Heh, who could have thought it? The Finnish Alliance (Suomalaisuuden Liitto) gets the New York Times to promote their views…

As for the swedish quotas for law students, the idea is to provide the court system with the badly needed swedish-speaking lawyers and judges. Problem is, most of the new lawyers dissapear to more well-paid jobs in the private sector. They have a lot of options, exactly because they are bilingual.

Americans are masters at politicizing and controversializing issues. Can we import one, since someone should controversialize this “requiring Swedish skills” thing.

We control the media, you’ll never stop us!

“There is still a feeling that Swedish speakers are the civilized ones and we are the peasants,” Mr. Tala said.

Ummm… I see. What’s this Suomalaisuuden liitto exactly? Is their sole purpose uprooting the Swedish language from Finland?

“tend to be wealthier” Old “Svenskatalande bättrefolk” myth. Actually there are proportionally more Swedish speaking farmers and fishermen than Finnish speaking.

“tend to be wealthier” Old “Svenskatalande bättrefolk” myth.

A funny thing about this fact is that it’s promoted by Swedish speakers in a most pompous fashion. (They do like to brag a lot.) But when a Finnish speaker brings it up, it suddenly becomes a “myth”.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Swedish speakers and I consider the Finnish Alliance a bunch of raving fanatics. I am not that convinced of the necessity of “pakkoruotsi”, though.

Hmm… I’m a Swedish speaking Finn, so according to this article it means that…. Wohoo! I’m RICH, biatch! *honks horn*

(But, hey where’s my money? )

Suomalaisuuden liitto is an old organisation, founded in the 1800s to promote Finnish culture and language. However, in the 1980s it was taken over by nationalist extremists, and now it is just a small fringe group.

Hmm… I’m a Swedish speaking Finn, so according to this article it means that…. Wohoo! I’m RICH, biatch! *honks horn*

Of course, nobody is claiming that each and every Swedish speaker is loaded. Just that they tend to be wealthier. Which is all right, denying it is just a bit silly.

As for fishermen, it is hardly surprising that Swedish speakers are overrepresented: the coast is mostly Swedish speaking, hence the term “rantaruotsalaiset”. As for farmers, they are not exactly destitute – especially the Swedish speaking ones with huge 100-hectare farms. The subsidies are area-based, after all.

(But, hey where’s my money? )

Fråga din pappa.

Looking at the tax information of 2004: if swedish speaking finns tend to be wealthier, they don’t seem to be represented in large quantities in the top 50 of this country. Not very many there with swedish names but it seems that this nation’s richest are mostly men. Where are the women? Maybe that’s not as big an issue as what language a person speaks.

Looking at the tax information of 2004: if swedish speaking finns tend to be wealthier, they don’t seem to be represented in large quantities in the top 50 of this country.

Look at the most relevant list, #3, i.e. the ones who are worth the most and then claim that 3 people (6%) on that list are Swedish speakers.

The ones on list #1 are CEOs and other lowly wage slaves. The ones on list #2 are mainly the ones who got lucky in the stock market bubble (of course, heirs and heiresses are well represented, thus more Swedish speakers there as well). The ones on list #3 own this country. Also check the position of the decimal point on these lists.

You got me there mr/ms/mrs (more or less anonymous) Freeridin’ Franklin, I didn’t look at the other lists too closely. Silly me. But then again, I don’t really give a rats ass. There seems to be too much old feelings (dating back several hundrerd years) in these discussions for them to be objective.

I guess that if over 6% of the top 50 are Fenno-Ugric peasants, it means that bättre folk are not overrepresented. Go figure. I counted 31 Swedish names (with either the surname or both first and middle names being Swedish) on list #3. That translates to 62%. Overrepresentation? No f-g way…

Besides, many of those with Finnish names were very recent additions: people like Lesonen, Hiidenheimo etc. who cashed in on the IT bubble in the late 90′s.

“Vi är sååå fattiga, farsan har bara fyra segelbÃ¥tar…”

Everyone knows that all Swedish speaking Finns keep a bag of gold around their necks at all times, and a fake bag of gold too just in case some Finnish speaker tries to steal it.

“A funny thing about this fact is that it’s promoted by Swedish speakers in a most pompous fashion. (They do like to brag a lot.) But when a Finnish speaker brings it up, it suddenly becomes a “myth”.”

That’s just plain BS. Sure there are some snobbish Finnish-Swedes, even “we” have our own word for them; “Grani bor”, even if they’re not from Grankulla, “Look at that Grani bo acting like he’s all that”. But to say that Finnish-Swedes promote this concept of “bättre folk” or that we pompously parade around claiming to be richer is just a fabrication of your imagination.

“I guess that if over 6% of the top 50 are Fenno-Ugric peasants, it means that bättre folk are not overrepresented. Go figure. I counted 31 Swedish names (with either the surname or both first and middle names being Swedish) on list #3. That translates to 62%. Overrepresentation? No f-g way…

Besides, many of those with Finnish names were very recent additions: people like Lesonen, Hiidenheimo etc. who cashed in on the IT bubble in the late 90’s.

“Vi är sååå fattiga, farsan har bara fyra segelbÃ¥tar…” ”

So Finnish-Swedes should be ashamed for doing good for themselfs?

Why oh why did greatgrandpa decide to change to Finnish?
I could’ve been rich, if only.
Would it work if I cahnged my name and started speaking Swedish?

Are there any Jewish Swedish-Finns out there? Wow, they’d be REALLY rich.

A big part of the Finnish jewish community (around 1500 people, mainly in Helsinki and Turku) are Swedish speaking. I am not awere of any statistics, but few people I know are rather well-off.

Sorry to relocate for a moment, but I think Belgium’s German-speakers would like to boast that top spot, or at least vie for it.

I had great fun at a Finland Svensk – please excuse any spelling mistakes – wedding last year and I think one of the conversations a Swedish-speaking Finn had with a (n English) friend of mine about what the SSFs thought of the FSFs is too rude to repeat here. In any case, it was fun seeing the SSF best man being heckled by the FSFs as he mixed up his esittääs with his esitelläs.

“As for the swedish quotas for law students, the idea is to provide the court system with the badly needed swedish-speaking lawyers and judges.”

Well, yes and no. The quotas are there because Helsingin Yliopisto is the only university where you can study law in Swedish.
For those who wish to study law in Finnish only, there is Lapin Yliopisto, Tampereen Yliopisto and Turun Yliopisto.
Hence the quotas.
Seems fair to me.

Must have been a slow newsday for the New York Times.

But to say that Finnish-Swedes promote this concept of “bättre folk” or that we pompously parade around claiming to be richer is just a fabrication of your imagination.

Of course, only a small fraction do. (And most of them probably live in Grani).

So Finnish-Swedes should be ashamed for doing good for themselfs?

I have been saying exactly the opposite! I am reacting to the age-old “poor fishers and farmers” cop-out that pops up every time that these de facto affirmative action policies for an already privileged minority come up.

FWIW, I’ve known, and still do, several Swedish speakers. Many of them were stinking rich, others were regular folks, practically all of them great people.

Nope
The Maoris top that list. Their spending a lifetime singing and dancing in straw skirts is protected by law and well revarded financially. Norwegian Lapps comes a close second. They are very well paid by the government for doing evironmental crimes, their low employment rates and their horrid alcohol consumption. We in Sweden pampered our African and Middle Eastern immigrant groups as well as we could. But these are clever people, and have taken the lead. Ethnic Swedes are definitly second class people, even if still leading by numbers.
I think Finlands Swedish population will be your lesser problem in 10 years time. By the way, I have met some “finsk-svenska” , they semed quite industrious, sober and well behaving? I do not get the problem here?

I think the author of the NY Times article fails to understand the basic difference between quotas for Swedish speakers in Finnish universities and affirmative action in the US. Affirmative action exists to provide preferential treatment for underprivileged minorities and to promote diversity in universities. This is not the purpose of language quotas in Finland. They exist because Finland is officially a bilingual country and as such, has legal obligations to provide certain services in both official languages. This is why there is a need to educate a certain number of Swedish-speaking medical doctors and lawyers.

And by the way, the quotas are not for people who speak Finnish or Swedish as their native language. Anyone who possesses the necessary language skills can apply in the Swedish-language (or the Finnish-language) quota. In fact, quite a few Finnish speakers are enrolled in Swedish-language programs in different universities each year.

Donner said in the article that he’s a “bad Swedish-Finn”. Earlier he has claimed not to be a Swedish-Finn at all. After all, his “family came from Germany” and had nothing to do with Sweden. Well, he said this in Finnish and “suomenruotsalainen” means literally Finland’s Swede – and not Swedish-Finn which could mean a Finn speaking Swedish.

Anyway, it’s impossible to know with certainty anybody’s ethnicity in Finland by looking at the name – or even mother tongue in certain cases. A lot of Finns whose family has never spoken Swedish have Swedish names (there must hundreds of thousands of such people), and vice versa, many “traditionally” Swedish-speaking families have Finnish names. Then there are people – like, say, Sibelius – who just don’t care about these kinds of issues.

“After all, his “family came from Germany” and had nothing to do with Sweden. Well, he said this in Finnish and “suomenruotsalainen” means literally Finland’s Swede – and not Swedish-Finn which could mean a Finn speaking Swedish.”

Actually, many Swedish-speaking families in Finland are originally from Russia, the Baltic countries etc. After 1917, when Russian emigrants – many of them aristocrats – came to Finland, many of them became Swedish-speakers.

“As for the swedish quotas for law students, the idea is to provide the court system with the badly needed swedish-speaking lawyers and judges.”

Does this mean that the 4% minority commits so much crimees?

Does this mean that the 4% minority commits so much crimees?

The minority is 6%. The issue is not so much with crime, but rather with divorce and inheritance: who gets the sailboat fleet and the 400 m2 mansions in Grani.

OTOH, the prime suspect in the most famous murder case in Finland that was reopened after over 40 years was a Swedish speaker. Incredibly, one of the screwups by the investigators back then was that they didn’t interview some potential Swedish-speaking witnesses solely because none of the cops spoke Swedish. I think that the quotas are in place mainly to avoid situations like this.

For the impaired (regarding the 1st paragraph): strictly

Even though I’m a swedish-speaking finn, I think I agree with most of the points brought up by Freeridin’ Franklin in this thread . Unfortunately.

In THE specific case – language quotas for university students – I think this whole matter goes as wrong as it can. The reason why e.g. medical doctors are educated under quotas is, (at least according to what is presented to the general public) “that swedish-speaking finns should be able to get treatment by a doctor who speaks their language”. Now, why is it then the case that e.g. in the place my mother was born, which is originally an almost 100% swedish community (this has changed a bit lately, but then who cares), there is a doctor who is not among these people chosen for medical studies based on the said quota. The “quota doctors” mostly seem to work in Helsinki, where they probably do serve mostly finnish-speaking finns anyway. And given that the reason for “language quotas” is a belief that finnish-speaking doctors cannot treat swedish-speakers well enough, then why is it obvious that swedish-speakers can treat finnish-speakers?

I think that if you introduce these kinds of quotas (which in practice mean that swedish-speaking finns get their medical education more easily than finnish-speaking finns) based on some kind of motivation that has to do with provision of medical doctors (or attorneys, or whatever) for swedish-speaking finns, they should be supplemented by some kind of obligation to actually serve in such a role, after your graduation. Otherwise, what’s the point with these quotas?

they should be supplemented by some kind of obligation to actually serve in such a role, after your graduation. Otherwise, what’s the point with these quotas?

I tend to agree. At least doctors have an obligation to work in the public sector anyway. I don’t think that extending this obligation for “quota Swedish speakers” to work for a predominantly Swedish-speaking client base in the public sector would be inconvenient. Then again, I feel that the Swedish-speaking community is quite self-sufficient. The “duck pond” doesn’t need the help of the state to preserve their culture and language (which I consider well worth conserving). Hey, I guess I found something libertarians and I could agree with.

“At least doctors have an obligation to work in the public sector anyway.”

Do they? That’s news for me. But like you said, IF they have this obligation, then why not extend it to the “quota” doctors, lawyers etc. After all, that’s the whole point of educating these quota people. Why not give them a bit of the stick, since they’ve already received the whole carrot.

“Then again, I feel that the Swedish-speaking community is quite self-sufficient. The “duck pond” doesn’t need the help of the state to preserve their culture and language (which I consider well worth conserving).”

Agreed. I’m – like I said – a swedish-speaking finn, and would not want to give up my culture easily. But then again, I do not see any reason for preserving this culture by force, if it does not survive without providing the wealthiest (and healthiest) part of the populace, with extreme favours, w.r.t. the general population. This will not work in the long-run.

“Hey, I guess I found something libertarians and I could agree with.”

Ditto. One of the very first times, IF it is the case that libertarians support this.

The saddest part about the talk around this NYT article is what it tells about the quality of discussion of the language issue in Finland. The article is, from my point of view, very objective and presents a very mild opinion from Uosukainen, which I think most rational people could agree with.

Now what happens here? We get fanatical Fenno-Swedes trying to explain that this is propaganda from Suomalaisuuden Liitto, or some people even spinning it so that the article “praises” their position. This makes me feel as if I were living in a freaking Orwellian novel. Swedish is double-plus-good, see, and if you don’t agree, you’re just intolerant and need more “education”!

I need to second a lot of other people here that this is indeed one of the few points libertarians have going for them. Sometimes the concept of tolerance is hijacked and used to impose someone else’s idea of national identity upon others. If you disagree with the systematic government “re-education” of people to become more acceptable to the Nordists, then you need to just shut up.

For once there was something agreeable here, the purpose of this blog seems to be to just criticize everything that makes Finland worth living in by looking through very American, survival-of-the-fittest sunglasses

“I am a strong advocate of liberty, individuality, equality, and tolerance.”

Pls add one more word on the list: Democracy and for those reasons Finns should have the right to choose what they want to do with the compulsatory Swedish language. Free world, Free Speech, Freedom of Choise and free elections.(Free thinking) See following articles:

http://pakkoruotsi.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=worldtopics&action=display&thread=1162724537

http://pakkoruotsi.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=generalinfoonfinland&action=display&thread=1162404939

Your comments appreciated

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Poor Anton, hasn’t got a clue. The young man doesn’t understand that the only languages with “roots” in Finland are FINNISH and SAAMI.

Swedish in Finland was artificially introduced, is artificially imposed, and artificially maintained using vast sums of money from selfish corrupt persons who should be tried and punished in a court of human rights. Most of the 4% “wannabe Swedes” in Finland are ethnic Finns who just decided to declare themselves Swedish.

“The freedom of choice for Finns is reduced because they have to study the mandatory Swedish language.

Language choice society’s goal is to promote:

– freedom of choice of languages in schools
– reduction of unnecessary language demands in public service
– national action against these issues ”

Don’t you think it is perverse that we as a majority in our own country have to set up an informal organization to free us from the compulsory SWEDISH language studies ?? Our politicians are “corrupted” and have double standards: They speak for “bilingual Finland” and not even the prime minister himself speaks Swedish )
The whole thing is such a ridiculous tabu, that something should be done to end this kind of hypocrisy.
WE ARE NOT A BILINGUAL COUNTRY IN REAL LIFE.
http://www.thelocal.se/9292/

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