I for one would be happy to see those indoctrinating christian schools kicked out of existence.

Right on m!

Let’s keep christians, christian parties and christian ideology out of our children’s education.

This is an issue where libertarians can often split. Some say the same thing you do, “Why should the state pay for religion”. I’m in the school voucher/choice camp where the state throws ‘x’ amount of money on the backs of the kids and let them make their own choice whether it’s a public school, christian school, muslim school etc…

Let’s keep christians, christian parties and christian ideology out of our children’s education.

How about the private non-Christian schools that SDP wishes to ban. Do you agree with that? Or only the religious schools?

I’ve never voted for SDP and I never will. This policy is one good reason.

They should definitely put an end to Rudolf Steiner schools. I can’t believe that the state funds this anthroposophy shit. Although I’m quite certain that It’s because of all the MPs and officers that went to Steiner.

Does that attempted ban also include international schools where foreign languages are used in class? Damn, that would be like a shot into the foot.

Lets put things right: state does not fund schools, allows for parents to have a choice about their kids education. Did anyone read that these schools come CHEAPER than public funded?

It is about the right of having a choice. School Vouchers are found to have improved education in Sweden and not even their local social democrats dare question the system.
Why shouldn’t parents be able to put their kids to confessional schools if they wish so, as long as schools behave themselves? For one they are often good value for money; I have my bos in a private religious kindergarden and I know people of other religious seek the place for their children.

They should definitely put an end to Rudolf Steiner schools.

What’s so bad with these Steiner schools, all the parents seem to love them, but I know little about them.

“Let’s keep politicians, political parties and political ideology out of our children’s education.”

That’s kind of impossible, if you give it a thought. Keeping religion out of our children’s education should be fairly easy, and should be done too.

That’s kind of impossible, if you give it a thought.

It’s impossible with the welfare state way of thinking, most certainly.

“How about the private non-Christian schools that SDP wishes to ban. Do you agree with that? Or only the religious schools?”

At least ban the religious schools. Religious families can have sunday schools or what ever if they want, but I don’t like mixing all education with religion. For example, what will a biology class regarding evolution be like in a christian school?

That said, I don’t like the current religion education in the public schools either. There should be some general and unbiased religion/philosophy/history class for all students regardless of their religion.

As for the other private schools, I don’t know. I like the Finnish public school model where everyone has (at least in theory) equal opportunities for all education. I wouldn’t want to see a We$tend €lementary $chool any time soon… (notice the SAK-like mudslinging on the letters, lol)

Most of you Fins just voted for the left wing social democrate President. Now SDP feels strong and they do what they want.
But that is what people voted for and what they deserve.
That is life in in communist and left wing gouverned countries: There is no choice, all are the same.

rgds
Tom

Hello.

Kinda stumbled in here. It is really nice to see what foreigners think of our country. (sept for Conan.)

Keep up the good work guys!

Why do people need a choice with education, if the state provides good quality basic education? If parents want more religion in the classes, then they could also arrange that at home or in church. Later on the kid can even study theology. These are all free choices and realistic possibilities. It’s going to be more difficult if it’s about foreign language schools. But also there a lot is and can be organised outside school hours.

The schools and their supporters say that the present threat to their existence is more ideological and political than it is economic.

And right so! Teaching children intelligent design instead of evolution biology is wrong and should be banned from schools.

As for the other private schools, I don’t know. I like the Finnish public school model where everyone has (at least in theory) equal opportunities for all education. I wouldn’t want to see a We$tend €lementary $chool any time soon…

So, you’re saying that having equal opportunies is denying others the right to further and look for better. I do support and appreciate the public system, and I think it is a shame that the state and municipalities seem to take money away from schools instead of continuously improving the system – but I cannot understand why would others that want something better for their children should not have it. Taking away private competition for schools is paving the way to mediocrity, a sytem where everybody will get bad or unsufficient service because if someone gets anything more there’ll be unequality – and no one should get better service from the state than others,..?

This is a thing where libertarian thinking gets my points. I don’t understand this intolerance against religious (or other views) schools that seems quite common in Finland (common for social democrats?). What it is away from others if some parents want to take their children to a christian or steiner school? I don’t oppose the public school model that is now in use, just wondering what’s so wrong having some choice? Especially when it is actually cheaper for the state as so much work is done voluntarily in private schools.

You don’t have to be a christian to oppose social democrats here. I would never put my children to a steiner school but I would let them live along with other private schools. Seems to me that freedom of choice and tolerance are totally unknown concepts for some people.

I don’t either Jaska. Some people just want to rule what others can or cannot do. You’r enot interested in private schooling that’s fine with me, let’s talk on how we can improve public schooling, they’re pretty good an dcan get even better.

SDP also wishes to put every children to public daycare. This is the main reason why I will never vote them. I’m very pro-free choice. Why do they allow Steiner-schools, but not christian schools?

Why do people need a choice with transportation, if the state provides good quality basic transportation services?

It seems indeed that for every SDP-bashing right wing loony there is at least one equally fanatical social democrat.

I think I’ll give my vote to the conservatives in the next election, first time in my life. Paradoxically they are the only ones who seem to represent change and progress.

Education is a choice we (parents in this case) make for others; Children. If here would be a real choice between all kinds of different education, it would mean much more responsibility for the parents, with far reaching consequences for the child. I think that’s clearly different than having to choose between public and private healthcare, or tune in to YLE or Nelonen.

first time in my life

With the exception of last Sunday, of course. Damn, I’m getting old.

“I do support and appreciate the public system, and I think it is a shame that the state and municipalities seem to take money away from schools instead of continuously improving the system – but I cannot understand why would others that want something better for their children should not have it.”

I think you could privatise many parts of the public school system (real estate, catering, staff?, etc.) and still have equal opportunities for all. I just don’t like the idea that if you are born in a poor family you are doomed for life. The “something better for the kids” should be based on the childrens skills and interests, not the wealth of their parents.

There’s nothing wrong with some fair competition. I think we would get better learning results that way. Believe me, I have been bored to death in school many times when things had to be done so that the weakest link also understands them (not that I’m in any way claiming to be smart, just an example).

” What it is away from others if some parents want to take their children to a christian or steiner school?”

It’s not away from the other families, it’s away from the kids in these schools. These kids have no choice and they can be put in some crazy religious school. I think you shouldn’t have private religious schools until the kids are old enough, say 15-18, to make their own choice.

We need to have basic minimum requirements by which every Finn is educated. No one should have to go without. In my opinion it is very appreciated if some people are willing to volountary work to improve theirs children’s lot. It is also okay if religious communities want to finance people’s education.

On the other hand, it is not okay at all to teach religion in schools, because schools are supposed to stand for the Western rational world view(in my opinion). It is finally time to separate public and common institutions from anything that smells of religion. Any school that teaches religion, should be banned from giving official diplomas of the Finnish educational system. Of course “elämänkatsomustieto” is fine as it is in line with the world view that Finnish schools stand for.

BTW. the Swedish voucher system sounds great. Not that I know anything about it, it’s just that it’s Swedish..

“It’s impossible with the welfare state way of thinking, most certainly.”

Politicians decide about education in any system. You can’t deny that.

I think many of you have not realized that the question is about banning private schools and not the question about religion or Steiner and such stuff.
Somebody asked why to have a choice if basic system provides high quality… The opinion might differ about what is high enoug quality and what not.
Please let the choice for free people!!!
Or are you sadisfied if the whole nation drives a Lada (it is good enough to get from A to B). Why do you want to select the working place? Perhaps the gouvernment can provide work and tell where you have to work. Or do you want to give up to select your place to live?

rgds
Tom

Here~s a good reading on how private education can help poor and less well off children:
the case for the school Voucher – Sweden
(I~ve read one such article months ago and I think it is this one)

“Or are you sadisfied if the whole nation drives a Lada (it is good enough to get from A to B). Why do you want to select the working place? Perhaps the gouvernment can provide work and tell where you have to work. Or do you want to give up to select your place to live?”

Perhaps everybody will shot if the government gets to monitor our schooling system?

“I think you could privatise many parts of the public school system (real estate, catering, staff?, etc.) and still have equal opportunities for all. I just don’t like the idea that if you are born in a poor family you are doomed for life. The “something better for the kids” should be based on the childrens skills and interests, not the wealth of their parents.”

not at all. By calleging established public schools private schools were able to “offer” better education to all kids in their areas. Second with a voucher system parents do not pay much money making it acessible to almost anyone – and saving money that the state can use to improve public services. Third, a demand system is the best garantee for those poor kids with skills. I come from a country that all of sudden made education easy and effortless (not that it had been difficult but at one moment there were loads of people entering universities) – in the end those who had better off families gained the most – they had the connections, private tutoring and pedigree to get hold of the best jobs. Poor guys with a degree but no working habits are still looking for proper jobs.

And face reality: there will always be those with money and power and they’ll always look after their children the best they know and can afford. Putting extra weight on their kids won’t give children equal opportunities only lower the standards.

good comment by hDn

A government that lets us all drive a Mercedes? And than it’s all OK, I suppose? Sometimes I think people are just saying things because it belongs to what they think is their ideology, not because they have given it any thought. Something like “I like Black Sabbath, so I dress in black and love any loud music”.

In the case of Finland and education I don’t think it’s about the choice for something better, but for something different. To add something they miss, or to omit something they don’t like. My question is; Is it so important to them that these things need to be incorporated in education? Will it harm their children if they have to send them to public school? In many other countries it sometimes IS about quality, but also about not to have you kid having to sit next to a black kid, or next to a farmer boy, or next to a child of blue collar parents. Do we want that here?

I have to admit you have a point there hDn. Thanks for the link BTW, I have to research this voucher subject further. And I know that in the end money makes things go around but it shouldn’t be the only factor in the quality of education the child gets.

Great comments from everyone!!

First off, you’re not going stop religion being taught to kids by banning Christian schools. The kids will just get it in the evenings or on the weekends.

Secondly, yeah, state money will be going to Christian schools. I can see how that’s a problem. But think about all the money the state gives out in welfare. People can take that money, and give it to Christian organizations. So again, the state is basically funding religion. Should we ban welfare recipiants donating their unemployment check to a church? Of course not. You need to look at it as the state is funding the individual, then the individual decides what he/she does with that money.

My guess is that SDP doesn’t really have a problem with religion, they have a problem with private schools. SDP are the most statist party in Finland, and most collectivist. Their principles tell them that everyone should go to the same state-sponsored school. So I think SDP is consistant when they wish to ban not only Christian schools, but Steiner and Montisori etc..

Tom: “I think many of you have not realized that the question is about private schools and not the question about religion…”

This proposal would never have been made had it not been because of Christian religious indoctrination of kids at school. That is the real issue. Private schools as such would not be banned altogether and such an initiative would never, ever pass the Eduskunta anyway.

The debate is essentially about religion and I’m quite sure the Centrists will not let religious schools be closed. That is the main issue what the SDP minister wants to tackle, I don’t know why since there are such small odds for such a move to succeed. And I don’t think the problem is the teaching of religion so much as the teaching of other subjects from a religious perspective.

This has nothing to do with Presidential elections, the President does not make these decisions anyway.

Phil: “The kids will just get it in the evenings or on the weekends.”

Yeah, but those who would like to ban religious teaching of, say, biology, are not interested in what the kids do at weekends. If the kids learn basics about biology at school (which they might not at an extremist enough school), they will have counterarguments against the religion they belong to. Parents have every right to teach religion to their kids their way.

The whole big issue is about whether the kids get instruction on Creationism etc. 24-7 or only at evenings or weekends. If the kids hear both versions they understand what kind of world they’re living in. If the kids are totally protected from scientific facts in the name of religion, it can turn out pretty bad for them. On the other hand, if they come to understand the difference between science-based teaching and religious teaching, there is nothing wrong at all in them getting the religious perspective at evenings or weekends.

Hello Helsinkian,

I understand that the president does not make such school decissions (I came to Finland 4 president elections ago).

I am just provocating a bit about the SDP way of thinking to make everithing and everybody similar and cut freedom and free selection in life.
Perhaps I am still a bit frustrated about this president election.

rgds. Tom

OK, now my previous post is visible. Sorry about the cencorship comment.
But my point about private schools holds. I don’t want to see those religious
indoctrination institutes in Finland, and the majority of private schools
in Finland are __religious schools__. The only exception are a few private
foreign language schools, which are OK.

Surfer: you can’t be serious. Not all religious schools are the same. For example, the Jewish School has nothing at all to do with religious extremism. There is a whole world of difference between religious schools and extreme religious schools.

What’s so bad with these Steiner schools, all the parents seem to love them, but I know little about them.

Well, the teaching is based on Anthroposophy. Here’s a quote from http://skepdic.com/steiner.html

“According to Steiner, people existed on Earth since the creation of the planet. Humans, he taught, began as spirit forms and progressed through various stages to reach today’s form. Humanity, Steiner said, is currently living in the Post-Atlantis Period, which began with the gradual sinking of Atlantis in 7227 BC … The Post-Atlantis Period is divided into seven epochs, the current one being the European-American Epoch, which will last until the year 3573. After that, humans will regain the clairvoyant powers they allegedly possessed prior to the time of the ancient Greeks”

That shit shouldn’t be teached to anyone, let alone children.

We left the US because of libertarian militia wackos moving to our neighborhood. A Christian school was the first sign so I see the Finnish government policy as a welcome crackdown. I don’t think the government is acting without a very good reason.

Do you guys really understand the nasty flipside of the ideology Phil is advocating? Communism was a fine theory, only the implementation sucked. After having seen the implementors of libertarianism I am no longer interested in its theory.

SDP = Communist = constraint to progression

Phil, above you said “donating their unemploy-
ment checks to church” making 2 revealing mis-
takes. 1. There are no unemployment checks in
Finland [since the 70′s the transactions go str
aight to recipents’ bank accounts in electron-
ic form 2. the church is not funded by donat-
ions, they get their funds by church tax.

This is just another proof of the fact your
knowledge of the Finnish society is very weak,
and your strong opinions are based on beliefs
with only few connections with the facts. Get real, dude!

In USA they say “Love it or leave it!” In here,
we say “Maassa maan tavalla tai maasta pois!”

Anyways, have a nice day!

This is just another proof of the fact your knowledge of the Finnish society is very weak

Unemployment checks, unemployment payments. Whatever, you get the fucking point.

Churchess do take donations don’t they?? And people can donate their unemployment money to it, can’t they?

Don’t come on here and act like a little bitch.

#40 Oregon “Communism was a fine theory” goes well with

#15 Majava “Why do people need a choice with education”

you need to add “Why do people need a choice with anything when the state will take care of you.”

Darn… Communism won.. at least in Finland it did.

Yeah, Finland needs another witch hunt against ‘communists’. Democracy has talked in here and extremists with their torches can shut it. Oh, Phil. Why do you hate poor people and equal opportunity? I was much more wiser than my rich class mates and thanks to equal opportunities I have managed to succeed unlike my counterparts. If I would have been born in USA’s old slave areas and enjoyed poorly funded public schools in there, I don’t know where I would be! Probably in New Orleans looting my dinner and ducking bullets from the army.

“don’t come on here and act like a little bitch” whoa, phil on the verbal slapdown! damn man, did someone mix fatty sausage chunks in with your freedom fries? (and then drown them in lettuce, mayo, mustard, and relish) as far as your slamming of collectivism: we own our apartment (at least the space contained withing the walls). we do not own our apartment building. in fact no one individual owns our building. it is owned by our buildings resident corporation. we hold meetings, pay dues, hire maintenance people. technically, we are a collective. would it be better for us to be mere renters, allowing one big dickhead to accumulate wealth, rather than the current status quo where 18 little dickheads are able to build equity. i get the feeling that housing collectives wouldn’t be allowed in a philtopia.

“On the other hand, it is not okay at all to teach religion in schools, because schools are supposed to stand for the Western rational world view”

Few points:

1. Kids don’t _have to_ study religion in school, they can choose “elämänkatsomustieto” (that teaches about philosophy, ethics, morality etc) if they want to (ok, if the parents want to, until the kids are 15-16yrs old and choose for themselves).

2. There is a law, that if there’s x amount (I don’t remember the exact number, it’s around 5) children of certain religion they are entitled to study their own religion. Over 80% of the Finns are lutherans so it’s only natural that christian religion is taught.

3. No one is forced to be a member of the church. I’ve never understood people who attack religion so viciously in Finland, when no one has to belong to any church, nor pay the church tax. Nor have their children participate in the religion-classes in school.

There is a choice! And I think having a choice is the whole point for different kind of schools too.

“aPointOfView”, I knew about points 1 and 2 but isn’t that for public schools? Why then also have special private schools, if (even your own)religion can be taught in a public school?

The current system offers enough choice already and after basic education it only gets wider. I see no need for private elementary schools. It does not add anything to what’s already being offered.

If I would have been born in USA’s old slave areas and enjoyed poorly funded public schools in there, I don’t know where I would be!

Yup, that’s why the U.S. needs school choice!

phil on the verbal slapdown! damn man, did someone mix fatty sausage chunks in with your freedom fries?

The anonymous user made two idiot comments, then told me I know nothing about Finland, then told me that if I don’t like it I should go home….all in one comment. It reached my boiling point.

I see no need for private elementary schools.

I see no need for alot of things, that doesn’t mean that others see a need. I think it’s great that a parent, student, teacher, and administrator all want to get together and agree on something – who are we to intervene? You take your kid to a public school, let them take theirs to a private school. Why get in everyone else’s business?

“majava”, I was quoting #24, and I understood that “Ode” was against teaching religion at all anywhere.Even in public schools. Thus my points 1 and 2.

You said that private schools don’t add anything to what’s already offered. In this case, they do add a possibility to learn more about Christianity than public schools do. That’s the same point of having foreing language schools, music oriented schools, sports oriented schools etc. All those subjects are thought in public schools, but parents sometimes want to give their kids a chance to get a deeper knowledge of a certain subject(admittedly it is the parents’ opinion on what they think is best for the child, which is another topic altogether).

boiling point understood. i still don’t understand what you have against individuals working together under consensus (re anti-collective comments). a collective is basicly a corporation without a ceo.

Phil, I NEVER told you to go home and I’ll nener
will. Just told you to get real, ’cause the Dev-
il dwells in details.

I appreciate the idea of freedom of choice. But I think that in this case the freedom of the child to get irreligious, scientific education is more important than the parents’ right to choose their children’s schools.

I typed this already yesterday, but the blog disappeared then. My CPU was ready for that though…

Phil, that’s fine! If anyone wants to start a school then go ahead! But in that case, the people who took the initiative because they did not fully approve of the public system, should also not count on any public funding. I am very much pro freedom of business establishment, but almost as much against subsidies!

aPointOfView, I believe that here, in Finnish society, there are plenty of possibilties and opportunities to do exactly what you said. People do not need to establish schools for that. In fact I think it may increase segregation if the school’s focal point is religion or even language.

Teaching children intelligent design instead of evolution biology is wrong and should be banned from schools.

Is some Christian school really teaching ID in Finland? Last time I looked, next to no Christians in Finland wanted to have anything to do with it. I’d certainly ban ID, too, but I very much doubt that getting to teach creationism is the big idea of Finnish Christian schools.

Creationism or anything of the sort never was taught to me during religion classes or anywhere else. We went through the story of creation according to the Bible, of course, like the rest of its contents, but no one ever said that’s the scientific truth of it. If you asked the religion teacher, they would tell you that the story was not a literal truth and that wasn’t the point of it at all in any case.

I stand for (non-compulsory) religion classes, or at the very least elämänkatsomustieto classes, at Finnish schools simply because they provide a very important part of all-round education. Looking at how little knowledge or understanding e.g. Americans tend to have of religions other than their own (and in many cases, even their own, even though they consider themselves big believers), I stand for the religion classes all the firmer.

Is some Christian school really teaching ID in Finland?
Unfortunately the answer is Yes. It made my girlfriend jump up from her seat when she read it “NOT in my country!” We were both amazed how silently this has been introduced here, while in the US, in spite of their much stronger religious beliefs, it caused outrage and big public debate. I don’t remember where the schools were. Perhaps I can still find out…

Under “Why Finland is fantastic” Phil says:
“I hope to God I never see this crap [christian fanatics] in Finland…”

http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/02/17/why-finland-is-fantastic-brreason-6666-less-christian-whackos/

And now he is supporting christian schools in Finland?

Majava (re:58): I’m surprised and not at all happy to hear about ID in Finnish schools. Thanks for any information/reference you can dig up.

Great Moments in Blogistan History, #2687:

Anonymous notices the flaw in the Philian time-space-opinion continuum for the first time.

“Huh? Hey, but it’s Thursday now. That was Monday”

Anonymous #59: the “crap” Phil was referring to was not just any old Christian fanatics, that was Fred Phelps supporters. That’s the most hate-spewing kind of “Baptists” and AFAIK they aren’t in friendly relations with other Baptists, let alone with most Christians. There is a certain difference between Christian fanatics and Christian terrorists.

Well, I found out some more. It was mentioned in a recent Helsingin Sanomat article about the same topic that the original post on this blog is on. The school is a Christian private school in Helsinki area and an interviewed pupil stated that in biology classes evolution was not being taught and instead they learned about creationsim and basic bible stuff. I thought it was ID, but apparently I was not correct. Neverheless still not a good thing. Biology is biology, Bible = bible two different things.

Thanks, Majava. Not happy about that at all (I don’t like creationism any better than ID), although the name of the school would be good to know.

I happend to write about the same subject today (check my blog) but couldn’t find the original news article (didn’t even remember the channel that aired the news) – then I came here and now I have a source:)

It seems you all are denying the right of parents to pass on their values to their children, especially values that you do not like. Seriously why do you care that children from religious households are indoctrinated. I will argue that children from secular households are just as indoctrinated as the religous ones. People feel the need for religious schools simply because they VALUE them. I do not understand why secular people feel the need to stop that. You can argue from your secular perspective that public schools should be enough for them, but religious people see it differently and I think it does not hurt anybody to respect their choices especially when it is not your child. You can argue that the children will be taught creationism. I say that is a moot point, because if all you are afraid about is creationism, well education is a lot more than creationism. Sooner or later, the children will see if for themselves. Besides there are already standards that schools are held to, it is enough for the state to enforce the standards.

Look mightyiguana, I am not denying that right. I’m saying that there’s so much opportunity for people of any religion to do more with their beliefs. Churches arrange all kinds of things. Why then go for the overkill and also make schools like the educational branch of the church? And since I’m in favour of the freedom to establish your own knitting club, I say “then create your school of god”! But not with public funding, oh no!

Looks like many people in here have no clue about what private and public schools are about in Finland. Steiner schools and christian schools are only a small part of the private school. Most private schools are private due to historical reasons (for example Helsingin suomalainen yhteiskoulu, the first coeducational school in Finland) and do not differ from public schools in any way. Besides, at least all lukios (upper secondary schools) have to follow a the national curriculum and e.g. cannot teach anything other than the evolution theory in biology.

Phil is probably right about SDP’s fear for private schools in the sense that they are too elitist. I consider that fear ridiculous since most of the so called “elite schools” in Helsinki are owned and operated by the city or the state.

Dear sir/madam,
I want you to give me all the website and e-mail addresses of governement and private Bible schools,colleges and Information Technology schools and colleges in Finland,Denmark,Sweden and Norway.Thank you.
GABRIEL CRENTSIL