with its presidents past and present lampooned and its social system made to look like something out of a Pekka and Pätkä movie, I have not called for a boycott, nor would I ever dream of doing so. Seeing Leftist Finns in Jyväskylä burn a small US flag every day the US is in Iraq is disturbing as well…….but as a member of this society, I recognize the right to dissent, which brings me to the main point.

The fact that the local Danish Muslim leadership refused to accept the limits on what one could do and achieve in a liberal democracy, is the sole reason for what’s happening around the world, not a local issue concerning a small Danish newspaper. The fact that this Imam is an Islamist, and spread his message throughout the ME, while adding THE WORST PICTURES YET, into bag of goodies is reason enough to believe he KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING. That is the issue, not the cartoons, that was just the excuse he needed.

Also one point worth noting, why wasn’t there an outrage way back in October when a noted Egyptian paper ran the cartoons? I’ll tell ya, there wasn’t yet a campaign behind it to light the fires, obviously local Egyptians might have been miffed, but no initifada erupted, nothing at all. KGS

For Joonas about the Danish Imam:
http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2006/02/islamist-imams-ties-to-his-islamist.html

As for Anna, such a cavalier attitude towards free speech and the act of defiance of Socrates, I guess you would have been one of the judges turning the thumb downwards. KGS

s for Anna, such a cavalier attitude towards free speech and the act of defiance of Socrates, I guess you would have been one of the judges turning the thumb downwards. KGS

Why on earth would you assume that from what I said? I’m sorry, I don’t follow.

“Please show me where modern day Christianity in a concerted world effort, has waged a campaign of fear and intimidation, threatening death against those who either violate their faith or refuse their faiths advancement? Nonsense.”

Please show me where modern day Islam in a concerted world effort, has waged a campaign of fear and intimidation, threatening death against those who either violate their faith or refuse their faiths advancement? Nonsense.

duh forgot my name

M wrote:

“Please show me where modern day Islam in a concerted world effort, has waged a campaign of fear and intimidation, threatening death against those who either violate their faith or refuse their faiths advancement? Nonsense.”

Write a book or make a movie about the evils of Islam and tell me how it went.

Oh, by the way, write your last will and testament before you do it.

Because you know, uhmm.. They might kill you.

You don’t seriously think that thouse murdering bigots have anything to do with the great majority of muslims?

Do you even realize how racist your views are?

Good Comment Finn ‘MTA’, ”They might kill you”.

I am waiting on how this is received throughout the ME.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/2/15/161238.shtml?s=et

KGS

Interesting comment by ‘m’ concering FMTA’ last post. Clealry the emphasis (I speak for myself)has always been on the leadership within the Islamic world, who either
1.)promote a violent agenda
2.)or more importantly remain silent
3.)or condemning violence, but only because Muslims are endangered
4.)or condemning terrorism, but only because Muslims are endangered
5.)supplying support and logistics to Islamists and Islamist groups such as the Hamas ect.

Saudi Arabia is the chief exporter of extremism and is chiefly responsible for formenting the latest trouble in the ME with the Danish cartoons. They used it to once again prove to the rest of the Ummah, that as caretakers of the faith, they are doing something to protect it against the Christian/Westeren world. Its not by accident that Israel (with nothing to do with the issue) is being used as the traditional scapegoat as well.

A case study was done in the US to determine what type of literature was being promoted within Muslim religious groups and Mosques. Much of what was uncovered came from Saudi Arabia, Wahhabist in origin and highly anti-western in tone. When it comes to formenting extremism, the House of Saud is a good place to start. They have funded midrashas and mosques throughout the world, and along with it intolerant Wahhabist dogma. I cannot blame local everday Mom and Pop Muslims for having a warped outlook about the world they live in, when they are being given a heavy dose of anti-Western/Israel vitriol and vectum day in and day out.

When one takes into account the amount of people who support these Islamists throughout the Islamic world, the number is staggering, being in the millions. The emphasis however, is always on the leadership, they set the tone within their congregations. Even in Sweden’s: http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2005/09/double-messages-at-swedish-mosque.html

The effect of Islamic radicalization in Sweden is a fact, and speaks badly for it leadership: http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2005/09/jihad-comes-to-sweden.html

The tiny Tartar community here in Finland offers GREAT hope for Islam to become what Muslims wish it to be. The Tartars have shown the ability to adapt to western ways while maintianing their own religious cultural identity. They are the hope for the future. KGS

First of all Joonas, I have maintained from the very beginning that the key issue has been the actions of the Danish Muslim leadership, not the issue of the printing of he cartoons, which is contrary to how this whole farce has been reported.

Actually I have brought that up as well in some of my previous comments regarding this issue. It still bothers me that I didn’t see the entire HARDtalk show with Abu Laban and Flemming Rose on BBC World as that was one of the key issues they seemed to be talking about.

Regardless of how the Jyllands-Posten has been running its newspaper, its the legal system that handles such matters if a law has been broken.

I totally agree with that and have previously said it myself as well. Then again, people have a right to disagree or even get angry for stuff that isn’t illegal – as long as they don’t result to violence etc.

My main point has always been that even though this should have been kept as a domestic issue in Denmark, and even though it was utterly irresponsible of Abu Laban to go and market this issue in the Muslim world, it’s still far too simple to say that all of this just happened because of the cartoons or the fact that certain people went and marketed them in a certain way.

What I meant, was that the conflict between different views, religions, cultures etc. is far too complicated to be explained in simplistic terminology that blames one party for everything. This is just the outcome of a wide range of issues that have been bubbling under the surface for decades. Some of the issues are justified, others not but one thing is for sure: Mistakes have been made on all sides of the argument and if we want to even try to fix it, no one can proclaim himself as the winner.

Or something like that, you probably get it. As for those people who burn American flags in Jyväskylä, I think the quote from a moderate Muslim talking to Helsingin Sanomat some times ago summons it up quite nicely: “There are dumb Arabs and there are dumb Danes.” Well put.

Joonas,

For the most part, I am in agreement with you. But I am still unconvinced about how this whole brouhaha got going and who is ultimately responsible. IMHO, its not simplistic to point to the agitators who KNEW what would happen if they exported the issue abroad, while supplying extra material of their own to ensure its success. Again, the three inserted pictures that Imam Abu Laban took with him were highly inflammatory and were chosen for that reason alone.

The mistakes that were made, IMHO, were in thinking that an Islamist would not use any opportunity to further an Islamist agenda. Only after the meeting of OIC (Organization of Islamic Conferences)some months later did the pictures get attention. Like I said, they had already been published in a premier Egyptian newspaper back in Oct. of last year, with no eruption of violence.

The violence started only when the call for it was approved. The way it was done proves it was highly orchestrated, the mayhem that ensued…was left to the natural forces of rage. I doubt that the majority of the Islamic world even saw the pictures, just heard what was supposedly printed and why.

KGS

Okay, since I’m obviously not getting an answer I might just as well clarify my position on rights. I stated I don’t consider any right sacred (and that would include freedom of speech). I also stated this does not mean I’m against freedom of speech. From this, I gather someone concluded that had I lived approximately 2400 years ago I would have condemned a man to death, which surprised me since I mentioned absolutely nothing about the death penalty, let alone saying I’d be for it. I wonder if my scribblings have actually been read at all.

Now, back to rights being sacred. That is the logical mistake liberals often adopt into their thinking for some reason. In order for a right to be “sacred” (universal, automatic, independent of human action) there at some point needs to be some sort of a god who has granted it. Now, I’m not a religious person at all, therefore it would be intellectually dishonest for me to have such an approach to rights.

This does not mean I would not consider some rights highly important, it only means I consider a right to be an abstract human construction.

Anna,

I said: “western philosophy is founded on the notion that the execution of Socrates for blasheming the gods, to have been an unjust act”

I also said that we have a right ‘more sacred’ than our sensabilities, to lampoon sacred cows.

OK, exchange ‘sacred’ for untouchable/unassailable. I undestood you to mean that freedom of speech was not to be considered as one of the highest of guarded rights.

Along with your statement: “most convenient for the argument”, lead me to think you didn’t agree with the unjustness of Socrates’ execution. If you say I misunderstood you, then ok. KGS

KGS wrote:

Along with your statement: “most convenient for the argument”, lead me to think you didn’t agree with the unjustness of Socrates’ execution. If you say I misunderstood you, then ok.

I find it hard to pinpoint some exact event or person or idea that could be labelled as the foundation of Western philosophy. By ‘most convenient for the argument’ I merely meant that depending on the context you might just as well claim that Western philosopy is ultimately founded on the Aristotelian view that insects are born from mud, the Christian view that women have no soul, or perhaps you would choose to emphasise Renaissance humanism or the Scientific Revolution, then again you might conclude that most philosophical thought today is derived from the Enlightenment, and of course — my personal favourite because you can use this to justify just about everything — you could just assert that it all goes back to the French Revolution.

I do not mean to undermine Socrates, so don’t get the wrong idea. Freedom of speech is a modern standard, and as a Western person I cannot deny I hold it to be to some extent untouchable. But I doubt this argument would have enjoyed much popularity amongst the Athenians trying to come up with an excuse to their incompetence in the Peloponnesian war. Hindsight is always such a wonderful thing.

KGS: While I agree in principle with where you are going, I have one slight problem with your remark above, namely “IMHO, its not simplistic to point to the agitators who KNEW what would happen if they exported the issue abroad, while supplying extra material of their own to ensure its success.”

I agree on the latter part – the story was clearly “sexed-up” like a certain report on WMD not so very long ago – but I query your assertion that perhaps it should not have been taken abroad and offered to the wider world. It carries with it a rather sinister undertone that perhaps if this had been kept in the Danish family – who understands Danish anyway? – all would have been well, and makes me wonder if you would argue in exactly the same way if, for instance, someone were to take some of the more vitriolic comments on here and publish them, say, in the United States or alternatively make them freely available (in Finnish) to the Finnish population at large.

The fact that the cartoons were “only” in a Danish newspaper, or that vitriolic and highly outspoken comments are placed “only” on an obscure Libertarian blog in a remote corner of the Internet should not be relevant. We know very well how fast information travels, and how easy the Chinese Whispers game is to play. The writers should have had a global sense of responsibility, and have been prepared for the possible fall-out when their words or images met people who did not agree with them, and after the story had passed through many hands. If people had that greater sense of responsibility about what they write or say, freedom of expression might be an easier fortress to defend.

Well, to whomever I am now addressing(the names change here faster than the server), the only thing sinister I can summon from the whole scenario, is the contempt by local the Muslim leadership, for the Danish system.

1.)Actually thinking that the Danish government could intervene and punish an editorial staff in a newspaper. That is not in dispute, it indeed happened that way.

2.)Not being satisified with the only response the Danish gov’t could respond with, they sought international help from the embassies in Copenhagen. The response by the Danish gov’t couldn’t have been any different to the ambassadors, whose supposed visit was to seek the same response sought by the Palestinian Danish Imam.

3.)The offending cartoons were publish in both Egypt last October and in Jordan last November, with NO international outburst.

4.)The outraged Imam and company travels abroad with more offensive pictures than the original twelve, and is granted audiance at the OIC (Organization of Islmaic Conferences) and dissiminates his highly flawed reasoning along with the photos and obfuscations.

5.)This Islamist Imam has close contacts within the other Islamist firebrands like ‘Hamza the Hook’ in Lo´ndon who was just found guilty in being an accomplice in the London bombings, having entertained the the ‘Hook’ at his home.

Please, just how can you NOT think that this Imam is not guilty of planning the sudden ‘spontaneousness’ of this international outrage?
As for allowing anyone to decide for us what to and what not to print…….that is pure buffoonery to the umpteenth degree. The only thing positive here, is that maybe, just maybe the soft headed liberal intellectuals will wake up and smell the tahina, and not let hard won freedoms slip through the same door you appear so willing to let open.
KGS

As its my faith (or elements therein) that is the focus of this kerfuffle let me endeavour to make this board a little more representative. Cartoons? Hmm? I dont give a fuck. Most people, dont give a fuck.I would see and hear worse in a pub in Grimsby.

The millions and millions who failed to set fire to flags and consulates have the right not to be lumped in with those hundreds that did. Such flagrantly orchestrated demonstrations serve no purpose in guaging the feelings of the majority.

Have you noticed how the demonstrations in Pakistan have only really started in the last couple of days? A state visit coming up is there?It’s political manoeuvering of the worst kind because it’s the average person that loses.

Freedom of speech being eroded by muslims. What absolute rubbish. If we muslims are unable to stop the US and various European countries from INVADING us from time to time how will we ever hold anything over your press? I’ll tell you what does limit freedom of speech, a cruise missile to the head. It’s a fucker for censoring people.

Idiots in the Middle East and Asia performing like circus acts. Rattle my cage and I’ll burn a flag. Works for you I suppose. Nice easy image to digest. Well dont be surprised when many muslims get their nice easy images from G W Bush speeches and pictures of bombed kids in Iraq.

Propaganda? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

9/11. A terrorist attack like no other. It will be paid for with the blood of innocent people forever and ever amen.

Toodle Pip

Hi Mr / Ms Toodle pip..

I hope there will be a day when we can put this all behind us and see Christians and muslims hugging each other on the streets. Hopefully that love fest would include all the other people too, including the jews.

Maybe someone should organize such a day, people of different religions and atheists Marching together for peace, for humanity.

It’s about time that whites started to realize that they can’t be blamed for everything going wrong on the planet! If we help or don’t help non-whites, we’re hated for it!

I fully agree that everyone has the right to life, but why the hell should we put up with people coming to our countries, (and yes, I say, “our countries”) who just come to change everything?!

They don’t do that? Hmm, why is it then in the UK certain towns have stopped putting up Christmas decorations just because 70%+ of them are non-white?! Why is it that here in Finland that childcare places have stopped celebrating Christmas just because there are some Muslims in the group?

It’s about time we stopped bending over for these people trying to help them out in our own countries just for them to laugh at us! Send every damn one of them back to where they came from and then show them how to farm correctly and clean water and that’s it. Politics and religion, fine, keep that out of it. If they want to kill each other that’s their problem. Don’t send weapons to either side.

Northern Europe isn’t perfect, but it’s the best place on the planet!

There is no way in hell that we should have non-whites coming here, claiming more benefits that Finns themselves are allowed. How many have you seen with cars and new phones who don’t have work?… And yet, Finns don’t even get enough benefits to buy cars or the latest phones!

I read in an English paper some time back that some non-white claimed to get into Finland, UK and the USA. He took the UK, because the USA would have forced him to find work within 6 months or send him out and Finland was too cold to his liking! That’s very very wrong, but yet we allow this to happen over and over again.

I’ve seen the big black women with all they get up, pushing buggies with black dollies so they can travel for free on the metro. It’s not just one of them, I’ve seen different ones doing it! It’s why I refuse to help them now!

I feel so sorry for Finland, if you let things go the same way as what’s happened in the UK!

Close the gates to them now!

For those who don’t know how to use the internet!

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Hi Married to an American,
Not only do I agree with you but I’m already doing my bit. I hug my Christian wife everyday without any protests by me or calls for my deportation by her.

‘Keep the doors closed’, did we once meet in a pub in Grimsby?

Toodle pip.