President Halonen did what she does best
Finnish President Tarja Halonen did what she does best - nothing. When asked direct questions about the genocide in Armenia, she avoided them…
Armenian journalists asked the Finnish President if she would publicly recognise the events as an act of genocide. A number of countries, including France, have already done so. Turkey has refused to admit that genocide had taken place, and this refusal is one factor which has helped inflame relations between Armenia and Turkey; their border is closed off, and there are no diplomatic ties between the two countries.
President Halonen avoided a direct response to the questions, saying instead “We are building a common future with Armenia”.
No wonder this woman has such a high approval rating, she never says anything that people can disapprove of! She never takes a stand on anything!!
No wonder this woman has such a high approval rating, she never says anything that people can disapprove of! She never takes a stand on anything!!
Welcome to the world of Finnish foreign policy. Do you seriously think that the others would be any different? Except perhaps Arto Lahti who would destroy relations with Russia with his “Karjala takaisin”-bullshit without gaining a thing.
Comment by Tarja Rosenberg — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 2:51 pm
Haha. Go granny go !
Comment by Kras — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 2:58 pm
Like Tarja Rosenberg said. Welcome to the world of Finnish “let’s all be friends” foreign policy.
Barney the Dinosaur would be proud.
Comment by Anzi — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 3:01 pm
Oh my god!!!
I don’t believe I’m reading this!!!
Finland hasn’t recognized the Armenian genocide YET?!?!?!?
That’s just… I can’t describe it…
Greeks were killed for being Greeks, Jews were killed for being Jewish but these were localized incidents in the major cities of Istanbul and Asia minor the Armenian genocide was like 100 times worst than these and the only one that took place in a national level…
Oh boy, oh boy…
Comment by el Gréco — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 3:46 pm
At this point I think Barney the Dinosaur would do a better job leading Finnish foreign policy than Halonen/Tuomioja. Those two never really moved on from the trenches of Finnish cold war foreign policy. Sure, we’re not bending over for Russia anymore (atleast to not the extent we used to) but the principle is still the same.
Comment by Gonzo — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 3:50 pm
I completely agree with you on Tuomioja. That guy still pisses his pants whenever he even hears Russian spoken.
Our not-so-glorious past of the 1970’s still haunts us and unfortunately this is how that haunting exhibits itself.
Comment by Anzi — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 4:26 pm
Not recognizing the Armenian genocide is a very bad idea. Finland has not done this probably because here are relatively few Armenians. France has a sizable Armenian exile community which explains why the genocide has been recognized there.
The Armenian genocide is such an important event in world history that recognizing the fact is necessary to build a future together. Today’s Turks should accept that whatever their great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents might have done is not their fault. Human evil is a universal quality. Today’s Germans can live with the fact that an older generation of Germans committed a uniquely evil genocide and that is for me the model on which the European view of history should be based on. It’s the same thing with the current generation of Finns not being guilty of anything that happened in 1918. Painful moments in history should be remembered with especial care so that we don’t let them happen ever again.
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 4:47 pm
Well, it is called bloody realpolitik. What would have been exactly gained, if Halonen went on criticizing Turkey? It won’t bring a single armenian back, it won’t make Olli Rehn’s work and negotiations of Turkey’s EU membership any easier. And probably it would be bad for the business and another reason for the corporate elite to view Halonen as an activist and treehugger. Besides, everybody knows already, it was a genocide.
If one has nuclear arsenal and few aircraft carriers, then one probably affords also few lectures on ethics every now and then, but president of a small country needs to choose his/her words more carefully.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 5:08 pm
“Greeks were killed for being Greeks, Jews were killed for being Jewish but these were localized incidents in the major cities of Istanbul and Asia minor the Armenian genocide was like 100 times 2 worst than these and the only one that took place in a national level?”
oh oh….
this is going to be inflamed…
helsinkian and greco on one side, me on the other.
1. Greek were killed because they were greek… Or because they invaded west anatolia after the second world war… (If they were killed 400 years ago, I applause your hypocrisy)..
2. Jews were killed because they were Jews. True.
3. Armenians were killed because they were Armenians.
Fact:
Dates: 1915
Situation: World War One. Ottoman East front is under constant russian attack.
Spark: Ottoman Armenians collaborate with russians.
Now that is what I call a traitor. Or does the “helping the enemy by raiding villages, attacking supply lines, crippling the retreat of the army” has a different name?
Genocide, is killing a race due to its race. It’s not killing or relocating people due to the threat they propose to the whole state’s existence.
You have a traitor, and instead of killing him, you send him over to Syria (location may be wrong, but they were sent south).
1915. War going on. Armenians attacked civilians. And the number of Ottomans directly killed by Armenians is estimated at 2 million. Make that an exxageration, say one million.Now that cannot be called and unprovocative act, huh.. Or do you still prefer to call this kind of behavior innocent?
Every state has a reflexive actions to occurences threatening it sole existence.
What do you expect the ottomans to do, say “here are guns, and food, and horses, so you can continue to kill, and attack…”????
…
People die when they move under war conditions. They even die when they don’t move. And moving them was a humanly act instead of giving traitors, the traitors’ punishment.
On their way, Ottoman citizens attacking the armenians are shot by the OTTOMAN escorts.
…
Its wartime, and armenians did not sit on their asses, let alone helping their goverment. They were armed, and were harming the country.
this is like the wolf getting shot by the farmer going to court.
Both sides killed, both sides died. War is a cruel thing, in the middle there are civilians caught. Yes, Armenians died. Ottomans died too.
And one more thing,
The Ottoman government accused of these incidents, also wanted to stop the Ataturk movement. This movement, is the basis of turkey now.
We shall not and will not and should not pay for deaths of people, how many their number that may be, under war conditions, done by the Ottoman Government, which was the enemy of Turkey itself.
Now,
The total population of Armenians at that time in whole Ottoman Empire is documented to be around 1.2 million, I can give a closer approximation if you want to. And now go check the claims of the Genocide supporteers about the number of deaths.
This is Phil’s blog, and this topic may inflame a discussion. So its my last post on this topic here.
If you want to, you can reach me by email.
Comment by finndistan — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 5:33 pm
Well, it is called bloody realpolitik. What would have been exactly gained, if Halonen went on criticizing Turkey? It won’t bring a single armenian back, it won’t make Olli Rehn’s work and negotiations of Turkey’s EU membership any easier.
Well for one, recognizing the Armenian genocide wouldn’t make Halonen look like a goddamn hypocrite. She has been speaking for human rights throughout her presidency and in my opinion genocide is the worst atrocity against human rights one can imagine. No, it won’t bring a single victim back but atleast it would help putting pressure on the Turkish government to recognize what happened. As for the negotiations with Turkey, they shouldn’t be easy. Turkey has a huge list of issues to sort through before they can become a member state and this is one of them.
And probably it would be bad for the business and another reason for the corporate elite to view Halonen as an activist and treehugger. Besides, everybody knows already, it was a genocide.
Bad for business? Hey Sudan has some oil, maybe we should shut about what’s happening in Darfur so Neste could get great deals on that sweet sweet black nectar.
Everybody knows it’s genocide? Not the Turkish government it seems.
Comment by Gonzo — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 5:34 pm
Everybody knows it’s genocide? Not the Turkish government it seems.
I would like people in this post to come with appropriate sources to call this as a genocide. Genocide is killing people because of their race. (Just what German’s did). Being killed in a war is a completely different thing and blaming a whole nation or the government of it for denying that is just not right.
Greeks were killed for being Greeks
If we are now listing which nation got killed because of its race, I would also add Turks got killed for being Turk, during the first world war by Greeks, and in Cyprus (guess by who again).
Comment by aragorn — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 5:49 pm
The President is just a puppet nowadays. Maybe the current Miss Suomi could always automatically become the new President. They always have something nice to say about healing the world, when asked.
Comment by Eino-Kalevi — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 5:49 pm
Does anybosy remember those times when Ahtisaari was president and Halonen minister of foreign affairs - in those days Halonen was the one who had to take up human rights issues while Ahtisaari concentrated on opening new factories and complaining about journalists who were interested in his travel costs? What happened to Halonen?
No wonder this woman has such a high approval rating, she never says anything that people can disapprove of! She never takes a stand on anything!!
Have you noticed that prime minister Vanhanen’s popularity seems to be based on the same thing? It seems that the grayer you get and the less you say, the better it will go for you if you’re into politics in Finland. We need more action!
Comment by Joonas — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 6:37 pm
The discussions under this topic is strange.
Who cares if Finnish, French or some other country’s politicians says Turks did genocide on Armenians. This topic is for the historian to research not for the politiacians who are after votes.
After WWI British did trial on the Turkish people who are arrested because of the so-called genocide. Not even one reliable evidence of genocide could be found. Ottoman young turk politicians were released. Since then this topic is the only material that keeps Armenians scattered all around the world together.
Europeans must first check what they’ve done before barking to other trees.
If you can not read any objective books, Watch Hotel Rwanda and learn what is genocide. Then think about that famous “human rights”, which humans deserve the rights which don’t under European civilization.
Comment by Kerem Caglar — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 6:47 pm
First about definition of genocide, I understand it as “kansanmurha” i.e. systematic killing of people, women, children and men, who belong to a certain nation, not race. This happened to armenians, right?. The difference to usual warfare? I think it depends on who wins and writes the history and the highest rank and amount of bad apples in the perpetrating army.
“Well for one, recognizing the Armenian genocide wouldn’t make Halonen look like a goddamn hypocrite.”
I think all the politicians are hypocrites, it is just about the burying depth of their closet skeletons. It is about choosing between Halonen’s image and the baseline of the finnish foreign policy. For faraway countries, you can criticize their military junta or apartheid politics your ass off, but as they come closer, the words become more careful, unless they are swedes. Sure, it doesn’t look pretty, but the finnish foreign policy has probably a much bigger effect on ourselves, than it has on the world.
“As for the negotiations with Turkey, they shouldn’t be easy.”
Yes, personally I think, they should take all these questions on table in the negotiations and they probably will, no matter what Tarja Halonen says…
“Bad for business? Hey Sudan has some oil, maybe we should shut about what’s happening in Darfur so Neste could get great deals on that sweet sweet black nectar.”
I’m not in favor of “everything for sale” business ethics either, but I’m pointing out that this line of thought is not strange to finnish corporate elite. In the 80’s we had this kind of crisis, when Outokumpu had business with Pinochet’s Chile. There were discussions, whether some leftist idealist foreign politics should intervene with good business. And everybody was OK with Saddam Hussein, as he contracted finnish companies for his construction projects. I’m just saying, that Halonen’s corporate critics would have put the idealist treehugger record on, had she been more critical to Turkey.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 7:13 pm
This is actually a surprise - I’d expect our UN-fascist president to continue agreeing with “the international community” on issues of human rights.
Comment by Mikko Sandt — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 7:28 pm
Greek were killed because they were greek? Or because they invaded west anatolia after the second world war? (If they were killed 400 years ago, I applause your hypocrisy)…
Actually the Greeks invaded Anatolia in the ’19-’22 and the retaliation caused the Ismyr disaster, and the people that survived the war but weren’t able to flee to the mainland were
sent to labor campsrelocated. That’s 80 years ago not 400 but that’s ancient history right?Well how about 40 years ago?
In ’58 an employ of the Turkish embassy in Salonica (northern Greece) planted a small bomb in the building that was blamed on some local Greek radicals, but by the time the actual bomber admitted the crime the remaining Greeks of Istanbul were deported just for being Greeks… but that’s also ancient history right?
Then again it might not be ancient history… but I don’t care!!!
The Turks (or the Turkish government if you prefer) have a very bad reputation concerning human rights. Why? I don’t know, it could be propaganda it could also be solid facts, I don’t care!!! On the other hand the Finns (or the Finnish government if you prefer) have an outstandingly good reputation concerning human rights and that piece of news up there my friend is just bad publicity for you!!!
And you know why I also don’t care?
Because I come from Corfu (an island in the Ionian islands compound in the Adriatic sea) that was never under Turkish occupation (however we had English, Venetian and Russian occupation up until 1930 (or sth) but that’s irrelevant), so no none of my great great great great great great grandfathers ever fought killed or died by Turkish soldiers, this gives me a rather neutral point of view and you know what? It doesn’t look good, just read the current as well as the upcoming newspapers for the next 10 days and you’ll see what I’m talking about… The EU chancellors as well as the local authorities will keep looking like religious fanatics that don’t like Turks just for being Muslims, and the Turkish will keep looking like stubborn Mediterraneans that are not willing to discuss anything they don’t like… and that just makes us all look bad! Just wait and you’ll see!!!
Comment by el Gréco — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 7:32 pm
It’s certainly interesting to hear the Turkish version of history, and how the Armenian genocide is justified. And I’d let the historians grapple with all the different interpretations.
However, I’d imagine it would be in the interests of Turks in Europe that the Armenian genocide be treated, and condemned, as such, as European Turks today find themselves very much in the same position as the Armenians were back then. Given Europe’s penchant for accommodating genocide in Europe (as recently as the 1990’s), and given the growing hostility to Muslims in general, I’d imagine supporting the side of Armenian Christians would actually be quite politically astute, to speak of nothing about the morality of it.
The intransigence of the Turkish government on this issue speaks of a kind of obstinacy that’s rather immature. The acknowledgement of a nation’s historical shortcomings is one of the hallmarks of liberal democracies, though it usually becomes so practised as to become an art form. It’s pretty clear that the Turks haven’t learned the art form, as of yet.
Comment by Finnpundit — Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 @ 8:09 pm
El Greco,
I was not to write here, but,
“Actually the Greeks invaded Anatolia in the ’19-’22 and the retaliation caused the Ismyr disaster”
What do you expect? Heello invader’s countrymen, wellcome wellcome…
What about the Greek army burning down Izmir, and ravaging villages on their retreat in ‘22? Or is that war?
“Well how about 40 years ago?”
That was not only greeks but non-muslims. That is a shame in the country’s near history, and soon apologies will be said for that. It’s starting.
What about ten years ago, when the turkish minority was surpressed by laws and violence, in northern Greece and Bulgaria? Or was that just an unlucky incident, taking as long as thirty years?
You are not objective, it does not matter if your grandfather fought turks or not, you are in the Greek mentality.
Finnpundit:
“It’s pretty clear that the Turks haven’t learned the art form, as of yet.”
That is a big debate going on right now, that out international politics have failed in this.
But, you cannot expect a country to acknowledge a crime which it ddid not, a country which was one of the few, who opened their doors to the Jewish people during the Nazi regime. Possibly one of the handful in all Europe.
This crime for which no proof can be found it existed.
A preventive action of deportation that existed because of documented treacheries. (DDocuments of Armenians meeting with russians, crypto’s of European ambassadors etc…)
If you are going to blame turkey for protecting itself in a hiumanly manner, first read some objectivee books, based on fact and documents, not some novels taking account of one person.
and maybe the fact that why europe thinks it is a genocide and does not believe in the deportation is that, if any other country was in the Ottomans place, the Armenians would’ve been wiped out without remorse.
Comment by finndistan — Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 @ 10:33 am
you are in the Greek mentality
You found it!!!
You are right and I’m wrong, of course you know better, “I’m in the Greek mentality†so I’m prejudiced, I’m not objective and most likely can’t think straight…
You know what?
Tagging and fitting people you never met before in stereotypes is prejudiced and you just did so…
Comment by el Gr?co — Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 @ 1:21 pm
El Greco,
You were the one mentioning the massacra of invaders as a crime.
Rightly, you mentioned the 1958 incident, a shame on our country.
Failed to mention the turks killed in Cyprus, 1970’s. the children of the turkish mayor shot in a bathtub, pulitzer prize winner picture if I remember right.
And most importantly you failed to mention the turk problem in Greece.
What shall I say.
Naturally you are closer to the Greek side, tell me I am wrong.
If I am acting prejudiced, its just because of the way you wrote, putting Jews, Greks and Armenians into the same pool.
I do not remember Jews attacking German cities, nor do I remember Jews sending a whole organizeed army to take over from Frankfurt to Dresden.
And this resemblance done, is only possible by hearing stories and reading undocumented propaganda books, without wanting to go for the documents.
And the question here is not “Were Armenians killed”. the question is was that a Genocide.
Answers. Armenians were killed. Ottomans were killed. but genocide, that has a strict definition, and the dead ottomans body are proof that the killings were a necessary reflex to protect ones being, rather than a organized race origined ethnic cleansing..
Which, like I said, history has proved what would’ve happened if any other European country would be in the Ottoman Empire’s place.
Thus, my “Greek mind” phrase is not a mindless prejudice, its a simple interpretation of your words.
And possibly I am not fully objective, a lot of pain associated with the issue is on my side too, though I try to base my arguments on facts.
Comment by finndistan — Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 @ 1:42 pm
Children, it’s a thing called diplomacy.
The Germans may have to apologize for all that their grandparents did,
but the Turks don’t. They won their war.
A few years back, when Ahtisaari was president, Finland awarded
some medals to members of the genocidal kleptocracy ruling Indonesia.
That is, leaders of an ongoing genocide, people with fresh blood on their hands every day.
A couple of artists protested and returned their own medals.
Everybody thought they were weirdoes. We’ll do business with anybody.
Always have. A paper mill in East Timor - why not, if the money is good.
Sudan is different: the government there does not really control
the regions with the (potential) oil. If it did, there’d be a stampede
for contracts. And not just by us.
At least we’re not in the habit of financing and arming mass murderers,
like some countries I could name…
@Anzi and others who think we’d be a lot better off if we had had a total breakdown
of all relations with the Soviet Union in the 70’s
(think early 90’s depression,
only a lot worse and much earlier - and that’s if you’re an optimist):
how about trying the same thing with the US right now?
Demanding that Dubya be indicted in the Hague court for
war crimes in Iraq (Fallujah, Abu Ghraib etc.) would be just the thing.
Or we could recognize Taiwan (piss off China) and Chechnya (piss off Russia).
Or start denouncing the death squad regime of Haiti and its foreign backers
(piss off France AND the US, a twofer). The list is endless, really.
Denouncing Sudan is for wussies - what could Sudan do to us?
Comment by You There! — Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 @ 3:20 pm
finndistan, you say that the Armenians were traitors who collaborated with the Russians.
This is exactly how some Lithuanians justified the especially bloody part of the Holocaust that took place in that country when the Germans invaded in 1941. They said the Jews collaborated with the Soviets.
So if some people of a certain nation, even their political leaders choose the other side in a situation of war, does that constitute a justification for killing every single civilian of that nation that you can get in your hands? Genocide is incredibly barbaric. The Nazis had planned the killing of the Jews long beforehand and any justifications they might have found were only convenient excuses to carry out the mass murder they had been dreaming of all along.
What I don’t know about the Armenian genocide is how far in advance it was planned. In that sense I can’t compare it to the Holocaust. But when Hitler was contemplating the Holocaust, he asked the big question: “Who remembers the Armenians?” Maybe far less people would remember them today had the Holocaust not happened and another chapter in the dark history of genocide had not been written.
Comment by Helsinkian — Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 @ 3:28 pm
@Anzi and others who think we’d be a lot better off if we had had a total breakdown
of all relations with the Soviet Union in the 70’s
When did I say that?
Comment by Anzi — Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 @ 5:16 pm
Finndistan, I think as one with Turkish ancestry it’s in your interests to look into the Armenian Holocaust with an open mind. Remember that as recently as 1999 Muslims were rounded up in Kosova, justified as a “preventive action of deportation that existed because of documented treacheries.” The Serbs used the very same logic the Turks use today in justifying the Armenian Holocaust.
Really, it’s no big deal to acknowledge that one’s own country and people have made huge mistakes. Denying those mistakes, though, is a problem, and it certainly is a problem for Turkey today, as it seeks to be more integrated with liberal democracies which regularly savage themselves with self-criticism and guilt, and expect others to do so, too.
A Turk who insists on one single interpretation of history (instead of multiple, equally valid ones, always subject to want and need) is not someone that can be trusted to understand business, which is always about seeing multiple interpretations of the market. It’s that nimbleness of mind that’s essential; there’s nothing like orthodox interpretations to sink an enterprise, especially as they pertain to Turkey’s EU aspirations.
Comment by Finnpundit — Sat, Oct 1st, 2005 @ 3:57 am
Saying nothing is the favorite choice of words for any politician who wants to stay in power. That way you can’t annoy anyone. Then all you need is a PR campaign telling how much you love children, the poor and the weak ones.
Comment by Tero Lehto — Sat, Oct 1st, 2005 @ 4:38 pm
Helsinkian:
As historical documents show, there was a deportation done by the Ottoman side. Mass graves near once existing Ottoman villages were found. Hell, you even have talks (bragging??) of the Armenian leaders of the time that the committed massacres. You do not have a civilian group, but an organized comittee, well documented and archived.
I do not know of the Estonian problem, so cannot comment on that.
Ah,
Comment by finndistan — Mon, Oct 3rd, 2005 @ 9:17 am
pressed the wrong key…
was saying,
Interesting to note that turkey has opened its archives to eligible historians, while Armenia only manages to go around and tell stories. Very successful in that, I have to admit. Armenia’s archive is closed, and any Armenian talking different about the incidents than the goverment, can be prosecuted…
and you call Turkey single minded.
There is a saying, kill the hero, but still repect his honour.
Punish Turkey for something (not their ancestors, as the government who ordered the deportation was against the new republic also) Ottomans did, but listen to the accused side first. You cannot have a discussion if you still havee documents, signed and authentic, from armenian side, and ottoman side, proving there was no cleansing, nor was there a racial reason for any punishment, and you still prefer to believe some stories.
Accusing Turkey and Turks to be one sided, while Armenia is free to ravage the parliaments with their cries, comitting a self defencer as planned murder is not honorable.
And this is what is happening today.
I wrote up there what happened, the documented way, and comments show me that stories are more reliable, I have nothing more to say.
I am talking to a wall, a wall which gives rights to Armenians to strictly hold to their own truths, but wants me to bend my own truth which is based on documents.
Btw:
Ottomans lost the First World War.
Comment by finndistan — Mon, Oct 3rd, 2005 @ 9:25 am
More stuff on the Armenian issue from Der Spiegel:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,353274,00.html
Comment by Helsinkian — Mon, Oct 3rd, 2005 @ 2:25 pm
Just to quote the Spiegel Armenian genocide article on the founder of modern Turkey, Atatürk:
“Surprisingly, Atatürk himself, spoke with such openness about the crimes that his comments could be enough to land him behind bars today. In 1920, in parliament, he condemned the genocide of the Armenians as an ‘abomination of the past’ and pledged to dole out severe punishments to the culprits.”
So those who want to say that the genocide never happened also want the world to forget that Atatürk condemned the genocide.
Comment by Helsinkian — Mon, Oct 3rd, 2005 @ 2:32 pm
OK Anzi,
you didn’t. Straw man argument, five minutes sitting in the corner for me.
Just that this ’70’s Finland was so evil and freeriding’
meme annoys me to distraction. Like we’re so much smarter now.
Halonen gets flack for ‘failure to maintain transatlantic relations’
(not kissing Dubyas ass and preferably jumping in the Iraqi
quagmire with both feet).
IIRC nobody in the 70s actually proposed that we join the Warsaw pact
‘in order to be heard in the decision making process.’
Great Chthulhu save us.
Comment by You There! — Tue, Oct 4th, 2005 @ 10:08 am
Although it a bit late in the discussion thread on 1958 incident in Istanbul,
That’s a shame in Turkish history and the main actors behind it is the Turkish government at that time. If that’ll help after 2 years of the incident they were punished not because of the 1958 incident, after a coup.
One more definition of genocide (taken from wikipedia):
Genocide is the systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status or other particularity.
A little more on turkish side of the history (some of them will be repetion):
Ottoman Empire in at the war. they are fighting with Arabs organized by British, Russian at the northeast, British at the Dardanelles. British provacated the Armenian people at the east in promise of big Armenian land. Some of the start to form military groups (tashnak and another I can not remember), and attack Turkish villages and Turkish army fighting with Russians from south. Turks at the east counter attacks to the Armenian villages. Many many innocent people loosed theit lives from both sides. Government decides to deport Armenians at the east. They DO NOT toush any of the Armenians living on the west land. For any reason if a Ottomans decided kill Armenians systematically, they should have started from Istanbul. because of their special status, they were very rich, powerful people. They were easily reachable. Hell no, Ottoman did not do it. After 900 years of living together, all of a sudden they decided to kill Armenians. Not jews, greeks or any other minority but Armenians. Does it sound weird?
During the deportation, many armenian children were kept by the Turkish people to take after until they return back to their homes. Afetr a while some of the Armenians who survived the travel to Syria returned (a minority). Some of them stayed insyria and most of them moved to US.
Armenians support their claims of genocide with many documents.
One of them is a telegram from the prime minister to the mayor of Van (an eastern land) as far as I remember. This telegram never existed. It is completely false document. The receiveing person on the telegram was not the mayor of Van at that time. He was working on another city. The secret codes used on the telegram never been used by the Ottomans at any time.
They are other false documents introduced by Armenians but I do not want to bore you.
Why would they need to support this incient with such false evidences.
I’d like to give you a report of first Armenian president Katchaznouni presented at Tasnak party congress in bucarest in 1923. This report is taken from russian archives and it is forbidden in Armania. It was removed from Western books.
Before and during the war, we were allies with Russian. We were after the dream of Armenia from the sea to the sea presented to us by the Imperialists. It wa a mistake to form volunteered military groups. Our terror acts were to gain western public opinion.There were mutual Muslim and Armenian slaughter. Turks were more powerful and we did mistake. The deportation during summer and fall of 1915 was the end of Armenia dream promised by the European diplomats. Turks knew what they were doing. Today there is nothing to regret for them. Sevres treaty blinded us. Instead, if we reached an agrement with the Turks, we would have gain much. British provoced nutual massacres. We could not take administrative precautions to gain order in muslim regions, had to take arms, sent armies, destroyed, massacred. Turks acted with the defense instinct. There is nothing to be proud. Let’s not look for guilties other than us. Yes, I propose to commit suicide. Tashnak party has nothing to do anymore. Let’s demolish the party. If we do not take this decision, catastrophe and dishonour is ahead of us.
Comment by Kerem Caglar — Tue, Oct 4th, 2005 @ 12:28 pm
Kerem, when atrocities on the scale of the Armenian genocide happen, there’s bound to be piles of evidence and not every single piece of evidence is going to be 100% accurate. Any murder trial is probably going to include evidence that is not accurate. There’s solid evidence and bad evidence. This is how the industry of holocaust denial works, ignore the solid evidence and saying that hey, something is not right here because one piece of evidence is a hoax. This is how some people say the Holocaust never happened or Pol Pot’s Killing Fields never happened. There’s nothing wrong in defending Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam or the perpetrators of the Armenian genocide. Of course even the worst criminals deserve a fair hearing for their cases and some of the accusations are always bound to be untrue. It’s in everybody’s interests that those claims that are false are proven false. So the debate is always most welcome.
Massacres being mutual is never an excuse, all sides that are guilty of the killing of innocent civilians for purposes of sadistic murder only are to be condemned. Still, if you look at what the Armenians did to the Young Turks or the Jews to the Nazis or the Cambodian Vietnamese community or most Cambodians for that matter to the Khmer Rouge etc. etc. before the genocide, my opinion is that history will judge that the action was pretty lopsided and the bad guys were… Young Turk leadership, Nazi leadership, Khmer Rouge leadership in these three famous cases where holocaust denial definitely has occurred.
So defending the accused and finding facts is ok. At the end of the day, holocaust denial, however, is not an issue of finding new facts that dispute old ones, it is about ignoring most existing facts and concentrating solely on those facts that point in one direction.
Comment by Helsinkian — Wed, Oct 5th, 2005 @ 4:52 pm
And why is it, that the facts poured down by the Armenian Genocide Supporters are taken as the sole truth and the ones given by The Not-Genocide Supporrters even if they stem from your own countrie’s archives are forgotten and not regarded?
The suspect is a suspect until guilt is found.
If you have a suspect and you listen to only one side, namingly the accuser, and not even think of listening to the accused side, telling him “you are guilty anyway”, that judgement is not based on facts, but on beliefs and political agenda.
And this is what is being done. The Turkish people are put into the criminal side without checking objective facts or listening to them.
Russian English German and american state archives are full of documents of an uprising and confessions of ambassadors etc.
not talking about the Turkish archives.
It’s your (our) own archives.
Disregard them, yes. Just disregard them. and we see your objectivity.
Thus, sadly there is outcome in having a discussion with people who think Turkey (Ottomans) won the first world war, or ottomans are guilty for killing invaders, or Ottomans were guilty of defending their country.
Holocaust is a heavy accusition, and requires strict trials.
And these trials cannot be based on nationalistic propaganda, but a thorough examination of documents, cross referencing, etc….
Holocaust is a heavy crime, and no nationality can be condemned just because another says so.
Trials by independent courts is the way to solve this, not judging 70 million grandchildren because of some stories.
P.S.:And there is no comparison to Jews, they were not armed by french guns, going on a killing spree in german villages. Jews are comparable to Bosnians killed due to their religion in the middle of europe, and europe watching.
Comment by finndistan — Tue, Oct 18th, 2005 @ 6:50 pm
Dear Helsinkian,
In my post I tried to give some examples of hoax evidences. I have the list of all evidences to support the genocide claim. And I have fatcs that proves the hoaxity of those.
You repeat saying it was a genocide by putting what happened in 1915 to the same basket with Nazi genocide etc. You’re telling there are pile of evideneces that support it. What are thay? Are you reading only Armenian books? See http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/ for some Turkish side of the story. Read Justin McCarthy for example.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0582256550/104-0514511-7575917?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance
Comment by Kerem Caglar — Tue, Oct 18th, 2005 @ 7:00 pm
you go granny and loose the wardrob and just fight the good fight and suceed in a good, great home live forever and more .
Comment by tia — Sat, Jan 28th, 2006 @ 3:23 am
ha ha ha ha ha ah go granny but your kind of rude to talk in a wierd way but i go to nnoul canyon its the best school in histoy you should go there were do you work grannma .
Comment by tia — Sat, Jan 28th, 2006 @ 3:25 am
I really enjoyed reading your blog.
Comment by Clawfoot Tub Showers — Sun, Jan 29th, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
you do very good in what you do
Comment by cat — Tue, Jan 16th, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
you do very good in what you do
Comment by cat — Tue, Jan 16th, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
Hi Lads,
I am the grandson of a Turk, whose 8 brothers and sisters were killed in front of him by ARMENIANS. In the weak times of Ottoman Empire, till the time when Turkish Republic was founded, Armenians performed an untold genocide on Anatolian Turks because Turks were ecenomically weak in those times due to the end of Grand Ottoman Empire. Hundreds of thousands of Turkish children, women and men were killed during those times one of who was my grandfather’s sisters and brothers who were killed by Armenian in front of his eyes. He was the only one who could escape and who could tell the real side (the other side) of the story.
Before he died he told me that “Russian Soldiers came to our village and told and warned us us that they will not give any harm to us, but in a couple of days Armenians will arrive in the village (their village in city of Erzurum - an eastern city in Turkey)they will not show any mercy as Russians do. Would kill as many Turks as they could..” These are the words of a Russian commander… which came true..
Hunderds of thousands of innocent Turks were killed by the Armenian…And after that, as a natural reaction, Turkish army came to Erzurum and did the same to the Armenians who were killing innocent babies a few dayes before they arrived in Erzurum.
You can see the records of Armenian minority in Turkey and see how rich and how comfortable their lives are.. We have no problems with them..Because I know they are much more different than their poor relations who live in Armenia.
I have an Armenian friend here in Istanbul who is a businessman in Turkey. He was once in Armenia for a holiday hoping to see his own land and people..Get in touch and communicate with his own people.. When he arrived in Armenia, he was about to be lynched by some Armenian bastards just because my friend was born in Turkey and they accused him of having mixed blood…
For your concern..
Yours faithfully.
Onur- A 30 year old man who can give the last drop of his blood anywhere and anytime for Turkey and Turks..
Comment by Turks and Caicos — Mon, Aug 4th, 2008 @ 11:54 pm
Turkey won the war against external invadors (more than one) such as United Kingdom, Italy, Greece, France and internal enemies (greeks and armenians) and founded the Republic of Turkey.. This was the only war of independence in the history of world who could be won against Emperialist countries…As a reminder..Thousands of people are killed in Bosnia, in Kosova in the middle of Europe and all those countries referred to as “Developed, Civilized countries” just sit down and watch the scenery….
Come on lads..Let’s stop joking..Do you know who you are? What’s more..Do you know who we are???
Comment by Turks and Caicos — Tue, Aug 5th, 2008 @ 12:05 am