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	<title>Comments on: Finnish drug abuse deaths</title>
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	<description>Politics, current events, culture - From Finland &#38; United States</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Alcohol Treatment</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-359945</link>
		<dc:creator>Alcohol Treatment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 03:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-343229</link>
		<dc:creator>http://avegaza.about.vg/acne/</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Preved</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-265362</link>
		<dc:creator>Preved</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 10:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Cash Advance Loan</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-13334</link>
		<dc:creator>Cash Advance Loan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-13334</guid>
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		<title>By: Car Loan</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-13214</link>
		<dc:creator>Car Loan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Auto Loans</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-13144</link>
		<dc:creator>Auto Loans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Fred Fry</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12909</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Fry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12909</guid>
		<description>Hmm,  I would not exactly call drugs illegal in California:

&lt;a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-overdose10oct10,0,3567737.story?coll=la-home-headlines" rel="nofollow"&gt;Boomers' Overdose Deaths Up Markedly&lt;/a&gt;

"Baby boomers are the first generation that is facing a drug and overdose epidemic in their middle age," said John Newmeyer, epidemiologist and drug researcher at the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinics in San Francisco. "They started using drugs recreationally or regularly over 20 years ago, and they aren't really slowing down."

To a degree, it seems overdoses are following the same generation through time. In California, the age at which someone was most likely to die from a drug overdose in 1970 was 22; by 1985, it was 32; and today it is 43, according to calculations by Males, based on state health data.

Many of those who die are hard-core drug users who never quit, even when they reached middle age. 

As such, they are likely to be in poor health, enhancing their overdose risk. 

"..."Using year after year can have a clear and deleterious physical effect. [Drugs] take a toll as people continue to use," said Dr. Karl Sporer, a San Francisco emergency room physician and drug treatment expert. "

"...With age, even occasional users grow more susceptible to medical complications such as strokes, heart attacks and respiratory distress.  "

Interesting article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm,  I would not exactly call drugs illegal in California:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-overdose10oct10,0,3567737.story?coll=la-home-headlines" rel="nofollow">Boomers&#8217; Overdose Deaths Up Markedly</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Baby boomers are the first generation that is facing a drug and overdose epidemic in their middle age,&#8221; said John Newmeyer, epidemiologist and drug researcher at the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinics in San Francisco. &#8220;They started using drugs recreationally or regularly over 20 years ago, and they aren&#8217;t really slowing down.&#8221;</p>
<p>To a degree, it seems overdoses are following the same generation through time. In California, the age at which someone was most likely to die from a drug overdose in 1970 was 22; by 1985, it was 32; and today it is 43, according to calculations by Males, based on state health data.</p>
<p>Many of those who die are hard-core drug users who never quit, even when they reached middle age. </p>
<p>As such, they are likely to be in poor health, enhancing their overdose risk. </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;&#8221;Using year after year can have a clear and deleterious physical effect. [Drugs] take a toll as people continue to use,&#8221; said Dr. Karl Sporer, a San Francisco emergency room physician and drug treatment expert. &#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;With age, even occasional users grow more susceptible to medical complications such as strokes, heart attacks and respiratory distress.  &#8221;</p>
<p>Interesting article.</p>
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		<title>By: Tiedemies</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12894</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiedemies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12894</guid>
		<description>Well, you have to look beyond the numbers to see what is happening here. There wasn't a single OD for BPN, as far as I can tell. I don't know if over the counter sales of BPN would make much sense, but as it stands, you can get pharma-grade BPN for a lot cheaper and safer than heroin, so yes, all in all, Finland is way better off than it would, if BPN was not available from France and Latvia. 

The thing is, many, if not most, of these 88 drug &lt;i&gt;related&lt;/i&gt; deaths would have taken place even without drugs. This is because the expected number of deaths in drug users would not be much less than 88 even if drugs didn't cause any kind of rise in mortality. Your death is put in this category if you are a passenger in a fatal car crash, if you did drugs two weeks before. 

I fail to see the point in Freds rant. Many of these deaths are, by the way, suicides. BPN takes several days to disappear. Chances are, a lot of these deaths are suicides that happen because people are desperate. Desperate, because the prohibitionist hate-mongers prevent them from re-entering a productive life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you have to look beyond the numbers to see what is happening here. There wasn&#8217;t a single OD for BPN, as far as I can tell. I don&#8217;t know if over the counter sales of BPN would make much sense, but as it stands, you can get pharma-grade BPN for a lot cheaper and safer than heroin, so yes, all in all, Finland is way better off than it would, if BPN was not available from France and Latvia. </p>
<p>The thing is, many, if not most, of these 88 drug <i>related</i> deaths would have taken place even without drugs. This is because the expected number of deaths in drug users would not be much less than 88 even if drugs didn&#8217;t cause any kind of rise in mortality. Your death is put in this category if you are a passenger in a fatal car crash, if you did drugs two weeks before. </p>
<p>I fail to see the point in Freds rant. Many of these deaths are, by the way, suicides. BPN takes several days to disappear. Chances are, a lot of these deaths are suicides that happen because people are desperate. Desperate, because the prohibitionist hate-mongers prevent them from re-entering a productive life.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12859</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12859</guid>
		<description>Heroin for all! stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heroin for all! stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12850</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12850</guid>
		<description>So it is a lot of storm about nothing; or it is because young adults will try everything they can get their hands on becasue they have been taught that 'it is all equally bad'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it is a lot of storm about nothing; or it is because young adults will try everything they can get their hands on becasue they have been taught that &#8216;it is all equally bad&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Walter</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12849</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12849</guid>
		<description>"drug related deathsâ€ and "alcohol related deaths";

Isn't it a little bit naive to implicate that these are two different things? Alcohol is a drug too.

88 vs. 1,860 deaths

It seems to me that Finland needs to be educated about drugs, especially students. 

Unbelievable that people are still putting crap like heroin and chemicals on the same page as marihuana.

Death related to pot smoking would mean that one has to smoke so much of the stuff that one would sooner die of lungcancer.

Which is a missing statistics of ANOTHER state sponsored drugs, tabacco/nicotine. Which is a HARD drug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;drug related deathsâ€ and &#8220;alcohol related deaths&#8221;;</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it a little bit naive to implicate that these are two different things? Alcohol is a drug too.</p>
<p>88 vs. 1,860 deaths</p>
<p>It seems to me that Finland needs to be educated about drugs, especially students. </p>
<p>Unbelievable that people are still putting crap like heroin and chemicals on the same page as marihuana.</p>
<p>Death related to pot smoking would mean that one has to smoke so much of the stuff that one would sooner die of lungcancer.</p>
<p>Which is a missing statistics of ANOTHER state sponsored drugs, tabacco/nicotine. Which is a HARD drug.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Fry</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12845</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Fry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12845</guid>
		<description>In a sadly related note:

&lt;a href="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/31/051031173726.k691fy35.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Alcohol-related deaths in Finland jump 20 pct&lt;/a&gt;

"The number of alcohol-related deaths leapt a record 20 percent in Finland last year, comprising one-third of all deaths among men aged 45 to 49, the national statistics agency said."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a sadly related note:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/31/051031173726.k691fy35.html" rel="nofollow">Alcohol-related deaths in Finland jump 20 pct</a></p>
<p>&#8220;The number of alcohol-related deaths leapt a record 20 percent in Finland last year, comprising one-third of all deaths among men aged 45 to 49, the national statistics agency said.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kimmo W</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12843</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimmo W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12843</guid>
		<description>Did STT really say that Subutex (Buprenorphine) is sold over the counter in France and Estonia? What a canard! While it is legally available, I am quite sure that prescriptions are required in both countries. 

Estonia recently adopted a policy of not allowing doctors to prescribe it to foreign residents, and now Finnish addicts take package tours to a border town in Latvia, where an obliging clinic will accommodate them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did STT really say that Subutex (Buprenorphine) is sold over the counter in France and Estonia? What a canard! While it is legally available, I am quite sure that prescriptions are required in both countries. </p>
<p>Estonia recently adopted a policy of not allowing doctors to prescribe it to foreign residents, and now Finnish addicts take package tours to a border town in Latvia, where an obliging clinic will accommodate them.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Fred Fry</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12840</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Fry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12840</guid>
		<description>"The bad thing about it is, that BPN is out there on the streets and being used by people who would not otherwise be doing drugs"

Sure, because it is sold in stores in Tallinn over the counter, so it must be safe, just like the aspirin.

Would making it an over the counter drug in Finland reduce this problem.  If I understood correctly from the last drug thread, that's exactly how you would approach reducing these deaths.

Am I responsible for these deaths too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The bad thing about it is, that BPN is out there on the streets and being used by people who would not otherwise be doing drugs&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure, because it is sold in stores in Tallinn over the counter, so it must be safe, just like the aspirin.</p>
<p>Would making it an over the counter drug in Finland reduce this problem.  If I understood correctly from the last drug thread, that&#8217;s exactly how you would approach reducing these deaths.</p>
<p>Am I responsible for these deaths too?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tiedemies</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/10/31/finnish-drug-abuse-deaths/#comment-12837</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiedemies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/?p=1130#comment-12837</guid>
		<description>Look, these so called "drug related deaths" are bogus. The number - 88 - is only slightly higher than would be the expected value if drugs had a positive impact on mortality. See for yourself: http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20030509IE3

Now, given that people tend to lie in these questionaires, and the obvious drug-related hazards like having to deal with criminals and being subjected to all sorts of humiliation by the society, drug users are surprisingly safe in Finland.

Mind you, that the number is calculated by doing a tox-screen on the deceased and if the qualitative screen is positive, the death is then categorized as "drug death". Young people die mostly by suicide and car accidents, not surprisingly, many of these are labelled "drug deaths" even when drugs had very little or nothing to do with the deaths. This is simply a misrepresentation of facts. 

Buprenorfine ODs don't happen, because per se, that drug basically cannot kill you. It is not toxic and it doesn't have the usual dose-response curve of opiates, instead, it starts to act as an antagonist when you take too much of it. The fact that people are using BPN instead of heroin is, basically, a very good thing. The bad thing about it is, that BPN is out there on the streets and being used by people who would not otherwise be doing drugs. I know a few people that are addicted to this stuff and it's no picnic, I can tell by looking at them. And also, a lot of people are shooting BPN, which is completely retarded, as it has all sorts of stuff like corn starch that clots up your veins. 

And look, detox is one thing, maintenance quite another. Detox means going clean. They don't do that in Finland even for patients that would prefer it. If you go to treatment, they force that stuff on you, sometimes in doses that are bigger than those that you did before getting treatment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, these so called &#8220;drug related deaths&#8221; are bogus. The number - 88 - is only slightly higher than would be the expected value if drugs had a positive impact on mortality. See for yourself: <a href="http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20030509IE3" rel="nofollow">http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20030509IE3</a></p>
<p>Now, given that people tend to lie in these questionaires, and the obvious drug-related hazards like having to deal with criminals and being subjected to all sorts of humiliation by the society, drug users are surprisingly safe in Finland.</p>
<p>Mind you, that the number is calculated by doing a tox-screen on the deceased and if the qualitative screen is positive, the death is then categorized as &#8220;drug death&#8221;. Young people die mostly by suicide and car accidents, not surprisingly, many of these are labelled &#8220;drug deaths&#8221; even when drugs had very little or nothing to do with the deaths. This is simply a misrepresentation of facts. </p>
<p>Buprenorfine ODs don&#8217;t happen, because per se, that drug basically cannot kill you. It is not toxic and it doesn&#8217;t have the usual dose-response curve of opiates, instead, it starts to act as an antagonist when you take too much of it. The fact that people are using BPN instead of heroin is, basically, a very good thing. The bad thing about it is, that BPN is out there on the streets and being used by people who would not otherwise be doing drugs. I know a few people that are addicted to this stuff and it&#8217;s no picnic, I can tell by looking at them. And also, a lot of people are shooting BPN, which is completely retarded, as it has all sorts of stuff like corn starch that clots up your veins. </p>
<p>And look, detox is one thing, maintenance quite another. Detox means going clean. They don&#8217;t do that in Finland even for patients that would prefer it. If you go to treatment, they force that stuff on you, sometimes in doses that are bigger than those that you did before getting treatment!</p>
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