Ah, but we have a cool movie called “Independance Day”.

Is yours the Star Wreck movie?

I’m a Finnish citizen, but I’ve been a member of Helsinki Finnish American Society since I was twelwe. Of my own free will, my parents had nothing to do with it. I just always felt more like home in American culture and mindset than the Finnish one.

I guess this way of celebrating independence is one of the things which make me feel more “American” than “Finnish”. Religious, ceremonial and because of the World War II (note, not that much of the civil war!) – just simply sad.

And all the talk about how the presidential ball is the place to be – hell, what options do people really have? If I’ll ever have a chance, I’ll throw a party on December 6th that will top that little get together by far.

What’s this Helsinki Finnish American Society all about?

http://www.sayl.fi

There’s lots of activity, but mostly for a bit older people and their kids. Childcare, bookstore and bunch of other stuff (we have different clubs that visit companies, go to theatre etc).

GM – is it mostly Finns interested in U.S., or Americans interested in Finland?

Finnish independence day really is something You said Phil. We should have a “National Day” too, preferably in summer. It could be more positive celebration like vappu, juhannus and new years eve.

On the other hand, I may have second thoughts about that…

I wonder if America’s independence day was much more like Finland’s, many years ago? I’m sure it was.

I guess this way of celebrating independence is one of the things which make me feel more “American” than “Finnish”. Religious, ceremonial and because of the World War II (note, not that much of the civil war!) – just simply sad.

Well said and I wonder how the celebrations before 1939 have been?! It’s a shame that the “celebration” is so gloomy and apart from the parade of dresses, is all about the war, veterans and such. Also YLE news’ headline is having an undertone of living in fear: “Finland Celebrates 88 Years of Independence”. Like saying pfffft, we made it another year… I would rather say that 88 years ago a this nation got it’s long deserved independence and that deserves a party. There are other days to commemorate the wars and honour the dead and living veterans.

Well, we have the finnish flag day, when everybody is casual, barbequing, getting drunk and drowning. It is also known as juhannus.

If the republic survives for 100 years more without any major crisis threatening its very existence, I bet the 6. december will be more casual also. If the opening of the bicycling season in Oulu is advertised in february, why not go picnic in december. Just another manifestation of the good old finnish “screw the weather” attitude.

Off-Topic: Has a homosexual/lesbian brought a date of the same sex to the Presidential Ball?

Phil,

Both, actually. But mainly since the organization is based in Finland, Americans are a minority.

And I can answer to the question number 10. Yes, they have. Couple of SETA (Sexual Equity) Secretary Generals have been there with their partners as recently as last year.

…and even before Tarja’s time. I remember Tove Jansson being there with her significant other.

I noticed when I lived overseas that the Americans are a simple people. It is a nation of simple pleasures – barbequeing, big tits, sports… There is little room for philosophy, for instance. Perhaps that’s why the 4th of July is such a juvenile occasion?

No, perhaps 4th of July is such a juvenile occasion, because they’re proud of their independence and know that they pretty much saved the Europe in WWI and WWII.

Don’t be a stupid, you moron.

“because they’re proud of their independence and know that they pretty much saved the Europe in WWI and WWII.”

Thanks for giving us our freedom in WW2, I really appreciate it.

#12: It could be that Tove Jansson and the significant other (i.e. graphic artist Tuulikki Pietilä) both had personal invitations, though.

#14-15: Back to your history books. The U.S. did not exactly singlehandedly win the WW1 nor the WW2. And mh – the cynical historical truth is that military help from Germany played a major role when Finland kept her independence. Remember, at that point the U.S. and the Soviet Union were allies. The U.S. gave significant material help to Stalin under the years 1941-44.

I think mh was being sarcastic.

And as for G.M. – “don’t be a stupid” – it seems that your reasoning goes hand in hand with your knowledge of history. I’m laughing at your comments with my friend this very moment.

Since we touched the subject, I must add that the American way of doing things is evil. First they helped Stalin hold on to power and oppress millions of people. Then, only a few years later, they came up with McCarthyism and destroyed the lives of so many innocents. What a rotten state!

Sad, I can barely remember the President’s Ball 2 years ago… Are the Balls any good or another thing to watch on primetime? I got a concussion that day in Levi..

Suomen… We are Evil, that is the USA all right.

And don’t forget the oil, we found in Haiti, Somalia, Panama, and the big one Yugoslavia.

But then you forgot to go to Darfur Sudan, and stop the Ethnic Cleansing by Government and Militia Forces. But heck, don’t bother to go, they are now all dead.

Why did you not go? Did you forget? After all, the Evil one was waiting for your leadership.

17.

Have a good laugh. But keep in mind, I wasn’t talking about Finland, but Europe. Just the little things, like D-day and liberating Germany and France for the most the part. Finland lost the war by joining Nazis in arms, so that has probably something to do with the overall sadness when talking about independence. And to Söderberg – of course U.S. didn’t single-handedly win the WW1/2. I didn’t claim it did, just noted that they pretty much saved what is now understood as Europe from being “clensed” by the Nazis and their ilk. I know the history, I just don’t share the common Finnish viewpoint of looking at the history, since it tends to deny some facts about what was going on in Europe and just praise how Finland did all by itself “independently” only with some help from God and Marshall Mannerheim.

Pssh, go back to history books – those Finnish ones that neglect the facts and just praise our leaders and their cunning tactics? Talking about Finland’s part World War II (there’s more diversity when talking about civil war) with a typical Finnish person is like listening to people talk about all the presidents after Paasikivi and before Koivisto.

8.

Ditto. That’s what I think it should be, also. Celebrate the independence because we _are_ independent and not just sob about what might have been if we would have lost it in the aftermath of the Finnish civil war or World War II.

‘they pretty much saved Europe in WWI and WWII’ (GM)
If we want to get into that, if the US hadn’t bankrolled the French, the WWI would have ended in a German victory in 1915.
No Somme, no Passchendaele, no poison gas, no tanks.
No Russian Revolution. No Nazis. A much more boring 20th century. Thanks ever so much, guys.

“I noticed when I lived overseas that the Americans are a simple people.”

Simple as in they make a simple generalization of over 250 million people based on one brief experience? Well, maybe some are, but to go as far as to say “Americans” are simple people is, well, a pretty fucking simple thought.

“It is a nation of simple pleasures – barbequeing, big tits, sports…”

What, so Finland doesn’t enjoy barbequing, big tits and sports?
[see makkara, salatrakkaat and hockey]

“There is little room for philosophy, for instance.”

You mean like John Dewey, Frank Lloyd Wright, Ralph Waldo Emerson, T. S. Eliot, Thomas Edison, Henry David Thoreau, Henry Ford, Benjamin Franklin, Samuel Morse, ect.

What does Finland have to offer? The great Matti Nykanen?

“Perhaps that’s why the 4th of July is such a juvenile occasion?”

Apparently, the Finnish definition of “juvenile” means smiling and having fun. By those standards, I would say that Finland is the least juvenile country I have ever lived in.

You, sir, are an ass.

“Finland lost the war by joining Nazis in arms, so that has probably something to do with the overall sadness when talking about independence.”

What the ****? Sadness? The whole thing is celebrated quite differently here than in the US but sadness? I really don’t get you.

There is nothing to be ashamed of our
alliance with the germans. We did what we had to when the russians attacked. It’s not like there was an option to get American troops to fight here but we just decided to join the Germans because we are..err..evil. We lost the winter and continuation wars to the russians, but I fail to see what it has got to do with things that were going on in central Europe.

Ps. I don’t approve killing millions of jews. That was never done in Finland. Prove me wrong.

You people have never thrown a “pikkujoulu” party for your friends on December 6th in your home?
Pfft, weirdos.
Besides, the time around December 6th is major office Christmas party time anyway, so one day vegging in front of the TV watching silly pompous people parade in ugly dresses is very welcome.

@perkele
Suomen mies is Finnpundit’s long-lost retarded half-brother. Be nice to him.

Hi Suomen Mies,

WWII alliances were made out of the realities of the day. With the Nazi advances as they were, there was no other choice but to allign with the USSR in order to take out the Nazis.

Concerning POD’s statements (22),which are more cynical than anything else, the war might have been minimized, but at the expence of French and other minor states independence. Besides, its not war that is ultimately the greates killer of mankind, but by states against their own peoples. More people have died at the hands of thier own governments than in wars since the last century.

State murder -212 000 000 , Killed in war – 41 000 000.

As for McCarthyism. The dear senator, with time, has been proven to have been right, with major soviet moles in the highest levels of US government to have been uncovered in Russian archives since the end of the cold war. His failings were not in the material unvovered, but in his personality. There should have been other highly visible prosecuters as well.

KGS59:

You were doing so well until you referred to Sen. McCarthy as a “dear senator” and proceeded to support his ideas and actions.

Ignorance. Pure ignorance on your part.

Finland was a co-beligerant with Germany, and never officially politically alligned itself with Nazi ideology and its ultimate aims. Even though President Ryti (a hero if there ever was one) signed a political alliance with the Nazis towards the end of the war, he did so in his OWN name, and not in the governments, and only because he had to, in order to secure the necessary arms needed to defend Finland against the Soviet’s last major assault through the Isthmus.

Those weapons proved to be crucial in fending off that major assault, especially in Ihantala.

In a more perfect scenario, the US and its allies would have included Finland, taking on both the socialist facists(Nazis)and the socialist communists(Soviets), defeating both totalitarianist ideologies in Europe and in the Pacific (Japanese). The world would have been better off.

I disagree. What I am saying about McCarthy, is that he was more right than he was wrong,about Soviet inflitration in the US, while admitting that his tactics (demagoguery)did not serve his cause justice.

By the way, the term ‘McCarthyism’ was first published in the Communist “Daily Worker’ being coined in the bowels of NKVD headquarters at 3 Dzerzhinsky Square in Moscow.

But keep in mind, I wasn’t talking about Finland, but Europe. Just the little things, like D-day and liberating Germany and France for the most the part.

Ah, a new definition of Europe.

Finland lost the war by joining Nazis in arms, so that has probably something to do with the overall sadness when talking about independence.

And the Americans are celebrating happily because they helped Stalin to enslave half of Europe? (Sorry, apparently the eastern part doesn’t belong to Europe anymore.)

In fact, if the same standards are applied to both the USA and Finland it’s the USA that was the bigger sinner in my humble opinion. But, of course, that’s not how it’s supposed to be done – not in Hollywood movies, at least, the ones in which you apparently look for guidance.

And before Mapleleaf or sombody else not liking Finland says I just can’t face the reality: yes, the Finns have done their share of nasty things in the past. Google for East Karelia and the WWII, for example, or how the Jews were treated during the war (not the Finnish ones, though).

@KGS59,
the governments killing their people (whatever ‘their people’ means – kulaks were not Soviet people) sprung out of the WWI and the revolutions that followed.
As for independence, since March 1941 the UK (for example) has been a sort of American aircraft carrier. How independent is that?

‘Their People’ means anyone falling under the sphere of political goverance of the state. Regardless of what the Kulaks considered themselves as being, they became cogs in the wheels of the state. Any murder committed by the ‘Soviets’ after the Bolshiviks took power, were acts committed by the state. The ‘real killing’ took place after the civil war ended. Democide, (murder committed by the state) takes into account all the lives lost through Lenin’s purges, and then Stalin’s. all the political prisoner who died in Soviet Gulags through forced labour/miserable diet to induce a weakened state and invite death.

The list goes on.

The US cannot be blamed for the Russians allowing the Bolshiviks to capture power from the more moderate solicialist coalition…come on. That is a bit too cynical and far reaching assertion.

As for Britian having US bases, since the US has allies not sattelites, the reference to ‘independence’, (supposedly you’re saying that the UK is not ..joke) then is a moot issue.

When all is said and done, totalitarian regimes are responsible for more death and mayhem, throught the murder of their own citizens, than through any world war combined…even including the cold war period.

“And the Americans are celebrating happily because they helped Stalin to enslave half of Europe?”

No, America is celebrating happily because they didnt bend over for Hitler like some countries did…

24.

Yes, sadness. When people start to talk about independence, they change the topic instantly to WWII and go on from there to reminiscence about “Karjalan laulumaat”, “Porkkala” and things like that. And if you spend a while longer talking to the guy, you’ll probably hear something about “herrat” and “hurrit”.

That’s the sadness I’m talking about.

It’s just sad.

27: “There was no other choice”? Do you mean that in order to save the American people you absolutely had to donate tons and tons of goods to the Russians? It sure didn’t do much good for us Europeans.

As for McCarthyism, there was no need to hurt innocent people, the most famous of whom was Chaplin. When a country has such low standards of justice, things like this will eventually happen.

The US, like the rest of the countries, should concentrate on their good qualities, and try to change the rest. Stubbornly protecting the “American way” just because things have been done the same way in the past is not that smart.

And before Mapleleaf or sombody else not liking Finland says I just can’t face the reality

Hey, how do I get thrown into this, and as someone who does not like Finland no less?! I love Finland. When did I ever say I dislike Finland?

I will never contribute to a “What happened in WWI/II …” discussion because I have yet to find “THE history book”. The periods were very complex and each country has its own version in the books. Trying to conclusively argue what happened in WWI/II in an international forum is like trying to conclusively argue which diet works best.

BTW, I think “eat healthy and exercise daily” is pretty solid.

30.

Yes, I definitely meant that Finland isn’t part of Europe and should be viewed as a Soviet state.

Or maybe the thing I was trying to say, was that I view the situation from European viewpoint instead of the Finnish one which neglects all the things which was going on in Central Europe and World in general and emphasize that Finland fought a “separate war”, which was not “in a way, part of World War II”.

I’ve never thought that mapleleaf hates Finland. He has a really annoying, borderline obnoxious, way of criticizing it, but that doesn’t mean that he hates it. People often criticize things they love because they want to see the object of their affections become even better.
How productive or sensible that is is a different story altogether.

No, America is celebrating happily because they didnt bend over for Hitler like some countries did…

But instead bend over for Stalin, who, oh, by the way, was a known mass murder, with propably millions of dead bodies on his consciousess (provided he had one) by the time of bending – unlike Hitler when Finland decided to join his bandwagon.

Don’t you see how you have been indoctrinated? Living in a small country gives you, at least the advantage to know the both sides of the story. The USA, with all its power, can happily keep on telling its own truth even the truth is … well, to put it nicely, a bit wanting.

And weren’t you supposed to be a Canadian? Strange indeed …

Simple isn’t the opposite of smart. It’s the opposite of complicated. The American society favors the simple way of thinking – you know, us and them, that kind of thing. For instance, my friends in the US really do think in simple patterns, whereas my Finnish friends are more philosophical. It’s a fact of life. There is variation, of course, but generally speaking _Americans are a simple people_.

A _simple_ metaphor: If an American wants a more powerful engine, he will increase the displacement. A European will perhaps add a turbocharger, so that the fuel consumption doesn’t get out of hand.

When the cost of fuel is getting too high, the American moves troops to the Arabian Peninsula in order to keep the price of oil down. A European will develop a more efficient engine.

36, G.M: Frankly, I can’t follow your line of argumentation. Are you sure you’re not a moron yourself? I surely sounds that way.

38.

Yeah, USSR joined the Allied forces to wipe out the Axis forces. I think, that this was a good move from United States and Britain. First things first. After all, World War II was followed by the Cold War, which led to the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

The American society favors the simple way of thinking

This is a well known fact and the Amaricans (meaning not the inhabitants of America but the USA) are proud of it … outside such places like Berkeley, of course.

Hey, how do I get thrown into this?

Sorry, I thought that you are aka “perkele”.

43.

OK, let’s go with the generalization that Americans prefer a simple way of thinking. Think that and look what they have accomplished in the field of science, for example. KISS method works pretty well, you have to admit.

Take a look of the Nobel Laureates in Chemistry or Physics, for example;

http://www.nobelpreis.org/english/index.html

Wow, where’s Godwin’s Law when you need it?

46.

Maybe the law doesn’t apply when German, Italian, Japanese or Finnish people talk about Nazis

Although, I have to admit, usually it works pretty damn well.

I think none of the participants came all clean out of WWII, but considering the circumstances, Finland did reasonably OK, although the East-Karelia+camps are stain on the shield. So is the soviet partisans pillaging and raping small villages close to the border. Sure it does not look nice to take sides with Hitler, but what were the options in 1940-1941?

All routes linking Finland to the west were cut when Hitler occupied Denmark and Norway. Soviet Union was exerting pressure on Germany (they were still allies at that time) to have free hands to complete the “2-week cakewalk” to Finland, that they couldn’t finish during the winter war. There was direct Soviet pressure on Finland. For example, finnish airliner en route to Helsinki from Tallinn was shot down in midflight by the soviets, some border guards were captured etc. and that was the peace time after winter war.

I don’t see any moral obligation to let Stalin enter at that time. He had plans to eliminate the army officers and the members of “national guard” (suojeluskunta) consisting significant part of the male population. If the deal was to have your grandpa shot in order to have Stalin’s way securing Leningrad, I wouldn’t buy that.

Finland took the weapons and food from where it could. It was a faustian deal, but the german devil eventually kicked the bucket before cashing-in. The soviet one was cashing-in Baltics for pretty long time.

Think that and look what they have accomplished in the field of science, for example.

Sure. Science is exactly the kind of thing the Americans are good at (and so are the Finns, by the way, according to studies). But you have to understand the difference between science and philosophy. When you’re ready, then come back, you stupid moron (see 14;-)

Wow, I didn’t know 4th of July was about Hitler!

It’s probably best to keep the Finnish day as a solemn occasion, though, otherwise we’ll just be boozing like on all the other holidays.

Godwin’s Law … Maybe the law doesn’t apply when German, Italian, Japanese or Finnish people talk about Nazis

Actually it was you who brought up the Nazis, so you lost the argument?

Anyway, what you are unable to encoutner is the fact that your beloved USA made a pact with Stalin, a dictator that had murdered more people than anybody else ever, and helped him to enslave Europe (excluding certain western parts of the continent).

I just hate people who see the mightiest power and fall in love, sorry, can’t help it.

49.

I understand the difference between science and philosophy. Even philosophy of science. But you’re an idiot if you really try to say, that philosophical questions concerning fields like physics, chemistry and mathematics are for “simple people”.

Is that, what you’re trying to say?

51.

Godwin’s law doesn’t apply.

I’m aware that U.S. allied with USSR during WWII. I wrote just that a while ago in my previous message, mentioning – that it was a smart move from the Allied forces. I think, that Nazis were a bigger threat to Europe than USSR during that time.

What’s your problem?

@Tomi, a remedial history lesson:
Hitler declared war on the US, making co-operation with the Soviets a no-brainer. The consequences this had for say, the Poles (an Allied power right from the beginning), were less important to the US govt than winning the war. The debate on who’s killed most people is a bit pointless and morbid, but I think Mao is the current number one. As for Stalin enslaving Eastern Europe, Hitler got there first.

Silence, especially when you don’t know what you’re talking about,
is supposed to be a Finnish virtue.

TOMI, you are one disgruntled Finn!

But I guess that’s what happens when you spend your life in an emotionally void, depressed state of alcoholic solitude.

Tomi, you are the perfect example of a typical Finn–bitch bitch bitch about what other people have done while taking no responsibility for your own actions.

I find it funny that most Finns think themselves so honorable and loyal, when most are so shy and cowardly it kills me.

Where’s the honor in not being able to look your boss in the eye when you talk to him but still spend the better part of 30 years complaining about how poorly he treats you to co-workers and family?

Where’s the honor in not being able to tell your best friend of 24 years that you love him, unless drunk on cheap vodka at 3:00 in the morning?

Where’s the honor in complaining, year after year, about the rudeness of the people, taxes and weather in your own country, but not having the balls to leave it?

Sisu = BULLSHIT!

So go watch your hollywood movies, wear your nike shoes, drink your coca cola, and bitch about America to someone who gives a shit.

You sad, sad man.

Silence, especially when you don’t know what you’re talking about,
is supposed to be a Finnish virtue.

Try applying the same standards to both Finland and the USA/Soviet Union. If you can’t, well, I can’t help you. (And thanks for the funniest post so far!)

You sad, sad man.

Heh.

Happy Birthday, Phil!

…that it was a smart move from the Allied forces. I think, that Nazis were a bigger threat to Europe than USSR during that time.

Maybe… so why was it evil when Finland used the same strategy? Wasn’t it smart to first fight the USSR, which was a bigger threat to Finland during that time, and then fight the Nazis after that? Wow, how smart, Finland must have planned it all along, like the US! The only problem was, we did it in the wrong order…

Yeah, happy birthday, man.

About 7 months to go!

@Tomi,
I do apply the same standards. I just don’t get off on moral grandstanding. Like the not-so-simple American Noam Chomsky noted, the statement ‘You can’t trust the Soviets’ is true if and only if you follow it with ‘or anybody else’.

Actually DOP is correct about Mao, +70 000 000, Stalin +50 000 000 and Hitler +22 000 000.

When it comes to murder, totalitarian regimes do it with amazing zest and skill.

And as mind numbing as these numbers are, there will still be foolish people telling you that war is the greater risk, and dictators should be reasoned with, when they are proven to be THE GREATEST risk to human life.

DOP, of course ‘Gnome Chumpsky’ would say that, he is a moral relavist if there ever was one, and an intellectual crook to boot.

Nothing makes the ‘Gnome’ feel better than to equate totalitarianist regimes with western democracies, especially the US for which the Gnome slatheringly loathes.

The guy should stick to his linguistic theories (though he’s losing ground in that area as well) and leave international politics and history to the more honest scholars……which he is clearly neither.

@KGS59
I was quoting from (a very bad) memory, not for Chomsky’s authority (irrelevant) but for the refreshing sentiment,
and tried to give credit to its originator. But you’ve already called me cynical.

PS
In assessing the kills of the top three you should note that Hitler was interrupted while the others weren’t.
It’s not his fault he isn’t number one.

I agree with you, about AH, he wasn’t allowed the chance to finnish what he started. As for Chumpsky, your point is well taken, but the Gnome isn’t an authority on squat outside of linguistic theories. As for calling you cynical, I apologize.

Back to the the issue of the way in which denizens of the U.S. celebrate Independence Day, I must say that some ways of celebrating (that I have often seen) are frankly often inane and offensive to my own sensibilities. Parties often turn virulent, with inebriated buffoons making obtuse comments towards any which wet-shirted woman who walks by. So, in a way, I do agree with comments regarding the inanity of–some–ways of celebrating this holiday in the U.S.

In addition, in my opinion, far too many people sport a gleaming eye of what I think is simple-minded patriotism, ignoring the fact that U.S. Independence was a win of self-sovereignty for a (then landowning, male faction of the) colonial people who abused and massacred aboriginal Americans, Africans, and poor “white” indentured-servants.

Having said that, I agree that making generalizations can be a slippery slope… towards misunderstanding. There are a whole hell of a lot of people in the U.S., and people’s modes of thinking range on every aspect of the continuum. I know plenty of people who are intellectually complex (sometimes even unnervingly so) and philosophically minded… and yes, I have met also many “stupid Americans,” as it were. So, I agree that *this* is a complex issue (and I understand why people of other countries feel Americans are stupid, etc., but come on, please give some of us a break! As an amusing side note, I saw a t-shirt company that makes shirts that have a picture of Bush in a circle with a slash through it and which reads below something like, “I’m sorry.” or something to that effect, written in the language of the country to which an U.S. American is to travel to!”)

(And to be clear on my own bias and perspective regarding the above, as I said, my father was from Finland, my maternal/maternal side is Native American, and my maternal/paternal side is German/Celtic–and my grandfather fought for the U.S. in WWII. And, yes, *ha ha*, my parents and I have lived in the Bay Area/Berkeley and I will be studying there. )

Question nr. 10. There were a few male couples at yesterday´s party, among others
Pekka Haavisto (an ex-minister)with his partner, whose (foreign) name was mentioned by the commentator.

I win!

I didn’t bother to read all 70 comments, but I have to wunder, why on earth, does everything have to be done the way it is done in USA? All nations have their own traditions, so does Finland. We are proud of our independence, and therefore we thank the war veterans for their sacrafices. Maybe we simply have some respect for the veterans and those who fought our independence. I think it shows a lot more respect, to light a candle for those who died, than to barbecue and shoot fireworks. If there were people in USA who had fought for your independence, you would show them some gratitude as well, wouldn’t you?…

Personally I like the way we Finns celebrate our independence. I like the calm and serene nature of the event and, like Visitor, I do not understand why we should change that just because other countries do things differently.

I love my country, but the “Everyone else is doing it, we have to, too!” -mentality that still raises its ugly head from time to time in certain circles really touches a nerve with me.

We already have our Vappu and Midsummer for heavy partying. Why is that not enough?

Finnish Independence Day celebrations are really boringly boring militaristic crap. Somebody should tell the party makers that a) Soviet style tank shows are out of fashion (and not even nukes to show around!), b) presidential ball hand shaking is just like watching paint dry and c) watching the Unknown Soldier movie for the Nth time is just a bit too much.

The only thing missing is our Dear Leader announcing “We will crush the enemies of our Fatherland, Long live Finland!”. Come on, are we going to thank the WII veterans in year 2025 too? What about those veterans of real Finnish War (February 1808 to September 1809)?!

Tim73, I’m sure you’d make a really excellent friend. I can imagine it…

- Dude, I already thanked you for saving my life, are you saying I should still be grateful?

or…

- Hey guys, stop talking about that political / philosphical / economist crap! I wanna eat me some hot dogs and watch football!

BTW, in case you didn’t know, it’s perfectly legal to celebrate the independence any way you want – try masturbating on a US flag, if you like. It’s just that the state celebrates it in a dignified way.

” Dude, I already thanked you for saving my life, are you saying I should still be grateful?”

Well, it is always dicey to start thanking people for what they have done in the past before one is even born. They did not save my life and don’t even start that what if-chain of discussion. So WII, Civil War, Finnish War veterans..it is all the same for me and it will be all the same in a couple of decades for future generations. They probably will not give a shit what happened in the 1940′s and that is the way it goes. Life just shamelessly goes on.

So go ahead, light a candle for all of them and don’t forget to sacrifice a lamb for the Roman God of War, Mars. This thinking of “golden” generation is just plain stupid. Each generation had, has and will have their unique set of challenges and some harder, some easier. We might experience all-out nuclear war and radiation fallout, billions dying and suddenly 1940′s would feel like nothing.

“I have to wunder, why on earth, does everything have to be done the way it is done in USA? … We are proud of our independence, and therefore we thank the war veterans for their sacrafices. Maybe we simply have some respect for the veterans and those who fought our independence.”

I do respect our veterans more and more each year. I am proud of those men who fought in the war and women (Lottas) who did everything in the homefront. They are the people who I much thank for everything I have now. Some of them gave their life, some others their health. I respect them and will light two candles to honour our independence as long as I live.

What’s your problem?

My problem, to put it as simply as possible, is that you are wrong. (See my previous posts if it is unclear where exactly you are wrong.)

If you prefer the USA to Finland, that’s your business. Hell, my older son (16 years) wants to move to California. That’s what OC does to to you, I guess;-). Fortunately enough, he’s not as ignorant as you are, though.

Well, check out the big brains on tim73!!! I think your penis ring might be on too tight, it’s affecting your thinking.

Tim73, post 76:

Many of our veterans are still alive, or at least have lived in the 20th century. In the US it’s _very_ common to light a candle for Mr. Jesus, who lived some 2000 years ago. They say he died for our sins (whatever they may be). If there was any logic behind your thinking, only historians would care.

Now who’s stupid? Hint: it’s you.

78.

How is it that I’m wrong?

If I’m wrong, prove me wrong.

Of course, if you don’t want to answer, just be a pissant flamebait. That’s fine with me. Be a coward.

80.

Now isn’t it the Mr. Laughing Out Lound himself.

How a custom of lighting a candle for any reason can be stupid?

How the fuck can one compare lighting a candle for Jesus and Finnish WWII veterans and come to a conclusion, that somehow the other one is more right than the other.

What’s the reasoning behind your infallible and crystal clear logic?

What a genius. I hear Pascal, Erdös and Newton clapping their hands with Gödel. Standing ovations, cheers – finally we have come to a conclusion!

How is it that I’m wrong?

I hope you don’t expect me to tell you where you are wrong all over again. After all, the fact that you don’t know what I’m talking about – or pretend not to know – must mean that you are unable to accept anything that is against your beliefs. Anyway, here we go again, try not to repeat, for example, the strange idea that the USA saved Europe while, at the same time, the Finns have to be ashamed of fighting alongide the Nazis.

And don’t project your identity crisis to other people, please.

83.

Yeah, I read your previous comments. But you didn’t really prove anything.

You just think I’m wrong because I think it was a good move from the Allied forces to join arms with USSR to wipe out the Axis nations, because I feel that Nazis and nationalism in general was a bigger threat to Europe (and World) than USSR during that time.

And by saying this, I’m not defending Stalin in any way. He was definitely a nuisance.

But anyways, how am I wrong in this subject? How can you say, that the Soviets were a greater threat to the Europe – and the World, than Nazis and the Axis nations? You never answered that and now you just try to weasel out from the discussion.

I’m an open person and ready to change my views, if I’m proven wrong.

P.S. I don’t have an identity crisis. You’re the one who brought your kid into this discussion. Watching O.C. and all.

@Tomi
If you’re going to diss the Americans on their history (a pretty pointless thing to do), you should at least get the history straight. The really dark and nasty corners of their history have little or nothing to do with their role in WWII, even if that war gets sentimentalized almost out of recognition in popular media. Now I could easily come up with a list of shameful things in US history as long as your arm, and occasional reflection on those might do them good. But they are hardly alone in this. And everybody is entitled to remember their achievements too. Turning 9/11 into a quasi-holiday is morbid, celebrating July 4th is cool.

G.M, I suggest that you don’t try the “Stalin was a nuisance” argument with, say, Estonians. Sounds a bit lame. Stalin was, after all, not a nuisance, but a mass murderer. Period. Perhaps even worse than Hitler. in any case, he was worse than Hitler till 40-41 (when Finland made the pact with Germany). Now, can you agree on this or do you rather believe the Soviet/American version of the WWII?

And by the way, if a non-American wants to be an American since he was twelve, I’d call that a serious identiy crisis. Apparently you don’t. Fine.

If you’re going to diss the Americans on their history

No, that’s not my intention. In many way the USA is a fine country, certainly better than most.

G.M., the wannabe American (post 82):

I compared the two (Jesus and our veterans), because tim73 argued that nobody cares about our veterans a few decades from now. He even mentioned the era of the Roman Empire. So I proved him wrong. If his own people (I’m assuming he’s American) are still devoted to a con man who lived 2000 years ago, I think it’s pretty safe to say that our great veterans are still remembered even after a few decades have passed.

“I hear Pascal – -” Why is it that these insecure people always have to list the things they know? Perhaps because their arguments are so laughable, they try to divert attention away from them?

So far what i’ve learned from G.M. in this discussion so far:

U.S:
allying itself with a homicidle maniac to spare the lifes of some of its soldiers and to speed the end of WWII is a brilliant move, made out of nessecity because Germany declared a war against them.

Finland:
For the reason of national survival, after being abandoned by everyone else, Finland (out of sheer desperation) crasps on the last straw left for them and allyis itself with a homicidle maniac to stop the hordes of another homicidle maniac.

Why is it that when Finland does the same thing for far greater reasons in a far worse situation with less (no) other options left, its somehow a bad thing?

86.

What the hell are you trying to say. Mass murderer is not a nuisance?

Boy, was I _wrong_ to call Stalin a nuisance. I agree with the fact, that Hitler and Stalin were both shmucks. But I still think that Nazis and nationalism was a greater threat to Europe than Stalin, during that time. Go ahead and call me whatever you want.

You’re just trying to justify Finland’s actions, because you feel that Finland joining Nazis in arms was the only way Finland could remain independent. That still doesn’t make it right, though.

P.S. I don’t think I have an identity crisis _now_ just because I joined SAYL when I was twelve. It’s nice how you’re trying to say that every person should want to live in the same country they were born and share the same thoughts with fellow citizens. If not, they have an identity crisis. This probably comes from a guy, who hasn’t really ever found himself and just gone along with the mass. Society in an individual, instead of individual living in a society.

@G.M. (post 90)
“That still doesn’t make it right, though.”
Am I wrong to interpret this as an invitation to commit suicide rather than do a deal with somebody less than squaky clean?
Shall we discuss some of the allies of choice (insert your favourite 3rd world cleptocrat here) picked by the US in situations where the US was at no risk at all?

“Nazis and nationalism was a greater threat to Europe than Stalin”
It can be argued and has, that the Communists betrayed their ideals while the Nazis just carried theirs out. But by nationalism you of course mean the other guy’s nationalism, not say, the Pledge of Allegiance, or such nationalist leaders as Churchill and de Gaulle.

91:

What the … It sounds as if you understood my point – and stopped patronizing me. A whole new Internet experience!

90:

“What’s up?”

“Oh, Stalin just killed my family”

“Yeah, he’s such a nuisance, isn’t he?”

As for my motives, well, I usually don’t care what dishonest people think. Then again, it’s possible that you are just, well, not too bright… in that case I apologize.

92.

Just keep on bashing. You haven’t proved shit.

91.

Well, I think that there were other options for Finland than join the Nazis in arms and still be independent. Binary thinking in situations like these is just silly.

Tomi fucks little boys in the ass

@G.M. (post 94)
That clarified things a bit, thank you.
But post-Winter War options were quite limited. An alliance with Sweden was a possibility and the Swedes were interested (they were caught between Germany and the Soviets too), but that was vetoed by both Soviet Union and Germany. The British sold us some arms but couldn’t help even Norway (quite a bit closer to Britain than Finland). France was out after 1940. Japan exchanged some intel with us, but no more. The US wasn’t going to do anything, it took Pearl Harbor to get them into WWII (and quite right – it wasn’t their fight before that). Neutrality had been tried in 1939. Stalin wasn’t interested in a deal. That left Hitler, who was interested. So the options were: neutrality (with no-one on our side) and a deal with Hitler (who at least supplied us with arms, ammo and food).

95: Tomi what? Are you insane? Surely you are.

G.M.: But I still think that Nazis and nationalism was a greater threat to Europe than Stalin, during that time.

And Stalin was a greater threat to _Finland_ during that time, so by your logic it was smart to ally with the lesser threat at that time (Hitler)! Could you please finally tell us why binary thinking is OK in considering US actions but not Finland’s actions?

Poland, Checkoslovakia and a few others did mighty fine when they placed their trust in Soviet arms. They especially had a great time after WW2 had ended. You know, party everyday – no worries at all.

What amazes me the most, is the strong black/white-thinking in this line of discussion. The inability to put oneself to other’s shoes and look at things from his perspective. But I guess it’s not as important as having a good virtual wank. Heil Freedom!

Anyway G.M, what options did Finland have besides getting help from zi’Germanz? Wait for David Hasselhoff to arrive and sing Looking for Freedom (after all, that song made the Berlin wall crumble)? Ask Mr. Stalin for a 2-minute time out (Alright Frederik! Go to your room, you rascal!) or perhaps turn around and do the Texas Jig dance like Ashlee Simpson?

As for the independence ‘celebrations’, who gives a flying fuck what people do? I mean, people cook their shit the way best suited to ‘em. If someone gets a kick out of smoking a couple of candles, and the other one can’t get enough of jamming corn down their holes while looking at fireworks… it’s not really as if the other person’s way of celebrating takes anything away from anyone else. Bo-hoo.

‘This job would be great if it wasn’t for the fucking customers.’

98.

[i]And Stalin was a greater threat to _Finland_ during that time, so by your logic it was smart to ally with the lesser threat at that time (Hitler)! Could you please finally tell us why binary thinking is OK in considering US actions but not Finland’s actions?[/i]

Well, if you limit the options to those two. You know, it’s a done deal and that’s that, but I think that there could have been another way than to join arms with Nazis and try to take what was ours – and more, in the continuation war. Say, for example, trying to ally with Sweden and Britain and try to push out Nazis from Norway and go on from there. But as I said, it’s done and done. Hopefully people learned a lesson from WWII in Finland, too. Something else besides “our threat always comes from the east”.

P.S. Choosing a lesser evil isn’t really binary thinking in my view. Polarizing views into a point where you think only options are “freedom” and “total annihilation”, is binary thinking. And what – finally? You should have only asked me earlier

Oh great, WordPress and italic tags.. Anyways, you guys can figure out the quoted part

96.

Well, that’s one way of looking at things. But I think, there were other options. But whatever those might have been, weren’t used and we did what we did.

99.

Nah, I don’t think. I mean, David Hasselhoff has a nice chest and all, but I think MacGyver would have done a better job. But of course this is just pure speculation and might upset Matlock and Columbo, so I think it’s better to leave things as they are.

And about the independence day and all that.

I really don’t care what people do, unless it limits my way of life. And I’m now talking more about culture and the finer things in life (we’re a developed country, so what do you expect), than killing another human being and stuff like that. I’m talking about freedom of religion (burial? president has to go to the church?), taxes (“seuraava maksaa” is ‘funny’ in tv-maksu campaign but not in real life), work/spare-time (why stores can’t stay open on Sunday), “kansanterveys” (what? you don’t drink, smoke or eat pork? are you Swedish or something?) and so forth.

I really feel, that sometimes, not always, but sometimes – like in the case of celebrating of independence – the government is trying to tell you how to live your life (pay tv-maksu and watch the presidential ball and discuss about the dresses and shit) and I just don’t like that. And while we’re on the subject, I think independence day would be a great chance to say to _all_ the citizens a thank you, since no other holiday comes to mind, when the government could say that and really mean it.

@Dolph (post 99)
Poland put its trust in its own arms and the arms of its allies France and Britain. (The Soviet Union was a hostile power in 1939.) They lost over 6 million people, half their territory plus their independence for several decades.
The Czechs surrendered in Munich when they saw that the French and the Brits weren’t about to go to war for them. They got off a lot more lightly than the Poles in terms of people killed and only lost Carpatho-Ukraine which they didn’t want anyway.
Sometimes it’s better to have no allies and no illusions.

@G.M: (post 100)
*ally with Sweden and Britain” – check out how much Britain AND France were able to do for Norway.
Or the plans for intervention in the Winter War – 100 000 troops for all of Northern Scandinavia, was that a serious offer?
Or how much the Brits were actually able to help Greece and Yugoslavia. (Metaxas, who wasn’t an idiot, refused British aid, knowing it would only bring the Germans into the war and make defeat certain.) The Brits were really not in any shape to give serious help to anyone. We’d have got overrun. The Swedes might’ve been liberated from the West. We’d have ended up like Poland, if we were lucky. First the Gestapo and the Einsatzgruppen, then the Smersh and the MGB and the cattle wagons into the East.

G.M. 100
“and more, in the continuation war. Say, for example, trying to ally with Sweden and Britain and try to push out Nazis from Norway and go on from there.”

You mean we should have convinced the brits to change sides and allye themselves against the soviets? How likely do you seriously think that would have been?

You do realise that during the continuation war, the UK had declared war on us, and were supplying arms for soviet troops? I’m just asking, because from the quoted text above, it seems that you think these “options” were still open to us DURING the continuation war.

It was clear during the välirauha (peace between the two wars) that the war was imminent, theres no question about that, and the brits had already sacrified us in the name of the “greater good” (theirs of course )

105.

I don’t think that these “options” were open when the continuation war was going on, but in the time between Winter War and Continuation War. It’s pretty obvious, that once we joined Nazis in arms, we lost that chance to join what became to be the Allied forces.

But this is all off-topic and doesn’t have that much importance to my initial response regarding the differences of celebrating independence in U.S. and Finland.

I don’t think that these “options” were open when the continuation war was going on, but in the time between Winter War and Continuation War.

One minor obstacle before this approach was, of course, that there were no “Allies” during that time. The only “option” Finland had was an allience with Sweden, but that hope was shot down by Stalin. After that, it was either Hitler or Stalin – and it should be obvious to all (apprently excluding GM) that following the example of the Baltic states, choosing Stalin, that is, was at the time out of question.

Anyway, I hope that if anybody is interested in Finland’s choices during the war, please don’t believe GM. He clearly doesn’t know what he is talking about. Rather read what, for example, Wikipedia has to say. Finland’s choices weren’t exactly any better than those of the Western Allies, for example, but, hey, that’s what war does to you.

(And this isn’t actually off topic: the independence day has to do with independece, after all. And that’s what Finland managed to save.)

Tomi,

I know that there were no Allies during that time. That’s why I wrote “what became to be the Allied forces”.

It’s easy to paint yourself into a corner now when you’re talking about things that have _already happened_. It’s like talking how John F. Kennedy had no options but just had to be shot in the head.

Wow! I never thought a comparison between independence days would create quite a discussion. Finland’s and the USA’s national experiences are so very different. You really can’t compare the two. On Memorial Day in the US (last Monday in May) we solemnly honor the war dead from the northern side of our civil war. Many of us whose ancestors fought in that war will mark their crumbling tombstones with American flags. Veterans Day (Nov. 11) honors American veterans of WWI and WWII and is equally solemn. I would guess those are much closer in mood to Finnish Independence Day. So why not have some fun on USA Independence Day?

And also, we do not all celebrate Independence Day like a bunch of stupid morons. Most of us are normal people who spend it in the backyard with family, friends, and neighbors. We may even go to a baseball game or watch one on tv. Most of all we just enjoy the time off work! But then again, I should not be surprised Europeans think poorly of us. President Bush does not help. But you must remember he never won the 2000 election anyway and most Americans can’t stand him either. And please, the cultural trash that is American TV shows and movies hardly represents people in the USA! I am from California. 99 percent of us are not like The OC! It just makes me want to vomit. Just my 2 cents.

The U.S. Independance Day is a birthday party. There is nothing wrong with the way the U.S. celebrates it. The U.S. demographics is the most complex in the world. There’s going to be many different people doing many different ways of celebrating it.

As for Finland aligning themselves up with German under attack from the Soviet Union, what else would you expect? And how could one blame them for saving their country? As a Canadian, you better believe we would of let the Soviet Union in if the U.S. attacked us.

I do think the U.S. has a bad perception of their own military might however. Listening to Americans, you would think they won the war all by themselves. Other countries like Canada also made significant contributions, yet never get mentioned at all. It’s amazing that the U.S. is now paranoid about a dozen terrorist, yet will state they could take over Canada in 10 minutes without getting their hands dirty.

Every country did what they thought they had to do, they all fought, died, survived, loved, laughed, and cried. Two different experiences and backgrounds, two different ways of celebrating a significant holiday. Sure it would be a culture shock, but that doesn’t make one way over the other wrong.

Please tell me if you know how long Chechoslavakia celebrate Christmas for . Thank you

Declaration of Heaven on Earth!
Chant this prayer & we will have heaven on earth:

Dearest, greatest, holiest!
Please give us all, the full heaven on earth!
I thank you, & I worship you.

For more information, please visit http://www.normism.org !

Dear blog moderator please allow this immensely important message as a public service message.
Many thanks in advance!

__ Bab-ul-Janna