I heard a single apple in Tokio costs $5. How much an apple then in Oslo

i know its not a city, but i paid $10 for a cup of coffee on the big island in hawaii. (it was a pretty good cup of coffee, but not 10 bucks good…)

Am I the only one who finds this disturbing? The average and disposable income for Helsinki is way below the others in the Top 10, not to mention other cities with great social services much further down this list.

I just wonder which were the criteria for the ranking. My Japanese friend finds London/ the U.K. and Finland much more expensive than Japan.Also, my brother recently visited Japan, and posed that Finland is much more expensive than Japan. How much is based on long-term living costs, and how much on business travellers’ rankings? Just wondering! Thaks.

Ihanan kallista!

I agree with Mapleleaf entirely.

If you developed a ranking of purchasing power of Stadilainens adjusting for their relatively low wages, high taxes and high prices, probably Helsinki would rank among the lowest of all capital cities of developed countries, and possibly some of the developing countries too.

The reason for the high taxes are obvious.

The high prices are partly due to the forever cozy cartel pricing of the various interest groups selling goods and services.

The low wages are partly due to the wage settlements between the unions and employer groups putting a cap on them so that all the remaining manufacturing doesn’t leave the country for cheaper locations.

If Finland is trying to entice foreigners to live here on economic grounds, forget it.

For ‘just wondering’, according to:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P143604.asp
The biannual survey compares the cost of a basket of over 160 goods and services in dollar terms, including everything from babysitting services to entertainment and clothing. It is used by companies as a guide for calculating living expenses for executives and their families being sent overseas.

I don’t find Helsinki especially expensive except for the housing which is shocking. I would guess that it is housing that is pushing Helsinki up the list plus the 22% VAT rate. Still, having been in London, Paris and New York I’m quite used to paying a lot for my housing.

I blame Espoo for the high housing costs. Lots of big green spaces near central Helsinki undeveloped. I also support the “turn Pasila into Manhatten” idea. Americans know how to build upwards – we should learn from them.

The high prices are partly due to the forever cozy cartel pricing of the various interest groups selling goods and services.

That is exactly why I am very sceptical of the formula used to rank Finland as the “most competitive economy”. Anyone who has been to NYC knows that the city is very expensive, but it ranks 27th based on 160 common variables precisely because it is the most competitive economy in the world.

If Finland is trying to entice foreigners to live here on economic grounds, forget it.

Since family is a win-lose scenario either way, my Finnish girlfriend and I have agreed NOT to make Finland our permanent home based on economics, standard of living, and quality of life.
My Finnish neighbours and friends are starting to walk away when confronted with ridiculous prices and occasionally make some noise about them as well. Some Finns on F4T, however, are a little more stubborn…

I also support the “turn Pasila into Manhatten” idea. Americans know how to build upwards – we should learn from them.

There are a bunch of influential idiots here who oppose anything over 5 stories high.

Here‘s a link, in Finnish only, though. Sorry.

How much does an average one bedroom (or whatever) in Helsinki cost per month to rent? To buy? What about a house in the country? (Or where can I find this info in English?)

“There are a bunch of influential idiots here who oppose anything over 5 stories high.”

Well, it’s not an entirely silly argument. They have such height regulations in Copenhagen (or so I was told when I was over there). The idea was that all the ancient spires and such wouldn’t be eclised by big office buildings, and I have to say it does make the centre look nicer than say, the more built up bits of London.

Preserving the architechtural vista of Pasila, though, might be pushing it a bit.

-BM

Mapleleaf, Thanks for the clarification for the criteria. I actually thought they were based on some business travellers’ rankings, or I was thinking about some other survey. So, this was more about the real costs of living.

#11
studio apartments (ca 25sq m)
rent:
Helsinki: about 500-800e/month
countryside: about 150-300e/month depending on the county/municipality

price:
Helsinki: about 60000-150000e,
countryside: about 10000-50000e depending on the county/municipality

a house (ca 120 sq m)
price:
Helsinki: about 250000-1000000e, maybe even more
Countryside: about 30000-250000e depending on the county/municipality

I’m not an estate agent, but I have read etuovi.com a lot lately.

rental in helsinki is pricey, but not bad compared to other places. consider this: 4 years ago i lived in minneapolis, mn-a mediocre midwestern city. i was a renter. for a 1 bedroom (+living room, kitchen, and bathroom) apartment in a neighborhood where there was a good chance of my car being stolen, i was paying $750 a month. this was nowhere near any upscale areas, strictly urban jungle. said price is, as far as i know, is pretty economical compared to most u.s. cities. the standard of living in even the most crappy neighborhoods of helsinki is pretty decent compared to any urban U.S. environment (anecdotal evidence). a totally unscientific comparison: if you go to a helsinki bar during häppäri (for you finnicly challenged read “happy hour”) you can get a 1/2 liter of beer for 2 euros. if one were to buy the same beer in the states, forget happy hour, you’ll be paying minimum 4 bucks for the equivalent volume of imported suds. of course if you want to drink american pisswater you can easily get a tap for a buck or less. my $70,000 in school loans also come to mind…

Maybe Helsinki will lose some citizens because of this, so it’s a good thing!

Just Wondering (1), you really can pay 5 bucks for an apple in Tokyo, but if you’re going for the expensive ones, there are pricier ones to choose from. Go for the fifty-buck ones instead, or the square watermelons for about 1000 bucks. They’re meant as presents, mainly, and anyone who receives one will know how expensive they are.
It’s not the thought that counts, it’s the present..

Living expenses aside, if you know where to go for a drink it’s not really that expensive.

I meant my comment for conan, not for Just Wondering! Sorry!!

#14, cameraperson and #15, jenkki immigrant: thanks for the info.

my experience with housing prices and neighborhood safety in the u.s. is the same as jenkki immigrant’s. my friend in sacramento, california just sold her tiny two bedroom house in an okay neighborhood for $500,000 (housing prices just jumped up in the last few years–she paid $120,000 for it 5 years ago). in that neighborhood–in which there were people living outside my trashcan–i paid $600 a month for a 1 bd there… better apts. there start at $800 or so. now i live in a small oregon college town and pay the same. it seems that many places here cost at least that much, even in crappy places without jobs. in my bay area college town a few years ago, i paid $1,250 for a 1 bd. and, of course, in san francisco or new york a safe studio seems to cost at least $1,500 a month. and if you’re a student, young, and/or poor you’re screwed, because you’re bound to get paid crap, while you work your ass off–and have no health insurance and screwy public transportation. i don’t know… helsinki may be pricey, but people there seem to “have it” a lot better there in terms of housing costs and quality of life.

After these discussions and stories about living conditions in US I understand arguments in previous discussions and subjects better.
A lot of people strongly supported the Finish left wing ideology of having everything similar for everybody. No change for better service for more money ( e.g. private schools and support Halonen as President).
Many US imigrants in Finland seem to come form “crappy” places as some have decribed them.
Under these cicumstances Finland must feel paradise and left wing support is obvious.

With this statement I am NOT saying that these people are not intelligent and well educated. I just better understand the background for arguments.

rgds Tom

rgds Tom

Many US imigrants in Finland seem to come form “crappy” places as some have decribed them.
Under these cicumstances Finland must feel paradise and left wing support is obvious.

Yeah. The US is great when you have a $100M trust fund. Big surprise there. Then again, Finland ain’t bad in that case either.

Any other profound insights you’d like to share?

Why so agressive, Franklin?
If course with 100M it is easy to live anywhere and that amount does in most cases not come from own work, savings or investments.

But every inteligent educated person has the chance to make in some years 0,5 to 1M invested capital. And with this life is already quite OK in US and Finland as well. But the way of thinking in this case is already a bit different of your’s.

rgds Tom

But every inteligent educated person has the chance to make in some years 0,5 to 1M invested capital.

Really? What kind of a la-la-land are you living in?

How do you propose one does that? By robbing a bank? Importing two kilos of heroin?

To put things in context, for a person grossing about 50,000 a year (which puts one in the top 10% in Finland and well above the median in the States), one could raise 0,5M in about 20 years. Providing, of course, that one lives in homeless shelters and dines at the Salvation Army soup kitchen.

Yeah, our thinking is a little different. I live in this universe.

I spoke about inteligent and educated persons. And they can make above 50.000/year with enough work and motivation. Not straight after univerity, but 10 years later or so.

The typical problem for many people in Finland is that they need always a good car. Usualy 2 classes better than good for the finacial situation. Similar it is with housing. Thay buy too early too expensive home. Once they recovered that financial load they buy a holiday home and/or a boat.

So they are never gaining property and are always fnancially limited until retirement.

This situation is similar for almost all income levels.
The 25.000/year earner buys a new Toyota and a new 200.000,- home…
The above 50.000/year earner buys a new Mercedes and a 500.000,- home…

But if the “poor guy” drives a old Toyota and lives in a rental apartment and the “rich guy” like described before for the “poor guy”, then both can grow property. Even in Finland!

Invest 1000 e/ month for 10 years, and if every 3 years the invested capital doubles then you have a nice sum and financially save living situation.

rgds Tom

“I spoke about inteligent and educated persons. And they can make above 50.000/year with enough work and motivation. Not straight after univerity, but 10 years later or so.”

How are these intelligent and educated persons going to get into a decent university in the first place if your family doesn’t have some money? It’s about equal opportunities for us lefties.

I think in all European countries one can study and reach a good level of education without having a especially rich family. But very few countries in Europe have such left wing gouvernment as Finland has.
The secret is as I explaned before, not to consume all the money you make. And that is possible for at least 95% of people in Finland.

A lot of people here are complaining about greedyness of the rich to make more money. But is it not moore greedy of the poor, always to buy more that they can afford (big house, big car on big bank loans)?

But perhaps I shouldn’ complain. If people would not spend all their money the consumption would go down and share prices would decline.
Lefties just continue like you are, it is finally better for me.

Have a nive cold weekend,
Tom

I spoke about inteligent and educated persons.

Judging by a few things in your posts you really don’t have an insider’s view about being intelligent and educated.

And they can make above 50.000/year with enough work and motivation.

Since I make about 50,000/year, I have a pretty good idea how “easy” it is to raise millions with that kind of income. My car is in the Toyota price range and I live in a rental apartment. Didn’t manage to save a dime last year. Yeah, I live a comfortable life but, but not an extravagant one.

Based on IQ tests I’m in the top 2% or so. To be there in terms of income I’d have to make about 150,000/year. Not about to happen, I’m afraid.

Invest 1000 e/ month for 10 years, and if every 3 years the invested capital doubles then you have a nice sum and financially save living situation.

And of COURSE it’s going to double every 3 years. And it will never, ever, ever go down. What are you, 12 years old?

Hi again,

Of course capital does not only and always grow. But when clever invested in longterm it does grow.

Something you must do wrong if earning above 50.000 and not being able to save anything.
There are a lot of 20.000 earners who also consider to live comfortable.
I think it is just your choice.

Once Franklin you have understood this you don’t need to attack me anymore. And remember IQ and cleverness are two pair of shoes!

An other issue is “equal changes for everybody”. That will never work 100%.
Imagine a stupid guy doing nothing else than fucking and having 15 children with 10 different women.
Should we now say “You are a good guy, don’t worry, all your children will have the best education and possibilities in life. We will pay for it. Just continue fucking”
Or do we accept that perhaps not everybody has just equal changes in life? It is a pity for such children but life is not always fair.

regards
Tom

I think in all European countries one can study and reach a good level of education without having a especially rich family.

Best of luck trying to get to Eton and then Oxford with zero £££, my friend.

But very few countries in Europe have such left wing gouvernment as Finland has.

I doubt that the current centre-left coalition could be classified as particularly left-wing by international comparison.

The secret is as I explaned before, not to consume all the money you make. And that is possible for at least 95% of people in Finland.

No, this is incorrect. You are living in fantasy land. Does this require the proverbial railroad track to get through? The lower middle class and below are living from hand to mouth.

I do agree that regular middle-class folks would do well not to buy a home at these inflated prices but rent and invest instead. They could raiset some capital that way. Mind you, not the Monopoly money you’ve been talking about, but a few ten grand. It’ll buy a week or two at a private hospital, so let’s do away with public healthcare.

$50,000 a year isn’t gonna cut it to save up a $,$$$,$$$ anywhere in the world, been there, done that. Proper investment? good, but after even average living expences it ain’t much left to invest to begin with and as they say it takes money to make money whether it’s investment, business or whatever. With a good retirement plan one can accumulate some savings but definitely not in the 6 figures range

Franklin, I give up with you!
You continue to live from hand to mouth and I continue to life in “phantasy world”.
Anyway this “phantasy world” live worked fine for me, without great family support for study… and it was not a question of good luck with once buying and selling Nokia shares at the right moment.

rgds Tom

Tom, I read Peter Lynch’s book about making an investment portfolio. His golden rule ‘never gamble with the money that you might need tomorrow to buy food’ I think you just got lucky with that Nokia shares.

@conan:
I’ve never owned any Nokia share!
Perhaps Peter Lynch means “the rich shall do the money business and the poor shall be the slaves”.

Sory I do not share this opinion.

Almost everybody has the chance to do something for his financial future. And there are plenty of examples for sucess.
But not everybody is smart enough and there are always people who find reasons that something does not work.
Find a clever strategy, believe and work for it!

Tom

Tom

Tom

working on it

I mentioned Lynch’s warning about the stocks cause I misread your post about Nokia shares, so I thought you implied to building a fortune by gambling with stock. Actually in his book he gives down to earth advice on building an investment portfolio. It’s not designed to keep an average Joe from working his way up.

“I’ve never owned any Nokia share!
Perhaps Peter Lynch means “the rich shall do the money business and the poor shall be the slaves”.

Sory I do not share this opinion.” –Tom

In speaking of the poor and of investing, how many stockholdings, in general, are ethical, though, in terms of human (worker) rights and environmental health? At some point in the chain, the poor and the land are being abused, yes?

Of course capital does not only and always grow. But when clever invested in longterm it does grow.

And, of course, “clever” investment is defined as one that grows. A nice circular argument.

I’m very interested in building a stock portfolio that is guaranteed to double every 3 years. Got any hints? Is there a money-back guarantee?

Something you must do wrong if earning above 50.000 and not being able to save anything.

Sadly, it’s under 50k. I need to talk to my boss about a raise. He’s getting filthy rich off my back. As to what I’m doing wrong, I don’t live with my mum on a weekly allowance. It costs to pay your own way. You’ll understand this when you’re on your own some day.

An other issue is “equal changes for everybody”. That will never work 100%.

Well, not every cancer patient gets cured. The logical conclusion is to immediately stop all cancer research and treatment. Right?

Anyway this “phantasy world” live worked fine for me, without great family support for study…

Great that you got lucky on the stock market. It would be even greater to win 10M in Lotto. This is not just such a great foundation for a political philosophy.