The article states Finland needs change. The question is what change and who can do it? Maybe I am wrong, but isn’t it tha case that a president in Finland merely has ceremonial jobs to perform, e.g., attend cocktail parties at embassies, attend some meetings of charity organizations, make some rudimentary politically correct statements in some glossy magazines, and so on. I assume the constitution gives the Finnish president far less power than in France, Russia, or the USA.
Isn’t it primarily the chanceller (or prime minister) who should be an agent of change in Finland? Again, which changes should those be? Hm, I assume it is primarily about lowering income tax, cutting back the role of the state in the lives of average Finns, and as a result let the service sector unfold. Otherwise there is not so much to complain about in Finland. Am I correct?

inland could be considered a very much polarized nation

Were you around 6 years ago?

Although Halonen got only a slight majority of votes, after a couple of months she got excellent approval ratings. Same would happen if Niinistö had won, unless he made some mistake. So, finns are hardly polarized just because of this election.

Bah Humbug, Phil!!!

Maybe I am wrong, but isn’t it tha case that a president in Finland merely has ceremonial jobs to perform,

While the President’s powers have shrunk over the years, it’s still very much an important and powerful position. And even with the things the President doesn’t have the power to change, this person can lead the country to the direction of change.

Were you around 6 years ago?

Nope, I arrived 3.5 years ago. (Six years ago I thought Finland was a country located in central Africa which is now known as the Democratic Republic of Congo)

We are entering a new era, Tarjatorship. The Finnish citizens just gave this ridiculous grandma six more years as the president… though, it was always kind of obvious that that would happen since Halonen has the same approval ratings as Kim Jong-Il. Comrade Halonen is supposedly the commander in chief of Finnish army but doesn’t even know the basic ranks of the army and she can’t even pronounce the letter R properly. She has no stance about anything and she keeps babbling meaningless one-liners about welfare state (welfare state this, welfare state that…) like a mental patient. She has no charisma whatsoever and it’s hard to imagine anyone who would represent Finland worse than she does. The reign of Tarjatorship will be disastrous to Finland. 12 years of grandma Halonen is too much for this country. It’s disgusting how it was considered so obvious that Halonen would win even straight on the first round. Hey, why don’t we abolish the elections altogether and just agree that Social Democrats will have the president for eternity! No need for this stupid democracy with 99 % approval ratings for Moomin Mama who can’t even be criticized anymore!

Tarja can get excellent approval ratings without people actually supporting her. I have no real complaints of Tarjas previous term, but I still don’t consider her to be my president. I didn’t vote her 6 years ago, and again I didn’t vote her yesterday.

Almost half of Finnish people wanted to get rid of her.

Almost half of Finnish people wanted to get rid of her.
Naah, I think they wanted Sauli.

Phil, the approval ratings have nothing to do with who people vote for. Even my 85-year-old grandmother, who represents conservative values and never would vote for Tarja, said she approves of what she has done as president. I think Tarja is one of the most socially liberal presidents we’ve had and certainly represents change in that direction. Six years ago many doubted whether someone who’s been a single mom and who is not a member of the Lutheran Church ever can get elected. There is not a one single direction of change, no single politician represents progress in all issues. Anyway, both candidates represented much the same values really. Anyone who saw the debates could understand that there was a broad agreement between Tarja and Sauli on a number of issues. There were attacks on both sides aimed at the other candidate that had as their aim to divert attention from the fact that it was all about nuances, not about major differences. These disagreements were mostly between the groups of supporters, not between the candidates themselves. The left-right divide in Finland is no longer what it used to be. The polls shifted constantly and there was a great group of undecided voters who made up their minds at the last minute.

After all, it was a run-off between two candidates that defend the socialist welfare system. The conservative party here had been officially ‘neutered’ decades ago by default, due to Soviet influences. There is no conservative politics here in the classical sense of the word.

The overwhelming majority of population support the socialist agenda here, and would never support any candidate who worked for its dismantlement.

Getting rid of the electoral vote system has significantly reduced the chances of ”conservative” politicans reaching the presidencey. In parliamentary politics, its all the same, since its comprised of Leftists anyways….so what if Keskusta wins parliament, it would never stray too far from a Leftist agenda anyway.

Leftist politics rule here, the only ones who are honest about it are the openly Leftists themselves, the others are in denial.

I refuse to see how “change” enters into to the decision between left and right wing concervatives…

Look Phil, here’s a free Finnish Politics 101. As a mind clearing exercise, forget about left/right as a meaningful political category, right wing of SDP is right of the left wing of Kokoomus for example. Now, think interest groups. SDP is the political wing of labour unions and public servants, Kokoomus the same for employer unions and entreprenaurs, and Keskusta is the front for rural population. The balance shifts a little, but basicly what this political arrangement leads to is a system where labor unions get their contracts and the wellfare state employs a good portion of the workforce, corporations and the seriously rich pay little taxes while receiving generous R&D and other subsidies, and the farmers and remote areas get more subsidies. Any ideology the parties in question stumble into is purely accidental, and the big three have little interest in chancing things.

I might vote for Kokoomus if they were actually pro free market, but they are pro business and that is a huge difference lost to many wannabe right wingers.

get over it. Today people are getting back behind their president – that seems to be a finnish trait, “that is the people’s decision we’ll go further if we put our full support on the president”. Helsinkian’s comment sounds pretty good to me.

About the YLE thing, is likely that the place is a magnet for left wing journalists but that should have nothing to do with their polls, they’re normally outsourced and the credebility of the institution that makes them is more at stake than yle’s.

I thing you were the one saying that lefties are lazier at voting, here’s a challenge for you, should be easy with your ciomputing skills: go to the voting in Helsinki and correlate voter tournout and Tarja’s/Sauli’s local victories. I took a look and it seemed to me that wherever Sauli won the turnout was higher.

oops, this is the link:http://www.yle.fi/vaalit/tulospalvelu/kierros2/kn91.html

Lazy lefties win again!
It takes more than “The best campaign ever” to beat those lazy lefties.

Finland needs change does it? Actually what it needs is fine tuning and not the kind that the President has the power to do anything about (and what is that about the president directing change? – Parliament approves the budget and makes the laws Phil). The kind of change Phil would support would make a mockery of the genuine equality of opportunity that exists in only a handful of countries, Finland being one.

No-one in Finland wants Anglosphere poverty. No-one wants Anglosphere social immobility. No-one wants Anglosphere educational outcomes or crime rates. Suggesting Finland move towards a model that is a social disaster and an economic success, is not very clever. And by the way, check out the OECD forecasts – Finland’s doing just fine on the economic front too.

I might vote for Kokoomus if they were actually pro free market, but they are pro business and that is a huge difference lost to many wannabe right wingers.

That’s very good observation, teme!

Now can anyone tell me exactly what powers the president has? To be commander in chief of the defence forces means what? If I don’t get any clear answers, I’ll stick to my opinion that it’s a ceremonial job and Tarja knew best: NATO? Let the government decide! Did Niinistö really think he could arrange a referendum to settle this, if he’d become president?

Again, which changes should those be? Hm, I assume it is primarily about lowering income tax, cutting back the role of the state in the lives of average Finns, and as a result let the service sector unfold. Otherwise there is not so much to complain about in Finland.

Actually a large majority in Finland – as well as in other Scandinavian countries – are satisfied with the way things are, high taxes and all. And why would they not be? The system seems to be one of the best in the whole world. That is, not “in my opinion” but according to many kinds of surveys and polls. Phil’s “desperate need of a change” is a ideologiacal statement and has little to do with facts. In general, you can take a look at almost any international comparsion and find the Scandinavian countries among the top ten. (No, Finland is not a paradise without any need for changes, that’s not what I’m saying.)

With such a close election as this, Finland could be considered a very much polarized nation.

The way I see it, the canditates got so close to each other that I could have voted either one. That’s how the politics of two choices works – in a multi-party country like Finland, at least. Niinistö kissing Halonen’s hand after the defeat, yeah, that’s a good symbol of Finland’s (alleged) polarization.

The Finnish citizens just gave this ridiculous grandma six more years as the president…Lazy lefties win again! and so on …

I was very close to voting for Niinistö. Then I decided that I just could not bear the idea of being on the same side with the offensive and arrogant supporters of Niinistö, the ones who make up the hard core of the right wing, at least on the net.

The main attractions on the power front is the naming people for different offices, foreign policy (with prime minister), and the approving of all laws made by the parlament.

I thing you were the one saying that lefties are lazier at voting, here’s a challenge for you, should be easy with your ciomputing skills

Helsingin Sanomat said the exact same thing. The left don’t vote as much. And I think the pre-election polls proved this. Halonen polled much better the morning of each election, it’s much easier to answer the phone from a pollster than it is to visit the polls.

No-one in Finland wants Anglosphere poverty.

Yeah, and we just read how Helsinki has the same homeless rate as New York City.

And by the way, check out the OECD forecasts – Finland’s doing just fine on the economic front too.

Phil’s “desperate need of a change” is a ideologiacal statement and has little to do with facts.

How often do we hear the OECD and our news media warning of our aging population? Yeah, like constantly.

Wel, having lived in Kekkoslovakia I’m glad there is no possibility of the country turning into Tarjachickistan; the presidents’ powers have been cut, which in a sense is good, but on the other hand, what a waste of tax monies.

Yeah, well, I got over it.

Now the interesting question is who are going to be running in 2012? New faces or the old guard; Sauli, Matti and maybe Paavo twittering there with the same on same on…

Say what? Um, how is Tarja the American-style politician? Rather I think Sauli represented the way of putting form over substance – well known attribute from American politics.

Tarja is indeed very down-to-earth and folklike on her image expression. And that is exactly the message I would like to convey of Finland. One of the problems of politics everywhere (Finland included) is the senseless appealing to emotions, authorative manners and exaggeration of issues, which Tarja is the alternative to, and which Sauli directly represents. This can be noticed even directly in the phrases they decide to use – Sauli refers to the president as an opinion-leader, whereas Tarja rejects the term and prefers to “guide”. A huge difference in phrasing there, I think. Since role of the president is mostly to stand as an image of the nation to others and itself, these are, to me, a big issue in deciding a president. In short, Sauli represents a grand, charismatic leader of the nation, Tarja a skilled, faithful servant of the nation.

On political issues, there really didn’t seem to be much difference – I don’t see how Sauli would represent a change to anything. Both of course want Finland to be a great country, but the most apparent difference I noticed was the emphasis on this: Sauli was directing towards high excellence (“huippuosaaminen”), being the best of the best in some fields, while Tarja was more concerned of having support for the poorest people in the society. This is of course a very traditional left-right -wing difference, do we need to be best (in something) compared to others, or rather have a overall good situation within our society.

The main attractions on the power front is the naming people for different offices, foreign policy (with prime minister), and the approving of all laws made by the parlament.

OK. The naming people I consider most influentual. If your name is ‘Bush’, that is… I don’t think Halonen has appointed many friends of her to increase her grip on the country, has she? The approving of all laws is only theoretically of importance. Just like the Queen of the Netherlands, who can sack the Dutch elected government if she wanted to, although she never ever will. It’s a paper tiger thing.

This is also the reason that I think that with Niinistö we would not see any change. Just like Halonen and her globalisation thing. I actually don’t get it what she wants, or doesn’t and in the end it’s only her opinion and has never affected any law, decision or policy.

with regards to tarjas previous 95% approval rating:just because you didn’t vote for someone doesn’t mean you have no opinion of them after the election. i highly doubt the pollsters questioned only tarja supporters to arrive at that number. i’ve noticed people in finland tend to think more than the bulk of the citizens in our home country(usa). by “think” i mean just that-not “opinionate”. so if you asked a finn who voted for esko in the last election “how do you think tarja is doing?” and tarja hasn’t done anything terribly stupid like aggravate putin or slash spending on education, said esko supporter would probably answer that he thinks she is doing an alright job.

Finnsense – Noone in Finland wants anglosphere poverty

Phil – Yeah, and we just read how Helsinki has the same homeless rate as New York City.

Finnsense – That’s the weakest argument I’ve heard for a while. Firstly, the data was presented by Johann Norberg who belongs to a right-wing think tank. Secondly, even he accepted the statistics on homelessness are dubious. Thirdly, there is more to poverty than homelessness in big cities. Fourthly, every indicator by every independent institute in the world says the Nordic countries have the lowest poverty rates in the world and that the US and UK have among the highest. Even the CIA factbook data shows that the poorest 10% in the US live on half as much as Finland’s poorest 10% and that doesn’t even count the freebies you get here.

And as to the “ageing population” that not just a Finnish problem it’s an OECD problem which the US also faces (Jeez don’t you even watch the West Wing). The difference is that the Finns are already dealing with it through pension reform and running surpluses.

How often do we hear the OECD and our news media warning of our aging population? Yeah, like constantly.

That’s not a uniquely Finnish but a general “baby-boomer problem”. And, besides, what could Niinistö have done about it, any more than Halonen?

And besides, the way I see it, in some respects Finland is better off than many other countries, quite surprisingly perhaps. Yes, at the first glance Finland seems to be cold and remote, but, in fact, we have millions of rather well educated people in the neighboring areas, St Peterburg alone has more citizens than whole Finland. I don’t think it will be particularly hard to convince many of them, when the need arises, to work in Finland, which, after all, would be just a couple of hours away from home. In practice: if we run out of, say, doctors we will just recruit them from Russia or Estonia, something that actually has already happened.

Opening Finland’s borders for anyone to enter (which would be a libertarian solution, not Niinistö’s) is not a viable way to go. Every rich country is a “fine-tuned machine”; not just a piece of land but, rather, a culture, a shared state of mind. Letting anyone in without any concerns regarding their ability to adjust to the system, would mean, in my opinion, just importing poverty from one palce to another, in this case to Finland.

“Now the interesting question is who are going to be running in 2012? New faces or the old guard; Sauli, Matti and maybe Paavo twittering there with the same on same on…”

Ouch. For a dizzy moment I thought you meant Paavo V…

I think Phil won’t be happy until all finnish workers make the same amount of money as chinese workers.

Jeez don’t you even watch the West Wing

Christ no. That’s politics for retards. Right before they watch West Wing they probably listen to Diane Rehm on NPR.

That’s not a uniquely Finnish but a general “baby-boomer problem”. And, besides, what could Niinistö have done about it, any more than Halonen?

Like Niinistö says, the President is an opinion maker. He/she can lead the country in the right direction.

not just a piece of land but, rather, a culture, a shared state of mind. Letting anyone in without any concerns regarding their ability to adjust to the system

Uh oh, that sounds like Nationalistic Timo Soini-esque talk right there.

“Ouch. For a dizzy moment I thought you meant Paavo V…”

Hey, Paavo V. has already smelled power to be grabbed somewhere. He is coming back from Brussels and getting ready for next Eduskunta elections.

Apparently nothing was broken in Finland at Tarja’s time, so people don’t want to fix it. I have said this before, but to change something here, you need a full scale crisis. Otherwise nobody will bother to move their asses. Considering this, Sauli did very well.

“not just a piece of land but, rather, a culture, a shared state of mind. Letting anyone in without any concerns regarding their ability to adjust to the system”

Uh oh, that sounds like Nationalistic Timo Soini-esque talk right there.

Give me one example of a rich country that has not followed the idea mentioned above in their immigration policy. It’s just common sense, for heaven’s sake, not something Soini invented. Being a libertarian often explains unrealistic ideas but, in my opinion, it should not be regarded as an excuse of total ignorance. So please get your facts right before you start calling me names next time.

And, please, find out what it takes to get a Green Card before you start saying anything about the US immigration policies.

TomiA – The idea of simply ‘recruiting’ educated professionals when the shortages begin to become a problem here is a nice idea, but I should think it’s a bit naive. The rest of the EU countries are going to be thinking they can do the same thing not to mention countries with languages at least in the same linguistic family as their own. And, since you mentioned Russians…. http://www.yle.fi/news/id26680.html I don’t know that it’s very realistic to expect educated professionals, who will be very desireable many other places, to choose Finland first. They might, but it’s a lot more work to adjust than many other places in the EU. Perhaps Finland should begin a plan to deploy young men and women to Russia and Estonia to meet, marry and return to Finland with young, educated professionals in the desired trades.

I think there is one sentence that explains every decision Halonen says about topics concerning Finnish economy. On Punainen Lanka she was asked “What’s wrong in getting rich. Is one man’s wealth away from someone else?” Halonen: “Yes. It always is. It’s away from our ‘common purse’”

And there goes everything that economists have said in the last 50 or so years. I guess Halonen thinks that the amount of wealth in the world hasn’t increased in the last hundred years.

Look for yourself http://www.yle.fi/punainenlanka/ “Vieraana presidenttiehdokas Tarja Halonen” “Tiistaina 24.1.2006 klo 22.05 TV2″ It’s on about 5min 30s

I don’t know that it’s very realistic to expect educated professionals, who will be very desireable many other places, to choose Finland first.

I wrote that Finland might have an advantage – quite surprisingly – not that there for certain wouldn’t be problems ahead. The advantage I talked about was that quite a few people might consider moving to a place that is close to their (previous) home. This kind of a immigration pattern is well known in other parts of the world, think about Mexico and the southern USA, for example. In fact, the same pattern has been at work here in Finland for several years already, and in a few years time the number of immigrant workers, in particular from Estonia, is bound to increase remarkably.

Look for yourself http://www.yle.fi/punainenlanka/

Halonen is not stupid or ignorant, she’s simply talking about the increase of income inequality. But I must admid that she’s a bit vague, not clear enough.

“away from the common purse” – how funny. She herself is rich and getting richer all the time. Another socialist Minister of Foreign Affairs Mr Tuomioja is very, very rich. Do they think people can be fooled like that with their socialist phrases when their deeds speak the opposite?

The West Wing is the smartest TV to have come out of the US ever. You learn a hell of a lot more than watching the Mclaughlin group (people shouting at each other) or Meet the Press (Russert asks pussy questions).

If a few Republicans watched it the collective IQ of America would probably increase by a factor of 10.

“Yeah, and we just read how Helsinki has the same homeless rate as New York City”

No Phil, that’s what YOU said.

Helsinki has 95 people living rough or in emergency shelters, and 1275 in shelters or other institutions. To arrive at your number of over 3,000 you would have to add the 1,900 people who are classified as homeless, but who are actually living (temporarily) with friends or family.

New York, on the other hand has 32,000 people sleeping in the NY shelter systems (including 12,500 children), plus thousands more sleeping on city streets, park benches, and subway trains (and they DO mean ‘thousands’).

Without wishing to be uncharitable, New York does have a more acute problem than Helsinki.

On Punainen Lanka she was asked “What’s wrong in getting rich. Is one man’s wealth away from someone else?” Halonen: “Yes. It always is. It’s away from our ‘common purse’”

So I guess I should be angry at her for being much wealthier than I am?

Helsinki has 95 people living rough or in emergency shelters, and 1275 in shelters or other institutions.

That statistic was from Statistics Finland or some other official source, I guess I’ll take their word for it over yours. Besides, New York City is how many times bigger than Helsinki? We’re talking about homeless-per-capita, not total number of homeless.

I haven’t lived in my native Finland for a few years now, but I still get angry and emotional about having a president who has a history of soviet sympathy and labour activism. Once again, it is obvious that democracy has its’ shortfalls.

Social inequality- humbug! Just because Tarja is supported by the lazy and the inept does not mean the system is flawed.

On immigaration: The greying population will not only cause a need for highly educated pro’s, but also the low skilled blue collar workers will be in big demand. Finland is totally ignoring the huge numbers of immigrants that alreay reside here adn it looks like they already gave up on them. Now can anyone tell me why in 5 years (?) from now an Estonian welder should move to Finland to work 40 hours a week for a meager salary, while he would also be welcomed in many other European countries and there have a higher salary, better acceptance for bad English/German language, better secundary labour terms and probably a shorter working week?

The advantage I talked about was that quite a few people might consider moving to a place that is close to their (previous) home. This kind of a immigration pattern is well known in other parts of the world, think about Mexico and the southern USA, for example.

yeah and Belize closed the border… those mexicans could well be running to France and England but that would be too away from home, their families and the beloved escamoles…

Interesting, as according to the test on the YLE website Halonen had a far firmer stance on the issues closest to me than the candidate I’d expected to vote for in the first round. I looked at the various candidates’ answers and amongst them it would seem that Hautala was the most wary of ticking any extremes anywhere.

Ah well. At least the rich conservative tosser didn’t win, that’s all that matters in the end.

TomiA – While proximity may well work in favour of Russian immigration, I really don’t know that the numbers and expertise are going to come anywhere close to demand. I don’t know if you read that YLE news article today about Russian kids getting bullied and it reportedly being a serious problem, but kids don’t learn that sort of shit by themselves which means they are either getting it from their parents or from society as a whole. But, be that as it may, the Russian language is indo-european, not F-U, so those Russians not from Karelia are going to have to learn Finnish and, for most jobs around here that’s a requirement. A requirement that isn’t something achieved very quickly. Elsewhere in the EU, the I-E languages would be easier to learn and they might have larger communities of immigrants to welcome them. Finland, unless you’re a fennophile, you made the mad choice of marrying a Finn instead of someone from somewhere warm, or have interest in a specific field of expertise found only in Finland, doesn’t really have a lot to recommend itself to the random educated immigrant. I like it here, but if I weren’t married to a Finn, I would have left long ago. Perhaps one day the DOI will look at the numbers of expat/immigrants and find out why they come and why many of them leave within three years.

Only time will tell if they will come or not, but as Majava pointed out, it seems to stretch the limits of imagination to think that they will and will in large enough numbers. I really do hope the government is preparing for the ‘what if they don’t come’ scenario as the ‘pension reform’ of raising the age of retirement is not much of a reform in the face of the numbers of retirees the pension system will need to support in 20 years. I’m reasonably convinced that only those over 50 now will enjoy what we will look back on fondly as the quaint notion of retirement. I sure hope they make the most of it.

“and please find out what it takes to get a Green Card before you start saying anything about US immigration policies”

i can tell you first hand. when i married my wife (a finnish citizen) a few years back, we were told by the US consulate in helsinki that she would have to be supported financially by me for two years before she would be allowed to work in the USA. this would not have been a problem except for one little thing: she likes to work and couldn’t stand the thought of being idle for so long. therefore, we decided to make finland our mutual home. i only had to wait four weeks for my work and residency permit to arrive, which allowed me to become a productive and and happy member of my adopted society almost immediately. i wouldn’t mind if our family lived in the states, but anti-immigrant right wing and libertarian fascists made that reality a little too difficult for our tastes. in case there are any questions about our economic and social potential, i hold 2 BA’s (literature and history) as well as a teacher’s certificate. my wife has a master’s degree in education, specializing in teaching English and Finnish. neither of us has ever been unemployed.

The main reason why niinistö lost was his pro NATO attitude. If he had chosen Halonen’s stance he would be the next president, period. Niinistö shouldn’t blame Halonen for using scare tactic’s. You gave her the weapon to win those six years, so deal with it.

The other reason. Many of those fucking hick’s in keskusta country couldn’t care less about voting on sunday, because their beloved Matti was booted out two weeks back. If it had been Vanhanen facing Tarja on round two you can bet Niinistö’s base would have back’t him up 100%.

Ah well. At least the rich conservative tosser didn’t win, that’s all that matters in the end.

Tarja is richer than Sauli, owning some 500,000€ worth of stocks and real estate in Helsinki (IIRC). Not to mention Tarja’s husband, who is absolutely loaded.

Good, we will have a further 6 years with an internationally representative president, who is well liked abroad! I think that Sauli himself is relieved about all this, not now, but in the long run.

People do not always realise that a social democrat is not the same as a communist. Social democrats can be wealthy, the idea is by high taxation to provide basic welfare for all.It is not relevant to compare the wealth of Tarja and Sauli with each other.

When it comes to homelessness, I would like to point the fact, that in Finland (Scandinavia) things are monitored much more correctly than in some other countries. This together with the fact that Helsinki is not that big city, makes the Finnish statistics more reliable than for example the U.S. ones.

On the other hand, it is sad that we have any homeless people. In some cases, as I know personally, it is a choice- I have talked to some people and they choose a bohemian lifestyle (well, there is the winter thing, of course, so incredible!)

If it had been Vanhanen facing Tarja on round two you can bet Niinistö’s base would have back’t him up 100%.

Like they did 6 years ago?

Come on, they will not vote for Keskusta, as it’s too rural, too “jyväjemmari”, “heinähattu” for them.

I wonder whether Phil had any real hands-on experience in politics in the US? Was he ever a member of any board and taking responsibility? Here in Finland I am not a member of any political party, but after I contacted one, they nominated me as a vice member of a board. Having attended a few meetings I am impressed by the selflessness and analytical skills of every member, whether they are carpenters or business owners. Phil, talk to your preferred party and get committed. If your Finnish skills are satisfactory, it will be a very eye-opening experience. You appear to think that Finland is a polarized society, but you are so wrong.

“…she keeps babbling meaningless one-liners about welfare state (welfare state this, welfare state that…) like a mental patient.”

Just like Phil!

Kimmo, you hit the nail on the head!!!

hfb, so, no future for Finland, racist, xenophobic, cold Finland with a next to impossible language to learn. There really must be something fundamentally wrong with this country if even somebody who “likes it here” has such pessimistic a view. What’s the use of trying, no matter what WEF, Richard Florida or whoever says, we still can’t change the language or climate. Why don’t we all move to a more pleasant environment, say, Italy (not to the northern parts, though, there the climate is pretty much the same as in southern Finland). But, ah, can we learn that non-FU Italian, that’s the question. Probably not;-)

“I guess I should complain like American Democrats do after a close Presidential election and whine that my candidate actually won but -…” But what, you just whined, didn’t you?

What can you say, six more years of the same. Personally I’m most happy on the fact that the race was so close and Halonen and the SDP really got a touch of reality. They were getting really arrogant with suggestions on how we should have elected Halonen in the first round just to save money and then there was the whole SAK “Työvä€n pre$identti” campaign and so on… The fact that Halonen only won with two percent was a clear signal if anything. Also, it was great to see all those “smaller candidates” who actually brought a lot to the discussion. A victory for democracy, as Niinistö rightly put it.

As for the polls, Hesari’s pre-election HS-gallup was more accurate than YLE’s, as it gave the victory to Halonen with 51%-49%. Pretty close.

Don’t whine – participate, the doors are surprisingly open! That would be a good lesson on how – or how not – to earn peoples’ trust.

TomiA – I’m not trying to sound pessimistic, but just trying to be realistic about a problem that does need some good planning. Of course, there may be someone planning solutions, but none of the stories I’ve been reading in the local press have me thinking that there is. The language, lack of or much smaller and perhaps not as well established immigrant communities, fewer jobs and lower pay than other EU countries are real obstacles. The Baltics are part of the EU now and considering they are more economically liberal, have a large base of Russian-speaking people and, from what I’ve been led to understand, more opportunities, Russian immigrants have options with fewer barriers to assimilation right in their own back yard.

Of course, Italy doesn’t sound bad either.

Italy is good – but you know what.When planning your movings, pls consider that even the profs speak really poor English – only the minority speaks good English. Okay, Italian is an easy language to learn, and so on. Southern Italy is very old-fashioned but Northern Italy is more like Central Europe.

I’m not trying to sound pessimistic …

Oh shit, you mean to say that you didn’t even try! I hoped you were being provocative.

Anyway, of course there are all kinds fo plans and reports. Less than two months ago a parliamentary report was presented to the mps, for example.

AS for Baltics, now you are not being realistic. They compete in a different legue for the time being. More opportunities there! Sure … The picture you “liberal-minded” people paint of Finland is strange indeed. Finland is, it really is, one of the most competitive economies in the world, and has been for 50 years or so. This is not an opinion but a fact based on statistics. Finland is one of the most equal countries, it really is, one of the most innovative and so on.

alright, no politics, no facts, just feelings. i was not born here. i moved here recently (within the last 5 years). yes the language is hard. yes, the culture is different. yes it is cold. guess what? i love this fucking country. i have learned the language and i am not ashamed to admit i will never fully master the nuances. sure folks are a little more reserved in their behavior than what i was used to. i am proud to be a finnish taxpayer. finally i am paying into a system that gives back to me. i am guaranteed the same basic healthcare as everyone. my children get a top-notch public education. they get the same free lunch that children of unemployed parents and children of corporate fatheads get. when they are old enough they will study for free at a world class university if they are smart enough (which they will be). they won’t need major subsidies from me nor will they be burdened with insanely huge student loans. during election years politicians discuss issues in depth unlike the talking heads back home. people from all parts of the spectrum get along here. as my sometimes annoying father-in-law says to me on occasion-”everyone is equal in the sauna”-whatever that means. finland rocks. seriously. i can’t imagine a better place to bring up my kids. and fuck conan obrien. i hope he freezes his nuts off…

jenkki immigrant: Fine post. That should read well in Langley. Welcome to Finland. Any more like you back there?

Why do we “desperately need chande”? IMO we are doing quite well.

Good point — Mediocracy is really what’s going on here. It’s true that Finnish presidents are basically cocktail party attendees — but in the business world that’s called marketing. So, the President really is a glorified PR person. To that end, when you look at what Tarja Halonen and Sauli Niinistö were planning to do, Niinistö was the one who was clearly embracing the fact that the marketing aspects of the job should be embraced — and most importantly, outbound marketing (i.e. attracting new business). Halonen, as is generally known, is more interested in ‘internal marketing’. In a business context, a marketer more interested in internal than external marketing is called “fired”…

“That statistic was from Statistics Finland or some other official source, I guess I’ll take their word for it over yours”

Stats Finland gets its numbers from my sources, among others, and what you’re quoting is raw, undifferentiated data – unlike mine, which was differentiated.

If you think looking up a number without knowing where it comes from or what it means is sufficient, then fine, but please say so.

“fuck conan obrien. i hope he freezes his nuts off”

‘Freeze his nuts off’?

I thought he was going to Helsinki, or did I miss something?

@65 Do we need more foreign investment? I thought Finland was doing fine? I mean so many (Jenkki immigrant, TomiA, etc) telling me here that Finland is doing great! You people get me confused

jenkki immigrant, I couldn’t put it better. We moved here 1997. The three first years were tough, and it was most humiliating to use our then under school age children as occasional interpreters. Then we bought our house and last year we got a fantastic place at lake Puula so I suppose we aren’t leaving anytime soon.

“…it is sad that we have any homeless people”

Yes it is, NP.

But happily the rate is decreasing.

“Do we need more foreign investment?”

Yes, because we want more money in R&D.

Is one man’s wealth away from someone else?” Halonen: “Yes. It always is. It’s away from our ‘common purse’”

So in other words I have now a presidential sanctioning to do jack shit to increase my wealth. Maybe I should stop working so that the common purse feels good.

jenkki immigrant, nice to hear that it doesn’t have to be so gloomy. I’m pretty sure you didn’t vote for the Republicans back in the US;-) Perhaps this country just isn’t suitable for everybody …

By Phil:
With such a close election as this, Finland could be considered a very much polarized nation.

It’s interesting how a person who 6 years ago thought “Finland was a country located in central Africa which is now known as the Democratic Republic of Congo…” is making strangely unwitty remarks about the political life in Finland. Sarcasm aside, you clearly know very little of Finnish politics. Even less than one would expect of a foreigner who’s been here for 3,5 years…

As many people have already noted, there was practically no difference between the candidates’ opinions on the second round (which was a shame). I have great doubts that you understood even half of the conversation nor were able to understand the cultural references that were made on the election debates.

Also, the distribution of votes was nearly identical 6 years ago, which you obviously didn’t know before you posted. It pays to do some research before you go on with your political “analysis”.

When the pollsters say “plus or minus 3 percentage points”, they should seriously shorten that to “minus 3 percentage points”.

First of all, media uses “the marginal of error” recklessly in their statistics. They should add some more information for it to make sense. But let’s not get into that right now. I think it’s pretty amazing that with a sample of 1000-3000 people one can get very accurate information of over 3 000 000 voters’ future behaviour. George Gallup was a clever man.

You also seem to be convinced that there is a substantial media bias in Finland. It has been funny to acknowledge, that whomever you talk to, left-wing, right-wing or centrist, everyone seems to think that Helsingin Sanomat is biased to the opposite direction of their political beliefs.

Of course it is important to critically consider everything your read or hear on the (be it corporate or state owned) media. Recently you made a proposition that YLE was biased because it is governed by the state. The TV licence system is precisely there to refrain the sitting government of tampering with YLE’s funding. The members of parliament (representing different parties) who make the govermental decisions are openly listed here. There is virtually no chance that a single party could control the journalists in YLE nowadays. 1970s was different. I personally welcome you to the 21st century.

If YLE has an agenda, it is made by the journalists and they don’t have to answer to the prime minister. Infact, the election 1-on-1 interviews made by Juha-Pekka Rantala were widely criticized by the public for being too hard on the candidates (who happened to include the prime minister and the sitting president). That doesn’t seem biased to me. Hidden power structures aside, to claim that YLE’s journalists are controlled by the government is mockery of Finnish democracy.

I might’ve criticized you a bit too hard here. Once in a while, you might want to take those ideological glasses of your’s away for a moment and try to use your outsider’s position to really see what’s behind it all. I promise I’ll try to do the same if I ever get the chance.

Oh and, I didn’t vote for Tarja on the first round. I was just generally upset on behalf of the Finnish people

“You also seem to be convinced that there is a substantial media bias in Finland. It has been funny to acknowledge, that whomever you talk to, left-wing, right-wing or centrist, everyone seems to think that Helsingin Sanomat is biased to the opposite direction of their political beliefs.”

Yeah, Hesari has that problem. If you think Phil is bad, talk to some guys in the university… Back something like ten years ago their editorials were polite, balanced and boring. They were accused of not taking a stand, or their lack of agenda was presented as evidence of a hidden agenda… So they started to get bit more opionated, which also lead to people actually reading the editorials, and unsurprisingly people complained even more.

>Yeah, and we just read how Helsinki has the same homeless rate as New
>York City.

Yeah, and if you libertarian d*ckheads had your way it would be even worse. Survival of the fittest, no social security and all that jazz, right?

Deeply divided? wait for the next presidential approval ratings, you’ll be gobsmacked.
Sometimes I have my doubts about bothering to vote, but then someone like ’51 % are idiots’ (post 6) shows me that even if there’s nothing much to support on one side, the other side deserves to lose.
And to keep on losing. Losers. Neener neener neener.

“AS for Baltics, now you are not being realistic. They compete in a different legue for the time being. More opportunities there! Sure … The picture you “liberal-minded” people paint of Finland is strange indeed. Finland is, it really is, one of the most competitive economies in the world, and has been for 50 years or so. This is not an opinion but a fact based on statistics. Finland is one of the most equal countries, it really is, one of the most innovative and so on.”

TomiA – *sigh* You know, I keep seeing this ‘most competitive’, ‘most equal’ and ‘most innovative’ economy…propaganda for lack of a better word…all around and just what does that mean and who benefits.

Again, I think you are straying off my original point which was that given the numbers of retirees vs. the projected number of employed in 20 years, there are either going to be drastic budget cuts, drastic tax hikes or an influx of immigrants that would dramatically raise the 2% non-finn population to a likely disturbing level if one is to believe the HS poll that 75% of Finland thinks there are enough outsiders already.

*sigh* You know, I keep seeing this ‘most competitive’, ‘most equal’ and ‘most innovative’ economy…propaganda for lack of a better word…all around and just what does that mean and who benefits.

Sigh, as I wrote, those were not my opinions, let alone propaganda but facts based on statistics – or international comparisons based on statistics. Here are a few examples: Finland’s econmical growth during the past 50 years has been close to world-record rate. Finland’s income distribution is, or at least used to be the last time I saw the figures, more equal than anywhere else. The same goes for property. Innovation can be measured for example by patents per capita. Finland is in top three. And no, this is not Finnish propaganda but facts based on international statistics, believe it or not.

Who benefits? Well, perhaps you can figure that out by yourself.

As for straying off your original point, well, Finland does have the same kind of problem as the rest of the OECD countries, but perhaps the situation isn’t so gloomy as you paint it – at least in relation to many other countries doing even worse than Finland. After all, we have a tradition of doing whatever has to be done. If the media, politicians, and business men start telling us that things have to change they probably will. This looks like sheepish behavior and perhaps it is, but then again a large majority of the Finns actually trust the system. They don’t feel that they have been betrayed by it as in some other countries – well, that’s the way I see it.

TomiA – I’ve not looked at those statistics, but generally distrust numbers, especially superlatives, tossed about in the media. The US is supposedly the richest country in the world, too. Lies, damn lies and statistics. Equal income is great, but it’s not really what I’m getting at. I’d also guess that if you removed Nokia, a very American and patent driven style company, out of the data that the patents statistic would likely change dramatically. The US has patents on everything…not that it means anything for immigration.

And, again, you miss my point so I’ll try to be more blunt. We’re not talking about comparing Finland to other OECD countries, we’re talking about Finland. When you have 75% of the population who say there are either enough or too many immigrants in Finland already, expecting a mass immigration is unrealistic if only for the problems that would arise from their being unwelcome.

Perhaps all Finns do trust their government and that’s great, but why suffer an avoidable situation if only because no one was willing to ask questions about the obvious and long known problem of the retiring baby boomers? It’s might be a very gloomy future if the solution is expecting mass immigration to solve the labor shortage in the coming years.

I don’t doubt that the dearth of political dialogue so many Finns I know lament is because you can’t challenge cherished myths or statistics with common sense and expect a reasonable conversation so few bother. Of course, the US is on the other side of the spectrum where there is so much criticism that, well, no one gives a fuck anymore.

“a large majority of the Finns actually trust the system. They don’t feel that they have been betrayed by it as in some other countries – well, that’s the way I see it”

Exactly! In contrast, it’s extraordinary the way Anglos can “hate” their governments. 3-4 years ago, I saw an interview with Rice, and she said she realised when she was young that “the government is the enemy”, but somehow it didn’t stop her joining the hated government

Maybe looking stupid isn’t so bad, as long as you can be important at the same time, in her mind?

“The main reason why niinistö lost was his pro NATO attitude”

I don’t think he has a properly developed opinion on this, but he allowed himself to be presented as if he did.

Nato was always just a fear-of-Russia organization, but without any member understanding Russia. Unfortunately, Sauli still doesn’t seem to understand this – or if he does, he isn’t telling.

hfb, This is obviously not going anywhere. I mean, I’ve told you why I think there is no reason to be too pessimistic, and then you repeat your previous arguments telling we are in deep shit;-)

(Nevertheless I have to correct: I didn’t say that all Finns would trust the government; not “all” and not just “the government”. And, sorry to say, but I trust well established statistics more than you gut feeling. And the baby-boomer problem is discussed extensively by … well within about every institution: media, think tanks, trade unions, the parliament and so on. And the examples, oh sorry, propaganda I gave regarding Finland’s positive sides were, well, examples. Try Richard Florida’s or Manuel Castells’ ideas about Finland if you are interested in a different and more comprehensive view on innovative – and tolerant! – Finns.)

By the end of 2004 more than 180 000 people were either foreigners or foreign born, and the number is increasing rapidly, particularly because of Russian immigration. And why wouldn’t it be increasing rapidly? Just compare the standard of living between Russia and Finland, Viipuri and Kuopio. – But of course these are just statistics. Probably you claim that the number is actually decreasing;-)

http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/index.html (in Finnish, lots of other stuff about immigration elsewhere on the site, too)

Oh! TomiA, hfb, I did not know you were still going on here

TomiA, you say the Finnish authorities are aware of the problems ahead and the proof is that all kinds of intitutions are talking about it. Perhaps it’s a bit too early to say, but I am afraid that is what it always be: just talking. See how this and the previous governments have handled the massive unemployment: They talked about it, established work groups and committees, etc. What measures have been implemented that had an effect? None! I’m afraid the problems for the coming decades will be handled in the same way.

Majava, The difference is that the baby-boomer problem affects pretty much all parties, “institutions”, while unemployment didn’t.

More and more foregners are moving to Finland. The problem is that they, perhaps, are not the kind of people we’d like them to be, not highy educated and so forth.

The English-speaking countries get to pick the cream of the immigrants, then other big countries, and lastly small countries with strange languages, like Finland. Looks like pretty gloomy, doesn’t it.

Then again, Finland does have certain advantages … but let’s not go into that anymore.

Probably we should make English our second language … and after a while first.

More and more foregners are moving to Finland. The problem is that they, perhaps, are not the kind of people we’d like them to be, not highy educated and so forth.
What about not speaking perfect Finnish? I think that is the only reason that unemployment among immigrants is so high, besides the simple fact that they are foreigners. But that problem does not need any special attention, if you ask me. If the government(s) would work towards an unemploymetn rate of around 4-5% This problem would be solved. Absurd demands for language abilities would disappear, like many other insane demands native Finns also face, btw. We would all benefit from a low unemployment figure! The problems in Finland are not finland specific. You can see them in any country with high unemployment. The only difference is that in other countries this is viewed as a major problem and if the government is not addressing these problems, they’re sent home (see Germany). Not so here…

And yes, Finland does certainly have some advantages that will make some want to move here. The question is just how many, who and will it be enough?

And yes, Finland does certainly have some advantages that will make some want to move here. The question is just how many, who and will it be enough?

I just had to add the creativity index rankings from Richard Florida’s book “Flight of the Creative Class: The New Global Competition Talent”. These countries have most of the “three Ts” (Technology, Talent, Tolerance): Sweden, Japan, Finland, the USA. These are, according to Florida’s thesis, the countries wich most likely can get memebers of the “creative class” to immigrate.

(Amazon’s “search inside the book” feature is amazing. One can read whole books online.)

Jobs and opportunities bring people to Finland, not statistics and surveys.